BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => Ground Combat => Topic started by: Reaved on 20 May 2020, 14:07:10
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I'm new to using non-Mech forces and I'm trying to work out what role Battle armour plays on the battlefield? Infantry seem to be pretty good at having a light footprint but providing good, diffuse, short range firepower (or, with towed guns, direct firepower at long range). Conventional vehicles seem to be pretty good at providing all types of firepower (and can be very mobile with the relevant motive type). But I'm not sure where Battle armour fits into the jigsaw?
In a related vein, if you were putting a BA battalion together in 3150 (faction of your choice) to be used in an independent role, what designs would you use and what roles would they fill?
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Oh boy, I love these sorts of questions!
and now that I have tagged it, I will give you the short answer (TLDR) for the next post.
Battle Armor are BTU's true infantry and as such they take and hold ground in such a way that even humanoid walking tanks (mechs) cannot. If you assign infantry to do it IRL, BA do it in BTU.
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Now for the longer post . . .
What specifically a set of BA does is dependent on two things- movement profile and weight range.
Movement profile
Does it jump and does it get 3+ hexes of movement as a option?
Yes
Most useful IMO is the suits that can jump for 3 or more hexes which is how we were introduced to the original BA and still gold standard- the Clan Elemental. The Elemental suit meets several design thresholds- can take a 10 point hit, generate a +3 to hit (+1 for BA tactics, +1 for jumping, and +1 for 3 hexes or more), and has a high burst damage value especially with later weapons like ERMicro & APG. The IS tried to duplicate it, which resulted in the IS Std and faction specific Raiden, Cavalier, and Longinus- the later is the closest but b/c its built by the IS is unable to jump before it clears its missile packs though none can take the same damage. Later with Recoilless Rifles, BA gauss rifles, Plasma Rifles, and MagShots the IS designs gain some range over the original trio of weapon choices- SL, MG and Flamer. I will explain below why jumping for 3 or even as some suits do 4, is important in a combined arms strategy.
No
Some of my favorite BA for campaign/play purposes do not jump but have 3 MP, it just limits their ability to be deployed and involved in attacks on mechs. Trinity (Asterion, Theseus, whatever the Cappie name is), GDL Standard, and a few others get that +1 TH from their movement which helps with their longevity and can be used as a trooper but unfortunately they are just not as good over all. Typically though for not getting 3 hexes or more of movement you are talking about area via heavy weapons in the suit designs- though some of them jump. A lot of the suits the IS came up with in the late 50s and 60s to improve the throw weight of their BA fit in this category- heavy & assault sizes that carry lots of SRMs or guns to create a Hunchback style bubble where a enemy player does not wish to go if they do not want to take damage. Consider the Grenadier a lighter and easier to place SRM Carrier. The Kanazuchi is a ML turret in its original version. Use your transport assets to place them in key terrain on the map and you can control the shape of the battlefield.
Deployment (Why jumping or not being assault size is good)-
No matter what, BA are generally slower than mechs and even a lot of armor options. They are still faster than most infantry, but it does not help when you want to use them against tanks and mechs. Enter the mobility options . . . Omni-Mechs and vehicles can load BA without suffering any penalties though it does take a MP to load and a MP to unload which must be done at specific times and IIRC the BA must be done with their movement- to be honest, I do more maneuver warfare with MM than table top. Table top I usually have to just unload from pre-loaded carriers- only a few times have I had enough table time to move a transport to pick up and re-deploy a BA squad somewhere else on the table. Assault BA or suits lacking the proper manipulators will not be able to mount Omnis.
Certain BA however CAN load on standard mechs or vehicles- the BA themselves must mount the equipment called 'Mag Clamps' to be let them hold on. It does slow down the mech but its often still faster than having them move 2 or 3 hexes across the map- especially if its attached to the right vehicle. The Harasser hovertank moves 10/15 . . . they could redeploy a Marauder BA squad at the speed of 9/14 after taking on the suits, quickly allowing a player to adjust to changing conditions.
Besides the +1 TH, jumping also allows any BA loaded on a VTOL or other aerial craft to deploy the BA without having to land. Landing makes the VTOL vulnerable (loses its VTOL TH bonus) as well as typically absorbing multiple (3 or 4 MP) movement points- or even risking collision with terrain. Ideally your VTOL flies over a heavy wooded hex that your Grenadiers jump out to occupy- having to land, like with a Ogre squad, means it take 2 turns for the non-jumpers to occupy the terrain and makes them extremely vulnerable when landed. Its a comparison of +4 TH (+2 heavy woods, +1 BA tactics, +1 jumping) for the Grenadiers vs the Ogres getting a +1 TH (BA tactics) sitting on open terrain where the VTOL landed. If its a larger VTOL like a Shun or Karnov BA, there is a good chance it also places OTHER assets (BA or infantry) at risk if someone shoots at the VTOL. This contributes to making jumping being one of the most important design factors in BA.
Tactical uses
Pursuit & Screening-
In my experience, often with larger play areas and bigger (company+) battles, BA execute several different missions very well. To me, as a Clan BA player, pursuit & screening are the most important role though its part of a aggressive BA play style. One example I often use was a battle of a medium nova (5 mechs & 5 Elemental points) against a heavy or perhaps assault IS company set in early 3060s BV balanced. My slowest mech was a Timber Wolf E as part of a typical Wolf style force- probably had a Ice Ferret and pair of Adders with another Clan med. We started off out of range so everyone was running to close, especially as my Wolf force out-ranged the IS company. Once I started to be in range, but before he had too much in range, I dropped the Elementals off the Omni-Mechs behind a Level 1 difference in a area that had several 'holes' in the hill where the LOS would be blocked under MM's double blind rules. The Wolf mechs started walking in reverse to keep the range open- to close the range on my mechs he was going to have to pass where I dropped off the Elementals. He knew where the Elementals dismounted, but it was taking his 3/5 and 4/6 mechs a few turns to get to the Elemental line so they were able to reposition. Several points jumped out to flush their SRM racks, building on the damage my lasers and missiles had already caused but they also caused that player to try to decide what he shot at and how he moved to avoid the Elementals- which helped me keep the range open and his weapons out of play. He moved his pristine Banshee (7S? 5S?) into one of those 'holes' in the hills to benefit from the partial terrain. A Elemental point leaped afterwards into the same hex, surprising him . . . The Elementals had not fired a shot and were the last point to be revealed. My Elementals successfully made a leg attack and for the crit roll got a 12- leg blown off. The pristine mech dropped into that pot hole and was unable to effect the rest of the battle- and with the damage the rest of his company had suffered started a general retreat. The terrain had that single elevation hill, several of those pot holes and a few light woods . . . it had slowed the IS company's chase of my Clan mechs, but now when they had to retreat it slowed them even more- only being able to walk backwards on mechs that have a walk of 3, 4 or 5 MP means they cannot avoid or pass through terrain very easily. My Elementals kept jumping forward in pursuit, firing SRMs while they lasted and their SL/MG/Flamers when in range and trying to get more leg attacks on the slower assaults. No more legs blown off, but I did get a few minor leg crits from the Elementals before the battle was over. The point here is that Battle Armor are very good for creating a obstacle against a force that is trying to rush your forces. I have been on the other end, trying to get around a Lyran player's Fenrir BA to get to send my flankers in at his fire support mechs- but those Fenrir run 4 hexes and come with ERSL, SRMs and MLs to be mobile bubbles of pain.
Against players who field slower machines on anything but a Kansas wheatfield, 3/5 & 4/6 speeds, your 3+ jumping BA have a chance to keep up, once they are in range, and contribute to your mechs/tanks attacks. IF a mech gets knocked down, they can close on it to keep up the hurt since it will spend at least 2 MP getting up. To avoid your BA an opposing player might have to run which hurts their targeting numbers if they have to turn, pass through woods/rough, or climb any elevation- now that 3/5 that ran only moved 4 hexes so they get a +2 for their firing numbers while your mechs/armor only have to deal with a +1 TH. Sometimes that is enough- the threat of what your BA can do to them if they do not move to avoid them- jumping lets you ignore the terrain they have to move through at cost. This just gets better when you start talking about BA that can jump 4 hexes like the Void and Clan Med BA, now you are a definite threat to the 3/5s and start to threaten 5/8s.
More tactical uses would be spotting, seizing objectives, urban warfare to be covered in later posts (out of time atm)
What not to do-
Take a single BA squad/point to determine how they are used
Some folks seek to try out BA by bringing a single squad/point . . . and then complain when its wiped out for very little gain. Usually it means they positioned it wrong- unloaded in the open within 9 hexes of 2 or more heavy/assault mechs and probably too early as an example. Or it had no transport so that Grenadier was marching across the board 2 hexes at a time. For battle armor to be successful you want to deploy them en mass- the obstacle example above had five points of Elementals which let me create a line 15 or so hexes long across the map on the most direct route for his company. To learn BA, I think you need to bring 3 squads/points complimentary suits- or even the same suit so you do not have stat complications.
Swarming is a Bad Idea
Swarming mechs is a really flashy in the books, but it is a attack that takes 2 turns for effect and can be stopped before you get to attack. When I am facing BA, I WANT them to try to swarm my mechs . . . because that means they are not shooting at me or attacking my legs. I have drowned BA in depth 1 and 2 water hexes that were trying to swarm . . . or taken them into a fire to cook. Besides the typical stop,drop & roll defense.
Unload them in a flat open area
Mentioned above, it is usually one of the classic blunders. Your BA are at their most vulnerable when they unload from transport. Very few suits are designed to deal with it- jumpers can get a +1 if they leave a VTOL, but otherwise they are all restricted to the +1 BA tactics. This is especially bad if they are in range of infantry. Ideally you want them behind a 1 level terrain difference when unloaded, be it a hill or down in a sink hole. The exception to this is the Purifier and the few other mimetic armor BA- they get bigger defensive bonuses if they do not move, and unloading does not count. Like most rules, there are times to break the rule but it takes a experienced BA user to know when and what payoffs to decide on. Dropping a single unit in a area is also not as good as dropping multiple units. Now if someone gets the chance to fire (won initiative and have last move) you at least force a choice and they may try to split their fire rather than eliminate a single squad/point- this also helps protect the transporting unit. I like it when someone tries to shoot at my Ice Ferret that dropped off the Elementals, the Ice Ferret has a +3 or +4 TH for their movement while the Elementals will just have the +1 for BA Tactics. Split fire at the targets? Now you added a +1 TH for the secondary targets . . . and anything (mech, veh or BA) with Stealth Armor cannot be secondary targets.
Pay attention to the opponent's weapon selection, fire is bad
For most BA you want to stay away from area affect or heat damage- this means artillery like Arrow IV or snub nosed pieces like the Sniper or Long Tom Cannons and such things as Plasma weapons & inferno SRMs. Artillery does their damage to each individual suit rather than single hits. Hitting a Elemental point with a AC/10 means a single trooper takes 10 pts of damage. Having a Sniper round land next to your Elemental point means EACH trooper takes 10 points (or whatever splash is) which makes them nearly dead since they take 11 points of damage. It will kill medium IS suits and severely damage the heavier ones. Plasma Rifles and Cannons can hit BA at ranges most cannot respond, and they will do variable damage (roll a set number of dice to get the total) to the whole squad/point. While it may not wipe out the whole squad/point, it will push most into critical condition. Infernoes will kill suits as well- I think its for every 3 inferno missiles that hit, 1 suit dies . . . one time an opponent dropped off his Fa Shih squad (just the +1 TH for BA tactics) which let me place my Harasser Missile Platform 3 hexes away (3 Gun, +2 move, +1 BA tactics) which let both SRM6 racks hit, for a total of 12 inferno missiles. The whole squad was wiped out without ever doing a thing. Next game, he killed the Harasser fast, lol.
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+1 to Colt Ward's post above.
I definitely agree that you need more than one BA squad to be effective because of their small combat radius, take at least 3 and a way to get them to the fight (VTOLs work but any form of transport that goes faster than 3 is valid). Your optimal Battle Armor scenario has broken terrain, slow enemy units, mobile friendly units, and lots of cover. If you have at least 2 you can really play to the strengths of BA. Put them in a place your opponent has to attack or where the big slugfest will occur with respect to LOS and mobility. Like Colt said if you have omnis drop the BA off before you are truly committed because you will miss that 1 MP when maneuvering in a firefight.
Battle Armor make great finishers because they can easily swarm a prone or heavily damaged mech to finish it off and let friendly units move on to the next target. Another great use of them is as the burn team, arm them with flamers, make the enemy sweat, and use their swarm or leg attack to deny the enemy their full move. This is why I consider the Salamander the best BA in the game but I've done this with good success with IS equivalent units as well. Make sure your non Fire Resistant BA don't start in a wildfire hex though or they might die and if you have Fire Resistant BA make sure they can get into one because having smoke and forest added to their defense is amazing.
Battle Armor also adds a nice psychological impact on your enemy player because being swarmed sucks even though doing it is really hard (see Colt's post above). Suffering a leg attack also sucks, they are hard to pull off but when they do they are beautiful; especially on assault mechs that normally bank on heavy leg armor to protect their stability and meager mobility. Nothing kills an assault mech faster than a couple failed piloting rolls so kneecapping them is nice.
This also brings up the favored prey of Battle Armor, Assault Mechs, favored principally because they are slow. A decently mobile Battle Armor can probably catch them if they have to go around or through obstacles. Their often few weapons are powerful (many weak weapons will kill BA very fast due to the nature of damage allocation. Avoid anything with a more than 3 medium lasers, an LBX, or SRMs) and frequently long ranged which is fine because you should be using cover until you can threaten that mech.
When you get close you should jump into a side hex which reduces the threat from those big guns which should have other targets. Jumping into cover Battle Armor can often get a +5-6 bonus to defense which is very hard for a mech to get at close range. If the assault mech decides to shoot at your Battle Armor they are not pounding on the rest of the unit which is a victory in itself, one lost battle armor is better than a critical on a medium mech.
This defensive play and shooting all those smaller damage groups gives you a better chance of a possible side torso critical; there might be explosive things in there or a mere consolation prize of an XL or heavy weapon critical either way that is a great turn for the Armored Infantry. The rear hex also works but most BA weapons aren't strong enough to punch through rear armor in fewer than 3 turns and some assault mech have flippable arms or rear mounted weapons so leave that for backstabby lights.
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If you aren't just playing with canon suits designs, BA can be extra devastating. You can design mobile medium suits for major crit seeking at a decent range, with 3-4 light machine guns plus an AP weapon with 6-hex range. And it turns out the 9 armor on standard IS suits is intentional suboptimal design from the devs. You can easily fit 10 armor on a basic IS suit if you go with a flamer or MG instead of a S laser. The difference between 9 armor and 10 armor is like night and day.
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I often think of BA as mobile minefields, and Colt's certainly right - don't deploy single squads. Go big, or go extinct :thumbsup: As such, they control areas, force you to make choices, or just nibble away at you.
It comes down to the range with which you can engage. Hauberks, for example, are slower than slow, but they can engage at up to range 21. So you can't afford to ignore them, unless you like having an LRM-20 (or many!) taking pot-shots. Coronas or Kopis have half that range, but can move around a bit more usefully. The faster BAs can hide & wait for an exposed flank, a damaged target, or the like, and then bounce into range (short as they usually are) for the opportune shot.
And like minefields, they ablate. Expect losses. If you're using them right, the opponent must dedicate some of his force to remove them from play - which means your more traditional units are getting a free pass on that turn.
Given expecting losses, preserve your BA by using every scrap of terrain to your advantage. Press for hidden unit rules. Dedicate your traditional forces to hitting any flame-equipped unit. And if the opponent has useful artillery, tell the BA to stay hidden :)
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Not ready to post the second part, but worktroll hit on something I wanted to blow up for a bit . . .
Successful BA employment requires combined arms cooperation. The idea behind combined arms is that the weaknesses of one type is covered by the strength of another. Your mechs or armor (tanks are best platform for ballistic- LRM, ACs, Gauss- fire support) uses their ranged weapons to punch out the Plasma Rifle/Cannon equipped at a range that most BA cannot reach- with the idea you do it before the BA gets melted. The BA returns the favor by getting in the face of assault mechs and slow heavies you have damaged to fish for crits or slow them down by avoiding the BA so the crushing close range firepower or physicals do not land on your mechs or tanks.
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One thing I'll emphasize that Colt brought up is spotting. Namely, Infantry don't get attacker movement penalties, therefore they don't pass on those penalties to other people. Infantry, including BA, make excellent spotters for that reason.
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Clans VTOL battle armor is a beast. It can follow 3/5 battlemech without any transport, no facing on infantry means they are able to move zigzag unlike normal VTOLs, and are very hard to hit consider they are also able to have Stealth Armor. The only problems are they are Clans exclusive and there are not much canon models for it.
And I found that battle armor is the best candidate of rapid-fire machine guns. Although it doesn't bring a pack of punch to break a part, but its damage output is respectable.
Mimetic Armor is also a good feature, for they can dismount in front of the enemy without a problem, but remember that such battle armors are virtually 'immobile' unit or they can't exploit the armor's strength.
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Battle Armor are BTU's true infantry and as such they take and hold ground in such a way that even humanoid walking tanks (mechs) cannot. If you assign infantry to do it IRL, BA do it in BTU.
I disagree with the idea that BA are BTU's "true infantry". The problem with that statement is that BA are a hybrid of BTU's conventional infantry and a mech. BA tend to have the mobility of an assault mech and take damage in a similar fashion. The damage taken is at a 1:1 ratio, unlike conventional infantry.
Conventional infantry and BA are both capable of moving through buildings in the same manner. They also share the ability to perform Anti-Mech attacks. This means that they can both enter and occupy buildings and threaten mechs in the same way, which makes them rather similar outside of the difference in mobility. However, the reason that I disagree with the statement is based upon how they take damage.
BA are treated like miniature mechs when it comes to damage, which means that the weapons that your assault mech is carrying are going to be just as threatening to a unit of BA as it is to a mech. An AC20 is a bit overboard when it comes to attacking BA, but a gauss rifle or large pulse laser is going to be enough to destroy most BA designs without wasting much damage. With conventional infantry those weapons are going to be rather useless, and the smaller variants are going to be laughable.
Conventional infantry basically demands that you bring AI weapons, or to modify the ammo that you bring to include AI rounds. These options can decimate conventional infantry, but it forces the opposing player to modify their choices to account for presence of conventional infantry, unlike BA who are going to take the full force of non-AI focused weapons and or ammo variants. This means that the problem that BA proposes is answered in the same manner that one would deal with a mech or a tank, but conventional infantry requires a different solution. This difference increases the conventional infantry's ability to hold ground, thus making it BTU's "true infantry" as a +1 modifier does not truly shift BA away like system match ups.
This means that BA's role falls somewhere between that of a vehicle and conventional infantry. It brings some of abilities of conventional infantry to the table and couples it with an armored unit's mobility, which is increased by riding on an omnimech. The difference in Battle Value and how they take damage are the downside of BA as you can get several jump platoons for the cost of a standard BA squad. This is not to suggest that one or the other is better, as I personally prefer to use a combination of both as a means of adding additional pressure to an opposing player. It forces them to decide if they should use their standard weapons against my mechs and vehicles, or to fire them at the BA that are coming after their kneecaps? Perhaps they have smaller weapons that they are willing to throw at the BA, but the conventional infantry are also being dropped off or are closing in, which do they target? Once they expect to see both in a future game do they bring the small weapons to use against the BA, or do they bring AI weapons? While they could bring SRMs and load infernos, they must question if those SRMs would be better off being fired at the armored units, if so then do they use standard or infernos? While it may not seem like much when reading it, adding a few more questions to be answered on the spot while sorting through information about their units, my units, and attempting to understand what I am up to and how to counter it does stack up and generates pressure.
TL:DR; I'm bored, on a break, and writing something other then my dissertation. ;D
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Just played an ATB mission against some Ghost Bears and they brought battle armor so I brought some to counter them.
I learned one thing from that game though.
With the new option in MegaMek to have flamers do heat and damage on a hit BA with flamethrowers are really scary to mechs.
Send something with a machine gun to the same hex as a mech to do a leg attack and have the flamer BA in the hex or one away to light up the target is a much nastier thing than it was without the rule. If you are lucky you get 4 or 5 two point hits that each also adds 2 heat. A mech wants to run away from the suits shoving bombs into it's leg joints but the mynomer isn't responding cause you got roasted but weren't expecting it, cause you didn't any infernos near by.
Obviously they can also set fires and commit war crimes on PBI as well as they used to, but mechs now need to be wary of what I used to think was the weakest base suit type.
I would love other people's thoughts on how to use flamer BA effectively, to up my game.
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One thing I'll emphasize that Colt brought up is spotting. Namely, Infantry don't get attacker movement penalties, therefore they don't pass on those penalties to other people. Infantry, including BA, make excellent spotters for that reason.
And this is an even stronger argument for squad deployment of conventional infantry. Spotters everywhere! :D
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I would love other people's thoughts on how to use flamer BA effectively, to up my game.
Use Salamanders if you are playing Clan.
You double up on the firepower with a 1 turn roaster over the shoulder for sweet secondary burn. You can easily spike a mech into shutdown danger territory. A full Point of can do 20 heat with their flamers plus another 10 from the infernos for an average of 18 if they go all out and a sustained average of +12 heat which is pretty close to the max heat from external sources. In a pitched battle these can turn the tide in your favor by slowing or at least forcing the opponent to use less weapons to stay cool. With how hot many clan omnis get these little things are horrors. They make their own smoke cover if you use them in the woods (and you should) plus the mental image of a squad of these battle armor walking through a wildfire is so amazing. I cannot say even begin to say how fearsome these little suits are.
With the IS you don't have as many options their 4 man teams with its single flamer, battle claw, and non-fire resistant armor (in most eras) limits your options a bit compared to the BT Firebat. I deploy them in large six man squads to give you +6 average heat on a hit. Not as astounding but it can be the difference between a targeting and movement penalty since most IS mechs go to 4 after weapon heat or only incur heat from moving. I use them to deny enemy jumpers territory since they are more likely to be running hot. A squad of these behind an assault or slow heavy might make someone think again since they don't want to be put in a dangerous spot on the heat curve because many of the best are designed to jump in, Alpha, jump away to cool down. At the very least its a couple fewer lasers in the back out of caution which might make all the difference. When they are not doing that they can be burning woods or buildings, incinerating infantry, spotting, or anything Battle Armor is normally pretty good at.
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Just played an ATB mission against some Ghost Bears and they brought battle armor so I brought some to counter them.
I learned one thing from that game though.
With the new option in MegaMek to have flamers do heat and damage on a hit BA with flamethrowers are really scary to mechs.
Send something with a machine gun to the same hex as a mech to do a leg attack and have the flamer BA in the hex or one away to light up the target is a much nastier thing than it was without the rule. If you are lucky you get 4 or 5 two point hits that each also adds 2 heat. A mech wants to run away from the suits shoving bombs into it's leg joints but the mynomer isn't responding cause you got roasted but weren't expecting it, cause you didn't any infernos near by.
Obviously they can also set fires and commit war crimes on PBI as well as they used to, but mechs now need to be wary of what I used to think was the weakest base suit type.
I would love other people's thoughts on how to use flamer BA effectively, to up my game.
Even now Flamer is the least heat threat in the game. Inferno SRM is the best, and even Plasma Rifle is more problem consider its range and damage. BMM just make it usable against battlemechs. It is true that Flamer is the best cheap close range anti-infantry weapon, though, and BMM allows the sidearm a reason on mech to mech battle.
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. . . and even Plasma Rifle is more problem consider its range and damage. BMM just make it usable against battlemechs. It is true that Flamer is the best cheap close range anti-infantry weapon, though, and BMM allows the sidearm a reason on mech to mech battle.
Which does not apply to BA?
You have to be careful with carrying infernoes . . . they CAN be hit if you have not fired them off from BA, and they will kill your BA if the missile gets hit before it fires.
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Which does not apply to BA?
You have to be careful with carrying infernoes . . . they CAN be hit if you have not fired them off from BA, and they will kill your BA if the missile gets hit before it fires.
Flamer is the most deadly weapon against all infantry save for BA with Fire-Resistant Armor, of course. I just want to say that its primary purpose is an anti-infantry weapon.
And, yes, Inferno ammo is very dangerous to carry as well.
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Flamer does the same damage against BA that it does against mechs and vehs IIRC. Its plasma and inferno, they do more.
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Flamer does the same damage against BA that it does against mechs and vehs IIRC. Its plasma and inferno, they do more.
Well, I thought that Flamer cause the same damage to the BA as it does against conventional infantry, because both of them are considered as infantry, but wasn't it? Is the extra damage only applies to the conventional infantry? Is it also applied to the MGs and small/micro Pulse Lasers as well?
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BA doesn't take burst fire damage from AI weapons. at 4d6 to a BA squad you might as well not use them unless they had fireproof armor
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The only weapons, using a TacOps rule, that do burst type damage to BA are the King David LG and Cappie's BA plasma rifle . . . I THINK Bearhunters do too? They fluffed some of the weaker weapons in TacOps to give them more power.
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Oh... Thanks. I was misunderstood that it also cause the same damage as it does against CIs.
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I have issue with Salamanders, well with the magic Fire Resistant Battle armor armor.
It feels too broken for the universe it is in. Heat is probably the most deadly thing in the Battletech universe crippling mechs, and decimating their pilots. A pilot burning to death from inferno gel in his cockpit is one of the most feared things in the fluff, and no amount of heavy plates of armor makes any difference to your survival.
Then the clan comes out with these man sized suits covered in new fire resistant armor, and it is completely immune to weapons that make mechs quake? Even though both in universe and in reality the best to deal with someone shooting fire at you is to douse them in fire, and watch the volatile ammo cook off.
Then they scale up the armor for mechs with Heat Dissipating armor and it is garbage. The mech, the king of the battlefield, is severely hampered by putting this armor on, while the man sized version can walk through a forest fire and bathe in inferno gel with no worries.
It just breaks the universe for me, and I have a hard time using units with armor I want to stay as far away from as I do from FASAnoimics.
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The only weapons, using a TacOps rule, that do burst type damage to BA are the King David LG and Cappie's BA plasma rifle . . . I THINK Bearhunters do too? They fluffed some of the weaker weapons in TacOps to give them more power.
Yes, Bearhunters do as well.
Ruger
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I have issue with Salamanders, well with the magic Fire Resistant Battle armor armor.
It feels too broken for the universe it is in. Heat is probably the most deadly thing in the Battletech universe crippling mechs, and decimating their pilots. A pilot burning to death from inferno gel in his cockpit is one of the most feared things in the fluff, and no amount of heavy plates of armor makes any difference to your survival.
Mechs generally don't care about external heat. Indeed there is a hard limit on how much external heat can effect a Mech. I have recently had to do some research on running Mechs through thick burning forests and frankly, the trees bother them more than the fire.
Mechs do care about internal heat. Heat from a Mech's internal systems can reach horrific levels and really ruin their day. An engine hit bothers a Mech more than a dowsing in napalm.
External heat mainly serves to throw off finely balanced heat levels and make internal heat dangerous.
In contrast battle armor does not produce heat but is vulnerable to damage from external heat.
It is worth noting that vehicles lack the environmental sealing of Mechs and is vulnerable to external heat as well.
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Area Denial — Placing BA units on or near highly desirable hexes can deter or prevent enemy units from occupying this valuable real estate. Example would be tops of hills that make good fire support positions.
Block/Restrict Movement — Placing BA units on or near the best avenues of movement can slow down enemy units or force them to take less advantageous paths. Examples would be valleys/canyons between hills/mountains or roads between woods/buildings.
Cut Off Retreat — Placing BA units behind enemy formations can slow down or prevent enemy retreat, essentially acting as an anvil to the rest of your force’s hammer.
Fix Enemy Units — Dropping BA units near slower enemy units can tie them up as they waste fire, movement, and physicals trying to destroy, avoid, or brush off the BA. Done well, this can asymmetrically distract or even cripple a large, high value, even command mech or combat vehicle with a much cheaper BA unit.
Dislodge Enemy Units — Dropping BA units near sitting enemy units can force them out of position. Examples would include infantry inside buildings or fire support/artillery units behind cover.
Ambush Enemy Units — In scenarios that allow hidden units, pre-placed BA can surprise enemy units with point-blank attacks, anti-mech attacks, or massed fire from multiple hidden BA units placed close together.
Tag-Team Enemy Units — Mechanized BA can work with their carrier, typically an omnimech, to gang up on a single enemy unit or divide and conquer two enemy units. The BA can dismount and fix an enemy unit while the carrier provides fire support or moves to threaten the enemy units rear or weak flank. Similarly, BA can dismount to fix one enemy unit while the carrier takes on another, ensuring that neither gets ganged up on. Sometimes these combinations complement each other through types of damage. For example, the carrier may do crippling, hole-punching damage while the BA may finish off enemy units with critting damage.
Spot for Artillery/Indirect Fire — Some BA carry Light TAG to spot for Arrow IV Homing warheads. Single BA can also be very inexpensive spotters for other types of artillery or indirect LRM fire.
Scouting/Recon — Some BA carry Light Active Probes and/or are fast enough to quickly sweep an area for hidden enemy units or other threats/targets, saving your more valuable units from ambush.
Mission-Specific Roles — In some scenarios, BA are useful or critical for completing mission objectives. Example would be an extraction raid where someone or something relatively small or inside a building must be retrieved intact.
Key to all of this is positioning and movement.
Some scenarios allow pre-positioned units (hidden or otherwise), and BA should be considered for this in combination with some of the roles above (area denial, block/restrict movement, ambush).
But other scenarios and roles do not lend themselves to pre-positioned BA. In that case, BA usually need to be deployed from carriers, either omnimechs or combat vehicles with infantry bays.
Although they exist, very few BA units are fast or mobile enough to keep up with friendly or enemy forces on their own.
Hope this helps.
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Yeah, that brings something up. Battlearmor is less effective than it can be unless you're running combined arms to transport it. In the clans, that means omnimechs to play battle taxi.
The inner sphere, OTOH, has an inexplicable dearth of fast omnis. Raptor, Firestarter, and Owens is pretty much it; plus Malak and the jumping Pretas if you're playing WOBbie. Most transport will otherwise be done by hovercraft and VTOL. Plan your TO&E accordingly.
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The Inner Sphere's lack of stigma against using VTOLs and fast hovercraft in combat probably contributed to the lack of fast omnis- why go to the expense of designing a light mech to haul BA when you can use a Bandit?
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The Inner Sphere's lack of stigma against using VTOLs and fast hovercraft in combat probably contributed to the lack of fast omnis- why go to the expense of designing a light mech to haul BA when you can use a Bandit?
It's still really odd that the niche is that empty. There are two IS omnis that move 3/5, (plus two celestial) and two that move 7/11 or better. (plus another celestial.)
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Remove the Celestials, different paradigm . . .
You could also say that is why the Mag Clamp system was developed- the Cappies were one of the last creating Omnis, especially since they were unable to get the 1st Gen as imports.
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Remove the Celestials, different paradigm . . .
You could also say that is why the Mag Clamp system was developed- the Cappies were one of the last creating Omnis, especially since they were unable to get the 1st Gen as imports.
They did have access to Blackjack omnis, but those are better for infantry support rather than getting anyone anywhere in a hurry.
Cheers,
LCC
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I too have just started to explore BA in the game and this thread is full of great information on their uses. What is the preferred type of transportation for foot BA? I was planning on using VTOL as they seem much more maneuverable compared to ground vehicles.
The more terrain there is the better VTOLs seem to me, can use LOS blocking to safely deploy the BA units.
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Well, you will want it for each time you deploy as a rule.
One of my favorite designs is the Blizzard Hover APC- 9/14 speed, 6t of cargo space, and a LRM5 in a turret to throw smoke at a pretty good BV. Armor is beer can levels, but that is the trade off- not sure even FF would improve it much- with a ICE engine so you have some logistical concerns. The Jihad era Saxon is better, 10/15 with 5t cargo though its weapon choice is worse (MG), and I think it has more armor with a FCE for a bit better logistics burden. Of course, Omnis are also a great option Epona, Hephastus, Owens, Manteuffel, or even Bolla when covering a road are pretty good.
For me BA transport is about the speed to get it into position- be it in BV balanced scenarios or campaign . . . with that said, in my campaign that has really used BA & transports are limited to what is on the open market and timeline. I really really want a couple of Main Gauche IFVs, if I ever get heavy or assault firing platforms like Grenadiers then a specialist Prowler would be a great for what it can offer- amphib, LRM support and electronics.
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Fuel Cells have shorter range than ICE for some reason... fuel logistics is not their advantage...
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Fuel Cells have shorter range than ICE for some reason... fuel logistics is not their advantage...
Except that it uses water . . . which is easier to access than refined hydrocarbons and will not require time to alter ICE to the different formulas a individual world uses.
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Aren't most military ICE vehicles fluffed as being able to burn just about anything from ethanol to kerosene?
Still, with fuel cells all you need is water and a fusion engine, both of which are relatively easy to come by, while a force using ICE vehicles for a long-term deployment may or may not have trouble sourcing fuel supplies after a while.
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Aren't most military ICE vehicles fluffed as being able to burn just about anything from ethanol to kerosene?
Oh, it will burn just about anything . . . how well they burn it and what it does to the engine & maintenance cycle is a different story from what I was told. IIRC the fluff, BT's military ICE's go one step further where they seem to be able to be programmed or modified to accept different quality fuels without as many problems- in my mind I read that to be it could shuffle between things like mo gas and diesel with some prep time.
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Once you crack the hydrogen, you still have to shuffle it around to the vehicles that need it. Fusion engines don't need to do that dance.
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Its already been touched on by folks who have used BA more than I have :) but it bears repeating that Elementals are a tremendous help in a Clan vs. IS engagement.
The IS will typically outnumber and/or outweigh the Clans, and will be working hard to utilize cover and close as quickly as possible to overcome their (typically) shorter ranged weapons. This ends up playing right to the strengths of the BA, as the IS will be closing fast right into their short ranges or into the thicker terrain that the BA favor. Clan Omnis are usually fast enough to deploy BA in a good spot, and then keep the ranges open after that to get maximum synergy from both units.
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Once you crack the hydrogen, you still have to shuffle it around to the vehicles that need it. Fusion engines don't need to do that dance.
Which is part of why I was not comparing them to the logistical burden of Fusion engines, instead saying the FCE are easier on the logistics than a ICE.
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As long as you have easy access to electricity, sure...
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Electricity is one resource in Battletech that's rarely in short supply.
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Except when it is... ^-^
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Dropship engines, aerospace fighter engines, small craft engines, battlemech engines, some vehicle engines (just the fusion), HQ elements setting up Ops Centers . . . remind me again, how it is a problem to get electricity as part of a military force? I want to say its fluffed that BA recharge from mechs and vehicles.
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It is. Omnimechs and omnivees have external ports for battle armor they're carrying to recharge on.
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It depends entirely on your force. If your backwater militia only has one lance of 'mechs across the entire force, that could be a problem.
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For me at least battle armour has a few useful roles.
Role 1: Semi-Mobile Minefield/Area Denial- Battle armour can be scary as hell and while they're not particularly mobile in a mech-scale combat they can still do a lot of damage to anything they can catch whether that be by swarm/leg attacks or the battle amours mounted weaponry. A wise opponent will therefore either have to avoid them or devote resources to killing them. Resources they can't use on my main force
Role 2: Point defence- As above but battle armour tied to defending an objective. Even better if it's an objective that the enemy has to come to you to take. Battle armour excel in this role.
Role 3: Sweeping up- battle armour is great for finishing off cripples and allows you to free up your battlemech forces for other duties.
Role 3.5: Ablative armour for my Omni-mech Battle armour is cheap, omni-mechs aren't. A point/squad of BA clinging to my omni-mech might be the difference between it taking a hit that kills it and one that lets it win the day. Sure it costs you BA troopers but those are cheaper and easier to replace.
Role 4: The suicide charge Pack BA into a fast moving transport (Maxims or Karnovs are ideal.) Charge said transport into the middle of the enemy unit and drop BA directly on top of them. You'll probably lose the transport and maybe the BA as well but they'll slow down your foe immeasurably.
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Role 3.5: Ablative armour for my Omni-mech Battle armour is cheap, omni-mechs aren't. A point/squad of BA clinging to my omni-mech might be the difference between it taking a hit that kills it and one that lets it win the day. Sure it costs you BA troopers but those are cheaper and easier to replace.
This exploit has thankfully been nerf'd and has been for a while.
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This exploit has thankfully been nerf'd and has been for a while.
Yeah, they are far more useful shooting at your enemy than protecting you from them. Any Clan Mechwarrior that wasn't willing to have their mech be shot at would washed out in training or been reassigned to some backwater Solahma for cowardice. You are a WARRIOR! You fight, and you better fight hard otherwise you dishonor yourself.
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It depends entirely on your force. If your backwater militia only has one lance of 'mechs across the entire force, that could be a problem.
That kind of militia force will rarely have a lot of battle armor to recharge, though.
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A post-Jihad AFFS Light Combat Team is supposed to have a reinforced battalion of 'Mechs next to a full regiment of battle armor infantry. Quite a lopsided ratio. But it also has lots of non-'Mech vehicles and some of those have fusion engines too.
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Every fusion engine helps, but you need quite a few to avoid logistics bottlenecks.
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Is it against the rules for BA to load on an LAM in airmech mode? That's sad if true. (Just tried this on Megamek and it didn't let me.)
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Not knowing the specifics of LAMs- have not bothered even though I was a big Robotech watcher as a kid- the suits would need MagClamps . . . and BA cannot externally load on OmniFighters and IIRC there was a ruling that excluded them from being external on a VTOL even- which means both Mags and if we ever get a OmniVTOL.
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Yeah, the suits I was using were magclamp suits. It makes sense if they're not allowing VTOL riders, those two should stand or fall together IMO.
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AirMechs have hands, though... one should be able to pick up at least one, if not two suits. Granted, you'll have to house rule it (since TW only addresses embarking whole squads), but it does make sense. Personally, I think that would be a perfect explanation as to why IS BA uses four suit squads: one carried per 'mech in a lance (with or without clamps).
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- LAMs can only carry mechanized battle armor in BattleMech Mode. If the LAM converts to any other mode while transporting battle armor (or while being swarmed by hostile battle armor), the battle armor unit is automatically forced off in the process and suffers damage equivalent to a Level 2 fall.
Aside the problem that LAMs are cannot be constructed as OmniMech, it is not possible to apply Mechanized Battle Armor rule to the LAM with AirMech mode.
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Mechanized BA is the "one squad per 'mech" rule. Look at the rules for carrying cargo in TW, and the expanded picking up units rules in TacOps.
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I don't think that picking the battle armor rule on TO can picks enough number of battle armors. LAMs are up to 55 tons, so they are can't become heavy or assault so all they can carry is three armors. But the number of troopers in an IS BA squad is 4 and ComGuard is 6.
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By the way, I found that machine gun with Rapid-Fire mode(that is an option rule in TO) would be a very weight efficient weapon for the battle armor - especially for Light MG that have good range compared by the others and still have similar damage output with its bigger cousins. But is there the other weight efficient BA weapon option to against battlemechs?
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I'm only advocating one or two suits at most (and only PA(L) for two). The real thing holding this idea back is the stacking rules, and how to reconstitute a squad if they're carried by other units that can't all be in the same hex.
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A post-Jihad AFFS Light Combat Team is supposed to have a reinforced battalion of 'Mechs next to a full regiment of battle armor infantry. Quite a lopsided ratio. But it also has lots of non-'Mech vehicles and some of those have fusion engines too.
I´d hardly call an LCT a "backwater militia", which was what the poster I was responding to was talking about.
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Who's calling it a backwater militia?
Colt Ward challenged the room to describe a force that might not have enough fusion engines on hand to recharge battle armor in the field. Daryk brought up the backwater militia, which may have only a few fusion engines. You pointed out, reasonably, that they don't have much battle armor, either. So I started wondering what other organizations actually have the highest ratio of battle armor to 'Mechs or other fusion vehicles. The LCT, with that regiment:battalion ratio, came to mind. That's a lot of battle armor.
I'm still not sure if it's a problem or not. As I said, they also have lots of other fusion-powered vehicles. I suppose it comes down to where your fusion engines are and how many you can assign to recharging that battle armor.
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- LAMs can only carry mechanized battle armor in BattleMech Mode. If the LAM converts to any other mode while transporting battle armor (or while being swarmed by hostile battle armor), the battle armor unit is automatically forced off in the process and suffers damage equivalent to a Level 2 fall.
Aside the problem that LAMs are cannot be constructed as OmniMech, it is not possible to apply Mechanized Battle Armor rule to the LAM with AirMech mode.
Can't BA swarm a landed Airmech? If I recall, only transforming instantly dislodges the tin plated ticks. Just flying away in Airmech shouldn't do it. What are the rules for swarming a WIDGE?
That and I always felt the whole, "BA can swarm up on an enemy mech that is trying really hard to shake them off, and hold on like burdocks, but they can't ride a friendly mech," to be a rather arbitrary rule.
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Fluff is, its more to hold on the BA have to make tears in the armor/exterior of the mech since they lack the grab points of Omnis. So I am going to try to punch the tips of my claw into that seam in the armor to hold on to a enemy mech b/c I do not care about causing minor damage . . . but I do not want to do that to a friendly mech in a normal tactical situation.
It does make me wonder for strategic movement if a vehicle or mech cannot treat them as external cargo under those rules- imagine, individual Grenadiers strapped down to the rear deck of a Myrmidon in low power mode on a route march!
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I'm also a bit surprised that the Kirghiz C hasn't come up yet. Granted I don't follow the aero stuff too close, have any other fighters or omnifighters been built with cargo/BA/Infantry space? Or is dropping Elementals like bombs another FASA dead end? I suppose the rules would be more in line with deploying BA from a drop ship, though...
Later TROs start saying "Infantry Bay," but the others say "Cargo," "Cargo(Infantry)," and the old 3025 Revised actually says "Passengers" for the Packrat. Do the current rules distinguish between them, or is it just assumed that cargo areas have fold down seats, like a C-130?
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It does make me wonder for strategic movement if a vehicle or mech cannot treat them as external cargo under those rules- imagine, individual Grenadiers strapped down to the rear deck of a Myrmidon in low power mode on a route march!
"If you guys don't quit hitting each other back there, so help me, I will PULL THIS TANK OVER"!!
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I am disappointed that a unit can only dismount one unit of infantry, and the dismounted infantry can't do anything at all on that turn. Only if these problems are solved, I think that battle armor would be more useful than it does. For now all they can is just a replacement of infantry - that is hold the ground. Well, yes, and free battle armor grip for non-OmniVehicle.
It is true that most problems on this post are also shared with Conventional Infantry. But still it is not so good I think.
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Its a stacking rule issue . . . IIRC the superheavies that transport can unload to surrounding hexes . . . and VTOLs w/jumpers may get to drop 2 squad/points.
Most transports however only have the option for 1 squad/point.
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I just want to know if a BA squad can use field guns.....after all, any wargamer can tell you the importance of Toad Guns.....
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I would love to get PAL or Exoskeleton field gun platoons . . . move 2, fire during the movement . . .
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Hmmm... Field Guns need SPAs too... hmmm...
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Hmmm... Field Guns need SPAs too... hmmm...
No, they don't. Field guns are already pandering to people who want more WWII in battletech.
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I just want to know if a BA squad can use field guns.....after all, any wargamer can tell you the importance of Toad Guns.....
They cannot.
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Thank you to everyone who has contributed (and who may in the future). The wisdom shared in this thread is invaluable (for me, at least). I'd also like to thank the writers of the various 'Battle armour of the Week' articles in the 'Fan Articles' board section. What an amazing resource those articles (for all fields) are.
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BA can't use field guns, but they can use BA Tube Artillery and BA LB-X Autocannon... ^-^
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BA is an infantry force multiplier, just the way a MG team multiplies the offensive capability of a squad or body armor increases their survivability.
What isn't as obvious is the durability of BA as opposed to leg infantry. An infantry company carries X number of days in food and water. An infantryman wearing BA has the same demands as a leg infantryman. How long can a BA suit operate without needing a charge, is it still 24 hours? That isn't much of a duration, in a tactical environment, as the clock starts the moment the BA is unplugged and a unit cut off may be in trouble.
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Are such things really a concern in a game where few battles rarely last longer than a couple minutes? After all, this thread is asking about tactical roles, not strategic, so campaigns aren't a worry here.
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Even then it can be mitigated . . .
. . . but that might be a new topic! What strategic role does Battle Armor play?
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Are such things really a concern in a game where few battles rarely last longer than a couple minutes? After all, this thread is asking about tactical roles, not strategic, so campaigns aren't a worry here.
I've had campaign battles, even raids, last days. Sure, a battle may be a series of skirmishes as in BT set battles but only amateurs plan for ten turns of fighting followed by guaranteed R&R -as OPFOR, I would never allow the players any rest, if I could avoid it. The worst campaign players were those who expected to only fight for a couple of minutes at a time, they'd run out of ammo and took risks just to end a scenario without concern how that scenario carried on to the next battle, which could easily begin 30 seconds later.
Operation Market Garden (1944) had airborne units tasked with taking and holding a series of bridges until 30th Armored Corps relieved them in 3 days. The battle ended 9 days later with most of the British airborne troops, out of supplies and munitions, surrendering in Arnhem. The delay wasn't part of Monty's plan. A large number of tactical events eventually tie into strategic results and most tactical plans fail to survive the onset of battle.
As a Clan player, I have knowingly sent Elementals on one-way missions, where I didn't expect them to return -That's what they were for.
As a GM, I had no qualms about dropping players into impossible situations, especially when they didn't bother to ask the right questions.
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As a Clan player, I have knowingly sent Elementals on one-way missions, where I didn't expect them to return -That's what they were for.
As a GM, I had no qualms about dropping players into impossible situations, especially when they didn't bother to ask the right questions.
Are you gentler to players who do ask the right questions?
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...campaign...campaign ...
. . . but that might be a new topic! What strategic role does Battle Armor play?
Hint. Hint. C:-)
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Well, campaigns are about tactical use for strategic objectives . . .
I am not sure if we mentioned marines or even securing the insides of buildings for objectives. They started to create rules for it in Combat Ops as just applied to marine boarding actions- but I was using the rules for say BA or infantry trying to fight their way into bunkers or other target buildings.
BT has had the occasional scenario (Focht on Tukayyid) and fiction (Bryant on Melissia) about discovering/attacking into bunkers . . . but mechs cannot get into them so infantry or BA would have to be sent down the hole to fight through the defenders to secure the objective. So unless you were working it out in a RP environment with a dungeon crawl through all the levels and any branching tunnels then Combat Ops and later book's abstract roll-offs are the way attackers ground down defenders to take a objective.
The trick there is some of the best BA for fighting in the confined spaces like tunnels or aboard spacecraft are not generally as useful on the open battlefield. So if one of your mission objectives is to capture a bunker complex that has . . . oh, planetary defense center where the commander & local super noble are holed up . . . you can punch through to a entrance but if all you have remaining of BA would be say Kanazuchi or Kopis they would not do as well as flamer or other AP weapon equipped suits. Heck, having armored gloves or manipulators would also help some.
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To the above,
This is why I love Salamanders and other Fire equipped BA. Multipurpose terrors on the field and in bunkers. Just imagine if those Inferno SRMs were Thermobarics, ah that would be such beautiful carnage
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TacOps explicitly applies those boarding rules to combat within buildings, as well as large support vehicles, I believe. :thumbsup:
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I thought so, but yeah, it was a common sense use of those space boarding action rules.
While I like the Salamander Alpha, the BMR heat change cut into its effectiveness . . . and now you are left with a BA suit that has a really short range compared to other modern suits- especially on a battlefield where a tank or mech could degrade the BA before the bunker entrance is secured.
IIRC the most effective weapons were things like the Flamers & AP wep mount . . . but recoilless rifles, MagShots, AP Gauss, KD Light Gauss, Support PPCs and Plasma Rifles are effective in field battles but are more likely to damage what you are trying to captures.
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Are you gentler to players who do ask the right questions?
Never. But they get answers that may help them make better decisions. I've had a player run into minefield and neglect to inform other players, who consequently ran into the same minefield. It isn't up to the GM to remind players that they are on the same team.