Author Topic: Flechs Sheets (Digital Record Sheets)  (Read 72000 times)

grimlock1

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #30 on: 15 April 2019, 09:39:37 »

Yea, I've been dragging my feet on that for a few reasons, but I think I'll change it soon to match the weapons behavior.

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You've already made a voodoo doll with my name on it, haven't you?  That's why my back hurt this morning, isn't it?

May I ask what makes this particular fix seem onerous?

The CASE issue is fixed! Crit as many ammo bins as you want!

(In either case, if the issues persists, just try an extra refresh or clearing the browser's cache.)

Is there a way to force a crit?


It took me a while to realize the little pencil next to a mech name means that it can display and print but isn't dynamic.  The message the pops up for say the Ronin SA-RN says "Claws: Print Only".  I thought that meant that only the claws wouldn't work.  Maybe expand the error text to say, "Unsupported features, Claws.  Dynamic features are disabled."
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Bedwyr

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #31 on: 15 April 2019, 09:41:37 »
Bartok and Bedwyr,

I've pushed an update that fixes the issue you experienced running uBlock. Things should work normally now even with it running! Thanks again for noting the issue!

Working great.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #32 on: 15 April 2019, 09:49:13 »
Thanks for taking a look on different devices and for the kind words  :).

FWIW A primary goal is to make sure that a single person can use Flechs Sheets alongside other players with paper sheets while still enjoying numerous benefits.

So I've tried this out on PC, iPad mini, and iPhone so far. It's good. Like, really good. The UX is very thoughtfully designed and makes a lot of sense. The remaining obstacle to making this a near automatic tabletop tool is probably the phone vs. tablet use case. Tablet is obviously optimal. However, the one device my guests and players are near guaranteed to have is a phone.

I agree 110% that accommodating phone-sized screens would lead to many more people using the system (and I can speak from experience on how that accommodation has significant impact on usage). I also think it would be super rad to just pull at a phone and start tossing missiles back and forth!

Unfortunately, that is not likely to happen anytime soon  :(. The short is that the smaller interface introduces non-trivial design problems that I am just not up for tackling at this time*. Mainly because my personal/primary interests in this project are the problems entailed by incorporating a digital component (with imperfect game-state information) into 'analog' game-play*. Because these problems exist no matter the screen-size, I'm copping-out on small-screen challenges in order to tackle this other set of complications (first).

Happily, part of this problem space means making sure that one person with a tablet can play with people using paper while still enjoy things like automatic shot resolution, heat tracking, ammo use, PSR calculation etc., even if attack damage application between sheets can't be automated. (As a bonus, this approach also creates some allowances for players to include optional rules in their gameplay (e.g. disengaging PPC field inhibitors) that may never find their way into the software.)

I'm not familiar with Hero Lab so I'll have to give it a look!


* If people have interest in these kinds of thing I can talk about them at length.
« Last Edit: 15 April 2019, 10:03:17 by Bison AIs »

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #33 on: 15 April 2019, 09:54:00 »
I'm interested in this, but am stuck at the cap of 3067, as I'm in 3078 territory :(

Any plans to bring further up in the time line?

Good news, previous updates brought support up through 3130's; Markability is dependent on equipment instead of era (see here: https://sheets.flechs.net/equipmentLimitations.html)

(I updated the original post to clarify.)
« Last Edit: 11 August 2019, 13:49:19 by Bison AIs »

NeonKnight

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #34 on: 15 April 2019, 09:59:17 »
Well then...now I WILL check it out :D
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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #35 on: 15 April 2019, 09:59:49 »
May I ask what makes this particular fix seem onerous?

Nothing really; Just that sometimes things like *broke rendering for split components* come up. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Is there a way to force a crit?

Yes!
(1) Touch the critical hit table header, drag to the slot you'd like to crit, release.
(2) !KERCRUNCH!
(3) Optional: Undo the crit through the same process.

Just in case, the how-to videos are here:  https://sheets.flechs.net/tutorials.html
(Some of the visuals may be a little different but all the functionality should be the same.)


It took me a while to realize the little pencil next to a mech name means that it can display and print but isn't dynamic.  The message the pops up for say the Ronin SA-RN says "Claws: Print Only".  I thought that meant that only the claws wouldn't work.  Maybe expand the error text to say, "Unsupported features, Claws.  Dynamic features are disabled."

Roger. Thanks!
« Last Edit: 11 August 2019, 13:49:38 by Bison AIs »

Bedwyr

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #36 on: 15 April 2019, 10:01:36 »
Would you be willing to spitball potential phone design solutions for posterity in case someone else was interested in trying to solve the problem? I'd find it delightful to chew over possible UX solutions even if they're not going to find application in reality.
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Bison AIs

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #37 on: 15 April 2019, 13:14:32 »
Would you be willing to spitball potential phone design solutions for posterity in case someone else was interested in trying to solve the problem? I'd find it delightful to chew over possible UX solutions even if they're not going to find application in reality.

First, at least one phone-based solution exists (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ca.coffeeshopstudio.meksheets), though I haven't spent time with it. If I were going to do a small-screen solution I'd start by trying that out for sure. Any experience with it could easily invalidate any or all of my following thoughts.

Really though, absent trying that out, any of my thoughts are probably worth less than 2 cents. But a few thoughts did come to mind when I was considering small-screen support.

The problems flow from the main goal and there's a few similar looking goals, so it's important to be clear on what we're really doing. In my case it's to create a 'digital' record sheet that functions ~comparatively~ well as paper record sheet, with an eye towards newer players, while being imminently useful for experienced players. (And it has to look good©).

But this is vague. We need to be more specific about what people are -doing- with these pieces of paper—what the activity is. BT players do things like looking for information in order to make decisions and to know what game-allowed actions they can take, making game meaningful marks (e.g. filling in bubbles), making game _related_ marks (e.g. jotting down target numbers, marking PSR's that need to happen later), making extra-game adjustments (that damage was actually supposed to be on the left side...), and some things that are in-between like marking what their heat will be, later, at the end of the round, and then adjusting as damage necessitates. (These often connect with player-table and player-player interactions, but let's bracket that off for now, aside from noting that players will be playing together opposed to playing alone-together, which could make a difference for things like sharing unit information or the overall posture people take towards one another (e.g friendly vs competitive).)

Current paper record sheets are _really_ great for a lot of this. (Which shouldn't be surprising because the game-play activity was itself essentially designed around using pieces of paper!)

Perhaps most importantly, record-sheets provide an immediate high-level organized view of every detail of every system at the blink of an eye. For example, a Wolverien's right torso has no armor, one slot of ammo with 6 rounds, and no CASE, meaning: Danger Will Robinson! The solution even scales some; Multiple pages on a table can provide information for about a lance-ish worth of units at once-ish. In the case of larger forces, 'accessing' relevant info is as intuitive as flipping pages on a clipboard. Moreover, as a rule of thumb, clear/strong spatial arrangements seem to help people digest and recall information more easily; pretty handy when you're dealing with a lot of granular information.

The moment any of this information is hidden (i.e. off screeen) the designer needs (1) an information navigation solution that involves moving hands (2) design solutions for showing the right amount of the right information at the right time (which itself entails new visual information-design problems) (3) technical solutions for wedding the phone-sized and tablet-sized presentations into the same presntation logic. (Any one of these prompt a reflexive 'nope' from me, but maybe not a fully thought-out one.)

It's important to note that any solution for (1) will be slower and than eyeballs and so (2) is going to have to be really smart to avoid even the sense of 'getting in the way'. Here's an example of what I mean by 'a sense of getting in the way': Automatically resolving an assault mech's worth of attacks is _really_ fast compared to doing it with dice, even for an experienced player with all the charts memorized. But inputing target numbers is literally extra work and creates up-front lag. So an experienced player with dice can calculate numbers in their head and get to 'shooting' faster even if they don't finish faster, which can make the digital version feel a little cumbersome or regressive. (Which isn't to say it's not impossible to mitigate, it's just one specific challenge of this kind.) There are also some inescapable issues, like how any digital RS system will only ever have imperfect game-state information. Some details, like range and attack direction will be trapped on the board and need additional UI for humans to play data-bridge. (I have looked into AR tracking, but the tolerances aren't tight enough for 1/285 scale, and yes larger figures would be a super cool way around this if you want to send me some to experiment with!) Not that this is a deal-breaker, it just means there's lots of places where little bits of interface cruft can accumulate, so each bit has to be carefully treated otherwise you could end up with a record sheet interface instead of a record sheet. And every bit of added navigation can add bits of cruft.

Paper record sheets are also extremely extendable, which may be worth noting because this is the game with hundreds of pages of optional rules after all. Hot loading LRM's, just write "hot loaded". Bin of inferno rounds? Just write it down. Coolant failure, just cross off a heat sink dot. Rapid fire machine guns? No changes at all! That's really hard to compete with. And if you want to, implementing all the rules is a pretty rough way to go—the alternative is to make your digital sheet pliable—modifiable in ways that aren't just rule automations... Of course if the core goal is to be 'rule police' of a tournament setting, maybe this doesn't matter.

Now, I totally admit that just tabbing out unit systems (meta/armor/internal/crits/heat/inventory) ~might~ provide ~most~ of the navigation needed, and ~relatively~ quickly. (And this is what Coffee Shop Studio's Mech Sheets seems to do.) I smell some peculiar challenges lurking around complex system interactions: things like a shot going internal, blowing off a limb that contains two heat sinks and causing a heat spike that will induce an ammo explosion roll later in the round. (My poor Battlemaster last weekend!) But, who knows, with a few tab-badges and a tight alert system... maybe no big deal?
« Last Edit: 15 April 2019, 23:39:18 by Bison AIs »

Bison AIs

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #38 on: 15 April 2019, 13:37:45 »
Ok. Thought-dump clamped.

Bedwyr

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #39 on: 15 April 2019, 14:43:15 »
I'll ponder and respond/add to it as soon as I'm able.
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Bedwyr

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #40 on: 15 April 2019, 21:08:01 »
Home now.

Yeah, that's really well thought out; I was picking out similar concepts and agree with your analysis for the most part, especially the interface design weaknesses in getting around eye-to-paper scanning limits in problem (1). I feel like UI designers have had a good long while to think about how interfacing with a phone should work and have solved most of these problems. As I think about that from my limited lay perspective, most of the solutions seem to be "don't solve the same problem". That is, most browser and app experiences are designed to solve sub-problems for the user on the go and that fit the form of your normal vertically oriented phone rather than replicating a larger screen experience.

Examples: Airline apps are divided into discrete functional modes that most passengers are going to need quickly. Same with store apps (Target, Amazon, etc), getting the visuals and the price of a product front-and-center where the PC browser would be organizing a lot more detailed information and options along with more comparative functionality like getting back to your cart or seeing related products.

So maybe the correct answer is "don't try to solve the problem" or at least not try to replicate the record sheet experience. The successful phone app or browser page would nearly always be about replicating the essential function of the sheet vs. the appearance of the sheet. That is, a record sheet gives at-a-glance information about the current state of the Mech and allowing the player to take actions using that sheet in a single action or at least close to it. So leaping immediately to some kind of replication of the actual sheet (with some kind of pan-and-zoom function) might not be a great idea because it would add irritating time costs to everything.

So I assume a phone app/page would have to pretty much reorient the display of information toward the natural screen aspect and size rather than pretending it's something that it's not. All while still minimizing the time costs of taking any given action.

Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

Bison AIs

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #41 on: 15 April 2019, 23:34:11 »
That is, most browser and app experiences are designed to solve sub-problems for the user on the go and that fit the form of your normal vertically oriented phone rather than replicating a larger screen experience.

I think this is spot on, and at the same time, everyone (myself included!) is still all 'why doesn't this work on my phone?" with everything. 😂 

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #42 on: 04 June 2019, 17:11:35 »
But what if you are shooing to matched weapons at different targets? 

Secondary targets will be supported in the next update, a preview of which is available here: https://flechs.net/content/sheets3.next/

It's a little raw, so if you end up taking a look and come across anything confusing or weird, just holler.

[Edit: It's live now.]
« Last Edit: 11 August 2019, 13:50:20 by Bison AIs »

Bison AIs

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #43 on: 06 June 2019, 10:33:20 »
A brief video of the next version('s features) is available here:
https://youtu.be/hvhEqXvSOSA

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #44 on: 02 July 2019, 22:22:08 »
In case anyone is following, the most recent update adds MTF import.

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #45 on: 21 July 2019, 07:30:56 »
YES!!! OMG YES!

Thank you.

It works almost exactly as I'd hoped a digital sheet would. And even better in many places.
This is what CGL needs to invest in rather than more RS books.
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Bison AIs

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #46 on: 22 July 2019, 10:34:08 »
YES!!! OMG YES!

Thank you.

It works almost exactly as I'd hoped a digital sheet would. And even better in many places.
This is what CGL needs to invest in rather than more RS books.

Thanks for looking! Glad it's on target! Just holler if/when you notice anything peculiar.

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #47 on: 30 July 2019, 23:46:44 »
Offline mode incoming!
Overview of incoming update 3.05: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJhiq9pUnZE
Live preview here: https://flechs.net/sheets-preview/

[Edit: Merged into main branch: https://sheets.flechs.net]
« Last Edit: 11 August 2019, 13:51:29 by Bison AIs »

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #48 on: 31 July 2019, 05:18:38 »
How big is the offline mode version? There thousands of record sheets out there.  My phone isn't memory is infinite!  xp
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Bison AIs

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #49 on: 31 July 2019, 09:58:58 »
How big is the offline mode version? There thousands of record sheets out there.  My phone isn't memory is infinite!  xp

In short: Smallish... because the actual unit catalog is only available online... Offline you'll need to import sheets from local .mtf files, or use sheets that you already have open. (The size of the download is about 10MB.)

Also, have you been using a FS on a phone??? (I don't technically support phones because the current design is practically unusable—or so I thought?)

Bedwyr

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #50 on: 31 July 2019, 10:04:15 »
Also, have you been using a FS on a phone??? (I don't technically support phones because the current design is practically unusable—or so I thought?)

Toldja there'd be demand. ;)  :)
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Bison AIs

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #51 on: 31 July 2019, 10:09:26 »
Toldja there'd be demand. ;)  :)

Oh, never a doubt on that front—am surprised if someone is regularly using the interface as is on a phone...

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #52 on: 31 July 2019, 10:10:46 »
Ok... I use it on a phone sometimes to look up a unit I'm thinking of running while in line at CVS...

Bedwyr

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #53 on: 31 July 2019, 10:39:01 »
Oh, never a doubt on that front—am surprised if someone is regularly using the interface as is on a phone...

That's what I mean, highly motivate people with a high pain threshold.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

Wrangler

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #54 on: 31 July 2019, 11:20:05 »
Oh, never a doubt on that front—am surprised if someone is regularly using the interface as is on a phone...
It's bit more user friendly at games. Since you get frowns when you have big laptop taking valuable dice rolling space and potentially get distracted.
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"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
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"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
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Bison AIs

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #55 on: 31 July 2019, 11:34:32 »
It's bit more user friendly at games. Since you get frowns when you have big laptop taking valuable dice rolling space and potentially get distracted.

Interesting.
May I ask what kind of phone you're using? Do you use a stylus with it? And just to confirm, you're using marking/attacking functionality on this device? Or some subset (attacking only / manual marking only / etc.)?

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #56 on: 31 July 2019, 11:52:30 »
Interesting.
May I ask what kind of phone you're using? Do you use a stylus with it? And just to confirm, you're using marking/attacking functionality on this device? Or some subset (attacking only / manual marking only / etc.)?
I was using a old droid, but i haven't tried on my current phone.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #57 on: 31 July 2019, 11:59:11 »
Interesting.
May I ask what kind of phone you're using? Do you use a stylus with it? And just to confirm, you're using marking/attacking functionality on this device? Or some subset (attacking only / manual marking only / etc.)?
ok, i've loaded it up via Firefox on my phone.  It's little more tougher to use. I loaded a Men-Shen, it lets me add the heat. but it being nuggie (a pain) let me confirm next turn or add damage.  ok, it's more like being able to click the pop up buttons is the issue.

I didn't have as much of a problem with older version.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
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Bison AIs

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #58 on: 31 July 2019, 12:06:31 »
I didn't have as much of a problem with older version.

Interesting. Sorry to pester, but do you remember when-about you last used FS on a phone? And what specific things you did with that version?

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Re: 'Digital' Record Sheets
« Reply #59 on: 31 July 2019, 12:20:50 »
Interesting. Sorry to pester, but do you remember when-about you last used FS on a phone? And what specific things you did with that version?
LG Triumph 5
My current one is LG Triumph Empire.   Different OS the other one.  I still have the other phone, but not handy on me.

I did your program on Firefox.   Not native/local on the phone itself.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
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