Reason why a mechwarrior would become a pilot

[Alan Grant]

I'm looking for a plausible explanation for why a Clan Trueborn mechwarrior would retrain as an ASF pilot.

We've seen transfers and retraining due to injuries, I can recall a Raven Sukhanov who retrained as a mechwarrior after injuries meant he couldn't sustain high-Gs. I can recall a Wolf-in-Exile Elemental Star Colonel who sustained injuries that meant he couldn't handle the weight of an elemental armor and so he retrained as a mechwarrior.

Could be an injury thing like the above examples. Could be something else.

Thoughts? It's for a story character. I'm really just trying to put a non-Ghost Bear warrior of the mechwarrior phenotype into an ASF cockpit for the remainder of their career.

Semi-related to the first question I'll go ahead and pose a second. We know the Bears offer a second Trial of Position to a different sub-caste. Is that applied only to cadets coming out of the sibko, or do you think they'd apply it to other cases as well, like bondsmen taken from other Clans who are adopted but fail their first ToP. Would they have the opportunity to retrain in a different subcaste and try again? (This this as a separate question, related to the first, but distinctly separate)

Any thoughts appreciated.

[Decoy]

I'm gonna try this. As a Mechwarrior, in a house of Mechwarriors, his opportunity for creating sibkos is nil. As an Aerospace pilot, it may be greater. Especially with the greater chances for Aerospace combat in the Inner sphere.

[Alan Grant]

I'm gonna try this. As a Mechwarrior, in a house of Mechwarriors, his opportunity for creating sibkos is nil. As an Aerospace pilot, it may be greater. Especially with the greater chances for Aerospace combat in the Inner sphere.

It's an interesting thought. I'm just not sure how willing a Clan would be to allow it.

[Colt Ward]

It is hard to imagine a injury that disqualifies a mechwarrior from duty that sends them into a ASF.  VTOL?  maybe Conv Fighter?  Yes.

Second question . . . bondsmen do not go through a Trial of Position when taken as a warrior.  Phelan is the ONLY example and considering they dumped him into sibko training and in part his age . . . as well as being a first Clan book and, meh.  Every single other example we have in fiction, the bondcord gets cut and the new Clan warrior climbs into the cockpit.  Now most of those were older, but they were a mix of Inner Sphere and Clan bondsmen.  Heck, do we ever get hints to his adoption ceremony again?

Off the top of my head, bondsmen turned immediate warriors . . .
Ghost Bear frees his Drac bondsman on Tukayyid, Shrapnel story
Phelan wins the 6th Jaguar Dragoons on Labthea, makes them all abathka & the 6th Wolf Guards before leaving the world- all ranks carry over
Ghost Bear frees a Drac bondsman, pilots a Atlas in a Trial against the Wolves . . . and IIRC, shoots his former bondholder's Kodiak in the back in a swamp?
Ice Hellions taking Falcon bondsmen during Operation Icestorm
Nova Cat Khan taking Trent as a bondsman before Great Refusal trial

[Decoy]

It's an interesting thought. I'm just not sure how willing a Clan would be to allow it.

Much of what one can do in a clan is based in force. If Joe Flyhard undertakes the training and wins a victory in a trial of position, then he has proven his point. Hopefully he excels and proves that his Flyhard genes deserve to be in as many Aerospace sibkos as possible.

[Alan Grant]

Could there be a kind of injury that interferes with a BattleMech neurohelmet (and ergo a mechwarrior's ability to pilot a BattleMech). But would leave that same person perfectly capable of flying a fighter?

[Luciora]

Maybe claustrophobia from being trapped in a sealed mech cockpit for an extended period. 

[Hellraiser]

Could there be a kind of injury that interferes with a BattleMech neurohelmet (and ergo a mechwarrior's ability to pilot a BattleMech). But would leave that same person perfectly capable of flying a fighter?

Yes, I could see that, the Neuro Helmet was an issue that stopped many would be mechwarriors.

Grayson Carlisle lost that ability IIRC.   (He went around in a tank after that but nothing says he couldn't have been a pilot if he was inclined.

And wasn't one of the Ghost Bear Khan a previous Warrior that retrained as Pilot?
 

[Decoy]

That' was because Bjorn Jorgensson flopped as a Mechwarrior. IIRC one of his sibkin purposefully retrained as a pilot after seeing Bjorn's success....but I'm not finding the source atm. Maybe when I unlazy and find where my copy of invading clans is.

[Hellraiser]

I'm gonna try this. As a Mechwarrior, in a house of Mechwarriors, his opportunity for creating sibkos is nil. As an Aerospace pilot, it may be greater. Especially with the greater chances for Aerospace combat in the Inner sphere.

Hmm, I'm not sure that is even allowed, to just 'choose' to retrain.

That said, I'm also not sure how that would work when it comes to Bloodname donations.

He's a Mechwarrior.

Do they just use different Genotypes in the lap when coming up with pairings?

I feel like that would almost be working backwards for any clan but the bears where they don't use the Pilot type.
You'd get a Pilot that wasn't as "Piloty".  Smaller Head/Eyes.  Lower Reflexes.

[wantec]

That' was because Bjorn Jorgensson flopped as a Mechwarrior. IIRC one of his sibkin purposefully retrained as a pilot after seeing Bjorn's success....but I'm not finding the source atm. Maybe when I unlazy and find where my copy of invading clans is.

It's in FM:Warden Clans, pg 90, 140th Strike Cluster, Delta Galaxy, Clan Ghost Bear. The warrior in question is Star Colonel Boris Jorgensson. After witnessing his sbkin (Bjorn) and his success in an aerospace ToP, he "voluntarily resigned his warrior status and tested as an aerospace pilot." He was still in that position as of FM:Warden Clans. As of FM 3085 he was still in command of the cluster, but it had moved to Beta Galaxy.

[Zeruel]

Maybe claustrophobia from being trapped in a sealed mech cockpit for an extended period. 

how would that not also apply to an ASF cockpit?

[Colt Ward]

how would that not also apply to an ASF cockpit?

Depends on the fighter, some are described that way . . . but that is like mech cockpits too- you get stuff like the . . Stinger? which has a cramped cockpit quirk and we have others in fluff that you have room to swing TWO cats.

[Alan Grant]

I don't think that argument works. The potential is there to be sealed up for even longer than in a 'mech cockpit... in space. And you wouldn't know for sure if the issue would be managed by this solution ahead of time. You wouldn't know if that would actually solve the problem. So it becomes a questionable allocation of training time and resources to train someone who may still just have the same problem in cockpit that is a different shape and size. I'd give that what? A less than 50 percent chance of that working?

Honestly, I could see this claustrophobia idea being a deal killer for being a main-line warrior entirely. It's probably a better story justification for a character who gets sent to the infantry (or, depending on the Clan and era, the solahma infantry, at an unusually young age).

If they are still a cadet at the point the claustrophobia is diagnosed, and some attempt to overcome it (not a transfer, overcome the condition via some treatment) doesn't work, I think that would be the end of the warrior training for that person, that's as good a reason as any to relegate a cadet to a lower caste.

So what else?

[Hellraiser]

Is there another Clan that allows Re-training?

Ghostbears we know.

Horses, Spirits, Vipers?     I think these are all just testing down to Tanks/Infantry but not going from Mech to ASF

Accident that causes alpha-wave Neuro helmet issues is obvious reason as we said above, but, would another Clan outside bears allow a re-training.

[Gaiiten]

If I can make an educated guess, the warrior candidates are under an ongoing testing. While the recruit might be supposed to be a Mechwarrior, the testing could be resulted in he does have much more potential as an aerospace pilot than a Mechwarrior.

[wantec]

Bjorn's profile in FM:WC did state that after failing his MechWarrior ToP he was tested and showed aptitude for aerospace training. It doesn't specify how long, but he was given additional training to pilot a fighter and then passed his second ToP with 3 kills.

[Colt Ward]

If they are still a cadet at the point the claustrophobia is diagnosed, and some attempt to overcome it (not a transfer, overcome the condition via some treatment) doesn't work, I think that would be the end of the warrior training for that person, that's as good a reason as any to relegate a cadet to a lower caste.

Was there a Raven pilot who demonstrated space related agoraphobia who was dropped into VTOLs?

[Alan Grant]

I think the neurohelmet injury is an interesting angle. I'd like to verify if that would really do the trick. ASF pilots use something akin to a neurohelmet, don't they?

It could be a very specific issue, something that is debilitating with 'mechs but not with fighters, I'd just like to identify what that would be. Looking for some intelligent language to spell it out.

Mechwarriors can use their neurohelmets to move the 'mech's limbs via thought, I'm not sure if they can do anything like that with fighters. Maybe a disruption of that could cause a mechwarrior to still otherwise be suitable to fly. Mechwarriors also provide a sense of balance for the 'mechs. I'm not sure if there is anything like that with a fighter. Although pilots absolutely do need a good sense of balance, but it might be an issue with the brain to neurohelmet interface.

[Hellraiser]

I think the neurohelmet injury is an interesting angle. I'd like to verify if that would really do the trick. ASF pilots use something akin to a neurohelmet, don't they?

No.

IIRC, the SLDF had a version for their pilots that was going in that direction but it wasn't required.
It was an enhancement, a new technology, IIRC it was described as projecting the 3D environment into the helmet so it made them seem like they were flying w/o the ASF.   More of a VR technology combined w/ HUD.

But not something like the Neuro Helmet what feeds brainwave signals based on the Gyroscope to keep the mech standing which is a purely mech tech item.

[Hellraiser]

If I can make an educated guess, the warrior candidates are under an ongoing testing. While the recruit might be supposed to be a Mechwarrior, the testing could be resulted in he does have much more potential as an aerospace pilot than a Mechwarrior.

That goes against he phenotypes however so I'm not sure I see that happening to decide Front Line assignments.
Ongoing testing does assign failures to different castes & I could see it maybe being a way to get into the Clan MP program.
But its hard to imagine a Pilot suddenly being told they are being moved to the Battle Armor program or vice versa.

[Mecha82]

Thing is if you were born to mechwarrior sibko and successfully went trough trial of position you're mechwarrior, not aerospace pilot or elemental. If you can't be mechwarrior for one reason or other you belong to some lower caste that you're most suitable for.   

[Luciora]

Isn't there pilot to protomech?

That goes against he phenotypes however so I'm not sure I see that happening to decide Front Line assignments.
Ongoing testing does assign failures to different castes & I could see it maybe being a way to get into the Clan MP program.
But its hard to imagine a Pilot suddenly being told they are being moved to the Battle Armor program or vice versa.

[Mecha82]

Protomech pilots are washed out aerospace pilot phenotypes.

[Alan Grant]

Thing is if you were born to mechwarrior sibko and successfully went trough trial of position you're mechwarrior, not aerospace pilot or elemental. If you can't be mechwarrior for one reason or other you belong to some lower caste that you're most suitable for.

To be clear, I don't think it's common. I do think most warriors, if they can't serve anymore in their trained branch, get shifted to something else and they don't have a lot of choice in the matter. They are sent to the solahma, or the navy serving as an officer on a jumpship/dropship/warship or some other role (enclave governor, liason to another caste, etc. a non-combat job). But per my original post we do have a least a couple of canon interesting examples of warriors retraining.

Both examples do happen to be higher ranked bloodnamed warriors, maybe that's the difference.

[Decoy]

I think you guys are underestimating the power of force here. If Joe of the Flyhards comes up and says "I want this block of time on a flight simulator." What are the techs going to do? If they have the authority to say "No", Joe can come back and say, "You and what army?" ....er..."What forces defend the use of this simulator on this block of time?" Basically, if he wants it, he has to fight for it.

[Marveryn]

I think you guys are underestimating the power of force here. If Joe of the Flyhards comes up and says "I want this block of time on a flight simulator." What are the techs going to do? If they have the authority to say "No", Joe can come back and say, "You and what army?" ....er..."What forces defend the use of this simulator on this block of time?" Basically, if he wants it, he has to fight for it.

which tell me for this to work unless it is a clan that allow fail warriors to try other position, the person whould need a sponsor.  Sor like Aidan had when the fail as a mechwarrior and enter by pretending to be someone else.  In this case the person wouldn't need to be more elaborate or dishonest.  He just has to prove that losing the potential recruit without giving him/her a chance would be a waste. He may have to face someone in a circle of equal to prove his point but that the way i would lean.

[Colt Ward]

To be clear, I don't think it's common. I do think most warriors, if they can't serve anymore in their trained branch, get shifted to something else and they don't have a lot of choice in the matter. They are sent to the solahma, or the navy serving as an officer on a jumpship/dropship/warship or some other role (enclave governor, liason to another caste, etc. a non-combat job). But per my original post we do have a least a couple of canon interesting examples of warriors retraining.

Both examples do happen to be higher ranked bloodnamed warriors, maybe that's the difference.

Yes, if they remain warriors they become tank crewmen or infantry.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Head injury that interferes with neurohelmet’s ability to read brainwaves.  Mechwarrior can’t keep mechs upright anymore, so offered a testdown and qualifies as pilot.  I think at least Horses and Bears offer testdowns.  Maybe other Clans.

Their bloodhouse should be one of the “General” ones to help explain the adaptability to new training.  And maybe their old mech was a jumpy, partial-wing design in the first place.

Alternately, they could be an experiment in decanting mechwarriors from an “Aerospace”
bloodhouse, maybe in an aerospace-heavy Clan like the Cobras or Ravens that are low on mechwarriors..  And now they’re reverting to form because of the head injury.  Or maybe just because the experiment in breeding mechwarriors from aerospace stock failed — you guys suck as mechwarriors so we’re retraining you as pilots.

Whatever the path, they will presumably be years behind other aerospace pilots in training and experience, meaning that their already short, limited Clan military career gets shortened even more, which could have implications for risk-taking behavior and the like.

[Hellraiser]

I think you guys are underestimating the power of force here. If Joe of the Flyhards comes up and says "I want this block of time on a flight simulator." What are the techs going to do? If they have the authority to say "No", Joe can come back and say, "You and what army?" ....er..."What forces defend the use of this simulator on this block of time?" Basically, if he wants it, he has to fight for it.

You think its the Tech that tells him no?
Doubtful.
Its the actual ASF pilots sitting around that tell the Mechwarrior to GTHO of their AO & stay in his own lane.
More like he's sneaking down there at Midnight after the place has cleared out for the day.