BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => Aerospace Combat => Topic started by: Jellico on 01 November 2013, 02:12:03
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Creating this as a central thread to discuss the ongoing Field Reports 2765 as they come out, and the fleets and new WarShips listed within, and how they interact with each other.
Field Report 2765 CCAF is out http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,2209.msg805562.html#msg805562 (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,2209.msg805562.html#msg805562). The Cappies have a fleet (p5) and even new WarShips (p19). Buy and discuss
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Capellans get their first shot at the party got to love being first in the alphabet.
5 Battleships
1 Vintage Battle-cruiser (new variant of class)
10 Heavy Cruisers (new Class) (SLS Surprise) ;D
6 old Heavy Cruisers
3 Destroyers 1 class
2 Destroyers another class
2 Destroyers of another class
2 Destroyers of another class
and six Corvettes 3 of one class another three of another
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1 Vintage Battle-cruiser (new variant of class)
It is not a variant. McKenna's Black Lion featured in the SL Source Book and has very different intro dates to the TRO2750 Black Lion.
10 Heavy Cruisers (new Class) (SLS Surprise) ;D
SLS Surprise was a modified Conqueror and nothing to do with the Soyal.
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Well, it certainly looks like the Capellans posess what looks to be a decently balanced fleet. Rather top-heavy, but I guess that makes sense for a navy that expects to go up against the likes of the New Syrtis and Atreus classes, to say nothing of Terran battleships.
SLS Surprise was a modified Conqueror and nothing to do with the Soyal.
They took a ship from the future and slapped a Mass Driver onto it? I know naval tech didn't advance that much, but you'd still think they'd try to disassemble and reverse-engineer it... ;)
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They took a ship from the future and slapped a Mass Driver onto it? I know naval tech didn't advance that much, but you'd still think they'd try to disassemble and reverse-engineer it... ;)
Okay then. A Kirishima. Though I swear the idea came from that bow on Conq art.
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*assumes you meant Kimagure instead of needling you with another joke about time-traveling WarShips*
From what I recall in discussions, I think the Surprise is actually mentioned somewhere, though I cannot remember where.
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Well, it certainly looks like the Capellans posess what looks to be a decently balanced fleet. Rather top-heavy, but I guess that makes sense for a navy that expects to go up against the likes of the New Syrtis and Atreus classes, to say nothing of Terran battleships.
They took a ship from the future and slapped a Mass Driver onto it? I know naval tech didn't advance that much, but you'd still think they'd try to disassemble and reverse-engineer it... ;)
I have to say, I dig how the Soyal came out. She feels like a heavy cruiser despite her battleship-range mass, throw weight is about dead on for a heavy cruiser, and the idea of Capellan orbital bombardments with mass drivers in reprisal strikes during the First Succession War seems like both a painfully obvious idea, and a painfully obvious reason why the FWLN and AFFSN would target the Soyal with such extreme prejudice they'd be wiped out. I'm sure the Copeland were hoping the mass driver would help even out the fleet disparities with their neighbors, too.
Of course, having the details on the Capellan Navy circa 2765 makes me wonder which ship I want to lead a rag tag fugitive fleet out to some hole in the wall Periphery colony. The Typhon has a certain appeal. :P
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I have to say, I dig how the Soyal came out.
Thanks! Great lengths were taken to create a ship 'bad' enough that an admiralty that accepted(and kept!) the hideously flawed Cameron-class would reject it, but was still good enough that players would actually want to use it.
Don't forget that the FWL also bought some Soyals. I wonder if the early Succession Wars ever saw all-Soyal duels. I imagine such fights would either drag on for quite some time while captains tried to gain a superior position doghfight-style and peppered their opponents with the secondary weapons, and then would end quite suddenly when one ship finally lined up and connected with the spinal cannon.
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*assumes you meant Kimagure instead of needling you with another joke about time-traveling WarShips*
From what I recall in discussions, I think the Surprise is actually mentioned somewhere, though I cannot remember where.
I've been thinking that I read that name somewhere before too, and I'm tearing my hair out trying to think where. ISP3:IE talks about testing of a mass driver mounted on a refit Kimagure, as mentioned below, but doesn't mention the name of the ship.
Historical: Liberation of Terra Vol 1 shows the CCAF WarShip fleet increasing from 30 hulls in 2750 to 37 by 2765. I wonder how many of those 7 hulls were new Soyals. It'll be interesting to see if we learn how far those plans to obtain additional hulls went by the beginning of the First Succession War.
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I've been thinking that I read that name somewhere before too, and I'm tearing my hair out trying to think where. ISP3:IE talks about testing of a mass driver mounted on a refit Kimagure, as mentioned below, but doesn't mention the name of the ship.
Forgot about that bit. Okay, Surprise is almost certainly a Kimagure, then. Must be interesting putting a Mass Driver onto something that maneuverable. Too bad you can only fit a light one onto a hull that small.
(Yes, I did just refer to a 700+ kiloton WarShip as a small vessel that could only mount a light weapon. I find this hilarious. ;D)
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Forgot about that bit. Okay, Surprise is almost certainly a Kimagure, then. Must be interesting putting a Mass Driver onto something that maneuverable. Too bad you can only fit a light one onto a hull that small.
(Yes, I did just refer to a 700+ kiloton WarShip as a small vessel that could only mount a light weapon. I find this hilarious. ;D)
I've been putting individual ship articles on Sarna for months now, and I'm enjoying FR:CCAF 2765 so much that it's actively bugging me I need to wait 3 months before I can add the SLS Surprise as a ship on Sarna based on the FR and this thread. It's going to sit in my bookmarks list haunting me until the day this comes out of moratorium...
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I don't get the million and a half ton heavy cruiser is a pretty big heavy cruiser.
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I don't get the million and a half ton heavy cruiser is a pretty big heavy cruiser.
You know, there was a single line throwaway reference in the battlespace sourcebook about how in the Star League era cruiser class ships could get as big as a million and a half tons. I wonder if the Soyal is a nod to that.
And if it is, such an attention to continuity makes me happy.
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Considering the Black Lion I started life as a mention of McKenna's flag battle cruiser in the Star League sourcebook?
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Considering the Black Lion I started life as a mention of McKenna's flag battle cruiser in the Star League sourcebook?
And presumably a particularly famous goof in tro 3057?
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I don't get the million and a half ton heavy cruiser is a pretty big heavy cruiser.
Had to be that big to fit the Mass Driver into it. Definitely a ship where capabilities determine the classification, not the mass.
One of the driving forces behind the Soyal's design was that the designers did not know what they were doing. They were good enough that the ship won't actually blow up when you use the elevator, but almost every detail that lies between a functioning WarShip and a good WarShip eluded them. The bloated mass was a kind of feature creep.
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Had to be that big to fit the Mass Driver into it. Definitely a ship where capabilities determine the classification, not the mass.
One of the driving forces behind the Soyal's design was that the designers did not know what they were doing. They were good enough that the ship won't actually blow up when you use the elevator, but almost every detail that lies between a functioning WarShip and a good WarShip eluded them. The bloated mass was a kind of feature creep.
Didn't even notice the mass driver. Thanks.
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You...didn't notice the ship's centerpiece!? :o
Clearly, the Soyal should been Newgrange-sized and carried a Heavy driver, as the Medium one isn't big enough to draw attention...
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And presumably a particularly famous goof in tro 3057?
Goof? ???
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And presumably a particularly famous goof in tro 3057?
Cray frowns upon traveling back in time in the canon 'verse, ISP2 aside.
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The fluff for the Black Lion in TRO 3057 makes mention to its service in the Reunification War, despite, well... not existing yet, and prior fluff indicating that class was specifically constructed in the post-war era.
The Black Lion-I (and re-use of the art and the canon explanation for that re-use) makes that at the very least one of the more understandable goofs Comstar made.
Cray frowns upon traveling back in time in the canon 'verse, ISP2 aside.
Indeed.
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I must say i am really excited about the Soyal-class. Giving it a mass driver is a fine touch and makes it stand out from all other published ship designs so far. The great artwork is also appreciated. I am a little surprised about the standard armour though. I would have thought a WarShip from the 28th century would do better and use at least improved ferro-aluminium. Also i missed some anti-ASF weaponry although looking at the Du Shi Wang this might be a typical cappelan trait. All-in-all a very exciting addition to the BTU.
The Black Lion I otoh is a little of a letdown. Stat-wise she seems ok (for a layman like me at least) and i like that she actually has some anti-ASF firepower. The concentration of firepower in the nose, aft and broadside firing arcs gives it some character and compared to other Warships of her time (early 24th century) she is also remarkably maneuverable. What i am rather disappointed about is that she is not a true cappelan design but yet another Terran Hegemony / Star League cast-off. As if we didn't have more than enough of those by now. Rehashing old artwork doesn't help either. Come on, even the Taurians got three domestic ships by now, so give us some genuine new House WarShips. I just hope that is not going to set a precedent for the next 2765 FMs.
But don't read too much into my little nitpicks. Overall FM 2765 CCAF is a splendid book. O0
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Personally, I love that the Black Lion I gives more fodder to those who want to play (or even just visualise) late Terran Alliance/early Terran Hegemony naval squadrons. We now have classes of battleship (first the Dreadnaught and later the Monsoon), battlecruiser (Black Lion I), ‘light’ cruiser (Dart — and note that it outmasses the BC!), missile-frigate (Quixote), destroyer (Lola-I), and two of corvette (Vigilant and Bonaventure). That’s a complete fleet-mix, baby. 8)
Would it be awesome if all the other nations had representation in all of the same classes? Yes. But that doesn’t mean I don’t love getting a better picture of WarShip ‘evolutionary trees’. ;)
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Personally, I love that the Black Lion I gives more fodder to those who want to play (or even just visualise) late Terran Alliance/early Terran Hegemony naval squadrons. We now have classes of battleship (first the Dreadnaught and later the Monsoon), battlecruiser (Black Lion I), ‘light’ cruiser (Dart — and note that it outmasses the BC!), missile-frigate (Quixote), destroyer (Lola-I), and two of corvette (Vigilant and Bonaventure). That’s a complete fleet-mix, baby. 8)
Would it be awesome if all the other nations had representation in all of the same classes? Yes. But that doesn’t mean I don’t love getting a better picture of WarShip ‘evolutionary trees’. ;)
I agree that it's nice to have full evolutionary trees for different ship classes. I just think FM 2765 CCAF is not the best place to do that for the TA/TH. That would be something that a FM: The Age of War could do (*hint, hint*). As it stands now we have a rather large number of shiptypes for TA/TH/SL providing classes for nearly every occasion and in any desired flavour yet when it comes to the houses the list of known ship classes is depressingly short (at least IMO). I would like to see full-blown sets of domestic WarShips for all of the great houses because if they don't have them i start wonder why the TA/TH/SL kept on churning out new classes when there was basically no opponent to fight.
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I don't get the million and a half ton heavy cruiser is a pretty big heavy cruiser.
Historically plenty of cruisers have been bigger than battleships. When technology is reasonably static and you want to tweak for role something has to give on a fixed size.
Would it be awesome if all the other nations had representation in all of the same classes? Yes. But that doesn’t mean I don’t love getting a better picture of WarShip ‘evolutionary trees’. ;)
Major nations build major assets. Go have a look at any nation that is not the US or Russia and check out how much gear is foreign made.
The Houses are in the position of building a select few classes and purchasing the rest. And why not. The TH stuff is better.
*Opps. The Russians have just bought some Mistrals. Scratch them from the list.
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And presumably a particularly famous goof in tro 3057?
Recently pointed that one out here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,33878.0.html
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I agree that it's nice to have full evolutionary trees for different ship classes. I just think FM 2765 CCAF is not the best place to do that for the TA/TH. That would be something that a FM: The Age of War could do (*hint, hint*). As it stands now we have a rather large number of shiptypes for TA/TH/SL providing classes for nearly every occasion and in any desired flavour yet when it comes to the houses the list of known ship classes is depressingly short (at least IMO). I would like to see full-blown sets of domestic WarShips for all of the great houses because if they don't have them i start wonder why the TA/TH/SL kept on churning out new classes when there was basically no opponent to fight.
It's not exactly unprecedented, though - Historical: Reunification War gives us a ship listing for the AFFS fleet destroyed during Case Amber, which represented "over half of House Davion's WarShip fleet"; that fleet breaks down to the following WarShips:
3 Aegis-class cruisers
3 Congress-class frigates
7 Robinson-class transports
5 New Syrtis-class carriers
5 Baron-class destroyers
9 Davion II-class destroyer
7 Davion I-class destroyer
10 Vigilant-class corvettes
10 Vincent Mk. 39-class corvettes
So, of the 59 WarShips present, 31 were domestically produced and 28 were former Hegemony vessels. It may well be that during the Age of War, none of the House economies and technology bases were capable of producing a full range of WarShips for themselves - the Hegemony had a head start after all, while the Houses were busy fighting various internal wars of formation and building their bases up before then attacking each other.
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True, but you still might dream. :(
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I think AeroSpace/WarShip wise, were looking at is a old design and a new one per book.
There mentioned of the Essex I certainly suggest that pattern of new ships. Alot of the 2750 images became unused, so it would make sense to re-use them officially predecessor and aford mention ships from the past. It would save on money to pay for new ship images.
I think the first WarShips are going be the ones filling out the rest of the ranks of ships in 2765 series. FedSuns has the Defender, while the Commonwealth is mentioned as Lyran's first ship. Other "first" ships included the Free World League has the League and the MoC's has the Athena which if it does show up will be in FR:Periphery.
I can't remember off the top of my head of other ships mentioned in the 2750/3057 and other house books aside from the Golden Lion. I know the Draconis Combine had destroyers dating back to Age of War, but they were mentioned by name..so i doubt we'll see them unless the Narukami is the ship. I would find myself taken back if the Combine didn't get its own home-made Battleship for itself.
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Anyone else think the standard AC batteries are kind of odd? I mean, I get not putting the AC2s with the AC5s, when firing at long and extreme range you'd just be wasting the AC5's ammo and heat, but it seems strange to me that you'd break up the AC2's into two banks of 4, instead of 1 of 8.
I mean, I get redundancy and multiple targets, it just seems like an odd design choice.
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Anyone else think the standard AC batteries are kind of odd? I mean, I get not putting the AC2s with the AC5s, when firing at long and extreme range you'd just be wasting the AC5's ammo and heat, but it seems strange to me that you'd break up the AC2's into two banks of 4, instead of 1 of 8.
I mean, I get redundancy and multiple targets, it just seems like an odd design choice.
Look at Dreadnought. The ship had a similar weapons layout. It feels the person who designed it didn't want to make a monster verses something that lead to design evolution that eventually leftout conventional weapons off blueprints.
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A wise man once said context is everything. Check out Reunification War's Dreadnought record sheet.
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The goal was to provide the ability to engage multiple targets simultaneously with smaller bays than a single eight-gun bay would allow. :)
(I also can't remember if I carried those over directly from the Dreadnought or not: my copy of Reunification War is MIA)
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A wise man once said context is everything. Check out Reunification War's Dreadnought record sheet.
You realize there is no record sheet for the Dreadnought, right? Least the PDF version i bought lacks it and other WarShips.
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You realize there is no record sheet for the Dreadnought, right? Least the PDF version i bought lacks it and other WarShips.
It don't have a record sheet, but pretty easy to make up one.
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Anyone else think the standard AC batteries are kind of odd? I mean, I get not putting the AC2s with the AC5s, when firing at long and extreme range you'd just be wasting the AC5's ammo and heat, but it seems strange to me that you'd break up the AC2's into two banks of 4, instead of 1 of 8.
I mean, I get redundancy and multiple targets, it just seems like an odd design choice.
My guess would be that you didn't need the raw punch of an 8-pack back then. If the Dreadnought and Black Lion classes predate BAR 10 armor, then any aero units smaller than DropShips they'd face would have a damage threshold of 1.
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I think AeroSpace/WarShip wise, were looking at is a old design and a new one per book.
There mentioned of the Essex I certainly suggest that pattern of new ships. Alot of the 2750 images became unused, so it would make sense to re-use them officially predecessor and aford mention ships from the past. It would save on money to pay for new ship images.
I think the first WarShips are going be the ones filling out the rest of the ranks of ships in 2765 series. FedSuns has the Defender, while the Commonwealth is mentioned as Lyran's first ship. Other "first" ships included the Free World League has the League and the MoC's has the Athena which if it does show up will be in FR:Periphery.
I can't remember off the top of my head of other ships mentioned in the 2750/3057 and other house books aside from the Golden Lion. I know the Draconis Combine had destroyers dating back to Age of War, but they were mentioned by name..so i doubt we'll see them unless the Narukami is the ship. I would find myself taken back if the Combine didn't get its own home-made Battleship for itself.
Theory 1: the Defender class will be a Battleship or Battlecruiser and the class of the Golden Lion thus killing two birds with one stone (from orbit)
Theory 2: The combine will have a domestic BB as they are mentioned in LibTerra
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You realize there is no record sheet for the Dreadnought, right? Least the PDF version i bought lacks it and other WarShips.
True. But there is a nice table laying out the weapon bays.
You should be able to notice other similarities between the Black Lion I and Dreadnought.
My guess would be that you didn't need the raw punch of an 8-pack back then. If the Dreadnought and Black Lion classes predate BAR 10 armor, then any aero units smaller than DropShips they'd face would have a damage threshold of 1.
4 AC2s will still crit 70 points of armour. Is more damage per hit worth more than two crit chances?
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I think the League are most likely to get the Essex
I think your probably right on the Defender/Golden Lion combo if There is another class it'll be interesting since Davion, New Syrtis and Robinson are all in already
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Yes. It is interesting.
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It don't have a record sheet, but pretty easy to make up one.
I barely was able to produce one with my old and cranky HMP Aero. When I tried repeat the mircle with Black Lion I, it kept asking me to add fire control, which i never could figure out how to add normaly.
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Wow, you know having original generation of WarShip lingering around and the host nation unable to replace it. Thats like saying we have the original version of the Windows operating system and they can't make any new versions until centuries later if were lucky.
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I barely was able to produce one with my old and cranky HMP Aero. When I tried repeat the mircle with Black Lion I, it kept asking me to add fire control, which i never could figure out how to add normaly.
Have you ever thought about just printing out the blank record sheet from StratOps and filling it in with a pencil? All the necessary info is in the FM and you don't have to reverse engineer the Black Lion I with a programme that may or may not be compatible with the latest rules.
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I expect the Davion's will probably get the Defender and maybe another 'old' unit, and I hope the League (at the very least!) get two new units.
Up to now, we only have a fairly small number of known ships for each nation for prior to the 1st Succession War
CapCon - 1 (Du Shi Wang)
LyrCom - 3 (Tharkad, Mako, Sylvester)
FedSuns - 3.5 (New Syrtis, Robinson, Davion I/Davion II)
FWL - 1 (Atreus)
Dracs - 1.5 (Samarkand I/Samarkand II)
TaurCon - 3 (Winchester, Concordat, Wagon Wheel)
RWR - 2 (Stefan Amaris, Pinto)
From what I'm gathering, the Cappies weren't much of a Naval power, so most of their ships are second-hand vessels mostly from the reasonably peaceful Terran Hegemony. The Lyrans are also not an overly powerful naval nation (even in the post-Clan War era). However, the Free Worlds League IS known to have been a Naval power. As such, I hope the FWL gets 2x new units. Hell, I'd like the FS to get the Essex I, but I'd settle for the Lyrans getting it while the FWL and DC at least get 2x new units to themselves.
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Have you ever thought about just printing out the blank record sheet from StratOps and filling it in with a pencil? All the necessary info is in the FM and you don't have to reverse engineer the Black Lion I with a programme that may or may not be compatible with the latest rules.
I do it so i can play with the design. I admittively don't get to do it often and find HM Aero very frustating.
As for future developments. Bergie has a good list, now that CapCon (& FWL) has the Soyal Class Heavy Cruiser, well...its a Battle Cruiser, CCAF needs a smaller boat for support, dropship aren't going hold up against smaller ships. The Terran Hegemony at the dawn the Age of War, the fluff for the Bonaventure mentions Kurita having a powerful destroyer squadron invading Imbros III. Fluff for the Vigilant says the Capellans used powerful means to take out the squadron of corvettes at Terra Firma in 2401. This was big invasion if you read p.27 original Star League sourcebook. This way before everyone started getting their second-hand WarShips from the Hegemony. Du Shi Wang was around this time, but the ship was suppose to be part of the POWERFUL Capellan fleet if the fluff is to be believed.
It should be pointed out, the new Soyal-Class Heavy Cruiser out weights and out-guns the Du Shi Wang even not counting the Medium Size Mass Driver.
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I expect the Davion's will probably get the Defender and maybe another 'old' unit, and I hope the League (at the very least!) get two new units.
Up to now, we only have a fairly small number of known ships for each nation for prior to the 1st Succession War
CapCon - 1 (Du Shi Wang)
LyrCom - 3 (Tharkad, Mako, Sylvester)
FedSuns - 3.5 (New Syrtis, Robinson, Davion I/Davion II)
FWL - 1 (Atreus)
Dracs - 1.5 (Samarkand I/Samarkand II)
TaurCon - 3 (Winchester, Concordat, Wagon Wheel)
RWR - 2 (Stefan Amaris, Pinto)
From what I'm gathering, the Cappies weren't much of a Naval power, so most of their ships are second-hand vessels mostly from the reasonably peaceful Terran Hegemony. The Lyrans are also not an overly powerful naval nation (even in the post-Clan War era). However, the Free Worlds League IS known to have been a Naval power. As such, I hope the FWL gets 2x new units. Hell, I'd like the FS to get the Essex I, but I'd settle for the Lyrans getting it while the FWL and DC at least get 2x new units to themselves.
You can increase the FedSun number to 4 or even 4.5 IMO. The fluff from TRO 3057r suggests the Congress class was originally at least in part a FedSun design that was illegally copied by a TH company.
I do it so i can play with the design. I admittively don't get to do it often and find HM Aero very frustating.
As for future developments. Bergie has a good list, now that CapCon (& FWL) has the Soyal Class Heavy Cruiser, well...its a Battle Cruiser, CCAF needs a smaller boat for support, dropship aren't going hold up against smaller ships. The Terran Hegemony at the dawn the Age of War, the fluff for the Bonaventure mentions Kurita having a powerful destroyer squadron invading Imbros III. Fluff for the Vigilant says the Capellans used powerful means to take out the squadron of corvettes at Terra Firma in 2401. This was big invasion if you read p.27 original Star League sourcebook. This way before everyone started getting their second-hand WarShips from the Hegemony. Du Shi Wang was around this time, but the ship was suppose to be part of the POWERFUL Capellan fleet if the fluff is to be believed.
It should be pointed out, the new Soyal-Class Heavy Cruiser out weights and out-guns the Du Shi Wang even not counting the Medium Size Mass Driver.
All the more reason why i wish that they'd keep those TA/TH cast-offs to a bare minimum. I hope that the Essex I is the last one we're going to see. IMO the need for some more house-specific ships is more pressing than the desire to stat out the last remaining Terran curiosities. Ideally they would go for at least one faction-specific Age of War era design per Field Manual. That way the FM would also be great resources for those playing in that era.
BTW, i wouldn't put to much thought into the issue of the Soyal being a heavy cruiser and not a battlecruiser. These classifications are mostly name-dropping anyway. It makes you wonder why in the far future they use ship classifications that stem from naval treaties from the 1920s and 30s that were already obsolete by the mid-20th century. ^-^
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Well, we still need Stats for the Riga Class Destroyer/Carrier which evolved into the Clan's York. How different they are is up to debate. Why even rename the class if its same ship? Specially the Clans kept all the Class names, but mostly not the individual names of the old SLDF ships.
On side amusing and odd note. Everytime i see the Soyal's name i keep thinking of that Toby Keith song, Red Solo Cup. Its cool ship, i want blow things up with. :D
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Judging from the fluff in TRO 3057r it seems the Riga-class would simply omit some of the standard scale weaponry and reduce the figher bays somewhat. At least the capital scale weapons and armour were not changed. My guess would be to simply omit all the ER small lasers, change clan standard weapons to their IS counterparts and reduce the fighter capacity to two wings of 18 fighters each. All-in-all nothing that really warrants a full new writeup.
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Judging from the fluff in TRO 3057r it seems the Riga-class would simply omit some of the standard scale weaponry and reduce the figher bays somewhat. At least the capital scale weapons and armour were not changed. My guess would be to simply omit all the ER small lasers, change clan standard weapons to their IS counterparts and reduce the fighter capacity to two wings of 18 fighters each. All-in-all nothing that really warrants a full new writeup.
New armour. Harjel. New computers. Wow, you know having original generation of WarShip lingering around and the host nation unable to replace it. Thats like saying we have the original version of the Windows operating system and they can't make any new versions until centuries later if were lucky.
And that is why we use Unix.
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All the more reason why i wish that they'd keep those TA/TH cast-offs to a bare minimum. I hope that the Essex I is the last one we're going to see. IMO the need for some more house-specific ships is more pressing than the desire to stat out the last remaining Terran curiosities. Ideally they would go for at least one faction-specific Age of War era design per Field Manual. That way the FM would also be great resources for those playing in that era.
Well, with any luck this is being used as an opportunity to flesh out those designs from Strategic Ops - I can't think of a better opportunity to fill them in - which would give us the Commonwealth (Lyran, 2375), League (FWL, 2368), Narukami (Combine, 2380), Defender (FedSuns, 2360) and Athena (MoC, 2569). Although based on how small the MoC navy was in Historical: Reunification War, I'm not expecting to see more than a handful of Athenas. If anything, the CapCon may be luckier than most getting the Soyal, because their first WarShip, the Du Shi Wang, is the only one of those first designs to have been published. That'd be one per FR though, if we're getting one for each Great House and one to cover the Periphery.
Although that does make me wonder what the ships were that Franco Liao used to bombard the capital on Capella in 2366/2367 - if they didn't have a home design until the Du Shi Wang in 2380, I guess it must've been ships that they'd either bought or captured, or ships considered to be warships before the designs we recognise as warships appeared.
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Although that does make me wonder what the ships were that Franco Liao used to bombard the capital on Capella in 2366/2367 - if they didn't have a home design until the Du Shi Wang in 2380, I guess it must've been ships that they'd either bought or captured, or ships considered to be warships before the designs we recognise as warships appeared.
First true WarShip and first vessel capable of planetary bombardment aren't necessarily the same thing. Even limited to naval missiles and naval autocannons, an armed primitive jumpship could still make a serious mess of a planetary target.
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Hell, an shuttle filled with rocks dropped from orbit can be quite effective.
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Just drop the rocks.
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If there time and money to do it, maybe the Age of War suppliment in the time period or Historical by god. Primitive JumpShips could been rigged or created with near WarShip capacities, but marginally. Liao was suppose to have a "powerful" fleet prior to its proud Battleship launching its construction slip for the first time.
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If there time and money to do it, maybe the Age of War suppliment in the time period or Historical by god. Primitive JumpShips could been rigged or created with near WarShip capacities, but marginally. Liao was suppose to have a "powerful" fleet prior to its proud Battleship launching its construction slip for the first time.
Define "powerful". Apparently 30-40 ships is a powerful fleet; not the SLDF scale fleets.
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Define "powerful". Apparently 30-40 ships is a powerful fleet; not the SLDF scale fleets.
You realize were talking about BEFORE there was a SLDF? Age of War's numbers were not quite defined. Plus WarShips were king than, barely any Aerospace fighters, tanks aka Combat Vehicles were the norm. Yet you have ships like Dreadnought and Black Lion I running around, along with Liao and other interstellar power navies blasting each other and planets withouth holding back?
Liao only having single Battleship Class for a fleet seems illogical. Having range of ships, where you use most powerful units like a Battleship in real trouble spots sounds bit more balance.
Anyways, I was more getting around stuff happened BEFORE Dreadnought, hoping there were primitive WarShips using subpar weapons but still didn't feel like spaceshuttles with pea shooters.
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I think you meant "pea"...at least, I hope you did... [blank]
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Wow, you know having original generation of WarShip lingering around and the host nation unable to replace it. Thats like saying we have the original version of the Windows operating system and they can't make any new versions until centuries later if were lucky.
Kinda like the nations feel in the DA but reverse they have the last WarShips and no way to replace
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I think you meant "pea"...at least, I hope you did... [blank]
LoL yeah, i mean "pea". ;D I make way too many typos without realizing it. ;D
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Am I the only one who expects the Lyran Commonwealth to have 16 Battleships with .5G max thrust and a single Aegis class as a scout ship?
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They turn out twenty six 900,000 ton battlecruisers before the first succession war. Does that count?
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Personally I think the SLDF was kicking themselves in the posterior when they had to retake Terra and could of sorely used the Soyal class cruisers and had to go up against all those automated defenses. They could of easily crushed the stations controlling them and made it a lot easier on themselves.
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Personally I think the SLDF was kicking themselves in the posterior when they had to retake Terra and could of sorely used the Soyal class cruisers and had to go up against all those automated defenses. They could of easily crushed the stations controlling them and made it a lot easier on themselves.
A Soyal would be marinated and pre-tenderized meat against a Pavise. Even a group of them would take horrendous losses against a single such station, as it has normal capital bays that easily outrange the mass driver, are more accurate at said ranges, and the Pavise mounts far more such bays even in a single arc than a Soyal has mass drivers. You want to take out one of those stations without incurring ACW-level casualties, you use capmissiles bearings-launched from beyond direct weapons range. Or enough fighters to make the Battle of Endor look like a back-country air show.
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Or enough fighters to make the Battle of Endor look like a back-country air show.
Now that line's a keeper!
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New armour. Harjel. New computers.
Armour and weapons ere explicitly stated to be retained from the Riga although i guess the usual weight recalculation because of the different tech base would apply. Except for the fighter scale weaponry the rest seems completely in line with the other updates the clans performed on their SL-vintage WarShips. Makes you wonder whether there were other major yet unmentioned differences between the Riga and the Yorck which made the name change necessary.
BTW, upon re-reading the section about the first WarShips in StatOps i stumbled over a very interesting paragraph (emphasis mine):
At the height of the original Star League, national aerospace forces operated on the scale of armies, assigned not only as DropShip escorts and air-to-ground support for ’Mech forces, but also as the first line of defense for the mighty WarShips. WarShips themselves were common, with each member state claiming hundreds of these massive dreadnaughts that acted as combat vessels and a key element in strategic supply chains.
I only wish they had remembered that part when they decided on the sizes of the member states' fleets. [drool]
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I only wish they had remembered that part when they decided on the sizes of the member states' fleets. [drool]
You and me both, friend.
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Am I the only one who expects the Lyran Commonwealth to have 16 Battleships with .5G max thrust and a single Aegis class as a scout ship?
You mean the Aegis ISN'T a scout?
Side note, the LC did create the Mako, one of the lightest and the fastes WarShips ever!
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Side note, the LC did create the Mako, one of the lightest and the fastes WarShips ever!
Yes, but they were trying to design an ASF.
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You mean the Aegis ISN'T a scout?
Side note, the LC did create the Mako, one of the lightest and the fastest WarShips ever!
An more powerful than alot units for its time too. I keep forgetting about the Mako. Why in world the SLDF or the RWR would only 100 each...thing a murder machine in WarShip terms incomparison to other corvettes.
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Yes, but they were trying to design an ASF.
ROTFLMAO!!!!
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Yes, but they were trying to design an ASF.
"Introducing the Defiance 'Midge' Compact Car, Only 6 1/2 Tons! (2 MPG Highway/.5 MPG City)"
Nah, but seriously, I can see the Lyrans having a huge but obsolete fleet, because they once had a great navy but then decided mid-way through the Star League era that they didn't feel like paying the taxes to support it. Too bad, if anyone was going to build the SDF-1 in the BT universe it was them.
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You mean the Aegis ISN'T a scout?
Side note, the LC did create the Mako, one of the lightest and the fastes WarShips ever!
A small fast warship built by a house believes on bigger is better.
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You know, I am surprised that no one has picked up on just how heavy the CCAF fleet is. 15 DDs or less vs 22 capital ships.
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Yeah, they're definitely top-heavy.
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I think only problem i have about trying to gauge the way fleets are, is how heck their suppose to engage one another and tell the tale.
World War II clashes, had ships lost and number of them damaged. During the times prior to the Reunification War to actual dawn of the first Succession War...did they (the Inner Sphere powers) actually clash with each other squadrons of WarShips or have some kind of encounters? In AT2R/Strag Ops, Clashes in those rules (aside from the advanced ones with ECM and bracket fires etc) WarShips don't last long against one another. A single WarShip might well be a capital ship in comparison to a squadron of DropShips of the past time periods.
I'm keep hoping some of the older Primitive JumpShips were converted into Repair Tenders or something. It seems kind off balance that the Star League was only ones who had YardShips.
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Just because we don't have stats for them doesn't mean that the Houses didn't have some Yardships. We know that the Clans produced Mobile yards of an unrevealed class, with dozens of them floating around the Homeworlds at the time of the Wars of Reaving.
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Just because we don't have stats for them doesn't mean that the Houses didn't have some Yardships. We know that the Clans produced Mobile yards of an unrevealed class, with dozens of them floating around the Homeworlds at the time of the Wars of Reaving.
I quite understand what your saying, I agree. However it be nice they mention them in canon text somewhere. Some people don't buy it unless they see it in black & white print sometimes.
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During the times prior to the Reunification War to actual dawn of the first Succession War...did they (the Inner Sphere powers) actually clash with each other squadrons of WarShips or have some kind of encounters?
Yes. See the Hidden Wars.
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I'm keep hoping some of the older Primitive JumpShips were converted into Repair Tenders or something. It seems kind off balance that the Star League was only ones who had YardShips.
I don't know how much yard ships would be really needed. The House navies are small and the fixed infrastructure plentiful. It is not like the Houses ever operated in less developed areas without SLDF support.
For a real life example, consider the difference between the US and UK in the WWII Pacific. Coming from the sparse east the US needed temporary support facilities. Coming from the west the UK had long term harbours all the way to Hong Kong. Both navies planned accordingly. And even then the US expected to be operating out fixed bases on the Philippines and had three floating dry docks in 1941. Of course events kicked everyone in the teeth.
As for tenders, we know such DropShips existed and we have examples from the 3060s of WarShips parking and building their own scaffolding around themselves. We also know SLDF WarShips (and probably everyone else) was capable of seemingly major operations like rebarrelling NACs as they carried spares in the field.
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If did note the strange ratio of cruisers and capitals to escorts, but I just thought that was the way it was done. I take it that this isn't the case then? When I red 3057, it just seemed that the old joke "I kills it with my battleships" was entirely accurate, and if the TH/SL had that sort of throw weight, then the houses would as well, otherwise there was never going to be any real truth to the concept that any single house, or even two houses, were overpowered by the League, but if they all opted to turn on the League, the League was in real trouble.
Past of this stems from the feeling I get that the heavies of the universe, Heavy Cruiser on up, are notably better off in a multiple to one engagement when facing the lighter DD, FF and CVT class ships. Is this not actually the case, and should it be something to be concerned about for the players that do actually play (and unlike me, truly understand) the warship aspect of the game?
As for the topic at hand, I don't give a rat's behind if it sucks, the Soyal is a rocking awesome concept done right, and one that Weirdo has every right to be proud of the results. Its a wonder blend of "HOLY CRAP!" and "Hmm...this...has issues...", making it spot on really.
I also note that I clearly don't understand the numbers of regimental numbers and origins in universe nearly so well as I thought. When I was reading the various lancer, charger, dragoon and similar regiments about, my eyes started to glaze over!
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The CCAF might be top heavy with some big ships, but take away the mass drivers of the big ships and not a lot of firepower on a large part of the fleet.
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The CCAF might be top heavy with some big ships, but take away the mass drivers of the big ships and not a lot of firepower on a large part of the fleet.
That's kinda like saying that the Clans of Kerensky might be powerful, but don't have much firepower if you take away their 'Mechs. The Soyal-class is such an integral part of Capellan fleet strategy that I really don't understand any attempt to look at their navy without them.
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That's kinda like saying that the Clans of Kerensky might be powerful, but don't have much firepower if you take away their 'Mechs. The Soyal-class is such an integral part of Capellan fleet strategy that I really don't understand any attempt to look at their navy without them.
I know the Soyal was a big part of the fleet. Not discounting that. But what would you rather want 10 S. Soyuz or 10 McKennas in your fleet.
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Be careful of your reliance on Cruiser A, because would you rather have Cruiser B or Battleship C in your fleet.
...you lost me completely. What do SovSoys or Mckennas have to do with Soyals? Especially since the Capellans have access to neither?
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A more interesting question would be more Soyals vs. more Du Shi Wangs.
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I see the two as working well together. Du Shi Wangs actually have enough armor to charge into the midst of an enemy fleet and wreck shop, their main weakness is their limited and fixed-forward firepower. Even with the Mass Driver taking up so much room, Soyals are much more flexible and have longer engagement ranges than any Dooshie. Sending the battleship on in to try and put that big PPC bay where it can do the most good is obviously risky, but you can alleviate much of that risk if you have a Soyal or two hanging back and covering its flanks with missile and NGR fire. Extremely inefficient compared to sending a single SL battleship to do the same job, but since the Confederation has no ships equivalent to a League BB, you have to make do with what you have.
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You know, I am surprised that no one has picked up on just how heavy the CCAF fleet is. 15 DDs or less vs 22 capital ships.
Technically, they're all Capital ships. The blue water navy descriptions don't really apply IMO. It's it can handle Capital weapons, then it's a capital ship.
I'm sure you already know this, but blue water navy capitals had immunity to most smaller guns (and some torpedo immunity) due to their armoring. Due to the hit point system battletech uses for combat, that doesn't apply even for warships. The only thing left is weapons capability.
There's no real difference between a destroyer and a battleship than size, not even really role determining capability or lack thereof.
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It's it can handle Capital weapons, then it's a capital ship.
There's no real difference between a destroyer and a battleship than size, not even really role determining capability or lack thereof.
Interesting definition. I personally use expendability. That said, this probably isn't the place for this discussion. At least until we see more House fleets and can make comparisons.
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If did note the strange ratio of cruisers and capitals to escorts, but I just thought that was the way it was done. I take it that this isn't the case then? When I red 3057, it just seemed that the old joke "I kills it with my battleships" was entirely accurate, and if the TH/SL had that sort of throw weight, then the houses would as well, otherwise there was never going to be any real truth to the concept that any single house, or even two houses, were overpowered by the League, but if they all opted to turn on the League, the League was in real trouble.
Past of this stems from the feeling I get that the heavies of the universe, Heavy Cruiser on up, are notably better off in a multiple to one engagement when facing the lighter DD, FF and CVT class ships. Is this not actually the case, and should it be something to be concerned about for the players that do actually play (and unlike me, truly understand) the warship aspect of the game?
As for the topic at hand, I don't give a rat's behind if it sucks, the Soyal is a rocking awesome concept done right, and one that Weirdo has every right to be proud of the results. Its a wonder blend of "HOLY CRAP!" and "Hmm...this...has issues...", making it spot on really.
I also note that I clearly don't understand the numbers of regimental numbers and origins in universe nearly so well as I thought. When I was reading the various lancer, charger, dragoon and similar regiments about, my eyes started to glaze over!
Ratio is partial to due to CGL limitations in put out units that are by large and large hand made due and in a genre as far i can tell isn't making them moola for game that focas on giant robotic combat vehicles aka BattleMechs. I would like see more balance fleet for each great house. However, there not much we can do about it. :/
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I expect the Davion's will probably get the Defender and maybe another 'old' unit, and I hope the League (at the very least!) get two new units.
Up to now, we only have a fairly small number of known ships for each nation for prior to the 1st Succession War
CapCon - 1 (Du Shi Wang)
LyrCom - 3 (Tharkad, Mako, Sylvester)
FedSuns - 3.5 (New Syrtis, Robinson, Davion I/Davion II)
FWL - 1 (Atreus)
Dracs - 1.5 (Samarkand I/Samarkand II)
TaurCon - 3 (Winchester, Concordat, Wagon Wheel)
RWR - 2 (Stefan Amaris, Pinto)
Using your list, I have modified it with the information released from the Reunification War, Liberation of Terra, Volume I, Combat Operations, and FM2765 CapCon:
Capellan Confederation - 10 (Du Shi Wang, Black Lion, Soyal, Aegis, Baron, Carson, Lola I, Essex I, Vincent, Vigilant)
Lyran Commonwealth - 5 (Tharkad, Aegis, Mako, Sylvester, Vigilant)
Federated Suns - 8 (New Syrtis, Robinson, Aegis, Congress, Davion I/Davion II, Baron, Vigilant)
Free Worlds League - 5 (Atreus, Soyal, Aegis, Baron, Vigilant - the FWL also bought the Soyal)
Draconis Combine - 5 (Samarkand I/Samarkand II, Aegis, Baron, Vigilant)
Taurian Concordat - 5 (Winchester, Dart, Concordat, Wagon Wheel, Pinto)
Magistracy of Canopus - 3 (Concordat, Dart, Pinto)
Rim Worlds Republic - 17 (Stefan Amaris, Dart, Pinto + every obsolete Hegemony/Star League warship class - First Lord Richard Cameron sold 200 obsolete and mothballed warships to his good friend Stefan Amaris so add Aegis, Avatar, Baron, Black Lion I, Bonaventure, Carson, Lola I, Lola II, Farragut, Monsoon, Quixote, Riga, Vigilant, and Vincent to the Rim Worlds Navy)
This is the total for ship classes that we know so far.
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Other Ships to be seen:
LyrCom - Commonwealth-class
FWL - League-class
DracCon - Narukami-class
FedSuns - Defender-class
MagCon - Athena-class
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Other Ships to be seen:
LyrCom - Commonwealth-class
FWL - League-class
DracCon - Narukami-class
FedSuns - Defender-class
MagCon - Athena-class
On top of that, we have the Essex (block I) and maybe the Riga Destroyer/Carrier. I can't remember what ship i'm forgetting.
The review in this article for the Narukami, makes it sounds like the ship is compariable to the Avatar...possibly a crusier class.
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The review in this article for the Narukami, makes it sounds like the ship is compariable to the Avatar...possibly a crusier class.
What article?
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Other Ships to be seen:
LyrCom - Commonwealth-class
FWL - League-class
DracCon - Narukami-class
FedSuns - Defender-class
MagCon - Athena-class
Looks like some good stuff coming out. Can't wait till these getting added into the fleet.
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What article?
Here: Soyal Class ship review (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,34939.msg815334.html#msg815334).
They mentioned the Narukami in the review when it author was doing it in the comparison. I misremembered the article, he mentioned that Soyal would need to avoid ships such as Narukami and Davion II. I was wrong it suggesting the Narukami being compared to a cruiser, but to a destroyer possibly.
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On top of that, we have the Essex (block I) and maybe the Riga Destroyer/Carrier. I can't remember what ship i'm forgetting.
The review in this article for the Narukami, makes it sounds like the ship is compariable to the Avatar...possibly a crusier class.
As a rule a 24thC ship (Narukami) won't beat an equivalent 26thC ship (Avatar). However a 24thC battleship could be equivalent to a 26thC destroyer. See Black Lion I. All speculation is still open and valid.
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As a rule a 24thC ship (Narukami) won't beat an equivalent 26thC ship (Avatar). However a 24thC battleship could be equivalent to a 26thC destroyer. See Black Lion I. All speculation is still open and valid.
Sorry, Jellico. I didn't realize Field Report 2765: Draconis Combine came out this very nite.
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Well so it has.
You have permission to board the hype train :D
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So the Combine had more ships than the Togura hidden in Mothball but they were as useless as the mothballed Carrier.
Field Report Draconis Combine is out!!
Being a WarShip thread here we go with the two ships in it:
The Narukami-class Destroyer looks pretty cool block I and block II shame about the technical problems
The Cruiser-class Cruiser... got to love committees. I love the look of the ship. For once instead of something that looks really sexy it's just plain and simple to the point "Beercan Battleship" or "Killer Space Keg" is what the class should have been called. I'm not an expert on WarShips but if I was facing this particular one I'd want Anti-Missile Systems.
One thing I hadn't noticed was numbers of ships - 8 active fleets based around the Samarkand-class Carrier but no real numbers from my first run through
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42 ships divided into 8 fleets plus a pair of Vincents to escort one of the Hussars regiments,
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Looks like the committee missed the Dart, she older but she alot better than the Cruiser. Wow. Dart should been the Heavy cruiser, to the Cruiser being...a cruiser.. Well, early missile cruiser isn't so bad until you realize your missing way among of modern equipment. Cruiser's build with tonnage of a Destroyer, through she was built two decades after the Dart start crowding the spaceways since 2305. With lack of Docking collars, that Cruiser is lacking in comparison, making me suspect that there properly a early version of the Dart lurking about in forgottenville. TRO3057R shows the Dart packing 6 Docking collars.
Fluff for the Cruiser reveals the Athena is infact a cruiser at least. Big leg up for the Periphery.
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Forgot one thing the hint that the Draconis Combine had something a lot more deadly in bombardment than the Soyal wasn't kidding... nukes on a Cruiser >:D
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Forgot one thing the hint that the Draconis Combine had something a lot more deadly in bombardment than the Soyal wasn't kidding... nukes on a Cruiser >:D
I wonder if a squadron of 6 of the Cruisers are nicknamed a six pack! ;D
I wonder why McKenna decided not pack those sardine cans with nuclear warheads. It certainly would solved alot of clustering of fighters attacking their Warship fleet.
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I wonder if a squadron of 6 of the Cruisers are nicknamed a six pack! ;D
This just won the Internet!!
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I'm surprised the Combine didn't just duplicate there Narukami-class when they were developing there warship fleet in the 3050's and 3060's. They could have used the surviving examples as a blueprint for new warships to be built.
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They could have used the surviving examples as a blueprint for new warships to be built.
I think they did. Note the similarities between the Narukami's and Tatsumaki's maintenance woes...
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I think they did. Note the similarities between the Narukami's and Tatsumaki's maintenance woes...
Tatsumaki, Kirishima, and Inazuma all share features of the Narukami.
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So, presuming it works, what is the Narukami- class like? Big guns, fighters, spoil!
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So, presuming it works, what is the Narukami- class like? Big guns, fighters, spoil!
It’s a hair lighter than a Lola, but has 25-50% more armour across all facings (forward biased, of course) and develops 5/8 speed(!). The nose and fore-quarters favour NPPCs, both flanks mount a mix of NAC turrets, and the PC is very dense in all arcs — a mix of LLs and MLs in the Block I, with LLs and PPCs in the Block II. The parasite complement is less than a full wing, but three drop-collars can make up for that. All in all, it’s a pretty solid sort of ship, and the artwork is very nice too. The DCA could have done a lot worse. O0
The Cruiser-class cruiser is pretty nice, too. ;) The name is clearly the product of bureaucracy-in-inaction (probably retaining a placeholder as a proper name), but then, the Terran Alliance(!) wasn’t known for being overly imaginative; the aesthetics are awesome in a form-over-function kind of way (one of the class nicknames was “Beer-can Battleship”); and the armament... makes sense. Unfortunately, McKenna was reluctant to let his commanders freely use tac-nukes, so it never became the monster it might otherwise have been.
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Guns. Oh Boy, Guns. 228 Broadside on a Destroyer. Decent Armor.
And Trace. Remember, Drac Wings IIRC are 36 Birds, so its roughly a Squadron, not a Wing. Not sure when they switched to that, but the text implies it is as of now. Given they describe the Samarkand carrying two Wings. Which is incorrect terminology for SLDF or FedSuns.
The big question I have is, rules wise... how does the DropShuttle Bay on the Cruiser work.
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Drop shuttle bay?
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Drop shuttle bay?
It predates DropCollars so has to launch em like small craft from cargo bay
My bet is its just like small craft launching
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Cruiser: DropShuttle Bay is exactly what Dragon Cat said, its what ships were using prior to Drop Ship collars. I have problem with it, since there was no need for them to be on Cruiser. DropShip Collars were well in use by 2305, when the larger Dart Light Cruiser appeared, with no less 6 of them.
That's why I was so confused why the DropShuttle Bay was included in the design that was finally buit in decades after Dreadnought, Black Lion I and Dart came cruising out. The ship is light for a Cruiser, it has virtually no point defense weaponry (no machine guns or standard autocannons.) If this was design held up prior to revolution of the Dreadnought, this must been a rush to build for War of Persuasion. DropShuttle Bay sounds like left over equipment or old manufactures trying to hang in a industry that clearly is out date.
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Cruiser: DropShuttle Bay is exactly what Dragon Cat said, its what ships were using prior to Drop Ship collars. I have problem with it, since there was no need for them to be on Cruiser. DropShip Collars were well in use by 2305, when the larger Dart Light Cruiser appeared, with no less 6 of them.
That's why I was so confused why the DropShuttle Bay was included in the design that was finally buit in decades after Dreadnought, Black Lion I and Dart came cruising out. The ship is light for a Cruiser, it has virtually no point defense weaponry (no machine guns or standard autocannons.) If this was design held up prior to revolution of the Dreadnought, this must been a rush to build for War of Persuasion. DropShuttle Bay sounds like left over equipment or old manufactures trying to hang in a industry that clearly is out date.
Maybe it's symptomatic of the kind of thinking that drove WarShip designs for the SLDF - no need for the Cruiser to have that kind of kit if it's constantly operating as a part of squadrons all the time, and hence no need for it to be an all-rounder?
Alternatively, how big a threat were small ships and fighters to WarShips at this point?
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Awesome the book is out, download later.
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Cruiser: DropShuttle Bay is exactly what Dragon Cat said, its what ships were using prior to Drop Ship collars. I have problem with it, since there was no need for them to be on Cruiser. DropShip Collars were well in use by 2305, when the larger Dart Light Cruiser appeared, with no less 6 of them.
That's why I was so confused why the DropShuttle Bay was included in the design that was finally buit in decades after Dreadnought, Black Lion I and Dart came cruising out. The ship is light for a Cruiser, it has virtually no point defense weaponry (no machine guns or standard autocannons.) If this was design held up prior to revolution of the Dreadnought, this must been a rush to build for War of Persuasion. DropShuttle Bay sounds like left over equipment or old manufactures trying to hang in a industry that clearly is out date.
Assume the Dart may not represent its earliest form. Interstellar Operations Alternate Eras preview indicates the docking collar with KF boom wasn't invented until 2304, but didn't supplant the earlier bays until 2400. I could, however, see stragglers after that.
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I have to say that I love the Pony Keg. It reminds me of the Norway, Europe, Australia, Atlantic, North Pole, Libya, Africa, India, Tibet, and the Pacific. The Mazianni are now in the Battletech universe. O0 O0
The only bad thing about the report is that it does not give an exact breakdown of how many ships the DCA has per class. If you add in the 6 Aegis Class Cruisers given to the Draconis Combine at the beginning of the Star League, there are still a lot of blanks that have to be filled in. :-[ :-[
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The only bad thing about the report is that it does not give an exact breakdown of how many ships the DCA has per class. If you add in the 6 Aegis Class Cruisers given to the Draconis Combine at the beginning of the Star League, there are still a lot of blanks that have to be filled in. :-[ :-[
Yeah, I noticed that too. An otherwise awesome product, but I was REALLY hoping to see the pattern begun by FR: CCAF continue. Hopefuly the other PDFs will go back to CCAF's model.
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I wish it had a better fleet list like the CC book.
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Maybe they'll give us one if we ask? It worked for FR: FWL's WarShip list...
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Well, thing i have problem is the if the Cruiser Class is precruer to the Dreadnought that wasn't built. Why go ahead and produce them, thing came into service 20 years after the modern warship came into service with DropShip Collars. Really odd.
Funny thing about the Cruiser, it reminds me of the Earthling (missile) cruise (http://starships.wikia.com/wiki/Earthling_Cruiser?file=Earthcruiser.jpg)r from Star Control weapons wise. Slow, main weapons wih missiles. All it needs lasers instead of the autocannons and image is complete. (except it wasn't a tin-can shape.)
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I would imagine (having not yet seen the vessel in question) that it was a cheap, quickly built alternative. Darts with them collars (assuming it's not a later refit) would be inherently more expensive to build than a ship without them. Large dropshuttle launch bays give your burgeoning space navy transportation without the added expense of these newfangled toys.
Also I suspect one of the biggest advantages of the docking collar (their much higher mass limit) isn't that big of a deal this early on. Nobody's building the really big dropships yet.
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Ever get the feeling that maybe the Hegemony Navy was experimenting wildly during this time period, and was still trying to get a handle on all this new technology, as well as developing a standard doctrine out of it?
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The Narukami Block 2 would be even better if they increased the armor with the upgrade in armor, and put some extra heat sinks in the ship too.
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Ever get the feeling that maybe the Hegemony Navy was experimenting wildly during this time period, and was still trying to get a handle on all this new technology, as well as developing a standard doctrine out of it?
That's something a lot of players have trouble with, I think. For us, the rules are rules and we always know exactly how it's going to work (including any potential downsides). It makes it difficult to get across that in universe folks don't have the same advantage.
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So, when are we seeing a mini for the "Cruiser"? [notworthy] Perhaps it could be put back into production as a Mark II. O0
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Take an Urbanmech and mount it on a flight stand. 8)
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I think it has already assumed the role as the Urbanmech of the Stars. :P
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I would imagine (having not yet seen the vessel in question) that it was a cheap, quickly built alternative. Darts with them collars (assuming it's not a later refit) would be inherently more expensive to build than a ship without them. Large dropshuttle launch bays give your burgeoning space navy transportation without the added expense of these newfangled toys.
Also I suspect one of the biggest advantages of the docking collar (their much higher mass limit) isn't that big of a deal this early on. Nobody's building the really big dropships yet.
Yeah, this would be a big thing-- perhaps something like the Hi-Lo mix the United States ?Navy was considering in the 1970s-- you have your mainline ships, but you also have a larger number of less expensive ships for day to day work.
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Too bad they couldn't think of a better name for the Cruiser class.
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Too bad they couldn't think of a better name for the Cruiser class.
Actually, I think that makes it all the more hilariously awesome.
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Too bad they couldn't think of a better name for the Cruiser class.
The Cruiser-class cruiser was named Cruiser because Cruiser was given in the Star League SB. Cruiser. Very ob-vi-ous, yes? Cruiser.
The art turned out better than I hoped. Cruiser. I was imagining a bit more of the cover art of "Antares Dawn" and "Antares Passage," but you can't really borrow art from other settings and Plog's art is really growing on me. Cruiser. That is fugly, just like the fluff said. Cruiser.
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Cray frowns upon traveling back in time in the canon 'verse, ISP2 aside.
I wrote StratOps' discussion of time travel to specifically deny ISP2's claims. :)
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The Cruiser-class cruiser was named Cruiser because Cruiser was given in the Star League SB. Cruiser. Very ob-vi-ous, yes? Cruiser.
Son of a gun, it does say Cruiser class, don't it?
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Cruiser: DropShuttle Bay is exactly what Dragon Cat said, its what ships were using prior to Drop Ship collars. I have problem with it, since there was no need for them to be on Cruiser.
I interpreted "cruiser" in ye olden sense: a ship assigned to long-ranged cruising and independent action. The Cruiser-class cruiser (cruiser cruiser) is able to do just that. The Cruiser has hundreds of steerage-class quarters for troops (e.g., two infantry battalions), almost 100,000 tons of cargo (e.g., lots of vehicles, if you're not in a hurry), and a DropShuttle bay to land the Righteous Fury of the Terran Alliance on Separatist colonies, at least the bits of Separatist colonies that weren't nuked from orbit, just to be sure. Obviously, the first ship in the class would be named Sulaco.
As it happened, McKenna largely copied a late-22nd Century design and used it for an entirely different purpose that didn't need DropShuttle bays and was left a bit silly for lack of nukes, but that's the Navy for you.
DropShip Collars were well in use by 2305, when the larger Dart Light Cruiser appeared, with no less 6 of them.
Which is a continuity issue for the docking collars (which were established to be common first in the 2400s as long ago as DropShips & JumpShips), but partly addressed by the shortage of proper DropShips in the 2300s.
Admittedly, I did anticipate the Cruiser as being introduced in 2300AD alongside the Dreadnought, but I see those words didn't quite make it to print. The HMA file I submitted was left set as 3025AD. :-[
The ship is light for a Cruiser, it has virtually no point defense weaponry (no machine guns or standard autocannons.)
With capital missiles (no penalty against fighters) and bracket-firing banks of naval autocannons (easy to get -3 to hit with 6 guns in a weapon bay, and get decent to-hit numbers way outside of fighters' weapon ranges) it doesn't need much in the way of standard autocannons. MGs don't do much unless you mount them in large groups, and even then they're only a threat against one weapon bay of missiles per turn per MG bay. A ship like, say, a Cruiser that distributes capital missiles into small weapon bays won't be bothered unless you're carrying ridiculous quantities of MGs.
I mean, something had to inspire the entire SLDF WarShip fleet to skip secondary weapons, right? :)
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Maybe they'll give us one if we ask? It worked for FR: FWL's WarShip list...
Huh?
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A 10,000 ton carry bay for the Cruiser class ship is a good size, all the way up to a Overload or 4 -leopard Dropship sized ships.
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Huh?
FR: FWLM (The Jihad-era one) originally had no info on the fleets of the former FWL states. They were errataed in about a day later.
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A 10,000 ton carry bay for the Cruiser class ship is a good size, all the way up to a Overload or 4 -leopard Dropship sized ships.
Of course the question is: can it carry ships while under thrust, and if so, how quickly can they be deployed. That's a biggie-- somethign like an overlord would not be a good thing to have break loose while the ship was under thrust. But if you have it all nicely webbed up, what happens if it needs to be launched *now*.
(my personal bet is that these cargo based bays can't carry a ship under thrust and the bay designs that can pay a very high mass penalty (they'd be reinforced repair bays), which gives another explination why nobody thought about bringing dropshuttles back).
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I could see drop shuttle bays comming back, just becuase it's pretty easy to pick off a Dropship when it's carried on the back of a ship in a battle. Better way to protect the invasion force if you keep it inside away from damage,
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I could see drop shuttle bays comming back, just becuase it's pretty easy to pick off a Dropship when it's carried on the back of a ship in a battle. Better way to protect the invasion force if you keep it inside away from damage,
If it works while under thrust.
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Oh also-- the Samarkand carrier? Love the fact that most of them were sold to the SLDF which means you might find some floating about somewhere.
I have four most loved shiops: the Dreadnought, Concordat, New Syrtis and Samarkand.
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We know little to nothing about DropShuttles. For all we know, they have a low maximum size, and kicking them out might take as much time as offloading bulk cargo through a door.
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(my personal bet is that these cargo based bays can't carry a ship under thrust
Canon notes that originally DropShuttles were carried into planetary orbit by JumpShips, while JumpShips made the jump point-to-planet transit. It was later that shuttles evolved to be carried externally and make the transit to a planet while JumpShips were streamlined to the bare minimum jump core.
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By the way, is it just me, or does the Cruiser remind you of an oversize Fox class?
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By the way, is it just me, or does the Cruiser remind you of an oversize Fox class?
Not nearly just you jumped at me to armament, overall shape
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The Cruiser class looks lied a Fox but it also looks like lots of dropships too.
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I actually like th4e cruiser. With some changes it'd be a good patrol ship-- not something intended to engage in a line of battle fight, but more along the line of something to shoo off raiders and provide police assistence.
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Thanks you for answering the big question on Cruiser, cray.
I thought the machines guns were able shot down missiles if they were launched a ship if they were point defense. I was just baffeled the lack of ams of any sort since the missile must have been the big guns of the Navies prior to Dreadnought.
Copy of a 22nd Design.....hmmm. Hope we get a variant of that design! ^-^
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I thought the machines guns were able shot down missiles if they were launched a ship if they were point defense.
Machine guns can serve as anti-missile point defense, but there's a world of difference between a generic "point defense weapon" (like MGs and small lasers) and a true anti-missile system.
A normal point defense weapons bay can engage missiles from one (1) weapons bay per turn, and only to defend the ship that mounts the point defense bay. If the Cruiser fired its 6 forward capital missile bays at a ship with one MG weapons bay, the target could engage one of the 6 flights of missiles leaving 5 others not bothered. When you face a swarm of fighters or multiple attackers, normal PD bays don't mean much.
An AMS point defense bay (on a large craft) can engage any missile volley in range in one turn, no matter what the target of the missiles is.
I was just baffeled the lack of ams of any sort since the missile must have been the big guns of the Navies prior to Dreadnought.
There was also the point of canon. Despite recent retcons, WarShips weren't really demonstrated as carrying standard weapons until the 31st Century and early Inner Sphere prototype WarShips. The entirety of the SLDF and Clan WarShips made do without point defense until relatively recently.
Copy of a 22nd Design.....hmmm. Hope we get a variant of that design! ^-^
Change the munitions to be a little more nuclear. The 22nd Century version never left CAD drawings, though. The Separatists disappeared with a whimper, so the WarShips never got built.
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I was just baffeled the lack of ams of any sort since the missile must have been the big guns of the Navies prior to Dreadnought.
Don't forget NACs. They first debuted around 2200. The Dreadnought, presumably, was just bigger, meaner, and packed a true compact core KF drive, which allowed it to have a higher mass fraction for payload while still going twice as far per jump.
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I adore everything naval about this Field Report. The Cruiser is gorgeous. The Narukami is sexy.
Anybody else notice there's a non-primitive Star Dagger hidden in there? It actually looks fairly impressive considering its origins.
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The Narukami is a nice ships, make a refit with some more heat sinks and armor it would be a pretty good warship.
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The Narukami is a nice ships, make a refit with some more heat sinks and armor it would be a pretty good warship.
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The Narukami is a nice ships, make a refit with some more heat sinks and armor it would be a pretty good warship.
??? Provide a munchkin ship and they are still not happy.
In destroyer land only the York, Davion II, and Whirlwind (Clan) carry more armour. Narukamis have typically 25% more than contemporary SLDF ships.
There are HS for a full broadside. Use some optional rules and you can squeeze out more. I know some people love diving into melees with their WarShips but it is rarely smart. Besides DC ships aren't known for their high heat tolerance.
In BV terms the Narukamis sit somewhere between a Monsoon and an Avatar. That's the movement points kicking in. My own point system rates the Narukamis between the Dart and Davion II. It is the king of all destroyers despite its age. A pair are enough to take on any cruiser. Those big 70 point bays mean a single Narukami against a contemporary Aegis would be frighteningly close.
Pushing the design further would be hard to justify in the existing universe.
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Is it possible were not really seeing these ship's potentials because alot of us don't have opporunity to actual get to use these things that often? :(
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Yes and no. the Narukami is as subtle as a brick. The trickiest thing about it is the 70 point bays meaning a single hit will nearly kill a SLDF destroyer, while it will get crit hits against anything short of a Leviathan II. At the same time it is deceptively fragile.
OTOH the Cruiser is more of a thinking man's ship. The missiles lack firepower, but they have more creative rule options. For example, bow on the Cruiser can put 10 missile bays on target.
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Or of course, keep the range up best you can and lob missiles on bearings only at them from outside non-missile range.
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I adore everything naval about this Field Report. The Cruiser is gorgeous. The Narukami is sexy.
Anybody else notice there's a non-primitive Star Dagger hidden in there? It actually looks fairly impressive considering its origins.
You just made me look at the RATs, Liam’s Ghost, and... wait, there it is, in a footnote. Hmmm... that is fairly decent, isn’t it? }:)
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Makes a pretty good predecessor to the Sholagar.
(or makes the Sholagar pilots miss their old birds when their new ones start crashing into each other)
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OTOH the Cruiser is more of a thinking man's ship. The missiles lack firepower, but they have more creative rule options. For example, bow on the Cruiser can put 10 missile bays on target.
With one of those rule options, pre-programmed waypoints, you can get 14 missile bays on target. There might not be giant, messy holes in the target, but death-by-crits starts to look more feasible at the capital scale.
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Which ironically makes the Cruiser, one of the oldest warhsips we've seen, more viable in the "modern" era. the concept of a missle boat, one that *stays far away* from the enemy and salvoes missile after missle, especially if you have screening forces, works much better than wading in with your big guns and getting equally big holes blown in your ship.
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Maybe. Evasion makes targeting solutions difficult. Way Point attacks require guessing where the enemy will be. You need those Barracuda -2s to make the hit, and Barracudas only crit on 11s.
Also in the case of the Cruiser, 10 round magazines mean you can't maintain this kind of battery for long without resorting to reloading operations which have all sorts of explosive penalties.
This leads into the whole WarShip CV vs DropShip CV argument. Some of us feel that the SLDF WarShips like the McKenna rarely had to fire their guns at all. Instead acting as supply depots for Titans and their ilk with DD support. When they did fire they were well equipped to bracket and fight at 40hexs plus.
I suppose the question for +50 hex fighting, is it worth using missiles or more effective to send an ASF out?
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Which ironically makes the Cruiser, one of the oldest warhsips we've seen, more viable in the "modern" era. the concept of a missle boat, one that *stays far away* from the enemy and salvoes missile after missle, especially if you have screening forces, works much better than wading in with your big guns and getting equally big holes blown in your ship.
That's noted in the text: the Cruiser was designed by people with no experience in space warfare drawing on lessons from the early 21st Century, like the Second Soviet Civil War. As a result, it looks "modern."
Maybe. Evasion makes targeting solutions difficult. Way Point attacks require guessing where the enemy will be.
Waypoint launches allow a missile to make a single hex-face change within the first 3 hexes of their launch. It essentially allows a weapons bay to bend into another arc. These should be no guessing involved, since it's a 1-turn attack.
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Opps. Mixing Bearings-Only and Way Point launches.
How are you getting all 14 missile bays on target? The aft bays will need more than two hex turns to get into the correct arc.
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It's bulky as all hell and unlikely to ever happen, but if you combine waypoint and bearings-only shots, there is a small area right next to the firing ship where you could fire most of the bays normally in one fore-side direction, fire the aft and opposite broadside bays as close to that direction as you can, and their detection arcs would overlap. Of course, pulling off such a salvo requires getting a LOT closer than most Cruiser COs would like.
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How are you getting all 14 missile bays on target? The aft bays will need more than two hex turns to get into the correct arc.
I think I miscounted missile tubes for bays. :)
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An AMS point defense bay (on a large craft) can engage any missile volley in range in one turn, no matter what the target of the missiles is.
There was also the point of canon. Despite recent retcons, WarShips weren't really demonstrated as carrying standard weapons until the 31st Century and early Inner Sphere prototype WarShips. The entirety of the SLDF and Clan WarShips made do without point defense until relatively recently.
Change the munitions to be a little more nuclear. The 22nd Century version never left CAD drawings, though. The Separatists disappeared with a whimper, so the WarShips never got built.
Considering the rules for AMS I personally would retcon every single canon SLDF WarShip with a ton of AMS. It's never made much sense to me that neither WarShips, their DropShips or Small Craft carried AMS in early eras. I know there was tons of them and the SLDF thought nothing of losing a couple of ships but AMS made perfect sense if I was on the ships, in the fleet, an Admiral or a member of the general public I'd be screaming for AMS on WarShips and DropShips
It would have probably made for more tactical battles instead of the slugging matches I always get the impression the SLDF had. The WarShips of the SLDF almost engage each other like ships of the 18th century get in a line blast the crap out of the enemy until one side retreats or is destroyed.
<<< Not nearly an expert just an opinion
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I suspect that Jellico may have the right of it: SLDF WarShips, at least their largest vessels, may never have gotten close enough to their enemies for that to have ever been an issue, with assault and carrier DropShips extending their reach, screens of destroyers and corvettes encountering the enemy well before the cruisers and battleships ever get to range, and fighter screens doing a large part of the work.
Consider a McKenna by itself for a moment: with six docking collars, it could take two aerospace regiments of 54 fighters each, plus six dual-role carrier/assault DropShips in the form of Titans, plus its own 40 aerospace fighters, forming a considerable combat force, without ever bringing its own guns into the mix. Let them soften up the enemy, focusing on opposing ships with capital missiles, then send in the battleship.
Now, multiply that by four, for a four-battleship "squadron". Throw in its escorts, such as a destroyer or four per battleship. Maybe add a cruiser or frigate or two.
Now, consider the Narumaki has no capital missiles, nor did the Atreus or Du Shi Wang, or Davion, Robinson or Samarkand. The Winchester only had 6 Barracudas. The Wagon Wheel is a notable exception with a dozen White Sharks, as is the Tharkad.
In all, I think the Member States may have needed AMS far more than the Terrans.
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so the SLDF limited the spread of Capital Missiles so they didn't have to develop ships with AMS?
I really like the WarShip concept I've just never understood why they didn't have a lot more defences. I know the initial WarShip concepts were so far removed from game play it's almost funny (they were myths of the past long forgotten) but as designs have gone on and it's quite obvious that the modern designs are built for the current rules with weapons for every occasion.
You look back at what could arguably be classed as the Golden Age of WarShips the Star League-era where everyone had a prized fleet and find that they have few if any defences it's just really strange to me. Each of the member state ships (modern designed for the past) have secondary armaments.
Now I'm pretty sure the argument for that in universe is the SLDF has hundreds of ships they can afford to take a couple of losses while the member states have far smaller fleets and need the protect themselves with anything and everything they have. That I could almost accept but the question would be why the SLDF cared so little about losing ships and didn't at least in some cases match the member states with special models of their ships.
I'd have really liked "Royal" versions of the SLDF's fleet that wasn't how many guns can we fit on this hull but something that kept true to the class but also brought it along almost like a modern design for the past like the member states get. Maybe just me I really should stop I don't want to completely derail this thread sorry
Erm.... :-\ ah yes Field Manual Draconis Combine where were we :P
EDIT: even if you discount the SLDF completely jump into the First Succession War where member states have the old designs and the newer designs the battles look like they are going to be slug fests forget your McKennas look at an old Baron taking on a Davion II or a Tharkad running amok against old SLDF designs. Wonder if any of the states modded any of the old SLDF designs - that could be fun see how much they messed them up.
it sure explains why the WarShip fleets didn't survive.
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Now I'm pretty sure the argument for that in universe is the SLDF has hundreds of ships they can afford to take a couple of losses while the member states have far smaller fleets and need the protect themselves with anything and everything they have. That I could almost accept but the question would be why the SLDF cared so little about losing ships and didn't at least in some cases match the member states with special models of their ships.
It's not that they could afford to replace losses such defenses would prevent, it's that they didn't NEED the defenses. Star League ships operated in far larger squadrons than House ships did, to say nothing of the solo operations post-Clan WarShips must udertake. They had plenty of fighter and DropShip support, plus the bracketing equations that made their capital guns perfectly suitable for usage against smaller craft. The occasionaly missile hit will happen, but a SLN commander that screws up so badly that a sizable missile or fighter strike actually gets to his ships is likely to be brought up on charges, the least of which will be gross incompetence.
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SLDF cared so little about losing ships and didn't at least in some cases match the member states with special models of their ships.
Assuming five 40 ship fleets we have 200 House ships.
The SLDF has 280 McKennas.
Is that a match?
You really need to get beyond 1:1 match ups and look at the systems as a whole.
As a rule the Houses have small fleets built around short range combat. Even when they do have ASF they are weaker older models. Look at the Hellcat II on the DCMS and CCAF RAT. Now check FM:SLDF. The Hellcat II and its Active Probe of doom is as common as hell. A House ship fighting the SLDF is doing so without ECM and without bracketing. If it gets through the ASF screen in the first place.
I have play tested this repeatedly. Even with Achilles support a Davion II gets smashed by a Lola III in these conditions.
Food for thought.
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I see Weirdo and Jellico have already replied, but that's OK, since my book took a while to write in reply:
so the SLDF limited the spread of Capital Missiles so they didn't have to develop ships with AMS?
More like the effectiveness of capital missiles in a non-nuclear environment is such that there are far better alternatives out there, specifically naval autocannons, naval energy weapons and aerospace fighters. And, if you're unlikely to be facing large numbers of capital missile, tying up massive amounts of fire control and personnel for AMS batteries isn't as useful as some of the alternatives
I really like the WarShip concept I've just never understood why they didn't have a lot more defences. I know the initial WarShip concepts were so far removed from game play it's almost funny (they were myths of the past long forgotten) but as designs have gone on and it's quite obvious that the modern designs are built for the current rules with weapons for every occasion.
Yes and no.
Some of the designs you're seeing, especially the early Terran Hegemony designs, were thought up in-universe during an era when space warfare was new, no one was quite sure what a real space battle would look like and, as a result, experimented heavily.
House ships have almost always been about getting as much bang for their buck out of individual hulls as possible. Even then, the results of SLDF vs. House ships can be surprising, like Jellico's old test run of a Lola III vs. Davion II that he posted after Strat Ops shipped, where the Lola III, on paper the weaker ship, handily won.
I always had the impression that SLDF WarShips were designed with two ideas in mind: streamlining for *massive* construction runs, and supporting the SLDF's vast military.
You look back at what could arguably be classed as the Golden Age of WarShips the Star League-era where everyone had a prized fleet and find that they have few if any defences it's just really strange to me. Each of the member state ships (modern designed for the past) have secondary armaments.
In other words, the Member States have never, ever changed the essence of how they design WarShips. They build knowing they can never produce the number of hulls they actually need and, as a result, try to get the most bang for their buck from each hull, trying to fulfill as many use cases as possible.
Also, secondary armament is often not that useful on a WarShips. Case in point: would you rather have a gauss rifle with two tons of ammo in each of your WarShips's arcs, or, alternatively, a pair of LPLs, each doing 2 points of capital damage...or would you rather have a fighter bay? Personally, I think the fighter will be more useful most of the time.
And, by the same token, ignoring cost (which, really, isn't that much of an issue on a WarShip), would you rather have seven aerospace fighters, or a docking collar that allows you to carry a Vengeance class?
Now I'm pretty sure the argument for that in universe is the SLDF has hundreds of ships they can afford to take a couple of losses while the member states have far smaller fleets and need the protect themselves with anything and everything they have. That I could almost accept but the question would be why the SLDF cared so little about losing ships and didn't at least in some cases match the member states with special models of their ships.
The SLDF ships are often far more potent than their specs immediately reflect. The Lola III, with its bracketing NAC bays, is an example of this, giving it far more accuracy at range than its competitors.
I'd have really liked "Royal" versions of the SLDF's fleet that wasn't how many guns can we fit on this hull but something that kept true to the class but also brought it along almost like a modern design for the past like the member states get. Maybe just me I really should stop I don't want to completely derail this thread sorry
Royal SLDF WarShips? Yeah, that's not going to happen, for a variety of reasons.
Erm.... :-\ ah yes Field Manual Draconis Combine where were we :P
EDIT: even if you discount the SLDF completely jump into the First Succession War where member states have the old designs and the newer designs the battles look like they are going to be slug fests forget your McKennas look at an old Baron taking on a Davion II or a Tharkad running amok against old SLDF designs. Wonder if any of the states modded any of the old SLDF designs - that could be fun see how much they messed them up.
it sure explains why the WarShip fleets didn't survive.
Once you throw nukes into the mix, all bets are off. Just look at the Jihad.
What do we see after the Jihad? Pocket WarShips, vessels you can send into combat and lose without the crippling replacement costs of a WarShips. Massive increases in the use of anti-missile systems, to fend off nuclear-tipped capital missiles. Fighters and small craft designed to boost point defense, by adding more AMS batteries that can target those missiles.
Setting aside out-of-character arguments that WarShips take away from Battletech's focus on ground combat, post-Jihad, everyone realized that, unless you can build enough WarShips to really count, and can afford to lose them, you're better off building what you *can* afford to lose, and what you *can* build in number.
Should we see new WarShips built in the post-Dark Age era, you'll likely see some of these lessons taken to heart: expect to see things like Naval C3, or mass batteries of AMS, or more consideration to anti-fighter defenses (though, as I mentioned above, the best defense is more fighters).
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I hate drift into if there future for WarShips in battletech. I'm big time naval fan, still think dropships are very poor substitute for a WarShip no matter how you stretch it. Future of Warship are bleak. I'm getting enjoyment having additional designs coming out for perhaps the final time.
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Drifting back on Aerospace side of the report itself. DCA, has 8 fleets with total of 42 Warships (H:LoTv1) in total active(?) service as of 2765. The DCA section of the book suggests the fleet is light weight, but not to be misjudged. Narumaki is pretty nasty customer if used correctly, but i can't imagine them winning big fleet battle their suppose to fight when the first Succession War breaks out unless the FedSuns has Admiral version of Lyran Social General. Whatever the Defender is suppose to be or the Golden Lion (if there one in the same), FedSuns has the arguably most filled out fleet/balance(?) feet of the Great Houses in comparsion to others. Though they have a destroyer, medium carrier navy verses the DCA's Light WarShips fleet built around their Escort Carriers.
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DCA structure is odd another way: with 42 total vessels, two of which are permanently assigned to one unit, the remaining 40 ships are then split up into eight squadrons of five ships each, one of which we know to be a Samarkand. The remaining four ships per squadron? No one ship class is present in all of them.
Did we ever get a count on the number of Aegis given to the Combine?
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There were thirty Aegis class ships distributed among the houses, I suspect six ships for the Combine is a fair guess.
I noticed there's a couple of mentions of ships being mothballed (the Narukami in particular) due to maintenance problems. I wonder how strong the DCA might have been able to become if an emergency led to their reactivation.
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Drifting back on Aerospace side of the report itself. DCA, has 8 fleets with total of 42 Warships (H:LoTv1) in total active(?) service as of 2765. The DCA section of the book suggests the fleet is light weight, but not to be misjudged. Narumaki is pretty nasty customer if used correctly, but i can't imagine them winning big fleet battle their suppose to fight when the first Succession War breaks out unless the FedSuns has Admiral version of Lyran Social General. Whatever the Defender is suppose to be or the Golden Lion (if there one in the same), FedSuns has the arguably most filled out fleet/balance(?) feet of the Great Houses in comparsion to others. Though they have a destroyer, medium carrier navy verses the DCA's Light WarShips fleet built around their Escort Carriers.
As noted the DCA is one of the few fleets to run true carriers.
And as Trace can assert, their traditional fighters are stronger than most.
So you are looking at a doctrine of light forces and fighters to overwhelm a faction with a more heavy unit focus. (I assume the Fed Suns here based on what we know of their class mix. There weren't that many New Syrtis in service after the Reunification War. And that war, and the next one. And the one after that. And the Civil War. And the Jihad. And Palyra suggest a theme of a certain level of competence.)
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Well, as soon as the FSN realizes that WarShips aren't expendable munitions you ram into other ships...
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Well, as soon as the FSN realizes that WarShips aren't expendable munitions you ram into other ships...
Or ordinance for orbital bombardment.
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Hmm. The Combine has another border. Seem to have forgotten about it for some reason.
Same basic problem. Only 20 Tharkads built.
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I thought it was 26 (sorry, splitting hairs)
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Once you throw nukes into the mix, all bets are off. Just look at the Jihad.
What do we see after the Jihad? Pocket WarShips, vessels you can send into combat and lose without the crippling replacement costs of a WarShips. Massive increases in the use of anti-missile systems, to fend off nuclear-tipped capital missiles. Fighters and small craft designed to boost point defense, by adding more AMS batteries that can target those missiles.
Setting aside out-of-character arguments that WarShips take away from Battletech's focus on ground combat, post-Jihad, everyone realized that, unless you can build enough WarShips to really count, and can afford to lose them, you're better off building what you *can* afford to lose, and what you *can* build in number.
This-- it's important to remember that BIG nuke is likely to mission kill just about anythign it hits. That means you not only need huge nubers of defending units but an ability to replace those units.
But I'd make a point-- warships weren't killed by nukes hitting them. Warships were killed by nukes hitting thier ports, parts factories etc. We now have two canonical cases where a power--during the succession wars, mothballed functioning ships. The LYrans with the Tharkad and the DC with their destroyers. It's a bit Ironic, but until the PTB give us nuclear dampers, which wont' happen, warships work far better in a limited war.
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This-- it's important to remember that BIG nuke is likely to mission kill just about anythign it hits. That means you not only need huge nubers of defending units but an ability to replace those units.
So which was the faction with defence in depth with combat DropShips, ASF, and stupidly cheap destroyers?
The following is a very relevant instructional video on how to deal with nukes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4)
This is an environment where the threat is less capital missiles, than the Alamo under the wing of every fighter over 50 tons. Your AMS defences will fail eventually.
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Are there rules aside from the Jihad books, that allows a player to use Naval Nukes?
A Cruiser, like Quintex Class Frigate after yet. Can be nasty customer if missile's warheads are actually nuclear.
Not saying i'd use barracuda to take out a spesky Lightning fighter buzzing around, but if there squadron of WarShips a foot or squadron of assault dropships coming. Firing one nuke to take out four seems to be ammunition saving experience to me.
Specially if your operating during the Age of War when AMS hasn't really been effectively put in place as standard equipment..
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Try Reunifications War for rules.
Given how the SLDF was routinely throwing nukes at Castle Brians in Klondike I have minimal qualms as using 100% nuclear capital missiles as AA.
But we have heard how nukes come in and out of favour.
Not saying i'd use barracuda to take out a spesky Lightning fighter buzzing around, but if there squadron of WarShips a foot or squadron of assault dropships coming. Firing one nuke to take out four seems to be ammunition saving experience to me.
Nukes aren't area effect weapons. They require contact to kill. Really they are just big capital weapons. A Type II (Alamo)does 10 capital and only crits on a 10+. A Type III (Santa Anna) does 100 and crits on 9+. Even a Naga will survive that most of the time. A Type IV (Peacemaker) is the only really consistently fatal one with 1000 points of damage.
A crit delivers 10 x damage direct to the structural integrity. So a Type II will do 100 capital damage to the SI. No halving. Potentially very fatal... if it gets lucky.
So quite survivable. Put another way a Leopard can take multiple Type IIs.
The main problem is the Electromagnetic Interference which effectively puts +2 on targeting for anyone in the hex at the time for the remainder of the scenario. But of course at that point opening the throttles and getting some open space is advisable anyway.
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Try Reunifications War for rules.
Given how the SLDF was routinely throwing nukes at Castle Brians in Klondike I have minimal qualms as using 100% nuclear capital missiles as AA.
But we have heard how nukes come in and out of favour.
Nukes aren't area effect weapons. They require contact to kill. Really they are just big capital weapons. A Type II (Alamo)does 10 capital and only crits on a 10+. A Type III (Santa Anna) does 100 and crits on 9+. Even a Naga will survive that most of the time. A Type IV (Peacemaker) is the only really consistently fatal one with 1000 points of damage.
A crit delivers 10 x damage direct to the structural integrity. So a Type II will do 100 capital damage to the SI. No halving. Potentially very fatal... if it gets lucky.
So quite survivable. Put another way a Leopard can take multiple Type IIs.
The main problem is the Electromagnetic Interference which effectively puts +2 on targeting for anyone in the hex at the time for the remainder of the scenario. But of course at that point opening the throttles and getting some open space is advisable anyway.
Whaa. I guess that's away to keep things get broken. But kinda makes the nukes into basically crit seeker weapons verses with no worries of thresholds. They should be AOEs, or least have some sort of effect beyond the ECMs. Cruiser won't be truly be able to clear out area if the nukes were that toothless in comparison how they work in irl. That would be a reason why they would be band or reluctively be used even in space I would think.
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...nukes were that toothless in comparison how they work in irl.
You mean how they work in atmosphere. The reason nuclear weapons are area effect weapons is that there's an atmosphere to carry their shockwave. You shoot one in space, there's little to no atmosphere or any other medium for the shockwave to travel through(just like sound), so it dissipates very quickly, the energy instead going into radiation and light, things that can travel through empty space. As a result, the detonation has to be in physical contact or extremely close to the target to do raw damage.
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That's one of the things the Honorverse got right, too: most missiles there are x-ray lasers because true nukes, while highly damaging, have to make actual contact with the hull, something difficult to do.
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Time for X-Ray Pump Bombs in Battletech. ;)
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Isn't there an Era Report that describes even the classic LL as a graser? Woulnd't surprie me if NLs are bomb-pumped...
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Isn't there an Era Report that describes even the classic LL as a graser? Woulnd't surprie me if NLs are bomb-pumped...
Not that I'm aware of. And NACs are basically bomb-pumped.
Time for X-Ray Pump Bombs in Battletech. ;)
No. Just...no.
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Found it. Era Report 2750, page 99. Large Lasers are grasers. O0
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They should be AOEs
Sure, in an atmosphere, underwater, or underground, where there's a lot of matter to turn their energy into a shockwave. In a vacuum, you've only got a few dozen or hundred kilograms of bomb mass to work with (unless you get close to the target and can heat the target sufficiently). That makes nukes pretty toothless in space, but for their x-ray and neutron radiation.
The thing is, BT spacecraft aren't bothered by the big electrical surges from the x-ray pulse of a nuke, and they have near-magical radiation shielding. The only thing left is brute damage, which nukes do poorly in a vacuum. They're much more effective when they can superheat millions of tons of atmosphere, creating an explosion to smash objects within a few kilometers. Meanwhile, the scale of space combat (18km/hex) means that anything less than several gigatons isn't going to have an area of effect.
if the nukes were that toothless in comparison how they work in irl.
No. BattleTech's nuclear weapons were modeled very carefully on real life nuclear weapons, down to borrowing Cold War equations for primary and secondary effect radii and their vacuum behavior.
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Whaa. I guess that's away to keep things get broken. But kinda makes the nukes into basically crit seeker weapons verses with no worries of thresholds. They should be AOEs, or least have some sort of effect beyond the ECMs. Cruiser won't be truly be able to clear out area if the nukes were that toothless in comparison how they work in irl. That would be a reason why they would be band or reluctively be used even in space I would think.
Also, being pedantic, a Cruiser is not a great nuke boat simply because we have no Barracuda mounted nuke. Only White Shark and Killer Whale.
Santa Annas make suitable squadron busters. Kill a fighter and blind the rest. Unfortunately I find you need Barracudas to target fighters outside 25 hexes.
Also, note how popular White Sharks are in Hegemony Ships. The Avatar screams to mind.
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The IO alternate eras pre-beta offers the Ahab nuclear warhead for the Barracuda. A particularly high yield weapon at that.
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Ooo...what's the damage spread?
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Well, it's got a yield of 150 kilotons, so it's got three times the damage capacity of a Santa Anna against a capital ship. It's also a purely spaceborn weapon, so all you can use it for is ship to ship or ship to surface fire.
Ooh, there's also the hilariously named Asset Management Weapon listed in there, developed by the Mariks for the first war. It also fits on a Barracuda but can only be used for bombardment. Probably a good thing, because its yield is 3 megatons.
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Ooo...what's the damage spread?
Well, it's got a yield of 150 kilotons, so it's got three times the damage capacity of a Santa Anna against a capital ship. It's also a purely spaceborn weapon, so all you can use it for is ship to ship or ship to surface fire.
So...what's the damage spread? :)
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Can you target sub-200 ton units with Alamos?
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So...what's the damage spread? :)
30,000 points of damage at ground zero with a damage degradation of 226 points per ground hex and a secondary effect radius of 266 hexes for the Ahab.
The asset management weapon inflicts 600,000 points of damage at ground zero and has a damage degradation of 1662 points per hex, and a secondary effect radius of 722 ground hexes.
But above a certain yield isn't better to just say everything dies?
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Can you target sub-200 ton units with Alamos?
You know, I see no rules against it.
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I'm looking for the space damage. How much damage do these warheads do to starships, either on the near hit or the crit?
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Ahab is 300 (8+).
AMW? 6000... if you were to actually hit a Warship with it. It can't target Warships. It can't do anything but orbital bombardment and it only needs 1 Capital worth of AMS to kill it between it and target.
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Damn, 300 without the crit? That won't pop a battleship in one shot, but it'll definitely mess one up, and do horrific things to anything smaller. :o
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20 Tharkhad for the LC fleet, seems like a huge fleet numbers compared to the fleets of 2765.
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Might not be all that huge, if they don't have much else. Might be naught else but a handful of Makos, a few Aegii, and the odd Terran castoff.
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That was how many were built total. Good odds some of those were built in the gap between 2765 and the Exodus.
And Lyrans had 62 Warships in 2765. Two thus far... are the weakest Naval Powers in 2765. FWL has 47, FedSuns 51, Lyrans 62.
Even if every single Tharkad was in service (All 28 of them) in 2765.. the Lyrans would still have another 34 Warships.
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You know, it's been so long since I shepherded the RATS for 2765 that I completely forgot we put some Easter Eggs into it. Yeah, enjoy the Star Dagger. Anyone notice the ASF Egg in CCAF?
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I did, yeah. Looking forward to some FotW addendums. 8)
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I did, yeah. Looking forward to some FotW addendums. 8)
Umm, my memory may be failing, but don't you not count. I could have sworn you were on the RAT project.
So many volunteers, so much senility, I can't keep track...
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I don't remember having anything to do with the FRs past the ships. Mighta seen the RATs in some factchecking material, but, well...you know my memory.
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I don't remember having anything to do with the FRs past the ships. Mighta seen the RATs in some factchecking material, but, well...you know my memory.
Who are you?
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I DON'T KNOW!!! :'(
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Damn, 300 without the crit? That won't pop a battleship in one shot, but it'll definitely mess one up, and do horrific things to anything smaller. :o
The Peacemaker under the Interstellar Ops preview also has the Type IV nuke, aka the Peacemaker. Carried on a Killer Whale, it's a 500 kt nuke, doing 1000 capital damage, and crits on an 8+ roll. And, yes, it can be fired ship-to-ship.
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Might not be all that huge, if they don't have much else. Might be naught else but a handful of Makos, a few Aegii, and the odd Terran castoff.
Also note that the description specifically said it had 6 docking collars to work as a "one ship tasksforce " (or similar wording). That indicates that it's possible that the Lyrans didn't have much in the way of warships to escort it.
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BTW, on the internal dropshuttle bay things, I wuld like more rules for them-- because they could be very useful.
IE, how about a ship that has a 12K dropshuttle bay, with 12, 1K assault droppers? Being qable to field a full squadron of combat droppers would be very unpleasant for the other guy.
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Also note that the description specifically said it had 6 docking collars to work as a "one ship tasksforce " (or similar wording). That indicates that it's possible that the Lyrans didn't have much in the way of warships to escort it.
I'd half expect the Lyrans to have a decent fleet with the Rim Worlds over border
Only problem is the Lyran lack of shipyards Alarion jumps out but I really don't know much about Lyran industry back then - or any of the others if honest :-[
I can think of
Alarion - Lyran
Kathil - FedSun
New Syrtis - FedSun
Galax - FedSun
New Avalon - FedSun (I think nuked 1st SW could be a fan idea)
Loyalty - FWL
Away from books so not sure of any more
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I'd half expect the Lyrans to have a decent fleet with the Rim Worlds over border
Only problem is the Lyran lack of shipyards Alarion jumps out but I really don't know much about Lyran industry back then - or any of the others if honest :-[
I can think of
Alarion - Lyran
Kathil - FedSun
New Syrtis - FedSun
Galax - FedSun
New Avalon - FedSun (I think nuked 1st SW could be a fan idea)
Loyalty - FWL
Away from books so not sure of any more
There are a bunch mentioned in various books -
In the FWL the House Marik SB says the FWL had major ship builders at Oriente, Angell and Stewart. They had the SelaSys yard at Lotalty, Technicron at Tamarind and Irian Tech at Clipperton
The LC had in addition to several shipyards at Alarion,, Gibbs (Ioto/Ditron), possibly Hesperus II - the orbital shipyards were destroyed in the 1st SW, Bolson Shipyards at New Kyoto, Bolson-Tamar shipyards at Tamar, Clippership Yards - location unknown but it is said in the original Lyran SB to be one of the few LC shipyards to have survived the 1st SW.
The Fed Suns had Shipyards at Delavan (universal air), Kathil, New Avalon (New Avalon shiyards -destroyed 1st SW), it is possible New Sytris Shipyards built jumpships or warships in 2765- the source material is vague, Panpour (challenge systems -TR3057 says the factory was at Galax, other sources say Panpour, to me Panpour makes more sense)
The Combine had shipyards at Chatham (Stellar Trek), Luthien - destroyed 2787 by the Tamar Tigers, and Schuyler (Dharma Hyperspace)
The Capellans had shipyards at Aldebaran (Drydocks destroyed 2785), possibly Asuncion, Capella (Delhi/Rashpur-Owens), St Ives (Hildco)
The list above is not necessarily every shipyard in the IS- these are just the ones that have either been explicitly mentioned or can be inferred from various sourcebooks.
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I believe in 2765 the Lyran world of Dell had a major shipyards which was moved to Alarion.
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I know I'm late into this, But I've liked what I read so far in both of the FR 2765's & the thread, 1 thing I would love to see are 'official / canon' record sheets for the 'new' designs mentioned in the RAT's in both FR 2765's the S-2 Star Dagger in FR 2765 DCMS & the 2 (upgrades) mentioned in FR 2765 CCAF TR-5 Thursh & TR-9 Transit . And I hope we see more of these upgrades in the other not yet published FR 2765's.
Dave.
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Also, being pedantic, a Cruiser is not a great nuke boat simply because we have no Barracuda mounted nuke. Only White Shark and Killer Whale.
That's only within the strictest limits of the rules. Any capital missile has more than enough payload space to carry the largest (currently) available nukes, since their standard warheads are "multi-ton kinetic warheads."
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I know I'm late into this, But I've liked what I read so far in both of the FR 2765's & the thread, 1 thing I would love to see are 'official / canon' record sheets for the 'new' designs mentioned in the RAT's in both FR 2765's the S-2 Star Dagger in FR 2765 DCMS & the 2 (upgrades) mentioned in FR 2765 CCAF TR-5 Thursh & TR-9 Transit . And I hope we see more of these upgrades in the other not yet published FR 2765's.
Dave.
Finding I can't reproduce the S-2B. Actually.
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BTW, on the internal dropshuttle bay things, I wuld like more rules for them-- because they could be very useful.
IE, how about a ship that has a 12K dropshuttle bay, with 12, 1K assault droppers? Being qable to field a full squadron of combat droppers would be very unpleasant for the other guy.
Interstellar Operations is where we planned to publish this. Of course until it is published, it's not published.
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Finding I can't reproduce the S-2B. Actually.
I got to reproduce the S-2B Star Dagger to the "stats" given in the RATs by up the speed to 10 / 15 and using the other given "stats" from the RATs & converting the S-2 Star Dagger from XTRO Retro, this is why I want canon Record Sheets for stuff like this :-\ .
Dave.
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That's only within the strictest limits of the rules. Any capital missile has more than enough payload space to carry the largest (currently) available nukes, since their standard warheads are "multi-ton kinetic warheads."
And even then, they all get some fun options eventually, according to the IO Preview up on the site.
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I got to reproduce the S-2B Star Dagger to the "stats" given in the RATs by up the speed to 10 / 15 and using the other given "stats" from the RATs & converting the S-2 Star Dagger from XTRO Retro, this is why I want canon Record Sheets for stuff like this :-\ .
Dave.
I did that. Left with 10/15, 2 Medium Lasers, 3 MGs, Ton of MG Ammo, 5 Tons Fuel, 34/22/18... and half a ton left over.
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I just wanted to but in for a moment and say how much I like seeing the warships getting some love. New (old) warships in the TRO's, some introductory rules for primitives in the Interstellar Ops preview, Pocket Warships in the newer eras ... it's all good.
Now let me use nuclear ammunition in my Long Tom cannon (the direct fire version) to get rid f those pesky aerospace squadrons once and for all.
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I did that. Left with 10/15, 2 Medium Lasers, 3 MGs, Ton of MG Ammo, 5 Tons Fuel, 34/22/18... and half a ton left over.
Post this in the errata thread, we'll look into it.
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Will do a quick overview of it again. I did the specs up in HMA. But HMA is accurate enough for Introtech-grade Fighters, even today, last I checked.
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I did that. Left with 10/15, 2 Medium Lasers, 3 MGs, Ton of MG Ammo, 5 Tons Fuel, 34/22/18... and half a ton left over.
Very strange :-\ I have all that but no left over weight I'll recheck.
Dave.
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Yeah. Now I did it again... it seems to be fine. Maybe it was a glitch from redoing the MG mount a few times.
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Nothing beats pencil and paper for construction of the simple units.
I've found numerous problems with HM these days, so have learned never to rely on it completely. Good program to noodle in, you still need to confirm it through another means.