Mech of the week: Axman

[garhkal]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure anything under 50 tons is terrified of the Berserker with active TSM. Assuming it catches them.

With a 4/6(8) move once TSM is active), it should be able to catch most things...

[Agathos]

PS sorry to the Original poster for a slight derailment of the thread on that..

I see last week's Hatchetman discussion included a little digression about the Awesome, so I'd say things are right on schedule.

[gyedid]

Pretty sure anything is. Especially with XL engined Assaults being so prevalent.

Ah, Axman. Armed with 2 weapons which are decidedly inefficient but warms the soul to employ in a Btech game. She doesn't look like much, she doesn't have the sheer mass of the Berserker, she doesn't have the TSM-fueled rabid-rage of the Ti Tsang, but when that Axe hits that Head just right... these hills sing.

AXM-3S is the defining variant IMHO.

Ah yes, the Ti Tsang.  Seems to me that it was developed specifically to beat the Axman.  While it doesn't have the big gun threat, its better speed  and maneuverability, better armour, and TSM-assist performance boosts all seem to combine to create a package that outperforms the Axman in most respects.  Must've been pretty humiliating for the Axman's Davion designers to realize that they'd been beaten by the Capellans at their own game.  >:D

cheers,

Gabe

[SteelRaven]

While I never read it in any of the fluff, I always thought the No-Dachi was built to compete with the Axman as well.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Well, it does say that the Combine was trying to develop a hatchet - wielding mech but the Samurai found it barbaric.   So it does everything but outright state it.

[Valtech]

There is a saying applied to Battleships and Tanks that goes something like this...

Speed, protection, firepower...pick two"

This I think is the heart of the problem for both the Axman and its little brother Hatchetman in their
stock offering. They are SLOW and especially in the Axman VERY short ranged in reach. Mechs that
have physical attacks in their weaponry in my view must have a good turn of speed...and even better
have at least one main weapon with reach... The LB-20X is a good start but I would even sacrifice
some medium beamers for a clantech ER-PPC or such. I would also want at least more speed, the
jump jets are nice and a must have but at least  5-8 ground speed...  The Axman has potential
and I do like it, flaws notwithstanding.... 8)

[Arkansas Warrior]

4/6/4 is an entirely respectable speed for a heavy mech in 3050.  Yes it’s short-ranged, but no more so than many other close-Assault units, like the Hunchback or Victor, or even an Atlas (minus its LRM20).  It may not be tremendously effective at running swifter enemies down, but it is great at keeping them away.  That’s why I like using it as a bodyguard for a Fire Support Lance.  Yes, go run up and attack those Archers.  Sure.  What’s that, you didn’t notice the Axman hidden behind a building until it jumped right into your face, AC20 blazing and axe falling?  Too bad, so sad.  I’d say you live and learn, but, well...*you* won’t.

[SteelRaven]

If you want something faster with range, get a Falconer. The Axman is built to be a ambush predator.

And I have done the numbers on slapping a Gauss or a couple of PPC Axman. you would have to make so many changes, might as well pilot a different mech.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Personally, I'd have just liked seeing the 1N's LPL replaced with an ER Large Laser and armor.

[Colt Ward]

4/6/4 is an entirely respectable speed for a heavy mech in 3050.  Yes it’s short-ranged, but no more so than many other close-Assault units, like the Hunchback or Victor, or even an Atlas (minus its LRM20).

Ah yes, the Ti Tsang.  Seems to me that it was developed specifically to beat the Axman.  While it doesn't have the big gun threat, its better speed  and maneuverability, better armour, and TSM-assist performance boosts all seem to combine to create a package that outperforms the Axman in most respects.  Must've been pretty humiliating for the Axman's Davion designers to realize that they'd been beaten by the Capellans at their own game.  >:D

Yeah, its a sad cousin to the Capellan TSM flagship.  The 3050 Victor has a Gauss Rifle for a reason and the Hunchback has faded since that speed is no longer a 'standard' for heavier designs as it was in 3025.

The Axman would have been fine for the Inner Sphere if the Clans had not introduced the standard of heavies moving 5/8.  While the IS did not adopt it completely, enough of the frontline equipment it could expect to face would have that speed.

Then again, I share Grayson's attitude towards melee weapons . . . with a special exception for the Tsi T'sang and No Dachi 2KO.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The Ti Ts’ang is a very different mech, with its TSM and a collection of small energy weapons for fine-tuning.  The Axman’s AC is as important as its axe.  Staying two hexes from a Ti Ts’ang takes away its main advantage and leaves it as little more than a hot-running ml boat.  Staying two hexes from an Axman puts you in prime AC20 range.  The Axman is an ambush predator, that waits out of sight for you to get close.  The Ti Ts’ang is an open field fighter that runs down its prey.  I completely reject your characterization of the Victor and Hunchback.  The VTR-9K is just a different mech from the 9B.  It plays completely different.  The Hunchback is entirely relevant on a modern battlefield, it hasn’t faded at all.

[SteelRaven]

Ti Ts’ang was produced 10 years later in response to the Axman. That's like basing all your criticism of the Panther PNT-9R on the introduction of the Wolfhound WLF-2 years later.
   

[Starfury]

I would love an Axman variant with TSM or an Ultra AC/20, but we'll have to wait for future variants to appear. I have had luck using the 1N and 2N together, using jump jets to maneuver in rough terrain and awaken the enemy with LRMs before the 1Ns can get onto AC/20 range, but in later eras there are better options for a short range/long range quartet.  As an aside, has anyone ever tried to run a company of hatchet carrying designs?

[Wrangler]

I've never tried. That's interesting question to Axsk. 
In Canon it's properly such a uncommon mech, seeing company be highly surprising.  Especially with FedSuns side lost access to some of the stuff made 1N a effective mech, switching to light autocannons was big downer for me for it.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Well see some kind of modern Axman with one of these rec guides or another. I don’t have any real idea about how it will be, but I am interested.

[Colt Ward]

The Ti Ts’ang is a very different mech, with its TSM and a collection of small energy weapons for fine-tuning.  The Axman’s AC is as important as its axe.  Staying two hexes from a Ti Ts’ang takes away its main advantage and leaves it as little more than a hot-running ml boat.  Staying two hexes from an Axman puts you in prime AC20 range.  The Axman is an ambush predator, that waits out of sight for you to get close.  The Ti Ts’ang is an open field fighter that runs down its prey.  I completely reject your characterization of the Victor and Hunchback.  The VTR-9K is just a different mech from the 9B.  It plays completely different.  The Hunchback is entirely relevant on a modern battlefield, it hasn’t faded at all.

Calling it a ambusher is making excuses for the mech in the 'modern' era when it came out.  An ambush with mechs is generally a happy accident, planning your doctrine for fighting a invasion with 'ambushes' is a strategy destined to fail.  Leave off the TSM and the Ti Ts'ang still has the speed to bring that axe into play b/c it can chase down the slower 4/6 designs that are trying to avoid it or at least cause a disruption in enemy lines.

If it was 3025 it would be mostly viable, just like the AC/20 Hunchback & Victor- or the sort of Hatchetman.  Short range mechs- hatchet or AC/20- that cannot close the range are casualties waiting to happen.  The Victor got a Gauss Rifle update in 3050 and at least Ultras in later periods to extend the range a bit.  The Hunchback does not have the mobility of even the Victor with its JJ, with less armor and structure.  The  Quasimodo and -7R (IIRC) go faster than 4/6 for a reason- because the battlefield standards have increased.  So do later Hatchetmen.

Ti Ts’ang was produced 10 years later in response to the Axman. That's like basing all your criticism of the Panther PNT-9R on the introduction of the Wolfhound WLF-2 years later.

No, its simply pointing out that the implementation of the concept is flawed and a later design did it right.  The Panther as a pocket medium is viable in 3025 play . . . slow short-ranged was viable in 3025 when you lacked the range and damage of current weapons.  The Axman needs to go faster as a post-Helm/Clan design . . . heck, the Hatchetman should have gone faster, but it was forgivable at the time b/c it had a 10 point ranged hit.  Downgrade the Hatchetman's AC to get a bigger engine and it would be interesting to see how it played for the era.  Make the Axman 5/8 and suddenly it is a actual threat in battle to 4/6 line & fire support heavy mechs who can only back up at half the rate the Axman could advance.

Kerfuffin has a interesting point- with it getting new art it will be interesting to see what gets done with a RecGuide design considering the weapon port matching.  Speed?  Armor?

This is not to say I would not laugh to see a merc urban assault company with a Berzerker, some Hatchetmen, an Axman, a Ti T'sang, a Black Knight 9, maybe a salvaged Bucaneer . . .

[Arkansas Warrior]

I don’t know what kind of games you’re playing where a 4/6/4 Heavy brawler isn’t viable, but it doesn’t sound like anything I’ve played.  Anywhere that doesn’t have pool table LOS is workable.  Put it with an LRM Lance using IDF from behind a hill, where it can be a hell of a surprise for a quick hunter expecting nothing but Longbows or Archers or something.  Put it in a command Lance to discourage headhunters.  Use it in an urban environment.  There are lots of ways to use an Axman (or Hunchback, or VTR-9B, or whatever) on a modern battlefield.  Even without the axe, a jumping AC20 alone can be a hell of a terrain-denial unit.

[garhkal]

I would love an Axman variant with TSM or an Ultra AC/20, but we'll have to wait for future variants to appear. I have had luck using the 1N and 2N together, using jump jets to maneuver in rough terrain and awaken the enemy with LRMs before the 1Ns can get onto AC/20 range, but in later eras there are better options for a short range/long range quartet.  As an aside, has anyone ever tried to run a company of hatchet carrying designs?

One of my home made companies, has 8 of the 13 mechs with hatchets.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Do you call it the Chop Shop?

[Sabelkatten]

A while ago I decided to try a "Hatchet lance" in MM. 4 Hatchet mechs and 4 fire support mechs vs/ 5 clan mechs.

Forgot to set the bot starting area.

Everything got deployed in an area less than 10 hexes across.

Poor fire support, happy axe murderers! ;D

But regarding the Axeman my main complaint is the tonnage. 65 tons is about as bad as it gets for a Hatchet. If it had been 75 tons it would have been much better.

[SteelRaven]

Agree, I sometimes wonder if the Axeman started out as a tricked out Thunderbolt. Then again, there are a few mechs that are a little light for their weapon load out for no in game reason.

[Fat Guy]

Also the Axman is a product of TRO 3050, where well thought out designs were few and far between.   ;)

[garhkal]

Do you call it the Chop Shop?

Nope..  BUT it may make for a good name..
Here's the run down of my mechs with hatchets
Thundercrack, 60 tons (Lance 2, company 1)
Storm's fury 60 tons (lance 2, company 1)
Storm's front 30 tons (Lance 2, company 1)
Centaur 45 tons (Lance 3, company 1)
Odin 90 tons (Lance 1, company 2)
Woodsman 45 tons (Lance 3, company 2)
Bull 45 tons (Lance 1, company 4)
Boar 45 tons (Lance 1, company 4)
Condor, 75 tons (Lance 2, company 4)
Eagle, 75 tons (Lance 2, company 4)
Samurai 85 tons (Lance 1, company 5)
Kensai 90 tons (Lance 1, company 5)
Sohei 55 tons (Lance 1, company 5)
Knight 100 tons (Lance 1, company 8 )
Strider 75 tons (Lance 1, company 8 )
Mace 40 tons (Lance 1, company 8 )
Flail 35 tons (Lance 1, company 8 )
Scithe 90 tons (Lance 2, company 8 )
Morning glory 75 tons (Lance 2, company 8 )
Death's head 50 tons (Lance 2, company 8 )
Halberd 35 tons (Lance 2, company 8 )
Heimedall, 75 tons (Lance 3, company 9)
Ugg 65 tons (Lance 2, company 11)

But regarding the Axeman my main complaint is the tonnage. 65 tons is about as bad as it gets for a Hatchet. If it had been 75 tons it would have been much better.

That's something i've often remarked about.  15/30/45/60/75/90 are the best tonnages to make, for a hatchet wielding mech..  No wasted tonnage.  THough i do admit, i do have a # that go outside that.
15 of them, do hit that magic #, 7 don't.

[Nightsong]

I’m a little surprised the Lyrans didn’t try to shoehorn a Heavy or Improved Heavy Gauss in as a compromise between the -1N and -2Ns. Though to be fair, you’d probably have to make quite a few compromises to do it. Dump the LPL and maybe give it a compact gyro? Would be a good middle of the road between the range of the LRMs and the firepower of the autocannon, plus its Lyran!

[Valtech]

Yeah....my thoughts also. I actually LIKE this mech. Have at least two minis somewhere around here 8)
But I do think it could have been done better... As others have observed, its tonnage may just not be
optimal.

[Wrangler]

Funny, thinking about it i think the 2N variant could have been the model for the Kurita's Shiro.  LRM boats with swords, both heavies.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I’m a little surprised the Lyrans didn’t try to shoehorn a Heavy or Improved Heavy Gauss in as a compromise between the -1N and -2Ns. Though to be fair, you’d probably have to make quite a few compromises to do it. Dump the LPL and maybe give it a compact gyro? Would be a good middle of the road between the range of the LRMs and the firepower of the autocannon, plus its Lyran!

They'd already done that with the Caesar and Barghest.  Those two and the Hollander II seemed to convince them not to bother putting the HGR on anything less than 80 tons.

[SteelRaven]

They'd already done that with the Caesar and Barghest.  Those two and the Hollander II seemed to convince them not to bother putting the HGR on anything less than 80 tons.

There was also the Crusader CRD-8S which is... comical. I love it for it's insanity of 'let slap the largest gun we have on a traditionally explody missile boat!' but this may have been the design that made the Lyrans go 'Wait, stop! We need to put more thought into this.'

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Right, I keep forgetting about that mech.  And then someone ends up reminding me anyway.

My headcanon is that all of them were testbed designs that weren't actually intended for combat but got pressed into service when the FedCom Civil War broke out.

[mbear]

Just for giggles I took someone's idea for a 1N refit and ran with it. For a DCMS MechWarrior, I swapped out the AC for an MRM40 rack and the LPL for a snubPPC, and the axe for a sword...then realized i had created a No-Daichi.

Oh well.