Swarm Tactics...Without Being a Jerk?

[YingJanshi]

Okay, have a question for all of you: how do you effectively use swarm type units and tactics without becoming someone that everyone refuses to play against? It is a valid tactic, especially if you are playing a militia style unit. Take the posterchild for this playstyle: the Savannah Master. It would be suicidal to use a SM against anything solo. Ideally you would want at least a lance of them taking on another target. And yet that can feel....Munchy...


So how do you use swarm tactics and units without being a Jerk?

[Force of Nature]

Don't use Savannah masters at all. Don't use swarm tactics against them at all if there is a chance that someone may end up refusing to play against you. It is more important that you keep them playing against you and enjoying the challenge/game than it is to boost your ego for a game and then they never want to play again.

Did that with my brother once. Stomped him in one game way back in the late 80s (no swarm tactics were used) and then after that he never wanted to play Battletech against me again.

[GoldBishop]

Can't really come off as "not a jerk" but, for the sake of the question, you're right - its a valid tactic.

Here are my suggestions:

Maps
Offer to play on mapsheets that can ill-support your troops.  For the Hovercraft (your Savannah sample), rocky or wooded areas deny you as much area as your swarm-tactics can pull off.  For treds/wheels, go offroad or in swampy, watery maps.  If you can manage, choose the least-favorable map for your type and lower your own ego for a fight or few (not meant to be snarky, but you know your own skill, play to your weaknesses).

Fair Game
If your opponents know that you always field swarm units, offer them ways to defeat your tactics.  Artillery is certainly good at doing that, as are flak-weapons to cripple/defeat vees, and pulse boats/inferno against infantry.  Every tactic has a flaw; share and explore options to defeat your own forces... and then allow yourself to develop a counter-counter to their counter. 

Match Themes
Offer to play games with objectives like "King of the Hill" or "Capture the Flag". This allows you to still field your own mix of Swarm while requiring you to purchase at least 1 or 2 BattleMechs (so you have a chance to win as well).  You could also follow specific scenarios supplied in some of the books, or "re-enact" some famous battles from the novels/fluff.  There are more to playing BattleTech than just stand-up fights.

Diversify
As a last resort, change your tactics.  You know you want to play Swarm... why not let someone else play with your forces while you try out different tactics?  Or help your peers design their own swarm while you develop counter-swarm tactics with your own units.

[Colt Ward]

I think it depends on who you are playing . . . and no offense to Force, IMO the problem was the response to the game not that his brother lost.

One-off games are a bit easier to control with that sort of things as you set the terms before showing . . . 4-8 units, X BV, skills at blah-blah, mechs only/combined arms/no ASF/whatever and this sort of map.  Everyone knows the terms and what will be happening.  Some will take advantage of having more units, others will sink all sorts of power in a single unit- IIRC someone took a Stealth Pillager to a MO game that was most of their BV . . . and lost it early to a headshot from a gauss rifle.

Campaign, swarm might be expected and it should be dictated by the story.

[GreekFire]

I'm a definite advocate of Swarm tactics. I enjoy fielding larger numbers of ProtoMechs or Vehicles to restrict enemy options. Even when I only play with 'Mechs I'll go for lighter ones, using numbers and combined slashing attacks to gain the advantage. This doesn't mean that I do so willy nilly, with all of my games having half a map covered with my units.

I game with a regular group, so they all know what I enjoy playing. This lets them build around it, and if they want to try something new without getting Proto/Light-ganked then they let me know and I field something different. That way they always have at least a few of the right tools to deal with what I'm gonna field (and I usually have a small idea of what they're going for as well), ultimately giving us a funner game. For us, there's no enjoyment in being told "welp, you've got no flak so you automatically lose against this VTOL-using player" and the like. Now, I'm not saying you have to hand over a list of everything you're gonna bring, but if every player says something like "I'm bringing a lot of Protos", "I'm bringing a couple AeroFighters", "I'm bringing mostly laser-boats" then no one gets royally screwed for a no-fun game.

So I guess some transparency is important. If you're playing completely blind in a competitive environment or something, then try slightly more expensive/less numerous swarms. Make sure you buy things that should keep the overall unit ratio between players at reasonable levels, instead of doing something like fielding 90 Cecerops in an 8k game. But if you want to field twenty units against his (projected) five, then that's part of the game. These tactics are counterable, you just have to be prepared. And if they refuse to load up on the right weapons, then that's their issue. Same goes for any uncommon but potentially abusive tactic, like AeroSpace bombing, massed infantry or pulse jumpers.

[Liam's Ghost]

Avoid cheesy mechanics abuses, such as preventing a unit from moving by surrounding it with your swarm and just stopping because you can't pass through an enemy occupied hex.

Also, treat your swarm like they're people. A Savannah master isn't a cruise missile. Even if you have a casual disregard for their life, don't use them like they do too.

[Maingunnery]

Well there are also a few players like me that don't care if they are facing Swarm user. That is because I know how to counter them quite well.

But from my point of view it would look better if the enemy had a more diverse swarm, so no 10 points of elementals, but '2 points x 5 BA types' of BA.

[Nahuris]

I have used light vehicle tactics successfully, in many games. The first thing is to realize that the more units you use, the harder it is for your opposition to deal with it. Second, that each one of those light units has a different advantage, and setting up a game that favors that advantage, where the opponent feels trapped, or railroaded, is when the tactic causes anger.

So, first mix it up a little -- one lance of Savannah Masters, or Gabriels is fine....per about 4000 to 5000 BV2. At that point, it is replacing one or two fast light mechs.... which, as long as the rest of the force is fairly balanced against the opposition, shouldn't be a major issue. Especially if there is enough terrain on the table, that it isn't all about the fast hover tanks.

I would also note to your opponent, that you do use combined arms, so that they know that the possibility is there ..... that way, they can have a few LBX armed mechs, or similar. I once had an opponent use 18 Savannah Masters, along with other units, on the table, against me --- (there was more than one person per side, but he and I had created the forces), but, as I knew that there was the possibility, I was able to field a Wolftrap, which is an awesome hover tank hunter, and an Assassin, the variant with the LBX5. It was still a hard battle, but because my side had some knowledge that we might face that, we were able to include something to deal..... so it wasn't a total kick in the seat.

Finally, spam is never good ---- in the above scenario, the planet in question, had just gotten the Savannah Masters, as a means to police shipping over some fairly large shallow inland seas.... so it made sense, and since we were attacking right after they were delivered..... their pilots were average 4/5 gunner pilots, rather than elite, but they did just happen to be together, rather than spread out in pairs in the 9 districts..... (that was how we justified them all on the field) ---- but, outside of this rare occurrence, spam is bad. It's one thing if you run into a militia with a lance of Scorpion Light tanks, a lance of Savannah Masters, and maybe a couple of other Hover tanks, plus some older tech, or sub-optimal mechs.....  with a couple of better designs, to give a little spine..... or you instead run into a pair of Hellstars, supported by a battalion of Savannah Masters.

In the end, you CAN play with the swarm rules, but really, it falls under the Don't be a Dick rule....
My Comstar defenders once had 8 Gabriels, 2 Pike Support Vehicles, and 2 lances of mixed light and Medium 3025 defenders, versus an Equal BV2 mercenary company of mechs...... one of the merc lances were 3050 upgrades, while the rest were 3025.... and it was surprisingly equal ---- and everyone had a good time, while a couple of players learned respect for the Pike.

So, go ahead and do it, but keep some thought into what you do.

Nahuris

[Fear Factory]

My swarm tactics come in the form of anything I can get from Quickscell.   O:-)

[YingJanshi]

Thanks for the responses guys. :)

I know the OP wasn't much to go on but I was in a bit of a hurry when I posted it and wasn't quite sure how to phrase it. To be honest I don't use swarm tactics. And most of the time when you hear someone using such...they usually aren't painted very nicely. Which why I asked. I don't use vees much, mostly because they always seem to want more on the table than if I do an all 'Mech force (I mean, if I do a mixed company of vees and 'Mechs, I always feel like I don't have enough vees). However some units do seem tailor made for such tactics: the Savannah Master, Gabrial, Vedette, Scorpion, Protos. So I wanted to know how to effectively use them, without trying to stomp someone abusively. In all of my games I play against players that have a very "it's all in fun" attitude. While we'll beat each other mercilessly in game, at the end it's all about having fun and not so much winning (especially since I hardly ever win ;D). We also don't play all that often, so still learning new tactics and new play styles.

[Nahuris]

I am partial to flatbed trucks with an LRM20 stuck on it..... I roll up, spray my missiles, and then head out.
I actually have a number of vehicles that I have designed, using GHQ miniatures, that I use as "Technicals" or planetary level garrison designs, usually with ICE engines, and designed to provide support for the local militia, and troops. I go out of my way to make sure that they are something that could reasonably be made, considering Battletech's history and what's in the novels...
However, per those same novels, there are instances where a local guy, using 6 hunting rifles, makes a "machine gun" that gets mounted on an industrial mech..... along with people building and mounting AC's, etc.... in that same novel, and a majority of the planets in Battletech have at least, an 80's tech base.... so that is fairly broad.

But the thing is, while these vehicles might be common, at least on a planet that makes them, they are going to be located at sites that need defending, not roaming the countryside looking for mechs to get in fights with. And, you are likely to have only 3 or 4 there..... as the others on planet are probably guarding whatever installation, building, phone network center, or whatever they are assigned to. However, they should not be discounted, nor should players shy away from using small light inexpensive stuff...... Players that refuse to fight "swarm tactics" are failing to understand one of the basic tenets of the game..... where, even in the books, it says that "while mechs are rare, there are no limits to the number of men that can be thrown into combat, willingly, or not"

It's a fact of the battletech universe.... and while we, as players, might prefer to field the special forces units of mechs...... warfare, in the Battletech universe, is fought with what's available..... else, why have combat knives in the equipment sections?

Nahuris

[jackpot4]

There is a massive difference between playing to enjoy the game and playing to win at all costs with a complete disregard of other player's enjoyment of the game.  That is a balance to keep in mind.  Some more selfish players will blame the opposition for not playing what they have no interest in playing, just to be able to be competitive.  Some people seem to think jumping mechs with pulse lasers and TC in every unit is completely acceptable, but that is certainly not within the realm of gamer etiquette. 

[Nahuris]

There is a massive difference between playing to enjoy the game and playing to win at all costs with a complete disregard of other player's enjoyment of the game.  That is a balance to keep in mind.  Some more selfish players will blame the opposition for not playing what they have no interest in playing, just to be able to be competitive.  Some people seem to think jumping mechs with pulse lasers and TC in every unit is completely acceptable, but that is certainly not within the realm of gamer etiquette.

I'll admit to having a dislike to facing improved jump jets, targeting computers, and Clan pulse lasers in a single package......but, it does happen. Just as I have been on both sides of swarms. A well balanced force has a reasonable chance against this, as long as the whole battlefield is not set up to support it. If my opponent is using all Savannah Masters, and then picks terrain that is nothing but open grasslands, with strategic clumps of trees, just where he needs to do turns..... then yes, that is a bit cheesy.... not unbeatable, but definitely cheesy.... and yes, I would feel some frustration. On the other hand, we had a recent battle where the terrain was canyon style ridges, and clefts of rock fading into an area of open desert with a few dunes. The slower units were able to use the terrain to balance the high speed units, and the battle was awesome, with some great firefights happening around some of the outcroppings or clefts......  yet, one side did have a company of hover tanks, along with another company of tracked, supporting a company of medium mechs, with at least one lance of those tracked tanks being Myrmidons.This was versus 2 Companies of mostly medium to heavy mechs with some tracked support. The hover tanks got to shine, and dealing with hull down tanks, along with units that could hide behind level 1 hills and sand dunes created a very unique battle, that I thoroughly enjoyed, and that everyone who played, had nothing but praise for. And that includes the pilot of the Heavy mech that tried to storm a hill and take a pair of Myrmidons.... who promptly got swarmed by 4 of the hover tanks, along with the 2 Myrmidons...... his remark was "damn, I forgot that they hadn't moved yet.... this is probably going to hurt."

In the end, it's not the swarm that is bad --- it is the way it is used and presented. If the whole battle is set up for the swarm player to humiliate or curbstomp an opponent, then it is going to cause some frustration, if not outright anger...... and really no different than facing one opponent that I played against once stated that his unit was "pretty well balanced, at X BV2", but was instead all custom assault mechs with nothing but AC/20's SRM's and medium lasers --- but with double heat sinks..... and the battle set up, at his table, where the play area was slightly less than 2 map sheets of usable terrain, with terrain designed to force all fighting at ranges of 4 or less.

The best thing that I can advise players is to talk it out first...... make sure that your opposition knows that you are considering a unit designed along those lines. And share the choice of terrain..... so that it is fair to both, or all of, the players.

Nahuris

[Kovax]

I would have to say that it depends on your definition of "swarm".  A lance is NOT a swarm.  A company may be a swarm, depending on what it is, how it's used, and what it's facing.  A battalion of something IS a swarm, no question.

If you're each typically fielding 12 or more units per side, and you up that to 24 "lighter" ones, then that's probably within reason, provided that you don't pull stunts like surrounding the opponent to deny movement.  If one guy's fielding a lance, and expects that you'll field the same, but you show up with 24 Savannah Masters and/or Gabriels instead, that's a swarm.  If he's aware that you may do that, doesn't question or complain about it in advance, and still chooses to field 4 'Mechs, then it's a swarm, but that's his problem.  I still wouldn't do that under "normal" circumstances, but an abnormal game can be fun once in a while, if everyone knows in advance that anything goes in that particular game.  One guy shows up with gobs of off-board artillery and a lone VTOL spotter, another shows up with 200 platoons of infantry, yet another shows up with 50 light hovers, and the last guy fields nothing but aerospace fighters, and then you all have to laugh at how ridiculous and unplayable it is before you break out the standard 'Mech record sheets again.

[Col.Hengist]

I have to disagree with one thing the OP said. The Savannah master is definatly a match for a mech... A locust.  O:-)

 Swarm tactics have been used on me ( you posted on here, you know who you are  :D ) . it's a very effective tactic. People say I do it too but I disagree with that assessment. I enjoy combined arms. Lately in my games I will use 4-6 platoons of infantry with carriers, fast hovers, mbt's and, being a Lyran Social General, at least one lance of assault mechs. This is a 15k bv2 force.
 I can definatly swarm with this force. Here's what I say if people say that I'm swarming, I enjoy combined arms. It's not really my fault if they don't. Maybe the people you game with should step up their game. A big combined arms game with artillery and Asf can be so much fun.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Just because people don't enjoy playing the game the same way you do doesn't mean they need to change.  Some people just don't like running too many units at one time.  Trying to force them to is just going to wind up causing frustration.

[Nahuris]

I have to disagree with one thing the OP said. The Savannah master is definatly a match for a mech... A locust.  O:-)

 Swarm tactics have been used on me ( you posted on here, you know who you are  :D ) . it's a very effective tactic. People say I do it too but I disagree with that assessment. I enjoy combined arms. Lately in my games I will use 4-6 platoons of infantry with carriers, fast hovers, mbt's and, being a Lyran Social General, at least one lance of assault mechs. This is a 15k bv2 force.
 I can definatly swarm with this force. Here's what I say if people say that I'm swarming, I enjoy combined arms. It's not really my fault if they don't. Maybe the people you game with should step up their game. A big combined arms game with artillery and Asf can be so much fun.

Yes, I have used swarm tactics on you.....LOL.  Then again, you like to play the Lyran Stereotypical Social General, and I am not into assault slug fests..... meaning I will probably outnumber you every time we go that particular route........

At the same time, though, I have always given fair warning, and let you know what I had planned. Which is why it ended up being fun, because there is using quantity over quality play.... and using huge numbers with the intent of manipulating the rule system, for a victory. I have no problem with proto mechs --- and Col Hengist has promised me a fight with them... but while I know he will use them well, I also know that I won't be put in a place where he uses so many, that I lose the ability to move all of my units.
Now, he probably could pull that one off..... and our games can get fairly competitive.... but we also respect each other enough to not go out of our way to Cheese a victory..... if we are going to win, we are going to earn it, and respect each other afterwards. And I think that is the real difference... those of us that respect the game, and our opponents will use those tactics, but, we abide by the "Don't be a Dick" rule.......those people that use these tactics with the intent of just winning, or more often, totally curbstomping their opponent, really don't gain much from it...... so, you won by a technicality in the rules...... at our table, we had the same tactics, or play.... but we had a great time, no one left angry, and the winners congratulated the other side for their well played forces. The game should be played for fun  --- not to prove some imagined superiority, and regardless of tactics used, it is easy to tell when you are playing one type, or the other.

So, for the OP -- go ahead, build the force that you want, and play it, but keep the principles of fun play on the table, and expect that your opponent might surprise you in turn.

Nahuris

[Col Toda]

Swarm tactics particularly with Savannah Masters  tend to only work in tandem with other units . I can believe a lance of Assault Mechs and 3 lances of Savannah Masters fighting together . Just Savannah Masters would be suicide as the enemy would only have hit equals kill targets and it would take forever to finish the fight . It would be moral destroying . The enemy must have a higher priority target available to them otherwise the inherent loss of life is too high and invites mutiny and desertion.The scenario becomes less believable.

[Caedis Animus]

My regular and I made it simple; Both sides must always have the same number of units at the start of combat. If he feels flooding the field with light units is acceptable, it is perfectly acceptable for me to respond in typical Steiner fashion; Have a literal 'Wall of Steel'. Just... With Zeuses and Atlases flooding my side of the court. Considering our unit count is always between 8v8 and 12v12, this has nasty results.

So basically, we have an honor rule in effect on this.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I didn't answer the question in the slightest, and just mentioned how I kept it from happening.

I guess I'd have to say that it depends on the demeanor of your opponent and their unit list. I would not recommend using swarm tactics on people with anger issues, or are just getting started. But in any case, it's hard to use swarm tactics without being 'unrealistic' or being a jerk. To the point of where I have trouble seeing where you can do it within a tolerable capacity.

[garhkal]

The best thing that I can advise players is to talk it out first...... make sure that your opposition knows that you are considering a unit designed along those lines. And share the choice of terrain..... so that it is fair to both, or all of, the players.

Nahuris

Which is why when i do pick up games, i prefer BOTH (or all if more than 2 players are going to be there) agree before hand on what terrain is in play, rules sets etc if at all possible.

[TigerShark]

Fix the init system and all of this goes away. There's no more debate to be had. We have endless debates about swarms, cheese this, tactics that, when most of the problem is in the rules. They haven't been revised in years and it seems to be time for a revision.

We've been using Front-Loaded Initiative in MegaMek for years and it's a far more viable system than what's in TW currently. I don't see a reason to use anything else, IMO. It would be nice to have that as a formal rule in IO or added in the newest eduction of TacOps. The idea of "swarms" vaporizes into thin air.

The way I see it, it's like putting a bunch of traffic cones on a walkway, blocking every path but a small, thin lane. People will struggle to line up, jam into a single line and waddle forward, griping about traffic. In reality, you can just move the cones and people are free to go.

Language
The reality is that the TW rule can be errata'ed to fix the problem. When calculating the number of units being moved by the larger side, it rounds down. Instead, round up. Problem is fixed.

Example:

Side A has 4 units.
Side B has 11 units.

Code: [Select]

TURN 1 (Current)
Side A moves 1 [3 remaining]
Side B moves 2 [9 remaining]
(11/4 = 2.75, rounded down = 2)

TURN 1 (Proposed)
Side A moves 1 [3 remaining]
Side B moves 3 [8 remaining]
(11/4 = 2.75, rounded up = 3)


TURN 2 (Current)
Side A moves 1 [2 remaining]
Side B moves 3 [6 remaining]

TURN 2 (Proposed)
Side A moves 1 [2 remaining]
Side B moves 3 [5 remaining]


TURN 3 (Current)
Side A moves 1 [1 remaining]
Side B moves 3 [3 remaining]

TURN 3 (Proposed)
Side A moves 1 [1 remaining]
Side B moves 3 [2 remaining]

Huge difference on the table, where you remove the initial swarm advantage and lessen its effect throughout the game and for a very simple fix.

[Nahuris]

I've run games without initiative --- using the same rules that are in Full Thrust, where people note down their movement, secret from everyone else, and then everyone moves at once.......it makes for faster games, where people don't agonize while counting hexes over and over, before moving, and it also kills the if I win, I attack, and if I lose I run/jump away so that no fire happens, and we waste that turn, and the next, getting back to the battle... but only if I win that die roll, or it just keeps on...........

Nahuris

[GreekFire]

Frontloading does help with initiative things a bit, especially if you've got a player who tends to abuse initiative sinks. But it isn't the be-all, end-all way to fix lighter swarms. Certain abusable tactics - such as cheap ProtoMech swarms - can actually be assisted through the use of frontloading.

I will however agree that if your gaming group is up for it, it's a nice alternative to the standard initiative rules.

[TigerShark]

Frontloading does help with initiative things a bit, especially if you've got a player who tends to abuse initiative sinks. But it isn't the be-all, end-all way to fix lighter swarms. Certain abusable tactics - such as cheap ProtoMech swarms - can actually be assisted through the use of frontloading.

I will however agree that if your gaming group is up for it, it's a nice alternative to the standard initiative rules.

I've never run ProtoMechs as separate, initiative-bearing units. 5 = 1 unit, for my games. I can't imagine 25 of them vs. 5. That's silly.

[YingJanshi]

I've run games without initiative --- using the same rules that are in Full Thrust, where people note down their movement, secret from everyone else, and then everyone moves at once.......it makes for faster games, where people don't agonize while counting hexes over and over, before moving, and it also kills the if I win, I attack, and if I lose I run/jump away so that no fire happens, and we waste that turn, and the next, getting back to the battle... but only if I win that die roll, or it just keeps on...........

Nahuris

Its an interesting system, except it gets rid of intentional charges and DFAs....

[GreekFire]

I've never run ProtoMechs as separate, initiative-bearing units. 5 = 1 unit, for my games. I can't imagine 25 of them vs. 5. That's silly.

I don't either. What I'm saying is if you frontload, you can move a total of 15 ProtoMechs instead of 10 on one of those initial turns, which can help with certain movement-limiting tactics.

[TigerShark]

I don't either. What I'm saying is if you frontload, you can move a total of 15 ProtoMechs instead of 10 on one of those initial turns, which can help with certain movement-limiting tactics.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Those little buggers are either complete toast (Siren) or they're a nightmare (Boggart). Not much in-between on Protos.

[Nahuris]

Its an interesting system, except it gets rid of intentional charges and DFAs....

If you predict where your opponent is going, then no... also, if you declare a charge, or DFA, in the rules, it is assumed you focused and went for that opponent, so you show that you declared it, and you then move after that target, either being able to reach it, or getting as close as you can.

It also changes the whole I lost initiative, so I am going to just move and then shoot, when your plan was a DFA ----

Nahuris

[Go For The Throat]

I am surprised the thread has made it this far without somebody bringing up the Force Size Modifier option out of TM. Or perhaps that was on purpose, because of how absolutely atrocious it is...

My current group deals with swarms by making them (Lances of SM's, Points of Proto's, etc...) count as one unit for initiative purposes.

Even just straight-up, I do not have a problem with swarms. Provided it is, as previously mentioned, not terrain biased in the favor of the swarm, used against new players, or the classic Company of SM's to immobilize units with a Lance of Assaults to pick them apart.

[Weirdo]

I am surprised the thread has made it this far without somebody bringing up the Force Size Modifier option out of TM. Or perhaps that was on purpose, because of how absolutely atrocious it is...

Good news! It wasn't mentioned because it's gone. Some not-so-recent errata pulled it out of TM completely. [rockon]

If you want to field a swarm without completely altering the game, try taking a swarm of something that's challenging just to keep alive. Take a swarm of WiGEs, and all it will take are a few bad sideslip rolls for your opponent to be having as much fun as you are watching your forces careen all over the map just trying to get form point A to point B, much less actually fighting. ;D