FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!

[Zombyra]

I'm interested in a few matchups that are between less than equal machines; this is the first one.

CGR-1A1 Charger -bv/981- vs.
HBK-4G Hunchback -bv/1041-

The aboriginal bad reputation vs. the original back alley brawler!

• 4/5 Pilots
• 4 Battletech Intro Mapsheets, 2x2
• TW Rules

Competitors to Your Corners, Ready, Fight!

[Minemech]

 The Charger can destroy a Hunchback's leg in 2 kicks, or even destroy the Hunchback if a successful charge attack is backed up with the right rolls.  The Hunchback has the absolute advantage in weapon firepower and can force 2 PSRs a turn in hand to hand, the Charger only 1. The Hunchback also has the only head capping single non-spread weapon in the 3025 era, unless you consider the Blazer to be part of it so there is another variable. Overall I will probably side with the Hunchback, but the Charger is able to win this fight. The Hunchback will always fire 2 medium lasers as its safety shot, and the AC/20 for more certain shots when the enemy is within range.

[monbvol]

Have to side with the Hunchback in this one.  That AC-20 is going to take a lot of armor off each time it lands and 5/8 just isn't fast enough to close to physical range to avoid taking a few versus 4/6.  Despite that I think it will be a close contest just barely favoring the Hunchback.  I'd call it 7 out of 10.

[blackjack]

Call it bravado but I took the Charger. I have never had much luck with the 4G. The charger on the other hand is a gas to play & with the movement profile able to get the back of the hunchback. 

[Ronin Actual]

Took the Charger.  Slammed the Hunchie with a 40 point charge and 2 points of fall damage (displaced to level 1 water).  Next turn I let him take a bunch of small lasers and a solid kick on the punch table.  In exchange he hit me hard in the leg with that AC20, bye-bye armor.  Next round I backed up for room for another charge but he followed and hit me in the leg again for a hip crit!  So I closed up so I could throw some punches and ended it with an ammo crit to the AC20 bins, BOOM! 

Never played a charger before, a solid up close brawler with heavy physical damage capability. 

[House Davie Merc]

I've fought this exact same fight several times and I had the
Hunchback .

The 5/8 movement of the Charger is an incredible advantage .

Sure the Hunchback has better firepower but you can't hit what you can't catch .

The Charger's small lasers are enough to take away the Hunchbacks main weapon
the first round it gets behind the Hunchy .
2 kicks fromthe Charger to the same leg makes the Hunchy a cripple .
A punch to the rear torsos is a crit roll .

I lost HARD to a Charger in the  city with a Hunchy .
In another game in open country I slaughtered the Charger without taking a single
point of damage .

I'm going to have to vote "to close to call" because the Hunchy can't reach out past
9 hexes and the Charger is faster and has some serious physical attacks .

[Sharpnel]

The limited speed advantage of the Charger is offset by its lack of armor and its extremely short range with small lasers. The hunchie wins based on the BFG and the medium lasers. The only way the Charger survives is if it runs away as soon as possible

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The odds appear to slightly favor the Hunchback.

There's no denying how powerful the Charger's physical attacks are, but it's got to come straight through the Hunchback's field of fire to make it to deliver that, and with 25 points of armor on its CT and 20 on the legs and side torsos, the sheer devastation of the Hunchback's big gun will tear it to pieces.

The Hunchback can (barely) take a full distance charge from the Charger due to the 5 point clusters average spread across the mech's body* but the Charger can't take the concentrated damage from the AC/20.  One successful crit to a leg would effectively decide the fight in the Hunchback's favor.

Initiative is the other critical factor here- the Charger can't charge and won't be able to try to punch or kick the Hunchback if it doesn't win init, and if it's far enough away from the Hunchback to get outside of AC range on a round that it loses init it was too far away to make a charge or kick attempt in the first place.

*Interesting side note, the Hunchback actually has 3 more points of armor on its front arc than the Charger does.

[House Davie Merc]

Initiative is the other critical factor here- the Charger can't charge and won't be able to try to punch or kick the Hunchback if it doesn't win init, and if it's far enough away from the Hunchback to get outside of AC range on a round that it loses init it was too far away to make a charge or kick attempt in the first place.

Very true .

In my hunchback versus Charger fights I lost the initiative almost every round .

When the Hunchback did win initiative it wasn't fast enough to take advantage of it .

On the other hand the Hunchback can't reach past 9 hexes  while the
Charger can run 8 .

If the Charger hangs out at the Hunchbacks long range until it wins initiative
then the Hunchy commonly has to roll 12s to hit without terrain .  10s at medium range .
Once the Hunchy looses initiative the Charger can either get into face to face for
physicals or if positioned well it can get behind it where the Hunchy's 4 armor over
the ammo and AC/20 isn't much protection .

With the long range of the Hunchy's weapons starting at 7 hexes and the Charger
being able to run 8 , you'd be surprised at how hard it can be to take advantage
of that big gun before the Charger gets physical .

I know I was.
I didn't think the Charger had a chance  but I couldn't get a decent shot in .

On more mountainous terrain where the Charger can't pick up the +3 target mod
or close from range 7 to in your face in 1 round I'd give it to the Hunchback .

With this versus being described as on " the starter maps"  then there's plenty of
flat combined with woods for the Charger to close and boost it's target mod .

That's why I picked "to close to call" .  Either can easily win under these conditions .

[verybad]

Just made me think of how awesome a Charger IIC experimental mech using improved Small Heavy lasers, stealth armor, 3x myomers, and uhh, I dunno. It would just be awesome. I went with the Charger on this also.

[Drasius]

TCTC, the Hunchie will be facing steep TN's to hit with the boomstick, and even then, it will have to hit twice in the same spot to get through the armour. A charge will seriously hurt the hunchie and leave the fight down to who wins init the next round since the Charger can circle 'round for a nice back shot or the Hunchback can drop him from close range with good TN's.

[ShadowRaven]

Hunchback. The Charge has to charge successfully, and then be able to kick. A failure anywhere in there leads it open to return fire it can not really survive.  A smart player of the Hunchback will, if the Charger gets into charging range and the hunchie looses init, try and close the gap. Don't let it charge full length.  Your big concern is keeping it out of your rear arc at kicking range. with the minimal speed difference that is very much doable most of the time. I think it will be tight, but my money is on Quasimodo on this one.

[Jim1701]

The big question will be who loses a leg first.  A Hunchback with a 4/5 pilot is going to need a lot of luck to hit a target that can generate a +3 TMM beyond short range.  At the same time the Hunchback has a much easier tactical situation than the Charger.  Both pilots will need patience though.  If either gets antsy and tries to force the issue at the wrong time it will most likely go badly for them. 

[HavocTheWarDog]

If the charger pilot is patient and keeps at longer to mid ranges, then he could do serious fubaring (with kicks)to the hbk once its outa ammo. Cant hit what you cant hit!

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I really doubt that the Hunchback pilot would be brain dead enough to waste all the AC ammo on bad shots.

[monbvol]

Plus any turn the Charger is generating a +3 TMM will be a turn it is out of range anyway or where it'll be at Short Range.

While 4/6 can't outmanuever 5/8 forever, especially with the stated maps, it can force the Charger into having to bet on winning initiative a lot more than I would feel comfortable with.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Having thought about it, the Hunchback's best strategy would probably be to occupy the high ground as quickly as it could- the Charger would lose some movement trying to climb up after it, reducing the power of a charge and decreasing its ability to get behind the Hunchback.  And the Hunchback wouldn't have to worry about obstructions in its LOS as much, either.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

The big question will be who loses a leg first.  A Hunchback with a 4/5 pilot is going to need a lot of luck to hit a target that can generate a +3 TMM beyond short range.

Those last three words are key Jim, because to hurt the Hunchback at all, the Charger has to enter it's short range.  Also assuming the Hunchback walks that is a +1 both ways, so an 8 to hit with all his weapons.  HOWEVER, that is exactly the same number a Charger would need to succeed in his charge (5 piloting, +0 for a charge at equal Piloting skills, +2 for the run, +1 for the TMM), and the Hunchback gets the chance to fire before the Charger gets to engage in a physical attack.

If that BFG should hit?  Well not only is all the armor gone in one section (save the Center Torso), but that is a PSR at +1, or a 6 if no other modifiers apply, that is a 28% chance the Charger will blow the PSR and faceplant right at the Hunchback's feet, dropping his kick from a roughly equal chance (TN 7) to a much more favorable 83% chance.The Charger OTOH can NOT force a PSR outside of a physical attack, and while taking a charge the Hunchback is perfectly able to kick back, offering a second PSR chance on the Charger.

Both have the same mass of armor, though the Hunchback carries heavier armor up front, leaving it within 4 or five points of total combined structure, and unless he gets unlucky in the distribution enough to possibly ride out TWO successful full length charges.

Personnally I'd save my BFG ammo for medium range or better shots, and plink with the MLs till he committed to closing for damage.

Can the Charger win?  Sure, but many things will have to break his way, initiative, avoiding the AC/20 hitting him when he closes to engage the Hunchback, not blowing ANY PSRs during the engagement, and actually making his own 50-50 roll when he tries to charge.  Any crits to the legs or center torso will be a death sentence, leg hits will bring the Charger down to at least the Hunchback's speed, a hip or gyro hit will be particularly devastating, forcing a PSR any time the Charger runs.  Two engine hits will put the Charger on a slow burn to shutdown.  The Charger has to get lucky every time he makes an attack, the Hunchback only has to get lucky once or twice.

[blackjack]

Somebody needs to play this out about 20 times on megamek. Ten games each mech.

[Iron Mongoose]

As has been said, its all about innitive.  The Charger can basicly only do damage on a turn it wins.  The Hunchie can easily back up either out of range or to three hexes and force long range TNs for the SLs, while enjoying short or medium TNs its self.  So, about half the time, statisicly, the Charger won't be doing any damage.  But, it can't run far enough away to keep the Hunchie off its back, since it can't jump behind a hill or dash away like a properly fast mech could.  When the Charger does win int, it can angle for back shots or charge or just run up and shoot and kick (this is what I would do, since the SLs add up and the kicks are nice), but the Hunchie can also shoot back most of the time. 

If the Charger gets lucky, it can of course win.  But, I think if the Hunchback plays a bit defensively to prevent long charges and back shots, it can win with only average or even just below average luck, and so it would be my pick.

[Isanova]

I tend to favor the Charger, just because it is one of my favorite mechs. Interestingly, in this scenario a CGR-1L Charger would be far superior despite being maligned for removing even more armor from the original.

A huge factor in this is the mapsheets, and whether one uses double-blind rules or not. It can lead to a huge luck factor, first guy to make the unlucky walk into the enemy's LoS will get in trouble.

I still think the Charger has an advantage, given the added structural points. The Boomstick is strong, but it takes some good shots and the CGR is going to be moving 5 hexes most likely.

[Ronin Actual]

One thing I noticed is that if the Charger is close enough to make a long distance charge and lost intiative the Hunchback would often try to close the gap (in MM).  This left two choices walk backward for 5 (if possible) to mess up TNs or close in a manner that puts it in the rear arc or at least a side arc (gets rid of a counter kick). I was surprised how well the Charger did each time I played. However, "...good against the living? That's something else."

[Zombyra]

Somebody needs to play this out about 20 times on megamek. Ten games each mech.

If you mean vs. the bot, sure--why not.

. . . . . . . . . .

OK, I really thought I'd do better as the Charger, but I think a couple of those losses weren't really my fault  :'(  I'll list the highlights, some of them are at least a little funny.

First
As the Charger
1. Ammo crit, back shots from small lasers and punches. Charger wins.
2. Slugging match up over a hill. Charger.
3. 2xCT with the first two AC20 shots.  Shortly thereafter, cored. Hunchback wins.
4. First salvo, medium laser through the Charger's armor, 2x Gyro hits. Hunchback wins.
5. Ammo crit, back shots. Charger.
6. Hunchback is legged from 2xkicks, Charger loses R. Torso early-on. Charger
7. Hunchback is Hip crit from 1 kick and s.lasers. Downhill from there. Charger.
8. Ammo crit, back shots. Charger.
9. Charger ranged by Hunchback, Charger loses Gyro. I lost a LOT of initiative. Hunchback.
10. Hunchie loses AC20 to back shots (only used once), 2 turns later, Charger blacks out for 8 turns from head hits. Darn, I really thought I had this one! Hunchback wins.

oh, and I've got to add: I lost many side torsos and arms in the process, and was often without all 5 s.lasers one way or another.  The AC20 does a lot of hurt, it's just that the Charger is fairly resilient.

As the Hunchback
1. Hunchback ranges Charger. Hunchback wins.
2. Hunchback ranges Charger. Hunchback wins.
3. Hunchback ranges Charger. Hunchback wins.
4. Hunchback ranges Charger. Hunchback wins.
5. Hunchback ranges Charger. Hunchback wins.
6. . . . I just stopped at this point.  The AI isn't aggressive enough with the Charger; if I just play conservatively there's really no reason I should lose the fight aside from some really random BS.  I'm getting occasionally pelted with the s. lasers, but it's just too easy to outmaneuver the bot, I didn't take but a couple kicks at all, and no back shots.

It's hard to say the bot is a good measure of the fight, but if there's a lesson in it, it might be that the Charger has to be more aggressive and take chances to win, & the Hunchback really doesn't.  The Charger can win, but when you have to take chances, random stuff happens!

[Nikas_Zekeval]

On three wins, and one near win, playing the Charger aganist the Hunchback run by the bot, you listed the death being back shots.  How the heck did you manage that in a duel?  Did you knock him down from a physical and manage to run around him when he stood back up?

[Kovax]

I think the winner of this one is the pair of six-sided Random Number Generators.  Depending on use of terrain, initiative at the right times, to-hit numbers, and PSRs, this could easliy go either way.  Both 'Mechs are dangerous, for totally different reasons, and each has a different critical weakness that the other can exploit.

As the player vs bot matches clearly show, the CGR must be run (quite literally) aggressively, or it dies horribly.  The HBK can afford to play it much more conservatively, but could suddenly see things go way wrong with one or two bad die rolls, or poor position.

[Kiesel]

Against a human player, backshots should be impossible in this fight...  Even when losing initiative the mechs can always torso twist to force a side shot.
Similarly, long charges are going to be impossible on these maps, because a human hunchback player will just park on top of the lvl3 hills available on the battletech map sheet.  You are looking at a 3 hex charge at best.  And there is at least one spot (on the hill shaped like a snake) where the hunchback can limit the charge to 2 hexes while also negating the risk of being pushed off a cliff.

Plus, if it is charging, it will have to make the piloting roll after facing the full arsenal of the hunchback at point blank range (with a 5 to-hit), and will also be taking a 10pt kick on the punch chart (also a 5 to-hit).

[Jim1701]

Torso twisting does not change facing for receiving damage, only for firing purposes.  if the terrain is clear it is possible that the Charger could get into the Hunchbacks back arc. 

[Kiesel]

I just looked it up and discovered you are correct, and that furthermore, there is no optional rule in tactical operations either.
which is strange since the RAW makes so little sense I'm glad that my group has been apparently house ruling it all these years.

Torso twisting to put stronger/undamaged armor towards the enemy while you close is an important tactic in the the sims.

Still by standing at the peak of a hill the hunchback is going to make backshots very rare.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

The thing is, while the Charger has more MPs, it doesn't have enough to run around a Hunchback that is actively trying to avoid it.

The Hunchback loses initative with the charger in front of him.  He walks back 4 hexes.  The Charger advances four hexes, turns (5th MP), walks forward one (6th MP), turns again (7 MP), then walk forward one more.  That is enough to put him on the Hunchback's side, not his back.  Which is why I asked if he managed to knock the Hunchback down on the turn prior to the backshot.

Also, another safety tip, when a Charger is looking to come at you from range, and you lose initiative?  Do NOT stop on a direct hex line from him.

[Zombyra]

The thing is, while the Charger has more MPs, it doesn't have enough to run around a Hunchback that is actively trying to avoid it.

The Hunchback loses initative with the charger in front of him.  He walks back 4 hexes.  The Charger advances four hexes, turns (5th MP), walks forward one (6th MP), turns again (7 MP), then walk forward one more.  That is enough to put him on the Hunchback's side, not his back.  Which is why I asked if he managed to knock the Hunchback down on the turn prior to the backshot.

Also, another safety tip, when a Charger is looking to come at you from range, and you lose initiative?  Do NOT stop on a direct hex line from him.

Jim1701 is obviously right, torso twisting changes the firing arc, but not the facing for damage.  Assuming you didn't mean that, or the times when the Hunchback is already down movement for heat or actuators, and, like you said, a knockdown would make the Hunchback vulnerable as well, the idea is to position the Charger with the Hunchback not directly in front of it, but to one side or the other, so that if you win initiative next turn . . .

This usually means you are going to take at least 1 AC20 hit at short range.  But, like I said, the Charger sometimes has to take chances.  And as many times as I took that AC20 hit, it only lost me the fight once, really.  Two losses were really random med.lsr shots, and one loss was just really bad initiative until i ran out of armor; and that game I took 4 or 5 hits from the AC20 iirc before it put me down.

Plus there's terrain all over the place on those maps to block routes, and I don't know how many moves ahead the AI plans--I don't think it does, really--but it was never aggressive enough using the Charger to force me back into terrain that could have blocked my escapes with the Hunchback.

The AI also seemed to be pretty smart about avoiding charges--perhaps accidentally--but I rarely got the chance to do so anyway.