Swarm Tactics...Without Being a Jerk?

[Colt Ward]

See, I detest front-loading as IMO it encourages mech only forces and pushes to assault turret wars.  As I will run lighter but more numerous forces that allows you to move a single assault for advantage when I might move two medium tanks.  It makes a mockery of winning initiative with the more numerous force.

You brought concentrated firepower with that gaggle of assaults, I brought distributed firepower for manuever . . . which does not matter as much when I must move say two-thirds of my force by the time you only move half.

[TigerShark]

See, I detest front-loading as IMO it encourages mech only forces and pushes to assault turret wars.  As I will run lighter but more numerous forces that allows you to move a single assault for advantage when I might move two medium tanks.  It makes a mockery of winning initiative with the more numerous force.

You brought concentrated firepower with that gaggle of assaults, I brought distributed firepower for manuever . . . which does not matter as much when I must move say two-thirds of my force by the time you only move half.

You wouldn't and don't move 2/3 to their 1/2. Or, if you've seen that, could you post how that would work? I did the math above and it's pretty much impossible.

At this point in the game, the Clans are unplayable against the Inner Sphere. You could field 16 IS units to their (Clan) 5 and completely mob one unit per turn. The game turns into "walk backward and keep range while IS runs forward to kick. Rinse. Repeat."

The solutions to this usually revolve around 'don't be a jerk' or 'make sure your opponent has fun' or other such memes. The IS player becomes responsible for his opponent's fun by dumbing down their force to compensate for a bad initiative system. It really shouldn't be that way. If there's another, better way, beyond Front Load or the Round Up method described above, I'm all ears. But sticking with the current system is just leading to an endless debate and aversion to Clan - IS games.

[GreekFire]

I am surprised the thread has made it this far without somebody bringing up the Force Size Modifier option out of TM. Or perhaps that was on purpose, because of how absolutely atrocious it is...

FSM was the biggest mistake of a rule to ever come out of a BattleTech book. Gawd it was broken, and in a terrible "what the hell am I looking at" sort of way.

[Go For The Throat]

Good news! It wasn't mentioned because it's gone. Some not-so-recent errata pulled it out of TM completely. [rockon]

I am filled with the desire to name my first child after the absolutely wonderful person responsible for the removal of FSM. Seriously. Tell me who it was, they are my hero!

See, I detest front-loading as IMO it encourages mech only forces and pushes to assault turret wars.  As I will run lighter but more numerous forces that allows you to move a single assault for advantage when I might move two medium tanks.  It makes a mockery of winning initiative with the more numerous force.

You brought concentrated firepower with that gaggle of assaults, I brought distributed firepower for manuever . . . which does not matter as much when I must move say two-thirds of my force by the time you only move half.

How does front-loading encourage 'Mech-only AssaultTech? People that play that way are going to do it no matter what, at least in my experience. Sometimes you will not be able to do what you want with a unit. Whether it is because you lost initiative and have to move it first, won but your opponent moved to where you wanted to go, or your opponent moved in a completely unexpected way. Having to move a larger percentage of your force when it is your turn just goes hand-in-hand with the choice to put more units on the field. All you can do is attempt to make the best of the situation, and try to set yourself up for the next turn.

FSM was the biggest mistake of a rule to ever come out of a BattleTech book. Gawd it was broken, and in a terrible "what the hell am I looking at" sort of way.

In complete agreement! FSM has the distinction of being the only rule that would make me not want to play if it was being used. I would be willing to bet a rather sizable sum of money that either a Lyran (wall of Assaults), or Clanner came up with it.

[mike19k]

FSM what did it do/Why was it broken? I remember way back there was a rule (BMR I think, not quoting) that said mechs go one at a time but that conventional forces one platoon at a time to go with how they needed to coordinate more (or something like that).

[Go For The Throat]

FSM what did it do/Why was it broken?

Basically, FSM is an equation that penalizes a player when they take a numerically larger force than their opponent. It inflated the total BV of the larger force, simply because they had more units on the field than the other player.

[Nahuris]

For me, the initiative system has always been problematic, as it stands, anyways. In many ways, it forces people to play with heavier units, as lighter faster units, because light fast units end up being a game of chase the initiative loser. In the majority of games I have played.... which is somewhere in the thousands .... people with light units rush in when they win initiative to get that back shot, flank shot.....etc.... but when they lose, they run, or jump so as to make sure that their opponent can't. That means that their entire tactic with that fast unit has nothing to do with the battlefield, but instead, is all about maximizing / minimizing the effect of a random die roll. And before people argue about it ---- there are people who have posted here that they use fast units this way, where losing initiative means jumping away into cover, or getting away from the opponent to avoid combat without the advantage of position, from initiative. This also means that due to the vagaries of random die rolls, it is possible for one side to lose more rounds of initiative, than they win...... and each round of lost initiative, pretty much, destroys the chance of winning......

In recent games, I am seeing more and more people putting out Mobile Command Centers.... for the initiative bonus. Not as an objective, etc...., but strictly to control the initiative roll. With games starting by adding up bonuses until you find out who actually has a bonus, and the true game part of it, seeing who was willing to gamble the most BV2 for said bonus.

No other die roll affects the outcome of play, more than initiative --- and it has MORE of an effect on the table than any other rule, or unit, and it is totally random. It can be affected by units that a player brings to the table, but in the end, you are using a totally random die roll to decide tactics and movement.

When you add in the fact that 75% of players really don't have any tactics in mind, other than seeing what the initiative roll is, and then reacting from there ..... you get one of the reasons our games are so very slow and dragged out. Another example, in our of our games, we had a player lose initiative, and be forced to move a light mech, however, anywhere he moved, he would end up being backshot, so instead, he moved one forward, turned one right, and then one forward, and then one right.... for his full movement, ending one hex behind where he started, but having passed through 5 hexes for a mod of +3, and still facing his opponents, so, no back shot........ which resulted in a 40 minute discussion over whether it was the overall number of hexes from your starting hex, that you moved, or the number of hexes you passed through, or into, that denoted the movement modifier..... as one player argued that this was little more than spinning in place, while others noted that he did move through 5 hexes of terrain. And that whole argument really goes back to the initiative roll.

Initiative is also the reason that players will keep totally devastated units on the field, to use as initiative sinks..... or  do everything they can to avoid following forced withdrawal, to get as much initiative sink as possible..... my locust may only have one arm, and no weapons, but by god, it can wiggle, and until you finish it off, I can count it in the initiative, as an initiative sink.

I think that any discussion of tactics, of any type, needs to start with how much of the game is affected by the initiative roll, and then look at ways to implement tactics.

Nahuris

[glitterboy2098]

to sum up the various discussions so far..

how to use swarm tactics without being  jerk.

1 ) keep the swarms small. a lance or two of swarming units will usually be ok if mixed in with a number of larger units as well.

2 ) try not to out number the enemy by too much, to avoid issues with init.

3 ) use tactics that are smart, but not trollish.

4 ) tell your opponent your going to be bringing a swarm. this lets him adjust his own force to counter.

5 ) allow your opponent to help select the terrain. make sure the terrain isn't too friendly to the swarming units.

[Col.Hengist]

I like inniative. It represents the chaos if battle. What would be the alternative?

[Nahuris]

I like inniative. It represents the chaos if battle. What would be the alternative?

I already posted one alternative, and I have used it, and it works. There is also individual initiative, where each player rolls their own initiative, and you move in ascending order ... 2's first, than 3, and so on ---- that tends to make players focus on helping each other out more, as people on the same side HAVE to work together ---- but yeah, there are alternatives.

Nahuris

[TigerShark]

I already posted one alternative, and I have used it, and it works. There is also individual initiative, where each player rolls their own initiative, and you move in ascending order ... 2's first, than 3, and so on ---- that tends to make players focus on helping each other out more, as people on the same side HAVE to work together ---- but yeah, there are alternatives.

Nahuris

Doesn't really solve the issue of swarms, however. (Sim. Movement)

- Faster units can calculate how far a Heavy-Assault formation can move and just take advantage. The Heavies are helpless to do anything but derp around, circle the wagons and wait for their opponent to get within range.

- How would you plan to move within range brackets i.e.: keep your opponent at Medium with your Gauss Rifle while he's at Long with his PPC)? Would be very difficult to utilize long-range weaponry with minimum ranges unless, by happenstance, your target happened to meander out of the zone.

- How do you resolve displacement? i.e.: both sides planning movement in the same hex. One side would need "priority" at some point.

Seems to favor the swarms more than mitigate their effect. Also seems extremely chaotic and less strategic.

[Nahuris]

Displacement was based on piloting with margin of success or failure --- and early on, people learned that letting bigger people get close tended to mean you got kicked. Really, it is no different than playing on a computer, either in first person, or similar to Mech Commander

Once players get used to it, there are some strong advantages, as players focus more on their plans, than they do trying to find the best place to get a back shot, without getting back shot in return....

You learn to predict your movement a turn or two ahead, and work with the flow of the battle, rather than just trying to maximize your advantage over one turn. Fast units still can roam, and you can still box them in, as they have to consider ranges and arcs to places you might be. But most units really don't move all that far in a game --- yes, Jumping is very fluid, but most mechs walk or run --- and you can look at the terrain and plan from that. It's no longer about hoping for the lucky die roll to give you an advantage, as it is about using the terrain and movement to improve your position, while still moving the plan forward.

Just as a real mechwarrior doesn't have time to deliberate where he/she is going to move during a battle.... you remove that from the table --- it becomes more of moving for an advantageous position, over moving in reaction to someone else, based on a die. It also deals with the swarm game, because of the way that initiative works, I can actually use things like Savannah Masters on my movement, having lost initiative, to pin your mech in place to get shots at zero movement mod ---- where as without that, all movement, like all fire, is simultaneous --- so even if I surround the hex, you were considered moving while I was closing, so were not pinned. Now, you do have to consider things like physicals,  charges - or DFA.... and for that, you declare it during the movement, and then during movement, when everyone reveals their noted movement, you move that particular mech after the target, by the most direct route. And if you don't reach, then it is no different than if they had moved away during the normal movement --- plus, unlike actual combat, you are not standing there waiting to see what the other guy is going to do, so that you can then plan what you are going to do, changing the plan, if you realize that what you had already planned would not work. Face it, in real combat, you would not have time to wait and see if the other person is going to be where you want him to be, not in 10 seconds with simultaneous movement. If battles went the way we play them, then it would be more arguing over the radio, than actual shooting ---

Nahuris

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

I have seen a card style initiative where if your color card comes up you move a unit. It looks interesting to try.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

One thing that I've done is to assign unit clusters for initiative purposes.

For example, if I've got a game consisting of the following forces:
Wolfhound
Spider
Centurion
Hatchetman
Marauder
Zeus

vs

Uller
Black Hawk
Ryoken
Vulture
Thor

I'd have two of the IS mechs (probably the Wolfhound and Spider, since they're the fastest) to the same initiative slot- for initiative purposes they count as one unit and must be moved together.  For small groups, it works better than frontloading or rearloading init.

[Col.Hengist]

I already posted one alternative, and I have used it, and it works. There is also individual initiative, where each player rolls their own initiative, and you move in ascending order ... 2's first, than 3, and so on ---- that tends to make players focus on helping each other out more, as people on the same side HAVE to work together ---- but yeah, there are alternatives.

Nahuris

 We do that in our games already.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  As far as validity, yes swarm tactics are permitted but I consider them as extreme and unrealistic. I usually cap numbers of one unit type as huge numbers of a single unit type are highly unlikely and cheesy. When a player refuses to fight such a force, I have no problem with it.
  I have players in my group who love to experiment with extremes of cheese and sometimes the fights are hilarious but in serious scenarios, I discourage the practice.

[Nahuris]

We do that in our games already.

Actually, what we have been doing is creating a fixed rotation for each side, and then rolling initiative for the side, and alternating, with each side moving in the same order ---- this is every player rolling his own personal initiative for his units, each turn ---- I have also seen it where people roll initiative for each mech, with vehicles in pairs --- or singly, depending on numbers.... basically rolling a set of dice and placing one on each sheet, and then having the units move, based on the individual number that they get.

One other way that I have seen is to put a Viking Rune on the top of each mech or unit sheet, and then pull the runestones out of a bag, and move in the order that they are drawn .....

Done correctly, any of these methods can work, and are no slower than any other...... and altering the initiative can really help with swarms. Another method that I have used is allowing a unit with higher initiative to pass through a hex occupied by an opponent unit, since all movement is simultaneous, and that unit, by winning initiative would have been in motion at the same time the units surrounding it were --- and so, their failed initiative means that they just didn't manage to block the unit, before it left.

The biggest issue with Swarm style play is that even when a side loses initiative, they can use their speed, and a technicality in the rules, to surround the unit that beat them in initiative, and deny it movement, and target mods, for a round.

Nahuris

[TigerShark]

Swarm tactics aren't extreme or unrealistic. They're the basis of Clan vs. IS play. They describe the Periphery campaign in both Reunification Wars, with militias and infantry swarming SLDF units with unconventional weapons. Heck, one scenario called the Scorpions' nest is a testbed against new 'Mechs, where they face off against a company of Scorpion Light Tanks. If anything, a single Lance being deployed to take an entire planet is less realistic than deploying a full, combined-arms force or 12 Locusts.

I feel players should be able to use any units they want and still play a fair game against their opponent. Having to construct a carefully-tailored or dumbed-down army so that your opponent doesn't get beaten up shouldn't be a core part of the game. And right now, it is.

[jackpot4]

Everyone seems to be so terrified to sacrifice any of their pieces.  You will lose units, that is how combat works.  You have to know how to advance and at the same time deter your opponent from trying to break your line.  initiative, when won or lost can be used against the opponent.  Area denial, surprise moves, flanking maneuvers etc. Etc.

this does not change my perspective I previously stated against swarming.

[Colt Ward]

I think we are getting two different definitions of swarming . . .

One is outnumbering the foe- by what, maybe at least 25% more units?

Another is using many of a specific unit to outnumber the foe though perhaps with a couple of other units- as an example two companies of Savannah Masters supporting a lance of fire support mechs against two lances of mechs . . . and on a open field to boot.

[Nahuris]

The first time I ever dealt with swarms was about 1995, or so,.... I was asked to play some Clan mechs against an IS opponent. So, I put together 2 Stars of Clan Omnis, as I was told the guy liked to field a company of mechs, with 180 tons of vehicle support. We were sort of balanced by tonnage, and fair play, as BV was in it's infancy, and that was what we had --- so, per the accepted wisdom, I gave my opponent a 35% tonnage bonus... building a Clan force at 65% of the tonnage or my Inner Sphere opponent. One Star was commanded by a Daishi, and the other, by a Mad Cat ---- the rest were a mix with a Loki, a Vulture, a Ryoken, a Dragonfly, a Nova, a Puma, an Uller, and a Koshi.

I showed up at the table, and found that the 180 tons of vehicles was 36 Savannah Masters ---
Now, I had agreed to the game, so I made the best of it, and for the first couple of turns, we closed using hills and trees as cover, and then on turn 3, we were close enough that he was able to rush 6 of his Savannah Masters out and surround my Daishi --- which hadn't moved yet, because I had won initiative that round --- and during the fire phase I killed 4 of them, but took the combined fire of the 8 mechs he got in range, on that Daishi ---- breaking Zell, but also having to deal with that level of combined fire

Next round, I lost initiative, and insisted on moving the Daishi first, to get to a low hill, where I could fire ---- at which point, because he had to move more than one unit to keep initiative fair, 6 Savannah Masters raced out, and surrounded the Mad Cat... which died during the fire phase, due to combined fire from 9 mechs, while the Daishi was crippled by the 3 remaining mechs due to having been so heavily punished the first turn of fire.... it was to die the next round to a third and fourth engine crit when I took an ammo crit in a side torso... already having one in the center, and one in the other torso.  Meanwhile, my surrounded Vulture died that round. At this point, I was combining fire, and had taken down an Awesome, and a Trebuchet..... but realized that I was now having to choose whether to try and kill the Savannah Masters, or target mechs, and that regardless of what I did, it was now a battle of attrition, that no Clan unit can win.......

The thing is, losing initiative makes this tactic even more effective ---- my opponent even crowed when he would lose initiative, because he got to "stick one of my mechs, before I could even move" ----

That is the swarm tactic that people are against, and that many people here are talking about, and why initiative is a part of the issue. This tactic, if the terrain is good, and supports it, allows someone to use LOSING initiative as an advantage, while winning initiative only lets an opponent have one move, before it gets used, anyways.  The thing is, this isn't a tactic --- it's using the initiative system, and a technicality of the rules, to metagame a victory over an opponent.
And while I joined the extensive list of players that refused to play him ever again..... that doesn't solve the issue, as it only pushes people like him to get their fix by beating new players, and making them turn against the game.... or, if he can't find opponents, he would show and either keep interrupting other players, or going on and on about how he OWNED you, and how afraid you were of his troops, shown by the fact that you wouldn't play him again. This lasted almost a year, before we got enough complaints together to get him banned from the store.... which I rather actually prefer, as I have seen too many stores willing to ban someone off of just a few complaints..... which may or may not be true.

The thing is, though, that this is a LEGAL play style in the game, that voids the whole game in favor of exploitation of some of the rules to create a means by which someone can get a victory, regardless of hard feelings. It's like playing a computer game, and fighting all the way to the end, only find that the code was written so that you get a message "Welcome to the end, we didn't expect anyone to make it, and you lose because we never planned on anyone winning, the goal was for you to keep pumping quarters, instead"

That is what I would like to find a way to fix.

Nahuris

[Go For The Throat]

For me, the initiative system has always been problematic, as it stands, anyways. In many ways, it forces people to play with heavier units, as lighter faster units, because light fast units end up being a game of chase the initiative loser. In the majority of games I have played.... which is somewhere in the thousands .... people with light units rush in when they win initiative to get that back shot, flank shot.....etc.... but when they lose, they run, or jump so as to make sure that their opponent can't. That means that their entire tactic with that fast unit has nothing to do with the battlefield, but instead, is all about maximizing / minimizing the effect of a random die roll. And before people argue about it ---- there are people who have posted here that they use fast units this way, where losing initiative means jumping away into cover, or getting away from the opponent to avoid combat without the advantage of position, from initiative. This also means that due to the vagaries of random die rolls, it is possible for one side to lose more rounds of initiative, than they win...... and each round of lost initiative, pretty much, destroys the chance of winning......

While I understand where you are coming from, I have to ask what you expect the Fast Light player to do? Having been on both sides of the issue I understand how frustrating it can be, but I am not going to keep a Light 'Mech out in the open in front of a Heavy/Assault 'Mech, and I think you would be hard pressed to find somebody that would.

to sum up the various discussions so far..

how to use swarm tactics without being  jerk.

1 ) keep the swarms small. a lance or two of swarming units will usually be ok if mixed in with a number of larger units as well.

2 ) try not to out number the enemy by too much, to avoid issues with init.

3 ) use tactics that are smart, but not trollish.

4 ) tell your opponent your going to be bringing a swarm. this lets him adjust his own force to counter.

5 ) allow your opponent to help select the terrain. make sure the terrain isn't too friendly to the swarming units.

1) That seems to be counter-intuitive, as the whole point of a swarm is to overwhelm your opponent with numbers. Though admittedly, numbers do need to be kept in check so they do not slow down the speed of play.

2) See response #1. There should never be issues with initiative regardless of numbers, unless it is the first time you are playing with the person/group, as there should already be something in place.

3) While there are definitely certain tactics with swarms that are unquestionably "troll", the difference can be hard to nail-down, and more often than not, even "legitimate" tactics will be considered "troll" by most players.

4) Why? It is not my fault if my opponent chose to take all anti-'Mech/Vehicle load-outs with their units when I am bringing lots of Infantry to the battle, nor is it my responsibility to inform them of their mistake.

5) No objections here, the terrain should remain as impartial as possible.

Swarm tactics aren't extreme or unrealistic. They're the basis of Clan vs. IS play. They describe the Periphery campaign in both Reunification Wars, with militias and infantry swarming SLDF units with unconventional weapons. Heck, one scenario called the Scorpions' nest is a testbed against new 'Mechs, where they face off against a company of Scorpion Light Tanks. If anything, a single Lance being deployed to take an entire planet is less realistic than deploying a full, combined-arms force or 12 Locusts.

I feel players should be able to use any units they want and still play a fair game against their opponent. Having to construct a carefully-tailored or dumbed-down army so that your opponent doesn't get beaten up shouldn't be a core part of the game. And right now, it is.

Everyone seems to be so terrified to sacrifice any of their pieces.  You will lose units, that is how combat works.  You have to know how to advance and at the same time deter your opponent from trying to break your line.  initiative, when won or lost can be used against the opponent.  Area denial, surprise moves, flanking maneuvers etc. Etc.

this does not change my perspective I previously stated against swarming.

This, on both accounts!

[Nahuris]

I favor light mechs ---- and I rather like Pack Rats and other fast scout units ---- I'm a big fan of the old television series, Rat Patrol....LOL
I don't expect a light unit to try and slug it out --- it's the running completely away, and taking yourself out of any useful ability to your side, and only trying to be useful, on turns that you win initiative ---- I look for cover, and I plan my movement, ahead of time, so that I can maximize my cover and terrain advantages, while still contributing to my side --- if my opponent dispatches a unit, just to intercept, or guard against me, even if they never engage... then I have done something.
I don't like the totally jump away, so that you can't shoot me, because I am forced to move first, method.... there is always something you can do to either give your side an advantage, or take away an opponent's advantage.

And I can give another example --- in a game last year, against Col. Hengist. I was given the job of putting together a light militia unit with "technicals" to support a mech unit defending an installation. And while our installation made the decision to divest itself of defenders and take a walk on the map, I had put together a force that had matched the guidelines I was given. (At the start of the game, the installation went from being defended, to being placed in the center of the map, and the defenders had to race the attackers to their own facility.)

My force consisted of 3 flatbed trucks, with LRM20's, and old battered Shrek, 4 Scorpions, 5 "Avengers" - small 5 ton vehicles based on the Humvee Avenger, with two rocket10's and an ER Small Laser - 3 small light vehicles with a Light PPC each, 2 flatbeds, each carrying 2 LB2X's and 2 machine guns (based on 1960's Soviet anti air trucks), 2 squads of basic Inner Sphere Battle Armor and two tracked vehicles, fitted with a Thunderbolt 15 in a fixed forward mount. The Avengers and the small light tanks with the Light PPC's were the only fusion equipped units on my side --- the rest were all ICE vehicles. And this was in support of a unit consisting of approximately 4 lances of mostly medium mechs, with some heavies, and a few lights, but no assaults. We faced an opposition that fielded 4 Lances of mechs, with a lance of assaults, one lance of mediums, 2 lights, and the remaining 6, heavies. Plus 2 Karnov's with approximately 6 squads of the heavy Ravager Battle Armor.

Now, yes, I did swarm some --- I sent the Avengers out to harass a Stalker, but the difference is I kept them out of kick range..... and never tried to play blocker with them --- for one thing, my guys wanted to come home.... not be uses as sacrificial crash dummies. However, with 2 of them managing to get in back shots, and tear up most of the rear armor on that Stalker --- the player had to hold it back to avoid getting further backshots..... the rest of the rockets got spent on other units, as they rushed up some heavies to deal... and one of the Avengers was horribly destroyed by the Stalkers full Laser battery.  The remaining 4 would continue doing little slashing attacks with their ER Small Lasers, but making that Stalker cautious was more than I had hoped for.......

The rest of my units basically played area denial, and would pack rush anyone that tried to circle around one side of the objective ---- and fortunately, my opponents didn't do a concerted rush, because while I had a lot of units, most of them were "technicals" as in, only carrying a couple of tons of armor, if any, welded on...... and any hit over 4 damage would have spelled disaster for some of them .... the LBX trucks come to mind... they had one ton of armor each..... 4 up front, 3 on each side, 2 rear, and 4 on the "turret".

In the end, the game was a lot of fun for most of the people ---- although I could not figure out my sides desperation to die at the hands of the Ravagers .... they kept marching mechs, one by one, at a walk, up to one hex from the Battle Armor, and then would just stay there, trying to outshoot the battle armor..... made me so glad that once my ammo was running low, that my units were allowed to start running for the edge.

Nahuris

[GreekFire]

1) That seems to be counter-intuitive, as the whole point of a swarm is to overwhelm your opponent with numbers. Though admittedly, numbers do need to be kept in check so they do not slow down the speed of play.

3) While there are definitely certain tactics with swarms that are unquestionably "troll", the difference can be hard to nail-down, and more often than not, even "legitimate" tactics will be considered "troll" by most players.

4) Why? It is not my fault if my opponent chose to take all anti-'Mech/Vehicle load-outs with their units when I am bringing lots of Infantry to the battle, nor is it my responsibility to inform them of their mistake.

I'm guessing his post was an extension of the OP, so "how do you effectively use swarm type units and tactics without becoming someone that everyone refuses to play against?" Yeah, you can field swarms without letting the other player know. You can also field massed cheap artillery with superfast spotters, or jumping pulseboats, or VTOL/aerospace bombers...but at the end of the day it might leave a sour taste in the mouths of certain players.

If your gaming group is completely OK with everyone bringing blind forces and duking it out no matter what happens, that's great! But I'm sure I'm not the only one with a only group where every player is equipped with at least has a few of the right tools for the job. It helps make everyone feel like they have (or had) a chance no matter what goes down, and in our experience makes for funner games.

[mike19k]

One of the things that I see with the Swarm Tactic is that it does not fit well with the fluff. For example when Justin Allard was fighting Gray Noton, they did not believe that he was fighting a rifleman as it should have made short work of him, also if I remember from the book Justin was worried that if he was not able to delay it and keep his training company away that one heavy mech could take out the company. Now the company was mostly Stingers, with a single Spider if I remember correctly. But on the game board ten or so stingers would own one rifleman, even if the rifleman was 0/0 and the stingers were 5/6. There is also the fluff about the Kurita commander who was preaching the swarm tactic of the light mech, tried it and got tore up by the medium/heavy of the Davion. A second thing that I have seen is some of the time people who play the Swarm Tactic use the cheaper BV units and then bump up there skill to a level that you would not expect to find "in real life" so I have a +3 or 4 for you to hit me with your 3/4 pilot and yet also have most of my crew at 1/2 skill.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

For a company of 5/6 Stingers to win against Legend Killer (even if it was a standard Rifleman and not a Rifleman II with the Lostech weapons and double heatsinks removed), they'd need to resort to suicidal tactics that no training company could ever do without someone fanatical driving them.

[mike19k]

For a company of 5/6 Stingers to win against Legend Killer (even if it was a standard Rifleman and not a Rifleman II with the Lostech weapons and double heatsinks removed), they'd need to resort to suicidal tactics that no training company could ever do without someone fanatical driving them.

And yet when I have tried it on MegaMek, they win every time.

[Acolyte]

I already posted one alternative, and I have used it, and it works. There is also individual initiative, where each player rolls their own initiative, and you move in ascending order ... 2's first, than 3, and so on ---- that tends to make players focus on helping each other out more, as people on the same side HAVE to work together ---- but yeah, there are alternatives.

Nahuris

Individual initiative works just fine, particularly if you have a GM of Ref for the game keeping track of the init. This way no one knows who's going next until they do (OK, except the GM or REF that is).

   - Shane

[GreekFire]

And yet when I have tried it on MegaMek, they win every time.

I don't think he's talking about the odds of winning on the tabletop so much as the in-universe problems surrounding throwing a bunch of super-green trainies against an experienced Rifleman Pilot. Expecting them to coordinate well and hold the line after Stinger number one gets torn apart by the overwhelming firepower of the Rifleman (at least, in the eyes of the new pilot) might be a bit much.

It's like a scenario with one person with a gun versus five unarmed people. Sure, the unarmed individuals could take down the gunman if they coordinate and rush him, but chances are at least one of them is going to get shot. And few untrained people would be willing to try those odds.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Exactly that.  To really make the scenario accurate to the novels, the Stingers need to have very severe Moral penalties, Forced Withdrawl (it is, after all, prior to the 4th Succession War), and rules preventing them from voluntarily moving within somewhere between three and five hexes from Legend Killer.  They're not going to bum rush a Rifleman that suddenly appears, they're going to panic and flee while it cuts them to pieces.