Inner Sphere Streak LRMs (ISS LRMs)

[VanVelding]

I was going through some old designs and found part of some of my old work on Streak LRMs for the Inner Sphere. I wanted to finish and ship it for another project, but I figured it had to be well-worn territory by now and I should look at and credit some of that work. However, it's difficult to find posts on Inner Sphere Streak LRMs through search engines because that specific grouping of words isn't very unique.

Izzy193's work last year was helpful: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=81820.0, but I couldn't find much else.

I only had a Streak LRM 15 (IS) that weighed 11 tons, but had the same heat and crits as its non-streak counterpart.

Assumptions:
-They should operate as well or worse as their Clan counterparts.
-They should be less efficient than their Clan counterparts.
-The relationships between Clan/IS missiles and Streak/non-streak system should be included.
-Larger missile racks should be more efficient than lighter racks. This is a personal one. There are some niche advantages of larger non-streak LRM racks over banked smaller ones, but those diminish when adding Streak abilities.

The derived ISS LRMs:

Code: [Select]

Name          Heat      Min Range SR     MR     LR     Ammo/ton  Tons    Crits
ISS LRM 5      2         6         7     14     21      24        4.0       1
ISS LRM 10     4         6         7     14     21      12        7.5       2
ISS LRM 15     5         6         7     14     21       8       11.0       3
ISS LRM 20     6         6         7     14     21       6       14.5       5

• The ISS LRM 5 is just a better AC/5 and LAC 5 and probably LAC/2 and LPPC as well. LPPC has the longevity, LAC/2 has ammo, and the generic/light ACs can use precision ammunitions, but if you're just looking for consistent damage at range, it's your guy.
• The ISS LRM 10 is very competitive with a PPC. Half the heat, same total damage, but a better range. The PPC has longevity and damage focus, which aren't too shabby. The LB 5-X can still rip off more clusters at a -1 to-hit. It was never very good, but it's not the ISS LRM 10 putting it into the dustbin of history.
• The ISS LRM 15 is putting more damage on target than I'd like, but it's competing with weapons that actually focus damage, like the AC/10 or the UAC/10 or the Heavy PPC. The comparison between PPCs and ACs from the first two parts still apply.
• Most of the weapon systems the ISS LRM 20 are competing with have more focused damage or far more clusters of damage.

Ultimately, I think giving streak abilities this kind of range is very strong. Strong enough, in my humble opinion, that it outweighs a lot of factors. Cluster weapons like the LB 10-X and Silver Bullet Gauss certainly have a place, but one round of good clusters has to compete with being able to take the shot every turn--even on 12's--and hitting on the to-hit curve every time and paying no cost for a miss. I feel like that's a lot more clusters over time, with only a little bit of moderation by AMS and Angel ECM.

I'd rather pare the functioning back, and I'd do it by letting the more-common Guardian ECM cancel the streak abilities of the system.

Anyway, I posted this in the hopes that I get some of the ways other players have implemented this in the past few years.

[Hazard Pay]

Very nice, I’ve given thought to IS Streak LRMs before and these look good.

[Lagrange]

There's a pretty standard approach to streaks across IS, Clan, and SRM/LRM, so there is a pretty strong canonical fill-in.

Heat is always the same.  Missiles/ton is always the same.  Launcher weight weight is +50% of introtech missile system.   Crits are as introtech missile launcher.  That means the only deviation from the suggestion is in terms of tonnage with tonnage being 3/7.5/10.5/15 tons.  All the suggested tonnages are larger except for the ISS 20. 

[Daryk]

The 10 is right on that target...

[Retry]

Should just be a flat 50% weight penalty across the board, so 3/7.5/10.5/15 tons.

[VanVelding]

I linked a set of Inner Sphere Streak LRMs that do the 1.5x weight thing. It's a continuation of the obvious pattern established by Inner Sphere SRMs when converted to Streak SRMs. I was aware of it and have intentionally not done that for what I think are good reasons.

A plain old LRM 20 is useful because it can efficiently benefit from Artemis IV, it generates only 6 heat for 20 missiles, has some benefits with specialty ammo, and is a big, 'swingy' weapon.

An LRM 5, compared to the LRM 20, generates 8 heat for 20 missiles, doesn't interact with specialty ammo quite as well, is less efficient for using with Artemis IV, and I believe they're not as efficient when used on vehicles. But it has fewer tons and crits per missile, it can more finely manage its ammunition, it can fit on smaller platforms, it suffers less from AMS, it costs less, and it pays a smaller cost in ammunition & heat for missed shots (allowing it to shoot on smaller odds to hit).

For standard LRM racks, these sort of cancel out and there are good reasons to take an LRM 20 over a bank of four LRM 5's. If I were a munchkin, I'd gravitate towards the banked LRM 5's, but generally there's good reasons for both, and that how things should work.

Does that make sense? Did I forget some of the factors here?

[Retry]

A streak 20-bank hit forces a PSR under most scenarios, a quad 5-pack can't.  15- and 10-packs are likewise more likely to contribute to a PSR roll against a target than an equivalent number of 5-packs when accounting for supplemental weaponry like AC/5s or medium lasers that are also firing on a target.

[DevianID]

So the off weights of the streak LRMs are a nod towards balance?

So 4 Streak 5s would be 16 tons, 8 heat 4 crits, while the SLRM20 would be 14.5, 6 heat, 5 crits.  It seems the pendulum swung too far the other direction.

The standard convention is 3 tons for a theory Streak IS5, for 12 tons 8 heat 4 slots, and 15 tons 6 heat 5 slots.   1 DHS for the SLRM5 puts it at 13 tons 6 heat 7 slots, so I get the desire to tone down the 5 racks, I just think making the streak5s worse then the 20 is the wrong way to go, as the larger rack is WAY better for PSR damage clustering.

[VanVelding]

I had a reply typed, but I lost it.

Most of the advantages of the LRM 20 are lost when the launchers become streak launchers. There's no Artemis IV advantage. There's no specialty munitions advantage.

The disadvantages of banked LRM 5's is likewise reduced when they become streaks. Heat doesn't matter if not all of your launchers are going to be firing anyway. Anyway, that theoretical 2 heat is nothing in an era that has double heat sinks.

Banked IS SLRM 5's can shoot at discrete targets, manage ammunition to match the threat, take fewer crits, stymie AMS, cost 50% less, and continue firing after taking three crits.

Retry is 100% correct. An SLRM 20 can create a PSR on its own, and because it's a bit unlikely all SLRM 5's will hit for any given shot, they probably won't. That and its efficiency on vehicles (IIRC, each missile rack--5 or 20--takes 1 slot in a vehicle) do give it a niche.

But banked streak LRM 5's are waaay more consistent, and cramming 5 of them into the tonnage and crits of an SLRM 20 makes the 20 all but obsolete. I mean, 4 LRM 5's probably won't all hit and cause a PSR check, but the odds that 5 LRM 5's do the same thing is about 25% higher.

There's no reason for a scaleable system like missiles with streak abilities to have the same default linear progression as non-streak weapons. The qualities of streak missiles are too good. A system in which larger systems are more efficient is not irrational, is it? If we're "over-balancing" the ISS-LRM 5, what system is the ISS-LRM 5 being outclassed by?

[Lagrange]

Why balance IS versions but not Clan versions?

I agree that streak LRMs and the Streak-5 in particular are very good weapons.  A 50% increase in weight for almost double damage, half heat, and half ammo usage is quite a bit for one tech level.  I'm guessing that's why we don't see them in canon.

[VanVelding]

Why balance IS versions but not Clan versions?

I just want to say thanks. Clearly, you think my version of Inner Sphere streak LRMs are so good that I should take a crack at the Clan versions. It's humbling to have someone embrace by work as an enthusiastic fan. Thank you.

But to answer your question:

• I don't control the specs for Clan Streak LRMs.
• Clan weapons are allowed to be a little more effective than their IS counterparts.
• I asked for information about other conversations on Inner Sphere Streak LRMs (still haven't gotten).
• This post isn't about Clan weapons. If you'd like to start a topic that reads, "How would VanVelding fix Clan Streak LRMs?," I'd be happy to comment on that topic.
• Clan Streak LRMs are twice as heavy as their non-streak counterparts, probably because the dramatic effects of streak launchers are multiplied over range. But IDGAF.
• People are pushing back on a 4-ton AC/5 which outranges three different types of AC 5's for being overbalanced; I feel suggestions to change canon weapons would induce tears.

[Red Pins]

Hmm.  Tagged.

[Lagrange]

...

Nice snark.

This comments about clan are making me wonder if the right balance point vs tech level E weapons is x2 rather than x1.5.  Thus tonnages would be 4/10/14/20.

Then using tons = heat/4 for streak and heat/2 for others and 10+ shots for Streak or 20+ for other weapons you have:
IS Streak-5: 5 tons comparable a Light PPC (5.5 tons).  LPPC has range 18 instead of 21 but is not AMS or Angel vulnerable and requires no ammo.
IS Streak-10: 12 tons comparable to an ER-LL (11 tons).  ER-LL does 8 damage instead of 10 and has range 19 instead of 21 but is not AMS or Angel vulnerable, does not cluster hit, and requires no ammo.
IS Streak-15: 16.75 tons comparable to a Gauss (18 tons).  Gauss has range 22 instead of 21, is not AMS or Angel vulnerable, and doesn't cluster hit.
IS Streak-20: 23.5 tons comparable to IHGR (26 tons).  IHGR has range 19 instead of 21 but does 22 instead of 20 damage in nonclusters and is not AMS or Angel vulnerable.

Checks out?

[idea weenie]

Why balance IS versions but not Clan versions?

I see it as Clan Streak LRMs are already written in books, while the IS Streak LRM is still fan tech.

I agree that streak LRMs and the Streak-5 in particular are very good weapons.  A 50% increase in weight for almost double damage, half heat, and half ammo usage is quite a bit for one tech level.  I'm guessing that's why we don't see them in canon.

The smarter Clans should have been doing their best to develop Streak technology for LRMs for the invasion, or at least scrambling the research teams when the first problems with ammo started showing up.  Unless this is the reason why Clan Coyote deployed them in 3057?

The Clans may abhor wasting advanced guidance systems in every missile, but the 1-year long resupply route meant that every ton of cargo was precious.  Carrying Streak missiles means your missile ammo now masses half as much.  Streak guidance systems would not be dezgra as the missiles still require the skill of the pilot to hit, vs wanting to use Artemis to aid the warrior.

[VanVelding]

This comments about clan are making me wonder if the right balance point vs tech level E weapons is x2 rather than x1.5.  Thus tonnages would be 4/10/14/20.
...
Checks out?

As a heuristic, the flat x2 multiplier has at least as much merit as the x1.5. And there's far less nail-biting about being balanced with other weapons.

I wouldn't mind testing those. They've got the same issues with the banked 5's versus 20's, but worth a test.

Generally, I don't know if that gauss rifle number is right, but that's not so important. Rolling heat into rough tonnage to calculate cost of weapons is a good, back of the napkin way to reckon that stuff, but it does miss that 10 double heat sinks dissipate as much or more heat and either of those two groups: SLRMs (17),  LPPCs, ERLL, GR, iHGR (20).

But, generally, a fair comparison.

[Lagrange]

Generally, I don't know if that gauss rifle number is right,

Oh, good point---the number should be 18.  Updated.

Another comparison point is the Thunderbolt which would have tonnages under this rubric of: 6.167/12.83/19.5/25.67.  Not quite as good, essentially because the ammo efficiency declines by a factor of 2 relative to LRMs.