Author Topic: designing light warships  (Read 3497 times)

Korzon77

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designing light warships
« on: 21 April 2018, 01:28:10 »
Say from 100K to 250K--the small boys. 

So, how do we design them? What do you put in them?  In many respects, things like the Levi III are easy--capital ship, biggest ship, so you, well, put everything in it. 

But a little ship like this?  you'll have to make selections--you can't be good at everything, but equally, it's the kind of ship that can be produced quickly, and one you can afford to lose. So what do we put in them, and what do we use them for?

Three eras:

1. Star League/era, from the reunification war up until Amaris coup.

2.  Clan War invasion-- from 3050 until the Smoke Jaguar destruction and the effective end of the Clan War as it had endured to that point.

3.  Jihad era.

Vition2

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #1 on: 21 April 2018, 09:12:08 »
For me, they are built to do one job, and they are hyper-focused on performing that job.

Some things they could be:
Light ASF Carrier - likely carrying no more than 40 ASF (yes, for me this is light)
Picket Ship - a scout built with speed in mind, NCSS, LFB and a bunch of sub-capital or standard weapons, with a small amount of larger bays for dropships
Gunship - A couple big weapons bays designed to threaten much larger ships
Torpedo Boat - Similar to the gunship but focusing on capital missile usage
Screen - similar to the picket ship, but with a heavier emphasis on weaponry than speed, intended to not make it easy for ASF, DS, and capital missiles to make it to the larger ships they are defending.

Daryk

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #2 on: 21 April 2018, 14:31:08 »
On a small ship, I'd avoid drop collars... they drive the price up like crazy.

Maingunnery

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #3 on: 21 April 2018, 14:36:18 »
On a small ship, I'd avoid drop collars... they drive the price up like crazy.
I would mount at least 1 collar, so that it can always be an emergency transport or carry some additional supplies for itself.
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Alsadius

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #4 on: 21 April 2018, 15:57:20 »
It depends on doctrine - is this an escort or a standalone combat ship?

For an escort, you want speed, light weaponry(anti-fighter, AMS, etc.), fighter/dropship capacity, and scouty things like NCSS. Armour is a secondary issue, and big guns should probably be avoided. The only capital-scale weapons I'd use would probably be NL45s and Barracudas, or sub-capital stuff if it's available. Maybe White Sharks if the doctrine is to degrade enemy capital ships with missile attacks before the big boys engage. NLs would be the bulk of it, because they're also good for fire support.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Escort Destroyer
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $12,546,925,680.00
Magazine Cost: $10,880,000.00
BV2: 32,000

Mass: 200,000
K-F Drive System: Compact with L-F Battery
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
32 AMS (IS)
32 LRM 20+Art4 (IS)
48 Laser Large ER (IS)
16 Naval Laser 45
16 Capital Launcher Barracuda

Class/Model/Name: Escort Destroyer
Mass: 200,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 60,000
Thrust
Safe: 5
Maximum: 8
Controls: 500
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact with L-F Battery (6 Integrity) 92,500
Jump Sail: (3 Integrity) 40
Structural Integrity: 50 10,000
Total Heat Sinks: 391(782) Double 0
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 5000 points 1,020
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 240 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 200
Fore: 35
Fore-Left/Right: 45/45
Aft-Left/Right: 45/45
Aft: 25

Dropship Capacity: 2 2,000
Grav Decks:
Small: 1 50
Medium: 0 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 15 105
Life Boats: 15 105

Crew And Passengers:
25 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 250
60 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 420
58 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 406
72 Bay Personnel 0

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
4 AMS (IS) Nose 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) RBS 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) Aft 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) LBS 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) FR 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) FL 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) AR 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) AL 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Nose 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Aft 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) RBS 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) LBS 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) FR 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) FL 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) AR 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) AL 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
6 Laser Large ER (IS) Nose 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) RBS 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) Aft 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) LBS 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) FR 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) FL 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) AR 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) AL 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
4 Naval Laser 45 Nose 280 180 (18-C) Extreme-C 3,600
4 Naval Laser 45 RBS 280 180 (18-C) Extreme-C 3,600
4 Naval Laser 45 LBS 280 180 (18-C) Extreme-C 3,600
4 Naval Laser 45 Aft 280 180 (18-C) Extreme-C 3,600
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda FL 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda FR 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda AL 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda AR 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360

Ammo Rounds Mass
AMS (IS) Ammo 144 12.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 144 12.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 144 12.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 144 12.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 144 12.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 144 12.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 144 12.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 144 12.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 120 20.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 120 20.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 120 20.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 120 20.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 120 20.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 120 20.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 120 20.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 120 20.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 40 1,200.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 40 1,200.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 40 1,200.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 40 1,200.00

Number Equipment and Bays Mass
5,000 Cargo, Standard 5,000
36 Bay Fighter 5,400
1 NCSS Large 500

For a standalone light combat ship, speed is still probably key to evade enemy battleships, but you want to up the armour a bit more, and probably pack a small number of hard-hitting capital weapons. Something like a quad HNPPC mount or a few NAC/40s in the nose - nose weapons don't need to be carried on each side(so you save weight), it's heavy enough to seriously threaten a battleship (especially in a high-speed closing engagement), and the issue of lining up with your target is less of a concern if you're zippy. Other angles probably carry missiles, because those can fire off-arc and thicken up the attacks, while not leaving it naked from other sides.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Combat Destroyer
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $12,657,856,800.00
Magazine Cost: $12,480,000.00
BV2: 43,630

Mass: 200,000
K-F Drive System: Compact with L-F Battery
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
32 AMS (IS)
32 LRM 20+Art4 (IS)
48 Laser Large ER (IS)
4 Naval PPC Heavy
12 Capital Launcher AR-10

Class/Model/Name: Combat Destroyer
Mass: 200,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 60,000
Thrust
Safe: 5
Maximum: 8
Controls: 500
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact with L-F Battery (6 Integrity) 92,500
Jump Sail: (3 Integrity) 40
Structural Integrity: 100 20,000
Total Heat Sinks: 691(1382) Double 300
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 5000 points 1,020
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 480 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 400
Fore: 90
Fore-Left/Right: 65/65
Aft-Left/Right: 65/65
Aft: 50

Dropship Capacity: 2 2,000
Grav Decks:
Small: 1 50
Medium: 0 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 15 105
Life Boats: 10 70

Crew And Passengers:
22 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 220
63 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 441
42 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 294

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
4 AMS (IS) Nose 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) RBS 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) Aft 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) LBS 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) FR 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) FL 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) AR 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 AMS (IS) AL 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Nose 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Aft 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) RBS 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) LBS 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) FR 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) FL 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) AR 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
4 LRM 20+Art4 (IS) AL 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 44
6 Laser Large ER (IS) Nose 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) RBS 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) Aft 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) LBS 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) FR 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) FL 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) AR 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
6 Laser Large ER (IS) AL 72 48 (4.8-C) Long 30
4 Naval PPC Heavy Nose 900 600 (60-C) Extreme-C 12,000
6 Capital Launcher AR-10 Extreme-C 1,500
6 Capital Launcher AR-10 Extreme-C 1,500

Ammo Rounds Mass
AMS (IS) Ammo 240 20.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 240 20.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 240 20.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 240 20.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 240 20.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 240 20.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 240 20.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 240 20.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 144 24.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 144 24.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 144 24.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 144 24.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 144 24.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 144 24.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 144 24.00
LRM 20+Art4 (IS) Ammo 144 24.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 60 1,800.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 60 1,800.00

Number Equipment and Bays Mass
2,000 Cargo, Standard 2,000
1 NCSS Large 500

Note: Yes, I used AR-10s with only one ammo type. These can be re-equipped for different missions, while the dedicated Barracudas on the escort model can't be.

Cryhavok101

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #5 on: 21 April 2018, 18:30:55 »
I would mount at least 1 collar, so that it can always be an emergency transport or carry some additional supplies for itself.

If the ship is small enough, small craft might suit it better, take up less weight, and be far cheaper.

Maingunnery

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #6 on: 21 April 2018, 18:44:34 »
If the ship is small enough, small craft might suit it better, take up less weight, and be far cheaper.
No, you misunderstood my point. In my example the WarShip is the emergency transport for the DropShip. And a proper cargo DropShips could double the cargo capacity (Mammoth/Behemoth).
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Korzon77

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #7 on: 21 April 2018, 20:37:00 »
I generally think fleets should have about 150% as many drop collars as they epxect to need--because your dropship crews will be far happier if losing a single ship doesn't result in "okay boys, time to draw straws on who stays and dies."

On another subject, for Jihad and after, how do light warships pan out? They're still potentially tougher than pocket warships, due to the ability to mount capital weapons, but the difference is far smaller than it was in earlier eras.

Vition2

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #8 on: 21 April 2018, 22:51:11 »
On another subject, for Jihad and after, how do light warships pan out? They're still potentially tougher than pocket warships, due to the ability to mount capital weapons, but the difference is far smaller than it was in earlier eras.

If you are talking about canon designs, then the result is that the Castrum can lay many smaller warship to waste - this is what happens when a mostly optimized design using the current rules goes up against something designed with an outdated rules set.  Other pocket warships are only a threat when nuclear warheads are considered, none of them carry enough missiles or other weapons to pose a significant threat to a warship.

If you want to include non-canon designs, then the Castrum costs ~3 billion c-bills (c-bills are generally what I consider to be the amount of resources needed to put a ship into space).  For less than 2 billion c-bills I can build a warship that can defeat the Castrum with a 75-85% win rate, it has about 10% less armor per facing (still having more armor overall), but can dish out ~20% more damage, while also having roughly double the standard weapon threat and AMS.  Said warship isn't quite as focused as I'd prefer a smaller warship to be, but could certainly fill a picket role or a screening role in a fleet action.

Red Pins

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #9 on: 21 April 2018, 23:19:50 »
Say from 100K to 250K--the small boys. 

So, how do we design them? What do you put in them?  In many respects, things like the Levi III are easy--capital ship, biggest ship, so you, well, put everything in it. 

But a little ship like this?  you'll have to make selections--you can't be good at everything, but equally, it's the kind of ship that can be produced quickly, and one you can afford to lose. So what do we put in them, and what do we use them for?

Three eras:

1. Star League/era, from the reunification war up until Amaris coup.

2.  Clan War invasion-- from 3050 until the Smoke Jaguar destruction and the effective end of the Clan War as it had endured to that point.

3.  Jihad era.


Hmm.  I'm seriously conflicted; the lightest of anything - tank, APC, ASF, Mech, WS - seem to attract the same attributes.  So, I guess it would be reasonable to go with the normal roles.  For non-standard roles, how about executive transport, HPG relay, ASF carrier/support, priority transport/courier, spyship, fighter trap/escort.

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DoctorMonkey

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #10 on: 22 April 2018, 15:34:27 »
I'd probably go for niche roles and being good at only one thing in a really small WarShip
- long range attack (guns)
- long range attack (capital missiles)
- ASF carrier (probably with flak-type weapons and possibly more DropShip collars than the previous two)
- task force carrier/escort (a bit like the Fox from canon - carries a load of DropShips and is designed to escort them from Jump Point to orbit against anything except WarShip opposition and possibly also offer some orbital strike capability)


I'd expect a Destroyer to do one of those only *more* than a Corvette (except probably the task force carrier/escort), a Frigate is an escort or independent raider but as an escort might either have both long range attack options or one of them and carry ASF etc


I'd make up different names for ship classes according to role
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Red Pins

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #11 on: 22 April 2018, 22:08:16 »
Good idea.  How about, 'Cutter' and 'Sloop'?
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DoctorMonkey

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #12 on: 23 April 2018, 03:09:13 »
Good idea.  How about, 'Cutter' and 'Sloop'?


Cutter
Sloop
Destroyer Escort
Aviso
Bomb Vessel (possibly Missile Vessel?)
Brig
Gun-Brig
Sloop-of-War
Brigantine
Clipper
Raider (akin to a Viking Longship)
Mistico
Xebec


I may, or may not, have just gone through the Wikipedia list of ship types  :)
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Red Pins

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #13 on: 23 April 2018, 22:36:49 »
Hmm.  The PT boat became justly famous in the south Pacific as a 'Patrol/Torpedo boat'- perhaps 'Patrol Transit', something with a single dropship collar?  'Patrol/Missile'?
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DoctorMonkey

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #14 on: 24 April 2018, 03:39:41 »
Hmm.  The PT boat became justly famous in the south Pacific as a 'Patrol/Torpedo boat'- perhaps 'Patrol Transit', something with a single dropship collar?  'Patrol/Missile'?


I deliberately avoided the MTB/MGB/PT boat names as to me they are more the names I'd use for DropShips armed with capital or subcapital weapons
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marcussmythe

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #15 on: 25 April 2018, 12:59:07 »
I use ‘small boys’ most often for fleet defense/anti fighter roles, and as forward observers for Naval C3, to feed targeting data to the big boys.  Also useful as escort carriers - a small warship cant really carry the tuns to make a difference, but its fighters may well do so.

Alsadius

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #16 on: 25 April 2018, 14:05:13 »
I use ‘small boys’ most often for fleet defense/anti fighter roles, and as forward observers for Naval C3, to feed targeting data to the big boys.  Also useful as escort carriers - a small warship cant really carry the tuns to make a difference, but its fighters may well do so.

Which says awful things about the game rules, tbh. When you can increase a ship's actual armament by adding thousands of tons of maintenance equipment, extra engines, cockpits, and other such non-gun equipment, instead of just adding the guns right on the ship, that's kind of crazy. (RL carriers get extra range, the ability to swap out their planes for different missions, the ability to put human eyes on a target within a radius of several hundred miles, and that sort of thing. But their actual weapon load is much lower than a dedicated attack ship's would be - compare them to nuclear missile subs, for example.)

#tiltingatwindmills

marcussmythe

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #17 on: 25 April 2018, 16:09:00 »
Which says awful things about the game rules, tbh. When you can increase a ship's actual armament by adding thousands of tons of maintenance equipment, extra engines, cockpits, and other such non-gun equipment, instead of just adding the guns right on the ship, that's kind of crazy. (RL carriers get extra range, the ability to swap out their planes for different missions, the ability to put human eyes on a target within a radius of several hundred miles, and that sort of thing. But their actual weapon load is much lower than a dedicated attack ship's would be - compare them to nuclear missile subs, for example.)

#tiltingatwindmills

1.)  You arent wrong.
2.)  If capship design becomes rules-aware, then the fighter carriage of a DDV will no longer outshine its firepower contribution.  Once you start putting 100+ anti fighter guns on a facing, fighters cease to be an issue.  (Nearly arbitrarily large numbers of normal scale weapons can be installed)  Once you put 25 AMS and sufficient ammo on a facing, so do missiles of any stripe.
3.)  Point 2 above does not obviate the DDV, because fighters/small craft let you mission load, giving flexibity, but avoid the massive procurement implications of both drop-collar costs and the highly inflated dropship final modifier. However, one of thise roles will not be ‘send 24 or 60 fighters to die under the guns of a McKenna Block 2C.’
4.)  As weve discussed before in contemporary threads, fixing AMS vs Missiles to give them a look-shoot capability and no more, with only a single firing chance and a set roll to knock down a missile, depending on missile size, shoot as many as you like at each and take your chances, fixes AMS vs Missiles.
5.)  Deployment Limits, Ground to Space Weapons, Magic Special Ground to Space Weapons, Rules of War, or some combination of the above, allowe Battlemechs to do their job without dying under orbital bombardment.  People in setting have had nukes, and sometimes warships, for a long time.
6.)  Something to make warship-carried standard scale weaponry not be a threat TO OTHER WARSHIPS.  Rescale Capital Armor.  Threshold Rules.  Something.  As long as that belt of 200 ER PPCs isnt doing 300 Capital Damage, we will be okay.  Maybe make the Threshold -anull- its value in non-cap-scale damage per incoming bay... so a 700 armor facing is immune to standard scale bays.  Your 200 ERPPCs will still chew up ligter vessels (why were you hugging a Battleship, anyway?) but will be much less threatening to a McKenna and wont even annoy Leviathan III

In conclusion - its broke, but I think its fixable with pretty minor tweaks.  And some of the wierdness (collar and dropship costs) I have embraced as an opportunity to ask what if - what if collars go away, cargo is the job of 1MT+ Compact Core Cargoships( and its ferried down, palletized in standard 100 ton chunks, by small craft?  Ive not worked out a buisness case for delivering large cargo amounts around space with compact core cargo ships, but I can see it - I am fiddling with a no-collar warship fleet, and with missile cruisers based on delivering significant blows through heavy PDS belts (assuming the above changes to PDS)
« Last Edit: 25 April 2018, 16:13:44 by marcussmythe »

Daryk

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #18 on: 25 April 2018, 16:38:49 »
The approach Drakensis used in his AU was simply MORE fighters.  His fleet battles involved hundreds and hundreds of fighters to get a sufficient wave of nukes through to kill warships.

Starfox1701

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Re: designing light warships
« Reply #19 on: 11 May 2018, 09:27:04 »
In my mind how you build them will depend entirely on what your personal fleet doctrine is. The one thing I think everyone would agree on here is that warships this small are realisticly NEVER supposed to be alone. So first question is who are his buddies and what do they bring to the table? Will it be functioning as a part of a patrol squadron, convoy escort, or fleet escort? This informs a lot of what are viable options. How much of the mission load does she have to carry?

A good example is the mk39 Vincent corvette. On paper she really sucks until you consider there is ALWAYS supposed to be 4 to 6 of them operating together. Then its more like a big ship with multi vector assault mode. Not a great ship mind you but way better then 1 vet running alone. That's my thought process in a nutshell.

 

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