I thought "Monkey Talks" would have been a suiting subtitle.
But some Kindraa are likeable. Example: Matilla Carrol. :)
I thought "Monkey Talks" would have been a suiting subtitle.What exactly makes the Sainzes likable?
But some Kindraa are likeable. Example: Sainzes. :)
What exactly makes the Sainzes likable?
Don't get me wrong: I like the idea and concept behind the Mandrills, but each Kindraa seems like a bunch of jerks to every other Kindraa. None of them strike me as completely neutral.
I think that's kind of the whole idea. The Clans as a whole, reduced into one Clan. It's kind of like the family reunion where nobody gets along because they all think their branch of the family's better, and fights usually break out at Christmastime right after the Scrabble game.Yeah, I've always said the Mandrills are like "the Clans in miniature." That's what makes them interesting.
Kindra Sainze has a bit more badass value than the others. Some slight Kuritan stylings for those that like that too.Oddly enough, Sainze in the very first Kindraa mentioned in the Kindraa lists...
sorry for being difficult, but it looks really good O0Hey, no problem.
kindraa mick kreese kline wil be ilkindraa, you can all be sure of that [rockon]So what exactly is this ilKindraa deal? I glossed over it in FM:U, but I don't think it really said what that actually entails...
Hey, no problem.
I also made a Snow Raven one, if you're interested (but this is entirely the wrong thread for that, naturally).
So what exactly is this ilKindraa deal? I glossed over it in FM:U, but I don't think it really said what that actually entails...
Well, the ilKhan is the supreme, wartime commander-in-chief of the Clans, and the ilClan is the Clan that reaches Terra first.
But the requirements for ilKindraa...? What special achievement -- akin to being elected ilKhan by majority of the Grand Council or winning the ilClan-ship by conquering Terra -- would a Kindraa need to accomplish to be labeled the ilKindraa? Be the first Kindraa to completely control all of their capital world of Shadow after kicking out all the other Kindraa, maybe?
To be 100% honest, I think "ilKindraa" is a B.S. term that one of the Kindraa made up as an excuse to make the other Kindraa feel inferior. It's like two kids playing:
A: I'm the boss.
B: Well then I'm the mega boss!
A: Nuh uh! I'm the ultra mega boss!
B: PSH! I'M the ultra super mega boss to infinity with no takebacks!
Well, the ilKhan is the supreme, wartime commander-in-chief of the Clans, and the ilClan is the Clan that reaches Terra first.
But the requirements for ilKindraa...? What special achievement -- akin to being elected ilKhan by majority of the Grand Council or winning the ilClan-ship by conquering Terra -- would a Kindraa need to accomplish to be labeled the ilKindraa? Be the first Kindraa to completely control all of their capital world of Shadow after kicking out all the other Kindraa, maybe?
To be 100% honest, I think "ilKindraa" is a B.S. term that one of the Kindraa made up as an excuse to make the other Kindraa feel inferior. It's like two kids playing:
A: I'm the boss.
B: Well then I'm the mega boss!
A: Nuh uh! I'm the ultra mega boss!
B: PSH! I'M the ultra super mega boss to infinity with no takebacks!
I was under the impression that, like an ilKhan or an ilClan, there can only be ONE ilKindraa at any given time.
Proclaiming one's Kindraa to be an ilKindraa just because they say so sounds like a complete load of jetwash.
Joe, you could be... Fire Mandrill Loremaster!And not for lack of trying... ;D
I agree with the person that said it was an UBer Kindraa. We know from FM Updates that two major Kindraa are formed. One I know for sure is based around the Paynes, but I can't remember what the other one is based aroundLet me break it down for you: the "major" Kindraa formed aren't very big.
Let me break it down for you: the "major" Kindraa formed aren't very big.You forgot the Mattila-Carrol kindraa at 3 frontline clusters and two 2nd line.
As of FM:U, here's the scoop:
Sainze has 5 Clusters -- 3 frontline, 2 second line.
Payne-Beyl-Grant, the first so-called ilKindraa, fields only 4 Clusters -- 2 frontline, 2 second line.
Faraday-Tanaga has 4 Clusters, 3 of them frontline.
Mick-Kreese-Kline, the other ilKindraa candidate has 6 Clusters, but only two of them are frontline, and one Cluster (mostly Elementals) is on permanent station in a WarShip (as marines, I wonder?).
Now, if the only requirement for ilKindraa is Touman size, then Payne-Beyl Grant has no place calling themselves an ilKindraa.
However, if the requirement is not just Touman size but also Touman quality, the Sainzes have everyone beat, followed by the Faraday-Tanagas, and yet neither of these Kindraa have started calling themselves an ilKindraa.
Also you are in error regard the Mick-Kreese-Kline, it's four frontline and two 2nd lineHow do you figure?
I love how Faraday-Tanaga engages in selective breeding with the scientists.
In that Kindraa...Einsteins get used as studs. So stay in school kids.
istal said it, also remember the sainze's have had to mix freeborn genes for breeding, so it gets done if necessaryThat was just so they wouldn't have any inbreeding problems.
Much like the Ravens and the Sharks make me wish I hadn't loaned out the Warden Clans FM years ago, the Fire Mandrills are one of the main forces that make me wish I hadn't loaned out the Crusader Clans book (to the same person). I kinda think of them as the Battletech equivalent to the Warhammer 40K Orks. And I say that as a fan of the greeniez.I'm guessing the person you loaned them to either moved away or lost touch?
I'm guessing the person you loaned them to either moved away or lost touch?
That was just so they wouldn't have any inbreeding problems.
The Mandrills REALLY need to get out more.
Joe is right, it's not about size. It's about two Kindraa coming together. In both cases it's happened when one Kindraa seemed on the verge of falling.
Well, there was a whole fan article about Mandrill mech choices, though its yet to be reposted (and I don't expect it will be, given the author's view on the matter). Just use a bunch of Crimson Languars and Warhawks and call it good. Back em with Salamanders if you want to be a bit more two dimensional, and Scythas if you want to be three dimensional (Trace will probably repost the Clan fighter articles before too long, which did have a Mandrill entry).
Warriors of Kerensky goes for upwards of $80?? Yikes.Yeah, I don't understand that. I currently see 2 copies on amazon for about $15 (and two for ~$75), but they are marked as "acceptable," which means they're probably on the verge of falling apart.
Honestly? No idea. I'd say the best way to determine that is to look at a Mandrills RAT and look at the discussions of tactics for various Kindraa or Clusters as delineated in FM:CC and then extrapolate from there. For example, if a given Cluster favors quick strikes, their Star Colonel and Star Captains probably aren't going to be piloting assault 'Mechs (and probably not heavies, either, but that's a matter of preference).
Amanda Carrol prefers 'fast mediums' and her command unit is entirely such mechs. Pre-Crimson Languar, it leaves us with something like a Shadow Cat, or maybe a Stormcrow, as leading contenders, though it could be anything, or even change from time to time. Samantha Kline almost surely pilots a Warhawk or Summoner, or just very possibly an Adder, since thouse are the only three omnis her Kindraa makes (or made) and the warriors are noted to have a lot of familiarity with them, leading to PSR bonuses, indicating that typical Klines don't tend to take other omnis even if they have the chance. Garett Sainze pilots a mech with MASC, at least as of FM:CC, because the entire command star is thus equiped. That would tend to indicate a Shadow Cat or an Executioner, but its not out of the qustion that the Kindraa leader of the largest Kindraa has been able to pull some strings to have MASC put on some other mech, since he know that the Hellions did it for some lowly bondsman's Pouncer (see TRO55U). The Beyl-Grant second in command Dora Beyl pilots a Scytha fighter, so its not a bad pick for Bodee Beyl, either, since it shows that its a respected enough ride in the Kindraa, but its the most of a guess of any of these.
There was a canon senerio that pitted the Mandrills against the Scorpions and depected many of the Clan leadership (in as much as such a thing exists) but I have almost no information about it, having not been there. Someone who was may be able to answer as to the verious Mandrills' rides. You may want to start a new thread to attract attention if you care enough about it.
Thread necromancy in full flux... Someone has to do it, so why not me. Careful; I may have flung some poo once or thrice. >:D :o 8) :o
I'm a fan of the doomed Kindraa Mick-Krease-Kline-Sainze. Technically, the whole Clan is doomed, but MKKS doesn't even get to have its remnants absorbed by the merciful Blood Spirits. Poof, they just die...
I always though they had the best names for Naval Units:
1. Jungle Heat/Fire Eater -Sovetskii Soyuz-class Heavy Cruiser
2. Reaver Potemkin-class Troop Cruiser
3. Rage Lola III-class Destroyer
4. Anathma Lola III-class Destroyer
5. Rancor Lola III-class Destroyer
6. Firetender Vincent Mk. 42-class Corvette
7. Firehold Carrack-class Transport
Just when you thought the poop flingers were dead and forgotten
I am putting together a Kindraa Mick kreese force and I need aero fighter suggestions: the kindraa is noted for its expertise in naval and upper atomsophere fighting. What aero fighters do you all suggest from the front line Omni fighter bench?
You can't go wrong with Turks and Visigoths.
Thanks I am having a hard time with camp specs lately does any one have aero or warship Picts of mick kreese you can share?
I think it might be down, I know there were several complaints about it from users here.
The more I look into it, the Hydaspes looks like a Mandrill style fighter. That, and the Kirghiz is also listed as having various manufacturers. I think these are up your alley. Check them out yourself.
Something that I reread recently was that their economy was very underdeveloped and or inefficient. Would that be because the various kindraa due to feuds etc would not trade with each other and would then have to seek what should have been accessible from an outside Clan?
How they became as strong as they did by Operation Revival we may never know. The Mandrills had built up an impressive Touman, only to squander it through inter-kindraa fighting over every aspect of the invasion and the trials that led up to it.
The Fire Mandrill clan profiles in Warriors of Kerensky and Op Klondike indicate that the warriors were strong enough to take enough of what they needed, and that the Clan's merchants - the least factionalised caste - took care of the rest, especially thanks to a good working relationship with the Diamond Sharks.
It's not outright stated, but reading between the lines I get the impression the Mandrills collectively opted for a mix of Smoke Jaguar and Blood Spirit methods (brute force + Shark assistance) in keeping their economy going and boosting their touman to its Revival-level. It could also be that the Sharks subtly aided the Mandrills and Spirits in boosting their toumans, knowing that neither Clan would ever be strong enough to be a real power but could still pose a threat to the Sharks' enemies (e.g the Jaguar-Mandrill enmity pre-3059).
Mandrill Warriors were definitely examples of "Survival is a matter of practice." Since even by CLAN Standards they are fighting ALL THE TIME, what with inter-Kindraa battles, Mandrill Warriors tend to be badass.
You guessed it already. Take advantage of all those dropship docking colars and give the Potemkin its own fleet of assault droppers and Titan carriers to protect it from the hazards of life in the Clan Homeworlds.
That's one of the reasons why I love the Mandrills so much (and why they're my former favourite Homeworld Clan). There's a lot more diversity within them then the other, relatively monoculture block, Clans. They're less one people as they're a group of different people pointed in vaugely the same direction.
They're the inbred backwoods redneck hillbillies of the Clans, with all that entails. And I love it.
Same! I really disliked them for a long time but their bone deep loyalty to their few allies and as you said diverse touman makes them very cool. However I just don’t see how could have survived the reavings the mandrills could and did do well in a zell focused environment but once conflict really escalated how could they have kept up?
That's one of the reasons why I love the Mandrills so much (and why they're my former favourite Homeworld Clan). There's a lot more diversity within them then the other, relatively monoculture block, Clans. They're less one people as they're a group of different people pointed in vaugely the same direction.
They're the inbred backwoods redneck hillbillies of the Clans, with all that entails. And I love it.
i thought it might be in the same place as where people found what the blood spirits leaders piloted or the adder leaders piloted. i don't have either of those however so i thought the info might be out there somewhere, and for some reason i think it is
Two part question:
1) with their divided and “inefficient” economy were the various mandril kindraa more resource strapped then the blood spirits?
2) did all kindraa eventual adopt protos? What about the elitist kindraa that only used one phenotype?
IMHO, the Nightlord would have been too large. The Kindraa were about the size of one Galaxy, and each kindraa was spread out to cover their territory. If there were a smaller ship that carried only a cluster's worth of troops that would have been great for them.
York supports 50 fighters, with two hard points. So mounting one Overlord and Sassanid a would be a great way to move an advance cluster of a Kindraa.
The other option is to "find" and upgrade an old Robinson. Though I have the feeling that non made it with the exodus fleet. Too bad, they have some real potential.
IMHO, the Nightlord would have been too large. The Kindraa were about the size of one Galaxy, and each kindraa was spread out to cover their territory. If there were a smaller ship that carried only a cluster's worth of troops that would have been great for them.
If there were a smaller ship that carried only a cluster's worth of troops that would have been great for them.
2) There's no information on which Kindraas did and didn't use ProtoMechs. I thinkl it's fiar to say that they all did however
York supports 50 fighters, with two hard points. So mounting one Overlord and Sassanid a would be a great way to move an advance cluster of a Kindraa.
The other option is to "find" and upgrade an old Robinson. Though I have the feeling that non made it with the exodus fleet. Too bad, they have some real potential.
I dig the robinson but what about the comitus clan jump ship? Would that fit the bill?
York supports 50 fighters, with two hard points. So mounting one Overlord and Sassanid a would be a great way to move an advance cluster of a Kindraa.
The other option is to "find" and upgrade an old Robinson. Though I have the feeling that non made it with the exodus fleet. Too bad, they have some real potential.
Nightlord: same but bigger.
Steal it. No declare a Trial of Possession for it I'd be aiming for the Dark Asp, no one likes the Vipers. The Scorpions Atropos would be my second choice
One of my favorite aspects of the warship part of battletech is the names of the warships. As I am looking to expand my mick kreese fleet I am
Seeking suggestions for warship names. Canon mandrill ships tend towards flame or anger related ones such as: rancor and fireeater
Here are some off the top of my head:
Silverback
Primal instinct
King Louie
Much like the Ravens and the Sharks make me wish I hadn't loaned out the Warden Clans FM years ago, the Fire Mandrills are one of the main forces that make me wish I hadn't loaned out the Crusader Clans book (to the same person). I kinda think of them as the Battletech equivalent to the Warhammer 40K Orks. And I say that as a fan of the greeniez.
Keeping the Mandril flame alive, I see. Too bad they couldn't keep their shit together, it would have been fun to have them in Revival.
Keeping the Mandril flame alive, I see. Too bad they couldn't keep their shit together, it would have been fun to have them in Revival.
Kindra Sainze has a bit more badass value than the others. Some slight Kuritan stylings for those that like that too.
Don't know. The Mandrils only had just enough about them in various write-ups to make people more curious about how they got on day-to-day.
Due to their aero bias and fairly weak ground game I would think kindraa mick kreese would have been all about the protomech.
Which protos would be good to support a strong air wing?
Bumping this up: I am finally painting again! I want to divide the 1st gen protos I have and give them mainly to the my kindraa mick kreese to bulk out my ground force. So amongst the first gen protos what would have been a good match for a strong aero power?
York supports 50 fighters, with two hard points. So mounting one Overlord and Sassanid a would be a great way to move an advance cluster of a Kindraa.
The other option is to "find" and upgrade an old Robinson. Though I have the feeling that non made it with the exodus fleet. Too bad, they have some real potential.
That's true... Captured Mandrills were a special breed, always chafing under their new command because they expected to get rescued any minute...
I am curious what that would look like? Would the warrior be striding about bragging about the glory of the mandrills rather than being subdued? Would a captive mandrill outright refuse an order?
Keeping the Mandril flame alive, I see. Too bad they couldn't keep their shit together, it would have been fun to have them in Revival.
That would be about the only way.
Or, the Mandrills could be ahead of their time, and be the first Clan to pull up stakes and move their entire Clan to the Inner Sphere.
The IS would never get rid of the Fire Mandrill scourge! And it would keep the Kindraa busy. The Khan could declare a moratorium on inter-kindraa fighting during the move. Give them the Jaguar corridor, I'm sure the Combine would love to have the Mandrills for neighbors.
I wonder how they would have done?? If the whole clan came their diversity wound have been a great assest but if they had a Luthien level battle...? Any division would have ruined them’
That would be about the only way.
Or, the Mandrills could be ahead of their time, and be the first Clan to pull up stakes and move their entire Clan to the Inner Sphere.
The IS would never get rid of the Fire Mandrill scourge! And it would keep the Kindraa busy. The Khan could declare a moratorium on inter-kindraa fighting during the move. Give them the Jaguar corridor, I'm sure the Combine would love to have the Mandrills for neighbors.
I think early on the ultra elite mandrills would have done well and the year of peace could have forced their clever merchants to rehab IS factories. Remember depending on the kindraa the mandrills where pretty low tech so keeping or upgrading factories would I presume have helped the local economies.... however Unless they also started standing up a bunch of garrison or solahma quality garrisons I don’t see how they could have dealt with ongoing rebellions.
Steal it. No declare a Trial of Possession for it I'd be aiming for the Dark Asp, no one likes the Vipers. The Scorpions Atropos would be my second choice
The one thing the Mandrils were good at was fighting. They built up their Tourman by the same way the similarity economically crippled Jaguars did; by being good at beating people up and taking their stuff.
I don’t have my field manual in front of me can anyone tell what warships kindraa Kline controlled?
Did Kindraa Sainze have any Warships?
Cause we can't have a Mick Kreese and Kline without a Sainze, now can we? ;D
None, at least not until they merged with Mick-Kreese.
At that point they gained the Potemkin-class Fire-Eater/Jungle Heat and Lola III-class Rancor.
Surprisingly enough, no, Sainze didn't control any. Breakdown as of FM: Crusader Clans/Updates was:
Beyl-Grant: Firehold, née Howler, and Anathema
Mick-Kreese: Jungle Heat, née Fire-Eater, and Rancor
Payne: Reaver
Faraday-Tanaga: Firetender
Matilla-Carrol: Rage
But from the FM entry, it sounds like Sainze *should* have controlled one of the WarShips, at least at some point.
As one of the big three, this means that either they failed their initial Trial of Possession for a WarShip or lost it after the fact in a Trial against Matilla-Carrol.
No prob, I've been doing a lot of reading on the Mandrills and the info was still fresh in my head.
Prob gonna paint up at least a star of Kickstarter 'Mechs in their colors; the Mandrills are one of the rare factions to gain early and constant access to the Turkina and Fire Falcon...and I find the idea of painting up a Mandrill force a lot more interesting then doing a generic Falcon one.
Surprisingly enough, no, Sainze didn't control any. Breakdown as of FM: Crusader Clans/Updates was:
Beyl-Grant: Firehold, née Howler, and Anathema
Mick-Kreese: Jungle Heat, née Fire-Eater, and Rancor
Payne: Reaver
Faraday-Tanaga: Firetender
Matilla-Carrol: Rage
But from the FM entry, it sounds like Sainze *should* have controlled one of the WarShips, at least at some point.
As one of the big three, this means that either they failed their initial Trial of Possession for a WarShip or lost it after the fact in a Trial against Matilla-Carrol.
And we can always use you back in the Shark Fox fold! Lol 8)
Would the aero focused kindraa likely also have the lions share of transport and assault droppers? Would that also be a main way for these kindraa to strengthen themselves? Provide transport and escort for other kindraa?
Do we ever get presented with details on when/where/how the Lola III Rage (Mattila-Carol) was captured by the Coyotes? We see the Rage as part of Tamaron's defense in a couple battles as part of the Coyote fleet.
It'd settle for a probabilistic engagement or situation in that era where it might have happened, even if not mentioned directly.
Eh, I'm having trouble with that these days. These days I find that they're little more than Clan Plot Device, and I'm not finding that super inspiring. Now, if there were to be a product like TP:Hanseatic Crusade, but for the Chainelanes, then I'd be intrigued.
It doesn't look like multi-Kindraa operations were ever much of a thing, so even if the Aero Kindraa had more dropships, I doubt they'd rent them out too often.
That might be part of what held the Mandrills back—the Aero Kindraa were forced to engage with other Aero-focused Clusters, Galaxies, or Clans in order to leverage their strengths, while the ground-based Kindraa would have to have operated in the opposite way. That would make focused campaigns against most Clans difficult, to say the least.
Here's a mental challenge for everybody. How could the writers have changed the Fire Mandrills to make them a more active and more successful Clan? That could mean going all the way back to pre-FM: CC and fleshing them out from their introduction to the universe, or maybe something that they did or changed at any point in their history.
Key limitation, can't do away with the Kindraa concept. Think of that as a defining pillar of the Clan that you can't remove.
Success in this is rated by changing the fewest things, yet having a big impact.
I would have a strong willed leader such as Amanda Caroll come to power sooner, such as right before Revival. This leader would impose a moratorium on infighting until after the Revival trials.
Get the Mandrills in the invasion of the Inner Sphere, and it changes their outcome. They don't just fade away during the Wars of Reaving, because now they are an Invader Clan instead of a self-defeating bystander.
Here's a mental challenge for everybody. How could the writers have changed the Fire Mandrills to make them a more active and more successful Clan? That could mean going all the way back to pre-FM: CC and fleshing them out from their introduction to the universe, or maybe something that they did or changed at any point in their history.
Key limitation, can't do away with the Kindraa concept. Think of that as a defining pillar of the Clan that you can't remove.
Success in this is rated by changing the fewest things, yet having a big impact.
How about kindraa smythe Jewell playing ur safer? They would have continued to build the rapport with spirits and that would have benefited both clans
Smythe-Jewell knew that the small fish needed to swim together, and acted accordingly.
How I'd fix the Mandrills? I'd still have them be divided and infighting however I'd also have them retain a little more perspective. So it'd be Me vs my sibkin, Me and my Sibkin vs my star, me and my star vs my trinary me and my trinary vs my kindraa and me and my kindraa vs my clan, And eventually me and my clan vs the other clans.
The Mandrills should be treated as like a hornets nest by the rest of the clans. Leave them alone and they'll sting each other. Stick your nose into their business and every single one of them will drop whatever petty fights they're having with each other and turn on you and make you wish you never bothered.
I would have a strong willed leader such as Amanda Caroll come to power sooner, such as right before Revival. This leader would impose a moratorium on infighting until after the Revival trials.
Get the Mandrills in the invasion of the Inner Sphere, and it changes their outcome. They don't just fade away during the Wars of Reaving, because now they are an Invader Clan instead of a self-defeating bystander.
How could a strong mandrill leader have imposed their will? Duel any kindraa leader to ensure they would back their plans?
I don't think we technically have answers to those questions but here's the snippets I can find.
In FM: Warden Clans.
Clan Coyote's 50th Assault Cluster (Epsilon Galaxy) was on Huntress and won ProtoMech samples from Kindraa Mattila-Carrol. That puts Mattila-Carrol on Huntress during the scramble period to get ProtoMech tech.
FM: Updates details some changes to the composition of Fire Mandrill units, like the addition of tanks in some units or a reorganization in general due to casualties and the consolidation of several Kindraa, but protos aren't mentioned as far as I can see.
The Delphyne ProtoMech is noted as a Blood Spirit/Fire Mandrill project with the majority of them deployed among Kindraa Payne-Beyl-Grant. One of the notable warriors in TRO 3075 is Warrior Ando. From the description he was of Kindraa Payne and was among the Payne forces that moved to aid Beyl-Grant against Sainze. He was wounded, physical and mental damage from fighting a Mandrill Mandrill 'mech one-on-one and taking it out. But afterward it seems like he went crazy.
I don't think we technically have answers to those questions but here's the snippets I can find.
In FM: Warden Clans.
Clan Coyote's 50th Assault Cluster (Epsilon Galaxy) was on Huntress and won ProtoMech samples from Kindraa Mattila-Carrol. That puts Mattila-Carrol on Huntress during the scramble period to get ProtoMech tech.
FM: Updates details some changes to the composition of Fire Mandrill units, like the addition of tanks in some units or a reorganization in general due to casualties and the consolidation of several Kindraa, but protos aren't mentioned as far as I can see.
The Delphyne ProtoMech is noted as a Blood Spirit/Fire Mandrill project with the majority of them deployed among Kindraa Payne-Beyl-Grant. One of the notable warriors in TRO 3075 is Warrior Ando. From the description he was of Kindraa Payne and was among the Payne forces that moved to aid Beyl-Grant against Sainze. He was wounded, physical and mental damage from fighting a Mandrill Mandrill 'mech one-on-one and taking it out. But afterward it seems like he went crazy from his wounds.
The favoritism/bias and source material in print about just those 3 clans is more than the other clans combined I'd wager. As a fan since the 80's, it's pretty boring being a Mandrill fan or a fan of most clans when all attention goes to those 3.
It can be argued in a significant way that the Mandrills are THE most varied, interesting, and RP friendly clan with the various kindrasc/kindraa, political possibilities, leadership styles, ambitions, etc.
And all this despite containing MechWarriors who were nearly always fighting, training, and gaining continual experience against each other clans and against themselves. They have the best of the best MechWarriors of any clan pound for pound.
All this talk about a dead and clueless clan.
Reminds me of the unknown Golden Book I have :
Curious George pilots a Battlemech!
TT
I bet the Home Clans have resurrected the bloodlines. It's not at all the same, but it is life.
Coyote Mick Kreeses!
Well yeah, but that's because the Mandrills were never written to be a major player.
They were there to act as a foil to the successful Clans, an example of how the factionalism and competitive nature of the Clans could easily overtake them and lead them to failure. Expecting the writers to then have them charge towards victory after victory, or change their fundamental "shtick" by having them unify under the leadership of a great Khan, would go against the very core of the faction's identity itself.
Though you can be sure that things might have happened differently had the player base rallied itself around the Mandrills and made them the most popular homeworld Clan. But...that didn't happen, and so there was no reason for the developer to expand on a faction that proved to be largely unpopular.
This I *hard* disagree with. The Cloud Cobras, with their Cloisters, are a fantastic backdrop to set a roleplaying adventure in. Same goes for the Snow Ravens and their penchant towards political intrigue, or the Goliath Scorpions and their many unique rituals and seeking traditions. Or any Clan, really. The only thing that sets the Mandrills apart is their divisiveness, something that can be largely reproduced with the Crusader/Warden split that affected many Clans.
Which only shows the lesson that fighting ability is worth nothing if you don't have the leadership or technology to back it up.
And look, I like the Mandrills. I think they're fun and flavorful, just like the other smaller Clans that I enjoy. They've got fantastic paint schemes, and access to some pretty neat and unusual designs. But I do accept that they were never meant to be more than just a mook Clan, and that's a-ok.
The way it was written was very anti-realistic if compared to real-world examples with similar societal structures. Yes, yes, BT is a fictional world and it ain't real. However...
Iron Age Germanic and Celtic tribes are identical to the clans in so many ways. Same society norms. Fractious nature. Heroic values of prowess and victory in battle. The most prestigious body of warriors leads. Resembling a semi-feudal society where warriors are at the top and all other beneath them, etc. Despite these clan type societies, leaders could emerge to gather them together for the common good:
- Vercingetorix united many opposing Celtic tribes at the battle of Gergovia handing Julius Caesar a serious defeat and even out maneuvered him to cut of his supply lines during campaign. And against at the siege of Alesia in 52 BC the warriors were assembled.
- Arminaz (Arminius) at Teutoberg assembled warriors of various Germanic tribes for one purpose. And later wiped out legions of the Romans enemy in 16 AD
- Pontiac handed the US army it's greatest defeat ever in the Indian Wars in 1792 at St. Clair (a greater Indian victory than Little Big Horn) by assembling a confederacy of tribal warriors against a common threat.
Yet we're just accept the Fire Mandrills are inexplicably of less strategic awareness than Iron Age man? It's hard to just ignore such a glaring flaw, especially with oblivion knocking on their doorstep the Mandrills just do nothing? Seems like a "deus ex machina" just to get rid of them - and other clans - from lore. Which is the writers prerogative, of course. But can't they give something more sensible, or logical, to the story line in some way?
Fight intern, unit against external threat can work.
Would make for a force that is VERY good at duels and small unit operations, but has issues coordinating large trip movements and operation at the strategic and grand tactical level. Would make for an interesting clan.
Fight intern, unit against external threat can work.
Would make for a force that is VERY good at duels and small unit operations, but has issues coordinating large trip movements and operation at the strategic and grand tactical level. Would make for an interesting clan.
Yet the Kindraa station their own troops on the bigger WarShips. It is as though they owned them.
This is one of the areas, I believe they shot themselves in the foot. The Warship fleet should have always been manned by a mix Kindraa to prevent a polarization of the Clan's strongest asset. The same goes for their Merchant fleet. Let the Kindraa be Kindraa, but let the larger functions of trade and warship protection be centrally controlled.
Just a thought: IDK how submissions for the BT magazine go about but if you want a Fire Mandrill Story that would be the way to do it IMO.
IIRC (and I’m actually reading thru WoR currently) their was one FM cluster that got absorbed by the Spirits (?) or the Hellions/Scorpions because they were the last survivors on one of the planets. The fact that the four Homeworld Clans are using their Bloodlines and that their might be isorla units (or descendants of said units) means not everything is dead after all.
I mean I’m also a big Wolverine fan and we got booted first lol
I do love Fire Mandrill’s comparisons of the historic populations to Clan Fire Mandrill. Well put IMO.
IIRC (and Im actually reading thru WoR currently) their was one FM cluster that got absorbed by the Spirits (?) or the Hellions/Scorpions because they were the last survivors on one of the planets
Some Fire Mandrils were definetly rescued by the Scopions in WoR. I have one FM mechwarrior and one FM Salamander Elemental in one of my Imperio Watch units.
Some Fire Mandrils were definetly rescued by the Scopions in WoR. I have one FM mechwarrior and one FM Salamander Elemental in one of my Imperio Watch units.
Do you recall which blood lines?
The Scorpions only managed to make contact with Fire Mandrill Star Colonel Hampton
Schroeder near Folke. The few Mandrill survivors [note these were mostly warriors, scientists, and technicians –SK] were crammed into every available space on the Hephaestus and her DropShips, and Star Colonel Schroeder agreed to the Absorption-style offer made by the Scorpion Khan. A brief Trial of Possession was fought between the two leaders,
with Suvorov knocking the Star Colonel unconscious after going several rounds in a boxing match.
I was just wondering about this very thing. So some Mandrills did make it to the Scorpions. Looks like the Scorps have their own little UN going there. Fire Mandrills, Ice Hellions, Light Horsemen, Castillians, Umayyads, and now Hansa.
Thought of the day.
Of all the exclusive bloodlines covered in the Warden Clans and Crusader Clans Field Manuals, I thought the Jannik bloodline of the Fire Mandrills has been the most unmentioned and ignored, never getting a named character or Field Manual entry or sourcebook entry anywhere as far as I know. Aside from it appearing in the Exclusive bloodnames list for that Clan, then getting a founder listing in Operation Klondike where all the original 800ish Clan warriors are listed by Clan, you wouldn't know the Jannik bloodname existed at all.
That is one of the beautiful things about OP Klondike: those Bloodname lists give any Clan Player a variety of names to pull from generating characters (obvious!) with names never heard of in canon or names that barely get mentioned!
That fact that it’s an exclusive FM Bloodline IS curious though especially with the various kindraa being .... well named for their Bloodlines.
[Drops Grenade in chat] How are people not talking about the fact Ray and Cubby confirmed in a recent interview that the FM are the IlClan? :D
Again I feel like a mandrill character would be a goldmine from an role playing angle. I can imagine a mandrill bragging about how many does it took to bring them down AND then brag about how much of a pain they were to their bond holders
While I assume each clan teaches their own that they are bees knees would this be extra pronounced amongst the mandrills? Just CONSTANTLY bragging about their culture and blood lines?
Wonder if the Fire Mandrils will expand enough in the Scorpion Empire to to create their own Galaxy similar to the Ice Hellions and the Eridani Light Horse.
It's always possible, but I would think one could infer something from me not making a Mandrill Galaxy or using any of their Bloodnames in OTP: Hanseatic Crusade. :-\
I always figured the Mandrill Bloodnames will be scattered and split. Like ALL of the Homies have a Sainze or two. Or Payne is a Coyote name.
With their ultra aggressive nature could these mandrill bloodnames become successful enough to reestablish their blood houses ?Technically as long as there are warriors alive of a bloodhouse and someone is using the genetic material for breeding then the bloodhouse doesn't need to be reestablished. Wars of Reaving left things a little uncertain on that front. The Clan and the Kindraa are gone (a portion of Matilla-Carrol on Niles was absorbed by the Spirits in 3073, the remains of Faraday-Tanaga on Atreus in 3073 were also absorbed by the Spirits)
The one thing the Mandrils were good at was fighting. They built up their Tourman by the same way the similarity economically crippled Jaguars did; by being good at beating people up and taking their stuff.
Did the mandrills from say the two Aero focused kindraa ever develop a colonization arm?
Question - the members of Clan Spaniel are said to be drawn from various species that the Clans view as pets, so as not to give offense to any Clan. However, the bad guys of the show are the five tribes of Evil Monkeys. How would a member of Clan Fire Mandrill view the persistent use of monkeys in the cultural villain role, given that the Mandrill is classified as the largest of the various monkey species? Are they okay with it as long as the "evil monkeys" don't have striped noses and other Mandrill characteristics?
Are they okay with it as long as the "evil monkeys" don't have striped noses and other Mandrill characteristics?
Per field manual updates: task force serpent was left with with several badly damaged but possible my still serviceable jag warships which they scuttled. Due to their independent nature could a kindraa have attempted to fight for and claim these wrecks?
Per field manual updates: task force serpent was left with with several badly damaged but possible my still serviceable jag warships which they scuttled. Due to their independent nature could a kindraa have attempted to fight for and claim these wrecks?They could have, but what to do with thiese spacehulks? Mandrills did not have the naval yards to repair them.
I wonder if they were even aware. Damaged warships are costly to repair and for a resource strapped Clan like the Mandrills would impose a major burden for little benefit. It could even be claimed by a rival Kindraa once completed for a net loss. It would be different if they could outmatch a peer like the Hellions (with their McKenna) or Blood Spirits but one or two Jaguar Warships will hardly move the needle.
I know the blood spirits developed the proto pilot bloodlines at some point after 3060 but did the mandrills and in particular the kindraa mick kreese do so as well?
Absolutely. But the, the Clans do have that capability. Just build more Iron Wombs. Or buy them from the Shark Foxes...
Definitely the Kindraa leader.
FYI Raymond sainze founder of that kindraa is a POV in the founding of the clans novel! Spoiler alert he comes of as an aloof jerk lol
I mean you would be too if you were kidnapped and dragged hundreds of light years away to then start a new civilization away from everyone and everything you ever knew. I’m just surprised after seeing him in character that he didn’t join the Pentagon Powers during their wars against the Clans.
Clan Monkey hate Hell's Horses
Clan Monkey hate stupid Coyotes too
Clan Monkey very silly Clan
With kindraa tearing themselves apart
Clan Monkey hate you
Question. Which Kindraa would you say was the most successful?
Note that wrote successful, not favorite.
I'm not going to elaborate on that question. Feel free to put your own twist on it. I know this will involve a healthy dose of opinion and that's ok.
and got crushed by the Horses and Coyotes.
It would also be interesting to know which Kindraa is most favourite, too.
Steal it. No declare a Trial of Possession for it I'd be aiming for the Dark Asp, no one likes the Vipers. The Scorpions Atropos would be my second choice
Atropos I think would be the best target. For good or ill the mandrills saw the scorpions as easy prey. If the nightlord is the target of trial of possession can it also be bid in defense?
Yes. Clans don't do ante.
But if say the mandrills bid a star of aero fighters and scorps bid a warship in defense wouldn’t that be a huge disgrace for the defending clan?
Which Kindraa would you say treated freeborn warriors the best?
This question occurred to me and I thought I knew the answer. But after digging through FM: CC again, I'm not so sure. Sainze allowed freeborns with some trueborn ancestry to become warriors and in keeping with their elitist attitudes, regarded their own freeborns as better than the Trueborns of other Kindraa. But according to FM: CC there was a general acceptance of Freeborns among Kindraa Kline, which as a standalone statement sounds the most freeborn friendly statement I can find in the Fire Mandrill section of FM: CC.
Faraday-Tanaga allows a handful of freeborns to become warriors each year and the competition is fierce. It doesn't speak to how they are treated or regarded, and I could see a case being made either way. You could argue that Faraday-Tanaga is fairly typical of the freeborn bias, with freeborns being rare and generally consigned to the less prestigious assignments, or that because they put their freeborns through such a selective process, that they are generally very capable and so well-regarded.
All of the other Kindraa except Payne seem to use freeborn warriors. But their attitudes toward them vary and strike me as routine among Clans that use freeborn warriors. As in they allowed a certain number of freeborn warriors but the opportunities vary depending on the Kindraa's specializations and available slots not taken up by the Kindraa's most prestigious trueborn bloodlines. Most serve in second line units except those that prove truly exceptional.
So for me I feel like the answer lies somewhere between Sainze, Kline and possibly Faraday-Tanaga, with the latter being the most speculative.
No prob, I've been doing a lot of reading on the Mandrills and the info was still fresh in my head.
Prob gonna paint up at least a star of Kickstarter 'Mechs in their colors; the Mandrills are one of the rare factions to gain early and constant access to the Turkina and Fire Falcon...and I find the idea of painting up a Mandrill force a lot more interesting then doing a generic Falcon one.
Apparently the vipers dissed the mandrills hard for their flop during the revival trials which then led to a general feud between them. The only time I can see when the mandrills could have trialed for the dark asp would have been after the Hejira war... kindraa mick kreese which was naval focused and “ very ambitious “ had a Lola and Potemkin under its control would a beaten and bitter viper clan which had just been kicked out of their OZ would they be willing to accept a trial for their flagship?
As each clan was assigned their first caches did the various kindraa fight to divide them
Further?
Probably: theirs not a lot of fiction surrounding that opening era of the Clans, and what we have is mainly from other Clans viewpoints: the Mandrils are lucky to have at least Raymond Sainze’s viewpoint in the Founding of the Clans series.
They probably trialed for their respective Kindraa’s or the IlKindraa (?) aka the Khans, divided it up ‘evenly’
I wanted to put this in a separate post because it's a different sub-topic and more of a theoretical/hypothetical.
As a hypothetical. It occurred to me that it would have been funny if the Fire Mandrills had ended up being the most politically divided, and militarily divided Clan, but very strong economically for a weird reason.
The Clans as of the 3050s/3060s have a top-down structured economy. Even things like money are really just credit constructs given to the lower castes for up to 3 months before they are reclaimed by the Clan (the book Warriors of Kerensky covers this). A few Clans like the Sharks drift away from this with an emphasis on trade and greater use of higher finance and in general their merchants being granted more liberties to pursue business ventures of all stripes. But overall it's a top-down economy, which means it isn't always the most efficient. It's a government body deciding how much can be done/achieved and putting that into work quotas for workers of various castes, instead of a free-market economy pushing the margins to see what can be achieved through competition and pure innovation. This was one of the things the scientists complained about as the Society gave shape in the book Wars of Reaving, they pointed out that they had stopped being true scientists long ago. It was all about incremental growth, not exponential innovation or true discovery through science.
It would have been amusing if the Mandrills had been the Clan that had the closest thing to a capitalist economy. The reason being, economic competition by the various Kindraa adding another layer of competition on top of what exists between Clans.
Think corporation A competing against corporation B and that competition making them sharper, more innovative, more economic growth. That's already going on to some extent between Clans. But in the Fire Mandrills, there's a whole additional layer of competition there between the Kindraa. Because of that, (here's the hypothetical what-if) they were forced to de-couple more parts of their economy from their government structure and let the merchants and scientists grab a bunch of the technicians and laborers and run wild with it. Effectively creating some corporate entities (by whatever name) within each Kindraa under looser Clan supervision.
I'm not suggesting they would have been an incredibly top tier powerful Clan. Just that it would have been amusing if over time they had picked up some more capitalistic traits because they had to contend with far more economic competition (from within their Clan and outside their Clan) than any anyone else in Clan space.
As-is, the Mandrills in how they were portrayed just felt like a Clan doomed to fail. Their traits were mostly negative with not enough positives to offset that. This could have been a weird X factor that could have been exploited to help explain their survival or success.
This wouldn't have been the same as what the Sharks have done. This could have gone in different directions, less about trade and more about manufacturing just as an example. Or more about manufacturing in some areas/products that the other Clans have neglected.
Disclaimer: I'm not trying to get into some capitalist/communist debate. Not at all. I'm just saying this could have made the Mandrill economy the most unique in Clan space. They might have cultivated certain things, innovated in some areas, that the other Clans had neglected. That in turn could have given the Mandrills some unique strengths or properties in Clan space.
No prob, I've been doing a lot of reading on the Mandrills and the info was still fresh in my head.
Prob gonna paint up at least a star of Kickstarter 'Mechs in their colors; the Mandrills are one of the rare factions to gain early and constant access to the Turkina and Fire Falcon...and I find the idea of painting up a Mandrill force a lot more interesting then doing a generic Falcon one.
A perhaps related topic is that of warships. According to FM: CC, page 44 when the Kindraa were first formed, Khan Faraday negotiated a compromise that saw the warships distributed among the Kindraa in a way that maintained the balance of power at the time.
The proper formation of the Kindraa was a realignment of the Clan and it happened sometime after Klondike and some of it was handled politically. That probably included a lot of things besides warships. It could mean caches, genetic legacies, enclaves and so on. Even if it was partially just a formal recognition of what each Kindraa had already acquired by any means in the period leading up to the formal adoption of the Kindraa system. It sounds like the warship compromise recognized the power dynamics that had already taken root.
This means some assets/resources already belonged to the Kindraa. Others (warships being a good example) were still being controlled by the Clan as a whole. That could have included some caches, stockpiles, enclaves etc.
There was a strong incentive to find a political solution to these issues and divide up the Clan's assets quickly. When the Kindraa first formed the other Clans saw them as weak. It was easy to imagine the other Clans would poke at the new Mandrill Kindraa and see if they had a glass jaw. FM: CC tells us Clan Burrock tried this first but I'm sure other Clans did as well.
After the formation of the Kindraa system was done, Trials was more the norm for settling disputes.
It's largely found in what little we know of the stories of Kindraa that eventually merged.
There used to be a lot more Kindraa than there were by the time FM: CC (3050s) came out. What is implied a lot and hinted at a lot is smaller or weaker Kindraa putting aside their differences to work together and eventually merge. So I suspect there's success stories in there. Not just a marriage of necessity by defeated Kindraa, but actual tales of warriors banding together, planning together, fighting as allies and ultimately merging their Kindraa.
They became close politically, but did they actually share a lot of territorial borders? I'm not sure they did.
Without that easy convenient travel. It's more like alliances between powers, orchestrated at the leadership level primarily. With most warriors and lower castes never mingling.
I'm not suggesting they would have been an incredibly top tier powerful Clan. Just that it would have been amusing if over time they had picked up some more capitalistic traits because they had to contend with far more economic competition (from within their Clan and outside their Clan) than any anyone else in Clan space.
As-is, the Mandrills in how they were portrayed just felt like a Clan doomed to fail. Their traits were mostly negative with not enough positives to offset that. This could have been a weird X factor that could have been exploited to help explain their survival or success.
This wouldn't have been the same as what the Sharks have done. This could have gone in different directions, less about trade and more about manufacturing just as an example. Or more about manufacturing in some areas/products that the other Clans have neglected.
Yes, the Mandrills are the ultimate self-defeating faction. Every time they found a new resource, or opened a new cache, they immediately fought among themselves to see who got the lion's share.
It was a giant treadmill that was set on high and in the end, they couldn't keep up.
The best way to kill a Kindraa was always just to repeatedly slam it, with Galaxy-size Trial after Galaxy-size Trial. Your Clan rolling in a fresh Galaxy each time, fresh warriors and units, while the Kindraa would be forced to field the same force each time, rapidly weakening it through attribution and exhaustion until it folded.
This was a scenario they mostly avoided until the Wars of Reaving era.
Here's a weird thought/question.
Obviously many of Kindraa Sainze's lower castes likely didn't have Combine/Japanese culture in their histories (talking pre-Clan history here). But I wonder if there was any dissemination of that culture to the Kindraa's lower caste members over time. Whether it was a conscious effort by the Sainze founder in the Clan's early days, or more of a gradual merging of some pieces of that culture which became ingrained in the lower castes over generations.
Of course there was such an effort to stamp out pre-Exodus culture and conform to the new Clan Way that it could have been minimal. But it would have been interesting if it was more, because of Sainze arrogance and because the other Clans just regarded the Fire Mandrills as weird anyway.
We know language did. Japanese is listed as a secondary language for the Kindraa in Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans.
Did the mandrills have access to any resource/tech/ or world that they could have leveraged for better growth?
I mean the cobras where a very small clan cluster wise but had a string navy and genetics rep…
Unfortunately the Mandrills always just felt like they were set up for failure. As you note, some of these other Clans had both Pros and Cons (The Cobras were small but controlled the Tanite Worlds, and had some good allies, and had some interesting cross-clan power structures with the cloisters), whereas the Mandrills were a big stack of Cons. Fragmented, infighting. gosh even inbreeding issues with the Paynes. You know the writers have taken a stance against you when you when they start to invoke inbreeding. LOL
But seriously, I was actually feeling a little optimistic about the Mandrills back in the times that FM: Updates came out. Not because they were succeeding, in fact Amanda Carrol stepped down, but because the Kindraa were folding and consolidating. That was the era when "Ilkindraa" Payne-Beyl-Grant was a thing, as it called itself, and Kindraa Mick-Kreese-Kline.
It didn't happen out of a good thing, it happened because they were weakened, respectively. But I looked at that and wondered if given adequate time to rebuild their strength, that consolidation might make those Kindraa very powerful by Kindraa standards. Multiple warships, perhaps creating a strength of 2 Galaxies per.
If those two bigger Kindraa had ganged up on Sainze at that point and knocked them out, forcing another absorption....
The point is consolidation. If we had gotten down to something like that, the respective other Kindraa left wouldn't have had the force to stand on their own. It wouldn't have been a stand-off of roughly equal Galaxy size Kindraa anymore, the power dynamics would have shifted, with some bigger Kindraa of 2 or more Galaxies and multiple warships and one or two original size (as of FM: CC) Kindraa with far less.
Those larger Kindraa would have also had more efficient infrastructure, consolidating resources, enclaves, personnel, production all of it. So they could have outpaced the smaller Kindraa economically as well.
I have to wonder what would have happened then, if the Wars of Reaving hadn't happened and blown the Mandrills up one Kindraa at a time. If the Clan might have finally come together via internal conquests, or just blown itself apart, but either way it represented a change to the long-standing status quo. So things were starting to get interesting when the bigger events unfolded.
“A Keystone Arch” by Phillip Lee - BattleCorps
I don’t think it has been included in any Anthologies, so it is out of print at present.
It covers infighting among the Mandrills in 3048 that resulted in their touman being too wrecked to effectively compete in the Revival Trials.
I know they tried to seize other blood heritages like kerensky but did the mandrills ever gain control of another blood house so they could create new Kindraa?
Why would you create another competitor?
Capture genetic legacies with an eye toward improving your own Kindraa's eugenics program, sure, we know they did that. Make your Kindraa stronger. But create another one? Why would you do that? It's possible I'm misunderstanding what you are asking.
Why would you create another competitor?
Capture genetic legacies with an eye toward improving your own Kindraa's eugenics program, sure, we know they did that. Make your Kindraa stronger. But create another one? Why would you do that? It's possible I'm misunderstanding what you are asking.
This does cough up a question I never bothered to contemplate before. Why did Kindraa Payne not invest in an elemental arm? Even a small one. Is this a bias issue? A resources issue? Did the first Payne Elemental sibkos just produce poor Elementals and the Payne leadership just shut the whole thing down?
Apologies for the double-post but I've stumbled across something while perusing the Rec guides:
The notable pilot for the Elemental III in vol. 24 is a Hell's Horses warrior by the name of Jorge who hails from the obscure bloodline Enriquez. Come to find out, that's a Mandrill legacy! We already knew that the Horses took possession of half of all Smythe, Jewel and Grant legacies but we're not given any proof that those legacies are extant in the modern era. Now we know at least one Mandrill legacy lives on within the Horses, obscure though it may be. And if Jorge's achievements are any indication, it's a strong one!
As per Shrapnel #3, there are hundreds of Bloodnames among the Inner Sphere Clans by 3100. This includes Bloodnames that were previously exclusive to Homeworld Clans, such as N'Buta and Boques. So hypothetically there could be plenty of Mandrill Bloodnames still roaming around.The way things work, unless the bloodname is listed as exclusive or eliminated, a bloodname could show up in any clan
Love the minor Bloodhouse finds guys, nice work!The Mad Dog (Rec Guide 10) and Gargoyle (Rec Guide 11) have minor bloodname notable pilots
Apologies for the double-post but I've stumbled across something while perusing the Rec guides:
The notable pilot for the Elemental III in vol. 24 is a Hell's Horses warrior by the name of Jorge who hails from the obscure bloodline Enriquez. Come to find out, that's a Mandrill legacy! We already knew that the Horses took possession of half of all Smythe, Jewel and Grant legacies but we're not given any proof that those legacies are extant in the modern era. Now we know at least one Mandrill legacy lives on within the Horses, obscure though it may be. And if Jorge's achievements are any indication, it's a strong one!
Is Shrapnel #9's Dezgra the first piece of stand-alone Fire Mandrill centric fiction since A Keystone Arch ?
I've got a few arguments here and there, but overall I absolutely loved the piece. Charron-Willard does a fantastic job drip feeding us with new details about Kindraa culture, costume, and attitude while fleshing out the unique character of Kindraa's Payne and Smythe-Jewel. The way the story describes the environment as the characters are interacting, giving us a more candid glimpse into the already (set in 2870) strange culture of the Mandrills, paints this vivid, living picture of the Clan that feels missing from the more straightforward descriptions we see in sourcebooks.
Also, it wasn't just the Mandrills losing! Well, not entirely.
What did you all think of it? Gives me hope for a suitably chunky follow-up on the destruction of Smythe-Jewel.
Is that the Kindraa's symbol displayed at the end of the story?? ;)
Must be. Thinking Smythe > Smith > Hammer, and of course Jewel > Gem
A bunch of information on Kindraa Smythe-Jewel we've not (I think) been shown before.
Kindraa Colours: Black and emerald green
General Phenotype: Both producing large Warriors, both producing MechWarriors.
Characteristics: Described as "greedy" as a Kindraa. Smythe almost certainly harbours a greedy streak mixed with an unmandrill-like calculation and quiet confidence. Jewel seems more inward looking, more aware of their greed and more troubled by it.
I know that after this kindraa got wrecked some of the blood heritages were picked up but did the smythe and jewel lines die out?
Final comment; the result of this story I will annoyingly say again by the letter of Clan law was not technically an annihilation but an absorption with a dash of reaving. Well maybe more than a dash.
Star Colonel Tamarin Smythe dates all the way back to Kindraa Kline's debut in Field Manual: Crusader Clans -- it's clear from the fluff in that book that Kindraas Kline and Beyl-Grant scooped up most of the Smythe-Jewel Kindraa's remaining heritages after the Horses and Coyotes had their fill of the carcass.
There is a Star Colonel LaDon Jewel in Kindraa Payne as of FM: CC listed as one of the Kindraa's Cluster Commanders.
On page 43, in the Kindraa Payne section it also says Kindraa Payne controls several strong bloodheritages of other lines, including Jewel and Grant.
Fascinatingly, the Grants are one of the few examples that can be pointed at for a post-founding, pre-Invasion Kindraa evolution. The very strong implication in FM:CC is that Grant Bloodheritages were originally exclusively held by Kindraa Smythe-Jewel; as such, during the time of the Kindraa's destruction, the Beyls were likely their own independent Kindraa.
The Beyl capture of multiple Grant Bloodheritages seems to have been the move that finally give the Bloodhouse room to gain power and influence. They could not have had much within Kindraa Smythe-Jewel---it was not Kindraa Smythe-Jewel-Grant, after all---but joining a Kindraa with mostly aerospace lineages could have allowed them to carve a strong place for themselves.
Of note here is that the 17th Mechanized Strike---a historical formation---got a bit more fleshing out along with its own thematic nickname, the "Thunderhorse Cluster".
There were a lot of interesting things to glean from the story in Shrapnel. I hesitate to describe them in detail but it's a good read. Bidding practices of the trial were certainly one of these along with the formation used by Smythe-Jewel. If the Kindraa had justified its actions by that new grouping alone I might go for their creative excuse but other deceptive practices in the bid and during combat were beyond the pale for me. Final comment; the result of this story I will annoyingly say again by the letter of Clan law was not technically an annihilation but an absorption with a dash of reaving. Well maybe more than a dash.
While it was, the first move the Horses made post-Trial was to push for a Trial of Annihilation against the Mandrills as a whole; it's only after the Grand Council shut this down that they and the Coyotes went for the aggressive absorption instead.
Fascinatingly, the Grants are one of the few examples that can be pointed at for a post-founding, pre-Invasion Kindraa evolution. The very strong implication in FM:CC is that Grant Bloodheritages were originally exclusively held by Kindraa Smythe-Jewel; as such, during the time of the Kindraa's destruction, the Beyls were likely their own independent Kindraa.
The Beyl capture of multiple Grant Bloodheritages seems to have been the move that finally give the Bloodhouse room to gain power and influence. They could not have had much within Kindraa Smythe-Jewel---it was not Kindraa Smythe-Jewel-Grant, after all---but joining a Kindraa with mostly aerospace lineages could have allowed them to carve a strong place for themselves.
That's right, there was a third Kindraa that scooped up some remains, thank you for correcting that.
Yes, I had similar thoughts as I was reading the Beyl-Grant fluff last night -- internal dynamics like that are exactly what make the Fire Mandrills so fascinating.
I wonder what the fourteen original Kindraa of the Mandrills was to begin with? We only know of eight... likely the remaining six were some of the remaining exclusive or more famous of the Mandrill Bloodnames. Jannik and Lynn have really not been expounded on too much. Other candidates out there??
But the sheer gall of doubling Trinaries feels farfetched. Then when you consider that apparently Smythe-Jewel used the same deceptive bidding practices against the Coyotes, even the in-story rationale - the fact that the horses field two-to-a-point vehicle Stars, and five-per-point Battle Armour - falls apart, as the Coyotes would (presumably) have fielded neither of these formations. Not sure about the vehicles, but certainly not the BA.
I wonder what the fourteen original Kindraa of the Mandrills was to begin with?
I'd say all or nearly all of the Kindraa with hyphenated names were once separate Kindraa. They were less like absorptions and more like marriages and retained the names.
Where is that number from?
Sainze, Payne, and Faraday (three most powerful Kindraa)
Mattila-Carrol (the first hyphenated Kindraa? separate at first but joined forces quickly)
Smythe-Jewel (the second hyphenated Kindraa? separate at first but joined forces quickly)
Kline (Mechwarrior Kindraa)
Tanaga (Mechwarrior Kindraa)
Jannik (Mechwarrior Kindraa)
Lynn (Aerospace Kindraa)
Kreese (Aerospace Kindraa)
Beyl (Aerospace Kindraa)
Mick (Infantry Kindraa)
Takiro?
Would you know the Kindraa status, be it Mech, Aero, Vehicle or Infantry of the first seven in your list?
Would like to hypothesis on what formations they where. I really want to say mostly Mech and Aero, but the other two classifications are present.
TT
I don't think the Mandrills had any infantry at the beginning.
The only Clans that seemed to have deployed infantry at the founding of the Clans were the Hell's Horses, who made it part of a routine part of their touman, declaring point commanders warriors and the rest auxiliaries, and the Scorpions had a special forces star of infantry, with some of its members popping up as Elemental lines later in the Scorpions' history.
EDIT: The Snow Ravens also mention having an infantry contingent, per Op; Klondike.
Looking at this again, there is canon support for it, though. Arguments could be made about how the text is presented in the Horse and Mandrill sections, but the trial as described in FM:WC's Coyote entry states that the Smythe-Jewel commander "rearranged his force composition and deliberately led his opponent to believe she was going up against a much smaller force.
It's not a huge stretch to believe that these individuals (or their second-generation protégés), having lived through or directly heard about the formation of their Clans and the resultant massive societal and military changes, could have been more flexible in their implementation of Kerensky's tenets.
According to the Blood Spirit writeup in Field Manual: Crusader Clans, Nicholas Kerensky initially mandated the following composition for each Cluster: three BattleMech Trinaries, one Combat Vehicle Trinary and one Infantry Trinary. So, every Clan would have had infantry auxiliaries in Operation Klondike (staffed by troops that failed the MechWarrior/AeroJock Trials but didn't wash out completely).
Turning Points: Foster is a massive hit of sweet Mandrill fluff.
And that Kindraa Smythe-Jewel Force Composition chart really does just lay it out pretty clearly. ;D They really heaped on the dirty tricks, every one of them. I love it.
I must agree. Still reading but I love it. Great work on this project. You also get Early OmniMechs, Coyote stuff, dark caste hints, and much much more!
What dark caste hints?
Turning Points: Foster is a massive hit of sweet Mandrill fluff.
And that Kindraa Smythe-Jewel Force Composition chart really does just lay it out pretty clearly. ;D They really heaped on the dirty tricks, every one of them. I love it.
Eh... that's subjective. Cluster sizes vary quite a bit. Kindraa sizes too. They may each roughly have a galaxy's number of Clusters, but the size of the Clusters and their real strength varies a lot from Kindraa to Kindraa.
So for example if a Kindraa loses an entire Cluster, but let's say they have 3 other full size Clusters. They could strip a Trinary away from the other Clusters and reconstitute a bare bones 3 Trinary cluster fairly quickly. Enough to hold the line perhaps.
It depends on how much territory they hold, how spread out it is, what their allies/enemies situation is, whether or not anyone is truly going after that Kindraa at full-throttle or if it's routine day-to-day small Trial stuff out there.
Whether or not they need to go on the offensive. Or whether they can tuck themselves into a defensive ball.
How much time they have to rebuild.
Lot of variables here. But yes, the loss of a full Cluster is a sizable blow to any Kindraa. A loss that would make that Kindraa look weak and an inviting target. But not all Kindraa are the same size and not all Clusters are created equal so I'd be careful about making broad statements. For example Kindraa Kline includes some second line Clusters that are heavily stiffened by conventional infantry. The loss of one of those units may not have the same impact as Kindraa Kline losing their one and only front line Cluster. With it, the majority of their front line equipment and best warriors.
Kline also had 5 Clusters total. Payne only had 3. For Payne to lose a Cluster is much bigger deal.
So, it's just not the same calculation. But you got the general idea correct. For any Kindraa the loss of a full Cluster is a big deal. Whether it's recoverable or not depends on the variables.
Oddly enough, Sainze in the very first Kindraa mentioned in the Kindraa lists...
Anyway, I like the idea of the Paynes' Warden views as a foil to the Sainzes' Crusader views, but I do not understand their complete disavowment of aerospace forces. It's like they don't believe in them to the point that they act like they don't even exist. Well, an aerial AC/20 might make a pretty big dent in their belief system once it swoops in blasts through their command couch...
It covers infighting among the Mandrills in 3048 that resulted in their touman being too wrecked to effectively compete in the Revival Trials.
I would recommend reading the Founding of the clans trilogy esp in the last novel the mandrills get screen time.
Do tell! I've been thinking of picking these up and the Mandrills are one of my favorite clans... How much screen time are we talking?
Perhaps in that context, demoralizer could be compared to berserker. Imagine in a pan-Clan assault against a massive opponent, all Clans functioning in full as he describes them. Their opponent is holding strong, secure in their superior position and strength. Suddenly from the rear, a wave of red-orange-green-black machines race forward, their armor battered from fighting among themselves for the honor to lead the charge. They ignore the feeble attempts to stop them, secure in their superiority as tested constantly in combat. They use fire in a less-than-creative mimicry of the fiery emblem emblazoned on their armor, spewing it across their opponents with impunity. Even their infantry wields it, ripping and tearing as they deploy from the battered OmniMechs that race into the enemy's lines. For every one that falls, the others fight all the harder. They will not stop. Their will cannot be broken, because they are fighting with their fellows as much as with the forces arrayed against them. Fighting to prove themselves superior. To prove themselves worthy of leading the next charge. Because a wily ilKhan knows you do not order the Fire Mandrills, you unleash them and stand aside until they either win or are decimated.
Okay, so I waxed a bit poetic there. Apologies. xp
...Damn...
I kinda hope you are right, but even if you aren't, that writeup may qualify as one of the most badass things ever written about the Fire Mandrills.
Okay, so I waxed a bit poetic there. Apologies. xp
Don't apologize, well put.
I always envisioned the Mandrills functioning as a sort of special or elite force in such a unified Clan invasion. From hard point you want to shatter or distraction you need faint they are your Clan or Kindraa more precisely. Only problem is you may have difficulty deploying them on command....
Don't apologize, well put.
I always envisioned the Mandrills functioning as a sort of special or elite force in such a unified Clan invasion. From hard point you want to shatter or distraction you need faint they are your Clan or Kindraa more precisely. Only problem is you may have difficulty deploying them on command....
The really devout Warden Kindraa... maybe but I wouldn't put high odds on it.
The Fire Mandrills don't play well with others. There is an arrogance there that would make negotiations with any Inner Sphere power difficult.
I think the most probable exceptions to this would be Faraday-Tanaga. They are probably the closest thing the Fire Mandrills have to an Ulric Kerensky in Kindraa form. They'd probably be able to hold their own in an Inner Sphere political arena.
Mattila-Carrol tries to be this but are very focused on the success of the Clan and they have a history of flip-flopping on the Crusader/Warden thing. In political mentality I'd compare them to the Sharks or the Bears. They are going to chart their own path that no one else would follow. The potential is there but they seem very pragmatic and so they might seize on an alliance opportunity if one presented itself.
Kindraa Kline perhaps, but it comes more from a place of desperation due to their weaknesses. Among the Clans they are always on the defensive and are regarded as a second-rate Kindraa, but they might see opportunity to be more of a leading light in the Inner Sphere, or at least have a better home. Offer them a world that's there, that is much better than their Homeworld Enclaves and I think they'd be tempted.
The Paynes are also Wardens, but arrogant Wardens. Sorta like the Coyotes in mentality. Not sure what they would do.
But the other Kindraa are definitely Crusaders.
Okay, so I waxed a bit poetic there. Apologies. xp
Due to their chaotic nature did they mandrill clan council meet more or less often then “ normal” clans? I can imagine the potential always existed for council sessions to end like this:
https://youtu.be/F2b-2YnfZso
How did they avoid that?
What little we know they mostly just fought each other and then got involved in the Reaving stuff. Page 74 of the Wars of Reaving book is Amanda Carrol basically trying to hammer the message that the Mandrills need to stop fighting each other. It's clear from what she says that in recent years the Mandrills went back to infighting mode.
They were also very involved in the chaos on Strana Mechty. Culminating in the warship Jungle Heat razing two Blood Chapels from orbit. But also causing some friendly fire, causing a retaliation that destroyed the Jungle Heat. Fire Mandrill ground forces were also involved.
Recognizing the mandrills are a constant mess how could they have survived the readings per the khan urging in the quote above? I think they would have had to play it like the scorps and stay largely out of fray and under the radar. They also would have had to consolidate their holdings and forces. How could the khan enforced a plan like that?
Another Fire Mandrill warship, the Anathema, arrived at Arkadia and declared Reaving Trials against Snuka and Vong Bloodname Houses. So targeting the Bears. Payne-Beyl-Grant dropped and was smashed by the 4th Bear Regulars, who decided to ignore all Trial decorum and just smash the Mandrills per a decision they made not to recognize the Reaving Trials.
Later Steel Viper, Goliath Scorpion and Coyote units showed up at Shadow to Reave Mick-Kline-Kreese-Sanze. They defeated the Mandrills, then as the Mandrills gathered to present themselves to the Coyotes, the Coyote Elementals slaughtered them (then turned their weapons on the Vipers and Scorpions, this was part of the reveal of The Society).
Mattila-Carrol found itself starving on Barcella. With the complete breakdown of the Homeworlds, they found themselves starving and under attack. Ultimately they tried to push out of their starving cities on the attack looking for supplies. That whittled down their strength and then they were cut down by some Dark Caste forces aligned with The Society.
At Dagda the Scorpions found some Mandrill survivors. The planet had been devastated. The survivors (members of all Mandrill castes) were taken, absorption style but without any fighting except a boxing match. At that point it was a rescue situation basically.
On Atreus things got sad as the world was devastated by a plague outbreak and basically left to die. That included Faraday-Tanaga and some Steel Vipers. Eventually the Blood Spirits passed by, found about 2 Clusters worth of Faraday-Tanaga survivors and their lower castes and absorbed them. The Mandrills willingly accepted their fate, having watched the plague kill an untold number of people around them across the planet.
So, no I don't think they gained many, if any, genetic material during this period. But all we have really are the broader bigger events, not the day-to-day details. What is clear, is that as the Reaving era dragged on and Clan society collapsed around them, the Mandrills were in pure survival mode for basics like food.
My guess is no. It was chaos during the Wars of Reavings. On the bright side, the Star Adders have activated a slew of bloodnames they gained from the Mandrills.
I'm personally only counting that as a bright side if said holders of those bloodnames encounter a handful of actual Mandrill survivors in the Adders, and Kindraa-related hilarity ensues across the Homeworlds.
For cohesion and social expediency, the Adders would opt to not teach the sibs born from Mandrill bloodlines much about their former Clan's histories - beyond the basic facts that A) they existed, and B) it didn't work out.
I think the same about all those new Steel Viper bloodnames they have.
I know you're right, but the Mandrill/Viper in me just... keeps the hope alive.
I think the point I'm trying to make here is that challenge is a necessity of Clan warrior life. With the Star Adders exercising extreme restraint, there's going to come a crop of warriors who are willing to turn their eye towards advancement, How do you advance in Clan warrior society? The Warriors will find something to prove themselves against. Even if it's their own clan.
LOL Fire Mandrill.1. This, I think, largely depends on which clan adopts him. In any case, there may be some wariness at first, based on the Mandrills' belligerent reputation. But if he serves faithfully and demonstrates his willingness to work with his new clan that should do much to smooth things over.
Sorry for the pivot but I actually do have a question. As an RPG game type character I'm working on a Bloodnamed Sainze pilot who is taken bondsman by another Clan, regained warrior status and is serving the new Clan. He's not as prickly or as uncooperative as the Mandrills are generally. He's more cooperative, accepted.
The interesting twist is this guy does not commit Seppuku, which if you look it up is a big deal. Sainze warriors taken who commit Seppuku may still see their genetic legacy put to use. Sainze warriors also know they will never be accepted back.
I'm pondering a couple things.
1. Would he be treated by his new Clan any differently that another Bloodnamed bondsman-turned warrior in his new Clan?
2. I'm looking for creative plot ideas as to why he would chose to this path, knowing it meant he would be shunned by Kindraa Sainze for doing so, and that despite having a Bloodname, his genetic material would never be used. Like an unbloodnamed warrior, his line would end with him. So what are some good motivations for why he would do this?
We're talking pre-Wars of Reaving here, if that distinction matters.
FM: Crusader Clans page 42. Says the Mandrills various Kindraa began challenging the Smoke Jaguars on Atreus after the rout of their forces by the Inner Sphere. Then as of Warriors of Kerensky it says the Mandrills recently expanded their Atreus holdings.
We also see the Mattila-Carrols take Pahn City on Huntress after the Jaguars are gone. Of course at that time all the other Clans were gobbling up pieces of Huntress.
So I think in terms of same-planet neighbors, it sounds like they shared territory on Atreus.
Warriors of Kerensky says the Jaguars earned enemy status because of their constant raiding. That makes it sound like the Jaguars could have been showing up at any Mandrill enclave on any world and declaring Trials, and the Mandrills were reciprocating. In addition to Atreus.
The Mandrills never gained a lot of territory beyond the enclaves they held early in their history. When they did venture out to engage in Trials of Possession it was often for other things, resources, genetic legacies. They were so small and had such a limited touman (as a whole and per Kindraa) that expanding their territory a great deal was problematic.
The other pieces of the puzzle is that I don't think we know of all the territory held by the Jaguars before they were gone. So some of the other worlds where the Mandrills have a presence, might have also had a Jaguar presence at some point and those would have been focal points as well.
But I feel pretty confident saying they probably feuded at Atreus a lot.
But I feel pretty confident saying they probably feuded at Atreus a lot.
Two of the most aggressively combative Clans feuding where their territories touch? I DON'T BELIEVE IT! ;D
Lol right?! Regarding Atreus what if any big prizes where there to fight for on that world?
So the Spartan C is pretty good: overheats like crazy on an Alpha where everything connects but solid machine. Should go well with any Gargoyles, Executioners, and other similar mechs.
Well, it has two factories: one that produces the Jagatai and Kirghiz, and one that produces the Predator. I know the Mandrills controlled the Predator facility and I think they took control of the aerospace factory after the fall of the Jaguars.
You might also be thinking of the Xerxes factory on Kirin, which the Horses rolled on once the Jaguars were gone.
I believe Shadow was noted as the mandrill capital so did each kindraa have a slice of it?
FM:CC (~3060)
Sainze
Shadow - capitol
Dagda
Strana Mechty - due to holding the saKhanship
Faraday-Tanaga
Shadow - capitol
Atreus
Dagda
Payne
Foster - capitol
Shadow
Mattila-Carrol
Marshall - capitol
Shadow
Strana Mechty - due to holding the Khanship
Beyl-Grant
Foster - capitol
Shadow
Kline
Dagda - capitol
Shadow
Foster
Mick-Kreese
Atreus - capitol
Shadow
And now, for FM:U (3067)
Sainze
Strana Mechty - due to holding the Khanship
Shadow - capitol
Dagda
Payne-Beyl-Grant
Dagda - capitol
Foster
Shadow
Faraday-Tanaga
Shadow - capitol
Atreus
Dagda
Mick-Kreese-Kline
Atreus - capitol
Foster
York - possible contract with Blood Spirits
Dagda
Mattila-Carrol
Marshal - capitol
Shadow
Hello fellow mandrills I am finally starting to paint my mick kreese warships and boy it’s been tricky but I am trying! If any of you all have mandrill warships of your own to show please post picts
In addition to this I have a question: would the aero focused mick kreese likely “invest” in top quality Omni fighters but be ok with 2nd line mechs or vechiles for their ground forces?
Whether by choice or circumstance they are very reliant on second-line material. As of FM: Crusader Clans they have 1 front-line Cluster and 3 Second-Line Cluster.
The fluff on the 23rd Air Assault Force says that one third of their fighters are generally down for maintenance.
Best guess, since a lot of their leadership are pilots, yeah I bet they strive to ensure the pilots (particularly those in the command unit and the 1 front-line unit) get a few choice picks, a few pretty new airframes. Splurge on a few really good but expensive fighters. But the status of the 23th hints at the fact that this is a resource-poor Kindraa. They are probably very reliant on just whatever machines they can get from anywhere. And a lot of it is second-line hardware. Can't afford to be too picky, and that's probably what you see in the second-line clusters.
I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of the ASFs in their second-line clusters are in fact OmniFighters. But they may be older airframes. Some of them showing their age.
There is a significant cost difference between something like a Tyre or Chaeronea (standard engine) and their front-line OmniFighter XL engine equipped equivilant. You can pick up a lot of those second-line birds like that, for the same cost as an OmniFighter.
In FM: Updates the Fire Mandrill second-line aerospace fighter RAT also includes a fair number of Star League era designs slotted in. Rogue, Zero, Hellcat, Gotha, Ahab, are scattered around in there. That speaks to the Clan as a whole and not Mick-Kreese, maybe if you had an individual RAT for them it might show better ASFs. But I'm not sure.
Maintaining the 2 warships are likely sucking up a lot of the Kindraa's resources. In Clan Snow Raven the naval assets and everything surrounding them (the assault ships, the fighters, elemental marines etc.) get the lion's share of the resources, and a lot of their ground units get whatever is left of the resources. I wouldn't be surprised if Mick-Kreese has a similar mentality.
So the last we seen of Payne-Mick-Kreese is that they drop on Arcadia to challenge the Bears, the Lola III Anathema gets mentioned as being there. The Bears ignore the Zell-like Trial and shredded the Mandrills, then began packing up to leave with everyone and everything they could load up on every available spacecraft to evacuate Arcadia and go to the Inner Sphere. At the last minute this effort as interfered with by the Blood Spirits, who fired warship warning shots from the CBS Rocinante onto the planet and then another Blood Spirit Warship, the Stooping Kite, tried to do the same with a Bear jumpship, things got out of hand and the Stooping Kite destroyed it and killed a lot of Bear lower castemen. The Bear response was to throw space-capable craft they had at the Rocinante until it was a wreck, then proceed with their evacuation. It was their last action in the Homeworlds.
It does make you wonder how much Payne-Mick-Kreese warriors and equipment, perhaps even warships, they may have scooped up in the process. How much of that might have been thrown into the fight against the Blood Spirits, and how much of that might have survived to make the trip to the Inner Sphere.
The CFM Anathema is found later and elsewhere. It is found in the Marshall system having suffered some kind of system-wide shutdown (SLOT virus?) and the Stone Lions put her back into service. So it seems like it left Arcadia.
Some weird missing pieces to all this. The CFM Anathema ends up in the Marshall System for some reason. The Firehold (Carrack class) seems to disappear and the Reaver seems to disappear. Payne-Beyl-Grant's 3-warship navy ends up in an unknown place.
Certainly possible they got wiped out in all the crazy fighting in WoR era. Just not specifically mentioned.
Given how rigorous the Blood Spirit training was, I imagine plenty of their genetic legacies would be desirable. It's not as much about which phenotype they'd be best at. It's about the codex of that individual warrior. Their strengths, their weaknesses. That's a lifetime of data the Clan collected. About how fast of a learner they were. Whether they had leadership potential. Whether they had a good mind for technical skills or strategic skills or tactical skills. Whether they were the best shot in the Clan, period. Or had great physical endurance.
But with that they are probably also some less desirable stuff too. That warrior was the best shot in the Clan, but not a great strategic thinker. That other warrior was a fantastic elemental and leader, but a little on the smaller side for an elemental. That pilot pushed cognitive thinking to the max, but was just average in hand-to-hand combat, even by aero phenotype standards.
They would look at the potential pairing at that level and look for combinations that may produce outstanding results.
Think of it like building a character in a new video game, and picking attributes and skills, and trying to figure out what's the best combination. Now imagine instead of individual attributes or skills, you got to pick from dozens or hundreds of potential characters (each one a package deal of skills/attributes, a life story and lifetime of achievements and failures), then have to declare that you are mixing 2, knowing you'll potentially gain some of the skills from each. But not knowing exactly what the end result will be. So there is a certain degree of randomness to it.
But you still look for pairings that will bring out the best of whatever is desired.
There would be a degree of experimentation with it as well.
So short answer, it would be tied to the individuals being considered as candidates to be genetic parents of some trueborn, and what the matchup might look like. And it would be very based on the individual, not the reputation of the Clan or the Kindraa.
"Ok we are looking at creating some pilots, on the short list we have Blood Spirit Warrior Matthew Church, a mechwarrior, but one with very sharp reflexes and his profile suggests an excellent comprehension of 3-dimensional spaces and environments. We are thinking about pairing him with Warrior Sandra Kreese, who was a successful pilot, but primarily in atmospheric combat, some of her notable defeats were in true 3 dimensional environments like the vacuum of space. We think this combination could result in pilots who have an excellent grasp of space combat."
Sigh if the mandrills and spirits had to be beaten down couldn’t they have at least absorbed one or the other?
We've been over their end every which way. It is what it is.
And hypotheticals are only fun to a point. I find it more interesting to talk about what they were when the Clan was alive.
I've been a Battletech fan and a Clan fan for at least 2 decades now. And for much of that I very much ignored them. I glossed over their section in FM: CC and moved on. They seemed quirky, they seemed weird, their deficiencies as a Clan seemed obvious. I think what I've been doing in recent years is going back over those books and paying fresh attention to the parts of the Clans (the Mandrills being a part of that) that I gave little thought or attention to for so long.
But I'm not looking to resurrect them. That's somewhere between entertainment value only and a waste of mental energy, because they are gone. Rather...I feel like in some ways I'm having the conversations I didn't have about them, I didn't have 10, 20 years ago. And particularly learning and I've had fun dissecting, comteplating, grasping/understanding and discussing the Clan. And we know so much more now. With books about Operation Klondike and the Golden Century, and a book on Smythe-Jewel. We have so much more useful info.
They kinda did. The Spirits took in what was left of the Faraday-Tanagas at the tail end of the Reavings, and I think there's even a Star Colonel listed with one of those Bloodnames in the final TO&E of the Spirits.It is interesting, that the Star Adders got the Mandrill legacies of Faraday and Kreese (among others). They do have access to Blood Spirits, either.
It's never really explained where the shortfall is, so we can only speculate based on what we more broadly know about the Mandrills. Do they lack sufficient trained techs? Do they lack sufficient parts?
To me that reference is an example of what we are told in canon. That the Fire Mandrills economy is rather small and inefficient. That the Kindraa setup causes a lot of duplication of caste roles between them. That the Clan as a whole tends to be on the resource poor side of the spectrum. And that a lot of the Clan's resources get tied up (and expended) through the day-to-day fighting with other Kindraa. This is often referenced in the fact that the lower castes don't have time for innovation, as they are tied up in the day-to-day needs of the Kindraa.
That kind of thing may be a lot more common among the Mandrills than we realize. It's very telling to me that everything says the Mandrills went into the Trials to decide which Clan would join the invasion, with a lot of battle damage not fully repaired.
Those Trials were the focus of the Homeworlds when they happened. Watched very closely everywhere. It was like the real world Olympics. Big event on full display.
Now imagine the opening ceremonies of the Olympics and the games of the Olympics and every nation is sporting shiny uniforms, shiny good-looking equipment, but one. That one team, their stuff looks a little ragged. The swim team's caps have holes in them that have been patched (instead of replacing the cap). Athletes for running events are wearing shoes that look like they are pretty worn out. The athletes from that team go to get their javelins for the javelin throw and some of them are cracked and have been wrapped or repaired instead of replaced.
That is the Mandrills.
By whatever name...burn rate, expenditure rate, I bet the Mandrills go through equipment pretty fast. Even if it isn't destroyed, it requires a lot of repairs and maintenance and the Mandrill logistical capacity for that is limited. The Mick-Kreese reference to a lot of airframes being down for maintenance is just one reference, to what I suspect is a much more widespread phenomenon among the Mandrills, especially during times of heightened frequency of Trials.
I think it's very telling that in Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans, in the Fire Mandrill Kindraa Clash Tour of Duty, one of the possible roll results (6) reads that your (the character's) combat style is hard on the equipment. You spend most of the year dispossessed.
You don't see Dispossessed on many (maybe none, I haven't seen it) on the other Tour of Duty roll options associated with the Clans. That logistical reserve is prettys hallow.
In that same Kindraa Clash Tour of Duty a 5 roll results in: The pace! The constant fighting day after day....another alert. When does it end?
Yet a third roll reads "You should rest up more between battles" which sees an increase in military skills but a decrease in BOD.
That speaks to another aspect of the Mandrills. They don't have sufficient reserves to rotate units away from combat for long. Of course that takes a toll on the equipment, as well as the warriors, and the techs, everybody.
But if you truly were trying to solve this problem, the fastest solution is to win more resources (specialized techs, manufacturing facilities like an ASF factory or factories that produce component parts that go into ASFs). In general, you'd try to deepen the logistical resource. Shift or increase production of spare parts for example. If it's a manpower shortfall then grabbing some more ASF techs.
My gut feeling is that their logistical reserve capacity (spare airframe availability, spare parts availability, manpower/man hours) just isn't adequate. That they are forced to make-do with the bare minimum and sometimes less than that at times of Trial peak intensity. I also suspect that supporting 2 warships ties up a lot of their resources, particularly the Potemkin, that is a very big warship. Setting aside the fact that it's a Dropship carrier above all, in terms of resources required to maintain it, it's up there with the battleships.
Golden Century mentions them being the inventor of the Clan-spec Flamer as it currently exists IIRC, but beyond that, I'm not sure.
Here's a mental challenge for everybody. How could the writers have changed the Fire Mandrills to make them a more active and more successful Clan? That could mean going all the way back to pre-FM: CC and fleshing them out from their introduction to the universe, or maybe something that they did or changed at any point in their history.
Key limitation, can't do away with the Kindraa concept. Think of that as a defining pillar of the Clan that you can't remove.
Success in this is rated by changing the fewest things, yet having a big impact.
This is one of the areas, I believe they shot themselves in the foot. The Warship fleet should have always been manned by a mix Kindraa to prevent a polarization of the Clan's strongest asset. The same goes for their Merchant fleet. Let the Kindraa be Kindraa, but let the larger functions of trade and warship protection be centrally controlled.
The problem with that idea is that unless all of the WarShips captains come from the same Kindraa, they'd just end up blowing each up at some point. And if all of the WarShip captains are from the same Kindraa, that Kindraa would absolute the holy hell out of that fleet to bully the other Kindraa. It's just baked into who the Mandrills are.
kindraa mick kreese kline wil be ilkindraa, you can all be sure of that [rockon]
I'm partial to the Salamander. They're nasty, nasty things to throw at unprepared players and opponents, especially considering that battle armor doesn't follow zellbriggen like MechWarriors do. They're great ambushers, especially in city environments.
Thanks! I ordered more and will share them with my blood spirits. I am
Building a kindraa mick kreese force which is noted as having a very aero and elemental bias. Because of that I would think they try to have all the battle armor goodies. For example the slyph the VTOL armor which is noted as weird and bad but I feel they would try them
Sylphs are fun, too, and definitely deserve more love. One of these days I'll get around to trying out that supernova trinary idea I had of mixing ProtoMechs with Sylph battle armor, just for the giggles of the whole thing.
I don't see the warrior relationship with their Kindraa leader being any different than the warrior relationship with a Khan in a different Clan.
And if anything, the prevalence of small Trials as being the norm for the Mandrills makes a dedicated bodyguard machine feel too specialized. If most Mandrill Trials were Star-to-Trinary size, on average in the day-to-day. In such fights you don't have the extra assets on the battlefield to devote to something as specialized as bodyguard duty. In a Trial like that, Star versus Star for example, you don't have the luxury to hold something back as a bodyguard. You need everything on the frontline, or serving as a scout/recon/harasser or maybe providing fire support from just behind the front-line, but that's about it.
For other Clans, in a Cluster scale engagement, we might be talking about 1 Bodyguard 'mech out of 45 'mechs in a cluster. 1/45.
In a Mandrill small Trial, a bodyguard 'mech takes up 1/5 or 1/15.
It's too large a percentage. It only starts to look appropriate at mass engagements. I'm talking Galaxy level engagements. That's when it's such a small percentage, that you can afford to hold back a dedicated bodyguard 'mech or two.
So in general the concept doesn't make a lot of sense in smaller fights. Add to that the traditional Clan stigma against such a support machine when Zell 1-v-1 dueling is the traditional preference.
I'll add one more layer on top of that. Some Kindraa don't have particularly diverse manufacturing, the range of machines they build themselves is pretty limited. So as a Kindraa Leader, if that's my reality, then I want to make sure my Kindraa is build gooding, versatile, well-rounded machines that will be capable in a wide array of situations. I can't afford to slot manufacturing to a machine that fills a super niche role that I don't need a lot of.
Nothing specific that I can immediately recall, but there is some fluff about how the Mandrills would occasionally raid Huntress to test the Jags. If I'm remembering correctly, of course. I'll have to go through a book or two later, because now you've got me actually curious.
The book Warriors of Kerensky tells us that regular fighting earned the Burrocks and Jaguars something like "traditional enemy" status.
So I'm guessing no, and it's not like the Jaguars ever did them any Mandrill-specific special favors that we know of. We do know they were neighbors on Atreus, considering Trialing against your enclave neighbors was a particular favorite activity of both Clans, it's easy to see how they would come to loath each other. Or consider each other a primary target anytime they had the itch or need to declare a Trial of Possession for something.
We know Mick-Kreese had a strong presence on Atreus, because in FM: CC both the Kindraa command unit and another Cluster were on Atreus, alongside a cluster from Faraday-Tanaga.
I'd say any Kindraa that shared a border with the Jaguars probably also fought them a lot. Because of how strict and tough the Jaguars were on their lower castes (causing them not to flourish at all), they depended a lot on the warriors to trial for whatever the Clan needed, making them an extremely aggressive Clan. The Jaguars were the epitome of the idea that you don't need to plant your own crops when you can just kill your neighbor and take theirs.
I'm really not sure what you are asking.
What's the "biggest dawg in the yard?" And how is that different from what all Clan warriors are doing all the time?
All Clan warriors are ultimately obsessed with victories. Winning victories, winning Trials of all types. Kills can be part of it, but it doesn't matter if you score a lot of kills but ultimately lose the Trial. The victory matters more than the kill count (although that is certainly a factor that is tracked).
Your question frames kills as a separate goal from "biggest dawg in the yard" and I'm not sure what that means. If they aren't winning Trials (kills often being a byproduct of that) to demonstrate their prowess as a warrior, then what are they doing instead that makes them the biggest "dawg in the yard?"
Request you clarify.
Star Colonel Schroeder came out looking better than good, a hero certainly
He fought the good fight, did everything possible to keep his people alive and he obviously threw that boxing trial to make sure they get absorbed and rescued
WoR book clearly states that trial was purely ceremonial, food rations for Mandrills were probably already cracked open before the match even started
I'm pretty certain that all those Mandrills got evacuated minus probably several warriors due to regular attrition, Scorpion exodus was planned in advance as a contingency and was quite thorough when it happened
It would be quite easy for writers to write some Empire characters who had Fire Mandrill ancestors
Plus we can see possible Fire Mandrill influence in Scorpion Empire inventory where some Mandrill designs reappeared post-exodus (Spartan C, Lancelot C)
How did I miss this in WOR I have an irrational dislike of the scorps likely due to my doomed love of the spirits and mandrills who both noted the scorps as having more resources and warships than they knew what to do with…
But this is very cool! Long live the mandrills
Star Colonel Schroeder could have his genecode added to the Scorpions.
TT
The Scorpions are letting every Tom, Dick and Harry from here to Antwerp found Bloodhouses these days. Not a big stretch to think they'd induct an Absorbed and Bloodnamed Mandrill. :laugh:
...am I the only one entertaining dreams of a "Mandrill Galaxy" showing up at some point in the Scorpion's touman, what with their penchant for honoring history?
I mean, it's just a dream, but darn it a guy can hope.
The Mandrils, Blood Spirits, and the Scorpions get screwed royally thru out the book (yes the Vipers get Annihilated). But it is nice to see several of their characters get some good screen time and potentially future screen time even if it isn’t what you wanted for them in the first place.
...am I the only one entertaining dreams of a "Mandrill Galaxy" showing up at some point in the Scorpion's touman, what with their penchant for honoring history?
I mean, it's just a dream, but darn it a guy can hope.
Whatever cultural heritage survivors brought with them would definitely be preserved but not in Galaxy form unfortunately, there were just not enough of them who got rescued
But as individual characters there is more than good chance for that, while Scorpion lore has been nicely laid out in broad terms the actual word count is quite low which leaves loads of room for all sorts of cool storylines down the road and tales of Mandrill descendants would be perfect fit for that
I can easily imagine entre Fire Mandrill descended family clans in Empire's Garrison Caste who proudly keep flags of their old Clan on the walls of their homes, who start every family gathering by swearing vengeance on the Home Clans and who all angrily spit on the ground every time words 'Clan Coyote' are uttered
And who make sure that all their youngsters try out for freeborn sibcos not because of prestige, honor or career but because they all want to be even closer to potential payback should Home Clans decide to show up
A few surviving individuals (and their descendants) aside, could be fun to see the Scorpions turn the Mandrill feuds into a kind of spectator sport.
That probably sounds very cringe to many authentic Mandrill fans. But the thought of people filling a stadium to watch spectator events (whether its combat or sports...) inspired by the Mandrills, using Mandrill insignia and colors.... I dunno, it could be cool.
Also, appropriately ironic. When the Mandrills were a Clan, the Kindraa feuding thing was their biggest weakness but also what they were best known for. To see someone turn that into their lasting legacy, a big piece of what people remember about them, but it has been transformed into a more positive context, like good-natured sports. That feels ok to me, especially if legit Mandrill-blood people were the ones who got that started.
If the choice is between the Mandrills being completely forgotten...OR that idea. Then I'd prefer that. Then they have some legacy that lives on in Scorpion society.
Warriors of Kerensky page 51 notes the Mandrills as one of the Clans that liked to play Lacrosse.
Or if you wanted to keep things very militant, it could have turned into a version of the Martial Olympiad. Just one that draws from the Mandrills for inspiration rather than the Star League.
Imagine all the word play with the word "Payne" that would ensue....
Let's hope a return of the Mandrills in the ilclan Era.
The answer, if there were one, would be found in percentage chances. Because the Kindraa did interact with each other, and they did interact with other Clans. They did both. They weren't completely insular like the Blood Spirits. They didn't monitor every single inter-caste and inter-Clan relationship like the Steel Vipers (who practically operated their own Clan like a police surveillance state).
So literally it could be "Monday we had a trade meeting with the Diamond Sharks", "Tuesday members of our Kindraa met the members of an adjacent Clan enclave to discuss a non-military border issue regarding the water of a river that flows through both our enclaves" and "Wednesday, we met with the leader of a Clan Wolf Bloodname House to try to negotiate some genetic pairings between our Bloodname Houses" and "Thursday, depending on who we think is a better target, we are going after either a fellow Kindraa or a Clan in a Trial of Possession, because we want to Trial to acquire another Overlord-C dropship."
It's not 100% one or the other. Both do happen.
Their preferences on the matter take a backseat to whatever they need to do most at any given moment. Such is life.
Thank you Alan I think you phrased this so well! And as each kindraa leader is quite independent I must think the chain of command is pretty short…
Yes. The Kindraa Leaders go with their own gut decisions. Consulting with the Khans is more likely to end up with an official sanction or denial, since they often are very partial to whatever Kindraa they came from and wouldn't want to see a rival Kindraa gain an advantage.
I gotta imagine alot of kindraa leader meeting with the khan ended in fist fights…
Are the seven Kindraa that survived to the 3050 era, representative of all the original fourteen Kindraa through death and merger? Were there any that went extinct early on or rose up to replace another Bloodhouse? Counting them, including Smythe-Jewel I get thirteen total.
Appreciate any thoughts you guys may have.
Couple obscure Mandrill references...
In the novel Land of Dreams we have a couple Mandrill scenes. Mostly focused on Sainze and Payne (the originals) that shed a little light on their rivalry.
But in one scene we also get some dialogue from Mia Nethercott, another Mandrill founding bloodname that we've never seen referenced anywhere else. Mia recommends to Laura Payne that they retreat in one scene after a lot of fighting with their forces in need of repair and resupply. I've always suspected since then that Nethercott might be another of those minor bloodnames shared by the various Kindraa, but I could also see it always being concentrated in Kindraa Payne, if Mia and Laura Payne had a good relationship (which was the vibe I got from that scene).
Schroeder is another obscure name that gets Star Colonel Hampton Schroeder of Kindraa Sainze as a more famous member during the Wars of Reaving. I could see that being a minor Kindraa from the early days that Sainze absorbs.
EDIT: He's particularly intriguing because FM: CC tells us that only Sainze-named warriors get to be Star Colonels in that Kindraa. So he bucks that trend for some unknown reason. Dating all the way back to FM: Updates, so it isn't a quirk of the WoR era.
He isn’t even the most interesting one, either. Another Cluster is commanded by an individual that isn’t even Bloodnamed at all.
True, would be interesting if Star Colonel Collin was freeborn. The Sainze attitude toward freeborns is complex and interesting.
Excellent detective work but that'd also imply Tanaga was not one of the 14 original Kindraa by coming up later, which would lower the count back to 12. But that leads to ponder other details as well.
Given that Smythe-Jewel is definitely a merger of two Kindraa
The only hole I can poke in it is that Samantha Kline is said to be the most popular leader to come along in decades. (FM: CC, Kline Officers page)
So I don't think Kindraa Kline came into existence post-Revival. Decades at least, maybe the entire history book. Not confirmed for sure, but that's where I tilt on that one.
Also on FM: CC page 44, it displays Kindraa Mick-Kreese's name as: Kindraa Mick-Kreese (Goulet).
That same paragraph says that at times Goulet has risen to prominence in that Kindraa. Quote: "though with the recent capture of Goulet Bloodnamed warriors and genetic material by Kindraa Mattila-Carrol, the resurgence of this Bloodname may be long in coming."
I think Goulet was a separate Kindraa that was recently absorbed, in fairly recent memory as of 3059, with some Goulet bloodheritages/warriors within Mick-Kreese as well as Kline (there is a Goulet Star Colonel there in FM: CC but the Cluster he commands is a mix of elementals and conventional infantry, including some solahma, so this may be a fading warrior on the tail end of their career). But this event very much weakened the Goulets as a Bloodname House.
It's tempting to say the Goulets were perhaps the small Warden Kindraa decimated by Sainze during the Warden/Crusader split pre-Revival. With their absorption by Mattila-Carrol coming later as the survivors just didn't have the strength to remain an independent Kindraa. That whole dynamic left the Goulets in Kindraa Mick-Kreese in the best position to hold some kind of junior leadership position in that Kindraa. Also, a history of sometimes having a leadership role in that Kindraa.
It would be, it's certainly a possibility. Either due to casualties the Sainze bloodnamed didn't have enough qualified Star Colonels laying around. Or in the intervening years they relaxed the "Sainze Star Colonels only" policy for one or more reasons. Possibly due to that first issue of available Sainze warriors. But also possibly due to internal pressures within the Kindraa to allow some others to rise up within the Kindraa. I feel like there's an interesting untold story there either way.
Pivoting..
Faraday-Tanaga's write up in FM: CC page 43 says that Kindraa used to contain 5 exclusive Bloodnames. It says they now share two minor names with other Kindraa and other Clans, and that a third name is shared with the Smoke Jaguars but might be considered exclusive "in light of recent events."
I think one of those once-exclusive names they now share is Angharobis (pronounced Angharobi ? silent "s"?). Because we get a Star Colonel in the Faraday-Tanaga Kindraa, and another in in Beyl-Grant.
I think Kolomosi may be the other name referenced. We've got 2 canon Star Captain Komolosi's within the Smoke Jaguars.
Within Faraday-Tanaga we also get a Star Colonel Bush referenced in FM: CC.
So it sounds like Faraday-Tanaga, said to have originally consisted of 5 exclusive bloodnames per FM: CC. I believe they were Faraday, Tanaga, Angharobis, Kolomosi and Bush.
If accurate, that does a lot to clarify the history of those 5 bloodnames, as originating within a single Kindraa. The same writeup tells us Faraday ruled it, so it was originally Kindraa Faraday, with the Tanaga's eventually elevating themselves up to hyphenated name prominence.
I'd kind of love it if those 5 Bloodname Founders served together in the same Star or Binary during Operation Klondike.
Yeah this has been interesting, and we've put some good puzzle pieces together. Whether or not it's exactly what happened, it makes sense based on the evidence. Kudos.
It's funny, I've always assumed all the Kindraa date back to the start of the Kindraa system. Mergers/absorptions sure, some destroyed sure. However, I always thought of them coming into existence in that same time period during that fractional reorganization of the Clan.
I never really reconsidered the possibility of a new Kindraa forming long after that.
That warrants some thought. Not sure if that ever happened but it's an interesting angle. It would be a good story tool to separate a Kindraa from the rest of them to give them a more unique origin.
Taking that thought to an extreme, the writers could even really shock everyone and craft a canon story where a new Kindraa was birthed, lived and then died (or someway/somehow went away) at some point far after all the other Kindraa formed and then went away before Revival. Justify the lack of references to it in existing books through the fact that it's a deep dark Mandrill secret for some reason.
That could be fun.
All that wacky speculation aside. I've always had a soft spot for non-solahma conventional infantry. That aspect of the Horses and Vipers appealed to me. Even if I didn't like the rest of the Clan much. Kline is another notable user of conventional infantry. So, it's never topped my favorite list for long, but I do have a soft spot for Kline.
Particularly during the Wars of Reaving era, we see Kline (and others) go fight the Horses on Niles, and are successful for a time. The thought of Horses and Kline conventional infantry fighting a conventional infantry battle puts a smirk on my face.
Yeah this has been interesting, and we've put some good puzzle pieces together. Whether or not it's exactly what happened, it makes sense based on the evidence. Kudos.
It's funny, I've always assumed all the Kindraa date back to the start of the Kindraa system. Mergers/absorptions sure, some destroyed sure. However, I always thought of them coming into existence in that same time period during that fractional reorganization of the Clan.
I never really reconsidered the possibility of a new Kindraa forming long after that.
That warrants some thought. Not sure if that ever happened but it's an interesting angle. It would be a good story tool to separate a Kindraa from the rest of them to give them a more unique origin.
Taking that thought to an extreme, the writers could even really shock everyone and craft a canon story where a new Kindraa was birthed, lived and then died (or someway/somehow went away) at some point far after all the other Kindraa formed and then went away before Revival. Justify the lack of references to it in existing books through the fact that it's a deep dark Mandrill secret for some reason.
That could be fun.
All that wacky speculation aside. I've always had a soft spot for non-solahma conventional infantry. That aspect of the Horses and Vipers appealed to me. Even if I didn't like the rest of the Clan much. Kline is another notable user of conventional infantry. So, it's never topped my favorite list for long, but I do have a soft spot for Kline.
Particularly during the Wars of Reaving era, we see Kline (and others) go fight the Horses on Niles, and are successful for a time. The thought of Horses and Kline conventional infantry fighting a conventional infantry battle puts a smirk on my face.
The book Warriors of Kerensky tells us that regular fighting earned the Burrocks and Jaguars something like "traditional enemy" status.
So I'm guessing no, and it's not like the Jaguars ever did them any Mandrill-specific special favors that we know of. We do know they were neighbors on Atreus, considering Trialing against your enclave neighbors was a particular favorite activity of both Clans, it's easy to see how they would come to loath each other. Or consider each other a primary target anytime they had the itch or need to declare a Trial of Possession for something.
We know Mick-Kreese had a strong presence on Atreus, because in FM: CC both the Kindraa command unit and another Cluster were on Atreus, alongside a cluster from Faraday-Tanaga.
I'd say any Kindraa that shared a border with the Jaguars probably also fought them a lot. Because of how strict and tough the Jaguars were on their lower castes (causing them not to flourish at all), they depended a lot on the warriors to trial for whatever the Clan needed, making them an extremely aggressive Clan. The Jaguars were the epitome of the idea that you don't need to plant your own crops when you can just kill your neighbor and take theirs.
That's actually a rather interesting question. That warship paint scheme is odd.
I went back to Aerotech 2 the book where that info comes from, and that is how its described. Mick-Kreese-Kline has a striking yellow, green and black scheme. So camospecs is consistent with that book and that book is reflecting the post-merger paint scheme of Mick-Kreese-Kline
It certainly doesn't feel like Mick-Kreese's style (black and red) much at all. I struggle to imagine them choosing that for themselves pre-merger.
It's much closer to a Kline vibe, particularly with the prominent yellow. But Kline's paint scheme is yellow with green and red.
This also makes me wonder what Mick-Kreese-Kline's paint scheme for other assets (i.e. 'mechs, BA, ASFs) looked like post-merger between those two Kindraa.
To answer your question, I'm thinking they came up with a new paint scheme post-merger, and that pre-merger, Mick-Kreese probably used black and red on their warships. But that's really just my opinion.
I think the writers and whoever designated that paint scheme, I think when they were picking it to be put into Aerotech 2 (set post-merger), they looked at the existing paint schemes for each Kindraa and that yellow stuck in their minds a lot, and ended up in the end-result. After the yellow, your brain does start looking for colors that are somewhat complementary to yellow (rather than clashing) and green and black suit that need about as well as anything.
That's actually a rather interesting question. That warship paint scheme is odd.
I went back to Aerotech 2 the book where that info comes from, and that is how its described. Mick-Kreese-Kline has a striking yellow, green and black scheme. So camospecs is consistent with that book and that book is reflecting the post-merger paint scheme of Mick-Kreese-Kline
It certainly doesn't feel like Mick-Kreese's style (black and red) much at all. I struggle to imagine them choosing that for themselves pre-merger.
It's much closer to a Kline vibe, particularly with the prominent yellow. But Kline's paint scheme is yellow with green and red.
This also makes me wonder what Mick-Kreese-Kline's paint scheme for other assets (i.e. 'mechs, BA, ASFs) looked like post-merger between those two Kindraa.
To answer your question, I'm thinking they came up with a new paint scheme post-merger, and that pre-merger, Mick-Kreese probably used black and red on their warships. But that's really just my opinion.
I think the writers and whoever designated that paint scheme, I think when they were picking it to be put into Aerotech 2 (set post-merger), they looked at the existing paint schemes for each Kindraa and that yellow stuck in their minds a lot, and ended up in the end-result. After the yellow, your brain does start looking for colors that are somewhat complementary to yellow (rather than clashing) and green and black suit that need about as well as anything.
Tried a deep Charcoal Grey with Crimson Red? It's not midnight black, but better "hiding" colors.
TT
York supports 50 fighters, with two hard points. So mounting one Overlord and Sassanid a would be a great way to move an advance cluster of a Kindraa.
The other option is to "find" and upgrade an old Robinson. Though I have the feeling that non made it with the exodus fleet. Too bad, they have some real potential.
This article, which touches on Mandrill aerospace via looking at their RATs, might be helpful to you.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,5112.0.html (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,5112.0.html)
FM: CC says the Mick-Kreese OmniFighter Command Binary specializes in naval warfare and upper atmosphere operations, almost never fighting close to the ground.
That suggests to me they use heavier airframes for the bulk of that force. In space, you generally want heavies. You can use thrusters to turn to offset the lack of speed, while having all that hull armor and firepower of the heavies or perhaps mediums.
So I'm picturing an aerospace binary with a strong contingent of heavies like the Kirghiz or Jengiz. Alongside some Visigoths/Jagatai which will be better able to dogfight most fighters. There might be a small number of light fighters, like a single point to each Star, for interceptor/recon work.
That article I referenced above suggests they have the Scytha? I do in fact see it on many parts of the FM: Updates RAT for Mandrill frontline aerospace. If true, that's an impressive bird and an expensive one that I'm guessing they have to import from the Falcons. I never thought of the Scytha as being a Fire Mandrill machine. If they have any of those I could see them being somewhat prized and therefore a command unit would be a good place for them.
Thank you :smiley:
Take out dropships and escorting warships yes, sure.
They'd definitely want the ability to fight other pilots and win in Zell dogfights. Which is by far the most common thing they'd be doing in terms of combat.
The typical Mandrill trial is definitely a smaller size Zell fight. The Command Binary would want to be able to get involved in those now and then. Whether as a whole (the entire Binary) or as a slice of the unit that gets bid into a Trial now and then.
This unit would be the Kindraa leader's cornerstone for any fight they decide to get involved in personally. That could mean outside the Kindraa for sure but it could also mean a fight from within the Kindraa. Like some Star Colonel challenges a decision via a Trial of Refusal. In many cases the disposition of the forces (the odds) is a reflection of the vote.
I could see the Kindraa Leader relying on that Command Binary for some fights like that, and just anything the Kindraa Leader decides to get personally involved in.
I could absolutely also just see the Kindraa Leader leading that binary over toward the enclave of another Kindraa or another Clan now and then just to find a good fight and to keep up the warrior reputation of the unit.
On the Mick-Kreese page of FM: CC under Officers it says Andrew Kreese is an accomplished pilot and a "veteran Warship captain."
I don't think that means he's a warship captain NOW, I think that speaks to his codex/history up to this point. He's done both, he's capable at both. He probably started his career as a pilot and sustained that while jumping over to naval command at some point in his career, maintaining both his skills as a pilot as well as serving as a warship officer for some period of time.
I don't think as Kindraa Leader he'd be wearing that hat as well. The simple fact is he wouldn't always be present. Just by being on-planet for example, if your warships are at a standard jump point, then you are probably around 7 days travel (maybe more, maybe less) to get to them. If they get caught up in an action or emergency immediately, the Kindraa Leader would need days to arrive. That's assuming he's even in the same solar system.
Warships (any spacecraft really) need someone in command able to manage the day-to-day operations.
So to me it isn't realistic that the Kindraa Leader would command either or both warships simultaneously.
We've seen most Clans have a designated Star Admiral occupying a fleet command role. Same thing comes to mind here. Makes sense when you consider that many jumpships/dropships, at least on paper, are organized into naval stars of those types with a Star Commodore over them.
So in total you'd have something like:
2 Warship Star Commodores (one per warship in command)
1-2 Jumpship Star Commodores (each commanding a jumpship star of 5-6 vessels each)
2-3 Dropship Star Commodores (each commanding a dropship star of 5-6 vessels each)
It could even be more than that (or perhaps less, perhaps the Potemkin means Mick-Kreese doesn't need as many jumpships for certain duties and situations at least). But when you add that up and realize you are probably talking about a fleet command revolving around 5+ Star Commodores, having a Star Admiral over that bunch looks increasingly likely.
See this was my follow up thoughts and questions as well. I had not through the depth of the kindraa org chart… as a kindraa leader is essential a mini khan or khan of his or hers mini clan of you like then as you noted kreese likely would be wrapped up in the politicking rather then punching aspect of clan life.
To be fair, in the Clans, and maybe especially in the Mandrills, a great deal of that politicking is the punching! :laugh:
Hey Yo! :drinking01:
Why do you think powerful fleet is the winning formula for a Mick-Kreese breakout to success?
The only reason that works for the Ravens, is because they are able to sustain themselves with a lot of naval infrastructure that the other Clans need. They became the one-stop-shop for all things naval. For example they maintained and built the Carrier-class dropships for all the Clans. Also they still maintained a decent array of ground forces, it just gets overshadowed by their fleet.
The Cloud Cobras went the aero/fleet route, and they are ok, but they aren't very powerful. They have among the smallest toumans of all the Clans. They held what they had by choosing their battles (and enemies and allies) very carefully so they were never the focus of attention too much. I can't see a Kindraa successfully emulating this strategy while simultaneously trying to become more powerful. Because it attracts just the wrong kind of attention, especially from the other Kindraa who are going to be upset about the shift in the balance of power.
IMO, ultra-powerful fleet isn't how Mick-Kreese cracks the top 3 Kindraa. They need infrastructure (factories, raw materials etc), and that's probably, mostly, going to be ground-based. Which means you need enclaves, which means you need ground forces to take and defend.
It's worth noting that FM: Updates speaks very highly of Mick-Kreese-Kline. Politically, militarily, the feel is that this Kindraa is somewhat ascendant. Why? Because they added more ground forces. And because of their alliance with the Blood Spirits. Though that last deal doesn't ultimately pan out so well in the long view of things. They needed a more powerful and well-connected ally. The Blood Spirits were too resource-poor and too politically marginalized. But that issue aside, it was generally the right idea for making Mick-Kreese more powerful.
So I just don't see "big fleet Mick-Kreese" as the answer. Adding another warship or three while their ground forces look the same, doesn't create the advantages that are needed. Adding another 3-4 Clusters of ground forces, allowing the Kindraa to really expand the territory it controls is, to me, the more correct path.
If you were absolutely determined to go "big fleet Mick-Kreese" then I think you'd need to play the game like the Ravens did. Control one of the shipyards. Or build one. Start churning out dropships or jumpships to trade with other Clans. Offer up repair services as well. Be that kind of naval power. Yes, you now have the means to maintain a bigger fleet, but you also have something that you can market to the other Clans.
But I'm not at all convinced the other Clans, or the other Kindraa, would allow Mick-Kreese to play that game. The threat of another Clan trying to take that shipyard way via a Trial of Possession would be very high. Mick-Kreese's 2 warships and a fair number of ASFs doesn't represent much of a deterrent against the full naval might of even an average Clan fleet.
I think another Clan, like the Star Adders for example, who have a large fleet but canon regards as needing more naval infrastructure, particularly after the Burrock absorption, would LOVE to swoop in and grab that Mick-Kreese shipyard to add to their own naval capacity. That would be a tempting target to somebody.
That makes more sense to me.
In terms of ground forces, that could mean protomechs but it could mean other things. Mick-Kreese leans heavily into elementals. Maybe they continue to lean heavily into BA and deploy a lot more of them. Think elemental-heavy clusters. But in some combined-arms clusters that does have a 'mech trinary and maybe even a vehicle trinary. For additional firepower and mobility such as mechanized BA tactics.
I'd look to the Diamond Sharks of FM: WC for inspiration. That's another Clan that relied heavily on aerospace in some Clusters, but also had a lot of elemental exclusive bloodnames and so you see a few Elemental-heavy Clusters here and there. The 7th Cruiser Cluster, the 21st Strike Cluster, 8th Cruiser Cluster. Being good examples. That would lean into the influence that the Micks and Goulets have over the Kindraa.
To add an aero component to that. We've seen tactics where the Clans deploy lots of elementals from hovering dropships. The Jade Falcons conducted a big elemental drop like this on top of a Lyran command post on Melissia during the FedCom Civil War.
Imagine a Mick-Kreese offensive action that combined some of that, a large-scale elemental combat drop, with a simultaneous forward march of other ground forces intended to push in and link up with the dropped elementals, combined yet again with aerospace fighters providing air-to-ground support, particularly against 'mechs.
I think that's how you make BA+ASFs (as the predominant arms of your military, with 'mechs/vees only appearing in smaller numbers and specialized roles like BA carrier and direct/indirect fire support) look like a winning formula that nets a few enclaves. Then yes (if era appropriate), eventually you'd be looking to add some number of Protos to that as well.
That probably sounds like the warships don't do much. But if you can secure air/space superiority, you can use those warships to bring your forces in, as well as droppers loaded with their supporting units and supplies, and sit in space over the target enclave and just keep deploying combat units space-to-ground to sustain a longer assault in more than one wave (and more than one wave of supporting units and supplies). So the warships represent transport/escort/carrier as well as command and control. Eventually someone is going to challenge that space superiority with warships of their own in an attempt to disrupt Mick-Kreese's assault, and that's where a naval battle probably happens.
After let's say 5-20 years of this kind of thing being repeated a few times and generally going well (maybe even so well that Mick-Kreese absorbed another Kindraa along the way), with a lot more enclaves under your control, and a lot more ground forces, you can start to think about expanding the navy. By that point the Kindraa might be in a good enough position to just pay (or conduct a trade for) the Ravens to refit a cached warship or two for active service for them.
At that point, regardless of that last part of expanding the fleet, they'd be a contender for being among the Top 3 Kindraa.
A lot of things would have to go right though. Getting dragged into a sizable air war with Beyl-Grant that costs you a lot of your air power would be one way for this to go horribly wrong. You'd have to cease operations to rebuild. You'd be depending a lot on that air power to offset your lack of 'mechs and losing that, and losing air superiority would be devastating. The other big danger is the other Kindraa gang up against Mick-Kreese, forcing them to go defensive and reactionary everywhere (having lost the initiative), likely suffering heavy losses in the process. So having a plan to disrupt the other Kindraa, or pit them against each other so they are distracted and can't focus on Mick-Kreese. That would probably be a crucial part of the plan that Mick-Kreese would need a solution for from the beginning.
But what I've written above, if handled the right way at some point in Fire Mandrill history, to me is the most sensible way that Mick-Kreese would have, theoretically, ascended to being one of the top Kindraa.
You are correct in that it isn't really covered by the lore. This topic just isn't covered well or consistently by canon sources. It would make a lot of sense to me if Clan units had a few warriors in a replacement pool ready to step up. That's generally how many real world militaries work. For example, air force units will often have more pilots and even more airframes than their official strength would suggest, just so if a pilot is sick or if a machine is broken, the unit can still put the number of birds in the air that their flight assignments require of them.
This practical reality is seldom reflected or discussed in Battletech. On either side, Clan or Inner Sphere forces. Units always seem to be held at full strength (exactly) as much as possible. With the frequent mentions of depleted strength for units that saw combat recently and then references to that unit rebuilding its strength.
Make of that what you will, because the books don't help.
I don't think it's anything quite like that or that deep. In fact, I'm not at all convinced there's any reserve pool at all.
Four primary sources of replenishment I can think of, none immediately same-day available. So if a warrior is sick or wounded or dead, that unit is just down a warrior in the short term.
1. FM: WC/CC tell us on page 18/17 respectively that primary training centers graduate new warriors every 3-6 months. So that's one source of replacements.
2. Existing warriors in other units/assignments. So a slot opens up in a front-line unit. That's a desirable assignment. Some warrior in a second-line unit gets to move up. We have numerous references that this kind of thing happens. A lot of it happened after big losses, like the Battle of Tukayyid for the Invading Clans as they rebuilt their toumans and the aftermath of the Refusal War for the Falcons and Wolves. It works in reverse too, with warriors no longer deemed to be of front-line quality slipping to a second-line unit.
3. An odd mention, warriors detached from line units that work their way back into the touman. The biggest category of which is participants in a Trial of Bloodright. Warriors participating in a Trial of Bloodright effectively get pulled away from their units. Sometimes they even have to travel great distances. The Trial of Bloodright itself can last a while, days, weeks. The rounds themselves aside, the entire affair is very traditional and ceremonial in nature, with ceremonies at the beginning and end. So at any given time, you have a slice of warriors detached, doing this kind of thing. Once they return (which might represent a kind of rolling, fairly predictable loss-to-gain of warriors) such warriors would be available to be plugged back into the touman wherever there is greatest need. There are certainly other forms of these detached warriors, like the tradition of a warrior escorting a fallen warrior's giftake to the genetic repository, or warriors detached to liasion with the lower castes. However in sheer numbers, I think Trials of Bloodright would represent a large rolling pool of people exiting and returning to line duty at any given time.
4. Bondsmen. Yup. I can definitely see some bondsmen getting their timetable for a return to warrior status bumped up if the Clan/Kindraa feels like it needs bodies and the bondsmen were already about 75%-95% there in terms of having earned it already.
Outside of those categories. I honestly suspect that until one of those helps fill the gap, the unit is just understrength. The Mandrills in particular have just never struck me as a Clan that had a deep reserve of anything. They've always been portrayed as being on the razor's edge of existence. With the daily struggle for survival that is much more obvious compared to some of the other Clans with deeper pockets of resources to draw upon.
Given this portrayal of the Mandrills, I could even see them having even less of a reserve capacity (whatever that might be) than most other Clans and whatever they are doing. After all, when we see a Kindraa take heavy losses in a single large scale battle/campaign/Trial the topic of their absorption or merger seems to come up pretty quickly. Like everyone just already knows they just don't have the reserve capacity of warriors or machines to rebuild back up to strength anytime soon. It never feels like the Kindraa has a lot of "extra" anything (warriors, machines etc.) to draw upon.
If there's an upside for the Mandrills it might just be the fact that they are so compact in terms of territory. A typical Kindraa isn't spread out across too many worlds. That could mean in turn that it doesn't take very long to plug in a replacement warrior. If any of the above sources (1-4) happen to be nearby (or the same planet even), the incoming replacements could be close by to start with.
All of this is largely speculative, but it's my best guess that I think jives with the canon facts we do have.
EDIT: I wanted to add, I think this line is very telling, from the Mick-Kreese page of FM: CC
The Kindraa Mick-Kreese has been pushing at Kindraa Beyi-Grant for years, probing for a soft spot that would allow the Mick-Kreese to steal a portion of their rival's strength. So far, however, this Kindraa has been unwilling to engage in all-out naval warfare, which would likely result in one of the two feuding Kindraa being Absorbed.
So the consensus is if these Kindraa engage in an all-out large scale fight, someone is getting absorbed, probably whoever emerges as the weaker one. They make it sound like it's all but a certainty. That to me adds to the idea that the Mandrill Kindraa just don't have any reserve capacity of machines or warriors. If a Kindraa takes heavy losses on a large scale, it's done, it's game over, unless they can absorb another Kindraa and recoup some of their strength that way very quickly and stand themselves back up again with their absorbed warriors and machines.
Compare that to other Clans that have taken heavy losses before, but then were able to rebuild if they could keep the predators at bay.
Another comparison that comes to mind is hard-luck mercenary units. Scraping by, scrounging equipment, living paycheck-to-paycheck, and if they take heavy losses one day and it isn't immediately followed by a massive inflow of money/salvage or other resources, it might just be game over for the unit. They might just have to fold. The Kindraa themselves would truly hate that comparison obviously given the Clan attitude toward mercenaries, but that's what it reminds me of.
I always though they had the best names for Naval Units:
1. Jungle Heat/Fire Eater -Sovetskii Soyuz-class Heavy Cruiser
2. Reaver Potemkin-class Troop Cruiser
3. Rage Lola III-class Destroyer
4. Anathma Lola III-class Destroyer
5. Rancor Lola III-class Destroyer
6. Firetender Vincent Mk. 42-class Corvette
7. Firehold Carrack-class Transport
I have always had questions on the utility of a single kindraa mick kreese Kline owning a Potemkin. My understanding is the are very powerful with huge transport capacity but for one galaxy sized org? Sounds like overkill… do we think the kindraa parlayed that into trading transport for favors etc from other kindraa?
Most likely. After all when Amanda Carroll tried to unite the Clan she encouraged more "intra clan trade" So maybe she gave Mick-Kreese-Kline this resource in a way to placate them. Somehow like the Star LEague developed the Is to be dependent on each other which in turn makes conflict less likely
I don't think we've ever seen a single mobile dropship factory design (as a single dropship not fused to something).
I suspect because dropships and dropship collars are just too valuable for other things. Making a factory mobile is hard and complicated, and to do it right you'd also need to give people living space and amenities.
I don't have the book that covers HH-1. So I don't know a lot about it.
I think he meant standalone dropship that is also a mobile factory, that can be hauled around by an unmodified Potemkin. I could be wrong though. I interpreted his post as an attempt to explore how to magnify the value of an unmodified Potemkin, particularly in areas like commerce or exploiting resources or industrial roles like factories.
I don't have the book that covers HH-1. So I don't know a lot about it.
You, one of my favorite scholars of the Clans, don't have WoR?! I'm genuinely shocked! :shocked:
Oh its in WoR? My mistake, its sarna site references Objectives: The Clans. That's the one I don't have. I do have WoR. Compliment noted and appreciated though fellow Clan scholar. :smiley:
HH-1 is a modular space station based on a Star League design similar to the earlier Wolf's Dragoons Hesphesteus station. It can be disassembled into component sections which are then carried by a FTL transport. So it's semi-portable rather than being mobile by itself.