BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: tassa_kay on 11 August 2023, 11:08:34
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I think it's high-time we have a dedicated Jaguar thread in here now that they're back, so here it is!
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I'm excited to see new schemes. I've got a metric ton of Jags minis painted up and I'm really hoping they're usable as is.
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I'm excited to see new schemes. I've got a metric ton of Jags minis painted up and I'm really hoping they're usable as is.
Picts please!
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As a fan of the cartoonishly evil classic jags and the revamped nu jags I am excited!
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I'm excited to see new schemes. I've got a metric ton of Jags minis painted up and I'm really hoping they're usable as is.
Did you see the GenCon diorama already? I figure you have, but if not, the Jaguar units are gorgeous.
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I'm excited to see new schemes. I've got a metric ton of Jags minis painted up and I'm really hoping they're usable as is.
I got a Cluster-ish of Delta-ish Galaxy painted & made a point about them mostly being there for Invasion-era games but then had to add an after-thought thanks to a few books. Glad that they're back into rotation, even if it means I should probably finish painting the last Trinary.
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Hells yeah! Long years passed with me thinking my favorite Clan was gone forever, but in 2023 here we are. What a world! What a time to be alive.
Having now seen the diorama, it looks like Alpha's scheme is a lock, hopefully Beta and Delta make the transition over as well, though there are a few 2nd line schemes that look like fire too. I will never not love Nu thanks to MechCommander, and the CSO artists have recently given us some updated looks at both command keshiks, Jaguar's Den and Shroud, that look absolutely gorgeous as well.
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I really hope this means that we get Warhawks back on the MUL inside the Inner Sphere.
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Pfft, forget the Warhawk... let's see some Iron Cheetahs in Jaguar colors!
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Pfft, forget the Warhawk... let's see some Iron Cheetahs in Jaguar colors!
I am trying to paint some up for my shroud keshik and maybe for the Jaguars heart unit I have been laboring to build for the fall of huntress campaign
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Pfft, forget the Warhawk... let's see some Iron Cheetahs in Jaguar colors!
Iron Cheetahs are Warhawks that are better in literally every way so I am fully behind this.
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Picts please!
(https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2019-02/1550986923_8_.jpg)
(https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2019-02/1550987090_15_-untitled_fr125.jpg)
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Well played, Natasha, well played.
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Ah, Wayne Reynolds artwork.. always a pleasure
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Iron Cheetahs are Warhawks that are better in literally every way so I am fully behind this.
The Iron Cheetah has an inferior hat!
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The Warhawk needs a tassel hanging down from one corner of its top torso so it looks like a proper mortarboard.
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Always loved those Clan designs with the protective armored canopy over the cockpit assembly.
With so many battles observed in Ishiyama and other cave complexes over the years, Spheroid 'mech designers should have thought of that idea long ago independently.
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Given the choice between integral mobile overhead cover and a clear angle to eject I'd definitely rather be able to eject safely.
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The Iron Cheetah has an inferior hat!
Lol! I can imagine a clan engineer shouting this in the lead up to hands being thrown
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It will be interesting to see how much the New Jags take from lessons learned as the Fidelis and from "the road of pain". At least on the limited information in Surrender your Dreams and Forever Faithful the case system seems less strict. Wonder if they are still exporting computer chips and other high end tech? If my memory serves me that's how the WoB tracked them down and assumed it was Wolverine's at the very end of Forever Faithful.
The Fidelis trained all warriors as infantry first then progressed through armor, mechs etc. In theory combined arms will be more of a focus for them now?
I'm also holding off on painting a bunch of minis in case color schemes or units change (hoping they don't change too much). Still working through the pile of shame so its not a big deal, Horses, Ravens and some mercs to keep me busy.
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I really hope this means that we get Warhawks back on the MUL inside the Inner Sphere.
Closest (and only) vendor is a very long trip away and is not keen on selling but if Jags bring production specs for Amaroks or Iron Cheetahs to trade they might start feeling more generous
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I would not hold my breath. The 3250 intros make it very clear that Warhawks "have not been seen on the battlefields of the Inner Sphere since the Jihad".
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I would not hold my breath. The 3250 intros make it very clear that Warhawks "have not been seen on the battlefields of the Inner Sphere since the Jihad".
That wasn't the 3250 intros, that was the Masakari's write-up in Rec Guide 20.
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I hope we see the new Smoke Jaguars as an elite cluster (maybe reinforced cluster) similar to the Death Commandos.
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That wasn't the 3250 intros, that was the Masakari's write-up in Rec Guide 20.
It was also in the 3250 introduction to TRO Clan Invasion.
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Closest (and only) vendor is a very long trip away and is not keen on selling but if Jags bring production specs for Amaroks or Iron Cheetahs to trade they might start feeling more generous
Trade, you say? If these Jaguars are true to their style, loyal to the old ways, they'll show up and trade nothing but beatings to reclaim the pride OmniMech of the Clan. :smiley_boxers:
I hope we see the new Smoke Jaguars as an elite cluster (maybe reinforced cluster) similar to the Death Commandos.
I'm hoping for that myself. They were the hammers of Nicholas' toolkit, I'd like very much to see them return to those roots under Alaric.
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It was also in the 3250 introduction to TRO Clan Invasion.
Are those even still canon anymore? Seriously asking.
Trade, you say? If these Jaguars are true to their style, loyal to the old ways, they'll show up and trade nothing but beatings to reclaim the pride OmniMech of the Clan. :smiley_boxers:
Scotty was right. The Iron Cheetah is better anyway. Out with the old, in with the new.
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Are those even still canon anymore? Seriously asking.
Ray has said yes back in either the Empire or the Tamar launch thread. Though who knows as the game starts to actually get closer to that date.
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It was also in the 3250 introduction to TRO Clan Invasion.
Ah. Skipped that one due to already having all the year-based TROs.
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Given the choice between integral mobile overhead cover and a clear angle to eject I'd definitely rather be able to eject safely.
Planning around losing is a particularly Spheroid mode of thinking to Clanners, so I can see your point.
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(https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2019-02/1550986923_8_.jpg)
(https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2019-02/1550987090_15_-untitled_fr125.jpg)
There's some 16th-Century art of supposed Picts that I, uh, won't link here.
That said, I genuinely love that Alaric brought the Jaguars back. It makes a strong statement, both in-universe and out.
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Are those even still canon anymore? Seriously asking.
Yes. The original idea (not even really a plan; it never progressed beyond the brainstorming stage) for a time jump to 3250 was abandoned, but it still makes for a good framing device. Note that the bits and pieces we've got about 3250 are very careful to not give too many specifics. Maybe the ilClan conquered the Inner Sphere, maybe it's still just one faction among many. We'll find out when we get there.
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Trade, you say? If these Jaguars are true to their style, loyal to the old ways, they'll show up and trade nothing but beatings to reclaim the pride OmniMech of the Clan. :smiley_boxers:
It's the pride OmniMech of a very different Clan now (different thanks in part to Warhawks), Jaguars will need some serious extra time in the gym to do this the old way
I'm sure that great and wise Paul Moon would be the first to tell them to just bring nice stuff with them to trade for family heirlooms :cool:
And those Amaroks sure are nice azn
Yes. The original idea (not even really a plan; it never progressed beyond the brainstorming stage) for a time jump to 3250 was abandoned, but it still makes for a good framing device. Note that the bits and pieces we've got about 3250 are very careful to not give too many specifics. Maybe the ilClan conquered the Inner Sphere, maybe it's still just one faction among many. We'll find out when we get there.
Honestly I still can't believe that so many people got so bent out of shape over this
1) It really is excellent framing device
2) By the time story comes anywhere near that point majority of the current audience will be waiting for their families to decide if they should take them off life support
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Scotty was right. The Iron Cheetah is better anyway. Out with the old, in with the new.
It's not so much the performance as it is the prestige and the symbolism. The assault Omni that was designed in anticipation of the Jaguars' return to the IS could serve to herald a new return. Plus, everyone else considered them as highly prized and went to great pains to maintain them, a solely Jaguar design, unlike the Dire Wolf and I would argue it's spiritual successor the Iron Cheetah. I've got no beef with the IC, but the Warhawk was *the* flagship design in my eyes, and I'd like to see it come home.
It's the pride OmniMech of a very different Clan now (different thanks in part to Warhawks), Jaguars will need some serious extra time in the gym to do this the old way
I'm sure that great and wise Paul Moon would be the first to tell them to just bring nice stuff with them to trade for family heirlooms :cool:
I imagine it wouldn't be a big force, maybe a Star to press a Trial. No more gym time needed, the NuJags have been fighting Falcons, Wolves, and enemies of the Republic in all forms in their former lives as WiE and Fidelis.
Speaking of heirlooms though, I'd bet the Scorpions still have Franklin Osis' dagger that the Crimson Seekers stole in the 3050s... The Jags should get that back if they ever go out that way.
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I will stand by my stance that I wish nuCSJ had stayed the Fidelis, and I hope we hear what happened to the Fidelis that stayed true to the Republic on New Earth or elsewhere.
Back in SYD Custos Paul Moon mentioned he had two centuries (200) warriors ready to serve, and only sent 100 out. The other 100 must have stayed behind the Fortress walls. When Paul Moon turned traitor and rejoined the Clans that century of warriors was still on New Earth, and Paul Moon + Fidelis who didn't become nuCSJ left for parts unknown. Should have still been some Fidelis to help out on Terra or elsewhere.
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It's not so much the performance as it is the prestige and the symbolism. The assault Omni that was designed in anticipation of the Jaguars' return to the IS could serve to herald a new return. Plus, everyone else considered them as highly prized and went to great pains to maintain them, a solely Jaguar design, unlike the Dire Wolf and I would argue it's spiritual successor the Iron Cheetah. I've got no beef with the IC, but the Warhawk was *the* flagship design in my eyes, and I'd like to see it come home.
I completely understand your point here, and on top of that, we all know how much Alaric loves symbolism. It's the reason the Jaguars exist now. So there's always a chance, however slim, that this might happen. But I certainly hope TPTB can do better for the Jaguars than having them chasing after hollow glory and bragging rights (a trait which contributed to their demise, perhaps more than any other). These simply aren't the same people they were a century ago, and I sincerely hope TPTB don't treat them as such.
Besides, I don't see them taking a detour way tf out to the Scorpion Empire in the foreseeable future anyway. The Jaguars have much more immediate concerns on their plate right now. Plus I kinda like that the Scorpions have it, because it's almost as iconic for them as it is for the Jaguars at this point. But I wouldn't cry if the Warhawk made it back into the Jaguars' hands, or just the Inner Sphere in general. It's a great design and the Jaguars could show everyone how it's done. :cheesy:
Personally, I think TPTB should've saved the Iron Cheetah for the new Jaguars and used it as a symbol of their rebirth instead of debuting it the way that they did. It still could've made it into the RecGuides even, and made its canonization that much more special. The Wolves got a shit-ton of new designs in recent years; surely these new Jaguars could've been given one! It's a damn-near perfect assault 'Mech and very distinctly Jaguar in flavor, and deserves primacy of place.
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I will stand by my stance that I wish nuCSJ had stayed the Fidelis, and I hope we hear what happened to the Fidelis that stayed true to the Republic on New Earth or elsewhere.
Per the diorama thread. The Capellans captured and fortified New Earth. I think there is a good chance that the Fidelis, or at least their warriors, got wiped out while Alaric was taking Terra. This feels like we are looking the Fidelis getting the Shadow Division treatment, where some who were sent out some will come back into the nuJag fold, and the rest are never heard from again.
Since all of the NuJag warriors started out as as Fidelis. What I do hope is that the NuJags take the loss of New Earth as a reason to keep the Fidelis traditions alive, making them into far more of a Special Forces Clan, then into your run-of-the-mill Clanny Clan.
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I will stand by my stance that I wish nuCSJ had stayed the Fidelis, and I hope we hear what happened to the Fidelis that stayed true to the Republic on New Earth or elsewhere.
I agree with the latter sentiment, but I'm thrilled that at least some of them were able to kindasorta fulfill BLP's original epilogue and return the Smoke Jaguars to life. The Stone Lions in WoR already set the precedent for us (and I guess maybe the Wolves post-Refusal War), and it's the biggest middle finger the Clans can possibly give to the Inner Sphere, and that has possibilities. And since some of the Fidelis didn't join Alaric, it's not like we aren't having our cake and eating it too.
Plus it's just nice seeing the number of Clans increasing instead of decreasing for a change.
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I agree that Iron Cheetah is much more appropriate symbol for reborn Smoke Jaguars than Warhawk which has practically become Goliath Scorpion totem mech at this point
For Jaguars it represents everything that they are trying to change about themselves and leave in the past
For Scorpions OTOH Warhawk represents something completely opposite: it defended them during Wars of Reaving, it protected their new home in Imperio and it carried them to victory in the Crusade
Iron Cheetah definitely can and should be symbol of reborn Smoke Jaguars, it's still absolutely their mech. Fact that other factions use it doesn't change that one bit
Kodiak, Horned Owl, Timber Wolf, Summoner and Kingfisher are used by many factions but they are all definitely still Bear, Scorpion, Wolf, Falcon and Raven mechs respectively
Iron Cheetah can easily be that for reborn Smoke Jaguars, hell it already is by any measure: Jaguars made it, Jaguars use it and Jaguars will be getting more of them in the future
As for Warhawk coming back to the Inner Sphere proper I think it will happen at some point, yes Scorpions are gorging on them now but at some point they will have their fill and send it on the open market like they did with Snow Fox or Star Python
Already high price combined with rarity and distances needed to import one could make it something of a prestige item: not any rando would be able to shell out cash for it and Sea Foxes would be riding that situation for all it's worth
Considering their current employment status Smoke Jaguars should not have problems acquiring fresh Warhawks once they hit the catalogue
About Fidelis, I would bet good money that (regardless of what their political opinions they may have) should anyone even try to touch them they would be starting full blown blood feud with every single Smoke Jaguar out there and that it would end horribly for the perps
It's not a hornet's nest I would recommend disturbing
New Jaguars started well enough but in order to redeem their name properly they first need to prove their worth to population of the planet they will end up living on and in light of recent updates New Earth looks like possible location to start that process
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Per the diorama thread. The Capellans captured and fortified New Earth. I think there is a good chance that the Fidelis, or at least their warriors, got wiped out while Alaric was taking Terra. This feels like we are looking the Fidelis getting the Shadow Division treatment, where some who were sent out some will come back into the nuJag fold, and the rest are never heard from again.
Since all of the NuJag warriors started out as as Fidelis. What I do hope is that the NuJags take the loss of New Earth as a reason to keep the Fidelis traditions alive, making them into far more of a Special Forces Clan, then into your run-of-the-mill Clanny Clan.
Just asked for clarification in the GenCon thread but Facebook lists the world as New Home and not New Earth. https://www.facebook.com/camospecs/posts/pfbid02E6D2TxBiWLhGTBgq5EUXf5g1ycXsTNZSziifXtmqmoUejGzrcdikhxZqVWod5RXXl
If its actually New Home that makes life easier for any Fidelis / Jags that did not travel to Terra.
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Just asked for clarification in the GenCon thread but Facebook lists the world as New Home and not New Earth. https://www.facebook.com/camospecs/posts/pfbid02E6D2TxBiWLhGTBgq5EUXf5g1ycXsTNZSziifXtmqmoUejGzrcdikhxZqVWod5RXXl
If its actually New Home that makes life easier for any Fidelis / Jags that did not travel to Terra.
FWIW, the photo of the physical caption I saw on the diorama said Tau Ceti (aka New Earth).
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More than anything, the GenCon diorama is getting me even more hype for ilKhan's Eyes Only.
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More than anything, the GenCon diorama is getting me even more hype for ilKhan's Eyes Only.
On that note, any idea of a release date
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Plus it's just nice seeing the number of Clans increasing instead of decreasing for a change.
Agree. Hopefully the reason Kisho got an entry in BattleTech: Legends is that the Nova Cats will be following in the Jags' footsteps.
On that note, any idea of a release date
Not this year at least, or so I saw on the upcoming releases thread. Real bummer, but all those merc kickstarter products have to take priority.
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On that note, any idea of a release date
Adepticon it sounded like it was going to be the Novel (unstarted) first. Then they would do the sourcebook. No idea how long this stuff takes, but the need to physically print IKEO is going to drag things out.
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Per the diorama thread. The Capellans captured and fortified New Earth. I think there is a good chance that the Fidelis, or at least their warriors, got wiped out while Alaric was taking Terra. This feels like we are looking the Fidelis getting the Shadow Division treatment, where some who were sent out some will come back into the nuJag fold, and the rest are never heard from again.
Since all of the NuJag warriors started out as as Fidelis. What I do hope is that the NuJags take the loss of New Earth as a reason to keep the Fidelis traditions alive, making them into far more of a Special Forces Clan, then into your run-of-the-mill Clanny Clan.
Given the fighting style of the Fidelis, I'd be surprised if they got wiped out. If anything they should be conducting guerilla resistance to the Liaos. Perhaps that is why the Clan League struck New Home, to free the Fidelis and offer them a choice to join nuCSJ.
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Given the fighting style of the Fidelis, I'd be surprised if they got wiped out. If anything they should be conducting guerilla resistance to the Liaos. Perhaps that is why the Clan League struck New Home, to free the Fidelis and offer them a choice to join nuCSJ.
Depends on how war crimey the invading force is, and how much they are going to be holding the non-combatants accountable for the Fidelis activity. I don't see Paul Moon abandoning the people he has led for almost a century, to their fate.
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Picts please!
Finally got the camera out. First picture is a Command Star, second is an Assault Star.
(https://i.imgur.com/epLKNGM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/207bzbw.jpg)
Basing and decals to follow on all of them, plus a lot more in time.
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Agree. Hopefully the reason Kisho got an entry in BattleTech: Legends is that the Nova Cats will be following in the Jags' footsteps.
The question will be who actually revives them. If Kisho manages to get to the clan Protectorate we might get a non IcClan aligned Nova Cat Clan. And considering how the majoprity of the clans treated the Nova Cats we might get a second anti IlClan force.
For the Fidelis: didn't Levin ask the Fidelis to train more units akin to their battle tactics and structure? Those were the Fidelis units right? So I assume that those are not all "true" Jaguars but RAF members trained in their fighting style. In the IlClan book it also stated that remants from Principes, Triari and fidelis unit made their way into the Federated suns where Julian offered them shelter. Could there be Jaguars between them or are those all former RAF troopers?
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For Jaguars it represents everything that they are trying to change about themselves and leave in the past
I miss the old Jags. These modern Clanners are too soft.
We need a Jaguar were the Trueborns are real Trueborns, the Lower Caste serve and the warriors lead. Where honor is both a bludgeon for belligerence, and a shield against defeat.
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I'm just hoping a unit uses the old Alpha Galaxy Jaguar spot camo. Selfishly, of course. I'll use those minis either way. :rolleyes:
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I miss the old Jags. These modern Clanners are too soft.
We need a Jaguar were the Trueborns are real Trueborns, the Lower Caste serve and the warriors lead. Where honor is both a bludgeon for belligerence, and a shield against defeat.
We have Alaric for that now.
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We have Alaric for that now.
Alaric is many things, but up to this point, a Clan traditionalist he is not.
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No, but he is narrow-minded to the point of being self destructive.
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I miss the old Jags. These modern Clanners are too soft.
We need a Jaguar were the Trueborns are real Trueborns, the Lower Caste serve and the warriors lead. Where honor is both a bludgeon for belligerence, and a shield against defeat.
That attitude is the reason why old Jags have gone the way of RWR and we had to invent another Jags
When even Combine civilians think that they are not an improvement over previous management they should know they have a problem
Also that trueborn elitism is opposite of the whole purpose of eugenics program, if they have to artificially eliminate freeborn competition because they might be better than trueborns then that generation of trueborns are failures
Trueborns should have top performing scores and best freeborns should be giving their all just to keep up with mid trueborns and earn their position on top of the hierarchy otherwise it's just cheating and feudalism under a different name
Real trueborns should not need dishonest legalities and hypocritical rhetoric to dominate, their scores should be enough
Rules of evolution are clear
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If you want to live in the past BattleTech is happy to facilitate this for you.
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I miss the old Jags. These modern Clanners are too soft.
We need a Jaguar were the Trueborns are real Trueborns, the Lower Caste serve and the warriors lead. Where honor is both a bludgeon for belligerence, and a shield against defeat.
Nicholas Kerensky's Clans could only ever survive in a vacuum. Once exposed to people outside of the Kerensky Cluster - people who can survive just fine without a Warrior Caste telling them what to do - the Way of the Clans has to evolve to reflect something approaching reality. The old Jaguars never understood this, which is why they died. If they'd treated their populace with anything other than contempt, then Operations BULLDOG and SERPENT never could've succeeded.
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The old jaguars is why I do not like the new jaguars existing at all. So no, better not to revive the old Jaguars. Not in a hundred novels. Jaguars are one of the reasons why I find the whole clans (all of them) distasteful to put it mildly. I was very sad for the narrative when the new jaguars were introduced for this very reason. Because they brought one of the worst clan paradigms back into the story.
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There's the chance that the nuJags have learned from their time in the Republic and are a lot less Clan Hardass this time around. People grow and change, and their time as the Fidelis shouldn't just be forgotten with their restoration.
Watch the revived Smoke Jaguar clan be one of the more liberal Clans, that ought to be interesting to see.
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There's the chance that the nuJags have learned from their time in the Republic and are a lot less Clan Hardass this time around. People grow and change, and their time as the Fidelis shouldn't just be forgotten with their restoration.
Watch the revived Smoke Jaguar clan be one of the more liberal Clans, that ought to be interesting to see.
This. Their history from Forever Faithful to Hour of the Wolf is going to make them a very, very different version of a Clan people than the Jags that took out Turtle Bay.
Everyone's mileage may vary on what they like about the current storyline but I am very, very stoked for the nuJags. Hm, maybe less stoked to call them that though lmao...
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There's the chance that the nuJags have learned from their time in the Republic and are a lot less Clan Hardass this time around. People grow and change, and their time as the Fidelis shouldn't just be forgotten with their restoration.
Watch the revived Smoke Jaguar clan be one of the more liberal Clans, that ought to be interesting to see.
They definitely learned a lesson, if memory serves me their current Khan is freeborn and they have been acting rationally for a century now
Granted it's not that complicated lesson and many other Clans learned it without issues but Old Jags were so unbelievably pigheaded that it was simply impossible for them to even begin to learn it and they had to be torched to the ground before the leftovers could start to learn
Franklin Osis told them which mistakes to avoid, they ignored his words and got what was coming to them
I assume that New Jags opened a history book and read it once or twice considering their current mentality
And like I said, if anyone even touches Fidelis the New Jags will go full Old Jags on whoever did it
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if memory serves me their current Khan is freeborn
Prohaska Moon's genefather (not father) is Paul Moon, so she's a trueborn.
The old jaguars is why I do not like the new jaguars existing at all. So no, better not to revive the old Jaguars. Not in a hundred novels. Jaguars are one of the reasons why I find the whole clans (all of them) distasteful to put it mildly. I was very sad for the narrative when the new jaguars were introduced for this very reason. Because they brought one of the worst clan paradigms back into the story.
I'm confused why you'd come post in their fan thread if you don't like them.
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This. Their history from Forever Faithful to Hour of the Wolf is going to make them a very, very different version of a Clan people than the Jags that took out Turtle Bay.
Everyone's mileage may vary on what they like about the current storyline but I am very, very stoked for the nuJags. Hm, maybe less stoked to call them that though lmao...
Yeah if they keep the same base philosophy as the Fedelis as far as society and structure they will be a bit more liberal on class structure.....but perhaps more willing to skirt strict honor rules in combat?
Once they established the colony on Wayside the warriors had to adjust big time to help build the colony to survive. Technicians / scientists contributed a lot in order to invent the high end computer components they were selling before the epilogue.
I'm looking forward to seeing what the Jaguars society looks like with all those lessons learned from their near extinction. They took combined arms to heart at least from the dark age novels.
One question I have is if they still have their remaining warship from the exodus?
In Forever Faithful they left the home worlds with 2 warships, one was the Streaking Mist and that went back to the Jaguar. The Fidelis lost a republic warship to the wolves.......it was originally the Bordeaux and renamed the Flatus. So not the warship the Jaguars escaped with prior to evolving into the Fedelis.
Could they still have the warship mothballed somewhere? Or was it lost in the Jihad? My memory is not great on this subject but I'm not sure if the warship class or name was given in Forever Faithful?
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The other WarShip, Hidden Destiny, is indeed unaccounted for post-Forever Faithful.
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I expect the nuJags will often consider the blunders of the oldJags (at least privately in their own councils) whenever they make a major decision, and probably for many minor decisions as well.
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Prohaska Moon's genefather (not father) is Paul Moon, so she's a trueborn.
I'm confused why you'd come post in their fan thread if you don't like them.
In the novel Children of Kerensky when Alaric meets with Paul Moon he explains that over the 3 prior decades they had begun using iron wombs and Clan breeding programs to create new trueborns in anticipation of an ilClan and ilKhan who could restore Clan Smoke Jaguar.
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There's the chance that the nuJags have learned from their time in the Republic and are a lot less Clan Hardass this time around. People grow and change, and their time as the Fidelis shouldn't just be forgotten with their restoration.
Watch the revived Smoke Jaguar clan be one of the more liberal Clans, that ought to be interesting to see.
The lack of marriage and the Clan use of enclaves, are reason enough to justify keeping them from fully being assimilated into the IS warrior elite. With the rise of the ilClan (and maybe the deaths of the non-warrior Fidelis on Tau Ceti IV), now seams like a perfect time for the clanners to look back and try to interpret the Way of the Clans for the 32nd century.
We don't need the a mustached twirling Nicolai Malthus like Jags from the 90s, but since the death of Malvina, (and assuming the Horses are the target of the Final Annihilation) then all of the IS Clans are all fairly cookie cutter again. Getting some different value systems, different version of what is "right" is a good way to gin up those grey vs gray conflicts without good guy / bad guy dynamics.
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Given the events of Elements of Treason: Honor, I doubt that the Horses are going to be Annihilated. An attempt might be made, but the way things are changing internally for them looks like they're going to be a hard nut to crack.
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The lack of marriage and the Clan use of enclaves, are reason enough to justify keeping them from fully being assimilated into the IS warrior elite. With the rise of the ilClan (and maybe the deaths of the non-warrior Fidelis on Tau Ceti IV), now seams like a perfect time for the clanners to look back and try to interpret the Way of the Clans for the 32nd century.
We don't need the a mustached twirling Nicolai Malthus like Jags from the 90s, but since the death of Malvina, (and assuming the Horses are the target of the Final Annihilation) then all of the IS Clans are all fairly cookie cutter again. Getting some different value systems, different version of what is "right" is a good way to gin up those grey vs gray conflicts without good guy / bad guy dynamics.
Yeah, I am a fan of (Clan) Fusion States, as it shows growth, development and evolution, both in fiction, and RPG, and how time has it's effects similar to real life too.
I am eager to see how Jiyi's Falcons develop. I could even get behind even, perhaps 20 years down the track, as it was aired here, that all the "new" states of the Hinterlands, maybe minus the Lyran one, would one day merge into a new "Tamar Pact", where each is still sovereign, and part of the governing council. The Horses are after all a big threat to the Hinterlands
But yes, back to Smoke Jaguar, I enjoyed learning about the Fidels, the former Invasion Jags being humbled and taught a big lesson. It will be interesting to see how the nuJags are, will they learn from history ? How much of The Fidels will play a "parent" to them ? Pun intended. I almost feel (dare I say) Warden vibes
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Wouldn't that be a big twist: the Wolves are now the warmongers and the reborn Jaguars the conscience or perhaps brakes of the invaders.
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I mean, the Wolves have been warmongers since 3057.
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I mean, the Wolves have been warmongers since 3057.
They've been warmongers since 2821.
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They've been warmongers since 2821.
Then please explain why the Wolves tried to stop Operation Revival. Doesn't sound like Warmongers to me
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To be Clan is to be a warmonger, it is the purpose of the entire society.
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Wouldn't that be a big twist: the Wolves are now the warmongers and the reborn Jaguars the conscience or perhaps brakes of the invaders.
I think you should rephrase the Wolves are the arrogant conquerors and the reborn Jaguars are the thinkers and planners. I hope we see this when Alaric finally goes off the rails.
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To be Clan is to be a warmonger, it is the purpose of the entire society.
Trial Monger?
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Trial Monger?
Nope, Scotty was right the first time.
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I kind of disagree: the Clans are a martial society but they fight battles because the merchants tell them to. They don't go out to conquer just because.
Even Revival was more a "We need more resources" not a "WAR WAR WAR" decision. Though the more hawkish clans were leading the charge
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I kind of disagree: the Clans are a martial society but they fight battles because the merchants tell them to. They don't go out to conquer just because.
Even Revival was more a "We need more resources" not a "WAR WAR WAR" decision. Though the more hawkish clans were leading the charge
Whether they make war because they like it or because they need resources doesn't change the fact that the Clans are, by the very definition of the term, warmongers. They thrive in conflict, and suffer without it (see: the Clans under Stone's peace, the Homeworld Clans post-WoR, etc.). It's simply who they are as a society and culture. Nicholas himself recognized that when he set the Wolverines up for destruction.
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It should be noted that the vast majority of major Clan characters are portrayed bucking their own system, be they heroes or villains. The Way of the Clans is absolutely meant to be as realistic as chivalry or bushido, that is, few really follow its principles.
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Imagine a Clan that does not make war.
It does not exist. It is a contradiction in terms. A Clan must always be fighting something. If it is not another Clan or IS power, it is itself. If it is neither itself nor another power, it is dead.
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It should be noted that the vast majority of major Clan characters are portrayed bucking their own system, be they heroes or villains. The Way of the Clans is absolutely meant to be as realistic as chivalry or bushido, that is, few really follow its principles.
Mostly true, but besides the point.
Imagine a Clan that does not make war.
It does not exist. It is a contradiction in terms. A Clan must always be fighting something. If it is not another Clan or IS power, it is itself. If it is neither itself nor another power, it is dead.
Dead-on, Scotty.
Just look at the Homeworld Clans post-WoR. Without an external enemy to fight, they started fighting each other to such a degree that their leadership had to send some of them away to the Hanseatic League just to bleed off the mounting internal pressure. Or the OZ Clans during Stone's Peace, who chafed under the lack of combat opportunities and scaling back of their toumans. Or the Clan citizens of the Republic, who also resented Stone's enforced peace and were among the first to get buck when the Blackout hit. And just look at the absolute dumpster fire that the RasDom turned into recently.
But that's what happens when you build a society that revolves around using conflict to resolve pretty much everything and then puts the warriors at the top of the food chain. Making war is baked into the very foundations of who they are.
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Every faction of any note in Battletech is a warmonger
Ones who aren't got erased during Age of War, handful remaining are boxed into being pacifist out of fiscal reasons not idealism
Difference between Clans and IS nations is that Clans are comfortable with putting warmongering in official paperwork while IS folks still like to play the good old Kabuki theater about everyone else being warmonger and them alone being peaceful
Leaders of peace loving nations don't gift other full sized nations to their brides as wedding gifts (not without risking at least some backlash from their peace loving societies)
To say nothing of genocidal wars that go on and on and on for centuries with only pause being the result of material shortage instead of someone somewhere being tired of the whole thing
In short, few peace lovers but plenty of hypocrites
Expecting to find actual peace lovers in Battletech is like expecting to find Timber Wolf omnimech parked in Hogwarts garage, it just doesn't gel with the environment
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You miss the point. It is not that they are not pacifist, which as a label is generally laughable to try to apply to any particular faction at any given time. It's that the Clan social construct, the whole thing, crumbles in the absence of constant fighting.
It's the difference between a knife and a gun. A knife can be used to commit violence, and some knives are better at it or more useful for it than others. A gun is a tool whose purpose is exclusively violence. The Clans are a gun on a societal level.
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Weapons are threats of violence that only sometimes manifest this threat of violence, hence mutually assured destruction.
We're all still here. We live in peace under threat of violence.
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I really wonder where the writing team will take the nuJags going forward. Their resurgence as a clan was hamfisted into existence by dropping all characterization of the Fidelis, doing a cultural 180, and having them throw themselves at Alaric’s feet.
I have no idea if the nuJags will get another reversal and become some unique clan-Republic moral hybrid, or if they’ll become Alaric yes-men like the snippets in HotW hinted at, or if they’ll become something else entirely. I’m just hoping it’s well written.
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I feel confident in suggesting that characterizations from HOTW are up for new leadership given Pardoe isn't behind that particular wheel anymore.
I'm unsure exactly what I'm hoping to get. Clan wetwork specialists with visibility and sanction; elite among elites combined arms small unit tactics; a warrior monk sort of professional soldiery devoted to excellence in all forms of conflict but without the cultural trappings of bushido; same old Jags except they've (correctly) identified that everyone hated them because they were ****** to civilian castes and just having Wolf do all the civilian shit for them; normal Clan warriors with supreme loyalty to the ilClan but very specially not to Alaric.
There are a lot of different ways it could do.
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I feel confident in suggesting that characterizations from HOTW are up for new leadership given Pardoe isn't behind that particular wheel anymore.
I'm unsure exactly what I'm hoping to get. Clan wetwork specialists with visibility and sanction; elite among elites combined arms small unit tactics; a warrior monk sort of professional soldiery devoted to excellence in all forms of conflict but without the cultural trappings of bushido; same old Jags except they've (correctly) identified that everyone hated them because they were ****** to civilian castes and just having Wolf do all the civilian shit for them; normal Clan warriors with supreme loyalty to the ilClan but very specially not to Alaric.
There are a lot of different ways it could do.
The small unit clan wetworks path does appeal to me. Preserves a lot of the Fidelis tactics
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Whatever path TPTB put the Jaguars on, I just hope to see some growth and not have them simply revert to type. The Jaguars went through one hell of a crucible to get to where they are, and I don't want to see them backslide. As long as it's fun and, more importantly, consistent, I'll be a happy Jaguar fan.
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Whatever path TPTB put the Jaguars on, I just hope to see some growth and not have them simply revert to type. The Jaguars went through one hell of a crucible to get to where they are, and I don't want to see them backslide. As long as it's fun and, more importantly, consistent, I'll be a happy Jaguar fan.
This^
As long as the path forward is reasonable I'll be happy. If the reborn Jaguars backslide into the Jaguars of old I'll be annoyed. Because what would then be the point of the almost century long journey and change? All things aside on certain writers I enjoyed Surrender Your Dreams, and even more so Forever Faithful. I did not like the Jags up until I read Exodus Road. After that novel I was left hoping that more of their warriors had been like Trent and could feel his pain as he watched his vision of what he thought the Jaguars represented be crushed.
In theory the new Jaguars will have learned lessons on poor treatment of the lower castes (especially after having to work so closely just to survive when starting the colony on Wayside). And seeing as they damn near worshiped Paul Moon if they stray too far from what he built I'd be shocked.
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My worry is that Alaric is going to end up being a negative influence on the Jaguars. He not only made them Clan again, but he conquered Terra to boot, so he's going to have a lot of cachet with them. And given how the Bears basically fell upon each other because of Alaric after nearly a century of being pretty damn solidly united to the point where it felt out-of-character for them, it worries me that his bad behaviors are going to rub off on the Jaguars, too. I certainly hope that won't be the case, but the potential is certainly there.
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I'd be wary of conflating Alaric with the concept of ilClan. He sure ****** does, but it's a distinction worth keeping in mind for circumstances like the RasDom internal disputes.
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I'd be wary of conflating Alaric with the concept of ilClan. He sure ****** does, but it's a distinction worth keeping in mind for circumstances like the RasDom internal disputes.
I don't mean to conflate them so much as I was trying to draw attention to the fact that Alaric is the catalyst for what happened in the RasDom, and because the Jaguars owe their existence as a reborn Clan to Alaric personally, his influence over them going forward could be even stronger. I'm imagining a situation like, say, the one between the Stone Lions and the Star Adders.
To be clear here, I do agree with your sentiment. But I also think that with the concept of ilClan already being somewhat nebulous as it is, and with Alaric being the one to conquer Terra and being the one calling the shots right now going forward with this new Star League, it's a little tricky separating the two right now. Who knows what kind of precedents he's gonna be setting?
I hope that made sense, lol.
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It did! But let me put my meaning more clearly: regardless of the manner and intensity of the influence Alaric has over the new Jags, it is on a clock that is ticking rapidly. The man is not immortal and seems determined to find out to what degree.
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Whatever path TPTB put the Jaguars on, I just hope to see some growth and not have them simply revert to type. The Jaguars went through one hell of a crucible to get to where they are, and I don't want to see them backslide. As long as it's fun and, more importantly, consistent, I'll be a happy Jaguar fan.
Hot take here, but I hope for some reversion to type. As I see them, since their earliest days, they were the 'get-stuff-done' Clan in pursuit of being the ultimate warriors in a warrior society, regardless of who got trampled in that pursuit. As you know, Kerensky himself called the smoke jaguar "ferocity unbound, tenacity without limit," and the Clan strove to mirror this ideal in it's ways. I'll be fairly well disappointed if the (ruthless, or at least ruth-light) pursuit of martial excellence even above that to be expected of a Clan isn't a hallmark. They don't necessarily need to start shooting up cities to draw out defenders or burn down villages to make examples, but a return to the brutally direct, ends-justify-the-means mindset is a central tenet of the Smoke Jaguar experience, to my mind.
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It did! But let me put my meaning more clearly: regardless of the manner and intensity of the influence Alaric has over the new Jags, it is on a clock that is ticking rapidly. The man is not immortal and seems determined to find out to what degree.
Oh, I absolutely agree with that 100%... and not just with the Jaguars, either, but with everyone. Even his own Clan.
(As a sidenote, as I'm sitting here talking about precedents, my twisted sense of humor conjured up the image of Chance Vickers murdering Alaric in his sleep to stop him from doing something catastrophically stupid because he himself set the precedent that that's A-OK for her to do, lol.)
Hot take here, but I hope for some reversion to type. As I see them, since their earliest days, they were the 'get-stuff-done' Clan in pursuit of being the ultimate warriors in a warrior society, regardless of who got trampled in that pursuit. As you know, Kerensky himself called the smoke jaguar "ferocity unbound, tenacity without limit," and the Clan strove to mirror this ideal in it's ways. I'll be fairly well disappointed if the (ruthless, or at least ruth-light) pursuit of martial excellence even above that to be expected of a Clan isn't a hallmark. They don't necessarily need to start shooting up cities to draw out defenders or burn down villages to make examples, but a return to the brutally direct, ends-justify-the-means mindset is a central tenet of the Smoke Jaguar experience, to my mind.
I actually do agree with you on this, unsurprisingly. I think there's a lot to be said for the Jaguars to retain the essence of what it means to be Smoke Jaguar... while burning away the things that led to their original downfall. A blend of Jaguar and Fidelis sensibilities, to show that they've learned the lessons they needed to learn while sharpening their fangs and claws to an even finer point, as it were.
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You miss the point. It is not that they are not pacifist, which as a label is generally laughable to try to apply to any particular faction at any given time. It's that the Clan social construct, the whole thing, crumbles in the absence of constant fighting.
It's the difference between a knife and a gun. A knife can be used to commit violence, and some knives are better at it or more useful for it than others. A gun is a tool whose purpose is exclusively violence. The Clans are a gun on a societal level.
But that's the thing: they aren't crumbling
Clan societies have lived through periods of both peace and war and have endured and often thrived
Warriors would experience FOMO in exceptionally peaceful periods (which are exceptional rarity at any point in lore history) but rest of Clan societies which is more than 90% of population have been working out just fine regardless
In fact some of them have been so successful and resilient than I'm surprised that house lords haven't started specifically targeting Clans and hybrid states due to perceiving their existence as a threat to their position and status
As for guns and knives, knife is definitely a useful tool but it will not stop a bear from eating you or put a buffalo on the menu
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My worry is that Alaric is going to end up being a negative influence on the Jaguars. He not only made them Clan again, but he conquered Terra to boot, so he's going to have a lot of cachet with them. And given how the Bears basically fell upon each other because of Alaric after nearly a century of being pretty damn solidly united to the point where it felt out-of-character for them, it worries me that his bad behaviors are going to rub off on the Jaguars, too. I certainly hope that won't be the case, but the potential is certainly there.
If Alaric pushes them too hard I hope the Smoke Jaguars might leave. The only reason I say this is if the Smoke Jaguars do part company it would tickle me pink if they go mercenary or join another Clan. Preferably with these parting words “we wish to choose our own destiny” instead of the usual we follow the “strongest leader” no matter how stupid, psychotic, and/or inconceivable they are.
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Hot take here, but I hope for some reversion to type. As I see them, since their earliest days, they were the 'get-stuff-done' Clan in pursuit of being the ultimate warriors in a warrior society, regardless of who got trampled in that pursuit. As you know, Kerensky himself called the smoke jaguar "ferocity unbound, tenacity without limit," and the Clan strove to mirror this ideal in it's ways. I'll be fairly well disappointed if the (ruthless, or at least ruth-light) pursuit of martial excellence even above that to be expected of a Clan isn't a hallmark. They don't necessarily need to start shooting up cities to draw out defenders or burn down villages to make examples, but a return to the brutally direct, ends-justify-the-means mindset is a central tenet of the Smoke Jaguar experience, to my mind.
They can get stuff done without becoming primitive savages
This was something Franklin Osis himself became aware of once age and wisdom caught up with him and he left his successors simple and straightforward instructions: treat war as serious business because it's not a game and treat your civilians well because they are important
And it was perfectly in character for the Old Jags to, in their blind arrogance, completely ignore the advice of their own founding Khan
They can be people who get stuff done and avoid making stupid mistakes of their ignorant predecessors, it's all in the history books
And if they ever encounter some new conundrum they just need to ask themselves what would Paul Moon do? As in Paul Moon the eyewitness of history, restorer of the Clan and part time technician.
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But that's the thing: they aren't crumbling
Because there is still constant fighting happening internally in those places. Trials of position, trials of grievance, trials of refusal, trials of possession. All of these things happen frequently and regularly even in a Clan society that is "at peace" by relative description. This is what I mean when I say a Clan not fighting someone else is fighting itself. When elements Clan society experienced genuine peace in the inter-bellum Republic, it resulted in those patches of the Republic crumbling instantly to pursue conflict as soon as the opportunity presented itself. A matter of days.
This is not a suggestion of a particular occurrence in the fiction (though the Republic is a decent example), it is an observation of the nature of Clan society. The Warriors must War, whether on themselves or others, or the cracks form.
This is also BattleTech, so it's important to remember that "the state of not being at war" is not peace in the vast majority of occurrences.
rest of Clan societies which is more than 90% of population have been working out just fine regardless
I feel like Tamar Rising makes a pretty subtle but nonetheless cutting commentary on this point: the planets in the former Jade Falcon Occupation Zone that don't have warriors on them are marked with no colors. There may be Clan society in those systems sure, but there is not Clan society in those systems.
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Well after all, whether Clan or IS, defensive or offensive, war is what make the (Battletech) universe go round :shocked:
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Well after all, whether Clan or IS, defensive or offensive, war is what make the (Battletech) universe go round :shocked:
Intermittent periods of peace are devices for the writers and developers to make certain conflicts stand out.
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Mostly true, but besides the point.
Not to start trouble this soon after returning, but I actually wasn't responding to you, but instead to those who I thought were implying they wanted the same ol' Jaguars who got murked by the Second Star League. If the nuJags act the same way, they're not going to last long. That said, I don't think the Fidelis pulled a 180 at all. If they no longer wanted to be Jaguars, then they would've never bothered to preserve their Remembrance. They're on a redemption arc - in-universe and out - and we'll see how it pans out.
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Considering Paul Moon is still their leader I would assume they have at least partially changed their outlook. After all, in a way, he is responsible for the fall of the original Smoke Jaguars. If he hand't ostracized Trent this much Trent might have never given all that information to Comstar which led to Task Force Serpent's strike at Huntress and the (cursory) razing of several Jaguar factories and monuments.
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Because there is still constant fighting happening internally in those places. Trials of position, trials of grievance, trials of refusal, trials of possession. All of these things happen frequently and regularly even in a Clan society that is "at peace" by relative description. This is what I mean when I say a Clan not fighting someone else is fighting itself. When elements Clan society experienced genuine peace in the inter-bellum Republic, it resulted in those patches of the Republic crumbling instantly to pursue conflict as soon as the opportunity presented itself. A matter of days.
This is not a suggestion of a particular occurrence in the fiction (though the Republic is a decent example), it is an observation of the nature of Clan society. The Warriors must War, whether on themselves or others, or the cracks form.
This is also BattleTech, so it's important to remember that "the state of not being at war" is not peace in the vast majority of occurrences.
I feel like Tamar Rising makes a pretty subtle but nonetheless cutting commentary on this point: the planets in the former Jade Falcon Occupation Zone that don't have warriors on them are marked with no colors. There may be Clan society in those systems sure, but there is not Clan society in those systems.
Trials are logical component of militaristic meritocracy, if military acumen is the benchmark by which politicians climb the ladder in a society then appropriate process is necessary which is precisely what trials are (and it's not like they do them in the middle of the crowded street at random just for laughs)
And trials also act as safety barrier against unchecked warfare, internal or otherwise
It's little different than arranged political marriages and political assassinations among planetary dukes in order to see who will be running a planet(s) and for how many generations, difference is that Clans have streamlined the process, removed PR spin and achieved much higher average turnover rate
Problems that Clans experienced in Stone's Republic are failure of the Republic not Clans but it was hardly the only problem that particular failed state had
As for structure of Clan societies and Jade Falcon example we should keep in mind two things:
1) All Clans are vastly different to one another, different Clans have as much in common as Capellans and Lyrans do AKA superficial similarities
2) Mongol Jade Falcons were anything but regular or even weird Clan and Malvina Hazen would be giving Lincoln Osis heebie jeebies, using them as some kind of example of average Clan makes as much sense as using Amaris' Rim Worlds Republic or Liao's Capelan Confederation as example of average Inner Sphere state
Mongol Falcons under Malvina Hazen failed and crumbled but that doesn't change the fact that more competent Clan societies have survived and thrived under various different (and often more difficult) circumstances and did it in many different ways
As for color of the map it's no different than if Coordinator and entire DCMS suddenly packed up and left Draconis Combine, for a while it would definitely drain the color from the part of the map where Combine used to be
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I heard it said on here, that the Clans were created to retake Terra (and little thought was given to after it happend)
So the new ilClan Era is unique, with the fusion states of the last 50 years and more, and for those who say Clan is all about War, the new era is a stage where Clans (and writers) can say, "Well we did it, we took Terra, now what" and can do something "newish" but still good ol Battletech :cool:
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I heard it said on here, that the Clans were created to retake Terra (and little thought was given to after it happend)
So the new ilClan Era is unique, with the fusion states of the last 50 years and more, and for those who say Clan is all about War, the new era is a stage where Clans (and writers) can say, "Well we did it, we took Terra, now what" and can do something "newish" but still good ol Battletech :cool:
Not exactly, they were created to retake Pentagon Worlds
After that they were still work in progress and remain incomplete because their creator took an arrow to the knee ER-PPC to the face
Fandom often overfocuses on Terra and ignores just how much Pentagon campaign shaped the Clans, Terra was an afterthought which appeared and ballooned over a century later and not even everywhere
Today among others we have a Clan which couldn't care less about Terra because it's only after money and another one which is happily running it's Deep Periphery Empire and always saw the whole invasion as example of folly
But you are right about the whole "took Terra, now what?" thing, it definitely got the whole thing out of the way and opened loads of narrative paths and I can't wait to see what's next around the corner
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Not exactly, they were created to retake Pentagon Worlds
After that they were still work in progress and remain incomplete because their creator took an arrow to the knee ER-PPC to the face
Fandom often overfocuses on Terra and ignores just how much Pentagon campaign shaped the Clans, Terra was an afterthought which appeared and ballooned over a century later and not even everywhere
Today among others we have a Clan which couldn't care less about Terra because it's only after money and another one which is happily running it's Deep Periphery Empire and always saw the whole invasion as example of folly
But you are right about the whole "took Terra, now what?" thing, it definitely got the whole thing out of the way and opened loads of narrative paths and I can't wait to see what's next around the corner
Their leader saw the cracks in the supposed unity among his Clans and tried to rally them again. first step was the destruction of the Wolverines which didn't work as he intended (and God I still wish SaKhan Hallis had just crashed the McKenna's Pride into the Great Assembly instead of simply doing some bombings) and so came the Absorption: absorb or annihilate all "dirusptive" Clans until there is new unity and then keep them focused by war (or in this case take Terra back and then wage more war). Basically rinse and repeat of what the Hegemony did when they created their Star League. Nothing beats cementing of Unity then waging war.
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Not exactly, they were created to retake Pentagon Worlds
After that they were still work in progress and remain incomplete because their creator took an arrow to the knee ER-PPC to the face
Fandom often overfocuses on Terra and ignores just how much Pentagon campaign shaped the Clans, Terra was an afterthought which appeared and ballooned over a century later and not even everywhere
Today among others we have a Clan which couldn't care less about Terra because it's only after money and another one which is happily running it's Deep Periphery Empire and always saw the whole invasion as example of folly
But you are right about the whole "took Terra, now what?" thing, it definitely got the whole thing out of the way and opened loads of narrative paths and I can't wait to see what's next around the corner
You’re answering the in universe reason for the clans. I believe James Pryde was giving the out of universe reason. Narratively, they were introduced as an alien group obsessed with Terra. Their entire culture was focused on “Take Terra and we win” while the writers I don’t think ever really had a “and then what” at the time.
In universe, yeah. Pentagon worlds.
We are in ilClan, so now we finally get to see “and then what”
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That said, I don't think the Fidelis pulled a 180 at all. If they no longer wanted to be Jaguars, then they would've never bothered to preserve their Remembrance. They're on a redemption arc - in-universe and out - and we'll see how it pans out.
Eh. It was a complete 180. Painful, awkward, and unearned. Fidelis were introduced with - unless I’m misremembering - basically a pathological hatred of Clans Wolf and Falcon. My understanding was that was because the actions of Vlad Ward and Marthe Pryde guaranteed the death of the Jaguars. Then their history referred the great betrayal and the road of pain. They also cremated or genetically fouled their corpses in battle to guarantee no clan ever discovered who they were. None of this points to ten wanting to go back.
And not every artifact kept is because you want to reclaim what it represents. Sometimes it’s just a reminder of how bad things were.
They referred to Stone as the great father and brokered a pact with him to save their people. By every measure, they were rabidly loyal to the republic and stone because Stone was the only person to give them a fair deal and a home.
So how did they go from that to nuJags? Well, they quit because they didn’t want to get involved in a RotS “civil war.” Redburn refusing orders wasn’t a civil war. Period. An officer refused orders. So their entire reason for backstabbing Stone and RotS at the worst possible time was complete nonsense. Then they… gleefully revealed they were Jag remnants and followed Alaric? The head of their most hated enemy.
It’s… a complete and total 180. But we are here now and I want to see whatever is done with them to be something engaging. Something we haven’t seen from the clans before because the nuJags are a unique entity. There’s opportunity for good stories from here on out in spite of how we got here.
I like the elite SpecOps clan idea because it preserves how they operated as the Fidelis. I’d like to see their moral code be a mishmash of clan and Republic ideals - however those align - to reflect where they came from. A constant vote on Alaric’s Star league council for (relative) peace and general rationality (that infuriates Alaric as he tried to get his sequel to the reunification wars going) while still being ready to stack bodies clan style the moment it’s needed.
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All Clans are vastly different to one another, different Clans have as much in common as Capellans and Lyrans do AKA superficial similarities
I think the opposite is actually true: the Clans are largely very much alike, and their differences are mostly superficial.
Mongol Jade Falcons were anything but regular or even weird Clan and Malvina Hazen would be giving Lincoln Osis heebie jeebies, using them as some kind of example of average Clan makes as much sense as using Amaris' Rim Worlds Republic or Liao's Capelan Confederation as example of average Inner Sphere state
Other than the way Malvina Hazen conducted warfare, the Jade Falcons weren't really that much different than they were before her rise to power, and are a pretty good example of an "average" Clan in that time period.
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Not exactly, they were created to retake Pentagon Worlds
After that they were still work in progress and remain incomplete because their creator took an arrow to the knee ER-PPC to the face
Fandom often overfocuses on Terra and ignores just how much Pentagon campaign shaped the Clans, Terra was an afterthought which appeared and ballooned over a century later and not even everywhere
Today among others we have a Clan which couldn't care less about Terra because it's only after money and another one which is happily running it's Deep Periphery Empire and always saw the whole invasion as example of folly
But you are right about the whole "took Terra, now what?" thing, it definitely got the whole thing out of the way and opened loads of narrative paths and I can't wait to see what's next around the corner
Retaking the Pentagon Worlds was their litmus test. Nicholas Kerensky is credited with the idea that the first Clan to retake Terra would become the ilClan and their Khan would become ilKhan for life. Provided that that is actually true and not faux history drummed up by the Clans themselves to justify perpetuating their existence.
I see no reason why it would be untrue, but then the Clans make lots of decisions that only make sense to some of them. Nick K started that trend.
Blame it on the brain fever, I guess.
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Nicholas Kerensky is credited with the idea that the first Clan to retake Terra would become the ilClan and their Khan would become ilKhan for life. Provided that that is actually true and not faux history drummed up by the Clans themselves to justify perpetuating their existence.
It's at least somewhat true.
Nicholas did write in his journals that he intended the Clans to retake Terra, but there is uncertainty as to what he was actually saying/intending for the Clans: an alternate in-universe interpretation is that he intended for the Clans to basically Absorb each other until there was only one Clan left (the ilClan). The concept of the ilClan as understood here (first to reach Terra, etc) wasn't even a thing until Elias Crichell (and possibly Leo Showers) interpreted it that way and got the other Khans to agree on the eve of Revival.
It's been left nebulous/open to interpretation by design, I think.
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They can get stuff done without becoming primitive savages
They can be people who get stuff done and avoid making stupid mistakes of their ignorant predecessors, it's all in the history books
I agree, and I believe I said as much. There are many more shades of grey between 'original CSJ 2.0' and the Fidelis. I personally am hoping for some of those original traits to be present in the reincarnation. Otherwise, what's the point of resurrecting them as a Clan when they were already so interesting as the Fidelis? The Fidelis, who in fact remain solvent and thus retaining all the character they already possess.
This was something Franklin Osis himself became aware of once age and wisdom caught up with him and he left his successors simple and straightforward instructions: treat war as serious business because it's not a game and treat your civilians well because they are important
And it was perfectly in character for the Old Jags to, in their blind arrogance, completely ignore the advice of their own founding Khan
This is Osis' "war's flavor" quote you're referencing, right? That same paragraph states that FO's respect for civilian castes was mainly for their ability to serve the Jaguar war machine. It's not a leap to see how that mindset could easily become what we saw in later years.
And if they ever encounter some new conundrum they just need to ask themselves what would Paul Moon do? As in Paul Moon the eyewitness of history, restorer of the Clan and part time technician.
Not sure if it's intended or not, but there is a certain delicious irony to this statement, especially if the Smoke Jaguar Rememberance is their main guide moving forward.
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It's at least somewhat true.
Nicholas did write in his journals that he intended the Clans to retake Terra, but there is uncertainty as to what he was actually saying/intending for the Clans: an alternate in-universe interpretation is that he intended for the Clans to basically Absorb each other until there was only one Clan left (the ilClan). The concept of the ilClan as understood here (first to reach Terra, etc) wasn't even a thing until Elias Crichell (and possibly Leo Showers) interpreted it that way and got the other Khans to agree on the eve of Revival.
It's been left nebulous/open to interpretation by design, I think.
Indeed. And really what I was getting at is when you bring into account things like the supposed Steel Viper version of this. Specifically, the part about recordings of a supposed secret meeting between Nicky K and Steven Breen after the "Mad Khan" debacle.
Yes, the Vipers are outliers and have been more or less either crazy, or during calmer times, erratic in behavior. But it's still the earliest example of what I was getting at about Clans inventing their own meanings and sometimes even evidence regarding Nicholas' writings and/or intentions.
Fast forward to the Great Debate and the Political Century when the the Clans that would become the leaders of the Crusader movement (Namely the Falcons and oldJags, and of course you know that already, but bare with me) spin the writings of Nick K faster and faster to back up their agenda.
I believe it was Crichell and Showers who fleshed out the goals and specifics of Operation Revival, IIRC. As you say, Nicholas' writings were nebulous, outlines really - him sort of thinking out loud but in print so there was a lot of room for people to play with what they wanted those writings to mean. Crichell and Showers got to fill in blanks and in so doing, added their own interpretations and goals to those centuries old texts.
This would be a better way to put what I was getting at yesterday, I think.
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Speaking of Nicolas' infamous journal I always wondered one thing: do we know what kind of journal was that exactly?
As in was it something that he planned to publish at some point for wider consumption or was it just his personal notebook that he used to keep track of his thoughts and never even planned for anyone to see?
That journal wasn't even discovered until like century after his death so it really doesn't strike me as something that was meant to be seen by wider public
And it would be out of character for a person like him to keep his big political plans a secret since we know that he was a type of person who wanted absolutely everyone to know what he wants done and for them to do it ASAP
So which of those two kinds of journals was his?
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We can't know his plans any better than we do because he clearly wasn't planning to die when he did. He most likely had more to say and never lived to tell about it.
But it's obvious he thought pretty damned high of himself and his every thought seemed to be his baby, so it may be a safe bet that he would have had these often mentioned writings published. Probably in a more polished form, proof-read and revised with help by his fawning cult of personality members like Lisa Buhalin and Karen Nagasawa who had more literary skillsets.
And, officially published or not, they seemed to exist and are handed down through the centuries, so it's more or less just like he published them.
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And it would be out of character for a person like him to keep his big political plans a secret since we know that he was a type of person who wanted absolutely everyone to know what he wants done and for them to do it ASAP
The Wolverine Annihilation, and more specifically the reasoning behind it, says otherwise. It isn't out of character for Nicholas to play certain things close to his vest.
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Brothers. Sisters. Behold! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYZwO5f9yk4
A new MechWarrior 5 expansion from a Clan Smoke Jaguar perspective set during the great crusade of REVIVAL! I only hope they shy away from both Trent and Paul Moon, there are so many other stories that could be told.
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Brothers. Sisters. Behold! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYZwO5f9yk4
A new MechWarrior 5 expansion from a Clan Smoke Jaguar perspective set during the great crusade of REVIVAL! I only hope they shy away from both Trent and Paul Moon, there are so many other stories that could be told.
FINALLY we are getting the last invading Clan from Mechwarrior 2.
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My first reaction to this was "well it proably is a good thing the smoke jags where resurrected"
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I sure hope they put a lot more effort into the story this time around, because MW5 was really boring.
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I sure hope they put a lot more effort into the story this time around, because MW5 was really boring.
the DLC had some good moments, partiucalrly the Kestral lancers DLC,
the campaign however will have to be differant due to certain factors. obviously there's a bit of a more of a clock at work behind the scenes for MW5 the clans, as the jags are annialated by 3060 which gives the campaign really only 11 years to be set (meanwhile MW5 Mercs can take place over basicly 35 years) and this really is going to apply even if they arrange for your char to be taken a bondsman by another clan in 3057 (maybe the falcons or wolves for a refusal war DLC) given the clans additude towards favoring the young.
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I suspect that this game will be more on rails than that, since the player character will be part of the Smoke Jaguars with superior officers to give them orders on where to go and who to fight.
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I suspect that this game will be more on rails than that, since the player character will be part of the Smoke Jaguars with superior officers to give them orders on where to go and who to fight.
They confirmed in PC Gamer that campaign is linear and missions are hand crafted instead of random like before (finally!) so it should be pretty much like MW3
And if they stick with lore and keep the action in the Combine it will have nice moral balance between factions kinda like that RPG setup from Touring the Stars: McEvedy's Folly where both WoB and Marians thought they were the good guys
This could finally be the proper MechWarrior if they don't drop the ball
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Hope so.
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As part of their reboot I wonder how the long gap from their first destruction to their rebirth re: bloodnames is handled. Did they keep track of who was descended from which blood house but not claim the heritage until the ilclan era?
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As long as it's been and with as few Jaguars that survived the Annihilation, I suspect that most bloodnames are completely extinct by now.
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What would the new Jaguars even be working with at this point? What were the Fidelis even able to preserve of their genetics after experiencing the catastrophic destruction of their Clan and the extraordinary series of events that put the scant few that managed to survive into the position of being reborn as Jaguars anew?
Will they get back (or preferably take back because screw the Wolves) their lineages that ended up with the Exiled Wolves? Will they be starting up new Bloodnames like we've seen factions like the RasDom and the Scorpions doing to bolster their numbers? Will they even go back to doing things the old way at all, or will they retain some of their Fidelis flavor and however they were doing things before?
All things I really hope we're going to get some follow-up on sooner rather than later.
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the easiest solution would be every warrior of the new clan competes with the top 20 or so having the right to found a new blood house
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A question, do we know in which production center the Jaguars did manufacture the Iron Cheetah?
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The Fidelis have already "solved" their blood name problem haven't they? I remember in (CoK?) that the Fidelis been running a breeding program for a while now? At least long enough to have some Trueborns in circulation?
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A question, do we know in which production center the Jaguars did manufacture the Iron Cheetah?
On Huntress. Though if you mean which plant on Huntress, we don’t know.
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On Huntress. Though if you mean which plant on Huntress, we don’t know.
Thanks.
So the Clans who conquered their own enclaves could have got their hands on the design and produce it?
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Could have, but didn't. Task Force Serpent destroyed the facility, then the Diamond Sharks got the design from lower-caste Jaguars they absorbed but didn't put it into production until the Republic Era, when they began a small production for the RotS.
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Could have, but didn't. Task Force Serpent destroyed the facility, then the Diamond Sharks got the design from lower-caste Jaguars they absorbed but didn't put it into production until the Republic Era, when they began a small production for the RotS.
There were many reports about TF Serpent destroyed the facilities, but after other Clans did conquer these, o wonder, they could produce new gear (for example, the Mandrills and Scorpions could produce Warhawks).
IMHO there is a chance that the Home Clans were capable to produce Iron Cheetahs for their own toumans.
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There were many reports about TF Serpent destroyed the facilities, but after other Clans did conquer these, o wonder, they could produce new gear (for example, the Mandrills and Scorpions could produce Warhawks).
IMHO there is a chance that the Home Clans were capable to produce Iron Cheetahs for their own toumans.
The factories that the Mandrills and Scorpions captured on Huntress were never said to have been destroyed: the Mandrills captured the Phan Industriplex and managed to rebuild a single Warhawk line, and the Scorpions captured the facility on Abysmal that TFS never hit in the first place. The Iron Cheetah facility specifically was said to have been destroyed. The chances of the Home Clans having the ability to make them is virtually nonexistent.
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The factories that the Mandrills and Scorpions captured on Huntress were never said to have been destroyed: the Mandrills captured the Phan Industriplex and managed to rebuild a single Warhawk line, and the Scorpions captured the facility on Abysmal that TFS never hit in the first place. The Iron Cheetah facility specifically was said to have been destroyed. The chances of the Home Clans having the ability to make them is virtually nonexistent.
We were told that TF Serpent destroyed / dísabled all facilities on Huntress (see Twilight of the Clans books), they were there to destroy the Jaguar`s capabilities to wage war utterly. But they failed.
So, IMHO, you can not exclude the possibility that the Home Clans were capable to rebuild a facility (or construct new ones).
Getting their hands on technicans and / or getting the hardware readouts/ data would be enough for biulding the Mech.
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We were told that TF Serpent destroyed / dísabled all facilities on Huntress (see Twilight of the Clans books), they were there to destroy the Jaguar`s capabilities to wage war utterly. But they failed.
TRO 3060 provided us actual details on this stuff, and the Warhawk production facilities were accounted for there. The Pahn Industriplex was damaged by TFS but enough was left to rebuild a single Warhawk line, and the Abysmal facility was never attacked because it was in such a state of disuse.
So, IMHO, you can not exclude the possibility that the Home Clans were capable to rebuild a facility (or construct new ones).
Getting their hands on technicans and / or getting the hardware readouts/ data would be enough for biulding the Mech.
Anything's possible. But until and unless something comes up in print to confirm it, it's just headcanon at this point.
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The most likely path for another Homeworld Clan to get the Iron Cheetah is the same as it was for the SharkFoxes: a lower caste Jaguar giving them the blueprints so they can put it into production in another facility.
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Or finding the plans in a memory core that was stored somewhere in a Brian Cache or other bunker. Somewhere deep under the ruins of Lootera, tunnels closed off by destruction caused by the fighting, perhaps.
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Or in an abandoned facility once used as a stopover point on the journey between the Inner Sphere and the Homeworlds.
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Yep, all valid ways... but until we see something in print, it's headcanon/wishful thinking. And certainly not the thread for it.
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I'd like to see the Iron Cheetah remain a signature exclusive mech to the Jags, if they're going to ressurect them, they might as well give them a exclusive toy or two
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I'd like to see the Iron Cheetah remain a signature exclusive mech to the Jags, if they're going to ressurect them, they might as well give them a exclusive toy or two
As much as I 100% agree with this idea, that ship has already sailed, unfortunately: the Ravens and Exiled Wolves were already buying them.
Maybe the new Jaguars oughta toss the Foxes around a bit in a Trial and get their monster back where it belongs. :evil:
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The Iron Cheetah availability on the MUL is amusing, and includes the FWL and FedSuns (which I'm not at all upset by).
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You can always count on Sea Fox gear to wind up being used by everyone who can pay for it.
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The Iron Cheetah availability on the MUL is amusing, and includes the FWL and FedSuns (which I'm not at all upset by).
I also saw this and found it to be curious but also exciting. Throwing an Iron Cheetah into a fast assault Lance is a tempting (but expensive) proposition.
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It's still weird to me that the Jags are back as a Clan. But hey, I'm game to see where this is going.
I'm curious about a chicken and egg scenario: were they brought back because TPTB knew that MW5 was going to be Jaguar themed, so they are trying to bring them back/rehabilitate them in the sourcebooks and newer novels, or was MW5 made Jaguar themed because they just have been brought back?
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I'm curious about a chicken and egg scenario: were they brought back because TPTB knew that MW5 was going to be Jaguar themed, so they are trying to bring them back/rehabilitate them in the sourcebooks and newer novels, or was MW5 made Jaguar themed because they just have been brought back?
Personally, I don't think one had anything to do with the other. I'm fairly certain that the Jaguars being back in print is largely (if not solely) due to BLP, because he's clearly been antsy to do it since at least as far back as the MWDA days.
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Personally, I don't think one had anything to do with the other. I'm fairly certain that the Jaguars being back in print is largely (if not solely) due to BLP, because he's clearly been antsy to do it since at least as far back as the MWDA days.
It was BLP’s idea, per BLP, to bring them back as a symbolic undoing of the Second Star League. So Alaric could make the biggest accomplishment of SL2 a sham. I forget if this was the line in his blog before or after how the RotS needed to die and never come back as a capstone to a major era.
For those missing the subtext, the death of the Jags was the setting altering capstone to the most significant era of the setting.
That said. The nuJags are here and let’s see what a better writer can do with them that’s engaging and new.
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It's still weird to me that the Jags are back as a Clan. But hey, I'm game to see where this is going.
I'm curious about a chicken and egg scenario: were they brought back because TPTB knew that MW5 was going to be Jaguar themed, so they are trying to bring them back/rehabilitate them in the sourcebooks and newer novels, or was MW5 made Jaguar themed because they just have been brought back?
Doubtful, new Jags and old Jags have the same ancestry but the whole raison d'etre of new Jags is to be better than old Jags
Lincoln Osis out, Franklin Osis back in
And new MW game is definitely about old Jags
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the whole raison d'etre of new Jags is to be better than old Jags
We don't really know that yet. Especially with Alaric in charge.
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We don't really know that yet. Especially with Alaric in charge.
Not Alaric's call to make
It's Paul Moon's
And Moon was crystal clear on that: Special forces yes, butchers no
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Paul Moon didn't join the Jaguars, so it's not his call, either. And underestimating the power of the ilKhan of the ilClan over those Clanners who flocked to his banner seems rather silly to me, especially after watching the RasDom all but tear itself apart over it.
My point is that we don't know how things are going to shake out with them, and we've seen CGL change plans time and time again, so people really should stop being so comfortable trying to predict the future as if it's already written.
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We can't possibly stop speculating, it's what we do here. All these Clan faction threads are filled with speculations. Most were wrong, some are occasionally right. Many remain to be seen.
We can tell people they are wrong and why we think so, but we can't tell them to stop, that's the moderators' jobs.
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The irony of being told "let the moderators do their job" while doing the moderators' job is palpable. But fair enough. Let's move on.
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Not Alaric's call to make
It's Paul Moon's
And Moon was crystal clear on that: Special forces yes, butchers no
To harp even more and add to Tassa’s point:
1)Paul Moon said a new Jaguar clan was not his place. He stayed Fidelis.
2) It really is Alaric’s call. Whether they become a clan again or just stay absorbed by the wolves is basically entirely Alaric’s prerogative. If he doesn’t like what they try to be, they just die off as a culture. It’s part of why their casual “hell yeah we’ll join up” was so badly thought out.
Speaking of culture, we already trashed eighty years of their cultural evolution and all of their characterization to reach here. So we have zero idea what path Jags will take. They are functionally an entirely new culture made up in CoK/HotW that will be fleshed out in ilKEO and whatever the ilclan novel is, because the one they were would never have joined the wolves.
As much as I’d love a fifth column nuJags who do their damnedest to undercut Alaric’s wolves, if they are that at all, I’m not sure Alaric will let them be a clan.
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Honestly, Paul Moon staying behind with some of the Fidelis who didn't sign up is kind of the best of both worlds, because we can have both flavors of Jaguar.
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Personally, I don't think one had anything to do with the other. I'm fairly certain that the Jaguars being back in print is largely (if not solely) due to BLP, because he's clearly been antsy to do it since at least as far back as the MWDA days.
I have it on good authority that it was indeed entirely on BLP. That said given MW5: The clans I suppose CGL should see this as conveniant. course if the jags where still dead in the ilclan era would FPG have perhaps chosen a differant clan?
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Out of the Big Four from the Invader Clans, aren't the Jaguars t
course if the jags where still dead in the ilclan era would FPG have perhaps chosen a differant clan?
I know we have no way of knowing one way or the other, but I somehow doubt that the Jaguars' resurrection in the ilClan era even caused a blip on FPG's radar, and this is probably just a happy coincidence.
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Out of the Big Four from the Invader Clans, aren't the Jaguars t
I know we have no way of knowing one way or the other, but I somehow doubt that the Jaguars' resurrection in the ilClan era even caused a blip on FPG's radar, and this is probably just a happy coincidence.
you're proably right, FPG isn't concerned with that as it won't impact THEIR bottem line.
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you're proably right, FPG isn't concerned with that as it won't impact THEIR bottem line.
I forgot to properly edit my thought up there, LOL, but I was thinking maybe they went with the Jaguars because they're one of the Big Four but have gotten the least amount of exposure. And frankly, I think seeing a Jaguar's perspective that isn't Trent (or being written by BLP) is great; Jaguar's Leap is one of my favorite new novels published because it gave us a really good look at the mindset of their rank-and-file warriors.
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Catalyst must have committed to creating the nuJags no later than when they signed off on BLP's outlines for Rock of the Republic and Children of Kerensky. Those books came out in 2020... not long after the first MechWarrior 5. At the time I doubt PGI even knew how many DLC packs they would be doing, much less a standalone sequel.
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To harp even more and add to Tassa’s point:
1)Paul Moon said a new Jaguar clan was not his place. He stayed Fidelis.
2) It really is Alaric’s call. Whether they become a clan again or just stay absorbed by the wolves is basically entirely Alaric’s prerogative. If he doesn’t like what they try to be, they just die off as a culture. It’s part of why their casual “hell yeah we’ll join up” was so badly thought out.
Speaking of culture, we already trashed eighty years of their cultural evolution and all of their characterization to reach here. So we have zero idea what path Jags will take. They are functionally an entirely new culture made up in CoK/HotW that will be fleshed out in ilKEO and whatever the ilclan novel is, because the one they were would never have joined the wolves.
As much as I’d love a fifth column nuJags who do their damnedest to undercut Alaric’s wolves, if they are that at all, I’m not sure Alaric will let them be a clan.
We seem to have a misunderstanding here
I never said that they would not be following Alaric's orders, he is ilKhan, he is calling the shots and new Jaguars are SpecOps for this new Star League, what ilKhan says goes
What I'm saying is that unlike old Jaguars they would not be going around doing epically horrible things for their own ego
They didn't undergo some 40k mind wipe when they signed up for being Jaguars again, they left with Paul Moon's blessing and expectations one of which was that certain lines are not to be crossed ever again
In fact those are the same expectations that Alaric has of surviving Malvina's Falcons, to drop the whole Mongol shtick once and for all because it's unseemly
That's the difference between old and new Jags that I'm referring to (like you said yourself, a new culture)
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In terms of the mechwarrior games, the other 3 main invading clans already had the spotlight: Wolf and Jade Falcon in Mechwarrior 2, Ghost Bears in Ghost Bear's Legacy. So it's only fair for the Smoke Jaguars to finally get their turn.
That it coincided with their resurrection as a clan in the current timeline may just be serendipitous.
Although I'm not really a Smoke Jaguar fan, I'm already looking forward to playing out Operation Revival from the viewpoint of the Clans, which has NOT been done yet either. It's interesting that for Mechwarrior 2 and GBL, they stuck with the current events (at the time) post-Tukayyid instead of moving just a bit into the past for the Clan Invasion. The Clan invasion was only covered in a select number of games: Crescent Hawk's Revenge and Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries, IIRC.
I hope the battles for Luthien and Tukayyid will really bring both the ferocity of the Clans and the sheer desperation of these epic conflicts into the game.
One thing the Mechwarrior franchise needs to improve is mission crafting - difficult scouting/hunt missions encouraging fast agile light/medium mechs instead of always going with heavies and assaults at the endgame, which is what I always see.
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Speaking of culture, we already trashed eighty years of their cultural evolution and all of their characterization to reach here. So we have zero idea what path Jags will take. They are functionally an entirely new culture made up in CoK/HotW that will be fleshed out in ilKEO and whatever the ilclan novel is, because the one they were would never have joined the wolves.
Well we have all the text from Forever Faithful detailing the cultural changes that the Jags went through in order to start and keep the new colony alive. The precedent has been set for the warriors to be more blended than the old Jags.
Surrender Your Dreams covers Fidelis training and how they train in all aspects of combat before working up to mechwarriors. So combat wise I'm expecting a much heavier focus on combined arms.......or at the very least more competant second line / garrison units as all warriors train as infantry, then armor etc.
I'm not suggesting the nuJags will be a perfect Mary Sue faction.........but I do think we have almost 100 years of them living with a different culture than the Jags of old. Now how Alaric handles things will be interesting, but I don't think he is going to be too inclinded to meddle in the day to day Jag culture. If he gives orders to attack X planet and they dissobey I could see him throwing a temper tantrum. We shall see how the writers flesh everything out.
One other question that came up earlier was on bloodlines / bloodnames and how many the nuJags would have access to. We had several bloodnamed warriors listed in Forever Faithful, so any samples from those warriors would be fair game.
The other wrinkle will be that the Jags were encouraged to breed like crazy in order to grow the population. This was mentioned in both Forever Faithful, and Surrender Your Dreams where one of the warriors mentioned some duties were more enjoyable than others. So even before the iron wombs were fired up the warriors were breeding to keep the population growing. Now I'm not sure if many of the natural born Jags/Fedelis would be able to compete for a traditional bloodname or not. At the very least I'm expecting that the high focus on growing the population introduced warrior genetics into the lower castes and vice versa over the decades.
Even if none of those natural births contribute to bloodnamed warriors I'm thinking that it will result in a closer relationship between the warriors and other members of the Fedelis/Jags society. We also have to wait and see for the breakdown of what percentage of the Fedelis population became clan or stayed Fedelis. I really wish we were getting IKEO sooner to have some more background on how the nuJags are setup / what % stayed Fedelis and also where they went.
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...
I hope the battles for Luthien and Tukayyid will really bring both the ferocity of the Clans and the sheer desperation of these epic conflicts into the game....
For a game size they say they going for I think that Battle of Luthien would be much better end point especially since they are starting from events in Homeworlds and through the Deep Periphery and Periphery before Inner Sphere and Combine come into play
It's enough to cover the Clan Smoke Jaguar, deliver political scheming, give character arcs to cast and have protagonists go out in the blaze of glory on Luthien, Halo Reach style
Tukayyid was Wolf's and ComStar's story not Smoke Jaguar's
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Tukayyid was Wolf's and ComStar's story not Smoke Jaguar's
That's not really true. The Wolves and ComStar were certainly the primary actors, but Tukayyid was extremely important in the Jaguars' ongoing story: they lost a third of their entire invasion force, both of their Khans (despite one coming back later) and their Loremaster. Tukayyid, more than anything else, even more than Luthien, shaped the Jaguars' narrative, as it did for pretty much every Clan that participated.
Personally, I hope they avoid Tukayyid and Luthien (especially Luthien; this battle needs to be cleaned up in canon first and foremost) and end things on something a little more manageable in scale: Wolcott.
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Agreed - I think Jag fans and Nova Cat fans, as well as Combine fans and mercenary fans of the Dragoons and Kell Hounds, would all love to see a Historical Turning Points Luthien product.
I'd be first to purchase it.
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While on the subject of products, a smaller-scale product focusing on Wolcott would be cool too.
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Absodamnlutely. The Battle of Luthien is begging for a proper presentation (most especially the involved units, yiiiiiiikes), and a Turning Points would be so perfect for that.
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Absodamnlutely. The Battle of Luthien is begging for a proper presentation (most especially the involved units, yiiiiiiikes), and a Turning Points would be so perfect for that.
1000% I always thought this was the most “ epic” of the invasion battles
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Tukayyid, a Wolf story? They're like a relief pitcher who puts up a couple of no-hit innings after the starter has already gotten bombed. Nice for your personal stats, irrelevant to the outcome.
The Jaguars, in the same analogy, are that starting pitcher.
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That's not really true. The Wolves and ComStar were certainly the primary actors, but Tukayyid was extremely important in the Jaguars' ongoing story: they lost a third of their entire invasion force, both of their Khans (despite one coming back later) and their Loremaster. Tukayyid, more than anything else, even more than Luthien, shaped the Jaguars' narrative, as it did for pretty much every Clan that participated.
Personally, I hope they avoid Tukayyid and Luthien (especially Luthien; this battle needs to be cleaned up in canon first and foremost) and end things on something a little more manageable in scale: Wolcott.
Tukayyid was important for Jaguars in the same way as Operation Scorpion was important for ComStar: beginning of an end but hardly epic
And I may be minority here but it's definitely not Smoke Jaguar videogame material, videogames need to move copies and Tukayyid is a miserable end to a story on their side
Plus in post-Tex/Red40k era anything about Tukayyid that isn't centered solely around ComStar with tagline "Get *****, Clanner!!!" will cause fandom-wide meltdowns of epic proportions
Wolcott ended in negotiated give-up and simply lacks the gravitas of Luthien
Luthien however is pure gravitas
Or if they really want to show downfall of Jaguars while avoiding their silliness on Tukayyid they should just do a time skip before last several missions, play cutscene about how hard Jaguars screwed up an and have last missions take place on Huntress as protagonists get mauled by SERPENT while they ride their Threshers in hopeless last stand as disposable solahama while string orchestra plays in the background
Tukayyid, a Wolf story? They're like a relief pitcher who puts up a couple of no-hit innings after the starter has already gotten bombed. Nice for your personal stats, irrelevant to the outcome.
The Jaguars, in the same analogy, are that starting pitcher.
But Wolves did get those stats
ComStar got victory
Falcons got epic last stand
Bears got a new perspective
Even Diamond Sharks got a new origin story
Any of those would be better Tukayyid protagonist
All Jaguars got was a meme, their HQ might as well have been a circus tent while their comms played Benny Hill music throughout the whole thing
Now let's go back to the real world: What's actually going to happen in this new Clan MW videogame is that they will simply pull a good old Star Wars
There will be several missions against other Clans and pirates but once Jaguars make contact with the Inner Sphere the protagonist will defect to the other side after seeing the error of their ways and will continue fighting for truth, justice and the FedCom/Wolf way (whichever they decide to skedaddle to)
No way we will get to play the villain in a videogame that is sold for money
Just look at latest expansion for MW5: players are apparently fighting for the Kuritans but not exactly since they will actually be playing as mercenaries working somehow for Kuritans (despite the whole Kuritan "no to mercenaries" thing they had back then, correct me if I got the period wrong)
If they won't allow players to play as evil Kuritans they sure as hell won't allow them to play as Smoke Jaguars who are just as evil as Kuritans
Again, they need to sell this thing
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Absodamnlutely. The Battle of Luthien is begging for a proper presentation (most especially the involved units, yiiiiiiikes), and a Turning Points would be so perfect for that.
Right?!? People who can't stand the Clans or the Draconis Combine would still want this product.
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Now let's go back to the real world: What's actually going to happen in this new Clan MW videogame is that they will simply pull a good old Star Wars
There will be several missions against other Clans and pirates but once Jaguars make contact with the Inner Sphere the protagonist will defect to the other side after seeing the error of their ways and will continue fighting for truth, justice and the FedCom/Wolf way (whichever they decide to skedaddle to)
No way we will get to play the villain in a videogame that is sold for money
Just look at latest expansion for MW5: players are apparently fighting for the Kuritans but not exactly since they will actually be playing as mercenaries working somehow for Kuritans (despite the whole Kuritan "no to mercenaries" thing they had back then, correct me if I got the period wrong)
If they won't allow players to play as evil Kuritans they sure as hell won't allow them to play as Smoke Jaguars who are just as evil as Kuritans
Again, they need to sell this thing
I hope not. The point was to show the perspective of the clans. I suspect it'd be more in line with what Trent experienced - the player fighting against ever more desperate odds, against enemies both external and internal politics, for an ideal that seems further and further away, until there is nothing left but the chance for redemption with Trent and Paul Moon.
It'd take great storytelling, but that's what the developers are for!
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Tukayyid was important for Jaguars in the same way as Operation Scorpion was important for ComStar: beginning of an end but hardly epic
That's... certainly an opinion. Tukayyid is pretty universally considered to be epic.
And I may be minority here but it's definitely not Smoke Jaguar videogame material, videogames need to move copies and Tukayyid is a miserable end to a story on their side
Imagine thinking that the most famous battle the Clans as a whole have ever fought isn't videogame material. Yeah, you're definitely in the minority on that one.
Plus in post-Tex/Red40k era anything about Tukayyid that isn't centered solely around ComStar with tagline "Get *****, Clanner!!!" will cause fandom-wide meltdowns of epic proportions
I seriously doubt the developers are paying much attention (if any) to some random YouTubers and the cringy portion of their listeners who'd actually act like this.
Or if they really want to show downfall of Jaguars while avoiding their silliness on Tukayyid they should just do a time skip before last several missions, play cutscene about how hard Jaguars screwed up an and have last missions take place on Huntress as protagonists get mauled by SERPENT while they ride their Threshers in hopeless last stand as disposable solahama while string orchestra plays in the background
It would be nonsensical to build up to an epic battle just to skip over it.
All Jaguars got was a meme, their HQ might as well have been a circus tent while their comms played Benny Hill music throughout the whole thing
Imagine thinking Luthien was any less of a meme for the Jaguars.
Now let's go back to the real world: What's actually going to happen in this new Clan MW videogame is that they will simply pull a good old Star Wars
There will be several missions against other Clans and pirates but once Jaguars make contact with the Inner Sphere the protagonist will defect to the other side after seeing the error of their ways and will continue fighting for truth, justice and the FedCom/Wolf way (whichever they decide to skedaddle to)
No way we will get to play the villain in a videogame that is sold for money
Just look at latest expansion for MW5: players are apparently fighting for the Kuritans but not exactly since they will actually be playing as mercenaries working somehow for Kuritans (despite the whole Kuritan "no to mercenaries" thing they had back then, correct me if I got the period wrong)
If they won't allow players to play as evil Kuritans they sure as hell won't allow them to play as Smoke Jaguars who are just as evil as Kuritans
Again, they need to sell this thing
... we're literally going to be commanding a Star of Smoke Jaguars. Says so right in the announcement. What are you even talking about?
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“Won’t sell a game where you are the bad guys”
GrandTheftAuto, Saints Row, Payday, Hitman would love a word.
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That's... certainly an opinion. Tukayyid is pretty universally considered to be epic. ...
It's amazingly epic
But not for Smoke Jaguars
Hell, they were first ones to slither away with their tails between their keisters, they weren't even around for the whole thing
Imagine thinking that the most famous battle the Clans as a whole have ever fought isn't videogame material. Yeah, you're definitely in the minority on that one.
It was definitely a famous battle which Clans fought
But again, not for Smoke Jaguars
It's a story of ComStar valor and Clan Wolf brilliance
And a story of how Khan of Smoke Jaguars got stuck under a falling mech despite having jet engine strapped to his posterior while supposedly being the most amazing Elemental ever
It's side splitting material
I seriously doubt the developers are paying much attention (if any) to some random YouTubers and the cringy portion of their listeners who'd actually act like this.
They were featured prominently in the Kickstarter
I'd say developers are definitely paying attention
It would be nonsensical to build up to an epic battle just to skip over it.
I never said they should skip over Luthien
Imagine thinking Luthien was any less of a meme for the Jaguars.
Luthien was THEIR story
Up until then they were still the top dog and they burned themselves out over there like proper troopers
Tukayyid is story about how they became a sideshow in a tale of their own demise, ComStar, Focht, Wolves, VSD and Second Star League were the main event afterwards
... we're literally going to be commanding a Star of Smoke Jaguars. Says so right in the announcement. What are you even talking about?
You were playing as Imperials in Star Wars Battlefront 2
It lasted for whole three levels
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“Won’t sell a game where you are the bad guys”
GrandTheftAuto, Saints Row, Payday, Hitman would love a word.
In Payday you are penalized for killing civilians (and banks in game are secretly evil or something)
In Hitman you are penalized for killing civilians (and all your targets are criminals or terrorist)
Latest Saints Row was certainly a video game
GTA is a tounge in cheek riff on gangster films and is not taking itself seriously unlike BattleTech/MechWarrior which take themselves dead serious
Also the year is 2023 not 2003, I remember buying and playing Manhunt back in those days but those days are long gone, good luck getting something like that now
Of course it's just my estimate and (hopefully) I may be wrong but there are certain trends in this day and age that are hard to ignore
Latest MW5 expansion certainly isn't looking like it will be bucking any trends unfortunately
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It's amazingly epic
But not for Smoke Jaguars
Hell, they were first ones to slither away with their tails between their keisters, they weren't even around for the whole thing
They mostly left on day three. I think four clans were gone by day five. Would need to grab the Tukayyid book to be sure. Jaguars being mocked for Tukayyid is exaggerated when Sharks and Nova Cats took worse beatings. They just took them slightly slower. And for how much wolf is praised for Tukayyid, their touman took the same beating Falcons and Bears did.
I never said they should skip over Luthien
Luthien was THEIR story
Up until then they were still the top dog and they burned themselves out over there like proper troopers
Tukayyid is story about how they became a sideshow in a tale of their own demise, ComStar, Focht, Wolves, VSD and Second Star League were the main event afterwards
I hate to break it to you. Smoke Jaguars were never top dogs. Clan invasion wasn’t a Jaguar Story. It was a DC, Lyran, and Clan Wolf story.
How is luthien, where Jags were beat by dirty tricks and mercenaries, a better story for them than where they fought the last shreds of the Star League (ComStar) in the biggest battle since the SLDF kicked Amaris off Terra, in a trial where the fate of the sphere hung by a thread on the results? It was the most clanniest of clan moments to ever exist in the setting.
Yeah, they lost. They lost because their opponent was better. Same as Luthien.
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They mostly left on day three. I think four clans were gone by day five. Would need to grab the Tukayyid book to be sure. Jaguars being mocked for Tukayyid is exaggerated when Sharks and Nova Cats took worse beatings. They just took them slightly slower. And for how much wolf is praised for Tukayyid, their touman took the same beating Falcons and Bears did.
I hate to break it to you. Smoke Jaguars were never top dogs. Clan invasion wasn’t a Jaguar Story. It was a DC, Lyran, and Clan Wolf story. ....
Which is exactly why a videogame about Clan Smoke Jaguar should focus on parts which are about Clan Smoke Jaguar
Leave DC, Lyran and Wolf big moments for videogames about DC, Lyrans and Wolves
Tukayyid is ComStar's big moment, it should be in videogame about ComStar
(And speaking of Wolves and their losses we need to remember the wise words of is Dom Toretto: "It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning.")
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Okay, I'll bite: what's the Jaguar "big moment" that should be the finale of a video game about them?
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Okay, I'll bite: what's the Jaguar "big moment" that should be the finale of a video game about them?
For a ~15 mission game like upcoming one with announced start date? Luthien: blaze of glory for the protagonist character without getting overshadowed
For something down the road on the timeline? Huntress or Strana Mechty (my personal preference being Huntress): blaze of glory for the Clan with some melancholic vibes as bonus
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Tukayyid is ComStar's big moment, it should be in videogame about ComStar
The recent Tukayyid book, gave the Jags an opportunity to capture Fotch and decapitate Comstar. It would be a shame if the game ended in a double defeat of Luthan and Tukayyid without at least giving the Jags the option for victory.
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For a ~15 mission game like upcoming one with announced start date? Luthien: blaze of glory for the protagonist character without getting overshadowed
For something down the road on the timeline? Huntress or Strana Mechty (my personal preference being Huntress): blaze of glory for the Clan with some melancholic vibes as bonus
By your own logic, wouldn't those be the "Big Moments" for the DC and the Second Star League?
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By your own logic, wouldn't those be the "Big Moments" for the DC and the Second Star League?
They would be decently large but they had plenty of other ones and much bigger as well (also, getting their bacon saved by mercenaries hired by their arch nemesis puts quite a dent in DCs moment TBH)
Jaguars have much more limited selection of which these two work best both as finales and as being Jaguar centric
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It's amazingly epic
But not for Smoke Jaguars
Hell, they were first ones to slither away with their tails between their keisters, they weren't even around for the whole thing
I fail to see how their complete and total defeat on Luthien was more epic than the Trial to end all Trials (at least until ilClan came along).
It was definitely a famous battle which Clans fought
But again, not for Smoke Jaguars
It's a story of ComStar valor and Clan Wolf brilliance
And a story of how Khan of Smoke Jaguars got stuck under a falling mech despite having jet engine strapped to his posterior while supposedly being the most amazing Elemental ever
It's side splitting material
Show some intellectual honesty and just say you don't like the story.
They were featured prominently in the Kickstarter
I'd say developers are definitely paying attention
If you honestly think a game developer is using Tex's opinions to inform their game, well, there's not much I can say about that which won't come off as me laughing at the idea.
I never said they should skip over Luthien
No, you said they should skip over Tukayyid, which is what I was responding to.
Luthien was THEIR story
Up until then they were still the top dog and they burned themselves out over there like proper troopers
Tukayyid is story about how they became a sideshow in a tale of their own demise, ComStar, Focht, Wolves, VSD and Second Star League were the main event afterwards
As opposed to Luthien, the story of their utter idiocy in announcing their intentions, refusing to work with their allies, continually demonstrating their lack of ability to adjust to "dirty Spheroid" tactics, and getting defeated in detail.
You were playing as Imperials in Star Wars Battlefront 2
It lasted for whole three levels
It's like you're being deliberately obtuse here. The expansion's announcement specifically states that we will be following the exploits of a Smoke Jaguar Star.
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How is luthien, where Jags were beat by dirty tricks and mercenaries, a better story for them than where they fought the last shreds of the Star League (ComStar) in the biggest battle since the SLDF kicked Amaris off Terra, in a trial where the fate of the sphere hung by a thread on the results? It was the most clanniest of clan moments to ever exist in the setting.
100% this. Like, I can't even fathom the logic it takes to try to argue against this irrefutable fact.
Which is exactly why a videogame about Clan Smoke Jaguar should focus on parts which are about Clan Smoke Jaguar
Tukayyid checks that box, whether or not you like it or agree with it.
You're also assuming the fact that a story about Smoke Jaguars will be a story about villains... you do realize that not all Smoke Jaguars are villains, right? We just had an entire novel (Jaguars Leap) full of 'em. BattleTech is very much a shades-of-grey setting and there are very few outright villainous characters, even amongst the Jaguars.
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And the Jaguars got pasted on Luthien, too. Doesn't make either story less epic.
Show some intellectual honesty and just say you don't like the story....
Seriously, this?
Dude, I LOVE the story and I'd love nothing more than to experience it from the perspective of ComStar, Wolves or Falcons (Aidan Pryde, man, can you even imagine what kind of epic last level of a game that would be? Stoked beyond belief)
I just don't feel the urge to experience it from the perspective of biggest chumps involved
It would be like paying money to experience the highschool party from the perspective of a guy who got stuffed in the locker the moment he showed up
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And yet you think the Jaguars weren't the biggest chumps on Luthien. I can't even take this seriously anymore.
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I think playing a hopeless last stand during BULLDOG or Huntress would be narratively fun, though I'm not sure about mass market appeal even within Mechwarrior's inherent niche.
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And yet you think the Jaguars weren't the biggest chumps on Luthien. I can't even take this seriously anymore.
Luthien was chump little league, winning that isn't too bad, plenty of invasions failed before and would fail since
Tukayyid however was chump Superbowl with insane competition and Jaguars not only resoundingly won the championship ring there but also managed to enter chump NFL Hall of Fame at the same time
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Why not do Tukayyid? The game isn't canon, the canon outcome doesn't have to happen. There's no straightjacket here forcing the player to lose at the end.
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Why not do Tukayyid? The game isn't canon, the canon outcome doesn't have to happen. There's no straightjacket here forcing the player to lose at the end.
Now there’s a fun capstone mission. You take out Focht.
Have it end up being a bodyguard instead or have it have been him. Have fun with it
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Personally, I'm hoping for some branching story options based on your performance, like if you successfully compete for a Bloodname and make it to Star Colonel you'll get different missions than if you never make it past Star Commander.
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Personally, I'm hoping for some branching story options based on your performance, like if you successfully compete for a Bloodname and make it to Star Colonel you'll get different missions than if you never make it past Star Commander.
I’m now awaiting the achievement of being the only solamha Smoke Jaguar on tukayyid.
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Reminds me of Wing Commander. Screw up enough and you wind up being tossed into the grinder defending Earth in light fighters because they have nothing else.
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I’m now awaiting the achievement of being the only solamha Smoke Jaguar on tukayyid.
Screw up badly enough and you wind up getting sent back to Huntress instead of getting to participate on Tukayyid.
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Screw up badly enough and you wind up getting sent back to Huntress instead of getting to participate on Tukayyid.
Not gonna lie, I'd love to see Huntress. I wanna see Lootera and Mount Szabo and the repository and the jungles and... just all of it, really.
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Yes, that would be the unlocked ultra-secret last mission. Have to jump through the hoops just right to get it.
Now it's pie-in-the-sky wish time: MW6, a whole game based on Operation Bulldog and Operation Serpent would be great unto itself. Especially if players could choose being SL 2.0 or Jags. Yes, you would be railroaded into losing as the Jags, but if you keep mitigating enough loses, perhaps there's a good shot at a Jag victory on Huntress at the end.
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It's possible to have the Jags win in-game.
After all, the Jade Falcon campaign for Mechwarrior 2 had the Falcons winning even though it wasn't canon.
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Yeah, or the completely non-canon campaign that resulted in the total destruction of the Crusader Wolves in Ghost Bear's Legacy.
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Or storyboard it...
" Even though you fought hard and persevered through the Trials against you, your victory was taken from you as your Clan was torn from your grasp. MechWarrior, Huntress has fallen, the Jaguar is no more. The Star League has won, there is the matter of Clan honor and your Codex is strong, attend to this matter, a bondscord is awaiting for you. "
Or something like that...
TT
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Or "The sting of defeat is lessened by the honor you earned for your own deeds. And with the leaders of the debacle dead and dishonored, there is now an opening for an ambitious ristar to take a new role in rebuilding your shattered Clan into something stronger and better than it was before. If that ristar has the ambition and skill to act..."
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Or (depending how you do) you stand beside Trent and Paul Moon and many other warriors to ultimately create the Fidelis.
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Eh, the game is probably going to end in 3052 and it's most likely that the protagonist will just get an ambiguous ending about what they might do rather than something so definitive.
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I vote for a REACH like ending either and or Tukyaaid / Lithiuen, especially if the game is going to "end" around 3052
MW6 needs to be a game like MW5 Mercs, where you can choose your (major) Clan or House (and play from their perspective) and have a non cannon Inner Sphere, all the way up to ilClan ? As mentioned before start with jihad (as end of MW4: Mercs hints at it, quiaff) and have DLC content for it
Multiplayer can be a next gen re do of MWO
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After all, the Jade Falcon campaign for Mechwarrior 2 had the Falcons winning even though it wasn't canon.
I seem to recall that game ending exactly the same way Bred for War did: messily enough that both sides could declare victory, after a bit of a rhetorical stretch.
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Speaking of messy little victories in the context of greater defeats, a fun way to end the Jaguar campaign would be to make Tukayyid the penultimate mission. Then for the last one, they ship you back to the OZ just in time to help put down Operation Scorpion...
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Just throwing this question out:
Almost every clan has their unique awards, decorations, and rituals. What are these for the Smoke Jaguars before their Annihilation? I scanned through the Invading Clans sourcebook - nada. Nothing much in the novel 'Exodus Road' either.
Any info?
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Per Imputes of War, one Jaguar ritual is that blood must be shed any time a new commanding officer takes control of a unit, even if it's not a Trial of Position. Another is that bidding is done by the competing commanders hurling five-pointed shurikens at a board, with each shuriken representing a star of force- points of the shuriken can be broken off when bidding less than a full star. Hitting someone else's shuriken hard enough to break it grants some sort of advantage (I forget the precise effects).
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Battlescar?
TT
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Per Imputes of War, one Jaguar ritual is that blood must be shed any time a new commanding officer takes control of a unit, even if it's not a Trial of Position. Another is that bidding is done by the competing commanders hurling five-pointed shurikens at a board, with each shuriken representing a star of force- points of the shuriken can be broken off when bidding less than a full star. Hitting someone else's shuriken hard enough to break it grants some sort of advantage (I forget the precise effects).
That only appeared once. It's sometimes quite exasperating to have writers introduce neat elements but not sustained in future books. BLP wrote Impetus of War and Exodus Road, but he wasn't even consistent with his own books.
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Don't get me started on him. Still, it's the only bit of lore regarding any sort of Jaguar rituals that I'm aware of.
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Randomly, happy to notice the Star League Jaguars get the Exterminator 7X. The Poseidon and Omega are probably more notable though; MUL error or?
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Another is that bidding is done by the competing commanders hurling five-pointed shurikens at a board, with each shuriken representing a star of force- points of the shuriken can be broken off when bidding less than a full star. Hitting someone else's shuriken hard enough to break it grants some sort of advantage (I forget the precise effects).
I'm sorry, but that's absolutely cringetastic even for the Clans and I'm glad it was left on the dung heap. :laugh:
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I had never heard of the shuriken one before, and I agree, that's dumb.
Randomly, happy to notice the Star League Jaguars get the Exterminator 7X. The Poseidon and Omega are probably more notable though; MUL error or?
There are a few machines on the MUL that seem to represent some of the old Fidelis flavor (top-end RAF special forces) has carried over to the new Jaguars.
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I had never heard of the shuriken one before, and I agree, that's dumb.
There are a few machines on the MUL that seem to represent some of the old Fidelis flavor (top-end RAF special forces) has carried over to the new Jaguars.
Makes sense. They'd take their machines with them. And being on the MUL doesn't mean they can produce them necessarily, right?
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I'm sorry, but that's absolutely cringetastic even for the Clans and I'm glad it was left on the dung heap. :laugh:
Oh, it gets worse. I went back and checked the novel and after throwing, a Jaguar commander is supposed to put their hand on the board while the next bidder throws their stars. And on top of that, the throwing is done blind- you choose what you're going to bid with your back to the board, then turn and throw in one motion. If you hit one of the other bidders, you lose the star that struck them. It's 100% pure, unfiltered edgelord.
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Oh, it gets worse. I went back and checked the novel and after throwing, a Jaguar commander is supposed to put their hand on the board while the next bidder throws their stars. And on top of that, the throwing is done blind- you choose what you're going to bid with your back to the board, then turn and throw in one motion. If you hit one of the other bidders, you lose the star that struck them. It's 100% pure, unfiltered edgelord.
Makes me wonder how many times they had to call a mech tech in with a pipe wrench to pry free a shuriken that’s embedded in some elemental commander’s skull. The elemental is fine, just angry.
And this isn’t even fun stupid like having a bunch of unarmed clan warriors hunt apex predators (looking at you, Horses and Bears). I’m glad it got dropped.
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Like many of us, I read every one of those Twilight of the Clans novels. I must have blocked that shuriken stuff out because I only remembered it when MLO4H brought it up again a couple days ago.
You can't even say "no wonder they..." You have to go back to "how did they ever manage to become a premier Clan over so many other [comparably] reasonable Clans?"
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Like many of us, I read every one of those Twilight of the Clans novels. I must have blocked that shuriken stuff out because I only remembered it when MLO4H brought it up again a couple days ago.
You can't even say "no wonder they..." You have to go back to "how did they ever manage to become a premier Clan over so many other [comparably] reasonable Clans?"
In Twilight, Jaguars don’t do any of that. They are portrayed as an increasingly savage people who engage in ‘dishonorable politics’ per Trent. They aren’t portrayed as 2Dumb2Live. There is the novel Freebirth, but the galaxy commander doing all that stuff to Horse is viewed by other warriors on planet as a maniac for doing it
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Makes sense. They'd take their machines with them. And being on the MUL doesn't mean they can produce them necessarily, right?
correct. if listings were limited to production, they would be MUCH smaller.
the RAF does have a pile of gear incorporated from various clan sources they absorbed at their founding, yes.
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So since what we have was mostly cringeworthy stuff, are there any plausible traditions/customs that can be grafted onto the existing fiction for the Jags? Maybe stuff that some enterprising GM thought of, etc.
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In Twilight, Jaguars don’t do any of that. They are portrayed as an increasingly savage people who engage in ‘dishonorable politics’ per Trent. They aren’t portrayed as 2Dumb2Live. There is the novel Freebirth, but the galaxy commander doing all that stuff to Horse is viewed by other warriors on planet as a maniac for doing it
That's right. Impetus of War was right before TotC. It's still close enough to that time, though. The real point is it's silly and I'm glad it was a one off depiction, canon or otherwise.
So since what we have was mostly cringeworthy stuff, are there any plausible traditions/customs that can be grafted onto the existing fiction for the Jags? Maybe stuff that some enterprising GM thought of, etc.
Here is one that was definitely from the Twilight of the Clans series - when a Galaxy was being transferred to another Galaxy Commander, there was still a demand of ritual combat, as the Jags can't have any hint of PeaceTech.
So when the newly commissioned Tau Galaxy was brought down the Exodus Road, the new Galaxy Commander and the old one went at it and the new one then took the Field Marshall's baton.
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Ritual violence for transfer of commands at least makes sense without being overly silly.
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Ritual violence for transfer of commands at least makes sense without being overly silly.
Definitely better than the shuriken bit.
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Hello Jaguar Fans,
Looking for some help.
I'm trying to assemble Jaguar Warship info from Operation Bulldog.
Specifically Where/What ships saw combat in the OZ.
I know the Novels mentioned an Avatar refit, I forget the clan name, being at Huntress.
And I'm pretty sure a couple are mentioned in Scenario Books.
Living Legends had the York/Lioness at Schwartz IIRC before Bulldog.
While Dragon Roars has a Congress & Lola-3 at Luzern in Wave-2.
DR also mentions a "naval battle" at Port Arther but no other info.
So I'm wondering about other notations.
I know FM:U lists off a bunch of hulls captured, destroyed, mothballed, etc etc, but not locations where fights happened.
That is what I'm looking for.
What ships were at what worlds & faced off against who in the OZ?
Looking forward to any info you can add to what I have.
Thanks in advance!
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Smoke_Jaguar_Naval_Forces
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Thanks for that.
Not a ton of added info for specific worlds.
I do see the Matamoras notation for the Griffin/Lola but everything else seems pretty vague or else made it to Huntress.
Impressive total fleet over the Jag's lifetime, I count 26 warships to include a pair of Battleships in total.
I think I need to go back & re-read the entire ToC series for a refresher on some of these references.
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Curious...
Can a scuttled vessel be reclaimed?
If so, someone might want to...
Homie or otherwise...
TT
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Just from the couple of examples I've seen in print (WoR comes to mind for me, when the Adders clashed with the Burrocks/Dark Caste at one of their mothballed naval caches), I think the point of scuttling vessels is specifically so they can't be reclaimed.
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To scuttle a vessel in a maritime sense is to literally sink it, usually assisted by something that renders it incapable of staying afloat. In a space context it would probably involve catastrophic and irreparable damage to the jump drive if not the complete explosive destruction of the ship.
"Recovery" would be in name only.
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Except even if the drive gets whacked, you can always bring in a new core.
And as for recovery, what's destroyed vs. salvage, there are rolls for that.
A one off ship vs. something that has multiple hulls, any Post Klondike build, not refit, could be reproduced.
TT
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Well there is always the option to crash the ship into something. Preferably a sun
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There is that... But generally it'll be worth something to recover...
TT
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Except even if the drive gets whacked, you can always bring in a new core.
No, you can't. It's impossible to transport a jump drive with a jump. You'd have to build it on-site, and at that point you might as well just build a new ship.
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And scuttling almost certainly involves aiming the carcass on a trajectory that takes it into a gas giant or out of the solar system.
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I would agree that a scuttled ship isn't going to be useful for anything but scrap & that is assuming you can find it.
A ship is scuttled when its crew deliberately sinks it, typically by deliberately opening holes in its hull.
Scuttling may be performed to dispose of an abandoned, old, or captured vessel
; to prevent the vessel from becoming a navigation hazard
; as an act of self-destruction to prevent the ship from being captured by an enemy force
(or, in the case of a vessel engaged in illegal activities, by the authorities)
; as a blockship to restrict navigation through a channel or within a harbor
; to provide an artificial reef for divers and marine life; or to alter the flow of rivers.
v/s
"Mothball Fleet".
While the details of the maintenance activity have changed several times, the basics are constant:
keep the ships afloat and sufficiently working as to be reactivated quickly in an emergency.
Now my question is, why would they have scuttled so many instead of scrapping them for materials or mothballing them for future use/scrap?
For a Blackwater Warship, yeah, on top of seriously damaging the KF Drive & Engines, I'd think that a course set for deep space or the nearest star wouldn't be out of the question.
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Now my question is, why would they have scuttled so many instead of scrapping them for materials or mothballing them for future use/scrap?
Lack of ability to do so in a timely manner or lack of confidence in their ability to keep hold of any resulting salvage instead of losing it to another Clan?
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Lack of ability to do so in a timely manner or lack of confidence in their ability to keep hold of any resulting salvage instead of losing it to another Clan?
That's actually exactly the reason why the Adders scuttled the hulls at their naval cache: they didn't have time to get them going again, and the Burrocks/Dark Caste were already aware of the cache's location.
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It's the same reason you scuttle a ship in real life; you don't want the enemy to capture it. If you want to get rid of a ship but aren't pressed for time, you scrap and recycle it instead.
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Wouldn't booby trapping them work?
TT
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Wouldn't booby trapping them work?
That's extremely unClan-like, and you run the risk of your enemies defusing the traps and turning the ships against you anyway.
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Not if you removed memory bank modules and set the explosives towards key locations, like s critical power junction or cryogenic tank.
What is mothball?
A ship cleared out and sealed up with most items removed that can be violative.
Air seals open and spaced to provide less explosive decompressions, certain areas welded shut...
But a booby trap could be the area sealed with gasses like Carbon Dioxides and pressurized so that opening them without depressing could cause severe damages to the capture crews.
A techs life is cheap, a warrior would most likely be armored or in a skinsuit with helmet, but still, floating objects huri. Especially if they are not seen... Small grains of sand or metal shavings...
TT
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Still pretty far outside of acceptable for clan warriors.
Suicide bombers, murdering civilians, Mass punishment of civilians for actions of insurgents, orbitally bombarding cities, headhunting, slaughtering surrendering troops, consigning enemies to the desert to die, depriving civilians of necessities to survive, etc. are all fair game.
But laying non-combat traps is somehow one thing they won’t do.
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https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/products/camo-specs-online-a-guide-to-faction-paint-schemes-clan-smoke-jaguar
In case anyone missed this coming out. As I knew the history and fates of all the units involved and their colors, it doesn't do a whole lot for me, but it's always nice to see minis in Jag colors painted by those far more skilled than I. Also, God bless the artist who did the tutorial for telling people to use a Future floor wax glosscoat before pin-washing. That technique really brings me back 15-20 years.
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https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/products/camo-specs-online-a-guide-to-faction-paint-schemes-clan-smoke-jaguar
In case anyone missed this coming out. As I knew the history and fates of all the units involved and their colors, it doesn't do a whole lot for me, but it's always nice to see minis in Jag colors painted by those far more skilled than I. Also, God bless the artist who did the tutorial for telling people to use a Future floor wax glosscoat before pin-washing. That technique really brings me back 15-20 years.
Very cool! Is this new?
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Yes, it was just released Friday.
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https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/products/camo-specs-online-a-guide-to-faction-paint-schemes-clan-smoke-jaguar
In case anyone missed this coming out. As I knew the history and fates of all the units involved and their colors, it doesn't do a whole lot for me, but it's always nice to see minis in Jag colors painted by those far more skilled than I. Also, God bless the artist who did the tutorial for telling people to use a Future floor wax glosscoat before pin-washing. That technique really brings me back 15-20 years.
I'm wondering how many of the unit schemes will translate to the new era (IKEO might have info in it on this or not). I'm curious if any schemes change by galaxy or not once numbers are increased. The GenCon diorama had Alpha Galaxy and some of the Keshik schemes if my memory serves me correctly.
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I came here to ask this, do we know which schemes are still viable or if there are new ones? I kinda want to paint up an Omega :grin:
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Welcome Rockslide, as far as I know, Alpha Galaxy is the only lock for schemes in the ilClan era, though I think I've seen somebody mention the Keshik schemes were spotted on the recent GenCon CSO table. The Star League Jaguars do get Omegas according to the MUL, which I only realized just now... :evil: