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BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Kojak on 14 September 2018, 19:05:19
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Freeborns with Bloodnames are extremely rare, as I've always understood it. The only canonical examples that come to mind are Phelan Kell and Diana Pryde. But while researching something in the Field Manuals the other day, I came across something odd: a pair of Wolf-in-Exile Star Colonels who are specifically noted as freeborns in the fluff in Field Manual: Warden Clans, and yet in Field Manual: Update they have Bloodnames. So on a lark I decided to go through both Clan FMs, look for specifically mentioned freeborn Star Colonels, and see if they'd picked up Bloodnames in the interval. I found one other, a Diamond Shark, so now the list looks like this:
- Star Colonel Serret of the Second Wolf Strike Grenadiers, Beta Galaxy, becomes Serret Radick
- Star Colonel Quenton of the First Wolf Strike Grenadiers, Omega Galaxy, becomes Quenton Sender
- Star Colonel Damien of the 23rd Strike Cluster, Sigma Galaxy, becomes Damien Kalasa
Now, look, obviously you could chalk this up to just being something that got missed by factchecking. But is it possible that Diana Pryde set a precedent that other Clan freeborns went on to take advantage of?
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Kev Rosse in the Dark Age is another example. His father was a Nova Cat and his mother was a Republic officer, yet he managed to win a Bloodname. That one’s even weirder since he can’t trace his maternal lineage to the Rosse bloodline.
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Was the Diamond Shark in the MWDA novels that dealt with the Jade Falcons also a freeborn with a bloodname, or am I mis-remembering?
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Was the Diamond Shark in the MWDA novels that dealt with the Jade Falcons also a freeborn with a bloodname, or am I mis-remembering?
She was indeed a freeborn with a Bloodname.
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Kev Rosse in the Dark Age is another example. His father was a Nova Cat and his mother was a Republic officer, yet he managed to win a Bloodname. That one’s even weirder since he can’t trace his maternal lineage to the Rosse bloodline.
I seriously doubt that Alaric Ward can trace his lineage to the Ward line, given that his genetic parents were Kathrine and Victor Steiner-Davion.
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I seriously doubt that Alaric Ward can trace his lineage to the Ward line, given that his genetic parents were Kathrine and Victor Steiner-Davion.
Phelan Kell is a cousin of the Steiner-Davions. CLEARLY it works.
"Uh, Phelan Kell was a cousin via Arthur Luvon and Morgan Kell being cousins. He gets his Ward heritage via Salome Ward. Not really a Ward/Steiner-Davion Link there, JK."
Oh yeah, hypothetical internet person?!? Well...you suck!
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I believe that the real answer is simpler than that: as Alaric's parentage isn't publicly known, he probably has a fake lineage that shows his eligibility.
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I believe that the real answer is simpler than that: as Alaric's parentage isn't publicly known, he probably has a fake lineage that shows his eligibility.
Sure, if you want to go with the CANONICAL answer that makes sense. (Up until he declares himself Archon, that is.)
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Sure, if you want to go with the CANONICAL answer that makes sense. (Up until he declares himself Archon, that is.)
arKhan.
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I believe that the real answer is simpler than that: as Alaric's parentage isn't publicly known, he probably has a fake lineage that shows his eligibility.
I thought that Alaric's parents was Katherine SD & Vlad Ward (about as clear a connection to the Lyran Throne as you can get... assuming you kill off the entire legitimate line)
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I thought that Alaric's parents was Katherine SD & Vlad Ward (about as clear a connection to the Lyran Throne as you can get... assuming you kill off the entire legitimate line)
Nope. The program that resulted in Alaric was Katherine's revenge. His geneparents are Katherine and Victor.
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Phelan Kell is a cousin of the Steiner-Davions. CLEARLY it works.
"Uh, Phelan Kell was a cousin via Arthur Luvon and Morgan Kell being cousins. He gets his Ward heritage via Salome Ward. Not really a Ward/Steiner-Davion Link there, JK."
Oh yeah, hypothetical internet person?!? Well...you suck!
actually IIRC Phelan says during his interrogation scene that Morgan Kell and Salome Ward were distant cousins, and he could trace ancestry back to Micheal Ward (the ancestor of Jarl Ward, the founded of the Ward bloodhouse) on both sides.
this suggests that, assuming the Luvon family is related to the Kells through the same line, that Alaric would have a tie to the Ward bloodline. it would just be very tenuous.
honestly the fact that Clan Wolf never bothered doing a simple paternity test on Alaric prior to his getting the bloodname nomination seems like a major oversight.
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actually IIRC Phelan says during his interrogation scene that Morgan Kell and Salome Ward were distant cousins, and he could trace ancestry back to Micheal Ward (the ancestor of Jarl Ward, the founded of the Ward bloodhouse) on both sides.
Salome Ward's parents were cousins, so he has all his Ward blood through her. Morgan has nothing to do with it.
this suggests that, assuming the Luvon family is related to the Kells through the same line, that Alaric would have a tie to the Ward bloodline. it would just be very tenuous.
Arthur Luvon was a first cousin to the Kell boys and had no relation to the Wards or the Steiners.
honestly the fact that Clan Wolf never bothered doing a simple paternity test on Alaric prior to his getting the bloodname nomination seems like a major oversight.
Why would they? Vlad set the whole thing up and at least some of the Wolf higher-ups knew all about it. His codex shows him as a Ward and the Clans rely on this for knowing who is part of what Bloodhouse. Do they do paternity tests on every applicant for a bloodname?
What reason would the Wolves have to doubt that Alaric is a legit Ward and why would they question the man who has brought them so much glory and looks to bring them even more in the future?
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actually IIRC Phelan says during his interrogation scene that Morgan Kell and Salome Ward were distant cousins, and he could trace ancestry back to Micheal Ward (the ancestor of Jarl Ward, the founded of the Ward bloodhouse) on both sides.
this suggests that, assuming the Luvon family is related to the Kells through the same line, that Alaric would have a tie to the Ward bloodline. it would just be very tenuous.
honestly the fact that Clan Wolf never bothered doing a simple paternity test on Alaric prior to his getting the bloodname nomination seems like a major oversight.
I thought it was that both of Salome's parents were distant cousins, and thus both Wards. Granted, been years since I've read Lethal Heritage, so I could very much be wrong. That would be HILARIOUS if that ridiculously tenuous connection was used to justify it.
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Okay; to the OP: I'm fuzzy as hell on why the Clans allow this, as it seems to go against the spirit of their trueborn culture. I mean; clearly they do allow it, but the why baffles me. Are there any instances in the fluff of some freeborns getting shut down hard for trying to go for a bloodname they may have been entitled to? Or do we just know of the successes?
Back off topic; geeze we have a lot of incest in this universe and that's ignoring the ick factor of SibCo coupling and the cringe-filled dialog in Lethal Heritage. We really ARE game of thrones in space!!!
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Okay; to the OP: I'm fuzzy as hell on why the Clans allow this, as it seems to go against the spirit of their trueborn culture. I mean; clearly they do allow it, but the why baffles me. Are there any instances in the fluff of some freeborns getting shut down hard for trying to go for a bloodname they may have been entitled to? Or do we just know of the successes?
It should really bother the Clanners every time it happens, especially in the Dark Ages era when the Bloodcounts of the Bloodnames are quite low. The competition for each Bloodname should be even more fierce than we saw during the Clan Invasion and after.
Why the Clans allow it isn't really known. The Wolves allowed it with Phelan because it was part of Ulric's plan to mess with the Invasion. Diana was allowed because it was an experiment by Marthe Pryde to see what would happen (though to be fair, since Diana was a product of a Pryde/Pryde pairing, she's probably closer to a clone than a standard Trueborn). For those we have stories. We don't really know why its happened with the other characters. Is it allowed...frowned upon, but allowed now? Are the character that have it special considerations? We just don't really know.
One thing to keep in mind that while the whole Trueborn aspect is a major part of the Clans, the whole "might makes right" philosophy is another major part that's just as equal as the genetic tinkering. Its quite possible that those freeborns with Bloodnames are just that good.
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It was more common in the early days. For example: Clancy Truscott, third Khan on Clan Star Adder, was the freeborn son of their first Khan, Absalom Truscott. So there’s always been precedent, it just wasn’t used much because of the relative social positions of freeborn and trueborn and whatnot.
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IMO . . .
While it started off this way- originally you could claim a bloodname if either parent was from that line, later it became maternal. Freeborn vs Trueborn . . . well, its a lot easier to decant 100 trueborns in 9 months rather than have Daddy bloodname spread his genes enough so he even gets close to that crop size in 9-10 months. As more and more of the touman is made up of the 'temporary measure' trueborns they begin to relegate freeborns to 2nd class for all the reasons we are given- probably aided by the scientist caste (they gain some power/influence) which might be the genesis of the scientist created Society. Thus the trueborn bias becomes unofficial law over time among the Clans.
Move forward to the Invasion, no longer are the Clans developing in isolation. Combat, and thus the chance for recognition, among the Invaders is wide spread which means who gets to fight is no longer as political as it was in the Homeworlds stasis for decades. The Clans already used freebirth and unblooded genetics for paternal use to keep the genepool varied (Fire Mandrills IIRC, Zane's fate in Path of Glory) especially if they were proven to be outstanding warriors. Gaining a bloodname was offered as a reward to Jaime & Joshua after all, and Phelan's story goes back to the beginning of the Clans IRL.
I am not sure why people are so surprised- the two Wolves were known since FMU came out and Wolves asked questions at that time, I would have to check to see if I saved them from whatever forum version when I get home. All I remember is that yes, it was intentional and in one case his combat record blurb was pointed at directly. This was followed by the Bears creating a bloodname in Magnusson while the Wolves at least created Brahe during the Jihad. Reaving the Klondike bloodnames and creating new ones IMO DOES fit the Clans because it introduces more competition into more aspects of their culture.
The decrease in bloodname counts b/c of Stone has sort of fallen off the radar, unfortunately we have not been told when it was reversed except IIRC a single line about how it went while they all started re-arming in the 3130s.
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Hammer me to mush if I'm incorrect but the exact terms Joshua and Jamie was told that TPTB would create the Bloodname Wolf, which would be TWO new Bloodrights for Clan Wolf (thus an entirely new amount of competition and thus a larger Wolf Touman... had things gone as planned in 2999). You could say that those Bloodnames did exist once WD began full time production after the 4th succession war, only to stop after the turn of the next century... you could argue that ALL of the Honornames that WD used and propagated are considered Freeborn Bloodnames?
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Didn't the Dragoons have their own Trueborn gestation program?
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I would not call them 'Freeborn' bloodnames but rather that the Dragoons instituted their own breeding program. For all intents and purposes they became 'Clan Wolf Dragoons' since they had much of the cultural trappings for others to see after 3050.
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While it started off this way- originally you could claim a bloodname if either parent was from that line, later it became maternal.
Only in the first generation.
you could argue that ALL of the Honornames that WD used and propagated are considered Freeborn Bloodnames?
Not really, since eligibility for an Honorname is not determined by genetic relation to anyone.
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Trueborns took control pretty quickly, like I said figure out how quickly they would fill up the touman vs freeborns from bloodnamed.
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All this brings up a subsidiary question: do the legacies of these warriors get used by future generations as unremarkably as any other Blooded trueborn? For example, do we know of any 32nd-century sibkos bred from Diana Pryde's legacy?
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All this brings up a subsidiary question: do the legacies of these warriors get used by future generations as unremarkably as any other Blooded trueborn? For example, do we know of any 32nd-century sibkos bred from Diana Pryde's legacy?
Which gets even more confusing when you consider the Ghost Bear Touman which consists of all those Rasalhague forces: in the FM3145 I'm pretty sure many of those warriors are freeborn and that begs the question in the new Dominion do their genes get added in?
Just a randomly related thought....
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Didn't the Dragoons have their own Trueborn gestation program?
They had Canisters yes.
But they were not using Blood Named 800 Genetics in their program. (that we know of)
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But is it possible that Diana Pryde set a precedent that other Clan freeborns went on to take advantage of?
There has always been precedent, even Phelan's trial mentions that it had been 50 years since they adopted a Freeborn who was descended from a Blood Name, but to become bloodnamed requires being VERY good & having support.
Most of the Freeborn sons/daughters of Warriors will still have to go through 2nd tier sibkos & test out & being "freebirths" even if from warriors, they wouldn't likely have a lot of support from the Blood Named to get nominated.
Phelan being from the IS & Cyrilla having no heir really set things in motion to push this "rare" event right up into the limelight.
That he had support from Ulric & Natasha was HUGE in actually getting him his blood name shot too.
The Falcons basically only pushed for Dianna because they "wanted their own Phelan".
So yes, I'd say the 2 of them may have triggered quite a few blood named out there to reconsider backing a Freeborn who happened to be the child of a Bloodnamed.
Its not as rare as it seems, after all, the Wolf Brothers were both from Bloodnamed "Radick??" stock IIRC, on their Father's side.
If it had been their Mother who was the warrior, they wouldn't have had to compete for a new "Wolf" name w/ the Dragoon Mission but instead could have fought for a Radick lineage.
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Which gets even more confusing when you consider the Ghost Bear Touman which consists of all those Rasalhague forces: in the FM3145 I'm pretty sure many of those warriors are freeborn and that begs the question in the new Dominion do their genes get added in?
Just a randomly related thought....
Not really the same thing.
Freeborn warriors are common as hell, nearly every clan uses them in 2nd line forces, but they don't get to compete for Blood Names unless they are also descended from a FEMALE BLOODNAMED warrior.
All those FRR warriors are just normal Freeborn, but not descended from one of the 800, so no they can't fight for a bloodname.
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It was more common in the early days. For example: Clancy Truscott, third Khan on Clan Star Adder, was the freeborn son of their first Khan, Absalom Truscott. So there’s always been precedent, it just wasn’t used much because of the relative social positions of freeborn and trueborn and whatnot.
Any Natural Born children of one of the 800 who tested out as a Warrior was eligible for the parents lineage (single or double if from 2 warriors).
There are several examples of this for children that were born well before the start of the Canister Breeding.
And as Rooster mentioned the first Generation of Canister Babies was allowed to compete for either of the parents names.
2nd Generation Canister Kids had to compete for the Maternal lineage.
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If you think about what has to happen to create the type of situation now days for a Freeborn to Win a bloodname you get why its so rare.
1. You have to start out with a Female Blood-Named Warrior who has to fall in "Love". Which right off the bat is not the norm.
2. She has to decide that she actually wants to go through child birth naturally. So, another non-norm in that culture of warriors.
3. She has to see the Scientist caste about removing whatever it is that keeps Clan Female Warriors from having babies in those sibkos as teens.
So, Clan Grade Norplant has to be surgically removed like Peri had done.
4. She then has to get pregnant & give birth to a healthy child. (Not always the easiest thing medically)
5. The Child has to blessed with the great genetic potential to test out in a warrior Sibko.
6. The Child has to WANT to be a Warrior. (Maybe they want to be an Artist or a Merchant or a Scientist, like their other parent... etc etc)
7. They have to pass every test through training well enough to never test down into a lesser class. Even super athletes have bad days or suffer injuries on live fire courses after all.
8. Assuming they actually test out into the Warrior Class, they can't be just good but must be GREAT because that is the only way they are likely to get the attention of a Blood Named member of the house for nomination &/or survive the grand melee &/or survive the 5 rounds of eliminations to win the blood name.
When you think about how great (lucky) a Blood Named warrior is compared to the rest of the warriors & then add in the extreme rarity of getting an eligible freeborn to even be born & make it that far..... Well, it makes sense when they say how incredibly rare it is.
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If you think about what has to happen to create the type of situation now days for a Freeborn to Win a bloodname you get why its so rare.
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As we see with Kev Rosse, though, some of the Clans no longer require maternal descent for Bloodname eligibility. Rosse’s mother was a Spheroid and his father was a Clanner yet he got a Bloodname.
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The Maternal does not have to be a warrior- Dianna's mother was a washout, and b/c she was dunked in the lower castes was a possible breeder . . . the book says she took out her own blocker (mechanism has always been vague) but later material indicates that those who are sent to the lower castes are expected to breed and thus as part of their washout process the females are made fertile.
Rather they have to be descended from a bloodhouse maternally.
Also children are not genetically tested- they look for the fighters among the freeborn to put into the sibko programs. Its part of what allowed their system to continue- the Clan's system removed those who might be future rebels and instead made them part of the system.
The reason we do not get freeborns gaining bloodnames before the invasion is the same reason they did not become high-ranking officers. The Clans' limited fighting means only those with the most pull end up with chances to distinguish themselves- and the freeborn are second class citizens.
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a good question would be how far back that link can be for it to be valid. i mean, Phelan had a link through a lot of generations back to someone who pre-dated the clans, but Phelan probably wouldn't have even gotten a chance without people in high position bending the rules for him. so that doesn't tell us much.
so where would the clans draw the line? grandmother was a trueborn? great grandmother? haven't had a warrior in the matrilineal line since the clans got founded?
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Forgive a player with only limited understanding of the clans,
But this is a culture where ultimately might makes right, yes? It would seem a Freeborn with sufficient ability to call out and kill anyone who stood between him and a bloodname would end up in a position to try for and in theory win one?
Or is this a case where no amount of martial ability (in theory the whole point of the clans) is able to overcome the clans own prejudice and hypocrisy? One would think that a freeborn who was able to better trueborns would be in theory -exactly- what the clans would be looking for, honor, and want in the genes of the mext generation.
But as I said, other than a book here or there, I dont really think clan.
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Generally, a warrior has to have a certain amount of standing to bring forth such a trial- either a Bloodname or the sponsorship of someone who does have one. That's how Vlad was able to get a Trial of Grievances against Vandervahn Chistu: Elias Critchell sponsored him. Without that sponsorship, Vlad would have been SOL.
And even if that hurdle can be overcome, that doesn't guarantee a fair trial: Clan leadership can and will rig things against someone they don't like, up to and including sabotage in a few instances.
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And in this instance, there would be little incentive for most Bloodnamed warriors to sponsor such an individual, since they'd typically stand to lose power and prestige in the event of said warrior's success.
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The Maternal does not have to be a warrior- Dianna's mother was a washout, and b/c she was dunked in the lower castes was a possible breeder . . . the book says she took out her own blocker (mechanism has always been vague) but later material indicates that those who are sent to the lower castes are expected to breed and thus as part of their washout process the females are made fertile.
Rather they have to be descended from a bloodhouse maternally.
Yeah, that hit me today, what can I say, it was late last night when I was posting & my brain wasn't quite working clearly, hehe.
Still, the further away from a true born bloodnamed you get the thinner those genes & the less likely of getting a shot at the big leagues.
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I get that, I look at posts on occasion and wonder how the structure ended up that way . . .
As far as 'distance' from a bloodnamed warrior, its really questionable and depends on the Clan IMO. We know the scientists order pairings between the lower castes and that children are also born outside those ordered pairings, the Clan non-warrior culture does not distinguish between them IIRC . . . but as each sibko washes out a majority of the wannabes, that is a lot of trueborn genes that keep flooding into the freebirth genepool. Its going to affect it the same way the preponderance of trueborns quickly outnumbered freeborn in the first generations of the toumans. And the stage of washout is going to affect things . . . a 8 year old Elemental washing out b/c they are unsuited to life as a infantry trooper (cannot be still, keep quiet, whatever- and how do you judge that with a kid?!) will not have been indoctrinated with the superiority of trueborns and iron wombs (ick, natural birth!!) compared to a washout that got as far along as Peri? I mean I imagine they get dumped into a creche for all the other washouts of that generation who tested down to scientist/tech/merchant/laborer or whatever. Those creches will promote pop expansion as a 'duty' to the Clan.
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The Foxes are the only Clan that concerns itself with collecting wealth. The other Clans operate under a planned economy (except for the Ghost Bears, who've given their merchant caste freer rein following the absorption of the FRR). Heck, prior to invading the Inner Sphere, the Clans didn't even have an actual currency.
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Heck, prior to invading the Inner Sphere, the Clans didn't even have an actual currency.
Sure they did: the Kerensky, and to a lesser extent, work credits.
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Sure they did: the Kerensky, and to a lesser extent, work credits.
And while individual warriors may not have collected Kerenskies/credits, their reputation was linked to gathering/increasing assets aka enriching- the Clan.
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Which is the exact opposite of what was being talked about.
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These are things a shrewd Freeborn could facilitate, for instance, by extraordinary skills out of the BattleMech, that might compensate for a weaker genetic history than a 1st or 2nd generation of descendant, provided they can turn in a minimum standard of Trial performance, of course, to make the field.
The Sharkfoxes would probably be down with some of that.
On a tangential note: Is there a policy, custom or technical limitation about how long after the warrior's death a legacy can be used? Is there a reason that the Dominion couldn't create a sibko from Ragnar Magnusson and Sandra Tseng?
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Do we know bloodnames who were created from exceptional good Freeborn warriors.
Kell is one I remember (Ulric Kerensky did it).
Anything else?
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Nope, Kerensky and other prominent founders get mixed back in over time . . . minor founders? Bit more iffy.
Magnusson (GB)
Brahe (WW)
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Diana was allowed because it was an experiment by Marthe Pryde to see what would happen
I just love the idea of Marthe trolling her own people and then sitting back like this;
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.E0lAydTW07GrNscc-iX2_QHaD4%26pid%3D15.1&f=1)
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I just love the idea of Marthe trolling her own people and then sitting back like this;
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.E0lAydTW07GrNscc-iX2_QHaD4%26pid%3D15.1&f=1)
I suspect that she had a few other motives. Diana was the child of two trueborn, so that makes her somewhat palatable to the other trueborns. But at the end of the day, she was a freeborn, which means Marthe can hold her up to the all the 2nd line freeborn like Horse and say, "You are important members of Clan Jade Falcon. Work hard! Kick Wolf Clan butt!Have the right parents And one day, someat least one, maybe less of you will earn your shot at immortality in the breeding program!"