Author Topic: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race  (Read 190124 times)

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #60 on: 06 June 2018, 20:56:14 »
I like the way you think, but players are effectively Cabinet-level, not national leaders. Things like the Amaris coup(and the SLDF response) are out of player control.

I was working on the tech list - SO page 158 shows improved ferro-aluminum 2350, ferro-carbide 2370, and lamellor ferro-carbide 2615. Weirdly, regular ferro-aluminum is 2571, 200+ years after the improved version, so I may juggle those around a bit. (I'm using historical tech dates as inspiration, not a hard-and-fast list - there's too many short bursts of growth and long droughts for a game like this. Also I want to keep the exact order of tech development a secret to avoid metagaming.)

1.)  Cabinet Level Officers:  Aff.  But things are going to butterly rapidly, unless you want to use the decisions of Our Inscrutable Masters to nudge things back onto the default track.  That might be something to consider now - how far are we willing to wander into AU territory?  If EVERY fleet officer says ‘no first use’ and makes it stick, the Succession Wars look very different...

2.)  Armor and Tech Advance:  IF Ferro-Carbide is already in play, (timeline says yes) then we lose some interesting upteching - because theres only Lamellor Ferro Carbide for an upgrade to go from there.  Depending on how you feel about AUs - you might say that only standard Plate exists at game on.  More tech steps.

3.)  Strat Ops - 158.  I missed that each way several times.  Thank you.

4.)  Hunh.  Tech Advance speeds are crazy fast.  Only 100 years between PPCs and DHS?  I assume anything not listed (AC/5?) are older.
Do we want to make sure the basics (3025 gear) are in play at game on?  Or go strict progression?  Or something else?
« Last Edit: 06 June 2018, 21:03:39 by marcussmythe »

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #61 on: 06 June 2018, 21:02:32 »
Canon says IFA is brand-new at our start date, and FC doesn't exist for a couple decades yet. I may juggle that a bit, depending. There'll be upgrades to be had, don't worry. (Note, for example, that your best small guns at the game start are AC/5s - LRMs, PPCs, LLs, and AC/10s don't yet exist. NPPCs don't exist, naval missiles are lacking for fancy firing options, and as previously discussed we don't have DropShips yet. Heck, mechs are almost a century away.)

Also, note my edit to my previous post - I have a full tech list there(or at least, nearly-full).

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #62 on: 06 June 2018, 21:13:48 »
Yeah.  AC/5 as anti fighter defense.  At least the -fighters- are no better armed.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #63 on: 06 June 2018, 21:23:02 »
4.)  Hunh.  Tech Advance speeds are crazy fast.  Only 100 years between PPCs and DHS?  I assume anything not listed (AC/5?) are older.
Do we want to make sure the basics (3025 gear) are in play at game on?  Or go strict progression?  Or something else?

At game start, the only available mech-scale weapons are AC/2, AC/5 and MG, I think. WarShips have a wider selection, weirdly - all NACs, all NLs, and all standard missiles are available. And TBH, I'm okay with that. It gives us places to go, and because we're not fighting the battles out, the light weapon shortage isn't a huge problem. MGs are your point defence, light ACs for anti-fighter work, and capital missiles on fighter hardpoints for anti-shipping strikes. It's enough to start.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #64 on: 06 June 2018, 21:28:07 »
I can jam with it.

Question:  if I buy say 1000 Generic Fighters in 2550... and never lose them....  do they remain AC/5 armed sad sacks forever?  I suppose since we dont play it out and that scale is generic, it doesnt -matter-

Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #65 on: 07 June 2018, 02:27:22 »
Few points/questions:

1) Just because some piece of tech has been invented by the dirty Terrans, quite likely to be anything between 10-50 years before the rest of us get access to enough of it to do anything with it. The TH (and SLDF) kept a few things to themselves for a LONG time in OTL after all.

2) A thought occurred to me that we aren't necessarily limited to 5 players, we could just keep the Hegemony, and split the rest of the IS evenly between however many players we have, who cook up their own little factions. Would be extra work though of course.

3) Techmanual or TO (forget which one its in) doesn't say anything about it, but were all calibres of NAC available at once, or where they build in bigger sizes slowly over time, like regular ACs? Book just says released this date, same with NLs and the Cap Missiles.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #66 on: 07 June 2018, 08:53:50 »
I can jam with it.

Question:  if I buy say 1000 Generic Fighters in 2550... and never lose them....  do they remain AC/5 armed sad sacks forever?  I suppose since we dont play it out and that scale is generic, it doesnt -matter-

That was basically my thinking. I'm seriously considering not offering different fighter sizes at all, and simply treating them as an undifferentiated mass(or maybe offering basic/advanced when XLFE come on line). Tracking which ones are of which vintage is too much bookkeeping, IMO. We'll just pretend that fighter upgrades come out of the Army's budget ;) .

Few points/questions:

1) Just because some piece of tech has been invented by the dirty Terrans, quite likely to be anything between 10-50 years before the rest of us get access to enough of it to do anything with it. The TH (and SLDF) kept a few things to themselves for a LONG time in OTL after all.

2) A thought occurred to me that we aren't necessarily limited to 5 players, we could just keep the Hegemony, and split the rest of the IS evenly between however many players we have, who cook up their own little factions. Would be extra work though of course.

3) Techmanual or TO (forget which one its in) doesn't say anything about it, but were all calibres of NAC available at once, or where they build in bigger sizes slowly over time, like regular ACs? Book just says released this date, same with NLs and the Cap Missiles.

1) I've factored that in, to some extent. Whoever invents a tech gets to use it for a full decade before anyone else can. That's one turn, but a lot can happen in one of these turns. (It seemed the best and most realistic way to incentivize research)

2) That sounds really painful. I was planning to lean on canon pretty hard to come up with battle scenarios and political developments, and of course most players are more attached to the canon empires than any homebrew ones. Also, we're still at 3 players, so I'm not feeling the pinch yet.

3) I don't have my TO in front of me, but I think they all came out at basically the same time. There may have been a few years in between, but not many, and it was something like 150 years before our start date. Which makes sense, really - historical battleship guns were in a similar size class if you consider their mountings (the triple turret of a Yamato weighed over 3000 tons all-in), and if they were ever considered viable weapons again, they'd be built without too much delay. The slow introduction of ACs on land is probably less realistic, but because that's a part of the universe that we're not focusing on, it doesn't matter so much.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #67 on: 07 June 2018, 09:18:09 »
That was basically my thinking. I'm seriously considering not offering different fighter sizes at all, and simply treating them as an undifferentiated mass(or maybe offering basic/advanced when XLFE come on line). Tracking which ones are of which vintage is too much bookkeeping, IMO. We'll just pretend that fighter upgrades come out of the Army's budget ;) .

Im fine with that.  I'm still going to design the fleet fighters I'm using, all the way down to quirks (will probably budget extra to allow an imbalance of positive quirks).  I'm not asking that anyone else care or do so, but the completest in me compels it. :)

Starfox1701

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #68 on: 07 June 2018, 09:57:15 »
I think that Ferro aluminum is actually back developed from improved Ferro aluminum in the way ppcs come from nppcs because only fighters and drop ships really use ferro aluminum. Warships and jumpships don't use it

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #69 on: 07 June 2018, 11:20:43 »
RE:  Start Date:

Free Worlds League:  2271
Terran Hegemony:  2315
Federated Suns:  2317
Draconis Combine:  2319
Lyran Commonwealth: 2341
Capellan Confederation Founded:  2367

In 2350, all the great powers are fledglings, barring the FWL.  The Capellan Confederation does not yet exist!  :)

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #70 on: 07 June 2018, 11:31:11 »
Im fine with that.  I'm still going to design the fleet fighters I'm using, all the way down to quirks (will probably budget extra to allow an imbalance of positive quirks).  I'm not asking that anyone else care or do so, but the completest in me compels it. :)

Heh. I understand the sentiment, but others should not feel any need to follow in your footsteps.

I think that Ferro aluminum is actually back developed from improved Ferro aluminum in the way ppcs come from nppcs because only fighters and drop ships really use ferro aluminum. Warships and jumpships don't use it

True, but then the names are really strange. Why is it called "improved"?

RE:  Start Date:

Free Worlds League:  2271
Terran Hegemony:  2315
Federated Suns:  2317
Draconis Combine:  2319
Lyran Commonwealth: 2341
Capellan Confederation Founded:  2367

In 2350, all the great powers are fledglings, barring the FWL.  The Capellan Confederation does not yet exist!  :)

True, but they all derive from earlier powers. The Capellan Commonality started in 2310, which itself derives from the Capellan Hegemony in 2270. The Liao player would probably start as the Commonality, and grow rapidly through merger.

Still, it's an interesting point. I didn't realize that the great houses started so late as that - it's easy enough to integrate, but I didn't think of it. I guess this will be part of why your navies are all so new - the nations themselves are quite new.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #71 on: 07 June 2018, 12:16:25 »
Okay, so here's what the powers of the era seem to be like as of 2350:

Terran Hegemony: Powerful, expansionist, fairly stable after McKenna's coup in 2314. Easily the top dog.

Lyran Commonwealth: Newly formed in a three-nation merger. Government still isn't terribly functional, and won't be for a while.

Free Worlds League: Best-established of the big five, fairly stable and well-run.

Capellan Commonality: Fairly small, has corruption problems, not well-regarded by its populace.

Sarna Supremacy: Not much info. Seems generally competent, if small.

Tikonov Grand Union: Falling apart, generally in horrible shape.

Chesterton Trade Federation: Almost no info available, may already be defunct.

Federated Suns: Not much info, seems generally competent.

United Hindu Collective: Small, big believers in armed neutrality.

Draconis Combine: Large, expansionist, currently tied up pacifying Rasalhague.

Principality of Rasalhague: Currently being turned into a puppet state by the Dracs - effectively a guerrilla force, not a nation.

Rim Worlds Republic: Politically shady, but fairly functional as a nation. Busy throwing off their pirate roots and building up educational infrastructure.

Taurian Concordat: Small, fairly effective for its size, not yet known to the universe at large.

(The Outworlds Alliance, Magistracy of Canopus, and Marian Hegemony don't yet exist. I don't know of any other obscure powers not listed here.)
« Last Edit: 07 June 2018, 20:57:18 by Alsadius »

Maingunnery

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #72 on: 07 June 2018, 12:34:21 »

Alsadius, do you want us to send faction preference lists by PM?


Also, I think that the UNIVERSAL TECHNOLOGY ADVANCEMENT TABLE in IO will be quite vital, example:
Primitive Armor  ~2300 (TH) ~2315 (All)
Aerospace Armor  ~2470 (TH) 2470 (All)
Improved Ferro-Aluminum Armor  ~2520 (TH)  3052 (FS/LC)*
Ferro-Carbide Armor  ~2570 (TH)  3055 (LC/DC)*
Lamellor Ferro-Carbide Armor  ~2615 (TH)  3055 (FS/FW/CC)*

So we start with primitive armor and slowly go to standard, but the old houses will have to import the good stuff from the hegemony. The situation was likely a bargaining chip for the formation of the Star League.....
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Starfox1701

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #73 on: 07 June 2018, 12:51:03 »
I don't think anyone should play the Hegemony. Their production capacity is so far above everyone else that they will quickly just crush anyone they choose.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #74 on: 07 June 2018, 12:56:25 »
I don't think anyone should play the Hegemony. Their production capacity is so far above everyone else that they will quickly just crush anyone they choose.

My understanding is we are setting Naval Production and Policy, not national Policy/Warmaking.  So if a player was 'playing' the Terran Hegemony, later Star League, they wouldnt get to go steamroll people, just define how they are using their navy. 

That said, my understanding was that the focus was on the Great Houses, not the superpower or minor powers.  And though RP ripples and the willingness of our soon-to-be-long-suffering staff might let 'extinct' powers survive in this reality, I think the creators intent was aimed at having players play the Five Great Houses.

My thought is to worry about the Hegemony, etc. if we go past 5 people interested. Were at 3.  Are you wanting in, Fox?

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #75 on: 07 June 2018, 13:01:07 »
Alsadius, do you want us to send faction preference lists by PM?

Yes, but not until we have a final player count.

Also, I think that the UNIVERSAL TECHNOLOGY ADVANCEMENT TABLE in IO will be quite vital

Yup, that's good stuff. I'll buy IO for sure. (I've been meaning to do that for a while anyway, tbh)

I don't think anyone should play the Hegemony. Their production capacity is so far above everyone else that they will quickly just crush anyone they choose.

Agreed. They don't span the whole time period if we go post-Amaris, they're far too strong for balance, and they seem better as a GM tool than a player. Marcus' commentary is correct here - I'll think about maybe including the TH if we get a bunch more people, but for now it's not something I have planned.

Starfox1701

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #76 on: 07 June 2018, 13:07:11 »
Good because they had 8 to 10 times the fleet power of everyone else in cannon. If hate to see what a competent player could do with that.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #77 on: 07 June 2018, 13:09:23 »
Good because they had 8 to 10 times the fleet power of everyone else in cannon. If hate to see what a competent player could do with that.

Convince everyone else to invest heavily in border fortifications around the TH and bury their grievances against each other?  >:D

Starfox1701

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #78 on: 07 June 2018, 16:59:41 »
At the start of the star league you could add all the ships in the 5 houses and they would still be out numbered. Earth had a 70 year head start I'm not sure fortifications would be enough.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #79 on: 07 June 2018, 17:08:34 »
At the start of the star league you could add all the ships in the 5 houses and they would still be out numbered. Earth had a 70 year head start I'm not sure fortifications would be enough.

1.)  Historically, we know that the Hegemony/League was the 500LB Gorilla.  So did everyone at the time.  If the Houses are dancing to your Star League Tune, already (and they did), what need to spend blood and treasure conquering them?  They are keeping one another nicely amused bickering among themselves, anyway.

2.)  Even if a player controlled Terra it would not matter.  For this exercise that player controls naval procurement (What to buy), policy, and doctrine.  The player is Lord of the Admiralty, not Lord of the Star League.  He cannot declare war.  He merely designs, prioritizes, cares for, builds, supports, and rebuilds the Navy.  The 1st Lord/1st Prince/Chancellor/Etc., all NPCs, decide if and how and when it is used.  Ergo, no player is taking the Terran Hegemony on a Conquering Spree.


3.)  There is no 3.



truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #80 on: 07 June 2018, 18:45:20 »
Would you allow the Marian Hegemony to assemble a navy?

Then I'll nibble abit...

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marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #81 on: 07 June 2018, 20:15:57 »
What do we want the starting yards sized at?  250?  500?  750?

Looking at Big Ships and their YIS.. focusing on non-Terran (we presume the Hegemony will have more advanced yards)

Winchester - 740kt CA, Taurian Corncordat, 2364
Du Shi Wang - 900kt BB, Duchy of Liao, 2380
Defender - 960kt BC, FedSuns, 2360. 1st Fed Sun Warship

Suggest:  1 Yard handling 1MT.  More smaller.  Some variation based on power - but note the size of vessels being produced by DUCHY of Liao and Taurian Concordiat.

Number of smaller yards TBD by your intended budget and your feel for fleet sizes.  Anticipate that fleets will burgeon early due to cheaper construction, and production will likely slow with the introduction of collars and batteries.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #82 on: 07 June 2018, 20:55:42 »
Would you allow the Marian Hegemony to assemble a navy?

Then I'll nibble abit...

TT

I have no particular objection to someone playing Periphery if they want, but the Hegemony doesn't exist until 2920. Would you take the Taurians in their place? If not, I can give it some thought.

Edit: Actually, if you want the Marians, I can roll with it. I'll just steal plot points from the other Periphery nations to give you content.

What do we want the starting yards sized at?  250?  500?  750?

Looking at Big Ships and their YIS.. focusing on non-Terran (we presume the Hegemony will have more advanced yards)

Winchester - 740kt CA, Taurian Corncordat, 2364
Du Shi Wang - 900kt BB, Duchy of Liao, 2380
Defender - 960kt BC, FedSuns, 2360. 1st Fed Sun Warship

Suggest:  1 Yard handling 1MT.  More smaller.  Some variation based on power - but note the size of vessels being produced by DUCHY of Liao and Taurian Concordiat.

Number of smaller yards TBD by your intended budget and your feel for fleet sizes.  Anticipate that fleets will burgeon early due to cheaper construction, and production will likely slow with the introduction of collars and batteries.

I was thinking that players would get a few, sized in the 250-750 range. If we take the DC as the empire that most has its stuff together right now, perhaps a couple size-3 and three or four size-1, spread across maybe three systems(size 3/1/1 in Luthien, size 3/1 in New Samarkand, and size 1 in Midway, perhaps). You can upgrade to level 4 and build a few million-ton ships if you want to jump right into it, or start a bit slower with a cruiser and an escort design. (We'll say, for simplicity, that upgrades are instant)
« Last Edit: 07 June 2018, 21:37:43 by Alsadius »

Starfox1701

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #83 on: 08 June 2018, 02:29:41 »
1.)  Historically, we know that the Hegemony/League was the 500LB Gorilla.  So did everyone at the time.  If the Houses are dancing to your Star League Tune, already (and they did), what need to spend blood and treasure conquering them?  They are keeping one another nicely amused bickering among themselves, anyway.

2.)  Even if a player controlled Terra it would not matter.  For this exercise that player controls naval procurement (What to buy), policy, and doctrine.  The player is Lord of the Admiralty, not Lord of the Star League.  He cannot declare war.  He merely designs, prioritizes, cares for, builds, supports, and rebuilds the Navy.  The 1st Lord/1st Prince/Chancellor/Etc., all NPCs, decide if and how and when it is used.  Ergo, no player is taking the Terran Hegemony on a Conquering Spree.


3.)  There is no 3.

The point is what every one else spends every 10 years Terra does that every 6 months. They aren't a 500lb gorrila they care a damned lyploradon and everyone else is just a bottle nosed dolphin.

Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #84 on: 08 June 2018, 03:39:21 »
I'd say it's best if the Hegemony stays a GM-controlled tech developer and occasional Act of Herb, to drive plot elements and maybe knock down a player that got a bit too big for his britches, just to show who is still top dog.

"Whats that? You built a 1.5MT monster of a battleship before anyone else has anything half that size, and bankrupted your country doing it? Be a shame if something were to... happen to it..." >:D

Not to be nasty, just for the TH to maintain their supremacy, noone gets to 'Kills it with my Battleships' better than they do after all :P

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #85 on: 08 June 2018, 06:42:56 »
Side topic - Robot units, based on reading too many Bolo/Ship Who X/etc. stories over the years...


Is it just me, or do they spend a -lot- of text in IO for something that boils down to ‘these systems are bad, don’t bother’?

Oh, well.  Back to the future of the past....  :)

Maingunnery

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #86 on: 08 June 2018, 10:41:03 »
What do we want the starting yards sized at?  250?  500?  750?
IO has guidelines for that.
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Starfox1701

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #87 on: 08 June 2018, 12:42:51 »
Side topic - Robot units, based on reading too many Bolo/Ship Who X/etc. stories over the years...


Is it just me, or do they spend a -lot- of text in IO for something that boils down to ‘these systems are bad, don’t bother’?

Oh, well.  Back to the future of the past....  :)

Its not that bad the automated bay systems seam pretty useful and the "Casper 2"system looks achievable maybe but not sure what the prerequisite would be since WoB had access the the SDS Casper info.

IO has guidelines for that.

I would have thought that would be in Campain Operations

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #88 on: 08 June 2018, 12:46:49 »
Its not that bad the automated bay systems seam pretty useful and the "Casper 2"system looks achievable maybe but not sure what the prerequisite would be since WoB had access the the SDS Casper info.

I would have thought that would be in Campain Operations

Theres just this part of my sci-fi fan soul that wants supertech warships to have a ships AI - either in cooperation with a human crew, or CASPAR style - but fully awake/self aware. 

Of course, down that road lies the Dazzling Culture, which is awesome, but not Battletech.

Starfox1701

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #89 on: 08 June 2018, 13:06:00 »
The SDS Casper system is damn close. The Star league was probably 50 years away. From something like that.

 

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