Author Topic: Modular Basing  (Read 9349 times)

kato

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #30 on: 29 July 2017, 08:47:25 »
Well, if you don't want it overblown and go for the straight-up rules...

Just stat it as a 2-hex, 2-level light hangar containing 3 mobile field base items. 15 crew needed, can tend to three vehicles or mechs. Modifiers +1 for location, but eliminates all planetary conditions. Cost is 55,200 C-Bills for the sealed hangar structure plus 450,000 C-Bills for the MFBs.
However: Construction time 9 days for the building if you only use a team with a vehicle and the later hangar crew.
The hangar structure itself, derived from a command shelter, could be statted to weigh an extra 20 tons for transport.


If you want it a bit more house-ruled, and perhaps make it predate a MFB item, with some penalties involved to offset the eliminated weather penalties?

2-hex, 1-level light hangar allowing a single vehicle up to 30 tons to be stored inside for maintenance as cargo. Add requisite maintenance cycle for readying as a time penalty for using such a structure. Similarly eliminates planetary conditions modifiers but maintains a +2 location modifier. Requires a 5-man minimum crew (better a full tech team). For logistics weighs 10 tons, containerized, and costs 27600 C-Bills. Construction time 2 days, could be lowered to 1 day with more manpower.

For a platoon repair base:
  • use six of the above 10-ton tents
  • outfit one tent with two 5-ton fuel cell power generators plus 18.2 tons of fuel for a week plus reserve
  • outfit one tent with an infantry bay plus storage for 20 tons of food and 5 tons of spare parts.
For full logistics that platoon repair base is then deployable in a set of 12 containers or 120 tons weight, and would require 12 hexes deployed on the ground. Can based on consumables remain in place for two weeks without resupply, can operate its maintenance functionality based on fuel for one week.

Power station needs serious construction time though. Might want to think about different options there too though. Possibly an external power generator pickup setup (5 tons + 2 tons structure) requiring a stationary vehicle to power the tents. That should be doable with 2 days for setup to match the light hangars. Lowers overall requirements to 9 containers / 87 tons, with 5 tents set up in the field.


Highball

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #31 on: 19 August 2017, 15:01:18 »
« Last Edit: 19 August 2017, 15:06:26 by Highball »
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RunandFindOut

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #32 on: 19 August 2017, 18:55:58 »
Since everybody is talking about shotcrete I would like to point out that it isn't uncommon in some places to make a cheap vacation/hunting cabin by making a teepee out of heavy canvas and some trees cut down on site then spraying a layer of structural foam over it.  The ones that want something bearproof spray a layer of shotcrete over the layer of foam.
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Highball

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #33 on: 19 August 2017, 23:47:04 »
That is too much effort with shotcrete. You have to have something to put it on that is strong enough to hold the crete until it cures. you have to lug around all that equipment to spray the concrete, and you have to build the structure to apply the shotcrete too. It is just too labor intensive. I love new system ..... just bring a leaf blower, water and inflate. Then you have a rugged shelter in just 24 hours. And while I am not certain, there are additives you can mix into the water as you fill the bag to cause concrete to cure even faster to 90% or more of full strength in just hours. I cannot see any reason it would not work in this situation either.
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Dmon

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #34 on: 25 August 2017, 06:11:46 »
CGL.. Make us a sourcebook about this kind of thing please.

Then we can take it to HBS and get an RTS game next :-p

kato

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #35 on: 28 October 2017, 09:49:15 »
What sort of things do you think should be available to Houses & mercs for such rapid deployments?  What might be the most common/popular?
Been playing around with that one a bit again.

Modified TRO3026 engineering vehicle : replace "equipment" with three lift hoists. Thus can carry six 10-ton containers as external cargo, and the lift hoists are usable in construction.
For the question "why an engineering vehicle" : "Engineers construct buildings" (TRO3026/3039).  ;)

Each container is a 8' cube that can be disassembled into six wall pieces 8' x 8' in size. Each container weighs 1 ton assembled and contains 9 tons cargo; the walls provide CF5 protection if you set it down like that.

In the field these wall pieces are reassembled to form a nice little rectangular building - in my example below 4.9m high, 9.8m long and 7.3m wide, with a sliding door in the front. Eight container walls form each side wall, six the back wall, twelve are used for the roof and eight are installed in front including four for the sliding doors. For camouflage purposes the building is covered in camo nets.

This building per se only has CF5 as a light hangar as well, since you can't use the walls like that for attaching anything; you could use it to store 15 tons in pallets on the ground - such as pallets of 500 kg in rows along the sides. Using a technique similar to HESCO we reinforce the walls with Earth though, upgrading them into a CF18 medium hangar - now capable of housing the same 54 tons that we brought in nominally.

The earth filling used with that HESCO equivalent is pretty discrete. Note: In all CF applications above I'm using a house rule in which the weight required in base construction materials for a building, not including special equipment, conforms to ( CF * 2.1% * housed_load ) rounded up to the next half ton. That house rule works very nicely with both real-life examples (e.g. containers, houses, even bridges) and Battletech itself (Collapsible Command Shelter).

Equipment used:
Code: [Select]
- Container Sides                  :  6,000 kg
- HESCO system weight              :    100 kg
- Crane equivalent for sliding door:  3,000 kg
- Cover Netting                    :     50 kg
- A-Frames and Reinforcers         :    850 kg
- Earth filling                    : 14,500 kg
- Net Cargo                        : 50,000 kg

Below i've used cargo movement rules under SO with multiple detail steps to install this building - it comes out at 8 hours, which while not conforming to CO presents a nice round figure (one maintenance cycle = one day work) for Battletech:
Code: [Select]
--------------------------------------------------------------
Site Survey/Preparation : (Notional)            ->  15 minutes (note: equivalent to a dug-out)
(Step Survey)           : (Notional)            ->   1 minutes [Preparation          :  16 minutes]
--------------------------------------------------------------
Unloading Containers    : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->  75 minutes
Unpacking Cargo         : Manual  (0.8t/minute) ->  68 minutes (note: includes sorting equipment)
Disassembling Containers: Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->  30 minutes
(Step Survey)           : (Notional)            ->   1 minutes [Readying Equipment   : 174 minutes]
--------------------------------------------------------------
(Placing Parts)         : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->   2 minutes
A-Frame Assembly        : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->   5 minutes
A-Frame Erection        : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->   4 minutes
(Step Survey)           : (Notional)            ->   1 minutes [Installing Frame     :  12 minutes]
--------------------------------------------------------------
(Placing Parts)         : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->   6 minutes
Roof Assembly           : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->  11 minutes
Roof Mounting           : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->   3 minutes
Wall Assembly           : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->  20 minutes
Wall Erection           : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->   5 minutes
Wall/Roof Connection    : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->   3 minutes
(Step Survey)           : (Notional)            ->   1 minutes [Installing Roof/Sides:  49 minutes]
--------------------------------------------------------------
(Placing Parts)         : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->   1 minutes
HESCO Assembly          : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->   1 minutes
Earth Filling           : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->  73 minutes
Earth Movement          : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->  19 minutes
Connection Exterior     : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->  19 minutes
Connection Interior     : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->  19 minutes
(Step Survey)           : (Notional)            ->   1 minutes [Erecting HESCO Walls : 133 minutes]
--------------------------------------------------------------
(Placing Parts)         : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->   5 minutes
Front Assembly          : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->   2 minutes
Door Pre-Installation   : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->  15 minutes
Door Assembly           : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->   2 minutes
Front Erection          : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->   1 minutes
Door Installation       : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->   1 minutes
Front/Roof Connection   : Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->   1 minutes
(Step Survey)           : (Notional)            ->   1 minutes [Installing Front     :  28 minutes]
--------------------------------------------------------------
Installing Cover Netting: Manual  (0.2t/minute) ->   4 minutes
Placing Cargo Inside    : Vehicle (0.8t/minute) ->  63 minutes
(Step Survey)           : (Notional)            ->   1 minutes [Finalizing           :  68 minutes]
--------------------------------------------------------------
Under CO rules the same building would take a week to build with a single squad of combat engineers and a vehicle - let's assume they would cast it in concrete instead then with more permanence in mind.


Now, what can we use that for - reasonably, if we include concerns beyond just tonnage:
  • a light vehicle bay (equipment goes on the side walls, center we'd have a nice hangar space for a light vehicle) + spare parts/fuel
  • six mechanized infantry bays (six vehicles should fit in those 70m² on the ground - and bay-grade housing for the 42 infantry should fit in a space above that) + supplies for 3 days
  • ten steerage quarters (each a 10m² room plus some common areas...) + supplies for almost 3 months
  • cargo storage (72 Euro pallets of 750 kg each on the ground, exactly halfway between the minimum and maximum load for each pallet...)
Replace supplies and such with a power generator of your choice if you want to, although that'd have to come completely separate.

FedRatCowboy

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #36 on: 04 November 2017, 03:38:41 »
Instead of generators that use fuel, do you think that solar panels and batteries would be as effective?
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kato

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #37 on: 04 November 2017, 06:53:57 »
Liquid ICE generators almost never make sense from their logistics, unless that's about the only thing you can get. Even solid fuel ICE generators are usually more effective if you have a supply for that on-site.

Solar panels in my opinion are effective mostly as a distributed power system for individual buildings that have the 3 tons for a minimum installation for their own use available and don't need their rooftops.

Logistics-wise, the optimum power generator building combines a fusion plant as small as possible with fuel cell generators and a small hydrogen tank, provided you have a water supply on-site (for fluff: even a small creek is sufficient, you need a flow rate of 6.25 l/s). Even a 1-ton fusion generator ideally produces 60 tons of hydrogen per day from that water, which can be used with sufficiently-sized FC generators to supply 50 hexes of buildings for free. The combination beyond a certain minimum size has a typically lower set-up time than a pure fusion generator and lower cost. Probably not quite rules-legal.

grimlock1

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #38 on: 11 November 2017, 22:01:46 »
Sweden uses these as aircraft hangars for deploying distributed bases:



Supposedly they fit in a 20' container and can be erected by three men without any mechanical assistance systems according to the manufacturer.
Fits in a 20' conex.  I believe that.
Can be assembled by 3 people without construction equipment. I buy that.

Can be put BACK into the conex box by anyone other than a magician or 8th Degree Origami master?  I call buffalo chips!

Those tent things that people have posted pictures off? I want stats, a great way to avoid weather penalties for repairs to every thing but 'Mechs and DS
  Why wouldn't you be able to have on the size of a mech?


As far as ease of assembly, do recall that we are talking about a universe with myomers.  The arch in a quonset type structure would be make of a series of hollow, interlocking segments with a myomer running  through the the middle. Apply voltage, the myomer tightens up, pulls the ends of the segments together, self centering joints make sure everybody is lined up properly and viola, a structural arch.  The joints could either include a self locking mechanism or wait for someone to come along and tighten some bolts. Once that's done, turn off the electricity, and move on to the next section.
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SCC

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #39 on: 12 November 2017, 00:08:52 »
Liquid ICE generators almost never make sense from their logistics, unless that's about the only thing you can get. Even solid fuel ICE generators are usually more effective if you have a supply for that on-site.
Are you talking BT or RL?

Why wouldn't you be able to have on the size of a mech?
Too likely to blow over.

kato

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #40 on: 12 November 2017, 07:50:23 »
Are you talking BT or RL?
BT.

The fuel requirements are prohibitive for fossil fuel if you take logistics into account. For a forward base you have to consider that you have to bring in every ton of fuel - and while fuel needs are low (on the scale of 1-2 tons per day per 5 hexes supplied) once you get into sustaining that forward base for just a few weeks you're quickly talking the equivalent of a battlemech in weight. It's fine if you can abstract BT-wise in that you're simply buying that fuel from a civilian contractor who ships it all the way to where it's needed, magically filling up your fuel tanks for just some money every week or so, but depending on scenario this often simply isn't a viable option.

Solid fuel ICE can be a more realistic option if you have vegetation on-site and can detail a team to cut down and move some trees into your depot. One can then quite simply cut down the logistics required to sustain operations to the supplies for that tree-cutting team.

grimlock1

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #41 on: 12 November 2017, 20:37:22 »
And while I am not certain, there are additives you can mix into the water as you fill the bag to cause concrete to cure even faster to 90% or more of full strength in just hours. I cannot see any reason it would not work in this situation either.
 
Surprisingly enough, sugar. Adding sugar to concrete will make it set faster. I'm not sure how much faster.  And adding table salt will slow the setting process without affecting strength.
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Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

mbear

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #42 on: 14 November 2017, 10:17:41 »
As far as ease of assembly, do recall that we are talking about a universe with myomers.  The arch in a quonset type structure would be make of a series of hollow, interlocking segments with a myomer running  through the the middle. Apply voltage, the myomer tightens up, pulls the ends of the segments together, self centering joints make sure everybody is lined up properly and viola, a structural arch.  The joints could either include a self locking mechanism or wait for someone to come along and tighten some bolts. Once that's done, turn off the electricity, and move on to the next section.

Or you could set up a solar panel to collect enough electricity to keep the myomer constantly powered. *shrug*
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kato

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #43 on: 14 November 2017, 16:02:34 »
Adding sugar to concrete will make it set faster.
Sugar acts as a ****** in concrete, to the point where it can keep concrete from setting at all.

The traditional accelerator for concrete is calcium chloride, although that will corrode your reinforcement bars and interestingly is even outlawed in some countries for that reason.

grimlock1

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #44 on: 14 November 2017, 17:44:19 »
Or you could set up a solar panel to collect enough electricity to keep the myomer constantly powered. *shrug*
True but something about a building that requires power just to stay up bothers me on a deep visceral level.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

mbear

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #45 on: 15 November 2017, 16:39:50 »
True but something about a building that requires power just to stay up bothers me on a deep visceral level.

I was thinking it would be more of a reinforcement system for the spans you suggested, but I see your point. Maybe we should equip the building with HarJel.
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

grimlock1

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Re: Modular Basing
« Reply #46 on: 15 November 2017, 17:23:32 »
I was thinking it would be more of a reinforcement system for the spans you suggested, but I see your point. Maybe we should equip the building with HarJel.
What about a hybrid system of inflatable structural members, with a fiber mesh inside the air chambers, that you then fill with expanding foam.  Pump the cavities full of air to expand them and erect the structure.  Then inject the expanding foam.  As the foam expands, it forces the air out through a relief valve. 

Trying to inflate directly with the foam could be dicey, at least in real life.  If something goes wrong, you have expanding foam spraying out, and that's never a good day.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.