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BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Akalabeth on 05 March 2014, 15:44:00
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War of Reaving Spoilers.
Now I've not read the whole thing, every time I pick up this book (Wars of Reaving) I get fed up and have to put it down.
But from what I understand:
Star Adders bombard York from Orbit
Star Adders bombard Albion or some other city from orbit as well.
Then few months later.
Someone calls for Reaving against Steel Vipers. The Blood Spirits vote no
Someone calls for Annihilation vs Steel Vipers. The Blood Spirits vote no again
Then the blood spirits attack the vipers alongside the Adders and lose a bunch of mechs from ground fire? Why?
After what the Adders have done, one has to wonder why the Blood Spirits would be in the same room with them let alone attacking the Vipers when they've voted no not once but twice. They vote no out of principle yet where are those same principles when the trial begins and they're fighting alongside their hated enemies anyway?
Or even earlier on the Blood Spirits attack the Fire Mandrills, Matilla-Carrol I think, one of their very few allied clans at least historically.
And previously I've also mentioned that the Cloud Cobras are supposed to be "allies" to the Blood Spirits but continually screw them over anyway.
Whole story just strikes me as dumb because the clans act completely contrary to what one would think their motivations would be.
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Its been a while since I dug through this book so I had to consult it to find some useful tidbits of information.
The Blood Spirits bombarded Albion as well, leveling two cities (page 123). Albion was a mess. At least a 3 way Clan fight, plus Dark Caste/Society stuff actively happening on the ground, armed lower castemen in total uprising. The Cloud Cobras bombarded it, then the Blood Spirits did. In fact the Blood Spirits regarded the Albion operation as a success by mid 3073 (page 133).
The Spirits then moved on Tokasha and seized a large part of that important world. They were working to secure the rest of it when the Steel Vipers showed up and were surprised to fight them there. So the Blood Spirits were forced to fight the Vipers for the planet.
When the Steel Vipers attacked Tokasha it was a bloodbath for the Spirits. The Vipers refused to take any bondsmen or allow the Spirits to surrender. They wiped out three Spirit galaxies. IlKhan Andrews killed Boques in a Circle of Equals. Then IlKhan Andrews went on to declare the other Clans and their enclaves on Tokasha to be tainted, he had the warriors of those other Clans watching the Circle of Equals executed, then did the same with lower castemen in those other enclaves (possessed by the Horses and the Scorpions I think).
I read this and it makes me wonder if Spirit hatred of the Vipers grew exponentially overnight as a result of these events. Did the Blood Spirits hate the Adders? Sure. Did they eventually come to hate the Steel Vipers more? Now that's the question and I suspect the answer may be yes. And the Spirits later had the chance to do something about it and join in the anti-Viper feeding frenzy.
Its also important to note that the Blood Spirit leadership actually changed hands in the middle of all of this. With new (or in this case, returning) leadership, comes new perspectives, new strategy and new policy as to how things will be done at the Clan leadership level.
As for a call of Reaving or Annihilation against the Steel Vipers, I can't find any other vote or call for a vote in the book except the one that finally brought the Steel Vipers down and got them killed. I can't find a reference to an earlier vote, let alone the Spirits voting against it. I'm not saying its not there, I'm just not finding it.
In general, I read the Blood Spirits' actions during this period as an attempt to seize on the chaos, and with the HPGs down they decided not to wait for potential allies, they moved fast and tried to do it alone. In normal times, the Blood Spirits would have had difficulty securing a lot more territory, especially important worlds like Tokasha. But when the Homeworlds went into a state of chaos, they apparently went on the offensive and tried to grab all that they could, even from potential allies like the surviving Fire Mandrills whose long term survival prospects were shaky at best. I think the Blood Spirits hoped that by the time the chaos settled, their Clan would be at a historic high in terms of territory and resources and already digging in to keep it. Ultimately this effort cost the Spirits too much, especially on Tokasha. And they earned the mutual hatred of at least most of their fellow Clans by arming lower castemen, which seems to have made events like the bombardment of York justifiable in the eyes of everyone on the Grand Council.
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I wouldn't bother looking too deeply into why the individual Clans' motivations during the Wars of Reaving being inconsistent with their pre-Jihad motivations as storyline consistency took a backseat to needing to achieve a pre-established end result.
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I wouldn't bother looking too deeply into why the individual Clans' motivations during the Wars of Reaving being inconsistent with their pre-Jihad motivations as storyline consistency took a backseat to needing to achieve a pre-established end result.
This is very true.
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I wouldn't bother looking too deeply into why the individual Clans' motivations during the Wars of Reaving being inconsistent with their pre-Jihad motivations as storyline consistency took a backseat to needing to achieve a pre-established end result.
Yeah but attacking the vipers was even inconsistent with the same information on the same page. Open annihilation vs the vipers, Blood Spirits vote against both motions but still participate. Bizarre.
Open doesn't normally mean mandatory .
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It was a first-ever open Annihilation. The Adders, very pragmatically, didn't want to go it alone, but knew it must be done. I have no idea why the Blood Spirits joined in on the attack, other than acting as a Clan together with other Clans, even if they hated one of them, and disagreed with the votes.
But on the other hand, the Cobra/Blood Spirit correspondence and alliance as detailed in FM: Updates was said to be of relatively minor nature, other than being their first contact with each other in ages. The timing seems suspicious to me, that the Cobras would not be above "allying" the Blood Spirits only to quietly sell the Blood Spirits out to their allies, the Star Adders. That would be very Cobra of them, IlKhan Khatib approves.
Not everyone reads things the same way, but I felt it made sense even before the WoR.
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They actually brought McKenna's Pride out of retirement for the Viper annihilation. Every Clan got in on it. It was not a typical Trial of Annihilation by any measuring stick.
I still think the Spirits had a score to settle here. Khan Troy Boques and 3 galaxies of warriors and whole Spirit enclaves were wiped out using what the Spirits considered Dezgra tactics and guidelines ("take no bondsmen, leave none alive") on Tokasha not long before this. The Viper intervention also robbed the Spirits of a heavy presence on that important manufacturing world after they had fought and bled to take it. This whole affair hadn't long ended by the annihilation, it was fresh on their minds. One way to read these events is this, "The Vipers robbed the Blood Spirits of their destiny to become one of the leading lights in the Homeworlds". That deserves payback.
Blood for Blood.
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I wouldn't bother looking too deeply into why the individual Clans' motivations during the Wars of Reaving being inconsistent with their pre-Jihad motivations as storyline consistency took a backseat to needing to achieve a pre-established end result.
Which clan just randomly did something out of character for no good reason? There was plenty of previous canon to support the changes several clans went through.
The end game was somewhat predestined. However, every single remaining clan on each side of the blockade is a strong clan and all have histories of rational decision making and solid leadership. The clans that survived make sense and how they survived also works fine.
The Spirits voted against the Viper Annihilation for one reason, the Adders proposed it. They voted against every single Adder motion wholesale. Why is that hard to figure out?
As for why they fought in the Annihilation, it seems they hoped that working with the rest of th clans would help them. Why they chose to fight so recklessly I do not know. Maybe they hoped if they went all rage on them and won they would earn respect. It was not a smart play.
In a massive war of all factions it makes plenty of sense that the smallest and weakest faction would lose if it chose to go it alone.
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Which clan just randomly did something out of character for no good reason? There was plenty of previous canon to support the changes several clans went through.
The end game was somewhat predestined. However, every single remaining clan on each side of the blockade is a strong clan and all have histories of rational decision making and solid leadership. The clans that survived make sense and how they survived also works fine.
The Spirits voted against the Viper Annihilation for one reason, the Adders proposed it. They voted against every single Adder motion wholesale. Why is that hard to figure out?
As for why they fought in the Annihilation, it seems they hoped that working with the rest of th clans would help them. Why they chose to fight so recklessly I do not know. Maybe they hoped if they went all rage on them and won they would earn respect. It was not a smart play.
In a massive war of all factions it makes plenty of sense that the smallest and weakest faction would lose if it chose to go it alone.
Eh, if I was a Blood Spirit Khan, after what happened at York I'd be the one pulling a laspistol at the Grand Council and the two guys getting shot through the head would both be Star Adders.
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You're forgetting that no other clan truly gave a crap about the Spirits. They shut themselves off so deeply that literally the only clan who cared was the Adders. Laser pistoling the Adder khans would have resulted in their open destruction a decade early.
It's why the Adders knew they would get away with it. The other clans were basically like "poor form old sport, refrain form that behavior please" and that was it. No one could declare a trial against the Adders and hope to win against the Snake alliance at that point. The Adders held all the cards and played them.
Might least favorite part of the entire WoR book is the razing of York. I like the Spirits and I would have rather there been a real fight.
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Yeah but attacking the vipers was even inconsistent with the same information on the same page. Open annihilation vs the vipers, Blood Spirits vote against both motions but still participate. Bizarre.
Open doesn't normally mean mandatory .
First, it is never explained why the Blood Spirits opposed the Reaving of the Steel Vipers. For all we know it might have been simple pragmatism. After all Reaving the Vipers would have broken their power base and then there would be nothing to prevent the Star Adders from turning their attention to the Blood Spirits. With York devastated beyond recovery and their touman having sustained crippling losses during the Wars of Reaving, the Blood Spirits would be unable to hold off the Star Adders' assault.
Second, it is not stated that the Blood Spirits opposed the Steel Viper Annihilation. What is stated is that the Blood Spirits opposed was the Star Adders' motion to open the Viper Annihilation to all the Clans. Semi Kalasa speculates that their opposition was on general principle.
Third, as previously stated, the Blood Spirits' touman was extremely weak. Their participation might have simply been an attempt to appear stronger than they actually were. To appear otherwise would have invited the other Clans to take advantage of their weakened state and potentially led to them being absorbed or annihilated themselves. By appearing stronger they could have hoped to buy enough time for their military to recover at least part of their strength.
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The Spirits simply voted "no" as a matter of doing everything opposite the Adders. As far as I can tell, everyone behaved consistently during the Wars of Reaving. Even the Spirits' OOC moment at Arcadia with the Bears happened due to Schmitt's arrogance.
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I wouldn't bother looking too deeply into why the individual Clans' motivations during the Wars of Reaving being inconsistent with their pre-Jihad motivations as storyline consistency took a backseat to needing to achieve a pre-established end result.
This immediately reminded me of some of the corny show ideas they come up with on the history channel.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,31591.0.html
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Yeah, I felt it was one of those things that the Spirit leadership accurately read: if we don't participate in the Annihilation, we invite the same on ourselves. Abstaining was the same as siding with the Vipers, and the political winds dictated "if you aren't on our side, you die." They would oppose every single Adder motion just because, but when it came to participation, they had to.
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Yeah, I felt it was one of those things that the Spirit leadership accurately read: if we don't participate in the Annihilation, we invite the same on ourselves. Abstaining was the same as siding with the Vipers, and the political winds dictated "if you aren't on our side, you die." They would oppose every single Adder motion just because, but when it came to participation, they had to.
The Spirits voted against the Adder proposals simply b/c the Adders proposed/pushed them. At the time, precedent in the Clans was that whoever proposed an absorption/annihilation would get to carry it out and they would get all the resources that remained from the defeated Clan. Since the Adders were the biggest power all the Clans had assumed that the Adders would be picked to carry it out. The Spirits still remember how things turned out for the Spirits the last time the Adders got to execute an absorption/annihilation.
As to why they would jump to the front of the invasion force? The Clans as a whole have typically favored bravado, look at Tukayyid, most clans fought and bid down their forces for the right to be the first ones to land and attack. The idea that winning quickly (well winning is assumed) and with the least number of forces (even if those forces get pounded) for many Clans outweighs any potential strategic losses from your force getting pounded. The Spirits at that point still believed in this idea and felt that when they won their objectives quickly, they would gain stature and standing with the rest of the Clans.
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And again, the Spirits did not see the fundamental need to change the way of the clans or their own view there of, resulting in their touman getting smashed to bits.
The Spirits do everything the Spirit way whether it works or makes sense.
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I think that second part can be said about most Clans that have perished. They road their dogma to their grave when they couldn't change with the times.
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I think that second part can be said about most Clans that have perished. They road their dogma to their grave when they couldn't change with the times.
[applause]
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I think that second part can be said about most Clans that have perished. They road their dogma to their grave when they couldn't change with the times.
I don't think the Blood Spirits killing a bunch of Adder civilians or whatnot counts as sticking to their dogma (or was it warriors? same difference).
Thing is the Star Adders and possibly others performed acts that are now only rivalled by the "mad Jade Falcons" of the Dark Age. Bombarding worlds from Orbit? I can see the last hidden world being somewhat justified as they actually fought on the ground, but destroying York without any pretext of a real ground invasion. It's as un-clan like as one can get and yet no one bats an eyelash.
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But their lust to be hiden, separate and alone was yet another thing that infuriated the rest of the Clans, especially the Adders. A desire to be free, perhaps. Certainly free of the rest of the Clans. Except for their Strana Mechty presence, and the fact that it details in WoR that the Blood Spirits were attentive to matters in the Grand Council in the times before their discovery in the Colleen system and ensuing destruction, the Spirits hid from all Clans.
They also bombarded a few sections of Albion during the WoR itself, armed their own civies and those of any freshly liberated areas. (which bit them on the arse, also on Albion, iirc, when the civies attacked them) The Adder civilian castes seemed to always have timely and convenient access to weaponry too, so it balances out a bit. It helps that the Adders claim the civs arm their selves out of loyalty and duty, basically, and won't punish them. But regardless of this, all of the Clans became annoyed by this tendency on part of the Spirits, the Coyotes and the Stone Lions were the ones to bring their complaints of unclanlike behavior to the Grand Council.
As you say, both sides are guilty of many of the same things. I agree, that the Adders are so flexible that they could have become targets themselves. It says at several points in the WoR that the Adder Khans were indeed wary that Andrews would turn on them.
How this relates to the Spirits vs their once-upon-a-Klondike pals the Vipers, I think can be summed up as... it does not.
But I like the discussion thus far, and I think it is covered quite well by several good points above by other posters. As you see, I also feel that they were simply doing their duty so as to not arouse suspicion about their move to Honor and Haven.
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They may have voted No, but the Trial was approved. They then went with the Clan's Councils Decision. And it cost them far too much in my opinion. Losing what they lost as far as I am concerned doomed the Blood Spirits. They couldn't make up there losses after the Viper Annihilation.
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TBH, the Coyotes were worse off than the Spirits. The only thing that saved the Coyotes was the fact that they were willing to work within the system.
Imagine what would have happened if the Blood Spirits had accepted the Stone Lion's initiatives. (There's no need for an either/or here) Would they have been on the way to rebuilding while the Stone Lions and the Coyotes turned to nibble on the Goliath Scorpions instead?
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The Scorpions were in the Imperio by then.
It's funny how the Clans using orbital bombardment en masse during the WoR are so unacceptable by a lot of Clan fans. Yes, it is extremely un-Clanlike, but in hindsight, perfectly in character. Let's not forget who their ancestors are, and that the SLDF perfected mass saturation bombardments on a whole war front and employed NBC weapons just as frequently. Nicholas Kerensky himself even authorized Cyrus Elam to execute "Case Omega" during Klondike, so there is pretext for the Clans' WoR actions.
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Using during the WoR was one thing. Using it afterword's went against the pale. Essentially the Star Adders have made orbital bombardment a normal part of the bid process now. Not exactly a resource conserving measure the Clans are noted for.
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Using during the WoR was one thing. Using it afterword's went against the pale. Essentially the Star Adders have made orbital bombardment a normal part of the bid process now. Not exactly a resource conserving measure the Clans are noted for.
Using WarShip support was always part of the bid process, until Turtle Bay.
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TBH, the Coyotes were worse off than the Spirits. The only thing that saved the Coyotes was the fact that they were willing to work within the system.
Imagine what would have happened if the Blood Spirits had accepted the Stone Lion's initiatives. (There's no need for an either/or here) Would they have been on the way to rebuilding while the Stone Lions and the Coyotes turned to nibble on the Goliath Scorpions instead?
The answer would be no. As far as the Blood Spirits were concerned, the Stone Lions and the Coyotes were trying to destroy them by seizing control of what few manufacturing facilities the Spirits had left. Without them the Spirits would be unable to rebuild any modicum of strength.
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And how often was Orbital Bombardment used prior to the Clan Invasion? Not including Klondike. Warships were used against other warships, and very rarely. While they were used during the invasion and included in the bidding process, not one example do we have of a warship being used for bombardment. Turtle Bay wasn't even used against a opposing force, but a rebellious planet and even the other Clans considered the use of bombardment as going to far.
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And how often was Orbital Bombardment used prior to the Clan Invasion? Not including Klondike. Warships were used against other warships, and very rarely. While they were used during the invasion and included in the bidding process, not one example do we have of a warship being used for bombardment. Turtle Bay wasn't even used against a opposing force, but a rebellious planet and even the other Clans considered the use of bombardment as going to far.
Warships were the Clans' Ace-in-the-Hole if they came across something they couldn't through conventional means. Like nuclear weapons, their greatest benefit was their intimidation factor rather than actually using them. Besides orbital support wasn't the only way warships can or were used. They were also used (as orbital observation platforms) to help keep track of enemy units, escorts for the invasion force and interdiction purposes.
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I think the increase in orbital bombardment can be contributed to two things: The issue of burning out "taint" in the WoR era, and the breaking down of Clan Zell in around and before the WoR.
And the book WoR supports both and takes time to explain both. We see Strana Mechty burning (some genetic repositories were even destroyed by orbital bombardment), we see Zell being discarded whenever it is deemed convenient and the enemy considered dezgra, chalcas or tainted (take your pick or take all three). We see Clans finding justification to burn out tainted units/enclaves, even genetic repositories, because they were tainted, or a nest of revolting lower castemen or Society types.
In the 3060s, FM: U supports the fact that we see an increase in warship use. Not in bombardment at that stage, but in space combat. Just a few years later that went to the next step.
If what the Star Adders did on York was a standalone incident. If it hadn't been soon followed by a Grand Council ripe with indecision, and a Clan society at a tipping point of fear, it might have been a bigger deal, it might have brought on more of a response from the other Clans (though...what response did the Clans give to the Turtle Bay incident? Not much...). But instead it was quickly intermixed with an era of broken down communications, chaos and warfare and even viral plagues in the Homeworlds the likes of which nobody had seen in centuries.
I have no doubt the Blood Spirits continued to hold it close to their minds and hearts. But I'm not sure anyone else really cared, especially by the beginning of the Viper annihilation. By that point all the Clans had blood on their hands and they were desperately trying to move past it all and rebuild a crumbling civilization.
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Using warships for fire support has always been part of the bidding process, it's just likely the first thing to go in a bid. So clan A attacks clan B, clan B breaks zell so clan A fires on them from orbit is technically ok.
Clan A brings a flotilla in over clan B's homeworld and proceeds to systematically turn it into a wasteland... not ok.
But if clan A is the biggest dog in the homeworlds and closely allied with the next two biggest dogs, and clan B is a small clan that acts like they hate everyone else and has irked pretty much every other clan... well that right there is a loophole.
I don't want anyone to think I am saying the Adders were right in their treatment of York, it was unclanlike; and as much as I think WoR is the best BT work ever, I didn't like the decision to go that route. I do think the bombardment of the Colleen planet was acceptable. The Spirits were going to fight to the death, and it would have been more wasteful for the Adders to fight a long ground war.
The only way the Spirits were going to survive the WoR is if they directly asked the Adders for forgiveness for intervening in the Burrock Absorption and then sworn off the blood feud.
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I do not think that it was Unclanlike, as Ben Rome aid, it was ever part of the bidding process.
Furthermore, these orbital bombardment were the final step to achieve victory. Especially when fighting a dezgra enemy who do not play along the rules.
Brutal? Yes.
Ruthless? Yes.
But Unclanlike? No, "Might makes Right".
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But there was no bid. There was no declaration of a trial. There was no following of clan law. The Adders showed up with a fleet, lifted their troops off planet, and proceeded to systematically destroy the entire planet from orbit.
It is indeed unclanlike. As an Adder fan I see why it happened, it was the practical solution. But the only way it ever happens is if it's the biggest clan hitting the smallest clan that made a point to piss every other clan off. If the Scorpions did the same thing to the Cobras at that point the Scorpioms would have been burned at te stake.
The Adders got away with it because of their situation as a powerful clan, that's not the definition of might makes right. The clans call it a circle of equals because they promote fair and clean combat.
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The entire fight on York was a long running battle lacking a trial though. The Blood Spirits made it plain York was there turf and all gloves were off in defending it. And I mean right from the get go so it isn't surprising that when the Adders lifted there troops off they would spoilsport there gains. But the kicker was they spoil sported the planet, one of the few real worlds that needed nothing from elsewhere to survive. That was what broke the Clan way for the Adders. There was no attempt to conserve resources. They just took there toys and threw a tantrum and went home.
Interesting thing though, there were Manufacturing Centers on York that might have survived and have just been abandoned.
Clan Blood Spirit Reserve Industriplex-2 -Protomechs
Kindraa Payne-Beyl-Grant Main Production Facility-Protomechs
York Aerospace Fighter Y4 Facility-Vandal Omnifighter
York BattleMech Y3 Facility-Blood Kite
York OmniMech Y1 Facility-Stooping Hawk
York Vehicle Y2 Facility-Crimson Langur, Shamash, Morrigu
I wonder if the Adders targeted those factory's or avoided them so they could return later to salvage what they could. I wonder if the Blood Spirits had sent anybody back to salvage what they could for there new holdings? Heck,-conspiracy time-I could see the Spirits sending people back to operate any surviving facility's even after York was bombarded and just running them under hazardous conditions as they Clan needed that equipment.
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The Adders did have the right using orbital bombardment because it was in their original bid included.
WoR, page 42:
However, with the CSA Stellar Serpent in geosynchronous orbit, the Spirits hesitated from a last final push, both at their own limit and unwilling
to see the Adders forced to use orbital bombardment as an option for defense—and returned to their original bid from the initial invasion.
I would like to know the details about this bidding.
While the Clans may prefer clean battles, this total warfare has ever been within their rules of engagement.
And when they think they had to do it, they did.
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And how often was Orbital Bombardment used prior to the Clan Invasion? Not including Klondike. Warships were used against other warships, and very rarely. While they were used during the invasion and included in the bidding process, not one example do we have of a warship being used for bombardment. Turtle Bay wasn't even used against a opposing force, but a rebellious planet and even the other Clans considered the use of bombardment as going to far.
It was used at least once during the Jaguar absorption of Clan Mongoose.
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I wonder if the Adders targeted those factory's or avoided them so they could return later to salvage what they could. I wonder if the Blood Spirits had sent anybody back to salvage what they could for there new holdings? Heck,-conspiracy time-I could see the Spirits sending people back to operate any surviving facility's even after York was bombarded and just running them under hazardous conditions as they Clan needed that equipment.
It is pretty clear that the Star Adders didn't hold back. "For twenty-two days, the Adders bombarded the surface of York, hitting every city and facility and breaking the back of the Clan. Combined with targeted airstrikes, the bombardment destroyed ninety percent of the Blood Spirits’ industry and three-quarters of the planetary population." (WoR, p105)
The Blood Spirits salvaged what they could before abandoning York. "Little remained on York to salvage and the Clan abandoned their long-time capital, relocating to their two secret worlds in Colleen." (WoR, p156)
Any remaining manufacturing machinery would have been relocated as the Star Adder blockade would have prevented any off-world support to the planet or any shipments off-planet (The Star Adders blockaded the planet again after the bombardment of the York). It was this reformed blockade that destroyed the CDS Titanic. (WoR, p137)
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Need to reread WoR sometime soon. Missed that description completely.
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Need to reread WoR sometime soon. Missed that description completely.
He beat me to it. The supplemental says the Stone Lions were trialing for production of Blood Kites, Stooping Hawks, and kingfishers so it is possible those designs live on, possibly being manufactured on Tokasha. They only need the blue prints since they have a massive manufacturing facility.
Gaiten the Adders had one warship in the bid. They brought in more to destroy York. They did violate clan law and no other clan cared (or cared enough to challenge them). Zell was probably out the window from the get to anyway.
I'm sure WoR makes the whole thing make sense. I just don't like it.
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The Adders did have the right using orbital bombardment because it was in their original bid included.
I would like to know the details about this bidding.
By the original bidding we were never given details but from the units involved as described in FM:U the Adders originally bid Beta Galaxy and probably a Star of WarShips with heavy aerospace support to destroy the Blood Fury and force a way through York's near space.
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Just curious, did the Star Adders warships remain above York the entire time? If they did they remain a part of the original bid but if they left and took part in other operations or were bid elsewhere there no longer involved with the Trial on York.
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My two cents, since most of this has been covered:
I really don't see how people are coming to this "the Spirits have pissed off all the other Clans" conclusion. How so? What Clan's toes have they stepped on OTHER than the Star Adders? The other Clans were dismissive and ambivalent towards the Blood Spirits, not hostile...well, not hostile for the Clans, that is.
The Adders did rotate WarShips over York over the years...Tehuantepec was featured in the BattleCorps story "Tears of Blood", Sovereign Right or Absolute Truth (can't remember which) killed the Titanic over York, the Spirits destroyed Vritra over York, and there might be a mention or two that I can't recall at the moment. But it doesn't matter if the WarShips used were a part of the original bid or not, because the Adders didn't bother with communicating with the Spirits at all when they showed up to evac their people and start committing mass murder. They just did it. They threw any pretense of a Trial to the winds.
If we're all being honest with ourselves, the Adders did what they did on York as nothing more than petty, spiteful revenge. They can say whatever they want in their notes in the WoR book, but it was pretty clear why they did what they did. It's the same reason they came after the Spirits after the Viper Annihilation. They could've just let the Spirits leave and be done with them forever, but they not only came to finish what was started, they repeated York all over again, which pretty much underscores my reasoning for why they glassed York to begin with: revenge.
As for the Vipers, it should've been properly explained why the Blood Spirits would throw themselves so recklessly into their Annihilation when it would've made sense for the Spirits to use the distraction to further distance themselves from the Clans. This plot point made absolutely no sense, and not even Andrews' actions against them on Tokasha adequately explain this because this isn't even alluded to in the book. We're all just theorizing at this point.
It still makes no sense to me that the Coyotes were allowed to live despite literally betraying and selling out the other Clans, and the Scorpions were Abjured and chased out with relatively little fuss despite their "taint", but the Blood Spirits couldn't be allowed to walk away. I get that in a post-WoR Kerensky Cluster, arming your civvies was a no-no, but this was just an excuse to the Adders (who, as was pointed out earlier, did the same thing on occasion) who were simply waiting for an excuse to finish the job.
If only the Adders had gotten over themselves and revealed to the Spirits that they were right the entire time that they were saying that the taint of the Burrocks lived on within the Star Adders. Imagine what could've been had the Star Adders came to the Blood Spirits once the Burrocks proclaimed themselves a Clan again and said, "Hey, let's go bury the hatchet in these guys that you hate anyway!"
Sigh. Oh well, at least it's easier for me not to spend money on this brand now. Silver linings and all.
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Tassa, I agree with most of what you said so I'm not going to quote it all, but i think there are a couple things where you missed a bit.
I do not think spite was what the Adders were thinking on York as much as we have bigger problems it's time we swept this one under the rug for good. I would have preferred a side bar about the Adder khans hating the Spirits and rejoicing in toasting York... but what we got was it was a totally cold, emotionless, practical decision.
I also think the Spirits would have had to reach out to the Adders to create peace. Like you said, hey look what the Burrocks are doing now, we tried to warn you and that was our intent during the absorption. The Adders were not driven by some crazy blood lust towards the Spirits. Hell they we're using York as a training ground to blood new warriors. They probably would have listened, if the Spirits made it make sense to stop fighting they should listen.
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The Clans are arrogance personified. They will never admit they are wrong. The Blood Spirits might have been right about the Burrocks but the Adders wouldn't admit it even if they were in the middle of a pitched battle with Burrock survivors. The Adders bombarded York for 21 days. They targeted civilian and military infrastructure. That wasn't the end result of a trial. That was sour grapes. And the Star Adders will say they are right, because who would gainsay them?
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I do not think spite was what the Adders were thinking oattention to much as we have bigger problems it's time we swept this one under the rug for good. I would have preferred a side bar about the Adder khans hating the Spirits and rejoicing in toasting York... but what we got was it was a totally cold, emotionless, practical decision.
I agree with this in part, but the Adders had consolidated most of their touman and were actively looking for a target for their wrath at the time, and as much as I'd like to to be able to attribute that sort of purely-calculated attitude to the Adders, the truth (and this has been said on more than one occasion) the Adders hate the Spirits as much as the Spirits hate the Adders. It's this hatred (the death of Dante Truscott needing to be avenged was directly cited by Stanislov N'Buta to turn the Adders' attention to the Spirits) that made it easy for what happened to happen, and the Adders could walk away feeling justified and vindicated at the same time.
I guess I'm saying that it was a little of both: a practical solution to a problem and a way to get revenge. But both were undeniably factors in York's destruction.
I also think the Spirits would have had to reach out to the Adders to create peace. Like you said, hey look what the Burrocks are doing now, we tried to warn you and that was our intent during the absorption. The Adders were not driven by some crazy blood lust towards the Spirits. Hell they we're using York as a training ground to blood new warriors. They probably would have listened, if the Spirits made it make sense to stop fighting they should listen.
Did the Spirits even know about the Burrock resurgence? I just can't believe that this plot point was ignored, because if there was one thing that might've ended the blood feud, the return of Clan Burrock was it.
Also, they may not have been irrational about their hatred, but make no mistake: the Adders returned that hatred in full. This has been noted more than once. The Spirits' own characterization painted them into a corner, and perhaps this was just the way it was going to end: with one of them being destroyed.
Such a waste. We could've exterminated the Burrocks together. :)
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Funny part about it all was that the Star Adders and the Blood Spirits got somewhat along before the Burrock Absorption.
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Funny part about it all was that the Star Adders and the Blood Spirits got somewhat along before the Burrock Absorption.
I think the Adders were cool with the Spirits before the absorption. I remain surprised the Spirits were not called to the carpet for interfering in the absorption.
The reason the Adders and Spirits did not make peace and unite against the Burrocks half way through WoR is obvious, it would have spoiled the ending where they dominate. The Spirits would have absorbed the remaining Horses and there's your 4 clans.
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The real fun part was just how well the Spirits did during the WoR. Multiple worlds, new formations, and even alliances that they wouldn't have had before. If the Blood Spirit Khan hadn't pissed off the Ghost Bears, they hadn't lost three galaxy's against the Steel Vipers or lost so much against the Vipers during there Annihilation I think they Blood Spirits would have been left in much better condition when the other Clans discovered there new homeworld. All they had to do was to avoid just one of those three and there fate would have been far different I think.
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I think the Adders were cool with the Spirits before the absorption.
The Adders probably shared the contempt that most Clans felt towards the questionable Blood Spirits that they were bordering on outright treason. But as long as the Blood Spirits kept to themselves and didn't interfere in Adder business, the Adders couldn't care less what they did. The Adders probably frequently forgot about the Spirits altogether.
I remain surprised the Spirits were not called to the carpet for interfering in the absorption.
The Adders probably tried, but the Clans got too caught up with other events (Harvest Trials, new Star League, Operation Bulldog, Task Force Serpent, destruction of the Smoke Jaguars, Great Refusal, abjuration of the Nova Cats and fighting over Nova Cat and Smoke Jaguar possessions) that kept them busy for some time. By the time, the Adders would have been able to redirect the Grand Council's attention to the Blood Spirits' actions the Blood Spirits had already withdrawn to York and too much time would have passed for the GC to really care. Besides the Adders wanted to punish the Blood Spirits not to have them simply censured.
The reason the Adders and Spirits did not make peace and unite against the Burrocks half way through WoR is obvious, it would have spoiled the ending where they dominate. The Spirits would have absorbed the remaining Horses and there's your 4 clans.
You do remember that the Spirits destroyed the Adders' enclave on Strana Mechty and killed the Adder saKhan while the Adders bombarded York until it became uninhabitable? The Adders wanted to destroy them but had more important business to deal with first (dealing with the Invading Clans out of the homeworlds, eliminating the Society and Clan Burrock and destroying the Steel Vipers). Not to mention that the Star Adders had no idea where the Spirits moved their capital after the destruction of York.
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The Clans that called for the Blood Spirit's Annihilation/Reaving in the Founder's Future section (Adder, Coyote and Stone Lion) pretty much hated the Blood Spirits. Not all the Clans, but enough for a majority vote over the Cobras who might have objected in the Grand Council. And the Spirits could not vote, being the object of the Annihilation/Absorption/Reaving calls. So they were eventually screwed, regardless of the type of trial that they would face.
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It still makes no sense to me that the Coyotes were allowed to live despite literally betraying and selling out the other Clans, and the Scorpions were Abjured and chased out with relatively little fuss despite their "taint", but the Blood Spirits couldn't be allowed to walk away. I get that in a post-WoR Kerensky Cluster, arming your civvies was a no-no, but this was just an excuse to the Adders (who, as was pointed out earlier, did the same thing on occasion) who were simply waiting for an excuse to finish the job.
- Because all clans was more or less involved into the Society (more for the Coyotes).
- The Coyotes was beated but not totaly destroyed on Tamaron , at this point the invasion force have already took severe loss, without the "magic ace " warship Zalman
the cleansing of Babylon would have been a nightmare. so better to stop the butcher bill and seal a deal in the clan way (some trials, some execution and everybodies are happy).
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I'm sorry, but that's kind of ludicrous. The Clans have always dealt with traitors in a way that "harsh" doesn't do justice: the Wolverines, the Widowmakers, the Nova Cats, etc. The Coyotes willfully betrayed the other Clans, tried to topple the warrior caste, and were one of the most responsible of all the guilty parties. It's unfathomable to me that they were allowed to live while the Scorpions were Abjured for MUCH less, but everyone's entitled to an opinion, of course.
I do understand, by the by, that the Coyotes were most likely allowed to live because the Adders knew that if they allowed it, they'd have the Coyotes (one of their most bitter enemies in the past) owing them for eternity. I get the in-universe explanation. I just think it was a poor writing call.
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The Coyotes showed that they were not a completely tainted Clan when ellements of them fight along the Vipers during the Battle of Tamaron. After this they did a ruthless cleansing/Reaving and played along the rules of the Great Conclave. They embedded themselves wholeheartley in the Clan society again and so have gotten the trust of their brethen again.
So they got the second chance.
The Spirits did not do this. After the Viper annihilation they could have done a new beginning.
The Adders gave them the chance. Till the Call of Abjuration by Coyote Khan Koga there are no battles between Spirits and Adders reported.
For the reasons the Adders had for the bombardment see WoR, page 105, "Spirit Chalcas".
Ruthles, but from a Clanner`s view a proper action.
Their only mistake was stopping the bombardment not finishing the Spirits when they were down. This was un-Clanlike
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I think the rank and file Coyote warriors were not all involved with the Society. It seems like the majority of them were not aware of the scinetists' grip on their clan. The only evidence I have to support this is the few instances in WoR where groups of Coyote warriors learn the truth and then proceed to start fighting agains their own clan.
It seems a little more like the Burrock situation. Lots of bad apples but still plenty of good ones as well. Probably the reason the Adders did not outright absorb them.
The reason they were not annihilated is because the Adders were ready to turn on the Vipers at that point. Andrews had totally lost it, and they needed every usable man and machine to take the Vipers down.
The Scorpions, I Agree, did less and were punished hard.
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The Spirits could have supported the Vipers, fighting long them versus the Adders.
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I think the rank and file Coyote warriors were not all involved with the Society. It seems like the majority of them were not aware of the scinetists' grip on their clan. The only evidence I have to support this is the few instances in WoR where groups of Coyote warriors learn the truth and then proceed to start fighting agains their own clan.
It seems a little more like the Burrock situation. Lots of bad apples but still plenty of good ones as well. Probably the reason the Adders did not outright absorb them.
The reason they were not annihilated is because the Adders were ready to turn on the Vipers at that point. Andrews had totally lost it, and they needed every usable man and machine to take the Vipers down.
Finally, an answer that makes sense. :)
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The Spirits could have supported the Vipers, fighting long them versus the Adders.
As epic as that may sound, they would both be Annihilated against the other 4 Clans. The Adders would suffer much more and get preyed upon by the other Clans after it's done, though.
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The Coyotes showed that they were not a completely tainted Clan when ellements of them fight along the Vipers during the Battle of Tamaron. After this they did a ruthless cleansing/Reaving and played along the rules of the Great Conclave. They embedded themselves wholeheartley in the Clan society again and so have gotten the trust of their brethen again.
So they got the second chance.
Second chance? Yes. Trust? Not quite. The Cloud Cobras still blame them for how the Reavings unfolded. Their merchant caste, most receptive of the Coyotes, is more due to the added leverage the Coyotes' stigma gives them in negotiations.
The Spirits did not do this. After the Viper annihilation they could have done a new beginning.
The Adders gave them the chance. Till the Call of Abjuration by Coyote Khan Koga there are no battles between Spirits and Adders reported.
That was more due to the fact that the Adders didn't know where the Blood Spirits had withdrawn to. They could easily eliminate the Spirits' Strana Mechty garrison but what then? The Spirits might go into hiding or, even worse, turn the other Clans against the Adders by making them believe that the Adders intend to make a play for the ilClanship by eliminating all opposition.
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That was more due to the fact that the Adders didn't know where the Blood Spirits had withdrawn to. They could easily eliminate the Spirits' Strana Mechty garrison but what then? The Spirits might go into hiding or, even worse, turn the other Clans against the Adders by making them believe that the Adders intend to make a play for the ilClanship by eliminating all opposition.
I agree.
And even after Colleen was discovered by the other Clans the Adders did not begin raids against these worlds. They left them alone, only watching
Only when the Coyotes called for Abjuration, the Adders jumped in and began their final assault.
My comment towards the Coyotes shall show that if the Spirits would have worked together with other Clans and so showing that they were to play along the rules, they could have even end the feud with the Adders.
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Finally, an answer that makes sense. :)
That's my one for the year, I'm done.
Gaiten has a good point; if the Spirits had made nice with the Adders the Coyotes probably would be done for.
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And even after Colleen was discovered by the other Clans the Adders did not begin raids against these worlds. They left them alone, only watching
...and waiting for an excuse to finish them off.
My comment towards the Coyotes shall show that if the Spirits would have worked together with other Clans and so showing that they were to play along the rules, they could have even end the feud with the Adders.
Very unlikely. Their feud was only going to end with the death of one or the other.
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Very unlikely. Their feud was only going to end with the death of one or the other.
I do not think so.
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I do not think so.
Then you'd be wrong.
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The Blood Spirits were running afoul of too many other Clans to fly under the radar anymore. And the Adders do not let things go, as a trait.
They were obsessed with Absorbing another Clan. They felt somewhat entitled to the Mongoose Absorption, but that Jags had the fire, so to speak, and were granted the rights to carry it out. The Adders took what they could, according to the text. It's framed a couple of different ways between the Jags and Adders, and the Adders certainly weren't in the wrong. But it was the beginning of their ambitions to grow in power.
Then the botched plot to try to Absorb the Coyotes, leading to the Blood Scandal. Then the Burrock Absorption came up. The Blood Spirits interfered with it in a major way, ignoring zell in favor of heavy strikes. It endangered everything, and the Adders were never going to let it go.
The Coyotes and Stone Lions turned on the Spirits as well after facing hordes of armed civies on Honor. The Scorpions were already gone by that point, and the Adders had them finally. They still could not get an Annihilation vote through the Council, but they got another Absorption. And we know the rest, Absorption via Orbital Bombardment. Ironic, in that the Adders turned up their noses at valuable assets, just because they were held by the Blood Spirits and didn't want to waste any more lives of their own warriors to finish them off. Effective Annihilation.
The Blood Spirits had no chance, a snowball in any mythical hell has better odds.
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Yeah and Blood Kite or Stooping Hawk factory would be nice, but it would cost a galaxy to get it.
There was solution that went better for the Adders
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They were obsessed with Absorbing another Clan. They felt somewhat entitled to the Mongoose Absorption, but that Jags had the fire, so to speak, and were granted the rights to carry it out. The Adders took what they could, according to the text. It's framed a couple of different ways between the Jags and Adders, and the Adders certainly weren't in the wrong. But it was the beginning of their ambitions to grow in power.
As far as FM:CC (p112-113) is concerned, the Star Adders were simply engaged in a counter-offensive against Clan Mongoose that was wrapping up when the Grand Council granted the Smoke Jaguars' request for a Trial of Absorption of Clan Mongoose. When the Smoke Jaguars protested that they had been deprived of their full measure of victory by weakening Clan Mongoose, the Grand Council recognized the Star Adders right for retribution against Clan Mongoose for losses they had previously sustained at the hands of Clan Mongoose.
Then the botched plot to try to Absorb the Coyotes, leading to the Blood Scandal. Then the Burrock Absorption came up. The Blood Spirits interfered with it in a major way, ignoring zell in favor of heavy strikes. It endangered everything, and the Adders were never going to let it go.
Again, where did you get this? As far as both Field Manuals (FMWC-p42, FMCC-p113)are concerned only the saKhan and a few of his allies were involved.
Ironic, in that the Adders turned up their noses at valuable assets, just because they were held by the Blood Spirits and didn't want to waste any more lives of their own warriors to finish them off.
WoR (p155-156) clearly states that first the Coyotes and Stone Lions stripped what they could from the holdings they captured before withdrawing from the system before the Star Adders arrived. In turn, the Star Adders spent more than a month hunting and destroying most of the remaining Blood Spirit clusters before packing up as much isorla as they could and withdrawing. The orbital bombardment began as the Star Adders were withdrawing to their landing zone.
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As far as FM:CC (p112-113) is concerned, the Star Adders were simply engaged in a counter-offensive against Clan Mongoose that was wrapping up when the Grand Council granted the Smoke Jaguars' request for a Trial of Absorption of Clan Mongoose. When the Smoke Jaguars protested that they had been deprived of their full measure of victory by weakening Clan Mongoose, the Grand Council recognized the Star Adders right for retribution against Clan Mongoose for losses they had previously sustained at the hands of Clan Mongoose.
My point was that the Adders took back what they attacked. FM Crusader Clans says that their attack was launched three days prior to the Grand Council decision, and as I also said, they were not in the wrong. But they were taking what they wanted. If they were not, then why were they attacking?
Again, where did you get this? As far as both Field Manuals (FMWC-p42, FMCC-p113)are concerned only the saKhan and a few of his allies were involved.
Of course the text in FM Crusader Clans says Carson Graves acted alone, it is from the Star Adder point of view. The Coyote section of Warden Clans indicates that Carson Graves was not acting alone.
Basically, if leadership is involved, leadership right under only the Khan, then to me that signals that there was rumbling within the Star Adder Clan about Absorbing Clan Coyote (or any Clan they could, likely. Coyote happened to present a target of opportunity)
The alternative is Carson Graves was acting alone. I just don''t think that's the case. He had to be part of a conspiracy for a plan that large.
WoR (p155-156) clearly states that first the Coyotes and Stone Lions stripped what they could from the holdings they captured before withdrawing from the system before the Star Adders arrived. In turn, the Star Adders spent more than a month hunting and destroying most of the remaining Blood Spirit clusters before packing up as much isorla as they could and withdrawing. The orbital bombardment began as the Star Adders were withdrawing to their landing zone.
You are talking about the Coyotes and Stone Lions on Honor. And yes they certainly did take whatever moveable assets survived the fighting there.
I was referring to Haven, where the Spirits withdrew to, taking what thy could from Honor. This is from page 155 -156 too.
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My point was that the Adders took back what they attacked. FM Crusader Clans says that their attack was launched three days prior to the Grand Council decision, and as I also said, they were not in the wrong. But they were taking what they wanted. If they were not, then why were they attacking?
And my point is that it in no way shows that they had any interest in absorbing Clan Mongoose. For all we know they were simply reclaiming enclaves previously lost.
Of course the text in FM Crusader Clans says Carson Graves acted alone, it is from the Star Adder point of view. The Coyote section of Warden Clans indicates that Carson Graves was not acting alone.
Basically, if leadership is involved, leadership right under only the Khan, then to me that signals that there was rumbling within the Star Adder Clan about Absorbing Clan Coyote (or any Clan they could, likely. Coyote happened to present a target of opportunity)
There are always rumbling about absorbing this Clan, annihilating that Clan, doesn't mean that the Clan as a whole is interested or that the Khans will act on one or any of them. Do you really think that the Star Adders were interested in absorbing the Coyotes the way Graves was planning?
You are talking about the Coyotes and Stone Lions on Honor. And yes they certainly did take whatever moveable assets survived the fighting there.
I was referring to Haven, where the Spirits withdrew to, taking what thy could from Honor. This is from page 155 -156 too.
No I am talking about the Coyotes and Stone Lions on Haven. Neither the Coyotes nor the Stone Lions landed on Honor. By the time the Coyotes and Stone Lions arrived Honor had already suffered its catastrophic earthquake and neither Clan was interested in seizing territory on a planet that could fall apart at any time.
You stated that the Star Adders were obsessed with absorbing another Clan, my main point is that they were no more obsessed with absorbing another Clan than any other Clan. If they were obsessed with anything then, like any Clan, they were obsessed with increasing their Clan's strength be it through capturing a single enclave, a planet or an entire Clan. Sure they would have been glad to absorb Clan Coyote but more due to the fact that it would have increased their Clan's strength and brought them closer to becoming ilClan not because they cared particularly about absorbing the Coyotes.
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And my point is that it in no way shows that they had any interest in absorbing Clan Mongoose. For all we know they were simply reclaiming enclaves previously lost.
This I agree with. The Adders would've made a case for Absorption when the Mongooses put their necks on the chopping block.
There are always rumbling about absorbing this Clan, annihilating that Clan, doesn't mean that the Clan as a whole is interested or that the Khans will act on one or any of them. Do you really think that the Star Adders were interested in absorbing the Coyotes the way Graves was planning?
Do you really think the Star Adders would turn down the Absorption if they'd been able to make it happen? Would any Clan?
You stated that the Star Adders were obsessed with absorbing another Clan, my main point is that they were no more obsessed with absorbing another Clan than any other Clan. If they were obsessed with anything then, like any Clan, they were obsessed with increasing their Clan's strength be it through capturing a single enclave, a planet or an entire Clan. Sure they would have been glad to absorb Clan Coyote but more due to the fact that it would have increased their Clan's strength and brought them closer to becoming ilClan not because they cared particularly about absorbing the Coyotes.
Yeah, because the Adder antipathy for Clan Coyote stems from the Coyotes' reaction to the Blood Scandal. The Adders offered their surkairede, but the Coyotes wanted more and the Adders denied them that. They can point to the matter and call it resolved, and thus make the Coyotes look bad. Graves' gambit was plausibly deniable but also would've netted an enormous prize had it been successful and I don't think the Adders would've refused this.
But again, none of the other Clans would've turned it down, either. That's the sort of hyper-Darwinist pressure-cooker that Nicholas Kerensky created out of the SLDF, and the Star Adders are no exception to this.
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And my point is that it in no way shows that they had any interest in absorbing Clan Mongoose. For all we know they were simply reclaiming enclaves previously lost.
If the interest in Absorbing Clan Mongoose was not there, this is the first time the Star Adders were involved with the events of an Absorption. It's just my opinion that here is where the seeds were planted.
There are always rumbling about absorbing this Clan, annihilating that Clan, doesn't mean that the Clan as a whole is interested or that the Khans will act on one or any of them. Do you really think that the Star Adders were interested in absorbing the Coyotes the way Graves was planning?
No other Clan is involved with or linked to so many Trials of Absorption, whether directly, as in most cases latter in their history, or in a tertiary manner as with the Mongoose Absorption. I do think that there was a small but strong minority within the political makeup of the Star Adders that were plotting exactly these kinds of things for a long time. Carson Graves was an early Crusader, obviously. It stands to reason he was acting in accord with his political beliefs.
The Adders have a thing for making plans long in advance, after all. This is still my opinion, but it has a strong base in the text.
By contrast, the Adders and Burrocks were indicated to work closely together, exploring and profiting from the exploration of the Kerensky Custer. Yet when evidence came to light of the Burrocks dealings with the Dark Caste and Bandits, the Adder Khan Cassius N'Buta had no compunction about demanding the right of absorption. The odds are very good I figure that the Adders even had a plan shelved for such an occasion. Possibly one for each Clan that neighbored them. Just my opinion.
No I am talking about the Coyotes and Stone Lions on Haven. Neither the Coyotes nor the Stone Lions landed on Honor. By the time the Coyotes and Stone Lions arrived Honor had already suffered its catastrophic earthquake and neither Clan was interested in seizing territory on a planet that could fall apart at any time.
You stated that the Star Adders were obsessed with absorbing another Clan, my main point is that they were no more obsessed with absorbing another Clan than any other Clan. If they were obsessed with anything then, like any Clan, they were obsessed with increasing their Clan's strength be it through capturing a single enclave, a planet or an entire Clan. Sure they would have been glad to absorb Clan Coyote but more due to the fact that it would have increased their Clan's strength and brought them closer to becoming ilClan not because they cared particularly about absorbing the Coyotes.
OK about Honor and Haven and where exactly the other Home Clans turned against the Blood Spirits, as it was in the same star system. I misremembered that bit. But that is besides the point.
Taking a step back for a second: The Adders were involved with a so-called Annihilation of the Steel Vipers. We all know it to be a bizarre proceeding, as it was open to all Clans. But even though the Grand Council called it an Annihilation, the Andrews Bloodline screams "ABSORPTION!". The other Bloodlines do as well.
Then the Spirit Annihilation/Absorption happened after the events discussed.
Basically, if "obsessed" is too strong of a word, perhaps fixated works better.
No other Clan is linked to or involved with so many Absorptions. There are several Clans that are never involved with anything of the sort. The Star Adders seem to have recognized Absorption as the fastest way to grow amongst the Clans, and have acted on it more than any other Clan. They also seem to always be ready for anything, but especially for Trials of Absorption. Perhaps that is part of how disgustingly perfect they are perceived to be by some players.
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The Adders seem to have contingency plans for everything.
This is why I'm scared when I hear them described as smugly ambitious. As soon as they think they are perfect and stop worrying about what may come, then they will fall.
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The Adders have understood that they need other Clans to compete with, giving them honorable adverseries, who follow Clan rules.
That competition in low-level warfare and both civilian and military development might be the right impetus for a new Golden Age.
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Golden Age would be a stretch.
The post-WoR Homeworlds is a post-apocalyptic place, and with the scientists suffering a massive depopulation picking themselves up from the ashes will take a long time.
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A spartanic warrior society does not need a paradise for living. And giving the descriptions in WoR Suppl. they seem to be industrial powerhouses again.
As Cold1 wrote, there seem to be joint researchement efforts and programs.
To the lack of scientists, while many died, this should have broken free whole ranks and new blood unencumbered by old coterie and restart the whole business of researchment anew.
If the warrior caste might even respect the work of the scientists more and shows them proper respect (in limits) the scientists might be more motivated than ever.
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Do you really think the Star Adders would turn down the Absorption if they'd been able to make it happen? Would any Clan?
Clan Sea Fox actually. p59 of Warden Clans. Ebbing Enthusiasm.
I do not know of any other clans that would turn down an opportunity to strengthen themselves though.
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That is most certainly true, every Clan would love such an opportunity. But not all Clans can take advantage of the opportunity, no matter how much they want to do it. Absorptions can be draining. The Smoke Jaguars were said to have asked for the same right of protection while they recovered from it (and were allowed to get more warships from a cache, because the Smoke Jaguars need to have warships, right? for police actions and stuff...) that the Wolves once were allowed after their Absorption of the Widowmakers. And that's just one Absorption, not many.
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Yeah, more I read of War of Reaving the more I don't particularly care for it to be honest. Some of the little things just don't make sense. One example is a Goliath vs Cloud Cobra battle, where the Scorpions held them off on two occasions and then in one instance a shot from a mech takes down a bridge and with it takes half of some Cloud Cobra formation. And then what happens? The cloud cobras trounce the scorpions.
Maybe my mind works differently, but if half of a formation just fell to their deaths I would think that would hurt my chances of trouncing the enemy, not ensuring that it happens.
As for the Adders, well the ironic thing is that in fighting the Blood Spirits they became them. I've read two entries now where the Adders armed their civilian populations. And also the Spirits became the Adders when they bombarded a couple of cities from orbit.
Dunno, but personally it's hard to stomach a lot of what I'm reading. I try finishing the book but there's always something else which makes me put it down. The fact that the Spirits perish and the Adders survive is fine given their relative strength prior to the WoR, but the road leading to final destruction or survival is a sketchy one at best.
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Not everyone agrees, certainly. And we aren't required to, of course.
I've brought it up before, too, the hypocrisy of it on part of the Adders. That they can cite Clan Law when they need to, stress honor and the words of Kerensky with the best of them, working the Council better than the Mongooses. They can take military advantage of Clan Law, what with all of their Absorptions mentioned ad nauseum (sorry) and do it to impressive effect. And the Adders do all of those things that their enemies do, or that they accuse them of doing. Back to the hypocrisy of it all.
It just has to be intentional. And now we have confirmation that the Adders are smugly ambitious. I'm glad I've been reading them well.
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The thing that's always bothered me about the clans in general is that their history is very thin. Even in this discussion for example, people talk about the Adders as if they are the same clan from the Mongoose absorption right up to the War of Reaving but that was hundreds of year of history with on average far more generations than the Inner Sphere.
Compare it to something like Comstar, where there are dramatic shifts in policy from one Primus to another. From a corporation to a theocractic society, to Instellar Ops, to assassinating scientists to the ComGuards to schism and subsequent Jihad etcetera.
But with the clans they define the relationship between Clan A and Clan B by some incident which happened 120 years ago or whatnot. I'm not sure that having a clan take a consistent, easily-definable stance over hundreds of years makes a huge amount of sense. Maybe some clans sure, where tradition comes in, but other clans would change and evolve more easily. Unfortunately for the clans the only ones that really changed were the invaders, the homeworlds remained static until the War of Reaving when any pretext of history seemed to fly out the window.
It still baffles me for example that the Blood Spirits and Fire Mandrills would not show more cooperation during the period. They were some of the few allies the two clans had and yet I don't see any reflection of that in WoR.
But whatever. It is what it is and it's not going to change (much like the Star Wars prequels)
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While reading through the star adders and blood spirits in crusader clans again one of the things I noticed is that the Star Adders are lead by a badass strategist... who dies almost immediately.
So the idea that this strategic culture he created is going to live on after he is very quickly dead and when strategy is a thought process doesnt make sense to me. At that point they are lead by a sergeant so their being well drilled after that point makes sense.
Maybe he chose all the right people.
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Clan Sea Fox actually. p59 of Warden Clans. Ebbing Enthusiasm.
You also have to consider the cost of an Absorption, which I'm certain everyone's favorite Clan coin-counters would do. The Sharks may not have had the military strength to be able to pull off an Absorption, not without gutting themselves in the process and leaving themselves open to Absorption themselves.
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So the idea that this strategic culture he created is going to live on after he is very quickly dead and when strategy is a thought process doesnt make sense to me. At that point they are lead by a sergeant so their being well drilled after that point makes sense.
Maybe he chose all the right people.
I think he most certainly did choose his people well. He knew who he could count on, apparently. And don't forget, the Star Adders literally lived on his plans for hundreds of years, and the text says as much, all told. Historical: Operation Klondike does him a good amount of justice.
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I think he most certainly did choose his people well. He knew who he could count on, apparently. And don't forget, they literally lived on his plans for hundreds of years, and the text says as much, all told. Historical: Operation Klondike does him a good amount of justice.
It's stretching the idea of believability a bit that Truscott could have accurately planned for the Clans of Kerensky.
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It's stretching the idea of believability a bit that Truscott could have accurately planned for the Clans of Kerensky.
True. His plans mostly seemed to revolve around exploiting the resources of the Kerensky Cluster to their greatest advantage, and building up infrastructure, as well as the basic structure of the Clan and their own inner workings.
The leaders of each era were who had to handle the rest of the Clans.
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A spartanic warrior society does not need a paradise for living. And giving the descriptions in WoR Suppl. they seem to be industrial powerhouses again.
As Cold1 wrote, there seem to be joint researchement efforts and programs.
To the lack of scientists, while many died, this should have broken free whole ranks and new blood unencumbered by old coterie and restart the whole business of researchment anew.
If the warrior caste might even respect the work of the scientists more and shows them proper respect (in limits) the scientists might be more motivated than ever.
The descriptions in WoR Suppl. shows many designs abandoned by the Homeworld Clans. And these are just Omnis. None of the Homies except the Lions can even be bothered with armor forces and increased Protomech production is just another way of saying "My Clan doesn't have a sufficient number of Mech factories and are poor in resource extraction so we are focusing on something else".
The older generation is there to guide the newer ones. With virtually the entire old guard gone, there's nobody to guide the new scientists or even school them on finer points of specific scientific subjects. They have to develop new protocols and processes just to get things done and everyone is focusing on their breeding programs first, so I doubt these scientists would be more excited than the previous bunch. Example: Clan Jade Falcon. The book rightly points out that Annihilating over 90% of their scientists have left their Clan in a scientific desert, and what we see in the Dark Age is a clear legacy of this.
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The older generation is there to guide the newer ones. With virtually the entire old guard gone, there's nobody to guide the new scientists or even school them on finer points of specific scientific subjects. They have to develop new protocols and processes just to get things done and everyone is focusing on their breeding programs first, so I doubt these scientists would be more excited than the previous bunch. Example: Clan Jade Falcon. The book rightly points out that Annihilating over 90% of their scientists have left their Clan in a scientific desert, and what we see in the Dark Age is a clear legacy of this.
Generally correct, but the Homeclans did not kill all their scientists. Many are left and, imho, recruiting actively new ones among the technican caste could be a very promising way to get new scientists.
And as in WoR is written, the real new researchment among the Clans only begun after Tukkayyid. Before they did almost no basic researchment in many scientific areas besides genetics. For the scientists this new beginning was like they had to start from a scratch. Till the WoR there were 15 years, you may think what might be possible what a motivated scientist caste could achieve from 3090 till 3145 ...
That the Clans have ever been numerically far inferior to the IS, but have had a qualitative advantage, imho, has been something I like very much ingame.
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It still baffles me for example that the Blood Spirits and Fire Mandrills would not show more cooperation during the period. They were some of the few allies the two clans had and yet I don't see any reflection of that in WoR.
There were several instances early on of cooperation between the Spirits and a few of the kindraa, but the Mandrills were already in a fractured state at the start of the Wars. They didn't have the leadership, strength, or cohesion to survive much into it. They simply broke apart completely after Sainze was destroyed and faded into obscurity....an ending that befitted that Clan completely.
But with the clans they define the relationship between Clan A and Clan B by some incident which happened 120 years ago or whatnot. I'm not sure that having a clan take a consistent, easily-definable stance over hundreds of years makes a huge amount of sense. Maybe some clans sure, where tradition comes in, but other clans would change and evolve more easily. Unfortunately for the clans the only ones that really changed were the invaders, the homeworlds remained static until the War of Reaving when any pretext of history seemed to fly out the window.
The Invaders changed because they reconnected with the Inner Sphere; the Homeworlds did not, and due to the Clan way of life, either refused to believe the Invaders' descriptions or warily questioned it. As I saw it, the Homeworlds were in a state of stagnant culture; only a seismic cataclysmic event (or series therein) would bring about change.
The friction created by the two cultural shifts - one in progress and adaptation, the other in stagnation and dogmatism - is what brought everything to a head after 3068. There was no way the Homeworlds could remain as they were as long as the Invaders kept a foot in the door. Rather than embrace the changes, they chose the other option - rejection - and it ignited the waiting firestorm.
WoR is not about a bunch of Clans fighting; it's about the fall of Clan culture and Kerensky's flawed vision. In a perfect vacuum, it would work. But in the Battletech story...this ain't no vacuum. As such, the Clans were a machine that tore itself apart from the inside-out. WoR is the chronicle of that explosion.
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Yeah, more I read of War of Reaving the more I don't particularly care for it to be honest. Some of the little things just don't make sense. One example is a Goliath vs Cloud Cobra battle, where the Scorpions held them off on two occasions and then in one instance a shot from a mech takes down a bridge and with it takes half of some Cloud Cobra formation. And then what happens? The cloud cobras trounce the scorpions.
Maybe my mind works differently, but if half of a formation just fell to their deaths I would think that would hurt my chances of trouncing the enemy, not ensuring that it happens.
I'm not sure what example you're speaking of, and don't have the time on my lunch break to look it up right now, but in general Clan combat has plenty of avenues to make this happen.
If this battle is being fought under Zell, the bridge collapsing could motivate the Cobras to break Zell (if it wasn't already broken) and start massing fire, enabling them to win more quickly. Even without Zell, seeing so many of your clansmen taken out with a cowardly attack (shooting out the bridge instead of attacking directly after 2 previous direct attacks had failed) would have enraged the Cobras to the point where they did not care what further damage or losses they took, so long as they won. Also, a sudden change in tactics (all-out attack after holding position for a while) could have caught the Scorpions out of position to be able to stop a concentrated attack from the Cobras , even with superior numbers. And lastly, if the Cobras had bid down their forces initially, they could have called in the remainder of their force, deciding that winning was more important than the loss of honor for calling in more forces.
The descriptions in WoR Suppl. shows many designs abandoned by the Homeworld Clans. And these are just Omnis. None of the Homies except the Lions can even be bothered with armor forces and increased Protomech production is just another way of saying "My Clan doesn't have a sufficient number of Mech factories and are poor in resource extraction so we are focusing on something else".
Each of the abandoned/no longer produced mechs had a specific explanation given for why that happened. In some cases it was the taint of the original designing Clan. For others the factories were all destroyed. And in the waste not nature of the Clans, mechs that duplicated the functionality of other mechs sometimes went out of production to not waste resources.
I'm sure Ben and Paul will back me up on this, but all Clans, even the homeworld Clans, all of them use vehicles in their touman. For most Clans, vehicles are only used in the second line forces or as place holders in front line forces when there aren't enough mechs.
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@Ghostbear, if the Homeworld clans rejected Kerensky's vision, would you say they now follow N'buta's vision?
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On the point about out of production designs, we still have no clue what Battlemechs are in production along with omnis.
Theoretically, the Stone Lions have a Stone Rhino plant. Do they keep making them? Did they convert it to make Blood Asps? We don't have a level of detail to really say what the industrial capabilities of the homeworlds are in 3090. Not beyond less than 3060 at least.
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@Ghostbear, if the Homeworld clans rejected Kerensky's vision, would you say they now follow N'buta's vision?
Never said they rejected Kerensky's vision.
The 'rejection' I was referring to was rejecting the Invader Clans from their safe little universe.
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Each of the abandoned/no longer produced mechs had a specific explanation given for why that happened. In some cases it was the taint of the original designing Clan. For others the factories were all destroyed. And in the waste not nature of the Clans, mechs that duplicated the functionality of other mechs sometimes went out of production to not waste resources.
Very reasonable. IMHO there are far too many designs left among the Hoemclans, fewer would be much better for their logistics.
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I'm not sure what example you're speaking of, and don't have the time on my lunch break to look it up right now, but in general Clan combat has plenty of avenues to make this happen.
I believe he is talking 3078 fight on Hector where a salvo from a Matador dropped half the seventy-third Cobra Guards into the ravine. The survivors declared the Scorpions dezgra before destroying the remaining 1st Cateran Cluster. It was after they were victorious that the Cobras would discover that the Scorpions had been experimenting with blending ELH genes into their Bloodlines and led to their Abjuration. (WoR, p157-158)
As far as the results are concerned, we don't know what condition the 1st Cateran Cluster was before the battle (after having sustained losses in other WoR battles) or how many casualties the unit sustained in the battle before the bridge was destroyed but the biggest factor is probably the fact that the unit isn't equipped for slug matches fielding fewer Mechs in favor of more Elementals and Aerospace Fighters. In addition saKhan Rood had assigned inferior BattleMechs and vehicles to the Cateran cluster prior to the battle after retaking Waypoint 531 (WoR, p130).
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Never said they rejected Kerensky's vision.
The 'rejection' I was referring to was rejecting the Invader Clans from their safe little universe.
I'm not going to lie, I was fishing for info. :)
And there is nothing safe in the BT universe, I think it's cuz of the writers
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The Invaders changed because they reconnected with the Inner Sphere; the Homeworlds did not, and due to the Clan way of life, either refused to believe the Invaders' descriptions or warily questioned it. As I saw it, the Homeworlds were in a state of stagnant culture; only a seismic cataclysmic event (or series therein) would bring about change.
Hmmn, I disagree on the stagnant front. Instead I think it's simply a case of FASA created too many factions and there's only so much word count to go around. So the homeworld clans were all defined by a handful of events over hundreds of years that defined their lasting relationships and remained for the most part 2-dimensional characters. The only real air time they got was during the Great Refusal, and even then the role of most homeworlders was to lose regardless of how skilled they were said to be in the field manuals.
It's akin to the Federated Suns and Combine relationship being defined by Kentares, and even the Draconis combine's early image likewise being defined by Kentares. It worked at the time because of the limited amount of words available. Painted DC as the bad guy, etcetera. But then more work was done and they were further fleshed out.
Anyway, if there are too many factions to give all the factions depth then the number should continue to be pruned down in my opinion.
I'm not sure what example you're speaking of, and don't have the time on my lunch break to look it up right now, but in general Clan combat has plenty of avenues to make this happen.
If this battle is being fought under Zell, the bridge collapsing could motivate the Cobras to break Zell (if it wasn't already broken) and start massing fire, enabling them to win more quickly. Even without Zell, seeing so many of your clansmen taken out with a cowardly attack (shooting out the bridge instead of attacking directly after 2 previous direct attacks had failed) would have enraged the Cobras to the point where they did not care what further damage or losses they took, so long as they won. Also, a sudden change in tactics (all-out attack after holding position for a while) could have caught the Scorpions out of position to be able to stop a concentrated attack from the Cobras , even with superior numbers. And lastly, if the Cobras had bid down their forces initially, they could have called in the remainder of their force, deciding that winning was more important than the loss of honor for calling in more forces.
Or, if half a formation was on the bridge and if that bridge was close enough to the frontlines to be hit by Scorpion weapons fire then it implies the two clans are on different sides of the bridge which makes a sudden counter attack by the now stranded Cobras impossible.
In any case I know there are multiple reasons for why it could happen, but the point is from my reading of it there's not enough information to convince me of the implied outcome.
I think my biggest problem with the book is that I just don't get it. I keep reading but I don't know what's going on because there are too many threads happening at the same time and not enough information on any of them. It's written in such a way that I think you need an intimate knowledge of both the homeworlds and the forces of each clan to appreciate what's happening. I suppose it doesn't help that I read the first half of it months ago and am only picking it up again but I don't think that would really affect my perception of it.
It's like there's a naval battle between two factions and ships are lost on both sides, but in some cases the class of the ships aren't even mentioned so I don't know if it's big or small or whether those losses are important relative to the whole fleet. In most cases I don't even know where the rest of the fleet even is.
Heck at one point, there's a paragraph about the Adders being in a tight spot and their choosing not to tell the Steel Vipers. In another instance not long after we hear about the Adders having the luxury of keeping a naval blockade on the dead world of York. Which is odd because I hear about the Burrocks taking some Adder ships with them, and the Adders fighting the Snow Raven or somesuch and the Adders escorting ships to attack Nouveaux Paris or whatnot and we also hear about the Blood Spirit warships running rampant and destroying one of their enclaves from orbit and yet they're still blockading a dead world (which then destroys a Diamond Shark convoy).
So does it makes sense? I dunno, maybe they have a big enough fleet that they'll continue to blockade york regardless of their other problems but without following and tracking every thread, from initial reading it doesn't make sense. And I could pull out the Field Manual and look things up and follow everything that's happening but then I'm researching the facts as they happen rather than be engrossed in the story and that's my main problem with it. I want to be to able to just read a book and get in the zone and understand it without referencing an appendices or other source material because doing that disrupts the experience.
I think Catalyst did the best they could given the word count and the story needed to be told but it's failed to click with me.
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The Adders had the largest fleet in the homeworlds... 28 ships maybe? I'll get corrected if that's wrong. But enough ships to be in 3-4 places at once.
You're missing dates on all those events as well. Might be pertinent to go back and look at the dates because some of those things happen months apart but only a few systems away. The Adders could easily fight one of those engagements, return to Sheridan to rearm a ship then send it else where.
The interwoven threads and massive number of units serve to give a picture of how massive and all encompassing the wars were. It was all out war and chaos. In some cases clan A beats clan B only for clan C to immediately drop in on them and then beat clan A. In one instance clan B regroups then beats clan C after they beat clan A. It's total insanity, and that was the intent.
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The interwoven threads and massive number of units serve to give a picture of how massive and all encompassing the wars were. It was all out war and chaos. In some cases clan A beats clan B only for clan C to immediately drop in on them and then beat clan A. In one instance clan B regroups then beats clan C after they beat clan A. It's total insanity, and that was the intent.
The insanity was a nice aftereffect; the main reason I didn't do it linearly by Clan was that it was incredibly difficult to write it in that manner (http://benhrome.wordpress.com/2011/07/12/the-road-to-reaving-part-3/).
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It worked out well. Some sections of the book truly do overwhelm you with the chaos. In re-reads I've gone through sections to count how many ships/units fought or were destroyed in a matter of a few pages.
In some places the rapid series of events actually serves to make the reading seem to speed up as the chaos magnifies. In some spots it then transfers into less intense side bars or less chaotic moments. These transitions actually help to feel the chaos.
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Each of the abandoned/no longer produced mechs had a specific explanation given for why that happened. In some cases it was the taint of the original designing Clan. For others the factories were all destroyed. And in the waste not nature of the Clans, mechs that duplicated the functionality of other mechs sometimes went out of production to not waste resources.
I'm sure Ben and Paul will back me up on this, but all Clans, even the homeworld Clans, all of them use vehicles in their touman. For most Clans, vehicles are only used in the second line forces or as place holders in front line forces when there aren't enough mechs.
I stand corrected on the mechs part. But out of the Stone Lions, none of the other Clans use vehicles in their frontline forces i.e. those that actually form the first wave of any renewed invasion and would be the ones encountered.
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Generally correct, but the Homeclans did not kill all their scientists. Many are left and, imho, recruiting actively new ones among the technican caste could be a very promising way to get new scientists.
And as in WoR is written, the real new researchment among the Clans only begun after Tukkayyid. Before they did almost no basic researchment in many scientific areas besides genetics. For the scientists this new beginning was like they had to start from a scratch. Till the WoR there were 15 years, you may think what might be possible what a motivated scientist caste could achieve from 3090 till 3145 ...
That the Clans have ever been numerically far inferior to the IS, but have had a qualitative advantage, imho, has been something I like very much ingame.
I am very excited about new ideas and new developments too, but then I think realistically and realize all the remaining scientists don't just have to jump-start the breeding programs, they have to be involved in rebuilding infrastructure and more mundane day-to-day tasks because of all the destruction. They also have smaller populations to draw the lower castes from, and they have to do everything under closer scrutiny by the Warriors than before. Besides the shattered infrastructure just to keep civilization going, they have to focus on restoring war production just to get their toumans back in shape. After that, before considering new ideas, the Homies will have to grow their people and number of colonies again etc. I think it'll be a long time for the scientists to start new things again rather than fixing what's broke.
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Simple fix to the people problem; make more. The clans don't wait for population growth, they create it.
Why was cleaning up the legacies a priority? Well to make new clean warriors (and just how dumbed down were the genes the last 40 years???). But once they are clean you can make more batches of sibkos. You certainly have some battle hardened vets to train them. We know only about 10-20% will test in as warriors, well there are your lower castes. Most mech and ASF washouts become techs or scientists anyway. Triple the sibkos, triple those populations.
Additionally, test for aptitude early in the sibkos. This dude is struggling to be a warrior but he's smarter than hell, scientist right then and there. No reason to wait for him to fail later.
Increase freeborn breeding. Put your lower castes to work. Have the smart ones make more babies to increase the likelihood of more scientists.
Promote the scientists somewhat like the Sharks do the merchants. I'm sure they will be watched very closely now, but make them important and make lower caste members strive to become scientists.
Getting more people is probably the smallest problem the homeworlds have.
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Also for me, more than anything it was the arbitrary way that the Spirits were killed-off in the appendix that really irritated. It almost felt like the main story got written and then someone realizes there were too many clans left. Same for the Spirits attacking the Vipers. Another clan needed destroying, so lets arbitrarily weaken the Spirits.
However, what is even more irritating is the removal of my favorite clan from the universe completely. You invest time and resources buying Battletech products, and then suddenly you have no reason to do this anymore because your faction ceases to exist. Now if they were defeated and marginalized, getting the odd mention in some Battletech product I could accept that and would still buy product. But to have them wiped out completely! Not cool. Why not let one of the remaining factions absorb them in some fashion, or have the survivors eventually form a cluster in a homeworld clan's galaxy? Anything would be nice, just throw me a bone here guys.
And yes, this is a plea for some continued Spirit presence in some form in the Battletech universe.
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Simple fix to the people problem; make more. The clans don't wait for population growth, they create it.
Why was cleaning up the legacies a priority? Well to make new clean warriors (and just how dumbed down were the genes the last 40 years???). But once they are clean you can make more batches of sibkos. You certainly have some battle hardened vets to train them. We know only about 10-20% will test in as warriors, well there are your lower castes. Most mech and ASF washouts become techs or scientists anyway. Triple the sibkos, triple those populations.
Additionally, test for aptitude early in the sibkos. This dude is struggling to be a warrior but he's smarter than hell, scientist right then and there. No reason to wait for him to fail later.
Increase freeborn breeding. Put your lower castes to work. Have the smart ones make more babies to increase the likelihood of more scientists.
Promote the scientists somewhat like the Sharks do the merchants. I'm sure they will be watched very closely now, but make them important and make lower caste members strive to become scientists.
Getting more people is probably the smallest problem the homeworlds have.
The Home Clans had the smallest populations before the Jihad out of all major factions. Wars of Reaving depopulated a lot. They're not clone factories. Making more people requires a long time, especially freeborns. Consider they had 2 centuries to grow all the populations they wanted yet most Clans only had a couple hundred million by the mid-31st century. Imagine the numbers after Wars of Reaving, which must also factor in the lack of isorla from a typical Clan conflict because of the exterminations and genocides.
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Imagine the numbers after Wars of Reaving, which must also factor in the lack of isorla from a typical Clan conflict because of the exterminations and genocides.
Given my calculations the Homeworlds lost 50-60% of their population due the WoR. Maybe the most serious losses of any conflict in BT universe so far.
However, do the Homeclans need so many people?
Why not let one of the remaining factions absorb them in some fashion, or have the survivors eventually form a cluster in a homeworld clan's galaxy? Anything would be nice, just throw me a bone here guys.
The Adders won the right to absorb the Spirits. while they destroyed anything on the Colleen systems, the Spirit enclaves on Strana Mechty (where their main genetic repository was located) was not reported as being destroyed. So it is likely that the genetic material of the Spirits is now in the hands of the Star Adders.
Who may decide to use them for breeding new warriors for the Adder Clan.
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Highly unlikely. They paid close attention to bombard the Colleen repository to ensure the Spirits would never rise again. To use their Strana Mechty repository would be nonsensical.
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Highly unlikely. They paid close attention to bombard the Colleen repository to ensure the Spirits would never rise again. To use their Strana Mechty repository would be nonsensical.
The Spirits had almost completely untainted legacies. They also had the best Proto legacies. It is worth mentioning that several Spirit Bloodhouse had a long history of being kickass warriors.
Those legacies are worth something. The Adders might not use them but they would certainly trade them. The Lions and Coyotes could both use some more legacies.
I doubt the Adders destroyed them. I bet we see them again.
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Betcha we don't. :D
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The Adders won the right to absorb the Spirits. while they destroyed anything on the Colleen systems, the Spirit enclaves on Strana Mechty (where their main genetic repository was located) was not reported as being destroyed. So it is likely that the genetic material of the Spirits is now in the hands of the Star Adders.
The Spirits' Strana Mechty enclave was 'wiped out' by the Star Adders. Sounds pretty clear to me. Besides which the Spirits were using the Strana Mechty genetic facilities to cleanse those bloodlines that were tainted by the Society.
The Spirits had almost completely untainted legacies. They also had the best Proto legacies. It is worth mentioning that several Spirit Bloodhouse had a long history of being kickass warriors.
The Society tainted several Blood Spirit genetic legacies which is why their Clan Council extended the ban on using the Boques, Campbell, Church and Johns legacies until they were cleansed. As far as the other Clans are concerned, the remaining legacies became tainted by the surviving Spirit Warriors' actions during their final stand in the Colleen system.
Those legacies are worth something. The Adders might not use them but they would certainly trade them. The Lions and Coyotes could both use some more legacies.
The Star Adders aren't going to waste the time and energy to bother checking to see which legacies are clean and which are tainted. Far easier to simply destroy any seized Spirit legacies.
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Betcha we don't. :D
I have a feeling the next time we see the Stone Lions there will be some Spirit bloodnames in there... they already have all their favorite mechs.
The clans desperately need every available clean legacy to grow. I would not be surprised if he see legacies from dead clans show up.
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I once held the opinion that the Star Adders would never let the Blood Spirit legacies go, not to anyone. But that was three or four days ago. ;D I have evolved a bit. Now I'm leaning back toward "I don't know". Taming the Spirit bloodlines through the Lions is a fun concept, regardless if that happens or not, though.
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I have a feeling the next time we see the Stone Lions there will be some Spirit bloodnames in there... they already have all their favorite mechs.
Highly unlikely. The only Spirit legacies that might possibly be used would be those taken prior to the WoR. Given their recent troubles with the Burrocks and the clear refusal of captured Spirit warriors to acknowledge their new Clan, the Star Adders would have no reason to even attempt to take Spirit legacies intact. Not to mention waste the time and effort to determine which ones are still contaminated.
The clans desperately need every available clean legacy to grow. I would not be surprised if he see legacies from dead clans show up.
They have plenty of other legacies to choose from (or trial for) that are far more palatable than tainted legacies from a fallen Clan.
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Pretty sure Archangel has the right of it here. I don't have anything to add other than I agree 100% with him, and because of the reasons he provided. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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The Adders had the largest fleet in the homeworlds... 28 ships maybe? I'll get corrected if that's wrong. But enough ships to be in 3-4 places at once.
You're missing dates on all those events as well. Might be pertinent to go back and look at the dates because some of those things happen months apart but only a few systems away. The Adders could easily fight one of those engagements, return to Sheridan to rearm a ship then send it else where.
The interwoven threads and massive number of units serve to give a picture of how massive and all encompassing the wars were. It was all out war and chaos. In some cases clan A beats clan B only for clan C to immediately drop in on them and then beat clan A. In one instance clan B regroups then beats clan C after they beat clan A. It's total insanity, and that was the intent.
A damaged warship should take months or years to repair, not just a matter of weeks. One hears about ships in WW2 for example that are laid up getting refitted or repaired for large portions of the war, only to come out after months and get hit again or whatnot. WW2 is not battletech the comparison is not without validity.
Either way, personally I didn't find the format to my liking. Of the sourcebooks Catalyst has put out the Historicals for Operation Klondike and Reunification War were my favourites, and I suspect I enjoyed both of those because the focus on specific combatants whether its invasion of a state or specific invasions of each pentagon world.
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A damaged warship should take months or years to repair, not just a matter of weeks. One hears about ships in WW2 for example that are laid up getting refitted or repaired for large portions of the war, only to come out after months and get hit again or whatnot. WW2 is not battletech the comparison is not without validity.
I believe that several WarShips were scuttled because their respective owners didn't have the time/resources to repair them and to prevent a rival Clan from salvaging them.