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BattleTech Game Universe => The Periphery => Topic started by: marcussmythe on 31 July 2013, 08:11:41

Title: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: marcussmythe on 31 July 2013, 08:11:41
Are there ever detailed, or hinted at, any large/powerful 'deep periphery' powers, other than the Clans?

We know that if you take 6 million people and 300 years, and remember to engage in local thermonuclear war on at least an occasion or two, you can build a group capable of invading and nearly conquering the I.S.  Given that, is there any inkling of other major powers out in the deep periphery?

If not, do we have any indication as to why?
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: jeyar on 31 July 2013, 09:33:31
Does the Rim Worlds count? I mean every Lyrian/Clan/periphery sourcebook it turns out they were bigger and made more goodies for others to pick up than we ever thought of before - by now their territory (but not population) must have exceeded that of about half the IS... :D
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Biggles Antilles on 31 July 2013, 09:45:17
I think if you start delving into the whys and hows of the Periphery you'll go mad they really wax and wane in accordance with the story, and the story for the most part is the Inner Sphere. The Taurians represent the biggest but as far as canon goes I don't know of another great big fish floating out there in the blue.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Moonsword on 31 July 2013, 16:51:13
Are there ever detailed, or hinted at, any large/powerful 'deep periphery' powers, other than the Clans?

Not really, no.  There are some vague hints that the Rim Worlds was more extensive than we knew but the RWR is dead.  The closest thing to a major power out in the Deep Periphery is the Imperio and they're not far removed from the Clans.  Whether the Homeworld Clans are going to leave them alive is an unresolved question at this time.

We know that if you take 6 million people and 300 years, and remember to engage in local thermonuclear war on at least an occasion or two, you can build a group capable of invading and nearly conquering the I.S.  Given that, is there any inkling of other major powers out in the deep periphery?

You're forgetting that vast amounts of war materiel, naval firepower, mobile shipyards, cutting-edge Hegemony research, and other things that set the Clans apart.  The Exodus was a singular event in the setting's history.  They are very much the exception and the Clans were driven by the needs of the story.  If you want to see a more typical Periphery success story, look up the Hanseatic League.

If not, do we have any indication as to why?

The story is focused on the Inner Sphere.  The Deep Periphery is a distraction and a sideshow to the main action.

I think if you start delving into the whys and hows of the Periphery you'll go mad they really wax and wane in accordance with the story, and the story for the most part is the Inner Sphere. The Taurians represent the biggest but as far as canon goes I don't know of another great big fish floating out there in the blue.

Mostly accurate but these days the big fish in the Periphery is the Magistracy of Canopus.  Arguably, the Raven Alliance is the winner of that prize, but they're not precisely a Periphery power anymore in a lot of ways.

The Taurian Concordat was devastated by the events leading into and during the Jihad era.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: marcussmythe on 31 July 2013, 21:53:44
Not really, no.  There are some vague hints that the Rim Worlds was more extensive than we knew but the RWR is dead.  The closest thing to a major power out in the Deep Periphery is the Imperio and they're not far removed from the Clans.  Whether the Homeworld Clans are going to leave them alive is an unresolved question at this time.

You're forgetting that vast amounts of war materiel, naval firepower, mobile shipyards, cutting-edge Hegemony research, and other things that set the Clans apart.  The Exodus was a singular event in the setting's history.  They are very much the exception and the Clans were driven by the needs of the story.  If you want to see a more typical Periphery success story, look up the Hanseatic League.

The story is focused on the Inner Sphere.  The Deep Periphery is a distraction and a sideshow to the main action.

Mostly accurate but these days the big fish in the Periphery is the Magistracy of Canopus.  Arguably, the Raven Alliance is the winner of that prize, but they're not precisely a Periphery power anymore in a lot of ways.

The Taurian Concordat was devastated by the events leading into and during the Jihad era.

1.)  The Clans:  While certainly having a leg up on military technology, I dont see it providing a huge overall advantage over any other well-planned and well funded colony expedition.  Indeed, the mere fact that they managed to support such a huge military, while growing in economic and population terms, suggests that ideas such as 'maintenance' and 'tooth-to-tail' ratios are radically different in the BT universe.

2.)  In General:  Story concerns seem to dictate that nothing out there distract from the traditional focus of the game.  The closest thing weve seen to a non-IS focused 'major event' is the Wars of Reaving.. explained both by the popularity of the clans and its potential long-term effects on matters in the IS.  (I suppose we needed the clans distracted to explain why they didnt roll over a Jihad-distracted IS).  Also, it helps that the WoR was a very cool story.

3.)  Lacking organic contraindicators, I feel reasonably comfortable going ahead with my plans for some AU periphery factions for my local gaming group.  So long as the clans are treated as a rough 'upper bound' in military potential and growth for their starting population and time, it should be possible to cook up something that is interesting without straining the setting-inherit suspension of disbelief.

My thanks to everyone for their thoughts and comments!
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Korzon77 on 31 July 2013, 22:48:01
I think that there could be, but it won't ever be canonized. The clans were special in some respects but equally, before the Ameris coup, rich men could and did muster fleets of hundreds (or more) of jumpships and in at leat a few cases decided to found their own personal kingdoms.  It's not at all unlikely that a few were smarter and were successful.  Heck, we know it can be done, a'la the Tauran concordat which held off the SLDF with a fleet that was superior to most of hte actual house lords.  They lost, but they were certainly a "major power."

So why won't we ever see them?

1. Distance.  The Clans invaded for ideological, not pratical reasons and there's nothing the IS has that an advanced society couldn't make for itself. Sure, you may get the guy who wants genuine Tharkad snow globes, but he's not going to travel 1500 LY to get it. He may, at most mention he wants it to a trader who tells another trader, and 10 years later, some guy hears that thee's someone interested in this and started the process reversed, selling snow globes to at rader who is heading in that direction etc.

In other words, most practical contact would be much like Rome and China-- very indirect and with nobody really all that concerned bout who is on the other end.

2.  Practical matters. We have yet to have a sourcebook on the Tortuga pirates, Fitvelt groups, etc, etc, etc. We have yet to have any single time period so completely covered that people don't want anymore books. But if you add another major deep periphery group you have to have likely at the minimum a "house book" talking about them and thier enemies, a tech readout, some adventures, etc, etc, etc.  Some peopel will love it, but the ones who have been waiting for their IS sourcebook forever will neither like it, nor honestly have much use for it.

3.  Foreclosing creativity. This is a big one for me. The more you talk about these regions the harder it is for players to fit in their own creations. If we find out that beyond the OA there is a nation the size of the Draconis combine, it might make things ab it hard if you want to put your own people there. By not movnig out of the IS and near periphery, the writers give us, the players more of a free range for our own work.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: marcussmythe on 31 July 2013, 23:04:56
*nods*  And I suppose I had failed to see it in those terms.. the intent to offer opportunity for, rather than foreclosing, creativity.

Ive got several ideas for factions.. once I get them in a more developed state, I'll post them over on the fan boards.  Thanks again!
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: DarthRads on 01 August 2013, 02:37:56
I think that there could be, but it won't ever be canonized. The clans were special in some respects but equally, before the Ameris coup, rich men could and did muster fleets of hundreds (or more) of jumpships and in at leat a few cases decided to found their own personal kingdoms.  It's not at all unlikely that a few were smarter and were successful.  Heck, we know it can be done, a'la the Tauran concordat which held off the SLDF with a fleet that was superior to most of hte actual house lords.  They lost, but they were certainly a "major power."

So why won't we ever see them?

1. Distance.  The Clans invaded for ideological, not pratical reasons and there's nothing the IS has that an advanced society couldn't make for itself. Sure, you may get the guy who wants genuine Tharkad snow globes, but he's not going to travel 1500 LY to get it. He may, at most mention he wants it to a trader who tells another trader, and 10 years later, some guy hears that thee's someone interested in this and started the process reversed, selling snow globes to at rader who is heading in that direction etc.

In other words, most practical contact would be much like Rome and China-- very indirect and with nobody really all that concerned bout who is on the other end.

2.  Practical matters. We have yet to have a sourcebook on the Tortuga pirates, Fitvelt groups, etc, etc, etc. We have yet to have any single time period so completely covered that people don't want anymore books. But if you add another major deep periphery group you have to have likely at the minimum a "house book" talking about them and thier enemies, a tech readout, some adventures, etc, etc, etc.  Some peopel will love it, but the ones who have been waiting for their IS sourcebook forever will neither like it, nor honestly have much use for it.

3.  Foreclosing creativity. This is a big one for me. The more you talk about these regions the harder it is for players to fit in their own creations. If we find out that beyond the OA there is a nation the size of the Draconis combine, it might make things ab it hard if you want to put your own people there. By not movnig out of the IS and near periphery, the writers give us, the players more of a free range for our own work.

Point 3 is a particularly good...point? That seems redundant! Anyway, the DP is where you can let your own imagination run wild...
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Biggles Antilles on 01 August 2013, 06:08:12
The Taurian Concordat was devastated by the events leading into and during the Jihad era.

 :(

I REALLY NEED NEW SOURCEBOOKS!
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: foxbat on 03 August 2013, 08:16:43
:(

I REALLY NEED NEW SOURCEBOOKS!

You should find your info in the following sources : Leading to the Jihad (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_35_77&products_id=1372),and  during the Jihad (http://bg.battletech.com/?page_id=498)

Some of the books may be out of print now in DTF, but you'll always be able to grab PDFs.  ;)



Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Biggles Antilles on 03 August 2013, 08:43:31
You should find your info in the following sources : Leading to the Jihad (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_35_77&products_id=1372),and  during the Jihad (http://bg.battletech.com/?page_id=498)

Some of the books may be out of print now in DTF, but you'll always be able to grab PDFs.  ;)

Best news I've had in ages!  O0
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Batman on 03 August 2013, 13:35:20
No one is conquering the Inner Sphere. The Clans still have a ways to go on that, but there are some House-sized powers in the Preiphery. For Outer Sphere powers you got the Magistracy of Canopus, Taurian Concordat, and Marian Hegemony. Further out are the Hanseatic League, Nueva Castille, and the Umayyad Caliphate. The Hanseatic League is probably the only faction of significance out in the depths of space, but distance keeps them far out of most conflicts, and they wouldn't have the strength to conquer any of the Outer Sphere nations, let alone one of the Houses.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 August 2013, 03:16:33
Actually Batman you are a bit behind . . . Castile and the Caliphate no longer exist.  Both had a visit by Scorpions and their absorbed Hellion henchmen . . .

Now the Imperio is trying to pull their tech up by the bootstraps while looking over their shoulder into the deep black.  Forces run the gamut from Clan Omnis to early WoB & SL gear to Retro construction.  Though playing that invasion could be fun . . . every piece of Clan gear destroyed is something that will be years before it is replaced.  Would that desperation lead the touman to put aside dueling in a effort to blitz the defenders?
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Wrayth on 17 August 2013, 04:13:00
:(

I REALLY NEED NEW SOURCEBOOKS!

Synopsis (as best as I can remember): WoB plunges an asteroid into Taurus.  Taurians think it's the Davions (because they always think it's the Davions) and attack the Federated Suns.  Planets are contested by both sides.  Taurians use their own nukes and a WarShip provided by the WoB.  Mercs employed by the Suns retaliate.

By the end of the Jihad, the Concordat is in possession of some Davion worlds, and the Suns are in possession of some Taurian worlds.  Now that the Federated Suns isn't fighting for its life against the Word of Blake, they finally have a chance to deal with their aggressive southern neighbor and attack in force.  Much of the Concordat is either conquered or trashed.  The breakaway Calderon Protectorate brokers a peace treaty between the two which fixes the borders in their current state.  The Taurian WarShip is turned over to the Protectorate.  The Taurian leader focuses efforts on rebuilding the military instead of rebuilding shattered worlds, which, ironically, makes the military recovery extremely slow.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Aldous on 17 August 2013, 08:32:17
So what Taurian Planets were ceded to FedScums? Which planets did Taurians get?
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: rebs on 17 August 2013, 09:40:15
Taureans lost lots of border worlds. Pretty much all those worlds spinward of the Hyades bunched along their old border are now Davion planets.   

But they retook the Pleiades Cluster, which they had lost to the wretched Davions in the Reunification War centuries ago.  Problem is, the people of the Pleiades see themselves more as Fed Suns citizens than former Taureans.  So it's not really going all that great for them. 

The Calderon Protectorate, as small as it is, is where the original spirit of this faction is.  The rest is a war-torn mess.     
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Wrayth on 17 August 2013, 12:12:03
The Calderon Protectorate, as small as it is, is where the original spirit of this faction is.  The rest is a war-torn mess.     

To put "war-torn mess" in perspective, the military factories on Perdition and Taurus itself were trashed.

EDIT:  Actually, I just checked the map again, and Perdition is now in Davion hands.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 23 August 2013, 09:47:45
Well the Canopians may have something hidden beyond their borders. Even IE Expeditions don't seem so sure what's out there. Having said that, there is plenty of empty space in the area between the Canopians and the Hansa for more major states. However, I doubt we'll ever see anything else, at least for the time being.

Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: BrokenMnemonic on 24 August 2013, 02:32:00
Unless IE are deliberately covering up the existence of a state for some reason...
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 24 August 2013, 09:11:46
True. Then IE would essentially take Comstar's role if it starts to keep hidden information  }:)
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: rebs on 24 August 2013, 16:20:12
I imagine the anti-spinward reaches coreward toward and past Hansa space as buzzing with activity, we just can't see it.   The Aquila Rift is described like Kerensky's Veil times ten. 

The Green Ghosts have to be coming from somewhere around there, though more coreward.  Probably as deep or deeper than the Hansa.  Just my guess.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Prince of Darkness on 25 August 2013, 12:43:12
I imagine the anti-spinward reaches coreward toward and past Hansa space as buzzing with activity, we just can't see it.   The Aquila Rift is described like Kerensky's Veil times ten. 

The Green Ghosts have to be coming from somewhere around there, though more coreward.  Probably as deep or deeper than the Hansa.  Just my guess.

Well, space is big.  It wouldn't be wrong to say they're based in a system they just didn't notice, like the one Word guy who said the Suns already found their "hidden" world.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Red Pins on 25 August 2013, 19:07:22
...I guess I'm a biased, but I love the idea of more factions.  The big, empty-seeming space at the bottom of the maps past the MoC and TC/CP just gives me an itch, since its where I put my own AU groups, but apparently Herb the BT-line dev is intent on reducing the number of factions to something more managable.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 24 September 2013, 09:23:15
Well, space is big.  It wouldn't be wrong to say they're based in a system they just didn't notice, like the one Word guy who said the Suns already found their "hidden" world.

Well, probably the Green Ghosts come from the 'silent' part of the RWR, which is very close to the present Lyran border. having said that, there was speculation in the past that even the Hansa planets might have had an RWR connection, which is not that far fetched, given that a bunch of exiles from the Lyran Commonwealth decided to call it home. My guess is that they knew where they were going.

Frankly, in this part of space, there may be more to discover. The IE maps indicate that they have extensively reconned the borders of the Aquila rift, which is essentially bordered by Hansa (or closeby like outpost 27) territories, and now on the other side, the Axumite Providence. Thus they must have barely scratched the area behind the Rift proper, even if they have deep range colonies in that direction.

BTW I don't discount that IE is keeping hidden information in this and other areas
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: verybad on 23 November 2013, 20:57:02
Well the Canopians may have something hidden beyond their borders. Even IE Expeditions don't seem so sure what's out there. Having said that, there is plenty of empty space in the area between the Canopians and the Hansa for more major states. However, I doubt we'll ever see anything else, at least for the time being.

Canopus' south side is where Shadowrun and Battletech will join. They've got Trolls, Elves, Sorcerers, and Dragons. Just need to import some Ninjas from the DC and they'll be ready.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 27 November 2013, 10:13:02
Well, space is big.  It wouldn't be wrong to say they're based in a system they just didn't notice, like the one Word guy who said the Suns already found their "hidden" world.

If the Suns had already found their "hidden" world, they wouldn't be fielding barebones Mech battalions after the Jihad
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Red Pins on 27 November 2013, 13:58:46
I'm sure there are other reasons besides that.  Something about replacing the massive losses after the civil war and Jihad?


I wonder why there hasn't been a coordinated effort written about in the fluff, did it just happen in the DA and it was taken for granted?
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Amaris Fan Club on 27 November 2013, 18:04:03
The deep periphery is filled with Lyran traders who will go 2,000 light years to make a kroner,
and Hansa who will follow them home to get it back.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 28 November 2013, 09:02:58
I'm sure there are other reasons besides that.  Something about replacing the massive losses after the civil war and Jihad?


I wonder why there hasn't been a coordinated effort written about in the fluff, did it just happen in the DA and it was taken for granted?

Nah, even the massive losses of the civil war and Jihad would be easily replaced if the AFFS had Taussen. It was said to have an output greater than any other Suns world(trumping New Avalon or Kathil!) so that's gotta be Hesperus II or near Terra-like levels, so the post Blackout AFFS would've been fielding all-RCT forces instead of those poor LCTs that keep getting whipped. The abundance of Blakist designs produced by that world would also be a big screamer to the Suns' neighbours.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Archangel on 29 November 2013, 05:59:22
If the Suns had already found their "hidden" world, they wouldn't be fielding barebones Mech battalions after the Jihad

Not necessarily.  After all we don't know for sure the nature of their "hidden" world.  It is suspected of being the location of a Mech production facility but that could be Blakist misinformation.

Nah, even the massive losses of the civil war and Jihad would be easily replaced if the AFFS had Taussen. It was said to have an output greater than any other Suns world(trumping New Avalon or Kathil!) so that's gotta be Hesperus II or near Terra-like levels, so the post Blackout AFFS would've been fielding all-RCT forces instead of those poor LCTs that keep getting whipped. The abundance of Blakist designs produced by that world would also be a big screamer to the Suns' neighbours.

Not really.  By the end of the Jihad, the AFFS was not only running out of Mechs but MechWarriors as well.  Besides combat losses, at the end of the Jihad a good percentage of the MechWarriors still serving were walking wounded (whether physical or mental injuries) or had their tours extended multiple times.  Only the war, the state's desperate need for soldiers and, for some, their sense of loyalty and duty (or revenge) kept them in uniform.  Even with the alleged manufacturing facilities on Taussen it would take years, if not decades before the AFFS was able to replace all those MechWarriors.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 29 November 2013, 11:30:01
I refer you to my "post-Blackout" statement.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Wrangler on 29 November 2013, 12:34:11
I think there going be a time where the definition of "Inner Sphere" needs to be stated.

When the original Free Worlds League broke up, entire reach of space within that stretch of space becomes Periphery.  Why?  No central authority?  No strong government?  No significate military?   What heck was Chaos March?  Inner Periphery?  Way things was going, that seems to be the way it falls if were fact it was surrounded by Inner Sphere nations trying to grab worlds half-heart-off-ly.

Raven Alliance dugged into the side of the Inner Sphere, you'd think they were part of the Inner Sphere.  I certainly would call them a Major Periphery power. Clan or not.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Adacas on 29 November 2013, 13:38:18
As for the Raven Alliance I disagree, State Os not, in any case Clan, but not periphery.
As for those in the Lyran Alliance or FWL  who were separated from their states are clearly peripheral worlds
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Red Pins on 29 November 2013, 15:26:22
IIRC, its a measurement of distance from terra.  Look on the maps, and you see a series of circles the further from the center of the map you go.  The Periphery starts about 500 LY from Terra, I think.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: verybad on 08 December 2013, 14:56:30
As for the Raven Alliance I disagree, State Os not, in any case Clan, but not periphery.
As for those in the Lyran Alliance or FWL  who were separated from their states are clearly peripheral worlds

Not really. The Raven Alliance is essentially 2 nations in one location with the Ravens holding the reins of power, but the Alliance folks being the basis for the economy, which in the long run, is always the true base of power.

The civilians in the Alliance are certainly NOT clan.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Wrangler on 08 December 2013, 16:19:03
Well, the Raven Alliance has grown and nibbled away at both the Federated Suns and the Draconis Combine.  What heck do they have to do be recognized as being part of the Inner Sphere?
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 09 December 2013, 08:49:36
The Taurians and Marians have likewise taken IS planets, but they're also still labelled as Periphery nations
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 22 December 2013, 02:07:04
Well as far as speculation goes, there may be another power out there beyond the Jarnvolk but most (like me) assume that they are speaking of the clans...
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Aleksandr on 24 December 2013, 20:12:33
The Periphery is more a regional designation than a status one. In regards to the former FWL, I'd consider the Rim Commonality a Periphery state, but not the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth. The Rim Commonality is not only regionally peripheral, but really had more interaction and concern with the other Periphery realms nearby (namely the Marians) than the rest of the Sphere.

Just because one isn't a house can't make it a periphery state - otherwise the Word of Blake Protectorate, St. Ives Compact and Free Rasalhague Republic are all Periphery states.  :D

That said, there is something to Periphery being an attitude, but to cross that threshold is pretty difficult. The Raven Alliance should still be considered Periphery, imo, since the Ravens are so insular and haven't absorbed or overtaken the Alliance's culture.

As is, I think the Inner Periphery might in store for a name change if the Deep Periphery becomes a bit more populated. The 'Outer Sphere' states wouldn't be much different than the Rasalhague Dominion or Regulan Fiefs - powerful states that post-date the Star League, and can't really be considered a Successor State.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Josva Valdreki on 26 December 2013, 00:47:12
Unless IE are deliberately covering up the existence of a state for some reason...

In IE's book, they pretty much stated that they actually are hiding (or trying to hide) at least two worlds: Farhome and… the one with the mutants. So I'd say that IE is almost certainly hiding more.

...I guess I'm a biased, but I love the idea of more factions.  The big, empty-seeming space at the bottom of the maps past the MoC and TC/CP just gives me an itch, since its where I put my own AU groups, but apparently Herb the BT-line dev is intent on reducing the number of factions to something more managable.

Basically this.

I look at a map of the Deep Periphery and I see all the blank spaces of the map and filling in those blank spaces begins to seem more important than keeping the peace on former Rasalhague and Republic worlds or protecting the Galatean League and the Remnant. I want to delve the ruins of ancient fortresses, to seek out new mutants and new civilizations… to boldly go where no MechWarrior has gone before (well, in living memory).

Makes me want to name a DropShip Galileo and refit a Frigate or a Light Cruiser for deep space exploration and name her Enterprise.

ETA: And Deep Periphery exploration makes me feel less silly about my 'Mechs having hands. Although I feel that battle armor might be more useful….
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 26 December 2013, 02:17:24
Maybe those spaces really are blank? It is a fact that the farther you go from Terra the less likely you'll find planets suitable for habitation
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Josva Valdreki on 26 December 2013, 10:32:19
They're clearly not, or any Deep Periphery adventure campaign would be pointless.

As made plain by the Jihad and IE, even the blank spaces in the Inner Sphere haven't entirely been filled in.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 27 December 2013, 12:08:00
That was due to the first 2 Succession Wars, but the Deep Periphery is different. Secret bases and caches, sure, but full-fledged space-faring nations? Very rare
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 27 December 2013, 13:54:48
That was due to the first 2 Succession Wars, but the Deep Periphery is different. Secret bases and caches, sure, but full-fledged space-faring nations? Very rare

Problem is, we don't actually know how far did periphery nations, the SLDF or random colonists actually ventured out in the dark. To be perfectly honest, I find it very hard that especially during the Star League, there weren't any more ventures out in the deep periphery.

Actually the farthest was Colombus and frankly I find that a bit suspicious given the location of where the SL Army settled after it went into exile.

However, a rather indirect indication of how far humanity went is the number of 'known' colonies we find in the IE book and especially astonishing, RWR bases popping up all over the place.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Josva Valdreki on 27 December 2013, 22:07:13
Yup.

There are RWR Outposts that have been uncovered thousands of lightyears from the Inner Sphere - Rimward, Spinward, and Anti-Spinward. (The Rimward Outposts being on the complete opposite side of the Inner Sphere from the furthest known extent of the RWR.)
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 28 December 2013, 02:24:45
Does anyone remember the celestial body that Comstar sent a ship to in the past in order to try the feasibility of very long range deep periphery travel? Was it somehow connected to Orion? Can't find the quote...
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Red Pins on 28 December 2013, 11:32:56
....I remember the mention of such a mission assigned to the explorer corps, but can't remember anything else about it, but iirc it was to a black hole somewhere.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Medron Pryde on 25 January 2014, 19:13:34
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Star League outposts went out something like 2,000 lightyears from Terra.

Actual physical Star League built structures to support actual Star League people.

And that we explored further out than that.

And then of course we know that Clan Wolverine is holding off the Alien menace somewhere to the south.  ;)  That's the real reason we haven't seen any deep periphery stuff out that way...hehehe
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: rebs on 25 January 2014, 19:33:09
Indeed, and first exodus parties disappearing, some to mechanical/technical failure, but that couldn't have been all of them or even most, I would hope.  :)   Then a second exodus after the TA fell, then people disgusted and fleeing Age of War IS, or Shiro Kurita.  And then the aforementioned Star League expansion/possible outposts, that IE couldn't have fully accounted for.

I think there's room for anything, and it was set up that way from the start.  Comstar's original handbook/reports were everything as far as they and their various "business" was concerned, so the POV is strong in its sphere of influence, no pun intended, but beyond that they had to have te Explorer Corps, and even that was mostly focused on limited areas of search, ie, Kerensky's trail.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 27 January 2014, 16:13:26
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Star League outposts went out something like 2,000 lightyears from Terra.

Actual physical Star League built structures to support actual Star League people.

Up to a point, it would explain why Kerensky went the way he went. Decent planets, hidden from view by a nebula and sufficiently distant not to be in easy contact with the IS. After all, Tanis (a SL colony) was only 2 jumps away from the 'promised land'.

BTW the area described (ie the 2000LY) would actually encompass the known universe at this point...

There is something else. It could be that there are a lot of planets in the deep periphery that are quite unremarkable - say agricultural colonies, with 18 century tech with a few hundred or thousand people. They would slip under the radar unless some big shot organization from the IS or clans decided to base themselves out of it.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 28 January 2014, 10:35:24
I think they did that 400 years ago. It's called Rim Worlds Outposts.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Hairbear541 on 06 June 2014, 17:37:41
Afternoon guys, It's been a while since I really went on a buying spree. I know I need to get all new sourcebooks,field reports and such. You keep mentioning  The Imperio quite a bit. Where can I find more information IT.
Thanks
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Deadborder on 06 June 2014, 19:09:57
The Wars of Reaving and Interstellar Players 3 have the sum total of all that's been written about Escorpion Imperio so far
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Archangel on 06 June 2014, 21:49:42
The Wars of Reaving and Interstellar Players 3 have the sum total of all that's been written about Escorpion Imperio so far

There is also a brief update in the Wars of Reaving Supplemental.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 24 July 2014, 13:50:18
Actually, wouldn't it be nice to have a powerful deep periphery power being 'discovered'? I know that the going axiom is that the further one is from Terra, the more one closer to a Neanderthal... but it would be nice that we are surprised by some power cropping up in the deep.

Or maybe one of the existing deep periphery factions somehow gaining enough strength to become a distant player in IS affairs?
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Archangel on 24 July 2014, 14:02:13
Actually, wouldn't it be nice to have a powerful deep periphery power being 'discovered'? I know that the going axiom is that the further one is from Terra, the more one closer to a Neanderthal... but it would be nice that we are surprised by some power cropping up in the deep.

Or maybe one of the existing deep periphery factions somehow gaining enough strength to become a distant player in IS affairs?

That would be the Clans.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 24 July 2014, 14:10:08
That would be the Clans.

Nah... that has grown old now...

What I mean is that a power that is not clan, clan affiliated or whatever.

Given the fact that the Clans are seemingly all over the place (especially in 3145) maybe its time to limit the usage of this particular deus ex machine all over the place in the BT universe.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: YingJanshi on 24 July 2014, 14:15:24
Actually, wouldn't it be nice to have a powerful deep periphery power being 'discovered'? I know that the going axiom is that the further one is from Terra, the more one closer to a Neanderthal... but it would be nice that we are surprised by some power cropping up in the deep.

Or maybe one of the existing deep periphery factions somehow gaining enough strength to become a distant player in IS affairs?

Isn't there a big one (ish) out anti-spindward way that's described in ISP3?
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Wrangler on 24 July 2014, 15:11:31
Isn't there a big one (ish) out anti-spindward way that's described in ISP3?

I wish there really was a large couple deep periphery powers out there, it  would freshen things up a bit.
Ones may not have BattleMechs, but something else. Maybe like Bolo style machines, Mobile Structures without sluggishness of what technology we current have.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Korzon77 on 25 July 2014, 00:12:13
While rare, there's no reason in universe why there couldn't be-- by the Age of War colonization was more or less old hat, so you were unlikely to make the stupid mistakes the early colonists made and jumpships were far more available than they were post-succession wars. 


as for distance, assuming one jump per two weeks which is a VERY slow rate but one I'd expect of people wanting to baby their engines, you get 780 LY per year.  Three years and you're a long, long way from anyone.  As for habitable planets, the IS isn't special in any sort of astrographic manner-- you're likely to find about the same percentage of planets at your destination. 

Now, the question of population in crease is always a dicy one because there are a lot more issues than simply "number of women who can have kids" but even a modern population increase can take a small seed population and blow it up to millions of even billions in the time period we're talking.  Technology ditto-- the reason there are no jump ship production facilities is pure and solely authorial fiat.  Given that the technology actually predates the battlemech there's no reason even close worlds like the TC shouldn't have it, so again Authorial fiat.

And that's the real reason-- fundamentally the periphery is supposed to be something that is acted upon by the IS. Notice how even the clans are not effectively IS powers.  So I doubt if we're ever going to see any sort of advanced periphery power that doesn't have some odd and logic defying explanation for why it suddenly nuked itself into oblivion.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: solmanian on 25 July 2014, 08:08:11
Why did the Taurians even considered "periphery" to begin with? Before the Reunification wars, they were one of the most advanced and powerful powers in the galaxy, second only to the Terran Hegemony, and far outstripping the houses. I don't know how a ground campaign may look, but from aerospace campaign perspective, they could steam roll through the FedSuns.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Archangel on 25 July 2014, 09:15:41
Why did the Taurians even considered "periphery" to begin with? Before the Reunification wars, they were one of the most advanced and powerful powers in the galaxy, second only to the Terran Hegemony, and far outstripping the houses.

I have no idea where you got the idea that they were technologically far superior to the houses.  Per Reunification War, they were technologically "on par" with the six nations gathered under the Star League banner.

The biggest advantages that the Taurian Concordat had over the Federated Suns was that they had far fewer worlds to protect and could concentrate their force along one front (albeit with two foes-FedSuns and CapCon) to contend with while the Federated Suns had three separate fronts to worry about.  Not to mention that the FedSuns were still recovering from the civil war.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: solmanian on 25 July 2014, 09:40:09
They had a far better education (which the Davion were trying to copy, with only partial success), and their army wasn't just concentrated, it was also kinda huge. There's a reason it took more than two decades of some of the most brutal fighting of the setting including judicious huge of ortillery and WMDs.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Medron Pryde on 25 July 2014, 16:28:20
I think they are considered Periphery since they did not welcome the Star League with open arms.

Therefore they were not a part of united humanity and had to be told they were wrong by the rest of humanity.

Making them Peripheral to Terran-based humanity.

So in short...more political than geographical, since almost all of their territory was less than 500 lightyears from Terra at the time...
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 26 July 2014, 02:43:54
While rare, there's no reason in universe why there couldn't be-- by the Age of War colonization was more or less old hat, so you were unlikely to make the stupid mistakes the early colonists made and jumpships were far more available than they were post-succession wars. 

....

And that's the real reason-- fundamentally the periphery is supposed to be something that is acted upon by the IS. Notice how even the clans are not effectively IS powers.  So I doubt if we're ever going to see any sort of advanced periphery power that doesn't have some odd and logic defying explanation for why it suddenly nuked itself into oblivion.

True enough. And there is also no reason why deep periphery states cannot have a 'reformer', 'modernizer' or whatever who can actually create or build upon tech imported from the IS. If there are states, then there is an intrinsic ability to change, evolve and organize oneself. This happens to the near periphery in a limited measure, such as in the case of the Oberon state, Rim Collection and the Marians. But they are always held back.

I mean honestly, why shouldn't the Marians with their mineral riches, be at a par with IS in almost everything?
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Korzon77 on 26 July 2014, 02:44:59
They had a far better education (which the Davion were trying to copy, with only partial success), and their army wasn't just concentrated, it was also kinda huge. There's a reason it took more than two decades of some of the most brutal fighting of the setting including judicious huge of ortillery and WMDs.

This is where fiat comes in again (and more or less is in play for the entire region) after the fall of the SL, the TC has about 250 years to rebuild. And htey have worlds that are fully protected-- if there are any attacks on their core worlds until the Jihad they're very small.  And the TC managed to build up from a very low tech level to a levle that if not equal to the Star League, was certainly enough to give them a nasty tussle.

And yet with an eduational establishment that was, while not equal to the old TC, still very impressive in the core worlds, with centuries of freedom from inner sphere oppressin and with a very *strong* naval tradition... the TC never even managed to build jump ships? 

There are escuses you can make, but it really comes down to the idea that the center story should be on the Inner Sphere not the periphery and thus no periphery nation could be allowed to grow during this period. 
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Archangel on 26 July 2014, 04:53:39
I mean honestly, why shouldn't the Marians with their mineral riches, be at a par with IS in almost everything?

Main reason? They are not one of the major factions that the game revolves around.

There are escuses you can make, but it really comes down to the idea that the center story should be on the Inner Sphere not the periphery and thus no periphery nation could be allowed to grow during this period. 

Oh they can grow, just not to the point they draw the focus of the story away from the major players.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 26 July 2014, 18:26:15
Well actually the focus now is essentially on Clan rampages through the IS and periphery. The bigger factions are ridiculously underpowered while half dead clans just blast their way through any force which the spheroids put forward. I mean honestly, after a century of contact with the clans, the IS hasn't actually learned how to counter them?
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Archangel on 26 July 2014, 21:20:09
Well actually the focus now is essentially on Clan rampages through the IS and periphery. The bigger factions are ridiculously underpowered while half dead clans just blast their way through any force which the spheroids put forward. I mean honestly, after a century of contact with the clans, the IS hasn't actually learned how to counter them?

The focus is on the Inner Sphere once again being consumed by war after a period of relative peace.  Will the Lyrans survive the Falcon and Wolf onslaught?  Will the FedSuns survive the Combine and Capellan invasions?  Will the reborn FWL reclaim its position as one of the Great Houses and what impact will they have on the Inner Sphere?  All the major action is focused in the Inner Sphere.  The Periphery states, including Raven Alliance, have once again become secondary players to the main players.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Jellico on 31 July 2014, 07:35:38
They had a far better education (which the Davion were trying to copy, with only partial success), and their army wasn't just concentrated, it was also kinda huge. There's a reason it took more than two decades of some of the most brutal fighting of the setting including judicious huge of ortillery and WMDs.

Finland has arguably the best education system in the world, is technologically advanced and has a serious military tradition, yet they are not a major world player.

Major player status usually comes down to accessible resources and population.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: CungrVanck on 31 July 2014, 12:45:20
I would like to point out the Auxmite Providence for this discussion.  It is a primitive state beyond the Lyran Commonwealth and the Free Worlds League.  It has 20/21st century tech (they do have fusion reactors) and has one working jumpship left over from when they colonized their 12 worlds back before the First Star League.  They have no standing military and only recently opened communications with anyone (just IE)....in 3085.

The timeline is now up to 3145 now and we have heard of a potential time jumps to 3250 and beyond.

So the question is...just what has the government of the Providence been up to in all that time?  If they followed Terra's original tech invention...they could possibly have primitive jumpship production in 3145, possibly modern jumpships if IE helped them.  Now say that someone gives them some primitive battlemech plans or working battlemechs and then jump the time line to 3250.  If won't be a Great House, but it will be a significant power.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: solmanian on 31 July 2014, 17:12:09
Building a shipyard capable of producing jumpships is no way near easy; even the power players in the IS only have a handful each, with the smaller ones having one or none.
It demands the kind of education that you just not going to find in the deep periphery.
It demands the kind of industrial base, that you're not going to find in the deep periphery. And with tech rating B pushing on C, this guys won't get there without a sponsor with deep pockets like the WOB/C* of old.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Korzon77 on 31 July 2014, 18:13:20
yes, but se that makes absolutely no sense.  The TC managed to start building not just jumpships but actual warships well before the reunification war.  They also have several safe havens and were not involved in the Succession wars.  We also know, by word of god, that while intersteller commerce is a thing, staples aren't shipped-- so there is absolutely no, none, zip, nada, way that you can explain that a home world with a population of over four billion and A ratings that cannot build even older jumpships.  This is especially the case when they do have a dropship industry and a navel history.  The fact of the matter is that by any even partially realistic look at technology and social progress, the TC should be ahead of the IS by 3025, benefiting from an unparalleled period of peace that came after the collapse of the Star League, since pirates couldn't penetrate through to the core of the Concordat.
 
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Archangel on 01 August 2014, 05:35:42
They also have several safe havens and were not involved in the Succession wars.

While they might not have gotten directly involved in the Succession Wars, they did suffer many of the same crippling effects due to the fall of the Star League and the loss of technology.  And even though they did not get directly involved in the Succession they did engage in warfare, in particular against their former and future allies the Magistracy.  Like every state, worlds were lost as terraforming equipment failed and billions died due to lack of food and lack of trade.

Quote
We also know, by word of god, that while intersteller commerce is a thing, staples aren't shipped-- so there is absolutely no, none, zip, nada, way that you can explain that a home world with a population of over four billion and A ratings that cannot build even older jumpships.

Easily explained.  They don't have a source of Germanium which is vital in the manufacture of KF drives.  Just having an A rating doesn't mean that all the appropriate skills, resources and funds are available at the same time.  Not to mention that its not a simple matter of building a shipyard and then pumping out JumpShips, one needs to build a supply chain that can provide all the parts needed which may even entail building orbital factories to manufacture parts that need to be manufactured away from the detrimental effects of gravity.

Quote
This is especially the case when they do have a dropship industry and a navel history.  The fact of the matter is that by any even partially realistic look at technology and social progress, the TC should be ahead of the IS by 3025, benefiting from an unparalleled period of peace that came after the collapse of the Star League, since pirates couldn't penetrate through to the core of the Concordat.

The only way they would have gotten ahead of the Inner Sphere technology-wise is if they large amounts of money in R&D.  Simply having an excellent educational system doesn't induce the development of new technologies, it simply brings people up to the standard.  One not only needs innovative minds but they need to be able to get in contact with those who have the resources to help develop their ideas and bring them to life and be able to persuade them to back their ideas.  And while it certainly reassured its citizens and make them happy, the excellent social services system maintained by the TC was sure to be a huge draw on their budget, which along with the military and other government outlays limited what was available for R&D.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Korzon77 on 01 August 2014, 22:51:16
While they might not have gotten directly involved in the Succession Wars, they did suffer many of the same crippling effects due to the fall of the Star League and the loss of technology.  And even though they did not get directly involved in the Succession they did engage in warfare, in particular against their former and future allies the Magistracy.  Like every state, worlds were lost as terraforming equipment failed and billions died due to lack of food and lack of trade.

Which is a short term problem at best.  In fact, the loss of the trade could benefit them, driving local businesses.  The loss of pepole on planets due to technological failure A. isn't going to hurt the TC that badly, not given that the vast majority of their industry is on the core garden worlds. If anything, those deaths benefit the TC, reducing the need to maintain marginal worlds.  As for wars, they had one major conflict with the Magistracy-- a conflict which largely puttered out without any strikes on anyone's core areas. 

Quote
Easily explained.  They don't have a source of Germanium which is vital in the manufacture of KF drives.  Just having an A rating doesn't mean that all the appropriate skills, resources and funds are available at the same time.  Not to mention that its not a simple matter of building a shipyard and then pumping out JumpShips, one needs to build a supply chain that can provide all the parts needed which may even entail building orbital factories to manufacture parts that need to be manufactured away from the detrimental effects of gravity.

All of which the TC has.  The core worlds have a population ranging from 6-10 billion.  In other words, the TC in say, 3000 has an industrial plant, economy and knowledge base larger than that of the old Terran Alliance at the beginning of its drive to colonize the human sphere.  in other words, we're asked to see how someone couldn't build a jump drive when they have a bigger economy than Terra did-- at the time when Terra first started to expand. That was, of course with the added problem that the Terran's didn't know how to design jump ships, as in "we don't even know if this theory works."  The TC does.
Germanium isn't a big issue-- its the 50th most common element and in any case the concordat was able to extract enough before the Reunification war to build a fleet bigger than anyone other than the SLDF...so unless they've lost all those maps...

Quote
The only way they would have gotten ahead of the Inner Sphere technology-wise is if they large amounts of money in R&D.  Simply having an excellent educational system doesn't induce the development of new technologies, it simply brings people up to the standard.  One not only needs innovative minds but they need to be able to get in contact with those who have the resources to help develop their ideas and bring them to life and be able to persuade them to back their ideas.  And while it certainly reassured its citizens and make them happy, the excellent social services system maintained by the TC was sure to be a huge draw on their budget, which along with the military and other government outlays limited what was available for R&D.

These are both incorrect.  First of all, an excellent educational system doesn't just bring people up to the standard-- it creates those innovative minds. And again: A larger economy than the Terran economy prior to the disapora.  They have all the resources they need.    As for the social systems, that is not the case-- in fact, and without getting into RW politics too much, a robust social system can actually spur investment due to the confidence that having a social safety net gives. It can especially spur low level investment, the sort that helped create companies like Apple and Microsoft, by making it possible for small start ups to get investors.

There is absolutely no reason-- no conceivable reason, why the TC as written isn't doing very well.  Any even remotely realistic view of technogical and industrial progress should have them churning out warships and jumpships.  Unfortunately, this is another case where a (very misguided IMO) adherence to canon leaves us dealing with the evils of Fasanomics, which are largely the product of a setting that often indicated that mechs weren't hard to make-- they were impossible to make without automated factories and that by and large the worlds of man were looking omre like ":"Mad MAx" with giant robots than a functioning economy. 

Personally, if I had any ability (which I don't) a future edition of battletech would take a "kill it with fire" approach to canon.  Either drastically increase the size of the forces, or dramatically decrease the number of garden worlds and habitable worlds.  Because what we have now in terms of talkign about technological and economic progress is more fantastical than the idea of FTL drives.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: solmanian on 02 August 2014, 00:12:31
Technology isn't a linear thing. If you separate two cultures for a millennia, they won't develop the same technologies.
The clans are a bad example for this, because they did actually focus on making linear improvements; taking SL tech, and improving it performance, rather than innovate. Though they did invent HarJal, and Iron wombs.

The deep periphery is a better example. Sure the IS suffered  from stagnation in the SW, but the deep periphery is considered regressed even by SW standards.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Korzon77 on 02 August 2014, 01:17:28
But that gets to fiat level changes-- ISP 3 has worlds with populations large enough to sustain a massive technological base, but never goes anywhere.

Now again, the reason is that the focus in Btech is the inner sphere and immediate neighbors-- having someone in the far periphery, say to the size of the TC startsto hurt that. And from a gaming perspective, or rather a game *publisher* perspective, it makes sense-- they' have a ton of stuff to print out just to cover already mentioned eras.

But froma more general perspective-- it makes no sense.  It's saying that some magical force keeps the far periphery down, even though worlds there, some of which have been colonized since before the star league, missed the reunification war, the Amaris civil war and the disorder after it, and were also so far away that they were unlikely to be found by pirates, which is the next big go-to for explaining why the periphery is unable to progress.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 02 August 2014, 03:43:31
But that gets to fiat level changes-- ISP 3 has worlds with populations large enough to sustain a massive technological base, but never goes anywhere.

Now again, the reason is that the focus in Btech is the inner sphere and immediate neighbors-- having someone in the far periphery, say to the size of the TC startsto hurt that. And from a gaming perspective, or rather a game *publisher* perspective, it makes sense-- they' have a ton of stuff to print out just to cover already mentioned eras.

But froma more general perspective-- it makes no sense.  It's saying that some magical force keeps the far periphery down, even though worlds there, some of which have been colonized since before the star league, missed the reunification war, the Amaris civil war and the disorder after it, and were also so far away that they were unlikely to be found by pirates, which is the next big go-to for explaining why the periphery is unable to progress.

Totally agree! Frankly even in the deep periphery, one is bound to get 1 genius per generation who actually pushes tech forward. Furthermore, if there is something very interesting about the deep periphery is that many of its planets are quite 'heavily' populated (say with a population akin to Brazil or so). So even if the educational system was lacking in coverage, there still would be some advancement over time - to make a historical example - akin to the renaissance in Italy. Additionally the deep periphery is not normally troubled by constant warfare or planet killing pirate raids, and therefore more prone to prosper over time.

Actually, the idea that shipyards are difficult to come by is also rather silly. When the Clans came knocking, everyone and his brother built additional slips to engage in a massive shipbuilding spree. And if germanium is the bottleneck, please note that some of the best sources of the material actually lie in the periphery (the Marians and that pirate mine/shipyard which I forgot its name).

To be perfectly honest, the scenario whereby the periphery became stagnant can only be attributable to them going dumb coz they lost contact with mother earth ::) However, the same people are still able to maintain advanced stuff almost indefinitely, almost at will - which is kind of contradictory.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: rebs on 02 August 2014, 12:28:55
To be perfectly honest, the scenario whereby the periphery became stagnant can only be attributable to them going dumb coz they lost contact with mother earth ::) However, the same people are still able to maintain advanced stuff almost indefinitely, almost at will - which is kind of contradictory.

Or...  we haven't been told the whole story yet. 

A mercenary force stumbled upon the Auxumite Providence (and the Union of Samoyedic Colonies) and agreed to keep their location a secret.  IE's expedition was next to visit the region and may have agreed to under report their strength, leaving us all with the laughable impression that AP has only one antique jumpship and no way to repair it.

Not only does this succeed in painting the Auxumite Providence as weak, but also as a place that is too far and has too little to benefit any potential IS conqueror. 

Not to argue really, but if the information we receive seems contradictory, I like to examine it and see if perhaps it isn't purposefully so. And then I speculate wildly about why that would be so.  It keeps the world going around...    ;)
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Archangel on 02 August 2014, 14:37:16
Totally agree! Frankly even in the deep periphery, one is bound to get 1 genius per generation who actually pushes tech forward. Furthermore, if there is something very interesting about the deep periphery is that many of its planets are quite 'heavily' populated (say with a population akin to Brazil or so). So even if the educational system was lacking in coverage, there still would be some advancement over time - to make a historical example - akin to the renaissance in Italy. Additionally the deep periphery is not normally troubled by constant warfare or planet killing pirate raids, and therefore more prone to prosper over time.

Do you have ISP3?  It provides several examples of how technology can stagnate or be lost.

War - Just because they don't suffer from the Succession Wars doesn't mean periphery planets don't have that limit their technological development or causes them to lose technologies.  Example - Alexandrian Covenant (early).  War, or the threat thereof, has also frequently been a driving force behind technological development including computers, communications technologies, rockets, medicine and airplanes.

Culture/Religion - Societies occasionally develop where technological innovation is not a pressing concern.  Examples - Union of Samoyedic Colonies, Society of St. Andreas, Dante and Alexandrian Covenant (late).  Detroit, possibly the most advanced world in the Periphery, was founded

Environmental - Environmental issues can limit technological development or drive it in a specific direction.  Examples - New Delphi Compact, Frobisher and Midden.

Lack of specialists or a basic understanding of underlying technologies - One can't develop more advanced technologies without a basic understanding of the underlying technologies that make it possible aka you can't go from horse drawn carriages to JumpShips without developing at least some of the technologies that lie in between.  Example - Axumites

Other factors:
Motivation - The desire or need to travel into space has to outweigh the cost of developing the technology for the effort to be made to develop it.  We have known for decades that we live in a world of limited resources but we have several curtailed our efforts to seek new sources off-world.

Matter of timing - Sometimes geniuses are born before their time aka before their theories can be made possible whether due to technological limitations or the astronomical cost of development. Examples - Michaelangelo, Professor Kearny and Professor Fujita.

Lack of raw/vital materials - Lack of vital raw materials can easily limit technological development.  Only a small percentage of worlds have ready supplies of Germanium without which JumpShip construction is impossible.  Even if Germanium is available in the system, the locals may lack the ability (or technology) to find it or mine it.  Examples -

Quote
Actually, the idea that shipyards are difficult to come by is also rather silly. When the Clans came knocking, everyone and his brother built additional slips to engage in a massive shipbuilding spree. And if germanium is the bottleneck, please note that some of the best sources of the material actually lie in the periphery (the Marians and that pirate mine/shipyard which I forgot its name).

Even the Inner Sphere powers, with the exception of Necromo shipyards, didn't build entire shipyards from scratch, they expanded existing ones if they didn't simple reassign existing slips to WarShip production.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Korzon77 on 02 August 2014, 20:44:59
Except none of those make sense given the history of the Inner Sphere--which evidently didn't have those problems.  There's no magic perhiphery barrier that makes everyone get stupid-- and beyond that the deep periphery has many reasons why it should be more successful than the IS, starting with the lack of genocidal wars breaking out every century of so.  Most of the Great Houses started from small explorations, linking up with other worlds that originally had equally small populations and yet grew big enough to form the IS.  The TC started with under (well under) a million people. 

The question isn't why haven't some deep periphery powers failed, it is why, with all the advantages of the Inner Sphere and without the massive conflicts that keep dragging powers down, have *none* achieve the same level of success that, say the OA or TC did-- remembering that the only reason those two powers didn't continue growing was a 20 year genocidal war launched against tehm. (and the war was genocidal-- the reunification war flat out stat4s the in a number of caess Fourlough's attacks resuled in hundreds of millions dead per world). 

There is one answer-- writer fiat.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Archangel on 02 August 2014, 23:22:01
Except none of those make sense given the history of the Inner Sphere--which evidently didn't have those problems.  There's no magic perhiphery barrier that makes everyone get stupid-- and beyond that the deep periphery has many reasons why it should be more successful than the IS, starting with the lack of genocidal wars breaking out every century of so.  Most of the Great Houses started from small explorations, linking up with other worlds that originally had equally small populations and yet grew big enough to form the IS.  The TC started with under (well under) a million people. 

The question isn't why haven't some deep periphery powers failed, it is why, with all the advantages of the Inner Sphere and without the massive conflicts that keep dragging powers down, have *none* achieve the same level of success that, say the OA or TC did-- remembering that the only reason those two powers didn't continue growing was a 20 year genocidal war launched against tehm. (and the war was genocidal-- the reunification war flat out stat4s the in a number of caess Fourlough's attacks resuled in hundreds of millions dead per world). 

One, none of the deep periphery states have the population that the close periphery states have since fewer groups chose to venture that far out into space.  Two, none of the deep periphery states have a HPG network to coordinate research projects between multiple planets.  Three, the three most populous deep periphery states have a major factor limiting their technological progress.  In the Hansa, the feuds between rival trade families not only limits cooperation but occasionally spills into sabotage, assassination, raids and the occasional war.  The New Delphi Compact has no interest in interstellar technology out of fear of exporting their disease and inflicting it on other worlds.  The religious overtones and the occasional coup in the Alexandrian Convenant limits technological progress.  The last time a government official proposed fixing up one of their grounded DropShips, the entire patriarchal government was overthrown and killed and replaced with a matriarchal society.  Fourth, the genocidal aspects were limited to the Outworlds and Taurian fronts and were especially bad during Furlough's tenure in both zones.  The Magistracy suffered far less as the Star League forces continued to heed the Ares Conventions.  Fifth, the Star League did help them rebuild after the war (into a Star League approved society).
Two, the three largest deep Periphery states, the Hansa, New Delphi Compact and the Alexandrian Covenant, have had their own share of internal conflict as well as the occasional pirate raid.  Within the Hansa, despite officially being at peace, the various trade families are constantly seeking to weaken their rivals.  Building a shipyard woul The New Delphi Compact has the Within the Alexandrian Covenant, the after the RW, the Star League did help them rebuild (into a Star League-approved society)

Quote
There is one answer-- writer fiat.

The entire BT universe is writer fiat.  They have provided explanations but it is your choice whether you accept them or not.  Personally, I don't care for the explanations the author provided for why the several Clans acted against their firmly established character.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: rebs on 03 August 2014, 11:01:19
Not the F word!

It does stand to reason that human colonies that are packed closer together (like the IS) will experience greater progress due to their ability to support/exploit each other through trade and the sharing of knowledge.  And also that those with less contact with the outside will more often than not stagnate.  Not to mention, those colonies that face a daily survival threat mostly due to their lack of necessary technologies such as can be found in the Canopian Ruins, the Outwords Wastes, etc, simply have their hands full existing.

Think about Maslow and his hierarchy of needs applied to large groups of humans attempting survival.  If you can barely meet your own basic needs to feed yourself, to protect yourself from ruffians like pirates, or to have a comfortable and secure place to rest whilst unconscious and therefore most vulnerable, you are going to have a very freaking hard time building an orbital slip and construction facilities with which to construct warships. 
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: jklantern on 03 August 2014, 15:40:09
  If you can barely meet your own basic needs to feed yourself, to protect yourself from ruffians like pirates, or to have a comfortable and secure place to rest whilst unconscious and therefore most vulnerable, you are going to have a very freaking hard time building an orbital slip and construction facilities with which to construct warships.

Really?  I just did that last week.

The HMS Mitchell Avellar's Raging Pimp Hand is coming along quite nicely.   :D
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Korzon77 on 03 August 2014, 18:03:01
Not the F word!

It does stand to reason that human colonies that are packed closer together (like the IS) will experience greater progress due to their ability to support/exploit each other through trade and the sharing of knowledge.  And also that those with less contact with the outside will more often than not stagnate.  Not to mention, those colonies that face a daily survival threat mostly due to their lack of necessary technologies such as can be found in the Canopian Ruins, the Outwords Wastes, etc, simply have their hands full existing.

Think about Maslow and his hierarchy of needs applied to large groups of humans attempting survival.  If you can barely meet your own basic needs to feed yourself, to protect yourself from ruffians like pirates, or to have a comfortable and secure place to rest whilst unconscious and therefore most vulnerable, you are going to have a very freaking hard time building an orbital slip and construction facilities with which to construct warships.

I think the Taurians did fairly well. And the conditions your talking about existed right after teh first diasporac and the withdrawal of the Alliance and abandonment of the colonies...and yet from them we get the Lyrans, Davions, etc, etc. Especially the Taurians who remained hidden and thus cut off from much of intersteller society without trade or knoweldge-- and yet managed to produce the largest warfleet outside of the SLDF. 

Also, the fact is that most of these words exist at the 21st century level tech. That's the low level tech (and it's even flat out mentioned in the outworlds wastes). The worlds beyond in the deep periphery have populations of hundreds of millions and a tech that allows them to dedicate much of their energies to industry in stead of agriculture.  They also have something that is absolutely vital for intersteller commerce...

And is an antique technology.  By 3025 Jump ships have been around for nearly 1,000 years.

Let's rephrase that, nearly *10 centuries*. It's also vital. Oddly enough I have yet to hear about any nation forgetting how to build steam engines.  It's almost as if...such knowledge stays around. And no. Comstar does not have the ability to suppress that information. Not unless Comstar's head isn't the Master, but Lucifer Morningstar.

Any justifications for why there are no major powers in the deep periphery are wrong, full stop end of argument. The only reason for that is that the PTB made a very fiat decision and a very *dump* decision that has harmed the setting, which is basically to take a protractor out and say: beyond this range from terra, there shall be no great powers. Everyone coming here gets hit by the stupid field, unless they're techno barbarian clans.*  Not every world has to be successful, but enough would-- as we saw with the history of the Inner Sphere, which was, after all, once the periphery as far as earth was concerned.  Those worlds, enough had little problem expanding and building and many of them existed in just the same condition as the periphery.

*which is the amusing thing-- if there's anyone ho should have regressed, it's the Clans. Their entire society is basically set up to fail. 
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: CungrVanck on 04 August 2014, 10:35:22
The key reason why we do not have any deep periphery powers is story plot / writer's choice.  I have no problems with this personally as the universe has been going smashingly.  Until one exists, I can just create one for my table if the needs arise.

However, if the writer's ever needed to build a deep periphery power, then they don't have to break anything.  Look at this timetable from the in-universe look at expansion from Terra as stated in the original Star League sourcebook.

2021 - First Fusion Generator built
2108 - First Interstellar voyage
2116 - First Interstellar colony
2168 - 108 registered interstellar colonies

So in 147 years, Terra goes from not having fusion technology on one planet to having fusion-powered interstellar starships traveling to 108 star systems.  They become an interstellar civilization in 87 years.  Now consider that the theories put forth for the K-F Drive were considered to be a joke for decades in-universe.  So they could have potentially expanded faster than that had they recognized the science as valid.

Now consider the Axumite Providence as an example of where a Deep Periphery power could potentially arise from.  In 3085, they already have fusion power, interplanetary travel, and interstellar travel between 12 systems.  While they may not be able to build a jumpship yet, they have the resources (12 systems), tech (Fusion and regular interplanetary travel) and the knowledge (they have a working jumpship so they know it can be done and still have the equations / know how to keep it working over centuries).

If the Providence ever wanted to expand their colonies, conquer neighboring worlds (The Samoyed colonies are not that far away) or a dire crisis required more interstellar transport arose, it is not that far fetched to think they could have built a shipyard to build primitive jumpships.

Ponder this......the time line is now at 3145 or 60 years after our last information describing the Providence in 3085.  That's more than two thirds the time it took Terra to build a ship and they had to learn every step of the way while the Providence have a working model.

If you were to jump the time line to 3250, then you add another 105 years to that.  That gets you 165 years...or more time than it took Terra to colonize 108 worlds.

So it is not impossible to have some existing nation state or an unknown state (Further out) to expand and become a major player that could effect the story line.  This universe covers centuries of time!

We just have to wait until the plot / story needs a new empire to exist and BOOM....we will get one :)
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: rebs on 04 August 2014, 22:50:39
Really?  I just did that last week.

I know the feeling sometimes.  But I still haven't made much headway on my own orbital slip.  It can barely fit a hot water tank shell right now.  :-[

But aside from that we all know that the Periphery will never emerge from its dilapidated state without folks like you there to hold back the ruffians.  And pizza.  Because the Auxumites had to stop using their ride for delivery after their dad saw all the bumps and dings that were getting on it...  I guess it's like their only one or something.  ;)
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Korzon77 on 04 August 2014, 23:41:22
If you want to have a good reason why jumpships are rare you could od it very simply-- instead of Germanium, assume that some or all of a KF core comes from elements in the "island of stability" a group fo transuranic elements that are,by theory at least, thought to be stable. However creating them in industrial amounts would require a ot of power (think plating most of mercury in solar panels) and would be, to put it mildly the work of a great deal of mega engineering.  That might also be a good way to increase comstars power-- the only remaining source for these elements is the mercury refinery, which is owned by Comstar and that, more than anything else keeps earth safe-- nobody wants to risk interstellar commerce.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Archangel on 04 August 2014, 23:57:33
How about native Americans in both North and South America?  In some places they had extensive empires and developed some pretty impressive architecture but their technology was centuries behind the Europeans when Columbus arrived in the New World.

Regardless, you can believe what you want to believe.  I will accept what little the writers provide us (not that I will necessarily like it or completely agree with it).
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Offworlder on 05 August 2014, 08:04:25
The basic problem here is that the Periphery is kind of destined to fail. Sometimes a state is built up only to be torn down again.

Having said that, some things simply do not make much sense. Taking the Hansa for example, we know that they have extensive merchant fleets. Yet, despite commerce being their lifeblood, they seem to have no shipyard (unless one pops up in Bremen which is kind of the radar for all intents and purposes). Yet a tiny dysfunctional state like RWR Outpost 27 does have a ramshackle affair in place and so do the belt pirates.

Another thing about the Hansa is that they barter for stuff and have no currency. Really, in a state living through commerce? I mean if this was the Ramses Egypt is one thing, but we are kindly far removed from that state.

And btw, yes the Hansa did experience some upheavals but nothing to threaten its existence until the coming of clan raids just after the Reaving. So its not that they had to dedicate much of whatever they produced just for survival. Now they may have to do so, but it was not the case for a couple of centuries.
Title: Re: Any -major- periphery powers?
Post by: Moonsword on 05 August 2014, 11:28:41
Thread locked for review.

EDIT: On review, the moderators have elected to leave this thread locked because it's getting a bit contentious and political.