A Time of War 2nd edition?

[victor_shaw]

Let me first start by saying game mechanics wise, 4th edition works well.
But there are some major issues with the character creation system I feel should be addressed.
1. The point cost/advancement points are way out there for what is needed, dividing the cost by ten would accomplish the same goal without having to use a calculator or spreadsheet.

2. There is a major lack of personality to the life paths, where 3rd and 2nd to a leaser extend (due to being phased out midway through the field manuals) had different schools and their flavors, and 3rd with its wider range of Tour of Duties gave you a feeling that you where unique. 4th feel way to generic and tends to make everyone the same who follows a certain path (Mechwarrior, Clan Mechwarrior, Pilot, etc.)

3. 4th has a major problem with useless traits and skills being given during character creation. Such as the Clans getting "Fit +5" what is the point of this it truly gets you no closer to the Fit trait requiring you to pay 95 more points. that's like needing $100 to buy a new book and asking you parent for Christmas and they put a down payment on it of $5 and tell you to pay the rest out of the Christmas money they gave you, what was the point? This happens with skills to, where the paths give you +5 in a skill when the min to get rank 0 is 20. If we used the divide 10 idea above that would be half a point. All of this seems to be a waste as most if not all players I know just optimize these points out and spend them where they want.

As I said above the general mechanics of the game are fine, but getting players past character creation is where this game drives players away.
And before I have to here it again I am not saying the the math is mathematically hard and can't be done, I am saying that there is to much of it, the systems is to generic, and it waste to many points on useless traits and skills that player just optimize out anyway.

Now that Catalyst is reprinting the core books I just thought that would be a great time to fix and update the system to take care of some of these issues.

[Daryk]

The point of smaller than necessary amounts of XP in traits is to encourage a player that direction without forcing them to take it.  For negative traits, it's also how you get around the maximum of 10% of your starting XP for "bought" XP.  Negative traits acquired via the modules don't count against that limit.

I also think there's plenty of flexibility built into the schools and life modules.  If a character doesn't want to be "cookie cutter", they've got more than enough choice in the form of Flex XP and outright "this or that" options.

Dividing by 10 would further complicate traits like Fast Learner.  Personally, I don't mind using a spreadsheet to speed things up.

[victor_shaw]

The point of smaller than necessary amounts of XP in traits is to encourage a player that direction without forcing them to take it.  For negative traits, it's also how you get around the maximum of 10% of your starting XP for "bought" XP.  Negative traits acquired via the modules don't count against that limit.

You seem to miss the point I was making. +5 for Fit is not encouragement to buy Fit in 99.9% of cases, its just +5 points that get optimized at the end and put somewhere else. All my players will get rid of it during this phase if they did not get anything that brought it close to finished.
If you where looking to suggest traits to a player and not force them to take them all you would have to do is add a line [Suggested Traits] to the path and have a [Required Trait] line for the ones they have to take.

I also think there's plenty of flexibility built into the schools and life modules.  If a character doesn't want to be "cookie cutter", they've got more than enough choice in the form of Flex XP and outright "this or that" options.

What I was addressing was that in the 2nd and 3rd edition, we had the schools stated out and different enough that if I went to the NAIS College of Military Sciences and another player went to Sakhara Academy they felt like they had different experience and training. If one player took Tour of Duty: Clan it felt different that the other who took Tour of Duty: Snow Raven Naval Officer or Tour of Duty: Joint Nova Cat/Combine Exercises. All the systems had the ability to spend points where you wanted to flush out you characters, this in its self does not ad flavor flexibility to the build. That is accomplished by players going to the Sun Zhang Mechwarrior Academy being trained in  Blade or and Martial Arts where some from the Thorin Academy gets training in tactic over martial skills.

Dividing by 10 would further complicate traits like Fast Learner.  Personally, I don't mind using a spreadsheet to speed things up.

Don't get me started on Slow and Fast Learner.
If I had a choice these would be the first things to go.
I have yet in any of the multiple 3rd and AToW games I have played in to find a Clanner who doesn't buy off Slow learner or a Innersphere player who doesn't buy Fast Learner. These to me over complicate the system for no purpose.

[Maelwys]

1) Its entirely possible dividing by 10 would've worked (I haven't poked at the math really to see). There may be a reason for the values though (obviously some skill values don't divide evenly, but a bit of rounding might not be too problematic.).

2) There were 2 problems with 3rd Edition that the generic-ness of ATOW's life paths addresses (IMO). The first is what in other games would be called "codex creep" where as time went on some 3rd Edition Life Paths where just BETTER than what came before (In fairness, this creep problem is also solved by the ATOW modules having point costs)

A second issue is timing. 3rd Edition was released over such a period of time that the Life Paths were spread out over just as many years. Early Field Manuals have RPG rules for 2nd Edition, while after 3rd was released, the Field Manuals had rules for 3rd Edition, and those factions with early Field Manuals languished with 2nd Edition rules for a long time.  The same would've happened with ATOW if they had tried to make specialized Life Paths for each faction. It took something like 10 years for all the Handbooks to come out. Imagine telling Kuritan players that they won't get their Kurita-specific lifepaths until the Kuritan Handbook came out...

Sure, you can shove faction specific life Paths into the main book to avoid this timing problem, but now you're looking at having dozens of extra Life Paths, and that makes the book so much bigger. Imagine having to have the space for a House Specific Academy (maybe 2 if you want to have a "Good" Academy and a "Bad" Academy. Oh, and their own ToD as well. And maybe their own Organized Crime Modules. And then add in the Periphery factions. And the Clans. 3rd Edition got to the point where there was a book almost entirely dedicated to Life Paths alone.

The ATOW system with the Affiliations allows for people to make characters with some factional flavoring, without having to go overboard and coming up with dozens of extra Life Paths and figuring out where to publish them and how to do it in a schedule that doesn't make some factions wait years for their paths.

And yeah, it can lead to feeling like some of the characters are cookie cutters, but Affiliations, Flex points and Optimization at the end should be enough points to make them actual characters.

3) These aren't so much useless traits (since the traits are useful), they're just not given enough points to full develop them. I treat them as possible hooks for the character that you can explore if you want to, or not. The best part about it with the Optimization system is that the hook is basically free.

Its more like a pre-order than a Christmas present. "Oh hey, you want this trait, you can spend 5 points on it now to start the process. And if in the end you decide you don't want it, you don't have to buy it AND we'll refund the points."

If ATOW didn't allow for the Optimization of points, then yeah, I think the awarding of non-fully actualized traits and skills would be an annoying thing, but you don't lose anything if you decide you don't want it.

[Daryk]

I'm with Maelwys on points 2 and 3.  As for 1, I see those 5 points here and there as just part of the very loose framework they described at the end.  Not dividing by 10 means not having to deal with rounding issues (which can be abused).

[Maelwys]

I do sometimes wish there was more flex points in the various Life Modules so you could play around with the Module at the time that you select it, but that's usually tempered at the end when I realize that pretty much HALF of your XP (or so it always seems to me after optimization) is Flex XP in the end.

I can see the appeal of wanting more crunch (faction specific academies, ToDs, etc), but that crunch isn't free. You have to have space in the book for it, you have to get it out in a reasonable time scale, and you have to police it (less of a problem with ATOW, as opposed to the open 3rd Edition).

Oh, another reason to keep it generic is it allows for you to use it in any era with minor changes to the affiliation rather than the Life Paths themselves.

[Daryk]

Yep, and that's exactly how they did it in Era Report: 3052 (tweaks to affiliations).

[victor_shaw]

OK some of this I will chalk-up to me not being clear.

What I was suggesting was cleaning the paths up and reducing the point values across the board, not just taking what was there and dividing by 10

ex.

Random Path: not named or some thing
Module cost: 30 XP

Prerequisites: what ever
Fixed XPs: 30
[Attributes] STR (+10), BOD (+10), RFL (+7), INT (-2 XP), CHA (–5 XP);
[Traits] [Traits] Equipped (–5 XP), Fit (+10 XP), Illiterate (–7 XP), Toughness (+7 XP),Wealth (–7 XP);
[Skill] Language/Affiliation (+1 XP), Martial Arts (+1 XP), Melee Weapons (+1 XP), Navigation/Ground (+1 XP), Perception (+1), Running (+1 XP),
Survival/Any (+1 XP), Tracking/Wilds (+1 XP)
Flexible XPs: +4 XP each to any two Attributes or Traits

Also changing the "EXPERIENCE POINT (XP) COSTS TABLE" to

Level/Score                  Trait/ Attribute Level                   Standard
      0                                        N/A                                          2
      1                                        10                                            3
      2                                        20                                            5
      3                                        30                                            8
      4                                        40                                           12
      5                                        50                                           17
      6                                        60                                           23
      7                                        70                                           30
      8                                        80                                           38
      9                                        90                                           47
     10                                      100                                          57
     11+                              (Level x 10)                                    N/A

[Talen5000]

I do have some issues about character generation myself,  bit mainly in that it seems over complicated.

Then there are the side issues....as an example, maybe I'm just not seeing it, but any time I create a ToW character, I fund myself missing the Quirk trait. Replacing it with Compulsion just doesn't work. Specialisations also seem underdeveloped.

Things like that.

1. The point cost/advancement points are way out there for what is needed, dividing the cost by ten would accomplish the same goal without having to use a calculator or spreadsheet.

Its workable.

2. There is a major lack of personality to the life paths, where 3rd and 2nd to a leaser extend (due to being phased out midway through the field manuals) had different schools and their flavors, and 3rd with its wider range of Tour of Duties gave you a feeling that you where unique. 4th feel way to generic and tends to make everyone the same who follows a certain path (Mechwarrior, Clan Mechwarrior, Pilot, etc.)

Third edition was also very random and received a lot more material.

3. 4th has a major problem with useless traits and skills being given during character creation. Such as the Clans getting "Fit +5" what is the point of this it truly gets you no closer to the Fit trait requiring you to pay 95 more points.

The point is to simply reflect your characters life path. Giving Clan characters +5 to Fit reflects that Clan society encourages physical fitness but it doesn't force the character to take the trait.

Personally, I would suggest banning optimisation as even sub optimal traits represent work and experience done towards a goal, or reflect aspects of ones character and society that can make interesting hooks.

So...ATOW does need improving, but I don't think your issues are where its problems lie.

[Daryk]

Reducing the modules in scope would make characters even more generic, so I'm even less sure now what you'd gain by dividing by 10...

[victor_shaw]

Reducing the modules in scope would make characters even more generic, so I'm even less sure now what you'd gain by dividing by 10...

I'm not sure where your getting your math but reducing -50 to -5 does nothing to change the scope of the Module?
All it does is reduce the over numbers by 1/10 from what they are right now.
If you can buy Rank 0 in a skill at 2 in one and rank 0 in the other at 20, whats the difference in scope?

As for Fit I was wrong its even worse that I had first said because it takes 200 xp, so that +5 is only 0.25% of the cost paid for by the Module.

[Daryk]

*snip*
What I was suggesting was cleaning the paths up and reducing the point values across the board, not just taking what was there and dividing by 10
*snip*

I took the two highlighted bits together to mean scoping down the modules.  So what exactly did you mean?  ???

[victor_shaw]

The main point I was making was that I have had little or no luck getting players to play this addition because of the character creation system.
I had no problems getting player to play 2nd and only slightly more problems then 2nd getting them to play 3rd, but out of the 18 players I have tried to get into AToW only 3 ever finished creating characters and they stopped wanting to play when one got killed during mech combat and would have had to make a new character.
For the rest I either switched to 2nd edition (which they loved) or to another game (Shadowrun/L5R)

And when asked why they did not want to play, everyone pointed to the character creation system as the reason.
Also, just to be clear they used the spreadsheet and that did not improve their experience.

If players can't get thru character creation then it doesn't matter if the rest of the game its the best system ever made mechanically, the system needs work.

[victor_shaw]

I took the two highlighted bits together to mean scoping down the modules.  So what exactly did you mean?  ???

What I posted above ex.(Backwoods Module)

OK some of this I will chalk-up to me not being clear.

What I was suggesting was cleaning the paths up and reducing the point values across the board, not just taking what was there and dividing by 10

ex.

Random Path: not named or some thing
Module cost: 30 XP

Prerequisites: what ever
Fixed XPs: 30
[Attributes] STR (+10), BOD (+10), RFL (+7), INT (-2 XP), CHA (–5 XP);
[Traits] [Traits] Equipped (–5 XP), Fit (+10 XP), Illiterate (–7 XP), Toughness (+7 XP),Wealth (–7 XP);
[Skill] Language/Affiliation (+1 XP), Martial Arts (+1 XP), Melee Weapons (+1 XP), Navigation/Ground (+1 XP), Perception (+1), Running (+1 XP),
Survival/Any (+1 XP), Tracking/Wilds (+1 XP)
Flexible XPs: +4 XP each to any two Attributes or Traits

Also changing the "EXPERIENCE POINT (XP) COSTS TABLE" to

Level/Score                  Trait/ Attribute Level                   Standard
      0                                        N/A                                          2
      1                                        10                                            3
      2                                        20                                            5
      3                                        30                                            8
      4                                        40                                           12
      5                                        50                                           17
      6                                        60                                           23
      7                                        70                                           30
      8                                        80                                           38
      9                                        90                                           47
     10                                      100                                          57
     11+                              (Level x 10)                                    N/A

[Daryk]

So how is that "not just" dividing everything by 10?  And I get 34 points for the module vice 30... I suspect rounding bit you.

As far as character creation, I do all the heavy lifting for my players.  They tell me generally what they want, I work up a draft, and we tweak from there.  It doesn't take that long, and I actually enjoy the process.

[victor_shaw]

So how is that "not just" dividing everything by 10?  And I get 34 points for the module vice 30... I suspect rounding bit you.

As far as character creation, I do all the heavy lifting for my players.  They tell me generally what they want, I work up a draft, and we tweak from there.  It doesn't take that long, and I actually enjoy the process.

The point is that your are only having to play with 500 XP not 5000 XP.
You get rid of Skills/Traits that have no reason to exist other then "we had 5 points laying around of the 150 so we put +5 to Fit because Clanners are fit right"

Don't get me wrong all the other editions had issues also.

1st: Laser focus on combat types with no non-combat types, Very little room to design PC that where different from one another
2nd: Powergamers becoming gods (By the way this can be handled with limited house rules)
3rd: Random rolls crippling or destroying PC concepts, Overly high advancement curves, Overblown damage system, Incompatible with board game.


As for doing character creation for my players.
I feel that (in most RPGs) that character creation is the best part of the game for players.
Its where they get to create the PC that the want to play and decide the personality of the PC.
IMO if you make it for them then you are cheating player out of the experience and creating your NPC interpretation of what the player tells you.

P.S. Did the math again and still got 30 XP so I'm not sure how you got 34 XP?

[Daryk]

Absolutely agreed on 3rd edition's problems (from both you and Maelwys).  I didn't think 2nd edition was that bad, but it had the cookie cutter problem in spades (Intuition was ALL).  1st was... well, a first edition.  It had its problems, but I remember it fondly, as that was the edition under which I played my longest playing character (most of the way through college... man, I miss those days!).

[victor_shaw]

Absolutely agreed on 3rd edition's problems (from both you and Maelwys).  I didn't think 2nd edition was that bad, but it had the cookie cutter problem in spades (Intuition was ALL).  1st was... well, a first edition.  It had its problems, but I remember it fondly, as that was the edition under which I played my longest playing character (most of the way through college... man, I miss those days!).

I personal feel that 2nd was the best Edition of the game.
The advancement problem can easily be fixed by changing XP awards and forcing the use of both AP and XP for advancement.
And to the issues with overpowered characters at character creation all you have to due is limit skill advancement to LRN during character creation.
This forces players to spend point there.

As for 3rd, I never had the same issues with 3rd that others seem to have had.

1. I never had issues with the random tables as even by the rules you could spend edge to reroll, I added one free reroll to every path which resulted in player never being to upset with the result, also had players who liked the idea of playing a Clanner that washed-out because it added flavor to them.

2. Really my only major issues with the game was the split of the gunnery skill and the high cost of advancement.
if these issues where fix it would have been a great game.

That's where I think IMHO 4th over-corrected and in the end made the character creation system less flavorful and more time consuming.

[Daryk]

2nd edition drove everyone to put their first priority into stats (INT especially, LRN not too far behind).  With 6s in the relevant attributes, you really only needed 3 levels (given by the basic skill packages) to be a 3 gunner or pilot.  The main issue (I thought) was the lack of spare points to round out a character.

Without free re-rolls, 3rd edition character creation felt a lot like Traveller to me: "Oh look, dead again... Time to start over..."  ::)

[victor_shaw]

2nd edition drove everyone to put their first priority into stats (INT especially, LRN not too far behind).  With 6s in the relevant attributes, you really only needed 3 levels (given by the basic skill packages) to be a 3 gunner or pilot.  The main issue (I thought) was the lack of spare points to round out a character.

Never understood why this was an issues, if a player wants to play a character that is not well-rounded that's there choice and they have to live with it.
Why is it the RPGs responsibility to keep them from doing it?

Without free re-rolls, 3rd edition character creation felt a lot like Traveller to me: "Oh look, dead again... Time to start over..."  ::)

I agree, but it only took adding the free re-roll to fix that so I have never understood everyone acts like the random system was the 6th Level of hell ???

[Daryk]

Starting over was time consuming, and disappointing if you had started to get invested in the character.

2nd edition's main problem was that stats were MUCH harder to raise than skills.  You could very easily tell yourself that you'd pick up more skills later.  Not so much stats...

[monbvol]

Maybe it is because I can have a decent point buy character in ten minutes and a module in about 30 minutes I've never really understood what the problem is for character creation.  Without spreadsheets on those times too.

Dividing by 10 just shifts things but does present an interesting thought for my house rules where I have specifically addressed the more troublesome aspects of Fast/Slow Learner.

Since AToW is a zero sum affair for the modules, at least until you start repeating them, it is actually really easy to come up with your own.  Heck for a full conversion AU I've been working on for ages I've managed to get up to stage 3 with a couple stage 4 modules tossed in as I got inspired.

[victor_shaw]

Maybe it is because I can have a decent point buy character in ten minutes and a module in about 30 minutes I've never really understood what the problem is for character creation.  Without spreadsheets on those times too.

Dividing by 10 just shifts things but does present an interesting thought for my house rules where I have specifically addressed the more troublesome aspects of Fast/Slow Learner.

Since AToW is a zero sum affair for the modules, at least until you start repeating them, it is actually really easy to come up with your own.  Heck for a full conversion AU I've been working on for ages I've managed to get up to stage 3 with a couple stage 4 modules tossed in as I got inspired.

Funny thing is that using the point buy system makes the large numbers of the character creation system even less necessary.

Would love to see you work on the module, it may present a springboard for me to add a little flavor into my game if I get around to run on.
Currently running a shadowrun 5th edition campaign set in 2050.
Are you using existing 3rd edition paths or crating your own?

[monbvol]

The modules I've been making are for AToW not 3rd just to be clear and are pretty specific to my full conversion AU.

They are making full use of my house rules and are for a full conversion AU.  That means no familiar factions, no familiar characters, and some slightly different premises.

I won't promise that they are very good at making sure a character is properly rounded or adding flavor but I did also attach some random event tables.

I'll toss a link to it down in my thread in Fan Rules for AToW stuff.

[Talen5000]

The main point I was making was that I have had little or no luck getting players to play this addition because of the character creation system.

I would agree the character creation is complex and unclear and not for everyone. It could be improved...I'm just not certain your ideas would be an improvement.

There are ore generated characters and the simpler, faster point based generation system.

[Robroy]

I would not mind if they reprinted the character creation section as a small pdf, stream lined and better layout. Would not even have to reprint all the skills and traits, just reference the pages in AToW. That and all the players would not be waiting on my book.

That said, I don't mind it. After a couple characters i got used to it.

[Daryk]

That's a really good idea... I may take a whack at it...

[Paul]

Don't get me started on Slow and Fast Learner.
If I had a choice these would be the first things to go.
I have yet in any of the multiple 3rd and AToW games I have played in to find a Clanner who doesn't buy off Slow learner or a Innersphere player who doesn't buy Fast Learner. These to me over complicate the system for no purpose.

Fast Learner might need a boost to make it worth while. And we already boosted it once. Maybe drop the cost.

You need a huge amount of sessions just to *break even* on the initial investment. At which point you're welcome to the benefits. Every other player has been getting benefits on their Traits the whole time you were still working just to get to break even.

Buying off Slow Learner? Well, like you said, not the job of the RPG to prevent people from doing so.

I would not mind if they reprinted the character creation section as a small pdf, stream lined and better layout. Would not even have to reprint all the skills and traits, just reference the pages in AToW. That and all the players would not be waiting on my book.

I'll see if that can be looked at.

[Robroy]

Ahh. You guys are going to make me blush.

In all seriousness, thanks.

[Maelwys]

OK some of this I will chalk-up to me not being clear.

What I was suggesting was cleaning the paths up and reducing the point values across the board, not just taking what was there and dividing by 10

I got this part, I just haven't crunched the numbers to see what happens. Its interesting, but I presume that CGL didn't do it on this scale for some reason (presumably). I don't know if it would be better or not.