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BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: ClarkeMarek on 27 January 2011, 04:10:49

Title: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ClarkeMarek on 27 January 2011, 04:10:49
Leave it to me to start the roll call.  Who else made it over that supports the Sharks/Foxes? ???
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 27 January 2011, 11:48:31
I support anyone who sells me the good stuff. ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ShockaTime on 27 January 2011, 14:07:26
i like the sharks/foxes, and i'm even more excited to learn more about the clan during the Dark Age when they turn into a space-traveling merchant society.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wolf Lancer 4 on 27 January 2011, 15:54:19
Leave it to the Sharks to have the longest thread name in the Clan Chatterweb. ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Moonsword on 27 January 2011, 16:00:52
At least it fits - some of the new user names don't fit and keep running over into other areas.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ClarkeMarek on 27 January 2011, 16:16:36
Now guys, we are free to post wherever our heart leads us to.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Moonsword on 27 January 2011, 16:18:24
I'm not talking about the area.  I'm talking about the layout.  Some of the names are sprawling over into the topic titles.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ClarkeMarek on 27 January 2011, 16:20:22
Oh, my bad... :-[
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Moonsword on 27 January 2011, 16:20:59
Not a problem.  I wasn't entirely specific on what I was talking about right there.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Carbon Elasmobranch on 27 January 2011, 16:59:10
My anchor to BattleTech over the years.  And a source of terrible crossover puns with Exalted.

Still not clear about that switch back to Sea Foxes in 3100.  Or supportive.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 27 January 2011, 21:08:00
I really like the Sharks/Foxes.  They are just cool...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 28 January 2011, 02:08:46
I can once again note the irony in using a certain web browser when viewing a thread about the Sea Foxes!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Carbon Elasmobranch on 28 January 2011, 12:40:14
I can once again note the irony in using a certain web browser when viewing a thread about the Sea Foxes!

"Sea Fox has encountered a fatal error with Snow Raven.  Press any key to change name."
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 28 January 2011, 18:03:10
There's something about the Sharks/Foxes I really enjoy.  They're definitely a Clan with character.  I'm wishing I hadn't loaned out my copy of FM: Warden Clans years ago so I could actually remember more about them.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 30 January 2011, 00:00:13
One thing you can count on, the Sharks/Foxes will survive.  In one form or another.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Hawkeye Jim on 30 January 2011, 00:30:38
Having worked in retail for many years when I was younger, and doing collector's shows sometimes on weekends, I can identify with a Clan who looks at the profit/loss column before they start shooting. The less you destroy, the more you have to sell later.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 30 January 2011, 13:08:11
Having worked in retail for many years when I was younger, and doing collector's shows sometimes on weekends, I can identify with a Clan who looks at the profit/loss column before they start shooting. The less you destroy, the more you have to sell later.

And the more people you piss off, the smaller your consumer base.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 30 January 2011, 21:35:52
One thing you can count on, the Sharks/Foxes will survive.  In one form or another.
Just like roaches, right? ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 30 January 2011, 21:52:58
Just like roaches, right? ;)

After going back to Sea Foxes, they go on for a while and then become Clan Dire Roach, and conquer Terra.  They then proceed to open up bidding.  Surprisingly, Terra ends up as property of the Grand Duchy of Furillo, which no one saw coming (except for the Furillans).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Neufeld on 09 February 2011, 18:11:47
When I first started familiarize myself with Battletech the Sharks was one of my favorite clans. Now, it seems that they have just faded away into the background becoming more of a plot device than a faction. So I am asking:
- What cool things have the Sharks done recently (Jihad era), or will do as Foxes during the Dark Age?
- Has the Sharks made some cool and good stuff recently?

Show me that the Sharks have not jumped the shark.  :-\  :'(

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Daishi411 on 28 February 2011, 16:34:30
question for the sharks. I was reading M and M again today and i re-read naomi nagasawa and xoc's bios. I can't believe it never hit me before but it said that she wanted to change the sharks and that xoc may be in on it. do you think that maybe it's these two people that form the basis on which the sharks become the space faring fleet they do in the DA as well as the name change?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Moonsword on 28 February 2011, 19:25:08
You're almost certainly correct about them being behind the organizational change on reviewing the INN Touring the Stars articles on the Foxes.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Flerith on 02 March 2011, 10:22:22
I still have my copy of Warden Clans and that's where my love for the Clan started.

"Upon gaining control of Clan Sea Fox, Khan Nagasawa took immediate steps to ensure her Clan’s long-term viability.  Her historical studies had led her to believe that the Star League’s greatest strength had come from its material prosperity and the value it placed on the individual citizen.  She saw both as compatible with the Clan way, including the Clan’s caste system.  She therefore supported cooperation and interdependence between her Clan’s castes, a policy that paid dividends."

It goes on to say how the Sea Foxes wheeled and dealed their way throughout Can history and even led/assisted with the changes in the clans involving Iron-woumb, Chatterweb, Omni-Mech, Elementals...

In the aftermath of the invasion they saw that they had gone down the wrong path by throwing in with the crusaders so they changed their tactics and went back to doing what they do best: seek out new opportunities and invest in their future.

They assisted the Nova Cats when they moved to the Draconis Combine, and are allies of the Ghost Bears.

They started producing more mechs for sale to the other Clans and eventually to the Inner Sphere, they also aided worlds hit hard by the Jihad with their merchant fleets.

It is my belief that though the Sea Foxes are a mercantile Clan, they are also the Clan of individual liberty, cross-caste respect, and understand the true value of people.

I think that in moving to the scattered clearing worlds and keeping to their fleets, that the Sea Foxes represent a lesser profile to agressors, can mobilize their forces faster than any other power, and keep the trade lines open to all the Inner Sphere Powers.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Moonsword on 02 March 2011, 12:10:03
It is my belief that though the Sea Foxes are a mercantile Clan, they are also the Clan of individual liberty, cross-caste respect, and understand the true value of people.

Usually.  There at least was a strain of conservatives (or perhaps reactionaries) that felt differently judging from the information about Ian Hawker in ER3052.

I think that in moving to the scattered clearing worlds and keeping to their fleets, that the Sea Foxes represent a lesser profile to agressors, can mobilize their forces faster than any other power, and keep the trade lines open to all the Inner Sphere Powers.

While their ability to respond to events is higher overall, their ability to concentrate forces to do so is impaired because their forces are heavily dispersed.  That's not necessarily a problem depending on what they need to do but it's something to keep in mind.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Guardsman on 12 March 2011, 17:09:20
Should anyone want to make use of it, here's an image of the Sea Fox insignia.

(http://i52.tinypic.com/5ph2sx.png)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 12 March 2011, 19:06:49
Had I not just switched to the Brain Slug picture, I'd be tempted to go for that one.  It's a cool logo.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Guardsman on 12 March 2011, 19:10:58
Had I not just switched to the Brain Slug picture, I'd be tempted to go for that one.  It's a cool logo.

Yeah, I really can't fault the new faction logos. Sea Fox, Rasalhague Dominion, and Raven Alliance are all cool.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Fatebringer on 24 March 2011, 13:42:52
I think Firefox stole your old logo :P you should do a ToP to get it back  [rockon]
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Daishi411 on 24 March 2011, 13:45:00
I think Firefox stole your old logo :P you should do a ToP to get it back  [rockon]

ha! i never noticed that before, that's actually hilarious  [wildandcrazy]
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wotan on 19 April 2011, 14:17:48
I just reading some of the later TROs and are wondering how many new designs the Diamond Sharks are building in the meanwhile. I even more wondering that i don't remember any Omnimech factory the Sharks have in the time around 3067.

Do i miss something or are they focusing on secondliners ?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Water Kitsune on 03 May 2011, 19:08:58
Hello all! Been a long time gamer, and finally coming back to one of the games that started it all for me. I got into BT in '97-'98 playing pickup games during lunch/after school in middle school, but didn't keep it up because of lack of interest in others. Now with one of the LGS having a fairly decent community, and me having a better skill with models(ty 40K) I'm starting to look at collecting again. While I liked the universe, I wasn't aware of a faction that really called to me. I'm a bit of a Highlander and later Archer's Avengers fan but after reading the Diamond shark/Sea Fox fluff, it clicked.

I'm looking for ideas for a fluffy custom cluster, that is a bit of combined arms. I've only got the Summoner and Hellbringer from the recent starter atm, but looking for ideas. Reason I'm building around a cluster, is to be a show unit, and yet still have enough elements I can mix and match for various games if I need to.

The way I picture the unit, without specific mechs/units atm:
Cluster-3 trinaries/novas

Trinary 1
2 full stars of mechs
1 star 3 mechs 2 points of elementals

Trinary-2
2 full stars of mechs
1 star- 2 points vehicles 3 points elementals

Trinary 3
2 Full stars of mechs
1 star aerospace

In terms of actual units I don't know exactly whats fitting where at the moment, some advice on if the Force org is fairly true to the sharks, and which units might make sense in the cluster(I will probably use an assortment of clan tech, but none that is unique to a clan)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Darthvegeta800 on 12 August 2011, 08:47:45
What things of importance have the Sharks done during the War of Reaving and the Jihad?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Stockus13 on 12 August 2011, 10:13:46
Well the big thing they did was: survive.

In the DA timeline they seem like mobile merchants, with few land based enclaves.

My memory on the rest is hazy been a few years since I read those books.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Hawkeye Jim on 12 August 2011, 11:24:46
The Sharks have always been merchants. Now they're just more mobile than they used to be.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Darthvegeta800 on 12 August 2011, 11:30:51
Isn't that mobile thing just post Jihad? I mean have they had bigger confrontations in the Jihad era? Or related to the War of Reaving?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Hawkeye Jim on 12 August 2011, 11:39:29
Before the WoR, they were looking for bases in the IS from which to work. Remember, they were at one time part of the invasion force, and started out lending there merchant services to the other Clans.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: txMaddog on 04 September 2011, 05:20:59
Anyone got  a good paint scheme for Clan Sea Fox?

I'm thinking maybe using a base of GW Shadow Grey with a purple wash and either Space Wolf grey or Fortress grey for a highlight.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: VF1LAM on 04 September 2011, 05:35:58
When the Clans were new in the early '90s, I considered making a Diamond Shark sourcebook similar to the Wolf Clan Sourcebook and Jade Falcon Sourcebook.  It would have been cool if such a sourcebook existed for each of the Clans, including Wolverine.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Hawkeye Jim on 04 September 2011, 11:12:46
Fear Factory has a Burrock sourcebook in the Fan Fiction section.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 04 September 2011, 16:21:55
Anyone got  a good paint scheme for Clan Sea Fox?

I'm thinking maybe using a base of GW Shadow Grey with a purple wash and either Space Wolf grey or Fortress grey for a highlight.
There's plenty of Diamond Shark schemes on Camospecs. As far as Sea Fox, the Dark Age units were varying metallic blues if I remember correctly. But I don't think any schemes that appeared on the Wizkids pieces are considered canon.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 04 September 2011, 20:45:30
There's plenty of Diamond Shark schemes on Camospecs. As far as Sea Fox, the Dark Age units were varying metallic blues if I remember correctly. But I don't think any schemes that appeared on the Wizkids pieces are considered canon.

I've heard both are and aren't statements from the Catalyst guys.

With that being said, as attractive as the DA Sea Fox scheme was, I'd lean towards sticking to pre-existing colour schemes until we know something definitive.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 04 September 2011, 22:39:53
I hear you. I'm not jumping on painting up my Nova Cats in a white with red or gold highlights scheme at the moment.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: St.George on 09 October 2011, 05:56:08
Qwik question to all you sharks/foxes,,,,Wouldn't it have been "easyer" to have taken over the Husetic Merchants?Seeing the have allready set-up their own lil'bit of space,and they have "lots" in common with your clan?I don't know much on this Faction,or what territory they cover in the Deep P,but it "seem-do-ah-bull".    ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 09 October 2011, 13:36:47
The thing I'm personally curious to see:  I'm pretty sure WoR mentioned the Sharks setting up production facilities in the Deep Periphery.  I want to know how many they still have, and what sort of awesome swag they're making!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Rael on 09 October 2011, 18:52:17
Qwik question to all you sharks/foxes,,,,Wouldn't it have been "easyer" to have taken over the Husetic Merchants?Seeing the have allready set-up their own lil'bit of space,

Well first, easier than what?

Moving on, I'm sure that the Diamond Shark Touman, even depleted after the fighting in the Homeworlds, could defeat the Hanseatic forces. But would it be worth the trouble? The Hanseatic League looks fairly large and would tie up at least a Galaxy or two in garrison forces for little benefit in return. Most of the worlds will be backwards low-tech albatrosses, maybe some rich resources here and there but nothing the Sharks couldn't trade for anyway, and I doubt the Sharks would want to set up a power base so near to the Homeworlds now either. If I was the Shark Khan I'd stick with what I was doing and avoid the Hanseatic League, at least for the forseable future.

Quote
and they have "lots" in common with your clan?

The only thing they have in common is mercantile interests. The Diamond Sharks are still very 'Clan' despite being at the liberal end of the Clan spectrum. They're Clan first, quirks second.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: SeaRaptor on 10 October 2011, 10:53:59
Throwing my hat into the ring as another Diamond Shark player.  Been trying to get my 3062-era unit together for a number of years now -- it's only existed on paper -- and I'm finally buying, assembling, and painting.  Always good to meet fellow Sharks!

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 10 October 2011, 14:02:48
Are there any canon images of the sea fox and/or diamond shark totem animals anywhere in print (or pdf) form? (And by that I don't mean a shot of one trying to eat the other...)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Carbon Elasmobranch on 10 October 2011, 14:12:55
Pictures from MW3, I think.  There was a thread in the general forum months back about alien fauna, and they might be on Sarna, too.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 10 October 2011, 14:32:42
Duly noted, thanks.

(I'm surprised by the entry on Sarna.net (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sea_Fox_%28species%29); I expected the sea fox to be mammalian, not reptilian. Oh well, that's fictional alien species for you.)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 10 October 2011, 14:59:53
I'm rather amused by certain Clans habit of systematically releasing foreign predators into foreign ecosystems. Could make for some fun symbolism there.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Hawkeye Jim on 10 October 2011, 15:03:38
Try sicing a Ghost Bear on a Hell's Horse and see what happens.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 10 October 2011, 15:08:48
Speaking of totem animals, does the Tokasha stone lion have a pic (or stats) anywhere, or are they too new to be statted up?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 15 October 2011, 15:37:10
Speaking of totem animals, does the Tokasha stone lion have a pic (or stats) anywhere, or are they too new to be statted up?

I'm not sure if they've been statted, but I know people have been mentioning info on them (small pack hunters).  If there isn't info out now, maybe in the WoR supplemental (unless that is already out and I am just a moron).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: St.George on 22 October 2011, 03:09:41
Seeing the Hans Leag' is a Merchant Faction.How come the Shark/Fox Clan didn't slide into that area?Whats your take?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Ruger on 22 October 2011, 16:37:40
Seeing the Hans Leag' is a Merchant Faction.How come the Shark/Fox Clan didn't slide into that area?Whats your take?

While that is true, would the Sharks consider them to have enough market potential? There's more opportunity for profit in the Sphere (and its immediate Periphery) than that far outside of it...

Ruger
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: St.George on 23 October 2011, 03:36:51
Though there is a number of clans in the IS and near Periphery now(75+),the Sharks are the only ones not to have set up shop,per say(yes they have holdings).The location didn't bother me,for the HW are even further out.If they keep up their trading pace,I'd expect them to be as far as the MoC or the TC soon.
I'd think this would be a ideal place to set up trading bases,and other facilitys.Off the beatin' path,with no bullseye on it.only thing they'd have to fix is keep the scorp's happy,,,,hummmmmm.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 23 October 2011, 09:40:19
Did the Sharks get kicked too badly in Final Reckoning?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Moonsword on 23 October 2011, 10:08:38
They lost one of the Itabania facilities and took a hit to Trellshire, but that one's still intact.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 23 October 2011, 14:31:11
Though there is a number of clans in the IS and near Periphery now(75+),the Sharks are the only ones not to have set up shop,per say(yes they have holdings).The location didn't bother me,for the HW are even further out.If they keep up their trading pace,I'd expect them to be as far as the MoC or the TC soon.
I'd think this would be a ideal place to set up trading bases,and other facilitys.Off the beatin' path,with no bullseye on it.only thing they'd have to fix is keep the scorp's happy,,,,hummmmmm.

That is what their Chainelaine Isle holdings seem to be used for.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: St.George on 24 October 2011, 03:51:09
Chainelaine isle huh?Is this where they will set up shop?or will they stay mobile(becides their couple IS holdings)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Moonsword on 24 October 2011, 17:25:58
Chainelaine isle huh?Is this where they will set up shop?or will they stay mobile(becides their couple IS holdings)

A little from Column A, a little from Column B.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Hellraiser on 24 December 2011, 15:06:53
Is there a final # on the outcome of the D-Sharks fleet post Jihad/Reaving yet ?

I'm wondering how many warships they managed to keep.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 24 December 2011, 16:52:37
I imagine you'll find out in FM: 3085
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Daishi411 on 19 January 2012, 09:30:55
i have a question about DA foxes. in rending the character sena rodriguez says she's from alpha khanate, one known for being different. alpha khanate IIRC was not one of khanate's listed. has this ever been figured out?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ShadowRaven on 19 January 2012, 13:29:17
could be they are so different they left themselves off the list on purpose?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 19 January 2012, 14:40:54
It's probably nothing more than the khanates are officially named Alpha, Beta, etc. but the other names are what they're usually known by.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ShadowRaven on 19 January 2012, 21:46:19
well. If you want to go with a reasonable logical explanation.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 19 January 2012, 21:53:51
Actually, every Khanate refers to themselves as the Alpha Khanate.  This is a policy enacted by management to keep company morale high:  if ever Khanate thinks they're the best, they're going to go out there and keep doing business.  Admittedly, it has not been as popular as Thong Thursday.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ShadowRaven on 20 January 2012, 01:57:46
Ah trust the diamond foxes to end up making 'Casual Friday' seem like a black tie affair.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 20 January 2012, 02:59:56
Ah trust the diamond foxes to end up making 'Casual Friday' seem like a black tie affair.

Thongs are cheaper than pants.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 20 January 2012, 07:52:11
Yes, but do you really want to see the gas bill to head an entire warship with everyone in just thongs?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ShadowRaven on 20 January 2012, 18:16:38
I just thought they shut down the heat sinks and went for a 80's rock concert style laser light show.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 20 January 2012, 19:54:16
I just thought they shut down the heat sinks and went for a 80's rock concert style laser light show.

I know a guy who knows a guy who can get Necrosia cheap for the light show.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ShadowRaven on 21 January 2012, 00:05:34
nah. last time I did that stuff, when I came to my senses, I found myself rummaging through some dumpster looking for relics
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 21 January 2012, 02:54:04
nah. last time I did that stuff, when I came to my senses, I found myself rummaging through some dumpster looking for relics

Hey, one man's trash is another man's treasure that you can sell at a ridiculous mark-up!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 21 January 2012, 07:05:10
Or you end up with a dropship with each deck filled to the ceiling with "awesome deals waiting for the right customer."
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 21 January 2012, 12:35:15
Or you end up with a dropship with each deck filled to the ceiling with "awesome deals waiting for the right customer."

In that case, the Nova Cats need all the stuff they can get.

I just made myself sad.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ShadowRaven on 21 January 2012, 14:49:36
awwww
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Neufeld on 24 January 2012, 19:01:49
Here is my reaction on the Diamond Shark parts of FM:3085.

Good job with rebuilding. (or was those galaxies just somewhere in the deep periphery?) I am especially glad to see a Spina Galaxy back on the roster, even if I would have preferred the Rho over Lambda (and Zeta over Sigma).

It is also worth noting that the Gamma has changed the gemstone of its Skate from Emerald to Jasper.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ShadowRaven on 24 January 2012, 19:22:55
I really am hopeful for good things to come for the Diamond Foxes.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 24 January 2012, 21:35:43
I really am hopeful for good things to come for the Diamond Foxes.

ShadowRaven gets a discount at the store.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ShadowRaven on 25 January 2012, 13:18:35
great. does this mean I get the Ha Otoko  at employee price?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 25 January 2012, 15:14:13
Buy three actuators and get the fourth free!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ShadowRaven on 25 January 2012, 16:17:42
Now at the Diamond Fox traveling emporium Buy four elementals, and get the fifth one free.*

* weapons and ammunition sold seperatley, taxes not included. deal not valid in some Successor States
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 25 January 2012, 21:26:13
I'm giving you a fifth Elemental free, and that's Cutting Me Own Throat right there!  ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jimdigris on 26 January 2012, 18:07:39
I wonder how many understand the reference. :))
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 26 January 2012, 20:14:49
I wonder how many understand the reference. :))

I'm now kinda wishing my username was CMOTSharkfox.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ExtremeBloodAspUser on 14 February 2012, 14:38:29
I support anyone who sells me the good stuff. ;)
Indeed I love me my Mad Cat mk.II's and Mad Cat III's.... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 15 February 2012, 03:14:48
I'm stealing the SeaFox avatar for now.    O0

As far as important things the SeaFoxes have done (someone had asked earlier in the thread), well, they were the clan that developed the modern Iron Womb, so their role in Clan history is pretty huge for that alone.

Hope they have an interesting role in the future.  As information vendors as well as merchants of finer war machines/accessories, they fill a role as well as perpetuate it when the situation demands it.   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 27 March 2012, 21:08:47
Ho!!!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 27 March 2012, 21:18:14
Holy resurrection Batman!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 27 March 2012, 21:43:27
Been trying to get onto the boards, but I just recently got the money to actually buy some books (FM: 3085, Reunification Wars, and Wars of Reaving).  Starting my crash-course in WTF has happened!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 27 March 2012, 21:53:23
Then you're in for a wild ride!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: cold1 on 27 March 2012, 22:00:37
Been trying to get onto the boards, but I just recently got the money to actually buy some books (FM: 3085, Reunification Wars, and Wars of Reaving).  Starting my crash-course in WTF has happened!

Wars of Reaving and WTF happened in the same sentence???

Hope you have a change of underwear handy >:D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Hawkeye Jim on 27 March 2012, 22:12:47
Maybe the Foxes can design an improved iron womb.

"Guaranteed identical twins every time!" "Double up on your best bloodlines!"
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 27 March 2012, 22:15:29
Maybe the Foxes can design an improved iron womb.

"Guaranteed identical twins every time!" "Double up on your best bloodlines!"

Um, no.  Why, you ask?  Aleksandr and Malvina Hazen.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 28 March 2012, 12:17:34
Been trying to get onto the boards, but I just recently got the money to actually buy some books (FM: 3085, Reunification Wars, and Wars of Reaving).  Starting my crash-course in WTF has happened!
Prepare for some real awesome sauce from the Sharks. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 28 March 2012, 12:29:30
Um, no.  Why, you ask?  Aleksandr and Malvina Hazen.
The fact they're different sexes means they're not identical twins...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ClarkeMarek on 28 March 2012, 20:02:10
Ho!!!

Welcome back!!!! O0
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 29 March 2012, 06:32:00
The fact they're different sexes means they're not identical twins...

They're not even identical for that; they look nothing alike, a fact that was pointed out repeatedly in Flight of the Falcon
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Hawkeye Jim on 19 April 2012, 17:40:56
My word, this has fallen to the second page. Where have all the Sharkies gone.....
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 19 April 2012, 18:09:12
.... long time passing.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 19 April 2012, 18:36:24
Quick! Someone pour some bloo...er, I mean, money into the water.  That should make them surface.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: cold1 on 19 April 2012, 18:42:24
Quick! Someone pour some bloo...er, I mean, money into the water.  That should make them surface.

HA!  Funny!

Now seriously where'd you go we need to buy some more big stompy toys.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 19 April 2012, 19:04:06
Sadly, that's not even my best joke...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 01 May 2012, 19:00:34
Hello?  Anyone here?  <drops a few Kerensky's into the water> 

Well, I'm officially making a Sharks force.  I added an OpFor for my I.S. and figured I need one for the Clans too.  The Sharks won out.  Anybody wanna celebrate with me?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 01 May 2012, 19:48:11
[You will learn to love the Grendel. . . the Grendel is your friend. . . ]

Someone mentioned falling Kerensky's?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 01 May 2012, 20:23:21
In the past, I've had bad luck with the Grendel.  I'm hoping in my new Shark unit, things will work out better for it.  I've pulled a Trinary from my Horses to build a Shark Gamma Galaxy force.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Hellraiser on 02 May 2012, 22:15:14
The Grendel is a beast against IS Regulars.... against Clan Elites, well, that mobility doesn't give it quite the same edge and it can be pasted.


So aside from the Grendel, what Omni's are the Sharks known for &/or helped create ?
IIRC they did help w/ the Coyote originals, but I'm looking for more common models.

I know some of the 2nd Line units are Shark built but I'm looking for Omni's specifically.
I'm changing from a full wolf cluster down to a Trinary of the same paint scheme & using the rest to create stars of other clans.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 02 May 2012, 22:36:17
The Grendel's a nice enough 'mech. I think it's biggest weakness was being in the same weight class and the same TRO as the Shadow Cat, a mech that's a trillion times more popular and, being fair, somewhat better looking. Kinda gets overshadowed and all.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 02 May 2012, 22:53:44
The biggest disadvantage I can see is that, at that time, it wasn't the Stormcrow.  After my first game with a Stormcrow, I was asking myself why you'd want anything else.

I dunno.  The Grendels got all the hallmarks of being a solid mech.  I've just never had a good run with it. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 02 May 2012, 22:59:50
The biggest disadvantage I can see is that, at that time, it wasn't the Stormcrow.  After my first game with a Stormcrow, I was asking myself why you'd want anything else.

I dunno.  The Grendels got all the hallmarks of being a solid mech.  I've just never had a good run with it.

I've found that bringing the Ryoken into any argument is futile. It's an ender, a finality. If you ask for opinions on Clan Medium Omnis, you want to specifically exclude it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 03 May 2012, 08:38:18
The Grendel's a nice enough 'mech. I think it's biggest weakness was being in the same weight class and the same TRO as the Shadow Cat, a mech that's a trillion times more popular and, being fair, somewhat better looking. Kinda gets overshadowed and all.
I think the Grendel's biggest weakness is it's omni pods. It's got a good chassis, good speed/movement profile, and it's got some decent variants, but like the Gargoyle, there's something similar that does things better b/c of the pods. For the movement profile, most people will pick a Viper, and for the firepower it's a Stormcrow. Would most people think it's not so good if the Prime had dropped the missiles and gone with pulse lasers instead of ER versions? The A is just the reverse, swap the Pulse Laser for a pair of ER's. The place where you get into big trouble is the ones with autocannons, they are generally too heavy for a chassis this size. I like the H variant, just get an improved HLL is all.

The Grendel is a beast against IS Regulars.... against Clan Elites, well, that mobility doesn't give it quite the same edge and it can be pasted.

So aside from the Grendel, what Omni's are the Sharks known for &/or helped create ?
IIRC they did help w/ the Coyote originals, but I'm looking for more common models.

I know some of the 2nd Line units are Shark built but I'm looking for Omni's specifically.
I'm changing from a full wolf cluster down to a Trinary of the same paint scheme & using the rest to create stars of other clans.
Well, looking at TROs, there's also the Huntsman, it's only 5 tons heavier, but b/c it's slower, it has 10 more tons of podspace, and moving 5/8/5 the two can work in a big-brother, little-brother role supporting each other. That's the only other one I specifically saw to be used in significant numbers by the Sharks. Another goo place to look for ideas is the 3072 RATs in WoRS.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 03 May 2012, 09:55:20
I've found that bringing the Ryoken into any argument is futile. It's an ender, a finality. If you ask for opinions on Clan Medium Omnis, you want to specifically exclude it.
Not necessarily.  If I'm choosing between a Pariah and a Stormcrow, I'll take the Pariah all day long.  But my first encounter with Clan mediums, I had a Grendel and my friend brought a Stormcrow B.  Did I ever bring a knife to a gun fight.  It took me being unfortunate enough to close with him once and the Grendel bought the farm. 

Interestingly enough, a mech I became fond of before I decided to start up a Sharks force is the Mad Cat Mk.II.  I was surprised about how very solid this mech is.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Neufeld on 03 May 2012, 13:46:24
Not necessarily.  If I'm choosing between a Pariah and a Stormcrow, I'll take the Pariah all day long.

Even if you have to carry elementals around?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wotan on 03 May 2012, 14:11:53
So aside from the Grendel, what Omni's are the Sharks known for &/or helped create ?
IIRC they did help w/ the Coyote originals, but I'm looking for more common models.

I know some of the 2nd Line units are Shark built but I'm looking for Omni's specifically.

The same question i raised a while back. There is only the Grendel where i found confirmed production by the Sharks.
It seems they make their business with lots of great secondliners to buy all needed Omnis.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 03 May 2012, 15:53:31
Even if you have to carry elementals around?
Yeah, even if I have to carry BA.  The Pariah has more powerful configs. 

So besides the Ha Otoko, Grendel, Mad Cat Mk.II, Solitaire, and the Whammie IIc, what else do the Sharks produce?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 03 May 2012, 18:52:04
Mad Cat Mk III, several Shadow Hawk IIC variants, Rifleman IIC 8.

If you want to venture beyond the ground bound, they also make the Ammon and small numbers of the Ammon-XR
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 03 May 2012, 21:10:41
They also make (will make?) the non-Omni versions of the Black Hawk and Koshi. Plus they make a variety of versions of the Pixie IIC (at least 4 through to 8) and the Griff IIC 5

On a related note, having played with the Mad Cat Mk II Enhanced, I'm beginning to think that it might have been better off with ER PPCs or regular Large Pulses then the Large ER Pulses. But that might jsut be me.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 03 May 2012, 21:46:37
Since I couldn't leave well enough alone in the quest for an additional Diamond Shark omni ...
The Cauldron-Born shows up on the FM:3085 RAT* with a decent frequent. The Ha Otoko (including variants) is the only heavy that shows up with a higher frequency. I wouldn't be bowled over to find the Sharks as the IS source for that omni once Objectives: The Clans is released.

* Warning: RATs are not to be construed as the end all and be all of possible force compositions for a given faction. RATs are provided to enable an easily created force with the "feel" for a particular faction. RATs are not a perfect indicator of what equipment a faction may or may not produce. Contact poison control is RAT has been ingested. Contact a doctor is you have experienced a RAT for more than four hours. RATs have been linked to cancer in laboratory tests.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 03 May 2012, 22:28:24
I'd be earnestly surprised if the Sharkfoxes are making the Cauldron Born; given JFR's "sixteen Clan omnimechs" in production statement, it strikes me as unlikely that an Omni that was only built in the Homeworlds would suddenly crop up in production in the IS. I'm not ruling it out, I'm just saying that there could be other explanations, such as their coming into a good supply of them.

...with that being said, anyone had any luck in guessing those sixteen, c3081?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 03 May 2012, 23:19:39
Interesting, and off topic. I've got a reasonably confident guess on 15 after a quick look at dates on the MUL.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 04 May 2012, 00:34:48
Interesting, and off topic. I've got a reasonably confident guess on 15 after a quick look at dates on the MUL.

I'd be interested to see your guess and how it matches to mine.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Neufeld on 04 May 2012, 01:33:40
So besides the Ha Otoko, Grendel, Mad Cat Mk.II, Solitaire, and the Whammie IIc, what else do the Sharks produce?

Dasher II, it seems that everyone has repressed that this surat dropping exists *drops a piano on it*.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 04 May 2012, 06:41:29
Dasher II, it seems that everyone has repressed that this surat dropping exists *drops a piano on it*.

Yes, yes we have.  #P
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 04 May 2012, 15:18:22
I'd be interested to see your guess and how it matches to mine.
I wouldnt mind seeing the list either.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: cold1 on 04 May 2012, 18:11:10
I wouldnt mind seeing the list either.

Thirded
Now ya gots to share
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 04 May 2012, 18:28:02
Um, it's by no means official. Just a best guess and has already been tweaked once since confiring with Deadborder.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 04 May 2012, 19:57:28
Likewise, my own list has been tweaked since speaking with PW; though in my case, my list is still a mech or two over the sixteen given in FM85
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 12 August 2012, 12:49:59
Well friends, it's Shark week again.

And speaking of Sharks, where do you think the Sharks currently rank among the Spheroid Clans in terms of strength? 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dropkick on 22 August 2012, 13:21:43
I'm liking the Sharks more and more these days.  As a faction I tended not to give them much consideration but they seem to be the smart ones with an uncanny ability to reimagine themselves into something better and stronger, like the Joan Crawford of Clans.  Anyways I'm excited to see what is instore for them.

Any predictions? 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 22 August 2012, 14:12:58
The Foxes of the DA-era are starting to move into a less Gypsy-like group and more planet bound.  I'm expecting either a schism between the two groups (one based on Marik, the other space-bound).  Alternatively, the Foxes might decide that in this time of strife (shattered Republic, FWL in even more flux than before, the formation of the Clan Protectorate, etc) it is time for them to carve out a chunk of space for themselves (beyond the Clan Protectorate, that is. . . ).  This would give them more worlds to their names, and make them more than simply oddly well equipped space vagrants with lots of money/Space Gypsies.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 22 August 2012, 14:23:00
The Foxes of the DA-era are starting to move into a less Gypsy-like group and more planet bound.

There's no evidence of that. yes, they make up part of the leadership of the Clan Protectorate, but they've had planetbound enclaves and holdings for decades yet still maintain their "space gypsy" lifestyle. Their possessions in the new Free Worlds League are just more opportunities for profit, not a move to a more settled existence.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dropkick on 22 August 2012, 14:37:12
The number and location of enclaves is what I find so interesting.  Being merchants is also a great cover story and would allow for infiltration of agents for intel gathering.   

The gypsy lifestyle is also a great cover for locating hidden planets and other areas allowing them to stockpile war supplies.  The Sharks lately just scream, "we've got a bigger plart to play in the near future than what most people think."
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 22 August 2012, 21:45:35
There's no evidence of that. yes, they make up part of the leadership of the Clan Protectorate, but they've had planetbound enclaves and holdings for decades yet still maintain their "space gypsy" lifestyle. Their possessions in the new Free Worlds League are just more opportunities for profit, not a move to a more settled existence.

They are actively "Protecting" a number of ver stationary worlds as part of a ruling polity.  While they may be spacebound, this is a HUGE step towards becoming a more stationary power.  At least one Khanate (or an Aimag, anyway) is now tied to a very specific area of space instead of being "free."  How is this not a move away from Gypsyism?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Neufeld on 23 August 2012, 05:22:00
I just hope that they become more of a faction and less of a plot device.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 23 August 2012, 12:35:14
Doubtful.  I'm considering rehoming my Sharks because of how boring they've gotten and practically nothing has been done with them.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 23 August 2012, 12:43:19
They are actively "Protecting" a number of ver stationary worlds as part of a ruling polity.  While they may be spacebound, this is a HUGE step towards becoming a more stationary power.  At least one Khanate (or an Aimag, anyway) is now tied to a very specific area of space instead of being "free."  How is this not a move away from Gypsyism?

I don't think it's any more "stationary" than them having Twycross, Itabaiana, Trondheim and Tukayyid. The only difference is that the Clan Protectorate worlds are closer together.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 23 August 2012, 13:40:36
Which ties them to a rather small area of space.  Having far flung worlds actually SUPPIRTS a wandering lifestyle, while having a close cluster of worlds they have to protect means they cannot wander.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Ratwedge on 24 August 2012, 02:30:08
Which ties them to a rather small area of space.  Having far flung worlds actually SUPPIRTS a wandering lifestyle, while having a close cluster of worlds they have to protect means they cannot wander.


It only ties a small portion of the Sea Foxes down and at worse they can flick some merch off to the Spirit Cats and let them do the heavy lifting. If anything the Clan Protectorate is a sure fire way to circumvent a lot of red-tape when it comes to trading in the FWL as well as have a man or two on the inside working the system. ovKhan Kalasa looks like he is investing political capital (and capital weapons) into the FWL in an attempt for it to pay off in the long run for the Foxes.

If anything I wouldn't be surprised if the Clan Protectorate grows simply because of economic potential instead of military.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 24 August 2012, 16:28:26
You know I really want to love the Diamond Sharks (I already like them, but I mean truly make this my top fav Clan) but I have one major complaint. I love the McKenna class warship and they don't have one.

I mean seriously, the Diamond Sharks don't have the class of warship that features a shark-like fin? I must say, major missed opportunity   :o

I can picture it in my head, its so beautiful <sniff> that McKenna in Diamond Shark fleet colors, sailing across the stars....we'd name it the Nautilus (Karen Nagasawa loved literature, I'm sure she read 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea)....it would be the coolest warship ever!   [drool]
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 24 August 2012, 18:24:27
Potemkinns make for better tranports  O0
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 24 August 2012, 21:47:25
Here's a question. In the Diamond Sharks, if a bloodnamed warrior retires from the warrior caste to some other caste, do they still get to actively sit on the Clan Council, can they still nominate candidates for Trials of Bloodright, and can they serve as the Bloodname House Leader?

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 24 August 2012, 23:30:33
They are bloodnamed, so yes.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dropkick on 25 August 2012, 16:02:39
If anything I wouldn't be surprised if the Clan Protectorate grows simply because of economic potential instead of military.

That's what I find so intriguing about the Sharks.  Their approach is so different as compared to the other clans and IMHO puts them in a stronger position.  I may be way off the mark but it just seems as if the Sharks have more potential than the other clans because of their, the other clans,  focus on achieving ilClan by overt military conquest. 

While the Sharks ultimate goal may still be ilClan their grand strategy seems to be saving them from constantly bashing themselves to bits on the IS or another clan.   By focusing on trade the sharks can save the majority of the military assests and build a strong industrial base becoming an economic powerhouse. Not only that but a merchant fleet is the perfect cover for other clandestine affairs.  And since they're clan they can justify any arms as necessary for guarding their merchant fleet.   With a large fleet and a desire to "explore" other markets the sharks may end up finding planets that may make great depots for material and manpower.  So on and so forth.  It's all probably just wishful thinking but it's been my pet theory for a couple of weeks and makes me wanna build up some shark forces.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 29 August 2012, 01:03:48
I wish we knew more about the founder of the Clarke bloodname. When you read FM: WC, that name pops up in several places. Its clear that several Diamond Shark Khans have been Clarkes, and several personalities worth mentioning in the Clan as of FM: WC are Clarkes. Even if not founder information, just more information on its traits, what its known/famous for would be nice.

That bloodname intrigues me, but we just don't have much to go on. When I pick a bloodname/bloodline to go with a Clan trueborn character, I like to know something about its history.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 30 August 2012, 16:52:16
Here's a question, offshoot of the merchant bloodnamed thing.

If bloodnamed that transfer to another caste are allowed to remain on the Clan Council, doesn't that conflict a little with the lower caste leaders? For example, Merchant and former warrior Thomas Clarke, who sits on the Clan Council and has a vote, maybe even leads his bloodname house. Doesn't he wield considerable voting power and influence to push his own agenda, potentially at odds with the Merchant Factor?

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 30 August 2012, 17:05:12
Bloodnamed warriors who retire to a lower caste do not remain on the Clan Council, which is just for Bloodnamed warriors. If you're not a warrior any longer, you don't get to sit on the Council.

Though I'm unsure how that is handled if the retiree chooses to remain on active reserve status as opposed to inactive status as mention in FM:Wardens, p84.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 31 August 2012, 14:58:59
That would be an interesting roleplaying vantage point. A bloodnamed lower castemen on active reserve status, who gets to sit on the Clan Council and partake in blodname house politics. Take that and couple it with lower caste agenda (aka merchant deal-making). Not unlike how a Cloud Cobra can also be part of a Cloister or even an EcKhan, which provides some additional layers of association.

In my mind, it would also further explain the Clan's reputation as "merchant" warriors. Its not just that their merchant caste is strong, but that the merchants have a strong voice in the Clan Council itself.

But yeah that would muddy the waters a bit. The leaders of the lower castes would have to contend with those individuals, potentially as political allies or enemies.

Mostly just thinking out loud here....
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 27 September 2012, 00:12:40
Thought Angus kept his bloodname even before he came back to warrior status?

Anyway, Invasion era question . . . we know Barbara Sennet supported the merchant castes making in roads to the Inner Sphere while Ian Hawker had to keep spitting out green feathers in his approach to getting IS territory.

My question is . . . would Sennet have the political power to set up a Shark trading enclave in the Wolf OZ, say somewhere like Kobe?  Or would Hawker try to block it due to keeping his Falcon buddies happy?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 27 September 2012, 06:38:15
Thought Angus kept his bloodname even before he came back to warrior status?

Anyway, Invasion era question . . . we know Barbara Sennet supported the merchant castes making in roads to the Inner Sphere while Ian Hawker had to keep spitting out green feathers in his approach to getting IS territory.

My question is . . . would Sennet have the political power to set up a Shark trading enclave in the Wolf OZ, say somewhere like Kobe?  Or would Hawker try to block it due to keeping his Falcon buddies happy?

Probably the latter. Hawker was so in bed with the Falcons that he wouldn't want to do anything to upset the apple cart, and anything involving the Wolves would be high on the 'do not want' list .

Also, Kobe wasn't in the Wolf OZ.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 27 September 2012, 13:45:01
Sorry, was looking at the OZ map on Sarna since I could not find my Objective Raids.  It was really hard to read but I thought it said that name for a world.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 06 December 2012, 12:54:55
I know "hidden armies" has been beaten to death in BT (though somewhat justified by the technology of the universe). With that said, am I the only one who believes that the Sea Foxes have some cluster of worlds in the periphery somewhere where they house most of their population and production?

The wandering part of the clan handles marketing, distribution, and sales, along with some basic production. Meanwhile, their core infrastructure is safe and sound, off-camera somewhere far rimward of the Inner Sphere. Eventually, the Sea Foxes turn into a kind of ComStar: an institution that's omnipresent, essential to the Inner Sphere's daily life, but taken largely for granted.

On another note, I haven't read WoR yet, but my understanding is that it's told largely from the Shark POV. There's plenty of room in there for them to conveniently omit mass relocation of their civilian castes to greener pastures.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Southern Coyote on 06 December 2012, 13:54:35
I'd be willing to bet the Sharks/Foxes have a few planets that aren't on the grid (or any important grids) tucked away.  Makes good business sense. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GhostBear on 06 December 2012, 14:15:52
I know "hidden armies" has been beaten to death in BT (though somewhat justified by the technology of the universe). With that said, am I the only one who believes that the Sea Foxes have some cluster of worlds in the periphery somewhere where they house most of their population and production?

The wandering part of the clan handles marketing, distribution, and sales, along with some basic production. Meanwhile, their core infrastructure is safe and sound, off-camera somewhere far rimward of the Inner Sphere. Eventually, the Sea Foxes turn into a kind of ComStar: an institution that's omnipresent, essential to the Inner Sphere's daily life, but taken largely for granted.

On another note, I haven't read WoR yet, but my understanding is that it's told largely from the Shark POV. There's plenty of room in there for them to conveniently omit mass relocation of their civilian castes to greener pastures.

Chainlaine Islands. (See Interstellar Expeditions.)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 06 December 2012, 16:32:46
Chainlaine Islands. (See Interstellar Expeditions.)

Good point.

I'm actually thinking something further out antispinward. We know a great deal about the coreward Periphery, and why not? Kerensky's exodus went thataway, and the Explorer Corps focused their search for the clan homeworlds in that direction. I mostly love what's been revealed about what's out there, but from a planning perspective, all those periphery kingdoms are known entities that are right along the path between the homeworlds and the IS. Which puts them in harm's way.

If I were khan (spoken with suitably slurred speech after a few too many Green Goliaths), I'd have run a survey of the Periphery rimward and antispinward, maybe 600 LY out or so? Taken my time, scouted out some prime real estate.  Kerensky's challenge was that his ships were packed to the gills with near-mutinous settlers. With 20-20 hindsight, I could say I'd started the fishing expeditions with the beginning of Operation Revival, when the other clans were distracted, but certainly the writing was on the walls after the Refusal War and when the Ghost Bears migrated. Five good planets in good proximity to one another, and science stations dropped off to plan everything long in advance. Even one good world would be enough to hold the 70 million Diamond Sharks of WoK.

With most of my infrastructure off-camera and unknown to the mainstream clans, I'm not a target. The ArcShips and CargoShips hold lots of people, factory equipment, yards perhaps... but enough to support a major faction? Not with the construction rules I've seen. The trade worlds might do it. The Chainlaine Islands are another possibility, or simply a tripwire and good side venture. Subversion (rather than open conquest) of the Hanseatic League seems like a natural for the Diamond Shark portfolio... and openly, loudly banishing the Clans out helps hide their presence from prying eyes in the Home Clans' Watch.

I've been re-watching B5 lately, and that got me thinking about BattleTech again. It's hard not to watch Mr. Morden and not think of the Diamond Sharks.

There are 54 star systems within 60 LY of Terra. But that's out of well over 1400 star systems, mostly red dwarfs of little or no value. Not to mention vast reaches of empty space that's jump-accessible. So you could use those to plot virtually untraceable jumps in and out, and even hide spaceborne, space station-based colonies in the Inner Sphere with little or no chance of detection. A habitable world in the far periphery gives you a refuge that's hard to capture. For an ostensibly nomadic clan like the Shark/Foxes, who is going to notice if a ship drops out of circulation for a few years? With tens of thousands aboard and years between visits to a planet, no one will notice if the crew is rotating in and out.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 06 December 2012, 21:12:44
I have to repeat Ghost Bear; check out Interstellar Expeditions.  There are large scale surveys and maps of all four areas of the Periphery.   Lots of info, but still leaves a lot to the imagination.

Oh...   And the Chainelane Isles are covered generously.  You'll find answers.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 06 December 2012, 21:55:47
I have to repeat Ghost Bear; check out Interstellar Expeditions.  There are large scale surveys and maps of all four areas of the Periphery.   Lots of info, but still leaves a lot to the imagination.

Oh...   And the Chainelane Isles are covered generously.  You'll find answers.

Already doing it-- I trust my GhostBear. ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 12 January 2013, 00:27:57
Time is rolling forward in the universe.   Wars and rumors of wars abound in our new home.  And speaking to us with a voice all its own, the palpable silence from the Home Worlds, left long behind on the stellar road.  So be it - all bills have been paid in full with regard to them.   

Soon we take back our name, the Sea Foxes, and cast aside the identity of the Diamond Shark, honored though it has been.  No longer do we march through time among twenty, seventeen, ten Clans of Kerensky, but free are we to seek that which we would attain to.  Our Clan's destiny is truly that: ours, alone.

Profits ride high like tides surging in a windswept bay, gleaming and churning under the light of three moons.  Our allies and enemies alike wonder at the secrets that we know.  Our secrets, many and dear they are, keep them all transfixed.  Never do they see our true designs; at least not until it is too late.

Indeed, as the silence on this thread shows, busy we all are in adapting to our new home.  This journey, of conquest and of commerce, has led us to our destiny.  We are the link between the (soon to be) silent worlds, bringing with us one of humankind's most cherished of ancient traditions, that of trade between communities.  And in that role will we come to dominance over all.


One question: Have stats been published for the ArkShips, or for the structure of the Aimags and Khanates?  Or will that be taken care of in future publication?



Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on 12 January 2013, 00:57:13
That was a really beautiful post rebs. ^_^
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 12 January 2013, 01:20:28
That was a really beautiful post rebs. ^_^

I used to write a fairly successful poetry blog, did that for several years.  I learned a lot from that, poetry, prose and human relations on the internet.  For good and for ill.

Just wondering about pre-Dark Age Shark Fox business, hoping for a good answer from others in the community.   :) 

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 12 January 2013, 03:55:41

Why did the Sharks get censured at the end of the century and change their names back to Foxes? Just using the reason of selling Clantech to non-Clan entities doesn't stick, since they've been doing that since after the Great Refusal.


It's an internal matter.  They hold a vote and change their name back to Sea Foxes in 3100.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 12 January 2013, 04:09:20
It's an internal matter.  They hold a vote and change their name back to Sea Foxes in 3100.

Actually...from the old INN stuff and Faction info from the stuff WK released, the Diamond Sharks changed their name
AFTER being censured by the "Grand Council" for selling the Mad Cat mk III to the IS.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Rainbow 6 on 12 January 2013, 04:29:03
Cracking post Rebs.

We've not seen anything on the Foxes structure or Arc-Ships as yet, i'd assume we'll get them next year when they flesh out the Dark Age Era.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 12 January 2013, 04:34:28
Cracking post Rebs.

We've not seen anything on the Foxes structure or Arc-Ships as yet, i'd assume we'll get them next year when they flesh out the Dark Age Era.

Thanks. 

I was pretty sure that was the case but you never know, CGL has been producing a lot of stuff as of late, so I thought I'd ask.  :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 12 January 2013, 09:04:51
Yep, the most there's been is a mention of the ArcShips in the Diamond Shark section of Interstellar Expeditions.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 12 January 2013, 10:54:16
Actually...from the old INN stuff and Faction info from the stuff WK released, the Diamond Sharks changed their name
AFTER being censured by the "Grand Council" for selling the Mad Cat mk III to the IS.

Bingo. Since the Mad Cat III is par for the course with the Mk II, and there was no mention of censure in TRO3090, it could be another case of the IS not aware of what's really going on among the Clans to cause the name change.

Hellions don't think so. Other Clans don't necessarily agree. Kind of depends on the situation - sometimes they put up with it, sometimes they don't. I think that's why there's a lot of tanks, artillery and TAG in the Hellion touman (see: Flurry clusters, Icestorm mech, some Mist Lynx variants).

Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Moonsword on 12 January 2013, 11:33:59
EDIT: Alright, let's just put this where it belongs directly...

Bingo. Since the Mad Cat III is par for the course with the Mk II, and there was no mention of censure in TRO3090, it could be another case of the IS not aware of what's really going on among the Clans to cause the name change.

You might want to reread the Deployment section.  TRO Prototypes makes it clear that the Republic, at least, is well aware that the others Clans aren't happy about it.  They're completely shunning the design and the Falcon Khan is pretty thoroughly cheesed.

Quote from: TRO Prototypes, page 148
Khan Samantha Clees of the Jade Falcons has claimed, “… selling cutting edge Clan technology to the barbarians of the Inner Sphere is an outrage against everything Nicholas Kerensky stood for and taught us.”

I suspect that censure simply hasn't happened yet.  Since the Mad Cat Mk. III began production in 3086 and the name change occurs in 3100 - after the Sharks reorganize in 3091 and 3094, and the "Great Reavings" begin in 3097 - it's also not the only issue going into it.  At this point, we simply don't know how much the Inner Sphere knows about the situation because our only sources are either too early or are sketchy news reports from a few decades later.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 12 January 2013, 12:06:45
Yep, the most there's been is a mention of the ArcShips in the Diamond Shark section of Interstellar Expeditions.

I noticed that.  IE 3 is setting the story of Shark/Fox change in motion, though it's still early on...   I'm pretty baddly impatient. 

Also, I love the stuff at the INN/WK sites, the Human Sphere and all.  When I was starting to get back into BT after a long hiatus, I googled "The Periphery" and found Touring the Stars.  I started reading Herb's articles and I knew I had to come back.  BT was not only alive, it was running off in a wild direction and I needed to hurry and catch up  ;D

But as I've learned, a great deal of information from that site has already been overwritten or otherwise changed as it's officially released.  I know a lot of it has been used, but a lot of other ideas were apparently "tried on"  and deemed not to fit.  It's all good, simply adds to my impatience.   :))
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 12 January 2013, 15:52:03
I think patience will be rewarded. I'd rather it be done right than done fast.

The Diamond Sharks have begun what was called "the Labov Project" in WoR, something that ties up their naval yards for the foreseeable future.

The biggest challenge with the Sharks is balancing their mercantile nature with their martial nature. Early attempts at writing them went way over on the merchant side. The latest supplements, like Wars of Reaving and ISP3, manage to get it just right IMO. There was a line from Trace in a FotW article where he said, "Never underestimate the ability of a Diamond Shark to spot an opportunity to buy your old lead minis, sell you new pewter ones, then melt down the lead ones and 'give' them back to you, nine millimetres at a time, at ~1200 fps." To me that's the Sharks at their best.

We're about to see a major change in Diamond Shark culture and iconography. Not only do we want the Sea Foxes that come out of this to be cool and believable, but we want the transition itself to be cool and believable. Re-read the original Field Manual entries on Brett Andrews and Hannibal Banacek. There's a clear line between where they were and where they went.

Think about the Wars of Reaving. Go through that plot, where they were and where they went. That supplement could very easily have been a train wreck. Sometimes it's easy to see when someone dances across the tightrope, juggling chainsaws and flamethrowers, that they're immensely talented. And sometimes, an expert does something so well that you don't realize how hard it was. That's Wars of Reaving, IMO. I'm dead-certain that there are still gems hidden in there that we'll only see in retrospect when future supplements come out. And so I'm happy if it takes a while for them to get a Ben Rome-quality treatment. (Not a slight on other authors, incidentally, just calling out one major success in the line.)

Finally, here's a gem I noticed. We all have our cool Sea Fox symbols... notice something odd? The original Sea Fox symbol was over a red tri-arrow, standing for Strenth, Skill, Nobility. The Diamond Shark logo kept that tri-arrow. So the new symbol goes back to the Sea Fox, but loses the arrow.

Is this simply a matter of it being visually pleasant? Or is this a statement of "no more Mr. Nice Foxes" after the censure? (And in fairness, the Foxes were already censured for selling clantech.)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 12 January 2013, 16:18:00
I think patience will be rewarded. I'd rather it be done right than done fast.

The Diamond Sharks have begun what was called "the Labov Project" in WoR, something that ties up their naval yards for the foreseeable future.

The biggest challenge with the Sharks is balancing their mercantile nature with their martial nature. Early attempts at writing them went way over on the merchant side. The latest supplements, like Wars of Reaving and ISP3, manage to get it just right IMO. There was a line from Trace in a FotW article where he said, "Never underestimate the ability of a Diamond Shark to spot an opportunity to buy your old lead minis, sell you new pewter ones, then melt down the lead ones and 'give' them back to you, nine millimetres at a time, at ~1200 fps." To me that's the Sharks at their best.

We're about to see a major change in Diamond Shark culture and iconography. Not only do we want the Sea Foxes that come out of this to be cool and believable, but we want the transition itself to be cool and believable. Re-read the original Field Manual entries on Brett Andrews and Hannibal Banacek. There's a clear line between where they were and where they went.

Think about the Wars of Reaving. Go through that plot, where they were and where they went. That supplement could very easily have been a train wreck. Sometimes it's easy to see when someone dances across the tightrope, juggling chainsaws and flamethrowers, that they're immensely talented. And sometimes, an expert does something so well that you don't realize how hard it was. That's Wars of Reaving, IMO. I'm dead-certain that there are still gems hidden in there that we'll only see in retrospect when future supplements come out. And so I'm happy if it takes a while for them to get a Ben Rome-quality treatment. (Not a slight on other authors, incidentally, just calling out one major success in the line.)

Finally, here's a gem I noticed. We all have our cool Sea Fox symbols... notice something odd? The original Sea Fox symbol was over a red tri-arrow, standing for Strenth, Skill, Nobility. The Diamond Shark logo kept that tri-arrow. So the new symbol goes back to the Sea Fox, but loses the arrow.

Is this simply a matter of it being visually pleasant? Or is this a statement of "no more Mr. Nice Foxes" after the censure? (And in fairness, the Foxes were already censured for selling clantech.)

Hey Wellspring. 

My impatience is only inspired by the superb quality of works like Wars of Reaving and Operation Klondike

You spoke of hidden gems...   I spot something new nearly every time I flip the pages or WoR for more than a few minutes, so I can only agree.  It is a true work of art like that, if any sourcebook ever was considered to be such.  And several of them are, over the years.  I said it somewhere else recently, but have no problem saying it again: after reading those two sources in particular, I was very glad to have come back to this game universe.

And I did notice the lack of a Tri-Arrow.  Glad you brought that up.  Our business partners and foes alike should take those concepts as given when dealing with us.  They really shouldn't need a reminder.  ;)



Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 12 January 2013, 16:23:03
My impatience is only inspired by the superb quality of works like Wars of Reaving and Operation Klondike

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm a raging hypocrite who wants to see stuff like that as well.

But the other thing is that I like playing games in the "now" of a setting. So Catalyst taking its time and doing it right also has the happy side effect of getting me to think about playing in the post-Jihad era. I'd actually quit playing ten years ago for many reasons, but in part because the Jihad and Dark Ages and stuff didn't interest me.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 12 January 2013, 16:32:12
Oh don't get me wrong. I'm a raging hypocrite who wants to see stuff like that as well.

But the other thing is that I like playing games in the "now" of a setting. So Catalyst taking its time and doing it right also has the happy side effect of getting me to think about playing in the post-Jihad era. I'd actually quit playing ten years ago for many reasons, but in part because the Jihad and Dark Ages and stuff didn't interest me.

Same.  I kind of wandered to other interests after Twilight of the Clans and the Great Refusal.  Such is life. 

Now, all of this great new stuff has actually lit a fire of interest in the Jihad and DA under me.  Good show.  :)   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 13 January 2013, 03:52:15
EDIT: Alright, let's just put this where it belongs directly...

You might want to reread the Deployment section.  TRO Prototypes makes it clear that the Republic, at least, is well aware that the others Clans aren't happy about it.  They're completely shunning the design and the Falcon Khan is pretty thoroughly cheesed.

I suspect that censure simply hasn't happened yet.  Since the Mad Cat Mk. III began production in 3086 and the name change occurs in 3100 - after the Sharks reorganize in 3091 and 3094, and the "Great Reavings" begin in 3097 - it's also not the only issue going into it.  At this point, we simply don't know how much the Inner Sphere knows about the situation because our only sources are either too early or are sketchy news reports from a few decades later.

Shunning is a form of censure? Agreed with the other issues, a lot's going to happen in the 90s.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 13 January 2013, 04:25:12
Shunning is a form of censure? Agreed with the other issues, a lot's going to happen in the 90s.

 oh gawd, battletech was all ready the 80s in the future, Can we really survive the diamond sharks selling lime green parachute pants?  ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 13 January 2013, 04:49:39
I still maintain the Sea Fox changed their name cause the plushies sold better.  ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Moonsword on 13 January 2013, 08:03:59
Shunning is a form of censure? Agreed with the other issues, a lot's going to happen in the 90s.

As I said in the post you quoted, "I suspect that censure simply hasn't happened yet."  It's building.  And the way the Republic, at least, is aware of the issue is probably shaping their perception of whatever's going on in the Clans.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 14 January 2013, 02:36:27
It is building alright. I think it's ComStar who's more aware of it too, since TRO:P was written by a ComStar Precentor.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 14 January 2013, 19:58:47
As I said in the post you quoted, "I suspect that censure simply hasn't happened yet."  It's building.  And the way the Republic, at least, is aware of the issue is probably shaping their perception of whatever's going on in the Clans.

I think Objectives: Clans reveals a little tidbit about the state of their sibkos that might shed some light on what's to come for them.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 15 January 2013, 14:18:22
OK to be a bit more specific, the report that a juvenile Shark Warrior hasn't been seen in years. What's up with that?

As far as I can tell, either there was an interruption in the breeding program, or it got halted entirely, or they're elsewhere. Except that if it was related to the breeding program, then you'd still be seeing young freeborn warriors. So what's going on here?

By "halted", I mean that the Sharks somehow lost all their genetic legacies. They had a massive exodus fleet destroyed at Salonika* and their homeworld was savaged in WoR-- both of which surely had copies of their legacies. But their only copies? I find it hard to believe that with all their advanced preparation for a relocation, that somehow they'd waited that long to move a copy of their genetic legacies. The Sharks were lingering in the homeworlds almost to the very end. Plus, they had legacies to share with the other Council of Six clans later.

Plus, the new warriors of 3085 were decanted in 3065-- a time when the Sharks were happy as a clam. Where the sibko cadets killed in the WoR? Maybe the program is fine post-WoR but the new sibkos simply aren't old enough to have graduated yet. Except that again, if that were true we'd be seeing freeborn warriors.

Their scientist caste may have polluted their legacies severely. In which case, the Sharks don't want to advertise, but have quietly spent the past few years cleaning them up. The Home Clans had to do this, too, and it took them years as well. This could explain an interruption-- except that again, if that were true where are the freeborn juveniles?

One possible explanation is this. Maybe they're elsewhere. If the SharkFoxes have another periphery base, not just their coreward post in the Isles, then they might well be raising their sibkos there and be keeping the kids away from the IS, where they could be taken as bondsmen and reveal the secret colony before its defenses are established. That would be suicide for another clan; they rely on new warriors to replace their constant combat losses, but the Sharks are different. If there's one thing the Sharks have never lacked for, it's troops. Their retirement system means that at any time they can have two to three times their active duty contingent available as reservists-- maybe a little rusty, maybe not in the prime of life, but certainly seasoned and ready. So they don't need the steady stream of cadets to keep their touman filled.

(* I find the Battle of Salonika very suspicious. The Shark exodus fleet lingered there for weeks, even after being spotted and attacked. All they needed to do was to jump to another hiding place, leaving a warship or two to sheep-dog the stragglers. Why stick around? And then when they were attacked, the JumpShips just sat there, despite having had enough time to re-charge ten times over. The situation makes no sense whatsoever. With Vinton, the Sharks were lying low there for years, but you could at least imagine they were busy evacuating and/or waiting for pickup. With Salonika, it's like they were inviting a massacre. And somehow I doubt that Ben suddenly took leave of his senses when he wrote that. Either I'm misreading the passage or the passage is misleading me-- my feeling is that Semi Kalasa's account is... delicately phrased.)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GhostBear on 15 January 2013, 14:59:07
my feeling is that Semi Kalasa's account is... delicately phrased.)

Oh look, another hidden gem revealed.  O0
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 15 January 2013, 22:17:20
Nice...   So Semi Kalasa wrote her report not only to inform, but to front strength to the other Clans in the most efficient way possible...  with a bit of bluffing, obfuscation and exaggeration.   

I guess the Shark Foxes take to the road because that is all they have left.   :-\   

But is it possible that the Shark Foxes actually fared the worst of the IS Clans?   During the Reavings, to be exact.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jellico on 15 January 2013, 22:26:06
But is it possible that the Shark Foxes actually fared the worst of the IS Clans?   During the Reavings, to be exact.
The Nova Cats, Horses, Wolves and Ravens would argue that with you. The Sharks are visibly better than those four.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 15 January 2013, 22:42:55
I'm sure they would argue.  None of them are known for agreement.   :) 

Guess I was just reliving the horror of the Sharks being kicked in the crotch repeatedly.  Boom.  Right in the convoys. 

But as you say, 'twas plenty of hardship for everyone
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 16 January 2013, 16:11:59
Nice...   So Semi Kalasa wrote her report not only to inform, but to front strength to the other Clans in the most efficient way possible...  with a bit of bluffing, obfuscation and exaggeration.   

I guess the Shark Foxes take to the road because that is all they have left.   :-\   

But is it possible that the Shark Foxes actually fared the worst of the IS Clans?   During the Reavings, to be exact.

That's my question. Are the Sharks over-stating their losses or understating them?

First, let's review what we were told:

Wars of Reaving, pg102. The Burrock fleet, raiding the coreward deep periphery, arrives at Salonika to find a massive Diamond Shark refugee fleet. The fleet had been sitting there waiting for stragglers. There's a naval engagement, and the Burrocks are defeated; some are captured, but two of their JumpShips escape. The Sharks resume their... just sitting there... for two more weeks. They send a report by HPG which never reaches Vinton. Eventually another, massive Burrock fleet shows up. Although heavily outgunned, the Diamond Shark naval vessels attack rather than jumping out, and the civilians continue to just sit there. Eventually, the Sharks are overwhelmed and again electing not to jump out, the civilian vessels allow themselves to be boarded and sent to Tanis. Some later escape to tell their tale of woe.

Later, on pg113, we see a reference by the Burrocks in the Tanis system to their Diamond Shark isorla (the mobile naval facilities and battle equipment). Around this time, although the "final mass convoy" had already left, seven million Diamond Sharks remained on-world, including Loremaster Kalasa and Merchant Factor Lorenzo. A massive battle with the Coyotes was fought; although it's described in detail, the account is vague about the outcome, implying that most civilians were killed or deported. A strike force launches to battle the Coyoytes; it does heavy damage and never returns to Vinton. Were they all destroyed, as she implies? Or did they escape to somewhere else? The story picks up a year later with the rescue of a few survivors by the Blood Spirits and Lorenzo's legendary voyage. Six months later, the Cobras mount their failed assault on the Tanis system. A year after that, the Adders arrived and laid waste to the system, stopping only to execute the surrendering Burrocks and pillage Tanis of war materiel.

Comments:

The Diamond Sharks may be overstating their losses, leaving the reader to believe they suffered worse than they did. This might be to conceal the fact that they've established a much larger off-camera settlement than they're willing to admit. I've given this theory before, so I won't dwell on it. Except to say that Semi Kalasa said, rather poetically, that most of their Touman had already been moved "towards" the richer waters of the IS. Not to the Inner Sphere, but towards it. We hear a lot about the major convoy that was interdicted, but what about the others before that? The Sharks had started relocating years before. Assume everyone died at Vinton, and you still have sixty million Diamond Shark civilians unaccounted for.

If the Sharks have a major settlement packed with civilians and industry, the last thing they want are resource-starved IS clans marching in to stage Trials of Possession for it. And if the Sharks made a devil's bargain with the Society to buy time to complete their evacuation, then it follows that they'd need a cover story to explain Shark assets in Burrock hands. I like the Sharks so I hope they didn't pay the Burrocks off, but it's certainly possible. Either possibility explains their weird behavior at Salonika. It also fits with something else we knew already: the Diamond Sharks are the only clan to have systematically understated the size of their Touman pre-Jihad.

They might also be understating their losses, to hide their weakness. If the bulk of their civilians were killed, and/or their industrial capacity destroyed, and/or their genetic legacies tampered with or lost... then it stands to reason that they'd want to conceal this from their rivals. The main problem with this explanation is that it doesn't explain Salonika. And Objectives: Clans paints a picture of a clan with a pretty good industrial base.

Note: Real life "Salonika" is better known as Thessaloniki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki). The place has a marvelously rich history. So rich, in fact, that if we knew for a fact that Ben intended the name as a reference to unrevealed gems about the battle then it could still mean just about anything.

The Nova Cats, Horses, Wolves and Ravens would argue that with you. The Sharks are visibly better than those four.

Totally agree here. The Sharks had plenty of time to prepare for a migration, unlike these clans which had to improvise. They also had a massive merchant fleet available to conduct a migration.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Vanadius on 16 January 2013, 16:18:57
If the Sharks have a secret homeworld off camera with ~60 million population, yet the merchant still maintain contact with both the homeworld AND the IS,  it'd be really hard to keep that secret.

Eventually someone will get drunk at a business meeting and reference their youth on the homeworld, for instance.  Someone would talk.  Someone ALWAYS talks.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 16 January 2013, 16:34:29
There have been hints of hidden Shark Fox assets since FM: Warden Clans and Invading Clans sourcebooks.  The planets and holdings we are shown cover for the ones that are not known.   

I don't know if Wellspring was implying that all 60 million civs made it to a hidden base, but enough of them could have to start up industry, and gear toward building that base up to acceptable levels of technological sophistication. 

Maybe they had a plan for longer than anyone else knows.

But it is correct, a secret that large can't be kept forever...    And that's when it appears in sourcebooks  O0
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 16 January 2013, 17:56:53
I don't know if Wellspring was implying that all 60 million civs made it to a hidden base, but enough of them could have to start up industry, and gear toward building that base up to acceptable levels of technological sophistication. 

I wasn't. The population listed in Warriors of Kerensky is 66 million. About six of them were on Vinton for the Coyote invasion. Many, no doubt, were lost to Trials of Possession while the Sharks were leaving. Many more probably are on the known bases in the Periphery and the trade worlds. Sixty million could fit comfortably on a single planet if the infrastructure was set up.

My point is that you could easily siphon a few hundred thousand off to a hidden colony or three and no one would be the wiser considering all the shuffling and massacres of the Jihad era.

But it is correct, a secret that large can't be kept forever...    And that's when it appears in sourcebooks  O0

Yeah, obviously. The problem with being off-camera invincible is that you're setting yourself up for a crotch kick. Either you deliver it (the Society, WoB, the Clans pre-Revival, etc) or you have it delivered unto you (the Society, WoB, the Clans post-Revival).

I'm just saying that I've always suspected that they have considerable hidden resources. WoR, ISP3, and especially Objectives: Clans have hardened my suspicion. Especially when they started marching around transmitting "What do you require?". I mean, at that point why not just hire Ed Wasser to ask people what they want and be done with it?  ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 16 January 2013, 18:55:49
Yeah, up there in the quote above I was in agreement about the 60 mil civs on Vinton.   I suggested some could have made it out. :)  I got your point.

Also, hidden assets (in the form of Galaxies unaccounted for, or hidden production sites) have been hinted at in sources since the turn of the millennium.   Again, agreed.   

There are a few obvious things here.  One is that in BattleTech, everyone continually sets up to be kicked in the crotch, or they are not in it, or won't be in it long.  Another is that there is more to the Shark Foxes than they let on in reports, and Spheroid Intel can only tell us so much.   



Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: kuttsinister7 on 16 January 2013, 22:08:49
I am back in the water...did I miss the memo?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 January 2013, 00:36:52
What mech is that behind Barbara Sennet in ER3052?  I want to say its a medium, Grendel?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 17 January 2013, 01:35:50
I think the Sharks are really hurting. If they had a large or growing population base after the WoR, they would not have converted to a nomadic lifestyle of basing them on roaming trade fleets.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 17 January 2013, 02:06:15
I think the Sharks are really hurting. If they had a large or growing population base after the WoR, they would not have converted to a nomadic lifestyle of basing them on roaming trade fleets.

It's a lot easier to conduct business across the entire Inner Sphere if you aren't tied down to one or a couple of locations but instead have everything you need right there with you. The roaming trade fleets aren't necessarily a sign of hurting as much as they are of trying to do business in the most efficient way possible.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 January 2013, 09:48:58
Then I have to ask a question.  Where have all the children gone?  Not just the trueborns but even the freeborns as well as nowhere to be seen.  I really think there's a hell of a lot more going on in the Chanelaines than anyone is admitting.  That would explain the "towards" the inner sphere comment as well, if the touman's stopping early.

Anyone got makeup of what the arkship fleets are going to look like?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 17 January 2013, 09:50:43
Converted warships with added sections to their hull, usually in in the form of gutted dropships welded to the hull.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 January 2013, 11:13:24
Converted warships with added sections to their hull, usually in in the form of gutted dropships welded to the hull.
I meant the whole fleets.  How many ships, how big are they, mobile factories or just giant transports, whatnot.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 17 January 2013, 11:59:03
I meant the whole fleets.  How many ships, how big are they, mobile factories or just giant transports, whatnot.

That information has yet to be revealed.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 17 January 2013, 16:08:41
I meant the whole fleets.  How many ships, how big are they, mobile factories or just giant transports, whatnot.
Check the MWDA novel "Hunters of the Deep", it'll at least give you an idea of where the Foxes/Sharks are headed.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 January 2013, 16:12:04
No guesses on the mech behind Barbara Sennet?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/c/ca/Barbara_Sennet.jpg
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 17 January 2013, 16:43:38
I always thought it was a Grendel so your guess is spot on as far as I'm concerned.  :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 17 January 2013, 21:47:43
Wow, I'm really impressed with some of the recent posts here. As a Diamond Shark fan, I approve!

Quick question, though: why were the Sharks at Salonika? Is there some reason they were mustering there instead of somewhere closer to clan space?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 17 January 2013, 22:15:21
Wow, I'm really impressed with some of the recent posts here. As a Diamond Shark fan, I approve!

Quick question, though: why were the Sharks at Salonika? Is there some reason they were mustering there instead of somewhere closer to clan space?

Good Question.  And we need more Shark Fox fans to chime in.  We're the real mover shaker Clan, without us, our advances and our goods, everyone else comes down with a case of Touman Atrophy.  ;D  Except the Home Clans, but they were jerks anyway...   ;)

As for your question, Salonika was kind of in a no-mans-land so to speak.  I don't think the Sharks knew exactly how busy that area of space had become.  It was likely a predetermined fallback point that all Sharks would know to go to in a case like that, so they may have had little choice but to wait where they were at, even after being discovered.   

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 17 January 2013, 23:04:38
Good Question.  And we need more Shark Fox fans to chime in.  We're the real mover shaker Clan, without us, our advances and our goods, everyone else comes down with a case of Touman Atrophy.  ;D  Except the Home Clans, but they were jerks anyway...   ;)

As for your question, Salonika was kind of in a no-mans-land so to speak.  I don't think the Sharks knew exactly how busy that area of space had become.  It was likely a predetermined fallback point that all Sharks would know to go to in a case like that, so they may have had little choice but to wait where they were at, even after being discovered.   

Now, see, that makes a degree of sense, but I'm not buying it.

Don't get me wrong; Salonika is a good choice for a mid-point rally area for Diamond Shark refugees. It's midway between the IS and Clan Space, but midway between the Exodus Road and the invasion route. As a former Nova Cat fleet base, the system had been mapped but nobody in their right mind is going to just luck their way into there (not realizing that the Star Adders had ordered a clean sweep of the known periphery bases). So it's not a dumb waypoint.

But the problem is this. First, that many jumpships in one place makes the clan extremely vulnerable. Even if the odds of detection are low, there's going to be an emergency rally point. Taking Semi's account straight, after the Burrocks escaped attack number one, the Sharks would have been idiots not to declare an alternate star, one off the maps, to make for. You leave one ship, on station a good distance from the jump point, to spot arriving stragglers, verify their identities, and then forward them to the staging area. Even if they decide to stick around, if you have that many ships around, you at least prep the ship captains with the contingency. Their KF drives are long since charged, they're sitting around anyway. It's a no-brainer.

I mean, bonus points if the emergency alternate rally point is in empty interstellar space and you charge that next jump using your engines and fuel from some of your dropships. But the Sharks didn't even have a bad alternate. They just sat there collecting barnacles.

But they'd have to have been the heirs to the throne of the kingdom of idiots not to have had their jumpships pop out when the overwhelming Burrock forces showed up in battle #2. They sent their meager military forces to buy time. Time for what? They could have popped out in minutes. And while the warriors fought and died, the JumpShips sat and waited placidly for their fate.

A waypoint makes sense, but their behavior at the battle doesn't.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 17 January 2013, 23:58:23
By the way...

Those of you who saw the "What if the Blakists and/or Society had destroyed the clans" thread of doom also saw Stormfury's awesome spreadsheets analyzing the toumans of each clan based on published information. I was looking through them to make a point about the Steel Vipers, and did an overview of the average experience level of each Clan. I found something of interest to Shark Foxes.

The top three clans in warrior experience were the Wolves in Exile, then the Blood Spirits, and then at number three, the Diamond Sharks. That stunned me. The Wolves in Exile makes sense-- Ulric left Phalen with his best and brightest. It's a credit to Vlad that his Wolves manage to be middle of the road despite his recruiting tactics. And I get the Blood Spirits having limited equipment and so their Touman is all muscle, no fat.

But the Diamond Sharks have a sizeable touman and took crippling losses in their front line forces at Tukayyid. And actually unlike every other Clan in the Field Manuals, they actually understate their actual strength by using oversized Clusters. Apart from the Blood Spirits, whose reported strength is exactly correct, all other clans overstate how strong they are. They hide weakness, the Sharks are actually hiding strength.

One explanation might be their staffing policies. They don't use solahma forces, instead retiring most older warriors to the merchant caste. And when they needed to rebuild after Tukayyid, the retired warriors who were still combat ready returned to active duty (rather than resorting to cadets or up-checked civilians as other clans had to). The warriors genuinely past their prime drop out of the pool, while the best of the retirees are always available to bulk the touman up without resorting to unskilled recruits.

But, I mean, wow. It's one of those little factoids that sneaks up on you. The other clans look at the Shark warriors as being inferior and the clan as a whole as being weak--  but the reality is that it appears that that is exactly what they want you to think.

And just FYI, the three least experienced toumans belong to the Goliath Scorpions, the Jade Falcons (which considering how they've been gutted repeatedly isn't a surprise), and the Coyotes.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 18 January 2013, 01:33:59
SO THAT'S WHERE THE SPREADSHEETS ARE I WAS LOOKING ALL OVER FOR THEM

lol I ended up spending my night reading up on the Diamond Sharks, including looking at their forces as well.

I've never really been under the misconception that Shark warriors were weak. It's part of the appeal of them for me, everyone underestimates them and then they come knocking and wreck face. If you read up on the battles the Shark's have waged, they've actually won a staggering number of trials against forces that you'd expect to mop the floor with 'em.

And yeah, don't forget that you don't just have the forces on paper to deal with. Just check out what happened on Vinton. They had one cluster defending, and decided they needed more. Quick and easy retest, open the warehouses, boom instant forces at your disposal, most of them combat veterans. They mustered 10 freakin' clusters of mech and elemental forces on Vinton in a heartbeat, that's insane. Some of these guys are still pretty much active duty too, just look at the total warfare story where a merchant-warrior goes against hanseatic league forces to show off his product.

If push comes to shove, they're pretty scary.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 18 January 2013, 01:49:02
They also had six Bloodhouses of Elementals, all of them uncontested prior to events of the Jihad and Reavings. 

I bet the Diamond Shark Merchant Marine force has to be huge.  And again, definitely not weak.  Kind of the opposite, it's safe to say.  8)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 18 January 2013, 02:07:43
It's a lot easier to conduct business across the entire Inner Sphere if you aren't tied down to one or a couple of locations but instead have everything you need right there with you. The roaming trade fleets aren't necessarily a sign of hurting as much as they are of trying to do business in the most efficient way possible.

Yes, everything they need right there. Including all the needed labor. How many people can BT ships hold? Very few. The numbers are telling, and the Sharks don't even ask planets to settle their people on in return for their services. To convert your population to space-based nomads is easy, but the limited capacity of BT ships means they had a low post-Reaving population base to start with.

Those trade fleets wont necessarily "have everything you need right there with you". Mobile production sites are good for evading people like the Word of Blake, but they are not viable for the long term. Low output, high costs. That's not the way to run a successful business.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 January 2013, 02:15:32
Well, going into the Jihad I would say the Sharks are the quiet powerhouse, unlike the Star Adders.  Angus Labov has always been a character I found interesting and liked for TPTB to make the smart intelligent plays.  Going from running the merchants to saKhan gives him a solid grasp on the logistical state of the Sharks- IC I think you can hand it to him about the Sharks building a lot of the new wave (TROPP etc) of standard battlemechs which allowed the Sharks to deal with weaker powers as well as build hidden strength as you cited.

For instance, selling Solitaires to the Ghost Bears was hinted at and IMO the Sharks got the use of one of the Leviathans to move civies in the mid-60s before the refit.

Add in that Sennet & Labov seem to have no negative feelings to freebirths AND have a glut of standard (non-Omni) equipment they are producing leads to a lot more military strength IMO.  It would also seem to lend credence to the 'hidden strength' theory.  The Sharks were taking in a LOT of material resources in the '60s, acquiring access to all sorts of designs and equipment, and while they churned a lot out . . . its hard to believe we saw everything that was the end result of the moves.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 18 January 2013, 02:41:57
Wait, according to my copy of The Clans: Warriors of Kerensy, Salonika is a Shark facility. Sarna says Explorer Corps is the book (that I don't own) that lists it as being a Nova Cat base. Which book takes place later in the timeline? If Salonika is a Shark base, it would make sense that they would muster there, especially since most of their facilities in the deep went dark during the WoR. Attenbrooks, Ctesiphon and Suda Bay were all hit by Society forces, with the Sharks even losing a convoy at Suda Bay.

Yes, everything they need right there. Including all the needed labor. How many people can BT ships hold? Very few. The numbers are telling, and the Sharks don't even ask planets to settle their people on in return for their services. To convert your population to space-based nomads is easy, but the limited capacity of BT ships means they had a low post-Reaving population base to start with.

Those trade fleets wont necessarily "have everything you need right there with you". Mobile production sites are good for evading people like the Word of Blake, but they are not viable for the long term. Low output, high costs. That's not the way to run a successful business.

Apparently the Poseidon arcship will be able to hold 500,000 people. Multiply that a few times and add in the Chainelane populations and you've got a decent clan population. Of course, the Sharks aren't asking for planets to settle - they're taking 'em. They've got land in Falcon, Ghost Bear, Nova Cat controlled, Combine, Lyran and FWL space by the 3140s, I think? Then again, I have no clue what goes on in those little holdings they've got everywhere.

Add in that Sennet & Labov seem to have no negative feelings to freebirths AND have a glut of standard (non-Omni) equipment they are producing leads to a lot more military strength IMO.  It would also seem to lend credence to the 'hidden strength' theory.  The Sharks were taking in a LOT of material resources in the '60s, acquiring access to all sorts of designs and equipment, and while they churned a lot out . . . its hard to believe we saw everything that was the end result of the moves.

The interesting part is taking note of how much territory they quickly gained and gave up in the 60s. They snagged a bit of land from the eradication of the Jaguars, and they got a ton of real estate from helping the Bears and Cats move to the inner sphere. The Sharks could then choose which land to defend, when to pull back, and what to take with them. I would expect them to have seriously increased their potential manufacturing base at that time, shipping this newly gained tech to the inner sphere where it could be put to use.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 18 January 2013, 02:49:32
Yes, everything they need right there. Including all the needed labor. How many people can BT ships hold? Very few.

The Poseidon, after conversion, held half a million people.

Quote
The numbers are telling, and the Sharks don't even ask planets to settle their people on in return for their services.

The Sharks/Foxes have planetary holdings where they also have lots of people and industrial facilities.

Quote
To convert your population to space-based nomads is easy, but the limited capacity of BT ships means they had a low post-Reaving population base to start with.

If they only had people on the vessels. They don't.

I've never really been under the misconception that Shark warriors were weak.

Tukayyid probably has a lot to do with that.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 18 January 2013, 03:14:59
Apparently the Poseidon arcship will be able to hold 500,000 people. Multiply that a few times and add in the Chateleine populations and you've got a decent clan population. Of course, the Sharks aren't asking for planets to settle - they're taking 'em. They've got land in Falcon, Ghost Bear, Nova Cat controlled, Combine, Lyran and FWL space by the 3140s, I think? Then again, I have no clue what goes on in those little holdings they've got everywhere.

They settled a small city of specialists in the Chainelanes in 3070. Then they got cut off by Jan 3073. No matter how good they are at moving people, they cannot move so many millions in 3 years, and without Leviathans. Notice that they only have an outpost at Itabaiana, likewise on Trondheim, another in the Chaine Cluster, an "office" at Halfway and Nykvarn.

Quote
The Poseidon, after conversion, held half a million people. The Sharks/Foxes have planetary holdings where they also have lots of people and industrial facilities.

So? With 25 Aimags, 5 Khanates and 17 worlds, they have a total of 428,670,000 people in the Dark Age. My point has always been that the Sharks had a much lower post-Reaving population to rebuild with, and none of your points have actually rebutted it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 18 January 2013, 03:21:43
Fair enough, it's true that their population must have taken a hurtin' during the WoR. I'm not convinced it's why they went nomad though.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 18 January 2013, 03:29:20
A major reason is they wanted to be free of Spheroid "Taint". Roaming space on their own instead of settling and intermingling keeps their culture pure.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 18 January 2013, 03:36:01
Eh...I dunno. Did the Sharks really buy into that whole "taint" thing as much as the Homeworld Clans did? If they were worried about taint I doubt they'd come up with the Mad Cat III and Koshi II to sell to spheroids at low, low prices.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 18 January 2013, 04:00:55
They don't react to the concept as violently as the Adders and Vipers, but they do buy into it. Semi Kalasa was the leading critic of migrating to the IS for fear of intermingling cultures and was put in charge of their exodus. She also had a hand in the Labov Project.

The MCIII, Koshi, Black Hawk and Phoenix designs are just cash cows. They haven't seen any problems with it ever since they came up with the Mad Cat II.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 January 2013, 04:41:09
I am not sure a cargo Levi could transport more people than a Potemkin . . . especially when the Sharks controlled more Potemkins than Levis ever existed.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 18 January 2013, 04:51:23
True, but the Potemkins were not only used for transporting people? All the raw materials, goods etc would be competing for space with the people. Besides their own priorities, the Sharks had to honor their various deals with other parties.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 18 January 2013, 14:11:08
They don't react to the concept as violently as the Adders and Vipers, but they do buy into it. Semi Kalasa was the leading critic of migrating to the IS for fear of intermingling cultures and was put in charge of their exodus. She also had a hand in the Labov Project.

The MCIII, Koshi, Black Hawk and Phoenix designs are just cash cows. They haven't seen any problems with it ever since they came up with the Mad Cat II.

That's my point. The Sharks see no problems with selling designs to the inner sphere because they don't care about mingling with spheroids. Sure, Kalasa was against the exodus because she didn't want her clan to move away from the ways of the clans, but that doesn't suggest that she bought into the "Taint" idea that was floating around. She just didn't like spheroids and their way of life, that's kind of normal for a clanner.

The Sharks voted against both the Falcons and the Ravens being declared as tainted. The Sharks had way too much to lose by supporting the taint movement, they were a liberal clan dealing with inner sphere and abjured powers both economically and politically. They kept their loose caste system, kept all of their economic and political channels open, and kept their liberal interpretation of zellbringen throughout and after the WoR. There's nothing there that suggests to me that they're worried about taint.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 18 January 2013, 14:40:24
Tukayyid probably has a lot to do with that.

This. 

The Sharks basically fought a grueling stalemate, dug in to a valley position surrounded by hills, and were subsequently blown to bits by the 3rd Com Guard Army.  Little mention of any type of aerospace involvement on the part of the Crusader Sharks, allowing both premier Galaxies to be destroyed by artillery after several days of grinding.  It was the most lackluster entry for any Clan in that fracas.

The Sharks rebuilt fast enough, but that loss took a long time for them to live down amongst the Clans.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 18 January 2013, 14:44:06
They settled a small city of specialists in the Chainelanes in 3070. Then they got cut off by Jan 3073. No matter how good they are at moving people, they cannot move so many millions in 3 years, and without Leviathans. Notice that they only have an outpost at Itabaiana, likewise on Trondheim, another in the Chaine Cluster, an "office" at Halfway and Nykvarn.

So? With 25 Aimags, 5 Khanates and 17 worlds, they have a total of 428,670,000 people in the Dark Age. My point has always been that the Sharks had a much lower post-Reaving population to rebuild with, and none of your points have actually rebutted it.

Just for the record, using the timeline in Warriors of Kerensky, the Ghost Bears moved their entire Touman, including civilians and infrastructure, to the Inner Sphere in just under five years. And their pre-relocation population was much higher than that of the Sharks. (Also, we're all SharkFoxes here, we discuss rather than rebut  O:-) )

Potemkins carry about as much cargo as Leviathans, and the Sharks have lots of them. But rather than looking at the WarShips, let's look at conventional JumpShips, because four Behemoths, eight mammoths, or carry as much cargo as either WarShip. And the Sharks have tons of them. They lost 60 45 jumpships at Salonika and still apparently have lots. There were actually almost enough just at that one engagement to have run a command circuit if they'd chosen to do so.

The Sharks had major merchant missions in the IS going back to operation revival, but the new wave of dealings with the IS started in 3061 with the Draconis Combine and 3064 with general merchant missions. Around this time they got their first planets. In late 3068, the Khans decided to relocate the entire clan. They accelerated the already ongoing plans to relocate in 3070. The Sharks lost their last major relocation fleet at Salonika in 3072, but had refugees from Vinton coming in several years after that.

So they had the time and ships to relocate. Not as much as the Ghost Bears, but they also had a larger fleet and fewer civilians to move. It's not a slam dunk that they got most of their civilian population out, but there's also no evidence that they didn't, and the evidence we have suggests that they had the time and capability.

Finally, while Semi's portrait in WoR mentions how she utterly distrusts Spheroids, what about the other stuff? Do you have a reference? It makes sense and is in character for her, but I don't remember reading it anywhere and want to review.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 18 January 2013, 14:45:38
My point has always been that the Sharks had a much lower post-Reaving population to rebuild with, and none of your points have actually rebutted it.

If that was your point, you should have expressed it better. Here's what you actually said:
I think the Sharks are really hurting. If they had a large or growing population base after the WoR, they would not have converted to a nomadic lifestyle of basing them on roaming trade fleets.

So, no, your point as expressed here is not simply that they had a much lower post-Reaving population to rebuild with, but that they switched to a nomadic (though it's really only partially nomadic) lifestyle because they had a lower population. And there's no indication that's at all part of their reason for doing so. None.

In a sense, though, you are sort of pointing towards the right direction. The transition wasn't because they had a smaller population, but because they had fewer holdings in the Inner Sphere than other Clans and could not operate in all the markets they desired to operate in from only a small number of locales. So, if your customers can't come to you, you go to your customers. Ergo, nomadic trading fleets!

A major reason is they wanted to be free of Spheroid "Taint". Roaming space on their own instead of settling and intermingling keeps their culture pure.

There's also zero indication of this as any part of their reasons.

Especially since we know they did settle and intermingle. They had enclaves on 14 worlds by 3130 and even if you restrict the discussion to what they had in 3085, they had a couple then too. And it's not like they would have booted everyone of Spheroid ancestry off of the three worlds they've held since the mid 3060s either. No, the Sharks have mingled with Spheroids for decades and will continue to do so. Avoiding "taint" had nothing to do with their cultural transformation.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 18 January 2013, 14:54:08
That's my point. The Sharks see no problems with selling designs to the inner sphere because they don't care about mingling with spheroids. Sure, Kalasa was against the exodus because she didn't want her clan to move away from the ways of the clans, but that doesn't suggest that she bought into the "Taint" idea that was floating around. She just didn't like spheroids and their way of life, that's kind of normal for a clanner.

The Sharks voted against both the Falcons and the Ravens being declared as tainted. The Sharks had way too much to lose by supporting the taint movement, they were a liberal clan dealing with inner sphere and abjured powers both economically and politically. They kept their loose caste system, kept all of their economic and political channels open, and kept their liberal interpretation of zellbringen throughout and after the WoR. There's nothing there that suggests to me that they're worried about taint.

If anything, the Sharks believe that the Home Clans are tainted by greed and jealousy, too, and have twisted the Words of Kerensky and Clan Way to their own ends.

Cutting them off is a business decision above all.   They don't want the business right now anyway, and that's been made clear.  Maybe the Imperio or something might go on in Hansa space, but that's just speculation.

I think the Diamond Foxes have always believed that they actually know the will of Kerensky, because Karen Nagasawa was one of his inner circle, ghostwriting for him, as well as writing her own works based on his vision.  In that, they would be a fairly typical Clan, believing they know the truth.  But also, by association with the founder, whatever Karen Nagasawa had to say was pretty much just as important to the Shark Foxes.

We just never cared to make anyone else believe it.   They can believe what they want, economic reality moves forward regardless.  O0 O:-)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 18 January 2013, 15:01:52
This. 

The Sharks basically fought a grueling stalemate, dug in to a valley position surrounded by hills, and were subsequently blown to bits by the 3rd Com Guard Army.  Little mention of any type of aerospace involvement on the part of the Crusader Sharks, allowing both premier Galaxies to be destroyed by artillery after several days of grinding.  It was the most lackluster entry for any Clan in that fracas.

The Sharks rebuilt fast enough, but that loss took a long time for them to live down amongst the Clans.

You know, a thought: If the Sharks had been hiding strength....what if those two galaxies were actually INTENDED to be wiped out,
to, again, create the illusion that the Sharks were not as strong as they were? It was after Tukkayyid, in fact, that we see the Sharks
starting to do their dealings(small in the beginning) with the IS. Could it be that the Warriors in those galaxies were the ones who
opposed trade with the Inner Sphere? I mean..the designs from the Sharks first seen at Tukkayyid were the Thresher and the Pirahnna, both rather inexpensive designs. If the Sharks used that to clear out a bunch of older 'mechs and surplus equipment they no longer needed, and then PLANNED to put the recall of older warriors after Tukkayyid to begin with....

After all: All the Clans traded with the Sharks. If the other Clans thought the sharks were weak, then the Sharks had advantage in
that for Trial purposes...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 18 January 2013, 15:13:12
If that were the plan, would both Khans have been there and potentially died there?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 18 January 2013, 15:25:37
You know, a thought: If the Sharks had been hiding strength....what if those two galaxies were actually INTENDED to be wiped out,
to, again, create the illusion that the Sharks were not as strong as they were? It was after Tukkayyid, in fact, that we see the Sharks
starting to do their dealings(small in the beginning) with the IS. Could it be that the Warriors in those galaxies were the ones who
opposed trade with the Inner Sphere? I mean..the designs from the Sharks first seen at Tukkayyid were the Thresher and the Pirahnna, both rather inexpensive designs. If the Sharks used that to clear out a bunch of older 'mechs and surplus equipment they no longer needed, and then PLANNED to put the recall of older warriors after Tukkayyid to begin with....

After all: All the Clans traded with the Sharks. If the other Clans thought the sharks were weak, then the Sharks had advantage in
that for Trial purposes...

Nice theory, but I think the more parsimonious explanation is three words long:

Ian Friggin' Hawker.

Even his last words were brimming with cluelessness. His performance before, during, and after Operation Revival painted the picture of a man who didn't belong in the Khanship but who couldn't be pried loose with a crowbar even after it was blazingly obvious that he was a screw-up anywhere outside a mech cockpit.

Part of the reason that the other clans thought the Sharks had been taken over by their merchants was because Sennet and Labov had to work around him to keep the touman from falling apart entirely. Not being interested in counting coins and reviewing spreadsheets, he focused on plotting with Enrico Dandolo reborn: Asa Taney.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 18 January 2013, 16:43:31
You know, a thought: If the Sharks had been hiding strength....what if those two galaxies were actually INTENDED to be wiped out,
to, again, create the illusion that the Sharks were not as strong as they were? It was after Tukkayyid, in fact, that we see the Sharks
starting to do their dealings(small in the beginning) with the IS. Could it be that the Warriors in those galaxies were the ones who
opposed trade with the Inner Sphere? I mean..the designs from the Sharks first seen at Tukkayyid were the Thresher and the Pirahnna, both rather inexpensive designs. If the Sharks used that to clear out a bunch of older 'mechs and surplus equipment they no longer needed, and then PLANNED to put the recall of older warriors after Tukkayyid to begin with....

After all: All the Clans traded with the Sharks. If the other Clans thought the sharks were weak, then the Sharks had advantage in
that for Trial purposes...

The Crusaders had taken control, and then most of them were wiped out.   I can't help but think that the liberal backbone of the Clan among the warriors and in the Merchant caste stood back and were not too upset by their destruction. 

A costly loss, though, and as said by roosterboy, both Khans could have been blasted by Long Tom and Arrow fire pretty easily, so I don't think that killing off all the most annoying Crusaders was their intention...   it was simply the effect.  ;)

It's noted that Khan Hawker's position is increasingly more tenuous after this, sliding downward until his death.

Edit: And I'll never argue against the Shark Foxes using both positions of strength or positions of perceived weakness to their advantage.  That's something they have done often.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 18 January 2013, 17:34:23
Nice theory, but I think the more parsimonious explanation is three words long:

Ian Friggin' Hawker.

Even his last words were brimming with cluelessness. His performance before, during, and after Operation Revival painted the picture of a man who didn't belong in the Khanship but who couldn't be pried loose with a crowbar even after it was blazingly obvious that he was a screw-up anywhere outside a mech cockpit.

Part of the reason that the other clans thought the Sharks had been taken over by their merchants was because Sennet and Labov had to work around him to keep the touman from falling apart entirely. Not being interested in counting coins and reviewing spreadsheets, he focused on plotting with Enrico Dandolo reborn: Asa Taney.

The fluff indicates that the merchants and retired bloodnamed warrior council allowed the Crusaders to take control, in order to harness the energy of these younger warriors toward ensuring that the Sharks were included in the invasion.  It worked after a time and fashion (one thing for sure: they were confident in their Touman, they seemed disapointed to have not made the top 4).

Tukayyid was where the Sharks shed a lot of Crusader zeal.  It was a horrible loss, and expensive in life and machine, but the Diamond Sharks that we know emerge.  People like Labov could predict an outcome like this.   Everything worked out perfectly, and their identity was never subverted by the Crusader cause. 

Sharks will be Foxes, or some such butchering of an old maxim. :)   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 January 2013, 22:05:35
My point about the Potemkins was not how much cargo they could carry by themselves . . . its how many DS they can strap on.

As for the Sharks at Tukayyid . . . the 'loss of strength' is a farce IMO.  Five clusters were involved, two from Alpha and Gamma with one from Omega.  3rd Shark Regulars (Omega) died saving the pure freeborn units when they had to run, which honestly was a huge political blow to Hawker.  First he was forced due to losing a Trial to include them, then positions them as the DZ reserve to keep them out of any action, then they are rescued by a cluster made up solely of freebirths.  Troops he had moved out of frontline galaxies by decree.  It really broke his power.  Anyway, out of the four escaped clusters, they were able to reform a single one (though why they did not stand the 369th back up is a wonder) which still leaves what . . . five of the eight clusters of two frontline galaxies with Beta, the Spinas and garrison galaxies untouched.

The losses would have been among the Crusaders, units picked by Hawker.  To have the Crusaders who were supposed to prove something get smashed and require rescuing by FREEBIRTHS who they look down on . . . big political earthquake.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 18 January 2013, 22:26:12
The losses would have been among the Crusaders, units picked by Hawker.  To have the Crusaders who were supposed to prove something get smashed and require rescuing by FREEBIRTHS who they look down on . . . big political earthquake.

You know, all you're saying was already mentioned in the field manuals, but the way you said it really brings home the impact. Everyone probably knew that Hawker was a fool by this point, but after Tukayyid, everyone's saying it. Loudly. No wonder he let Sennet and Labov alone.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 19 January 2013, 05:35:21
Just for the record, using the timeline in Warriors of Kerensky, the Ghost Bears moved their entire Touman, including civilians and infrastructure, to the Inner Sphere in just under five years. And their pre-relocation population was much higher than that of the Sharks. (Also, we're all SharkFoxes here, we discuss rather than rebut  O:-) )

Finally, while Semi's portrait in WoR mentions how she utterly distrusts Spheroids, what about the other stuff? Do you have a reference? It makes sense and is in character for her, but I don't remember reading it anywhere and want to review.

The Ghost Bears had the advantage of loaning considerable transport assets from the Ravens and the Sharks. I don't see that happening after 3068, when every Clan is scrambling for those. Yes, discussion is much better :)

Yes, the Sharks have an extensive transport fleet, but the loss to the Burrocks, their known usage of Potemkins and other assets to transport massive quantities of war material(the Titanic sinking and the "huge resupply convoys to the Wolves") would cut into the availability of at least a portion of the fleet for evacuating the Homeworlds population.

WoR, P.36
Quote
Khan Sennet knew the future of the Clan lay within the open and rich waters of the Inner Sphere. As the merchant caste continued to spread deeper-along with the Watch-Sennet knew the Clan could not simply remain in the Homeworlds without some of the more stringent Clans taking exception to the Sharks' dealings. Both she and saKhan Labov began making plans to extract the Sharks from the stagnant grip of the Kerensky Cluster, a move that did not meet with the approval of Loremaster Semi Kalasa. Seeing the plan as one of abandoning the ways of Clans, Kalasa fought a determined Trial of Refusal against her Khan. Though Khan Sennet ultimately won, she did recognize the wisdom of her Loremaster and charged her to make sure the Shark extraction would proceed honorably-and quietly.

Her views are much like Andrews and Vlad's concept of "Taint", just not as extreme and not to be met with a violent solution.

That's my point. The Sharks see no problems with selling designs to the inner sphere because they don't care about mingling with spheroids. Sure, Kalasa was against the exodus because she didn't want her clan to move away from the ways of the clans, but that doesn't suggest that she bought into the "Taint" idea that was floating around. She just didn't like spheroids and their way of life, that's kind of normal for a clanner.

The Sharks voted against both the Falcons and the Ravens being declared as tainted.

There's a difference between settling in and mingling with Spheroids versus just acting as arms suppliers. It's just technology and equipment, nothing to do with culture.

I think the Sharks voted like that only as an act of solidarity with fellow Invader Clans.

If that was your point, you should have expressed it better. Here's what you actually said:
So, no, your point as expressed here is not simply that they had a much lower post-Reaving population to rebuild with, but that they switched to a nomadic (though it's really only partially nomadic) lifestyle because they had a lower population. And there's no indication that's at all part of their reason for doing so. None.

In a sense, though, you are sort of pointing towards the right direction. The transition wasn't because they had a smaller population, but because they had fewer holdings in the Inner Sphere than other Clans and could not operate in all the markets they desired to operate in from only a small number of locales. So, if your customers can't come to you, you go to your customers. Ergo, nomadic trading fleets!

There's also zero indication of this as any part of their reasons.

Especially since we know they did settle and intermingle. They had enclaves on 14 worlds by 3130 and even if you restrict the discussion to what they had in 3085, they had a couple then too. And it's not like they would have booted everyone of Spheroid ancestry off of the three worlds they've held since the mid 3060s either. No, the Sharks have mingled with Spheroids for decades and will continue to do so. Avoiding "taint" had nothing to do with their cultural transformation.

Thank you for expressing what i had in mind in a better way.

The preventing intermingling part was just one of the reasons, not the only reason. Of course they won't be forcibly deporting Spheroids off their planets, but all their enclaves and worlds in the Inner Sphere are classified/termed "trading worlds", "warehouse worlds", "trading outposts", "offices", not Occupation Zones/some kind of realm, which suggests that like the imperial powers of the colonial era, there is a segregation between the natives and the newcomers, not integration/intermingling like the Ghost Bears, Snow Ravens, Hell's Horses, and Jade Falcons(to an extent).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 19 January 2013, 10:54:11
The Ghost Bears had the advantage of loaning considerable transport assets from the Ravens and the Sharks. I don't see that happening after 3068, when every Clan is scrambling for those. Yes, discussion is much better :)

Yes, the Sharks have an extensive transport fleet, but the loss to the Burrocks, their known usage of Potemkins and other assets to transport massive quantities of war material(the Titanic sinking and the "huge resupply convoys to the Wolves") would cut into the availability of at least a portion of the fleet for evacuating the Homeworlds population.

Additionally, the Ghost Bears only moved a portion, a significant portion, but only a portion of the Clan to the Inner Sphere.  They left behind millions of their lower castes as well as several production facilities including Tokasha MechWorks.  If we are talking solely about their Touman and their immediate support elements, then one has to consider that almost 50% of the Clan's Touman was already present in the Inner Sphere.

That said they undoubtedly received assistance from their Snow Raven allies and possibly some from the Diamond Sharks.  The biggest contribution the Sharks made was most likely simply keeping quiet about the Ghost Bears move to the IS.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 19 January 2013, 16:21:15
The biggest contribution the Sharks made was most likely simply keeping quiet about the Ghost Bears move to the IS.

...we may or may not have sold them lots of boxes and tape.  And handy little "Welcome Home" packages with candy, fruit and little emergency candles.  :)

I'm pretty sure it was mostly the Ravens who helped, though.  The Ravens and the Bears roll thick like that. 

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 19 January 2013, 22:04:28
Additionally, the Ghost Bears only moved a portion, a significant portion, but only a portion of the Clan to the Inner Sphere.  They left behind millions of their lower castes as well as several production facilities including Tokasha MechWorks.  If we are talking solely about their Touman and their immediate support elements, then one has to consider that almost 50% of the Clan's Touman was already present in the Inner Sphere.

That said they undoubtedly received assistance from their Snow Raven allies and possibly some from the Diamond Sharks.  The biggest contribution the Sharks made was most likely simply keeping quiet about the Ghost Bears move to the IS.

That also gives the Ghost Bears a considerable head-start to other Clans making their post-3067 exoduses.

Agreed too, the Ravens would assist the most. That being said, i hope to see a Raven population figure in a future product after the WoR. They must be hurting even worse than the Shark Foxes.

Well, keeping quiet has always been a Shark trait. It's what allows them to build stable relationships with other factions and gain so much.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 20 January 2013, 14:41:12
Well, keeping quiet has always been a Shark trait. It's what allows them to build stable relationships with other factions and gain so much.

FM: WC does state that the Diamond Sharks felt they owed a debt to the Ghost Bears for Paxon and that they were going to repay the debt through fair trade agreements.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 20 January 2013, 15:57:18
That's true, and it likely further enticed the Ravens into moving.  They were already looking toward that anyway, but it can't hurt to have the main mercantile Clan already in the IS, assisting your main ally.  With a stable ally like the Ghost Bears in place and prospering in the IS, why stay with the Snake Clans? 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 20 January 2013, 16:10:23
Because the snakes have pie and punch. Its the same thing the innersphere used to lure the bears into moving in, all the pie and punch you can munch!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 20 January 2013, 16:16:21
Of course!  The IS had pie and punch... ;D 

idk about the Home Clans, though.  Cornbread and coolaid are not the same things as pie and punch.  Cornbread is all good, but the Home World's supply of it was getting stale.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 20 January 2013, 16:20:09
<Cartmen Tseng> "Tell them the innersphere has punch and pie"
<Kyle> "I'm not gonna put that on the chatterweb"
 <Cartmen Tseng> "Do it, if you tell people there will be punch and pie, more people will show up"

 Or thats how i see the discussion the bears were having went. ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 January 2013, 21:54:34
Whatever happened to Galaxy Commander Bikendi Vewas of Omega Galaxy?  And the two Omega clusters taken by the Bears as Isorla on Nyserta when they got it back?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 26 January 2013, 14:33:10
Dunno, but he was either killed or replaced by Blake Hawker by '61. The text in FM:W seems to imply that Hawker replaced Bikendi Vewas immediately after Tukayyid+Nyseta gutted Omega, so Hawker probably died in one of those two conflicts. The remains of the two clusters taken as Isorla were probably folded into one of the 2nd line Ghost Bear Clusters.

I've got a really stupid question, but one that's been bugging me all the same: what have the Sharkfoxes been doing with all the money they're making? They're selling practically everything they can.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 26 January 2013, 14:48:20

I've got a really stupid question, but one that's been bugging me all the same: what have the Sharkfoxes been doing with all the money they're making? They're selling practically everything they can.
That is what they use to fund all their secrets.  Secret naval yards for repairs and refits of their ships - as well as those of the highest bidder - secret production facilities, secret trade routes to people on worlds few others may know about in turn making more money...   much is real, like in the Chainlaines, but there are always hints and rumors of more resources than we know about.

Plus what we are shown in the various sources.   



Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 26 January 2013, 15:03:31
That is what they use to fund all their secrets.  Secret naval yards for repairs and refits of their ships - as well as those of the highest bidder - secret production facilities, secret trade routes to people on worlds few others may know about in turn making more money...   much is real, like in the Chainlaines, but there are always hints and rumors of more resources than we know about.

Plus what we are shown in the various sources.

 Well theres your not so secret naval yards your building in Tuk, plus you and the ravens are using the Alshain yards as well... So thank you sharks for your money  O0
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 26 January 2013, 15:26:25
Takes money to make money.  ;)

And hey - most people say Don't feed the bear.  Shark Foxes clearly know better than that.  Feeding the bear is good for you!

Besides...   what else are you using it for?  Don't you Bears have a three ship navy? 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on 26 January 2013, 15:27:58
<.< I thought the money was to open that new chain of buffets.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 26 January 2013, 15:36:44
Don't tell that to the Bears!  Swedenese carryout will be our primary competition as it is.  ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 26 January 2013, 15:46:42
Takes money to make money.  ;)

And hey - most people say Don't feed the bear.  Shark Foxes clearly know better than that.  Feeding the bear is good for you!

Besides...   what else are you using it for?  Don't you Bears have a three ship navy?

 Yeah =( but don't worry, We'll forget aaaaall about that once your buffet opens!! I'm sure its all you can eat Quaff? ^_^
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 26 January 2013, 15:49:15
So the Sharkfox master plan is to get everyone as fat as possible? Devious.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 26 January 2013, 15:57:28
I blame the dirty spheroids and their dezgra recipes. What do you MEAN using vanilla and Cinnamon is breaking cooking zell!!! Tho to be honest, I wouldn't surprise me if they really did do something that devious in cannon.

 <Shark khan> "Once we have given them Diabetes...we strike"

Also, yaaaaaaay, getting closer to the name change ^__^. As one of my top 3 favorite clans i'm excited.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 26 January 2013, 16:30:13
As you see, there are many layers to the Chain Buffet Plot. 

For one thing, only open a franchise on a planet that we also dominate the healthcare industry.  And as everyone knows, we do that not by training doctors, but half-training large bodies of bureaucrats and cubical gnomes.   ;D

The ones who survive to pass on their genes find that a special enzyme - say, in the calamari for example - has actually hardwired a deep biological addiction to the Buffet's cooking :)  (aka, the McDonald's Enzyme Plot, stolen named from a long forgotten scam of similar nature perpetrated on a willing populace).

::finishes large chocolate shake::
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 26 January 2013, 22:14:40
Strictly speaking, the Sharks are like all Clans: they don't turn a profit at all. It's all kept as retained income and reinvested in operations.

What we typically see of the Shark Foxes is their merchant caste. Think of them as their sales and marketing division. Those massive ArcShips are a channel of distribution and mobile retail storefront wrapped together. They offer products and presumably buy resources with the proceeds. No doubt, some clever plays with Kerenskies/C-bills make things even more lucrative. Being mobile, they can move on once they take the cream off the top of the market, always chasing the most profitable markets.

Of course, that's only half of what makes a good corporation. There's also operations and R&D. In other words, they need manpower and gear to transform the resources they buy into the products that they sell. The way I see it, there are two possibilities:


Either way, the profits ultimately take the form of surplus finished clantech goods and/or resources. These presumably get reinvested in their operations. No matter what their actual status, it ultimately converts into a higher standard of living for their civilians and a larger touman for the warrior caste.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 26 January 2013, 22:52:20
I second that conclusion. Whatever the process, the bottomline is the Shark Foxes will have a higher standard of living than the typical Spheroid or Spheroid Clanner. In that case, having a lower population base would boost their per capita income a lot.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 26 January 2013, 23:09:19
I second that conclusion. Whatever the process, the bottomline is the Shark Foxes will have a higher standard of living than the typical Spheroid or Spheroid Clanner. In that case, having a lower population base would boost their per capita income a lot.

And whichever of us is right, either way the Sharks have managed to develop a clan way of life that keeps their core territory and civilians from being subjected to Trials of Possession. So far as I know, none of the IS clans challenge the sharks for an ArcShip or its contents, and I don't know of them losing any trading worlds between "now" and 3140. That's got to be worth a sigh of relief from the Shark civilians who escaped the kerensky cluster.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 26 January 2013, 23:19:47
Agreed with Wellspring.  The term "Money" was being used in place of wealth above.  And of course, as a Clan, all wealth goes back to the Clan.  Its a business backed up by their way of life.  Nice break down of the situation, as always.  O0

And agreed with Ark Royal's reasoning about one thing in particular:  The Sharks could be weaker than we realize, but also, they have the ability to lull folks into believing that whether its true or not.  Shark Fox history is filled with instances of other Clans deriding them as weak and soft merchants, a claim often rebutted by the warriors.  As already mentioned, they seem to have traded on that ability to make others underestimate their resolve, making large gains in that way while defending their right to conduct Clan business as they see fit.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 26 January 2013, 23:45:39
So far as I know, none of the IS clans challenge the sharks for an ArcShip or its contents

The Wolves did try and seize a Swimmer Khanate aimag in 3097. Not quite the same as an ArcShip, granted, but still a significant chunk of one Khanate. They failed and paid the price later that same year, losing two full clusters and suffering a 200% price increase on all dealings with the Sharks.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 27 January 2013, 00:50:25
Thanks for the answers everyone!

We now know how the Clan reacts when someone tries to grab one of their aimags, but how do you all think they'd act if, say, Clan Ghost Bear were to invade and attempt to take over Trondheim and Tukayyid?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 27 January 2013, 01:12:36
That's why we "feed the Bear", see?    :)

Taking Trondheim and Tukayyid would be all too easy, and obvious, militarily.  The Shark Foxes could maybe put up a really vicious fight, but the Bears have numbers and their logistics base is right on top of those areas.  They would not hold out too long.

After a while, people grow accustomed to our goods so this isn't such a concern.  They know the price to pay for trying to rip us off, as long as we show them the price gun every now and then.  Like with the Wolves and Swimmer Aimag, which is another great point.

But, if it did happen, and we were chased out of both planets as you say, the Bears would be basically cut off from business, and you'd likely see the Wolves, Hell's Horses and Nova Cats all getting nice deals on real Omnis.  And maybe we pick a better world or two for our troubles  ;D 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 27 January 2013, 03:29:12
Thanks for the answers everyone!

We now know how the Clan reacts when someone tries to grab one of their aimags, but how do you all think they'd act if, say, Clan Ghost Bear were to invade and attempt to take over Trondheim and Tukayyid?

 Since you only have a enclave on Tukayyid, i don't see us really needing to "invade"  ;) Plus your a handy group to have around.   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 27 January 2013, 03:42:13
Fox trading outposts on worlds controlled by the IS or Invader Clans are sort of like Hong Kong used to be, trade ports that were a gateway to wider markets.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 27 January 2013, 11:14:00
Has anyone else ever picked up on the origins of the "Cruiser" Cluster designation? The Sharks Touman circa FM: WC lists several "Cruiser" Clusters, one per Galaxy actually.

I was puzzled by it for quite a while. It made me think of "Cruiser" submarines from around WWII, which were larger subs designed for truly long distance travel and independent operations. I think I assumed it stemmed from that or was just borrowed from naval nomenclature in general by a Clan with a sea-based totem. But I was just reading something the other day about U.K. tanks before and during in WWII. They were divided into two classifications, infantry support tanks and "Cruiser" tanks, which were used like cavalry and designed with high speed in mind. Being an American, I just never knew that.

With that knowledge in hand I went back into FM: WC and realized the Sharks' Cruiser Clusters follow this model. Each one emphasizes "flanking maneuvers", "rapid deployment" or great speed like the Sturm Wache Cluster. It looks like nearly every Galaxy included a Cruiser Cluster at some point. They represented a fast maneuver force often equipped with fast or light mechs.

I'm sure someone else figured this out years ago, but its news to me. I learned something new today.   :)

It does make me wonder, assuming the above is true, what brought about the Sharks' grasping the term and applying it this way. If it does indeed have an old world Terra connection I feel like it might have been put in place by one of the Clan's founding warriors. Possibly someone with personal history or connection to the British Isles.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 27 January 2013, 12:33:22
The Sharks have very different designations for their Clusters. Are they just different names for the standard Striker-Battle-Assault designations?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 27 January 2013, 13:48:18
The Sharks have very different designations for their Clusters. Are they just different names for the standard Striker-Battle-Assault designations?

Many years ago, I went through FM:WC and tried to figure out what the Sharks meant by the different cluster names. Despite giving it my best shot, I never figured it out.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 27 January 2013, 14:52:51
After spending some time today investigating here is what I think:

Strike: Main line combat. Largely a generic distinction incorporating a healthy amount of medium/heavy/assault mechs with elemental and aero support. Some Strike Clusters seem to be heavier weight. All appeared to be focused on ground combat. Akin to an assault/battle/Guard Cluster in other Clans. Should not be confused with the "Striker" designation in some Clans that indicates a lighter weight unit.

Cruiser: Oriented toward speedy mechs, light and medium weight machines, many have ample aero or elemental support to offset their lack of staying power. These Clusters emphasize tactics and strategies that emphasize speed and maneuverability and some are noted for their scouting skills as well. In some other Clans these units would be called Striker or Recon Clusters.

Combined-Assault and Combined-Strike: The exact composition varies depending on Galaxy Assignment and the availability of an Air Assault Cluster. In Front-line Galaxies where no Air Assault Cluster exists, Combined-Assault or Combined-Strike Clusters emphasize air support with multiple ASF Trinaries or Binaries and are the central focus of air power for the entire Galaxy. Their structure is similar to some Cloud Cobra Clusters, with multiple aero Trinaries backed to a few mech/elemental Trinaries or Binaries. In Galaxies where "Air Assault" Clusters exist, these units are more varied in composition. With some emphasizing strong Elemental/Mech combos while others emphasize strong mech/aero combos. Or they are evenly split, one Cluster had 2 mech Trinaries, 2 Elemental Trinaries, and 2 Aero Trinaries. The exact composition is molded in part by the needs of the parent Galaxy. These units are sometimes molded to shore up wherever the parent Galaxy is weak. For example in the Rho Spina Galaxy, their Combined-Assault Cluster was assigned the Galaxy's only air support. Oddball elements, like armored vehicles, also tend to end up in these Clusters. Front-line units of this type should be thought of as Air Attack Clusters. Second-line units of this type in other Clans might be considered equivalent to "Regulars" or PGCs.

Air Assault: As the name suggests, these units make use of multiple Trinaries or Binaries of fighters, with sometimes as little as a Trinary or Supernova of ground forces backing them up. They tend to be the second-line equivilant of the air focused Combined-Assault or Combined Strike Clusters in front-line Galaxies.

Command Clusters: Often shaped by the Galaxy Commander as they see fit, these units vary in composition, but they tend to have a healthy amount of every unit type, 'mechs, elementals and ASFs, with Supernovas being common. They tend to get some of the best equipment and warriors.

Its important to note that plenty of exceptions exist. For example in Gamma Galaxy the presence of a mech-heavy Assault Cluster has allowed the 21st Strike Cluster to focus itself into a mostly Elemental Cluster. Some units have also been molded by tradition and their composition has veered away from what they probably were originally, but they retain their original name.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Hellraiser on 27 January 2013, 21:36:13
From the cluster descriptions I would say Cruiser Clusters are the equilent of SLDF Striker units.
Built for Speed, Rapid Deployment, & Recon.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 28 January 2013, 00:18:20
After spending some time today investigating here is what I think:

Strike: Main line combat. Largely a generic distinction incorporating a healthy amount of medium/heavy/assault mechs with elemental and aero support. Some Strike Clusters seem to be heavier weight. All appeared to be focused on ground combat. Akin to an assault/battle/Guard Cluster in other Clans. Should not be confused with the "Striker" designation in some Clans that indicates a lighter weight unit.

Cruiser: Oriented toward speedy mechs, light and medium weight machines, many have ample aero or elemental support to offset their lack of staying power. These Clusters emphasize tactics and strategies that emphasize speed and maneuverability and some are noted for their scouting skills as well. In some other Clans these units would be called Striker or Recon Clusters.

Combined-Assault and Combined-Strike: The exact composition varies depending on Galaxy Assignment and the availability of an Air Assault Cluster. In Front-line Galaxies where no Air Assault Cluster exists, Combined-Assault or Combined-Strike Clusters emphasize air support with multiple ASF Trinaries or Binaries and are the central focus of air power for the entire Galaxy. Their structure is similar to some Cloud Cobra Clusters, with multiple aero Trinaries backed to a few mech/elemental Trinaries or Binaries. In Galaxies where "Air Assault" Clusters exist, these units are more varied in composition. With some emphasizing strong Elemental/Mech combos while others emphasize strong mech/aero combos. Or they are evenly split, one Cluster had 2 mech Trinaries, 2 Elemental Trinaries, and 2 Aero Trinaries. The exact composition is molded in part by the needs of the parent Galaxy. These units are sometimes molded to shore up wherever the parent Galaxy is weak. For example in the Rho Spina Galaxy, their Combined-Assault Cluster was assigned the Galaxy's only air support. Oddball elements, like armored vehicles, also tend to end up in these Clusters. Front-line units of this type should be thought of as Air Attack Clusters. Second-line units of this type in other Clans might be considered equivalent to "Regulars" or PGCs.

Air Assault: As the name suggests, these units make use of multiple Trinaries or Binaries of fighters, with sometimes as little as a Trinary or Supernova of ground forces backing them up. They tend to be the second-line equivilant of the air focused Combined-Assault or Combined Strike Clusters in front-line Galaxies.

Command Clusters: Often shaped by the Galaxy Commander as they see fit, these units vary in composition, but they tend to have a healthy amount of every unit type, 'mechs, elementals and ASFs, with Supernovas being common. They tend to get some of the best equipment and warriors.

Its important to note that plenty of exceptions exist. For example in Gamma Galaxy the presence of a mech-heavy Assault Cluster has allowed the 21st Strike Cluster to focus itself into a mostly Elemental Cluster. Some units have also been molded by tradition and their composition has veered away from what they probably were originally, but they retain their original name.

Wow, a very detailed analysis. Good job!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Hellraiser on 30 January 2013, 15:43:43
I've got a really stupid question, but one that's been bugging me all the same: what have the Sharkfoxes been doing with all the money they're making? They're selling practically everything they can. 

One thing to remember is the Sharks have never had an OZ in the IS.  So they have to get a lot of raw resources from IS worlds to refine into that lovely clan tech.

Sure they end up w/ some profit but in the end they are having to pay out a lot compared to clans with a 40+ world OZ.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 30 January 2013, 16:34:29
One thing to remember is the Sharks have never had an OZ in the IS.  So they have to get a lot of raw resources from IS worlds to refine into that lovely clan tech.

Sure they end up w/ some profit but in the end they are having to pay out a lot compared to clans with a 40+ world OZ.

Actually, that's a classic build-or-buy situation in operations management. If I mine the resources myself on one of my worlds, I have to pay for the miners, mining equipment, transportation, refining, more transportation, manufacturing, and all the tech teams and infrastructure required to support all that. And the garrison to defend all that infrastructure. Or, I can buy from someone else who incurs all those costs.

Depending on the situation, it might be cheaper for me to do it myself or hire a third party. As someone was mentioning recently, both the Clans and the IS have a bias towards autarky-- that is, doing everything themselves rather than outsourcing. That suggests there's significant excess profits to be made by someone who is willing to outsource.

(As a very rough and extreme example, when you're thirsty, you don't mine bauxite, refine it, and forge a container, then fill it with water flavored with sugar you grew on your own farm... you drop a buck into the drink machine and a can of Coke comes out. The same logic applies to build-or-buy -- albeit with the numbers usually much closer. )
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 30 January 2013, 16:59:01
A canon source (might have been Masters and Minions, might have been FM: 3085) noted that the Sharks have been buying up raw materials, and then turning that into finished products that they sell. And they've managed to make that work as a source of revenue.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: blackwizards on 31 January 2013, 21:30:41
First post. Hello!


The sharks have always been interesting to me, because they're so different. While I like the whole clan warrior cast society thing the Sharks/Foxes are cool because another cast of theirs actually matters (as opposed to all the other clans, who have the other casts but they just kind of lurk in the background). The whole warrior-merchant thing appeals to me too, and I like that within the Sharks warriors will often retire to work as merchants and its not seen as a disgrace necessarily.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 01 February 2013, 01:57:19
Welcome to the best page on the 'web, blackwizards.

Warriors even get to come back out of retirement if they can test out, like Angus Labov did.  Sometimes there's some danger involved with that, but that's what BT is about. 

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wolflord on 02 February 2013, 14:29:28
Quick question for sharkfoxes if the wolves had offered to trade their Paxon enclave to the sharks in late 3056 what would the sharks have been willing to trade in exchange? For the sake of argument I am looking for answers other than "nothing we don't want it" or Gunfire!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 02 February 2013, 15:18:58
Quick question for sharkfoxes if the wolves had offered to trade their Paxon enclave to the sharks in late 3056 what would the sharks have been willing to trade in exchange? For the sake of argument I am looking for answers other than "nothing we don't want it" or Gunfire!

To answer obliquely, "What do you require?"

The problem is that Paxon doesn't fix any of the problems that the Sharks are having. They lost their sole IS possession (Nyserta) to the Ghost Bears, and yet are still eager to be trading in the IS. They took massive losses at Tukayyid and yet still have to hold their massive clan space possessions with what's left. The Adders smelled blood in the water and had been staging Trials for Diamond Shark territory.

Their main needs are military hardware and warm bodies to operate it. In this era, Khan Hawker is letting saKhan Sennet and Factor Angus try to scrape together a replacement Touman. Long term, sure it's more resources, but in the short run Paxon is a white elephant: more to defend but nothing immediately to defend it with. It's sure to be lost in a Trial to someone.

So they won't trade cash, resources, capital equipment, ships, or labor.

What might make sense is a land swap for territory that's harder to defend but equally lucrative. Not knowing the relative profitability of each enclave, I can't really tell you for sure, but... the possession on New Kent, for example, was sure to be targeted by the Vipers at some point, but is very while they have it. The Wolves have the strength to hold it.

Tathis would make sense if I were at all worried about fighting Ice Hellions. Hell, it's worth it just as a training ground for newly blooded warriors to fight an easy opponent. The Sharks wanted the rest of Vinton before the Jaguars were destroyed, for whatever reason it's considered worth fighting for. Strato Domingo and Lum are right out. Maybe Priori? The thing is, the Sharks and Adders are friendly rivals with similar outlooks on life. Delios might make sense, depending on what's there. Barcella they didn't have at the time (they got it later from the Cats and Bears).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 02 February 2013, 15:23:17
Vinton was described as being one of the few Clan worlds that was self-sufficient.  I believe it was mentioned in WoR and that York was another such world.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wolflord on 02 February 2013, 15:58:00
To answer obliquely, "What do you require?"

Well the wolf players I'm GMing are hoping to get a portable factory to load on the dropships/jumpships they are hoping to get by trading their Circe enclave to the Ravens.

So far the two big divergences from canon in this campaign are that the Sharks didn't get called up for Tukkayyid (so your Touman would be in much better shape) and the 6 invader clans have been ordered by the Grand Council to relocate (except for their blood chapels) to the occupation zones and prepare them as a launchpad for Op Revival II by the Homeworld clans.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 02 February 2013, 16:25:35
Well the wolf players I'm GMing are hoping to get a portable factory to load on the dropships/jumpships they are hoping to get by trading their Circe enclave to the Ravens.

So far the two big divergences from canon in this campaign are that the Sharks didn't get called up for Tukkayyid (so your Touman would be in much better shape) and the 6 invader clans have been ordered by the Grand Council to relocate (except for their blood chapels) to the occupation zones and prepare them as a launchpad for Op Revival II by the Homeworld clans.

Ahhh.... that changes things.

Yeah, I'd trade a portable factory and a couple dropships for Paxon. Hell, I'd even throw in the JumpShips to transport them if they agree to letting us set up an enclave for trade purposes on one of your IS worlds like Nox.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wolflord on 02 February 2013, 16:33:33
Ahhh.... that changes things.

Yeah, I'd trade a portable factory and a couple dropships for Paxon. Hell, I'd even throw in the JumpShips to transport them if they agree to letting us set up an enclave for trade purposes on one of your IS worlds like Nox.

How about Kirchbach?(spelling?) Didn't Vlad nix a deal that would have turned Kirchbach into another Twycross in exchange for a discount on goods purchased from the sharks?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 02 February 2013, 16:46:34
How about Kirchbach?(spelling?) Didn't Vlad nix a deal that would have turned Kirchbach into another Twycross in exchange for a discount on goods purchased from the sharks?

Done... if you agree to allow us to produce and sell Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves to you (for Clan Wolf use only). It'll take a couple years for you to ramp up your own production in your OZ, you'll no doubt need the replacements, and it would jump start trade for us.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wolflord on 02 February 2013, 17:08:26
Done... if you agree to allow us to produce and sell Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves to you (for Clan Wolf use only). It'll take a couple years for you to ramp up your own production in your OZ, you'll no doubt need the replacements, and it would jump start trade for us.

Bargained well and Done..........the "not really" exclusivity of the Timber Wolf and the Dire Wolf is no use if we don't have enough of them in the first place.  :)

On a side deal what is the going rate for trading in Adders and Ice Ferrets for Storm Crows?  ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on 02 February 2013, 17:36:34
Might I ask, are you doing this campaign online, or irl? Because if it is online, I might be interested in joining.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wolflord on 02 February 2013, 17:56:32
IRL unfortunately, I tend to throw questions onto these boards to try to get a handle on issues I know/expect will come up as the campaign advances.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 02 February 2013, 18:11:39
I've noticed that it seems to be about half GM's and players here, if not more GM's.   Then again, like in my old group, all of us could DM/GM a game or three.  We used to flip duties around all the time until my one friend started putting together some really incredible campaigns, then he had the job full time and all was well for years.  :)   Mostly DnD and Beyond the Supernatural (ugh, Palladium is a bulky system) but also some BattleTech short campaigns that took a few months to end were thrown in from time to time, too.  Latter, the BT hardcore fans in the group put our own nights together.   Don't need eight to twelve people for BT anyway, it gets way too slow at times.  Four players is nice at the table for that, I've always felt.  But everyone's different. 

My bad, ramble on, ramble off. 

A new online group would be fun.  Less talky more daka daka with some roleplaying too  ;)   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: St.George on 03 February 2013, 04:16:50
IRL unfortunately, I tend to throw questions onto these boards to try to get a handle on issues I know/expect will come up as the campaign advances.

Amen my brothah'.  ;D   We call this locally (drum roll) "The question of the day" which starts a heated debait which takes 1-2 hours of arguing our points during our sunday games.  ::)

Try 2 GM's for your games Rebs,have one assist the other,taking up the slack for all the mindless stuff that players ask.I run a table with 5-6 just about every sunday,which use to be hell when I did it myself.Now more could play,,,most I've had on the table was 12,but make sure you have "time",thats the key I've found.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 05 February 2013, 16:20:19
Amen my brothah'.  ;D   We call this locally (drum roll) "The question of the day" which starts a heated debait which takes 1-2 hours of arguing our points during our sunday games.  ::)

Try 2 GM's for your games Rebs,have one assist the other,taking up the slack for all the mindless stuff that players ask.I run a table with 5-6 just about every sunday,which use to be hell when I did it myself.Now more could play,,,most I've had on the table was 12,but make sure you have "time",thats the key I've found.

Having 2 GMs sounds like the best idea I've ever heard. I'm stealing this for my group. That way the stallers, walking-questionnaires and mass looters will be able to go through the secondary GM rather than bogging down the entire campaign for hours on end.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 09 February 2013, 18:54:48
::Rises from the metaphorical burning wreckage::

Hard to get the full 12 to show up all at once anymore...  clearly, it was not a problem at one time, and I miss those days.  But I think 8 can still be mustered, and that would be great group for the GM and assistant GM setup. 

We used to do something similar for DnD.  I'd lose interest in playing sometimes, but fall back to a consulting role with my friend the DM, plus I'd run NPCs.  In a way that was more fun, because I was in on the enemy's plans and could see were the arc was headed.  That would then lead to more advice about how to keep everyone on track without making them feel like they're on a railroad.  Choices, even the most unpredictable ones, only need to be known and can be dealt with the next session - if not that night. 

We'll definitely have to try that out for BT.   Good call, George.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 10 February 2013, 01:21:55
There is one thing that occurred to me about the actions of the Adders and Horses (and Lions) during the Reavings; or rather, about the manner in which it was reported in the WoR sourcebook. According to that report (which, presumably, the Horse Khans themselves seemed not to overtly dispute, and the Lions wouldn't care to anyway), the less-than-hostile manner in which the Adders dealt with both sides of what is now the Horse/Lion divide is quite notable, certainly in contrast to how brutally the Adders dealt with all of the other Council of Six Clans on their way out of the Clan Homeworlds.

The point I'm trying to get at is this; if we as readers can pick up on this, what kind of message is it sending in-universe to the Shark/Foxes themselves? The data in the report is already pretty interesting from a Shark/Fox point of view, before one considers what kind of data they may have decided to leave out of the "official" report.

Would the Horses not find themselves as the Council of Six Clan with the most attention now being placed upon it by the Shark/Fox Watch?

(If we on this board can speculate about what kind of backroom deals were done between the Adders and Horses beyond those already laid out in WoR, or what it might mean regarding the Horses' potential role in the event of a renewed invasion, who is to say that Semi Kalasa hasn't done the same?)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 10 February 2013, 01:47:04
Sound reasoning. 

And I think I remember this being touched on elsewhere too, that the Hell's Horses certainly look like the most likely Council of Six Clan to betray the rest because of their Adder connection and the speculation that went with that.   That Adders did save the Homeworld trapped Horses from annihilation via trial or simple fact is cause for a lot of that.   They also looked the other way while the Horses moved the bulk of their forces to the IS.  Who is to say that the long-game minded Adders did not give the Horses their blessing so as to already possess a foothold at the rear of the IS Clan OZs that can be exploited during the next invasion. 



edit: On the other hand, appearances are and will always be a primary ingredient of misdirection.

And I would like to be surprised by what happens even more than have speculation turn out to be near the mark.  Being right is simply not as important as enjoying a well-told story.  :)   But that won't stop my speculation, I'm sure.  ;)

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 10 February 2013, 02:37:40
But then, even if the Horses tried to switch sides in the event of a new invasion, would they in a position to do so after 3145?

With the Horses now essentially coerced into backing Malvina Hazen's plays for Tharkad and Terra, would they be too far deep in the Falcons' machinations to be able to extract themselves should the time to flip arrive?

And given how poorly Malvina and her Mongol Doctrine would lkely be judged from a Homeworld Clan perspective, might the guilt by association be such that the Horses would now be treated by the Adders as equally irredeemable?

If so, the deal - whatever it might have been - may well be off.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 10 February 2013, 03:03:34
Could be.   :)   Or maybe there never was any more to the deal than what was reported. 

I agreed mostly with your first post in that we haven't received the whole story from Semi K, and that there is an Adder Horse connection of which we do not really know the full extent, not with certainty, at any rate. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 10 February 2013, 18:54:50
Could be.   :)   Or maybe there never was any more to the deal than what was reported. 

I agreed mostly with your first post in that we haven't received the whole story from Semi K, and that there is an Adder Horse connection of which we do not really know the full extent, not with certainty, at any rate.

I also agree, but the idea that the Horses are going to wait a half century to make some great betrayal just doesn't work for me. It's a deal that can't be upheld, and a secret that couldn't be kept even if it was.

I do think the Adders had an agenda. Put simply, they needed the Horses' cooperation to defeat the Burrocks. Going off into the Deep Periphery to chase down the Burrocks just wasn't on their agenda, and the Adders, when they made the deal, had no idea where or how extensive the problem was. Contracting the Horses let them keep their focus where it belonged. It closed off a potential avenue of retreat (what if the Burrocks had retreated to the Inner Sphere?), without the Adders having to "taint" themselves by chasing them into the IS. And if all those Adder abtkha the Horses netted were liberally salted with Watch agents, well, so much the better.

And, yes, I think the Sharks might have had something going with the Adders, too. After being "chastised" by the Adders and Vipers, the Sharks basically sat around in Clan space for several years before being given the boot. The battles they did fight actually didn't go half bad for them; and their second line was fighting the Vipers' front line IIRC. When they did get massacred, it was at Salonika (by the Burrocks, in a weird battle I've questioned before), and then at Vinton (by the Coyotes/Society).

The Sharks were on pretty good terms with all the clans that would survive. They were friendly rivals with the Adders, the two shared a strong mutual respect. They had active trade deals and were weakly allied with the Coyotes, Cloud Cobras, Blood Spirits, and Hell's Horses. The only clan that they didn't get along with were the Suckers Steel Vipers. Now, these weren't strong alliances, and any of these clans would have sold even a stronger ally out to survive the Wars of Reaving. But it does open another possible avenue of speculation.

Again, I'm not a fan of a "centuries of treachery" plot. It just doesn't seem possible, and none of the clans involved are the kind who would trade tangible concessions up front for some vaguely specified but very expensive favor deferred into the far-off future. I just don't believe it.

OTOH, the Sharks and Adders are both long-term thinkers. Some kind of long-term arrangement isn't beyond the realm of possibility, as long as it benefits both partners. The events as they happened might also be explained by a short-term arrangement during the war that gave the Sharks the breathing room they needed to move their entire clan (in exchange, presumably, for the Sharks not interfering with the Adders' strategy).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 12 February 2013, 02:38:29
The one thing is, it was more than just a few concessions.  The Adders let the Horses go on to the IS in spite of the fact that when they found others trying to do the same thing, they joined the beatdown squad with gusto.  Just ask the Snow Ravens.   And they weren't about to let the Burrocks hook up with all the bandits that hang on the fringes of the near periphery.   The Horses even trialed and won many Adders as abtakha.     

But then in the Homewords, when others were calling for Annihilation or Absorption of the Horses remaining there, they saved them from that fate, by allowing them to form a new Clan.   This allowed them to retain their lives and identity, though it was altered in a way to disassociate them from the others who had left long before.   This was a major favor.   

The Horses in the IS may or may not plan to honor the Adders should they return.  But I think at the very least, the one Clan that will not have to worry about retribution as much as the others is the Hell's Horses.  At least that. 

But as we say, its just speculation on the part of fans who only know what we have been allowed to know and in ways that can leave a good bit of doubt regarding veracity and accuracy and even the completeness on the part of the one who complied the info.  Semi Kalasa herself may not even know the whole truth about many of the things in her report.  She had to rely on second hand reports for much of that info.   If some of those sources gained their knowledge first-hand that is.  Maybe they had to rely on reports of others, or notes from dead operatives and the like - then it would be third and maybe fourth-hand knowledge.  I'm sure I don't have to break down what kind of problems that could cause.  And certainly, in many cases, inaccuracies caused by this type of information gathering are beyond her control.   But couple them with any Fox Shark spin or slant, and we're left with more questions than answers. 

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 12 February 2013, 09:18:55
The 'favor' of allowing the Horses in the Homeworlds to form a new clan also benefited the Star Adders greatly.  It gave them an ally in the Grand Council that they knew they could rely on.  Even in WoR:S the Lions are still a solid ally in the Grand Council on matters that are important to the Adders.

The Adders have benefited from the arrangement and I would not think that anything else was 'owed' to them due to it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 12 February 2013, 12:38:02
The 'favor' of allowing the Horses in the Homeworlds to form a new clan also benefited the Star Adders greatly.  It gave them an ally in the Grand Council that they knew they could rely on.  Even in WoR:S the Lions are still a solid ally in the Grand Council on matters that are important to the Adders.

The Adders have benefited from the arrangement and I would not think that anything else was 'owed' to them due to it.

This probably has drifted into fodder for the Star Adder thread. But the way they played the mathematics of the Grand Council in Wars of Reaving was simply masterful.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 12 February 2013, 13:20:56
This probably has drifted into fodder for the Star Adder thread. But the way they played the mathematics of the Grand Council in Wars of Reaving was simply masterful.

Yeah....tell me about it. I keep really hoping that there is something wrong in the reports, since...well..they are in-universe.
How good is the Diamond Shark Watch supposed to be? On a scale of Homeworlds Clan(worst) to Jade Falcon (Best)?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 12 February 2013, 13:39:23
Well, the Falcons like to say they are the best (surprise, surprise...), and certainly, they are good.

But if someone truly had "the Best" Clan Watch operation, they would be ill-served by actually bragging about it.  That's my opinion, of course.  But it is true. 

Certainly, the scope of the Wars of Reaving as a document shows that the Shark Watch is pretty extensive.  They do go anywhere, after all. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GhostBear on 12 February 2013, 14:20:06
Yeah....tell me about it. I keep really hoping that there is something wrong in the reports, since...well..they are in-universe.
How good is the Diamond Shark Watch supposed to be? On a scale of Homeworlds Clan(worst) to Jade Falcon (Best)?

At this point, the Shark Watch is equivalent in ability to the LIC and could probably rival the ISF in operational skills.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Rainbow 6 on 12 February 2013, 14:33:07
So pretty good then.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 12 February 2013, 23:32:47
At this point, the Shark Watch is equivalent in ability to the LIC and could probably rival the ISF in operational skills.

Interesting. How did they learn to be that good? I usually think that only the Jade Falcon Watch was any good of the Clans,
the rest being only slightly better then (modern history) SAFE  (SAFE in the Age of War seemed to be pretty competent).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 13 February 2013, 00:27:03
Interesting. How did they learn to be that good? I usually think that only the Jade Falcon Watch was any good of the Clans,
the rest being only slightly better then (modern history) SAFE  (SAFE in the Age of War seemed to be pretty competent).

WoR and ISP3 both mention this.

In FM:WC, the Sharks bragged about having the best intelligence branch in the clans, with the possible exception of the Star Adders. In FM:CC, the Star Adders had a dedicated intelligence branch, supervised by front-line personnel, and similarly bragged about its effectiveness. Both clans had this pretty much from the beginning (though other clans considered it dezgra). Some credit for the Sharks goes to Semi Kalasa, who is a brilliant spymaster first and a Loremaster fifth or sixth, but it's always been there.

Clan intelligence operations have always been a bit of an oxymoron. But each supplement seems to show far greater intelligence apparatus than the ones before. I can't tell how much of this represents upgrades made in the wake of Operation Revival, and how much of it has always been there but not talked about, revealed slowly over time.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 13 February 2013, 02:21:15
Wellspring, one thing I find interesting is that, it seems, that the Loremasters always seem to be the heads of the Watch.
I wonder why that is?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 13 February 2013, 03:07:32
At this point, the Shark Watch is equivalent in ability to the LIC and could probably rival the ISF in operational skills.


So pretty good then.

It would be interesting to see how the Clan Watches stack up against one another.  The Jade Falcons developed a good Watch, considering they were loath to actually implement such a thing according to Kael Pershaw's remarks in Falcon Guard.  The Sharks obviously have some good stuff going for their efforts as well. 

I wonder about the Wolf Watch.  Star Colonel Ramil Kerensky was a great character for his brief shining moments, pulling off the greatest heist in BT (Clan) lore. Or is that Kerensky Fiat?  ;D   I imagine the Shark Watch is better, but the spy apparatus of the Clans is pretty interesting considering their vastly different approaches to it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 13 February 2013, 03:18:26
Interesting. How did they learn to be that good? I usually think that only the Jade Falcon Watch was any good of the Clans,
the rest being only slightly better then (modern history) SAFE  (SAFE in the Age of War seemed to be pretty competent).

Where most Clans staffed their Watch with members of the warrior caste (many of who are considered undesirables), the Diamond Shark's Watch is dominated by their merchant caste who look beyond simple immediate gains.  They frequently offered secondary targets to the warrior caste that can give the Clan a net gain even if they lose the main battle or at least mitigate the defeat.  In addition, until the Wars of Reaving, they controlled the Chatterweb which provided them with invaluable information over the years.

As far as I am aware Clan Wolf's watch was considered superior to Clan Jade Falcon's, who had a hard time accepting the dishonorable nature of the Watch.  Even after being forced to recognize the necessity of the Watch, the Jade Falcons obstructed their efforts by strictly limiting "underhanded" covert operations.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wolflord on 13 February 2013, 04:07:27
I seem to recall that in their early days Falcon watch were supposed to be better at analysis and wolf watch were supposed to be better at the James Bond stuff
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 13 February 2013, 11:28:38
Wellspring, one thing I find interesting is that, it seems, that the Loremasters always seem to be the heads of the Watch.
I wonder why that is?
In some cases I would put it to the Loremaster maybe not having much else to do. In most cases the Loremaster is outside of the typical chain of command. In some clans the Loremaster commands a cluster or a galaxy, in others they have a smaller honor guard. This makes it easier to oversee the resources of the Watch without the concerns of overseeing a regular front or second-line combat unit. But most importantly, the Loremaster is tasked with maintaining the traditions and honor of the Clan. So all this espionage-type stuff many would see is a violation of Clan honor, but if the Loremaster is the one giving the orders and they're the one saying it's ok, that probably makes it easier on the conscious of the more hidebound warriors assigned to the Watch or assigned to a mission for the Watch.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 13 February 2013, 13:35:16
Wellspring, one thing I find interesting is that, it seems, that the Loremasters always seem to be the heads of the Watch.
I wonder why that is?

Not ignoring you Mara, it's just that this answer is better than anything I could have thought up:

In some cases I would put it to the Loremaster maybe not having much else to do. In most cases the Loremaster is outside of the typical chain of command. In some clans the Loremaster commands a cluster or a galaxy, in others they have a smaller honor guard. This makes it easier to oversee the resources of the Watch without the concerns of overseeing a regular front or second-line combat unit. But most importantly, the Loremaster is tasked with maintaining the traditions and honor of the Clan. So all this espionage-type stuff many would see is a violation of Clan honor, but if the Loremaster is the one giving the orders and they're the one saying it's ok, that probably makes it easier on the conscious of the more hidebound warriors assigned to the Watch or assigned to a mission for the Watch.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 14 February 2013, 14:14:48
A question, if I may trouble you good people: Why are the Sharks/Foxes the merchant clan?  We all know they are, but philosophically, what good does it do you as individuals, or as a group, to amass wealth in what is, effectively, a communist economy?  Is it just a matter of wealth being another form of power, do y'all have a different take on individuals amassing wealth, perhaps something else?  It just seems odd to have a clan so enamored of such capitalist activity in the more-or-less communist clans.  (No comparison to real world nations is intended, etc etc, I just don't have a better word for clan economies than 'communist')
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 14 February 2013, 14:17:29
Is it just a matter of wealth being another form of power

Yes. Though the Sharks/Foxes don't care about wealth, per se. It's the power that comes from economic dominance that is the big deal.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 14 February 2013, 14:28:19
A question, if I may trouble you good people: Why are the Sharks/Foxes the merchant clan?  We all know they are, but philosophically, what good does it do you as individuals, or as a group, to amass wealth in what is, effectively, a communist economy?  Is it just a matter of wealth being another form of power, do y'all have a different take on individuals amassing wealth, perhaps something else?  It just seems odd to have a clan so enamored of such capitalist activity in the more-or-less communist clans.  (No comparison to real world nations is intended, etc etc, I just don't have a better word for clan economies than 'communist')

Hey ARW

Just my opinion here...   Even in the midst of many planned economies intermingling, like in the Homeworlds, there is wealth to be obtained through shrewd trading, even if the rest of the Clans willfully ignore that fact.  That may in fact make it easier for the Shark/Foxes - the only competitors mentioned in the various sources are the Nova Cat with their Futures Trading system that they worked out mentioned in Invading Clans (but not really expounded upon), and the Jade Falcon bankers (spoken of in FM: Crusader Clans and some other sources). 

The wealth generated through trading seems to go to the Clan itself, though individuals who do well also seem to be rewarded with a comfortable existence.  Said wealth reinvested in the Clan is used toward future growth.  It was something worked out by Karen Nagasawa back in the time of Nicholas Kerensky.  And because she used to write many of his speeches, anything she says is held with a similar level of respect as the words of the Founder (edit: to the Shark Foxes, that is).

IIRC, the sources make mention of the fact that many other Clans despised the Shark Foxes for this, but he (or she) who can win the Trial can dictate their own path...   as long as folks don't go all Wolverine about it, so to speak.

Just musing, would like to see if others had some additional thoughts or counter-theories.

Yes. Though the Sharks/Foxes don't care about wealth, per se. It's the power that comes from economic dominance that is the big deal.

That's what I was thinking too.   O0  Wealth is gained by the Clan, not the individual, though each individual strives to enrich the Clan. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 14 February 2013, 16:20:57
That's about what I figured, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 14 February 2013, 17:44:35
That's about what I figured, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

I've said this before, but it's applicable here. We normally think of the Sharks as Warriors who think like merchants. But it's even more true that their Merchants think like warriors.

In other clans, the Merchants' somewhat distasteful role is to procure the supplies necessary to support their warrior caste. They're inward-focused. But Diamond Shark merchants are more invested in the outcome of their conflicts. They're highly competitive and take an active role in strategy and planning. Many are former warriors themselves, and some even have bloodnames (and therefore seats on the clan councils).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 14 February 2013, 17:54:54
I've said this before, but it's applicable here. We normally think of the Sharks as Warriors who think like merchants. But it's even more true that their Merchants think like warriors.

In other clans, the Merchants' somewhat distasteful role is to procure the supplies necessary to support their warrior caste. They're inward-focused. But Diamond Shark merchants are more invested in the outcome of their conflicts. They're highly competitive and take an active role in strategy and planning. Many are former warriors themselves, and some even have bloodnames (and therefore seats on the clan councils).

Agreed.   Their interactions usually indicate a "commerce as warfare" mindset when dealing with other Clans.

They have outlived most of their enemies, which also speaks for itself.  :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 20 February 2013, 17:11:51
Within all the lower castes, there are "grades", the better you perform, the higher your grade. The higher your grade, the better life you have, better accommodations, more personal belongings. Clan merchants may not be sitting on personal fortunes of millions or billions of C-Bills, but the Clan is supporting a lavish lifestyle (comparatively speaking, by Clan standards). So if a Clan business man cuts a good deal, that's the benefit, maybe you go up a grade. Maybe you get that promotion that takes up higher among the caste hierarchy. Maybe you get a nice prestigious job close to the Merchant Factor's office.

Within the Clans, you still have the small time business man, peddling goods, barely scraping by, under everyone else's heel. Then you have the successful executive with the office and his own personal ground car. You acquire power. Even in a capitalist society, some people would rather have power over wealth.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 20 February 2013, 19:55:42
Within all the lower castes, there are "grades", the better you perform, the higher your grade. The higher your grade, the better life you have, better accommodations, more personal belongings. Clan merchants may not be sitting on personal fortunes of millions or billions of C-Bills, but the Clan is supporting a lavish lifestyle (comparatively speaking, by Clan standards). So if a Clan business man cuts a good deal, that's the benefit, maybe you go up a grade. Maybe you get that promotion that takes up higher among the caste hierarchy. Maybe you get a nice prestigious job close to the Merchant Factor's office.

Within the Clans, you still have the small time business man, peddling goods, barely scraping by, under everyone else's heel. Then you have the successful executive with the office and his own personal ground car. You acquire power. Even in a capitalist society, some people would rather have power over wealth.

Good points!

And in command economies, the powerful often are quite modestly compensated on paper, but have sometimes ridiculously lavish lifestyles when you count all the perqs that come with their position. Wealth is just another form of power-- not even the most potent one.

I've always seen the primary Shark viewpoint, though, as being about strategy. Their closest counterpart (by both clans' admission) is the Star Adders. It's just the Sharks focus on logistics and production, while the Adders focus on military and political strategy. So their merchants aren't out for themselves (or, rather, any more out for themselves than in other clans), it's that the caste as a whole sees themselves as fighting an economic war with the other clans.

I think they're also a little more flexible about doling out incentives to reward success. Call it "intelligent allocation of resources", call it "a betrayal of the Clan Way". Maybe just call it "The Clan Way with Diamond Shark characteristics". Whatever you call it doesn't matter... I mean, who cares if the cat is black or white-- just so long as it hunts mice, right?

But we'd be crazy not to see that personal self-interest is always a trump card. The trick is aligning your incentives so that personal selfishness only advances the clan's goals. Every leader in history has wrestled with this problem-- Nicholas Kerensky explicitly designed the clans with this problem in mind-- and nobody has solved it yet, including the Founder.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Moonsword on 20 February 2013, 19:58:53
Alright, ladies and gentlemen, let's not get into real world issues here.  Stick to the universe with the big stompy robots.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 20 February 2013, 22:06:51
The SL report on the Clan Homeworlds and how their economy works in Wars of Reaving, pages 26-27, does a fantastic job of explaining how in the Clan Homeworlds, keeping everything running smoothly is a delicate balance, because most enclaves are specialized and not self-sufficient. They talk about mastering this balancing act is difficult and that some Clans are just managing it month-to-month, living on the razor's edge of not having enough of one thing, or too much of another. The report notes that any type of disruption can cripple a Clan. The Diamond Sharks are described as the masters of this system, producing enough for their Clan and still more to use as bargaining chips for other Clans.

The homeworlds fell off the Razor's edge during the Society Revolt and the Wars of Reaving.

When I read those two pages in Wars of Reaving, it really helped me to understand what makes the Sharks stand out from the crowd on the economic front by understanding the landscape better.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GhostBear on 20 February 2013, 23:09:00
When I read those two pages in Wars of Reaving, it really helped me to understand what makes the Sharks stand out from the crowd on the economic front by understanding the landscape better.

That section was something I made sure remained in the book, partly because it had never really been described before, and partly because understanding the balance was crucial to seeing how disastrous the coming war was going to be.

That small section has gotten me more kudos from non-Clan fans than anything else in there.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 21 February 2013, 00:03:17
The SL report on the Clan Homeworlds and how their economy works in Wars of Reaving, pages 26-27, does a fantastic job of explaining how in the Clan Homeworlds, keeping everything running smoothly is a delicate balance, because most enclaves are specialized and not self-sufficient.

Ghostbear, I'm embarrassed to say that I've never thanked you for those two pages either, but I'm doing it now. Insanely great that WoR showed how the system worked (and how sometimes it almost didn't) before tearing the whole thing apart and putting it back together again.

They talk about mastering this balancing act is difficult and that some Clans are just managing it month-to-month, living on the razor's edge of not having enough of one thing, or too much of another. The report notes that any type of disruption can cripple a Clan. The Diamond Sharks are described as the masters of this system, producing enough for their Clan and still more to use as bargaining chips for other Clans.

And then you've got the Smoke Jaguars way over on the other end of the scale. They habitually failed this balancing act because, well, they acted like Smoke Jaguars. So they depended on Trials of Possession to fill in the gaps and keep things rolling. And when those failed, the Sharks were lurking nearby ready to take advantage of the situation by selling them whatever they needed at piratical prices. Most clans probably ran into this problem at one point or another.

Apparently, the Cobras plan on filling in this niche now that the Sharks have migrated to the IS.

I wonder how long the Jaguars could have survived post-Revival even if there hadn't been an Annihilation. With their elite clusters all tied up in the Inner Sphere, and their economy stretched to the breaking point by the demands of the war effort, might they have melted down on their own? A bad string of luck in Trials of Possession, and suddenly your stream of replacement war material is interrupted, and suddenly your ability to support your economy through what is essentially ritual piracy is shattered.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 21 February 2013, 00:09:32
That section was something I made sure remained in the book, partly because it had never really been described before, and partly because understanding the balance was crucial to seeing how disastrous the coming war was going to be.

That small section has gotten me more kudos from non-Clan fans than anything else in there.

Frankly? That one section makes the clan economic and trial system make SENSE to those who are not Clan Players,
and even puts it into a perspective for those who are Clan players.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 21 February 2013, 22:47:53
Absolutely.  I became more of a Shark Fox fan because of that description.  It wasn't just a hazy notion of semi-barbaric commerce of some kind anymore. 

And the Odyssey of Lorenzo.   O0



Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 22 February 2013, 12:33:38
And the Odyssey of Lorenzo.   O0

That man rocks, and needs his own thread of appreciation.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 23 February 2013, 03:19:25
Remind me of Lorenzo.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 23 February 2013, 03:38:35
He was the Diamond Shark Merchant Factor who got stuck in the Home Worlds and had to sneak out after witnessing the destruction at Barcella and Vinton and all the other fresh ruins.   

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 23 February 2013, 12:15:16
He was the Diamond Shark Merchant Factor who got stuck in the Home Worlds and had to sneak out after witnessing the destruction at Barcella and Vinton and all the other fresh ruins.

He wheeled and dealed his way from the ruins of an underwater city on Vinton, the last surviving Diamond Shark outpost, to a JumpShip and a dropship with supplies, so his team could limp out of clan space. Somehow they ended up in the Chainlaine Isles a year later with a small group of JumpShips, DropShips, data on the hidden Blood Spirit colonies, and a DropShip loaded with advanced Protomech tech stolen from the Society. On his way back to an IS Diamond Shark outpost, he cut several more long-term deals with the Horses.

The story's in WoR. Needless to say, Lorenzo rocks.

(PS: An oddity of the Diamond Shark retirement system. I got the impression from the book that several retired warriors who'd been reactivated at the very end were spared by claiming to their captors (mostly Blood spirits) that they were merchants-- strictly speaking true but misleading-- and therefore not subject to the Reavings. The supplement goes out of its way several times to stress that the Sharks knew about the secret BS worlds very early on.)

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 23 February 2013, 19:43:35
Do we know any details about what happened on Nykvarn? Specifically what the Twelfth and Twenty-second Dieron Regulars did to enrage the Diamond Sharks to retaliate by nearly annihilating both regiments (there is mention of the massacre of members of the DS lower castes).  Oh and on that note when did this take place?  According to FR:DCMS, it was mid-3070, while FR:Clans puts it in 3075.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 26 February 2013, 23:13:25
has there been any word on whether or not the colour schemes used for each Diamond Shark Galaxy remain the same when they were (and will be) Sea Fox units?

If they were to be changed, I wonder if Field Manual: 3145 might give some guidance as to how their schemes look like once they go back to being Sea Foxes... or if any of those schemes matched the ones which the Clan originally used prior to becoming Diamond Sharks in the first place.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 26 February 2013, 23:44:17
has there been any word on whether or not the colour schemes used for each Diamond Shark Galaxy remain the same when they were (and will be) Sea Fox units?

If they were to be changed, I wonder if Field Manual: 3145 might give some guidance as to how their schemes look like once they go back to being Sea Foxes... or if any of those schemes matched the ones which the Clan originally used prior to becoming Diamond Sharks in the first place.

If not in the upcoming 3145 FM, then it will be in associated Field Reports that will follow, I would imagine. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 26 February 2013, 23:46:39
has there been any word on whether or not the colour schemes used for each Diamond Shark Galaxy remain the same when they were (and will be) Sea Fox units?

If they were to be changed, I wonder if Field Manual: 3145 might give some guidance as to how their schemes look like once they go back to being Sea Foxes... or if any of those schemes matched the ones which the Clan originally used prior to becoming Diamond Sharks in the first place.

Or if any of the Galaxies retain their Diamond Shark iconography. Sigma Galaxy fought a Trial of Refusal to retain the name "Fox's Whelps" and retain some Fox symbolism (though their keshik lost a ToR to remain a keshik and became a skate instead). FM:WC suggests that the costume changes were minimal in the first change-- the uniforms seem to drift between cheesy and cool depending on the author. Would love to see some nice-looking uniforms.

Not a DA expert by any means but if the symbol I see floating around is correct, it means they dropped the "Strength, Skill, Nobility" tri-arrow which dates back to Fox days.

Be glad when the change comes. I always preferred them as Foxes than as Sharks. ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 26 February 2013, 23:53:34
I was just thinking...  The way the Shark Foxes are going, there's potential for lots of AU situations like the Ghost Bears and Omega Galaxy to occur.  Just thinking about that, or splinter Clans forming from a khanate or aimag.

They would lose the protection of the mother Clan, likely, the situation won't be amicable ("not peacetech" comes echoing to mind).  But the Clan becomes more and more dispersed, so bringing force to bear is only possible on a relatively large scale in a few areas of the IS where any ground based operations are, because those are always well-defended it seems and would have the means to dispatch enough forces to try to deal with the problem.  (not counting any secret places they can strike from.  :)  )
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 27 February 2013, 00:44:51
If not in the upcoming 3145 FM, then it will be in associated Field Reports that will follow, I would imagine.

What "associated Field Reports that will follow"? Why would there be Field Reports following a Field Manual?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 27 February 2013, 02:17:31
What "associated Field Reports that will follow"? Why would there be Field Reports following a Field Manual?

Well, I would not know for sure.  It was more of hopeful speculation that maybe there would be associated additional products,  as often happens.  Unless everything is covered, of course.   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 27 February 2013, 09:43:51
has there been any word on whether or not the colour schemes used for each Diamond Shark Galaxy remain the same when they were (and will be) Sea Fox units?
Not to familiar with current Diamond Shark patterns, but there were a couple Sea Fox units released for MW:DA. If that gets used at all, you'll be seeing blue-green (turquoise?) metallic paint jobs.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 27 February 2013, 12:40:50
I was just thinking...  The way the Shark Foxes are going, there's potential for lots of AU situations like the Ghost Bears and Omega Galaxy to occur.  Just thinking about that, or splinter Clans forming from a khanate or aimag.

They would lose the protection of the mother Clan, likely, the situation won't be amicable ("not peacetech" comes echoing to mind).  But the Clan becomes more and more dispersed, so bringing force to bear is only possible on a relatively large scale in a few areas of the IS where any ground based operations are, because those are always well-defended it seems and would have the means to dispatch enough forces to try to deal with the problem.  (not counting any secret places they can strike from.  :)  )

I don't think you'll see splinter factions all that often. One of the strengths of the aimag approach is that you are tied into the entire Shark commerce network-- which stretches across the inner sphere and beyond. That gives you reach and the potential for profits far, far exceeding what you can get on your own. Don't think of the 10% the khanates pay as a tithe or tax, think of it as a membership fee. Operating alone is possible, but far less profitable.

More importantly, what's the upside to going rogue? The fact that, in theory, they answer to their clan council and khan doesn't change the day to day autonomy they get. You're already operating largely alone most of the time, so the top leaders already have considerable authority to do things their way. And your line warriors aren't going to put up with you cutting them off from their own influence in the clan council.

I can see individual saKhans or ovKhans trying to break away over personal issues, but their own warriors and merchants aren't likely to go along with it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 27 February 2013, 12:57:15
"Hunters of the Deep" actually covers such an occurrence. And it goes poorly for the renegade.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 27 February 2013, 13:10:56
"Hunters of the Deep" actually covers such an occurrence. And it goes poorly for the renegade.

Thanks! I'm not really up on DA-era Foxlore, so I'm to some extent talking out my ammo bin here.

I was looking on sarna and noticed the titles. So we have Aimags (clusters), operating from CargoShips and lead by an ovKhan. A group of Aimags form a Khanate (galaxy), operating from ArcShips and run by a saKhan.

And the Sea Foxes as a whole are run by an "ilKhan"? I'm assuming the wiki is accurate; i have no way of knowing and would love for someone who knows something to speak up. Normally the senior Khan is the kaKhan (though the term is archaic).

We've been speculating about who the ilClan would be (from the upcoming rumored supplement), and even I thought the foxes were a long shot. Might they be the ilClan? With their khan being officially the ilKhan of the Clans, and the Sea Foxes responsible for running all the non-clan-specific bureaucracy and administration? They'd hardly be the clan of clans like the Falcons or Wolves, but their claim to a title like that has to come from somewhere or they'd be buried in Trials of Grievance. Claiming inflated titles isn't really the Sea Fox way.

Anyway, like I've already said twice. I have no idea about Dark Age Foxes, so could someone who knows something tell me if this is ridiculous or possible?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 27 February 2013, 13:32:55
Not to familiar with current Diamond Shark patterns

Camo Specs Online (http://camospecs.com/Faction.asp?ID=33) has entries from Field Manual: Warden Clans posted for various Diamond Shark Galaxies.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 27 February 2013, 13:42:10
Sarna is wrong.  They're ruled by a Khan who runs the ilKhanate.  There are about 5 saKhans (who run Khanates) and then numerous ovKhans which is now an official rank instead of a term of respect (they run the Aimags).

The Khanates and Aimags seem to have replaced Galaxy's and Clusters for the most part.  But we'll know more once ER:3145 comes out.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 27 February 2013, 14:13:03
Camo Specs Online (http://camospecs.com/Faction.asp?ID=33) has entries from Field Manual: Warden Clans posted for various Diamond Shark Galaxies.
hmm. No metallic paint there.
I actually do like that DA color scheme, it's fairly striking, so I hope at least one of the fleets adopts it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: truegrit on 27 February 2013, 14:25:11
Or if any of the Galaxies retain their Diamond Shark iconography. Sigma Galaxy fought a Trial of Refusal to retain the name "Fox's Whelps" and retain some Fox symbolism (though their keshik lost a ToR to remain a keshik and became a skate instead).

Based on the Tiburon, I think the Sea Foxes have no problem with acknowledging their stint as the Diamond Sharks.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 27 February 2013, 18:44:23
Even with all that autonomy, sometimes people just want more.  And besides, the Bears have such close knit bonds, yet Omega is standing in dissent, though from what I understand, they are not in full rebellion. 

Granted, the situation that Omega is in is far different.  I just figured if one Clan unit, now away from the Homeworlds, can begin to question the Clan's system (in any way; the Foxes and Bears have very different concerns and outlooks), then others might do so as well.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 27 February 2013, 18:58:13
Sarna is wrong.  They're ruled by a Khan who runs the ilKhanate.  There are about 5 saKhans (who run Khanates) and then numerous ovKhans which is now an official rank instead of a term of respect (they run the Aimags).

The Khanates and Aimags seem to have replaced Galaxy's and Clusters for the most part.  But we'll know more once ER:3145 comes out.

Ahhh, cool thanks.

BTW, funny and appropriate that the Sea Foxes have essentially adopted an M-form organizational structure. Very 80's but also very Foxy. ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: foxbat on 28 February 2013, 03:45:03
hmm. No metallic paint there.
I actually do like that DA color scheme, it's fairly striking, so I hope at least one of the fleets adopts it.

Actually, you could go with Lambda Spina :

Quote
Lambda Spina has adopted a blue and silver paint scheme.

We've given a blue dominance on CSO as of now, but technically, I'd see nothing wrong with an interpretation with more silver.  ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 28 February 2013, 08:41:55
Actually, you could go with Lambda Spina :

We've given a blue dominance on CSO as of now, but technically, I'd see nothing wrong with an interpretation with more silver.  ;)
Maybe, but that's more a 'two seperate colors' listing.
The DA Sea Foxes were a bright metallic blue-green.

Although, I did notice one of the galaxies had 'irridescent' effects. That could work.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: truegrit on 28 February 2013, 15:30:49
Maybe, but that's more a 'two seperate colors' listing.
The DA Sea Foxes were a bright metallic blue-green.

Although, I did notice one of the galaxies had 'irridescent' effects. That could work.

Yeah, I also feel like Rho Spina seems the be the easiest to interpret into the MWDA mini colors.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 05 April 2013, 22:06:36
Well guys, we're officially 100% Foxy.

Thoughts on the new stuff?

We're selling a lot of good, high quality gear!! Glad to see the factories are still churnin' away. I'm not sure what to make of our new leadership though...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: SteveRestless on 06 April 2013, 19:34:58
I have to ask you guys this. Are you selling the Mad Cat Mk IV like a 21st Century Earth Cellphone Company? where it costs about 92 million cbills, but you'll let it go for the 24m cbill price tag of a Timber Wolf if we sign a 10 year maintenance contract with the Sea Foxes?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gray Jaguar on 06 April 2013, 19:38:15
I have to ask you guys this. Are you selling the Mad Cat Mk IV like a 21st Century Earth Cellphone Company? where it costs about 92 million cbills, but you'll let it go for the 24m cbill price tag of a Timber Wolf if we sign a 10 year maintenance contract with the Sea Foxes?

Don't give them ideas...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: SteveRestless on 06 April 2013, 19:48:44
Don't give them ideas...

They are SharkFoxes. Theres no way I thought of that before them.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 06 April 2013, 19:49:38
Don't give them ideas...

Too late!! :D :D :D

Yeah my jaw dropped at some of the possible price tags. Either XXL engines, ferro-lamellor and all the newfangled weapons have gotten a price drop, or we're getting filthy rich. And if people want to fork over the cash for this kind of stuff, well, who am I to tell them that they're wrong?

If they cost as much as they normally would, it creates an even greater divide between what the line armies of the Inner Sphere can field, and what Mercs can wield.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 06 April 2013, 19:50:03
Oh crap gotta change my sig now that we're officially in a new era.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gray Jaguar on 06 April 2013, 19:52:15
Oh crap gotta change my sig now that we're officially in a new era.

Change it to what?  Clan Sea Fox, Om nom nom nom nom?  or Mmmmmmm.... Inner Sphere's money (said in Cartman's voice).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 06 April 2013, 19:57:35
Change it to what?  Clan Sea Fox, Om nom nom nom nom?  or Mmmmmmm.... Inner Sphere's money (said in Cartman's voice).

Just had to slightly modify my disclaimer, replacing all instances of Diamond Shark with Sea Fox. Don't want those vict- err, those customers exploiting any loopholes now, do we?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: DarkISI on 06 April 2013, 20:22:37
If they cost as much as they normally would, it creates an even greater divide between what the line armies of the Inner Sphere can field, and what Mercs can wield.

Well, it's quite simple, really.
If you have money, you get a Vulture Mk. IV or a Mad Cat Mk. IV. If you have no money, you get a self exploding Stalking Spider II. I think that's fair :D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Diamondshark on 06 April 2013, 21:03:29
So my question is this: how are Fox military assets distributed among the Aimags, and what would their touman actually DO, since they're all out to sell you Mad Cat IVs now?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 06 April 2013, 21:14:51
Well, part of the Navy kept Regulus from reinforcing Atreus.  They patrol the Clan Protectorate, and since the Spirit Cats are rebuilding, likely they garrison the other Protectorate worlds from enclaves.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ABADDON on 06 April 2013, 21:21:51
I think I know why you guys are putting XXL engines on everything know. While pretending to strengthen the resiliency of the units you offer with Ferror-Lamellor armor, in fact they are actually a lot easier to destroy because of the XXL engines. BUT destroyed units automatically create further demand for new units.
Genius.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gray Jaguar on 06 April 2013, 21:25:30
I think I know why you guys are putting XXL engines on everything know. While pretending to strengthen the resiliency of the units you offer with Ferror-Lamellor armor, in fact they are actually a lot easier to destroy because of the XXL engines. BUT destroyed units automatically create further demand for new units.
Genius.

This is why I can't be a Lyran in charge of procurement.  They would just make it a 100 Tons and then I'd buy it while they sniggered behind my back at their profit and my future dependence.  Well Bargained and Done indeed.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ABADDON on 06 April 2013, 21:41:37
I would rather have us stick to domestic armament products than buying up all those fancy looking Fox mechs anyways. :P
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 06 April 2013, 21:58:20
I think I know why you guys are putting XXL engines on everything know. While pretending to strengthen the resiliency of the units you offer with Ferror-Lamellor armor, in fact they are actually a lot easier to destroy because of the XXL engines. BUT destroyed units automatically create further demand for new units.
Genius.


Shhh!!!!!!!


Yeah not a fan of XXL. However, it's interesting, I think we're going to be seeing the Foxes turning into an Aerospace-focused clan (like the Cobras and Ravens). It'll be cool to watch that unfold and see how it changes them.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 06 April 2013, 22:33:41
So my question is this: how are Fox military assets distributed among the Aimags, and what would their touman actually DO, since they're all out to sell you Mad Cat IVs now?

Some rough equivalencies to make it easier for other Clanners to understand. Khanates/Aimags can field fewer/more units depending on the situation.

Khanate = Galaxy
     lead by a saKhan = saKhan/Galaxy Commander mix
Aimag = Cluster
     lead by a ovKhan = Star Colonel

The Sea Fox touman is still fielded in a mostly defensive role. They are there to make sure the Sharks aren't ripped off, and to protect Shark assets from raiders and other undesirables. If a planet/faction does fleece the Sharks, the touman can quickly retaliate (see: Fox actions against the Wolves in 3097).

However, the touman can also be used in an offensive capacity, as a means of securing resources that benefit the Clan as a whole. This can include raw materials, bondsmen, equipment and enclaves. A good example of this would be on Marik in 3137.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gray Jaguar on 07 April 2013, 13:48:19
I had a strange thought.  With the fact that the Sea Foxes are using a C-Bill equivalence in the form of a Fox Credit. could it be possible they will end up being the new ComStar?  I wonder if with their Clan Technicians they could end up being the ones to bring communications back to the Inner Sphere.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 07 April 2013, 14:05:16
I had a strange thought.  With the fact that the Sea Foxes are using a C-Bill equivalence in the form of a Fox Credit. could it be possible they will end up being the new ComStar?  I wonder if with their Clan Technicians they could end up being the ones to bring communications back to the Inner Sphere.

Will they? Who knows? Should they? Absolutely! Conquering planets and pacifying occupation zones isn't their thing.

From a metaplot perspective, either they replace ComStar (which after the WoB I can't imagine is a hard sell to everyone else), or they are a competitor.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 07 April 2013, 14:12:20
Will they? Who knows? Should they? Absolutely! Conquering planets and pacifying occupation zones isn't their thing.

From a metaplot perspective, either they replace ComStar (which after the WoB I can't imagine is a hard sell to everyone else), or they are a competitor.

They already are a damned good competitor, with all of their Aimags floating around the sphere gathering, using and selling information.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 07 April 2013, 14:16:07
They already are a damned good competitor, with all of their Aimags floating around the sphere gathering, using and selling information.

And buying up ComStar's assets in at least one state.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 07 April 2013, 14:55:21
I've got to admit that I didn't like Clan Diamond Shark. Not a shark person. So it wasn't until Golden Century that I took a good look at the Sea Foxes.

Decided I loved how strategic they are and decided that I'd finally found my real faction. So then I just had to come to grips with the Diamond Sharks being completely terrible during operation revival.

But I love the idea of Warrior Merchants. Not because I'm in love with the idea of merchants but just because the whole faction has strategy pounded into them. I like how cunning they are. So I finally found my home. Wondering what the future is going to hold for them.

I'm still not in love with their random assignment tables. =\ But the fact that they make all the new MadCats and that it is one of my favorite mechs fixes alot of it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 07 April 2013, 16:07:57
I've got to admit that I didn't like Clan Diamond Shark. Not a shark person. So it wasn't until Golden Century that I took a good look at the Sea Foxes.

Decided I loved how strategic they are and decided that I'd finally found my real faction. So then I just had to come to grips with the Diamond Sharks being completely terrible during operation revival.

But I love the idea of Warrior Merchants. Not because I'm in love with the idea of merchants but just because the whole faction has strategy pounded into them. I like how cunning they are. So I finally found my home. Wondering what the future is going to hold for them.

I'm still not in love with their random assignment tables. =\ But the fact that they make all the new MadCats and that it is one of my favorite mechs fixes alot of it.

I've never liked their taste in Mechs, but I've always been a fan of the Diamond Sharks-- all the way back to Invading Clans. Wonderful to have watched them turn from bumbling caricatures into a sophisticated, ruthless, well-oiled machine-- an even moreso because the transition was gradual and natural. In a sense, they grew up as I did.

I'd liked the idea of ComStar prior to that, but the quasi-religious aspects and the ham-handed meddling in IS politics were a major turn-off. I took to the Sharks when I first heard about them like a fish to fish food. When FM:WC came out, I fell in love with Sigma Galaxy and their Foxy heritage. So after getting back into the game last year, I've been smiling my way through the latest supplements... even Wars of Reaving. I'll never be cheering for them to make huge territorial gains, that's not their style, but I'll always be a Shark/Fox first.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 07 April 2013, 16:21:47
Yeah I love Sigma Galaxy. :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Scrollreader on 08 April 2013, 00:08:16
And buying up ComStar's assets in at least one state.

Who added the bit in ER 3145 about my Foxes buying up Comstar "at fire sale prices" ?  I loved that part.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: SteveRestless on 08 April 2013, 02:38:46
So, I'm looking at the RATs in ER3145.

You guys have the Men Shen in your medium list. The Capellans have the hellstar in their assault list. This leads me to believe that the Foxes might be how a hellstar makes it all the way from the posterior end of nowhere, down to sian.

but... before I go questioning the wisdom of the sea fox, I want to ask you guys. Just how many Men Shens per Hellstar do you have to get to make it a worthwhile deal? It must be a lot. I mean, you guys are deploying them. not just selling them to other factions, but deploying them. You must have them coming out of your ears!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Scrollreader on 08 April 2013, 03:10:27
The answer to that question depends on the length of the service agreement.   8)

Seriously, though the Capellans were rearming, according to the era report, at two to three times the rate of other Great Houses during the Republic.  They aren't a threat to Foxy plans, and AFAIK, their credit is good.  I mean, we don't share a border with them.  Why not extort take fair payment for a quality product?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 08 April 2013, 03:11:34
There's a simple explanation to a lot of the crummy 'Mechs typically found in a Diamond-Sea-Sharkfox RAT: we field what we sell. No point wasting room in an Aimag on 'Mechs that will only be used once in a blue moon, and sometimes we need to show our customers just what we're talking about.


Let's take the Heavy RAT as an example. We're certainly not producing the Warhammer, Black Hawk-KU or Karhu, so we're getting those through trade deals and trying to sell them markets that would otherwise be unavailable (like what's written for the Cadaver).


It'd take a heck of a good deal to be trading Men Shens for Hellstars. I think you're pointing at the wrong culprit here, we don't even have access to the Hellstar on the MUL. However, we could be trading the Men Shen for that junky Black Hawk that the Inner Sphere is gobbling up like raisins, along with the Koshi 2, Crimson Hawk 2, Sphinx, the list goes on. Maybe the W.i.E. are getting desperate for money?

And TBH, I kinda like our RATs this time around. Our general quality has gone down, sure, but our 'Mechs have gotten more interesting.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Scrollreader on 08 April 2013, 04:19:36
... Somehow, I know there is a buyer who saw a Men Shen and a Blackhawk KU with clan pilots and clan pods fight off pirates, who is still trying to figure out why his results are not as good.

Also, why sell the Karhu?  That is a sexy Mech, especially the Warrhammer-esque variant.  (though you can do better with a Mad Dog IV custom)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 08 April 2013, 11:38:52
Finally gave the new Technical Readout a good, thorough read. They could have practically called it "TRO:Sea Fox" because of the amount of stuff we get in there. My thoughts:


Gossamer (selling, not making): Not something I'd use personally, but it's a nice little backstabbing VTOL. The variant, with the lb-x-10, is a lot more interesting to me.

Kite: Man, this thing beats the Odin in every way, shape and form. It might have a bit less firepower, but if you're fielding light hovercraft for their guns, you're doing something wrong. I can't wait to try it out.

Cardinal: Oh baby, this BA transport is a beauty. Makes me actually want to field Battle Armor for once, haha.

Koshi (standard): Welp, gotta have something to sell to the Inner Sphere. Its movement profile (7/11/6) doesn't make it fast enough for something so lightly armored, and a single large laser will tear off an arm at a time. The heavy rear armor suggests it's supposed to get in and get dirty, and with the 4 SRM 4s it can do that, but it looks like it's something that dies exceedingly fast.

Cadaver (selling, not making): This...is an interesting design. I'm really not sure what to make of it yet, I'll have to field it in battle to really get a feel for it.

Tiburon: Ah, I was wondering how our exclusive 'Mech would hold up. It's not too shabby, feels like a different flavor of Hellion. No masc, and with a bit less firepower, but more accurate, better armored, runs cooler and has that Watchdog CEWS. This thing feels like it's made for prolonged battles and campaigns. Probably something I'm going to tinker around with a lot.

Stalking Spider II: The design certainly screams Clan-tech militia 'Mech, so it's not surprising to see that it actually is one. Having the laser and SRM4s in the turret makes it interesting and worth considering, but it's slow and needs to jump to stay alive. Combine that with its short-range weaponry, and you better keep this in pent-up terrain.

Black Hawk (standard): It upgrades the internal structure to endo-steel and drops the armor down to fee up more mass for weaponry...and then spends that mass on some questionable stuff. I don't like having my 'Mechs act like critseekers, so that might be part of the issue. The model-2 does the "replace SRMs with ATMs" deal, while the 3 makes it kinda interesting - it turns it into a mini, jump-capable Stormcrow. Doesn't have the armor, though, and that's always been a big selling point for the Stormcrow for me.

Vulture Mk IV: *drool* It loses 3 tons of podspace over the original, but switches to endo and adds on 6 TONS of upgraded ferro-lamellor. I'm definitely cool with that. The configs are smart and well-done, so this is a 'Mech I'll be fielding all the time.

Jade Hawk (selling/supplying, not making): Herm. If Mercs want it, OK, but I'm not going to be fielding it. 10 tons used on claws (not a fan), with the 4 SRMs under-supplied on ammo while still being needed to keep the TSM running hot (and heat sinks have to be turned off for this to work). Another 4 tons used on an unneeded Partial Wing...this 'Mech is a sketchy one-trick pony. The -04 would be an interesting fire support model, but it still uses up 10 tons on the claws. The Jade Falcon models are a bit different, but we aren't producing or selling those AFAICT.

Savage Wolf/Mad Cat IV: I don't vastly prefer this 'Mech over the original. It's kinda even, they both win out in their own ways. The XXL makes it easier to kill, although if your side torso is out on a normal Timber Wolf you're probably about to die anyway. Converting the armor to ferro-lamellor and armoring the gyro toughens up the core and extremities. The big issue is that although it gains a 0.5 advantage in tonnage, it faces a dramatic drop in number of free crits. This makes a lot of the original configs impossible, and it's why we have a whole new slew of primary ones. The Prime = the old D, and pretty much does the job better. The A = the old E, and mostly does things better again, although I would have liked keeping the TAG around. The B is a brand new config, and looks like the devastating brawler of the bunch. The C = a new adaptation of the old Prime. The switchover from LRM20s to LRM15s+ArtV is definitely an advantage in my eyes, although I think dropping a ton of LRM ammo and a medium pulse for a targeting computer would have been cool.

Nagasawa: Wow, this thing is beautiful. I don't know anything about aero (yet), but from what I can tell, this thing is a lightweight though. It's pretty damn nimble. The armor is definitely solid as well, it has more than the 8,500-ton Isegrim. It seems to be built around the idea of long-ranged combat, with a lot of AMS systems to protect it from the myriad of ship-killing missiles out there. I'd love to hear some imput from someone who knows aero a bit more.

And that sums it up! We certainly are active in this era, I'm loving it. Looks like we might eventually face some splintering though, Fire Mandrill/FWL style T_T;; All that stuff comes from Twycross, Ingersol, Shimonita, Itabiana, Tukayyid and New Oslo, along with the Kraken and the Poseidon. No news on the Chainelanes at ALL in either the ER or the TRO...kinda makes me a bit nervous. The RPG part of the ER mentions Chaine characters getting Protocol/Clan as a freebee, and forces them to take Clan Warrior (Other)/Freebirth path while getting the In For Life/Clan Sea Fox trait at the same time. Hopefully that means the Chaines are still under our control and we're using them to pump out our own private goods.


LOL WALL OF BLACK.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gray Jaguar on 08 April 2013, 11:54:52
Finally gave the new Technical Readout a good, thorough read. They could have practically called it "TRO:Sea Fox" because of the amount of stuff we get in there. My thoughts:


Gossamer (selling, not making): Not something I'd use personally, but it's a nice little backstabbing VTOL. The variant, with the lb-x-10, is a lot more interesting to me.

Kite: Man, this thing beats the Odin in every way, shape and form. It might have a bit less firepower, but if you're fielding light hovercraft for their guns, you're doing something wrong. I can't wait to try it out.

Cardinal: Oh baby, this BA transport is a beauty. Makes me actually want to field Battle Armor for once, haha.

Koshi (standard): Welp, gotta have something to sell to the Inner Sphere. Its movement profile (7/11/6) doesn't make it fast enough for something so lightly armored, and a single large laser will tear off an arm at a time. The heavy rear armor suggests it's supposed to get in and get dirty, and with the 4 SRM 4s it can do that, but it looks like it's something that dies exceedingly fast.

Cadaver (selling, not making): This...is an interesting design. I'm really not sure what to make of it yet, I'll have to field it in battle to really get a feel for it.

Tiburon: Ah, I was wondering how our exclusive 'Mech would hold up. It's not too shabby, feels like a different flavor of Hellion. No masc, and with a bit less firepower, but more accurate, better armored, runs cooler and has that Watchdog CEWS. This thing feels like it's made for prolonged battles and campaigns. Probably something I'm going to tinker around with a lot.

Stalking Spider II: The design certainly screams Clan-tech militia 'Mech, so it's not surprising to see that it actually is one. Having the laser and SRM4s in the turret makes it interesting and worth considering, but it's slow and needs to jump to stay alive. Combine that with its short-range weaponry, and you better keep this in pent-up terrain.

Black Hawk (standard): It upgrades the internal structure to endo-steel and drops the armor down to fee up more mass for weaponry...and then spends that mass on some questionable stuff. I don't like having my 'Mechs act like critseekers, so that might be part of the issue. The model-2 does the "replace SRMs with ATMs" deal, while the 3 makes it kinda interesting - it turns it into a mini, jump-capable Stormcrow. Doesn't have the armor, though, and that's always been a big selling point for the Stormcrow for me.

Vulture Mk IV: *drool* It loses 3 tons of podspace over the original, but switches to endo and adds on 6 TONS of upgraded ferro-lamellor. I'm definitely cool with that. The configs are smart and well-done, so this is a 'Mech I'll be fielding all the time.

Jade Hawk (selling/supplying, not making): Herm. If Mercs want it, OK, but I'm not going to be fielding it. 10 tons used on claws (not a fan), with the 4 SRMs under-supplied on ammo while still being needed to keep the TSM running hot (and heat sinks have to be turned off for this to work). Another 4 tons used on an unneeded Partial Wing...this 'Mech is a sketchy one-trick pony. The -04 would be an interesting fire support model, but it still uses up 10 tons on the claws. The Jade Falcon models are a bit different, but we aren't producing or selling those AFAICT.

Savage Wolf/Mad Cat IV: I don't vastly prefer this 'Mech over the original. It's kinda even, they both win out in their own ways. The XXL makes it easier to kill, although if your side torso is out on a normal Timber Wolf you're probably about to die anyway. Converting the armor to ferro-lamellor and armoring the gyro toughens up the core and extremities. The big issue is that although it gains a 0.5 advantage in tonnage, it faces a dramatic drop in number of free crits. This makes a lot of the original configs impossible, and it's why we have a whole new slew of primary ones. The Prime = the old D, and pretty much does the job better. The A = the old E, and mostly does things better again, although I would have liked keeping the TAG around. The B is a brand new config, and looks like the devastating brawler of the bunch. The C = a new adaptation of the old Prime. The switchover from LRM20s to LRM15s+ArtV is definitely an advantage in my eyes, although I think dropping a ton of LRM ammo and a medium pulse for a targeting computer would have been cool.

Nagasawa: Wow, this thing is beautiful. I don't know anything about aero (yet), but from what I can tell, this thing is a lightweight though. It's pretty damn nimble. The armor is definitely solid as well, it has more than the 8,500-ton Isegrim. It seems to be built around the idea of long-ranged combat, with a lot of AMS systems to protect it from the myriad of ship-killing missiles out there. I'd love to hear some imput from someone who knows aero a bit more.

And that sums it up! We certainly are active in this era, I'm loving it. Looks like we might eventually face some splintering though, Fire Mandrill/FWL style T_T;; All that stuff comes from Twycross, Ingersol, Shimonita, Itabiana, Tukayyid and New Oslo, along with the Kraken and the Poseidon. No news on the Chainelanes at ALL in either the ER or the TRO...kinda makes me a bit nervous. The RPG part of the ER mentions Chaine characters getting Protocol/Clan as a freebee, and forces them to take Clan Warrior (Other)/Freebirth path while getting the In For Life/Clan Sea Fox trait at the same time. Hopefully that means the Chaines are still under our control and we're using them to pump out our own private goods.


As i said in a prior thread, gotta love those new Vultures.  I think they're the new Merc Gold Standard.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 08 April 2013, 12:00:09
Oddly enough, the first BT novels I read were not the Thunder Rift cycle, or the Blood Of Kerensky.  The Jade Phoenix Trilogy was actually the first for me (now that's how you become a Clan slappy, lol...).   So initially, my favorite Clans were Jade Falcon and Wolf...   The Diamond Sharks were kind of a "slow roller" for me. 

Honestly, when I stumbled upon Touring the Stars and the Human Sphere stuff on the net, that was when I fully became a Shark Fox fan.  Reading about the increasing role they would have in the BT universe in general, and not just a Clan's normal "bit part" of aggressor who needs to be kept in check, that sold me all the way.  They were now the Merchant/Info Gatherers/Space Nomads with unique custom designed rides made from WarShips.  SOLD!!!   ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 08 April 2013, 15:11:59
Finally gave the new Technical Readout a good, thorough read. They could have practically called it "TRO:Sea Fox" because of the amount of stuff we get in there. My thoughts:


Gossamer (selling, not making): Not something I'd use personally, but it's a nice little backstabbing VTOL. The variant, with the lb-x-10, is a lot more interesting to me.

Kite: Man, this thing beats the Odin in every way, shape and form. It might have a bit less firepower, but if you're fielding light hovercraft for their guns, you're doing something wrong. I can't wait to try it out.

Cardinal: Oh baby, this BA transport is a beauty. Makes me actually want to field Battle Armor for once, haha.

Koshi (standard): Welp, gotta have something to sell to the Inner Sphere. Its movement profile (7/11/6) doesn't make it fast enough for something so lightly armored, and a single large laser will tear off an arm at a time. The heavy rear armor suggests it's supposed to get in and get dirty, and with the 4 SRM 4s it can do that, but it looks like it's something that dies exceedingly fast.

Cadaver (selling, not making): This...is an interesting design. I'm really not sure what to make of it yet, I'll have to field it in battle to really get a feel for it.

Tiburon: Ah, I was wondering how our exclusive 'Mech would hold up. It's not too shabby, feels like a different flavor of Hellion. No masc, and with a bit less firepower, but more accurate, better armored, runs cooler and has that Watchdog CEWS. This thing feels like it's made for prolonged battles and campaigns. Probably something I'm going to tinker around with a lot.

Stalking Spider II: The design certainly screams Clan-tech militia 'Mech, so it's not surprising to see that it actually is one. Having the laser and SRM4s in the turret makes it interesting and worth considering, but it's slow and needs to jump to stay alive. Combine that with its short-range weaponry, and you better keep this in pent-up terrain.

Black Hawk (standard): It upgrades the internal structure to endo-steel and drops the armor down to fee up more mass for weaponry...and then spends that mass on some questionable stuff. I don't like having my 'Mechs act like critseekers, so that might be part of the issue. The model-2 does the "replace SRMs with ATMs" deal, while the 3 makes it kinda interesting - it turns it into a mini, jump-capable Stormcrow. Doesn't have the armor, though, and that's always been a big selling point for the Stormcrow for me.

Vulture Mk IV: *drool* It loses 3 tons of podspace over the original, but switches to endo and adds on 6 TONS of upgraded ferro-lamellor. I'm definitely cool with that. The configs are smart and well-done, so this is a 'Mech I'll be fielding all the time.

Jade Hawk (selling/supplying, not making): Herm. If Mercs want it, OK, but I'm not going to be fielding it. 10 tons used on claws (not a fan), with the 4 SRMs under-supplied on ammo while still being needed to keep the TSM running hot (and heat sinks have to be turned off for this to work). Another 4 tons used on an unneeded Partial Wing...this 'Mech is a sketchy one-trick pony. The -04 would be an interesting fire support model, but it still uses up 10 tons on the claws. The Jade Falcon models are a bit different, but we aren't producing or selling those AFAICT.

Savage Wolf/Mad Cat IV: I don't vastly prefer this 'Mech over the original. It's kinda even, they both win out in their own ways. The XXL makes it easier to kill, although if your side torso is out on a normal Timber Wolf you're probably about to die anyway. Converting the armor to ferro-lamellor and armoring the gyro toughens up the core and extremities. The big issue is that although it gains a 0.5 advantage in tonnage, it faces a dramatic drop in number of free crits. This makes a lot of the original configs impossible, and it's why we have a whole new slew of primary ones. The Prime = the old D, and pretty much does the job better. The A = the old E, and mostly does things better again, although I would have liked keeping the TAG around. The B is a brand new config, and looks like the devastating brawler of the bunch. The C = a new adaptation of the old Prime. The switchover from LRM20s to LRM15s+ArtV is definitely an advantage in my eyes, although I think dropping a ton of LRM ammo and a medium pulse for a targeting computer would have been cool.

Nagasawa: Wow, this thing is beautiful. I don't know anything about aero (yet), but from what I can tell, this thing is a lightweight though. It's pretty damn nimble. The armor is definitely solid as well, it has more than the 8,500-ton Isegrim. It seems to be built around the idea of long-ranged combat, with a lot of AMS systems to protect it from the myriad of ship-killing missiles out there. I'd love to hear some imput from someone who knows aero a bit more.

And that sums it up! We certainly are active in this era, I'm loving it. Looks like we might eventually face some splintering though, Fire Mandrill/FWL style T_T;; All that stuff comes from Twycross, Ingersol, Shimonita, Itabiana, Tukayyid and New Oslo, along with the Kraken and the Poseidon. No news on the Chainelanes at ALL in either the ER or the TRO...kinda makes me a bit nervous. The RPG part of the ER mentions Chaine characters getting Protocol/Clan as a freebee, and forces them to take Clan Warrior (Other)/Freebirth path while getting the In For Life/Clan Sea Fox trait at the same time. Hopefully that means the Chaines are still under our control and we're using them to pump out our own private goods.


LOL WALL OF BLACK.


Great job on the Tiburons, although I miss the variant Najeh Hammond had in MWDA, it replaced the ERMLs with HMLs. Even if they're not the Improved versions, that would pack a serious whallop for any of the Sea Foxes' enemies.

The Vulture is nothing but an upgrade in my book. Yes you give up 3 tons of podtonnage, but you gain 38 more points of armor, and all of that is switched over to Ferro Lamellor. The official variants follow a pattern, but it's a good one.

The Mad Cat is a tougher decision. I like the looks, especially the cover art. And you have the tonnage to duplicate any existing Timber Wolf variant (not sure about the space, although the TW-A fits).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 08 April 2013, 18:08:03

Great job on the Tiburons, although I miss the variant Najeh Hammond had in MWDA, it replaced the ERMLs with HMLs. Even if they're not the Improved versions, that would pack a serious whallop for any of the Sea Foxes' enemies.

The Vulture is nothing but an upgrade in my book. Yes you give up 3 tons of podtonnage, but you gain 38 more points of armor, and all of that is switched over to Ferro Lamellor. The official variants follow a pattern, but it's a good one.

The Mad Cat is a tougher decision. I like the looks, especially the cover art. And you have the tonnage to duplicate any existing Timber Wolf variant (not sure about the space, although the TW-A fits).



A heavy medium laser variant of the Tiburon? I'M COOL WITH THAT!

I don't think there's anyone on the forums who honestly thinks the Vulture IV is a flop. If they do, I'll challenge them to a circle of equals and smash their head in with my shiny new 'Mech.

The more I look at the Mad Cat IV, the more I like it. It's sturdier in all of it's locations except for the 2 side torsos; and in their case, the B and C have CASE II to keep them intact even after an ammo explosion. The heat scale runs a bit hotter, but seems easy to balance on the configs given. One interesting thing to take into account now: the MCIV can't wield a LB-X-10, a RAC/5 or a Gauss Rifle in its arms. Bummer.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 08 April 2013, 18:12:33
As much as the Sea Fox marketing department would like to, we can't have Gauss Rifles on everything.   :'(
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gray Jaguar on 08 April 2013, 19:52:12
As much as the Sea Fox marketing department would like to, we can't have Gauss Rifles on everything.   :'(

Clan Sea Fox: "You want a Gauss with that?"
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: AJC46 on 09 April 2013, 07:19:45
Mad Cat MK.IV is freaking expensive at least according to SSW it is the base chassis alone costs more than 8 AS7-D atlases and depending on the loadout you can throw a UrbanMech or 2 with it and still have plenty of spare change leftover.

would you like solid gold and germanium plating with precious gem inlay with that?

at least probably whoever can afford blowing cash to afford whole lances of this mech probably would too.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 09 April 2013, 08:47:01
Mad Cat MK.IV is freaking expensive at least according to SSW it is the base chassis alone costs more than 8 AS7-D atlases and depending on the loadout you can throw a UrbanMech or 2 with it and still have plenty of spare change leftover.

would you like solid gold and germanium plating with precious gem inlay with that?

at least probably whoever can afford blowing cash to afford whole lances of this mech probably would too.

remmeber: most of the Inner Sphere has just come out of an unprecedented period of relative peace and prosperity. Most Houses,
at the time of the start of all that mess, had bulging coffers, since they did not have to maintain a huge active military that was constantly expanding, and so were able to, in theory, put money into BETTER units then just filling billets in a unit. So, the Houses are willing to shell out the money for a good unit and have it to spend? Guess who is there to fill that need...Your friendly neighborhood Aimeg!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 09 April 2013, 08:59:55

 the MCIV can't wield a LB-X-10, a RAC/5 or a Gauss Rifle in its arms. Bummer.

Actually the Clan RAC/5 takes up eight slots so it can be split per the most recent TM errata.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: truegrit on 09 April 2013, 09:47:46
Slowly finding time to get through the 3145 materials, and it's delicious. I see the Sea Fox ascent as reparations for having such a dinky selection in the WizKids game :)

Plus…Tiburon! Can't wait for this one to appear in metal.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ABADDON on 09 April 2013, 10:41:33
remmeber: most of the Inner Sphere has just come out of an unprecedented period of relative peace and prosperity. Most Houses,
at the time of the start of all that mess, had bulging coffers, since they did not have to maintain a huge active military that was constantly expanding, and so were able to, in theory, put money into BETTER units then just filling billets in a unit. So, the Houses are willing to shell out the money for a good unit and have it to spend? Guess who is there to fill that need...Your friendly neighborhood Aimeg!

I'm still not quite sure what happened in that regard. Have the houses been somehow forced to cripple themselves in terms of rearmament or was that mainly done by Gentlemen's agreement, or even by Republican economical pressure?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 09 April 2013, 10:59:22
I'm still not quite sure what happened in that regard. Have the houses been somehow forced to cripple themselves in terms of rearmament or was that mainly done by Gentlemen's agreement, or even by Republican economical pressure?

I think it was a combination of Republic Economic Pressure, and,f rankly, maintaining massive armies is expensive. By trimming down
and moving towards a more elite core of 'mechs(as it seems that it was only 'Mech numbers that got reduced), the Houses saved some money. As someone said: The Savage Wolf costs, base, as much as 2 lances of AS-7D's. However, what would the Prime do TO those two lances of AS-7D? The reconstruction era provided the perfect excuse to clean house, and buy the BETTER units.  That the Houses
used incentives similar to what the republic used to get 'mechs out of private hands as much as possible, they could then turn around
and either use those 'mechs to rebuild militia units, or could sell them to Merc units. Either way, it saved them money over having to
rush factory production.

Now, combine all that with an Era where, for the most part, people are still weary of war, and a generation was still dealing with the
trauma of the jihad, so MOST people did not go to war casually, and you have an era where 'mechs don't need to be replaced as often.
When you do not need to replace something as often, you can put money aside to infrastructure, economics, etc, bolstering your civilian
sector. When you have a healthy economy, you can afford to focus on replacing units for your military with further upgrades.

Honestly, for the Sea Fox, I think they understood very much one of the Ferrengi Rules of Acquisition: "War is good for business. Peace is good for business."   (Of course, in BattleTech: "Peace is that glorious moment when everyone stands around reloading.")
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ABADDON on 09 April 2013, 11:25:27
Thx, good thoughts. So it was actually more voluntary than forced by treaty and threat.

Even though the Savage Wolf vs. 8 AS-7D Atlas example ("what would it do to those two lances?") is somewhat... well I dunno... I don't care how good that individual mech might be, 8 hundred ton mechs will still tear it apart fairly easily. :P
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Scrollreader on 09 April 2013, 11:45:12
There's also a question of transport.  If you have a Union, 12 of these bad boys are pretty terrifying.  And sure, you could have bought dozens of atlas models ... And had to leave 75 percent of them at home.  I'm not saying I'd Replace my whole brigade with the Mad Cat, solid germanium edition.  But I might spend the money for my Natasha K's, Kai Allards, and Ristars in my keshik or premier trialing cluster.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ABADDON on 09 April 2013, 11:49:13
Do we actually know in which year exactly the Vulture Mk IV was introduced?
Savage Wolf obviously 3139...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 09 April 2013, 12:01:41
Do we actually know in which year exactly the Vulture Mk IV was introduced?
Savage Wolf obviously 3139...

Savage Wolf was 3136; Vulture Mk IV very shortly after.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 09 April 2013, 12:24:19
Well, a lot of people are focusing on the cost of the Mad Cat IV right now, but they're far from the only XXL offender on the RATs.

The Jade Falcons have the Rifleman C 2 on their RAT (although it's rare, based on its placement). The Raven Alliance apparently have tons of Dark Crow 3's, and a few Dasher II 2's as well. Then the Dasher II 2 also appears on the Rasalhague Dominion's RAT (where it's uncommon), with the Hell's Horses (common) and even on the Merc RAT (rare).

Then if you look at the RATS, many of the lowest-tier 'Mechs are no longer 3025 ones. They've all gotten upgraded to better models. I think people have more money to invest into powerful 'Mech armies, and that's certainly something I can welcome with open arms.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ABADDON on 09 April 2013, 12:26:00
Savage Wolf was 3136; Vulture Mk IV very shortly after.

Thx, would have actually expected it to be the other way around.
Regarding 3139 I was just going by the information given in the TRO entry.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 09 April 2013, 12:45:01
Y'know, I really hope that we won't have to face a rending any time soon. I don't want us to start killing each other to gain access to new feeding grounds. Thankfully, the way we separate the Inner Sphere into specific bite-sized morsels should preclude that. I hope that when the Aimags do start becoming more and more distinct (kinda inevitable, with each one of them working with completely different cultures) we'll remain respectful towards each other and continue to put the well-being of Clan Sea Fox above all. In other words, I want us to become more like the Cloud Cobras, and less like the Fire Mandrills. [/spoilers]

I hope we get more info on the different Aimags. I want to know which one I should throw my support behind.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 09 April 2013, 13:33:59
I hope we get more info on the different Aimags. I want to know which one I should throw my support behind.

Here here.  Let's hope it's covered in a Clan specific FM.   O:-)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 09 April 2013, 13:44:03
Everytime I hear Fox Shark here I think of Gamma Aimag's new logo. Its hilarious.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 09 April 2013, 13:48:53
Nice! 

Yeah, once picked up, Shark Fox is a tough term to simply drop from the lexicon.


edit: luckily, that's the worst of our problems.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 09 April 2013, 13:49:51
Hey, I like Gamma-Tiburon's logo! It's Delta-Spinate I'm having trouble with...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Scrollreader on 09 April 2013, 14:06:16
Does anybody have/know where to find the Gamma-Tiburon logo in color?  It'd be a perfect forum avatar.  For that matter, do we have canon colors for the aimags yet?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 09 April 2013, 14:16:11
Hey Scroll

Maybe check over at Camospecs.  They will often have an updated unit logo and paint schemes for ya.



edit: just checked and it's not updated there yet, i think.   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Scrollreader on 09 April 2013, 14:20:35
Sadly, Camospecs is still all Sharky.  No foxes except on the odd Klondike mech, and no new (Dark Age) stuff yet.  Thanks though.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 09 April 2013, 14:31:00
I did snag that fox insignia for Sigma while I was there.  Very nice. 

I'm sure we won't have to wait too long to find one. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 09 April 2013, 14:36:14
Does anybody have/know where to find the Gamma-Tiburon logo in color?  It'd be a perfect forum avatar.  For that matter, do we have canon colors for the aimags yet?

Nope, and nothing officially official.

HOWEVER:
This shows a possible ilKhanate paint job (it has the ilKhanate's emblem on its right shoulder): http://bidwicket.com/Item/C/Collectible_Games/Mech_Warrior/Singles/Falcons_Prey/12240_Najeh_Hammond___Tiburon.html

This shows a possible Skate Khanate paint job: http://www.nightmoose.net/~cthulhu/mechwarrior/fp_pics/MWFP_149.jpg
...AND emblem/indentification of the Khanate found here (warning: PDF): http://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/0/00/Falcon%27s_Prey_25.pdf

I like the paintjobs, although the Sea Foxes seem to be getting a bit morbid with their emblems.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 09 April 2013, 14:44:15
This seems to be another Skate Khanate, not sure though: http://www.nightmoose.net/~cthulhu/mechwarrior/an_pics/MWAN_049.jpg
This one is for sure, it has the same emblem on its leg: http://www.nightmoose.net/~cthulhu/mechwarrior/an_pics/MWAN_053.jpg
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 09 April 2013, 20:10:41
Is Sigma Galaxy still missing? They haven't been heard from since the reaving have they?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 09 April 2013, 21:29:00
The only mention of Sigma that we put into our "Wars of Reaving" document details the 8th Cruiser Cluster's last stand on Paxon. The dezgra Blood Spirits carelessly let one of their futile Trial of Possessions spill into our civilian camps. While the 83rd Combined Strike Cluster assaulted the Blood Spirit position to smash these chalcas freebirths away from our lower casts, the honorless Coyotes snuck in to loot and gorge themselves on our supplies. Our 8th Cruiser righteously tore into the Coyote troops, beheading their command star in our fury, but ultimately the savage Homeworlders wiped out every last Warrior of the valiant 8th.

Sadly, Republic intelligence finally managed to put one and one together the time they released FM:3085 to their troops. They discovered our holdings in the Chainelane Isles, and most of Sigma Galaxy within it. Although they still do not know of what happened to the 61st Air Assault Cluster or the 79th Strike Cluster, they even managed to determine that our Loremaster was in command of the Moonskate Cluster at the time.

Our recent evolution into using the Aimag/Khanate system has lead us to completely rearrange and restructure of our Touman. It is most likely unknown to Republic forces where the elements of Sigma Galaxy may now be found at this time. I unfortunately cannot share this information with you over such unsecured channels.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Neufeld on 10 April 2013, 18:04:56
This thread used to be quiet and abandoned, but look at it now.
TPTB has done a good job making the SharkFoxes interesting, and interesting enough that they might replace one of my top six factions.
Still, I want more DA info before I make up my mind.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 10 April 2013, 18:06:30
Indeed, I'm still a Coyote at heart first, but the Foxes are rapidly replacing the Ravens as my favorite IS clan.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 10 April 2013, 18:56:08
I was glad to see that the Sea Foxes actually made it through all the development decisions to become like what they were described as in Exploring the Stars.   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 10 April 2013, 19:48:33
MY GOD I just noticed that we traded 4 WarShips for 4 Potemkins in 3090...it makes complete sense for us, but we could have run a harder deal than that T_T
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 10 April 2013, 20:20:24
This thread used to be quiet and abandoned, but look at it now.
TPTB has done a good job making the SharkFoxes interesting, and interesting enough that they might replace one of my top six factions.
Still, I want more DA info before I make up my mind.

The Diamond Sharks didn't have a good go of it in Revival. Ian Hawker made it really hard to like the Diamond Sharks. But they revived very well after they replaced him.

I'd always wanted to like them but the first sight you get of them being clan sea fox is a big shark holding one of the poor things up out of the water in its teeth. But thats also when their fluff was, "They have merchants"

But when I started reading more about them my favorite thing was that they are amazing strategists. They consider fortifications part of a bid. They have side objectives that can win them a net gain even if they lose. The clans are focused primarily on military strategy. But the Sea Foxes focus on Strategy. They focus on the end goal.

So then I think, "Well if I have a favorite clan its this one. With all of these horrible looking mechs." But hopefully they get much more involved. Because at this point its hard to think of roleplaying campaigns that utilize them well. :) Well. I say that, but when you read TRO's apparently Warrior Merchants are free to wander around the Inner Sphere and make deals.

So a Warrior Merchant is easy to rp. As for playing regular battles though I'm not sure. Alot of battles against pirates? Seems like they also fight quite a few trials against other clans.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 10 April 2013, 20:21:48
MY GOD I just noticed that we traded 4 WarShips for 4 Potemkins in 3090...it makes complete sense for us, but we could have run a harder deal than that T_T

Could we have? Potemkins are useful. Word of Blake with their dropships and naval auto cannons proved that a Warship isn't that useful.

And a Potemkin can carry twenty five of those...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 10 April 2013, 20:24:23
MY GOD I just noticed that we traded 4 WarShips for 4 Potemkins in 3090...it makes complete sense for us, but we could have run a harder deal than that T_T

Three Potemkins and a Volga, actually.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 10 April 2013, 20:57:11
I wish we could have normal aerospace fighter pilots though. Clan Ghost Bear gets all the luck. haha
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 10 April 2013, 21:15:18
Three Potemkins and a Volga, actually.

I actually meant that, too. >.<

I've been re-looking through the Wars of Reaving, and man...I think the Sennet bloodhouse got hit *hard* by one of those genetic viruses. There are literally no Sennets in command anymore by FM:3085.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 10 April 2013, 21:59:40
I just finished my breakdown comparison of Pre- and Post-WoR Diamond Shark forces!! It took me a while, I was fiddling away on it every once in a while when I had the time. Things that I learnt:

-The Emerald Skate vanished into thin air after Angus Labov died.
-Rho Spina Galaxy went throughout the entire Wars of Reaving without it, or any of its clusters, getting mentioned once. A few assumptions can be made, but nothing to explain its entire destruction.
-The 13th Cruiser is the sketchiest cluster in Rho Spina to disappear. Their commanding officer was a Warrior who had retired to the Scientist caste before returning to active duty and skyrocketing through the ranks. He was also noted at being quite political, and creating a loyal cadre of Warriors around him.
-Not a single commanding officer present before the Wars of Reaving (except for Alan Hawker, Barbara Sennet and possibly a few WarShip/AeroFighter ones) was in command by 3085.
-The 27th Combined Strike Cluster and the 44th Cruiser Cluster became Evil with a capital E after being gifted to the Coyotes. Kinda shows what some Sharks will do in order to survive.
-We have 3 different Star Colonels who came from the Coyotes.

I can post the text file if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 10 April 2013, 23:03:10
This thread used to be quiet and abandoned, but look at it now.
TPTB has done a good job making the SharkFoxes interesting, and interesting enough that they might replace one of my top six factions.

The Shark Foxes were my favorite clan all the way back to Invading Clans. Loved them from day one. Hated the Thresher, mind you, but loved the clan. Along with the Star Adders, they seem like Clan Grownups to me-- have their eyes on the ball, while the other clans are chasing glory and white elephant conquests.

However, I'm thrilled at seeing all the new players flocking to the Sea Fox banner. And the writing and elaboration we've seen lately is a major part of it. Plus, they're something different. The closest faction to them is ComStar, and the Foxes play a much better and more subtle game than them.

Could we have? Potemkins are useful. Word of Blake with their dropships and naval auto cannons proved that a Warship isn't that useful.

And a Potemkin can carry twenty five of those...

And look how adding dropship collars adds to the manufacturing cost. versus weapons and armor that are mostly per-ton prices. Worth every penny. BTW, it also reduced the other clans' ability to compete at the same time. And seeing how fast the warships were slagged later, the deal was an unmixed blessing-- bordering on highway robbery.

I wish we could have normal aerospace fighter pilots though. Clan Ghost Bear gets all the luck. haha

Yeah, true enough. Though the Foxes are notorious for playing around with their genetics and breeding protocols more than most clans. Having large sibkos, they can afford to take risks that other clans won't. So we can hope they revamp their aerospace policy.

But when I started reading more about them my favorite thing was that they are amazing strategists. They consider fortifications part of a bid. They have side objectives that can win them a net gain even if they lose. The clans are focused primarily on military strategy. But the Sea Foxes focus on Strategy. They focus on the end goal.

Totally agree. Like I said, Clan Grownup. Also agree re: Ian Hawker, who was dumber than a sack full of hammers. I love how he killed himself after the Great Refusal because he couldn't stand an age of peace. Thus, having failed to see any fighting in Revival except the humiliation at Tukayyid, he died and thus missed out of the Wars of Possession, Jihad, and Wars of Reaving. Did the clan a massive favor. His legacy should be permanently mothballed.

I just finished my breakdown comparison of Pre- and Post-WoR Diamond Shark forces!! It took me a while, I was fiddling away on it every once in a while when I had the time. Things that I learnt:

-The Emerald Skate vanished into thin air after Angus Labov died.
-Rho Spina Galaxy went throughout the entire Wars of Reaving without it, or any of its clusters, getting mentioned once. A few assumptions can be made, but nothing to explain its entire destruction.
-The 13th Cruiser is the sketchiest cluster in Rho Spina to disappear. Their commanding officer was a Warrior who had retired to the Scientist caste before returning to active duty and skyrocketing through the ranks. He was also noted at being quite political, and creating a loyal cadre of Warriors around him.
-Not a single commanding officer present before the Wars of Reaving (except for Alan Hawker, Barbara Sennet and possibly a few WarShip/AeroFighter ones) was in command by 3085.
-The 27th Combined Strike Cluster and the 44th Cruiser Cluster became Evil with a capital E after being gifted to the Coyotes. Kinda shows what some Sharks will do in order to survive.
-We have 3 different Star Colonels who came from the Coyotes.

I can post the text file if anyone is interested.
I just finished my breakdown comparison of Pre- and Post-WoR Diamond Shark forces!! It took me a while, I was fiddling away on it every once in a while when I had the time. Things that I learnt:

-The Emerald Skate vanished into thin air after Angus Labov died.
-Rho Spina Galaxy went throughout the entire Wars of Reaving without it, or any of its clusters, getting mentioned once. A few assumptions can be made, but nothing to explain its entire destruction.
-The 13th Cruiser is the sketchiest cluster in Rho Spina to disappear. Their commanding officer was a Warrior who had retired to the Scientist caste before returning to active duty and skyrocketing through the ranks. He was also noted at being quite political, and creating a loyal cadre of Warriors around him.
-Not a single commanding officer present before the Wars of Reaving (except for Alan Hawker, Barbara Sennet and possibly a few WarShip/AeroFighter ones) was in command by 3085.
-The 27th Combined Strike Cluster and the 44th Cruiser Cluster became Evil with a capital E after being gifted to the Coyotes. Kinda shows what some Sharks will do in order to survive.
-We have 3 different Star Colonels who came from the Coyotes.

I can post the text file if anyone is interested.
I just finished my breakdown comparison of Pre- and Post-WoR Diamond Shark forces!! It took me a while, I was fiddling away on it every once in a while when I had the time. Things that I learnt:

(Snip...)

I can post the text file if anyone is interested.

Yes, please do! It would be interesting if the Diamond Sharks turned out to have been much more deeply involved in the Society than they let on. Though it might also be explained by the fact that the Coyotes were allies. I never noticed that atrocities were committed by "Coyotes" who were really former Sharks.

Come to think of it, the Cloud Cobras were, also. The Blood Spirits and Hell's Horses had close mercantile ties. The Star Adders and Diamond Sharks were friendly rivals-- they fought, but also deeply respected one another. The Goliath Scorpions were on relatively good terms as well. Of all the clans that survived the Wars of Reaving, all were on good terms or better with the Sharks prior to the War. And whereas most of the IS clans were driven out early, the Sharks stayed pretty much to the end.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 11 April 2013, 00:11:28
Seconded on the spread.

WoR briefly mentioned near the beginning that the Cobras were watching the Shark Foxes with an eye toward supplanting them as the mercantile force in the Homeworlds.  Like their Adder allies, they sat quietly and harnessed the vicious strengths of the Steel Vipers to do their dirty work for them.   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 11 April 2013, 01:18:54
You know...now that we are officially in the Dark Age, I guess I am going to need to switch myself over at some point to a new Sea Fox avatar, as they were the faction I finally settled on in MW:DA/AoD..I have been watching the developments on them for a while, of course.

I wonder if the Sea Foxes have/use Protomechs?
Also, still not sure which Aimeg I am ultimately going to go with...But I SOOOOOOO want Tiburon miniatures now!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 11 April 2013, 01:26:07
I wonder if the Sea Foxes have/use Protomechs?

Possible, because they do like to experiment. But doubtful; blowing through warriors due to EI-related brain burn just isn't good for business. Especially since the Sea Foxes avoid fighting when possible. Especially since a great many plan on retirement once they have a blood name (or definitively won't be earning one).

Protos are ideal for factions that are personnel-heavy and resources-light. The Sea Foxes have the opposite problems. Better to trade for the tech and keep an eye on things... if they EI burnout problem can be solved then they might well adopt them.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 11 April 2013, 01:29:12
I wonder if the Sea Foxes have/use Protomechs?

I agree with wellspring in that they're extremely unlikely to use them.

I'd like to add that selling them does seem somewhat likely, however.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 11 April 2013, 01:44:46
I attached the doc, Trothkin! Made it in TextEdit, hope the formating/colours are OK. If not, I can upload a different format.

The Shark Foxes were my favorite clan all the way back to Invading Clans. Loved them from day one. Hated the Thresher, mind you, but loved the clan. Along with the Star Adders, they seem like Clan Grownups to me-- have their eyes on the ball, while the other clans are chasing glory and white elephant conquests.

We've always gotten the funky 'Mechs. Even this TRO, we have a variety of...oddities, and a few below-average designs that we happen to be selling. HOWEVER!! We no longer have the Dasher II on our RAT. Eat that, Ghost Bear fans!!

However, I'm thrilled at seeing all the new players flocking to the Sea Fox banner. And the writing and elaboration we've seen lately is a major part of it. Plus, they're something different. The closest faction to them is ComStar, and the Foxes play a much better and more subtle game than them.

The more, the merrier!! We've gotten a lot of visitors in the past few days, I hope a few stick around.

And look how adding dropship collars adds to the manufacturing cost. versus weapons and armor that are mostly per-ton prices. Worth every penny. BTW, it also reduced the other clans' ability to compete at the same time. And seeing how fast the warships were slagged later, the deal was an unmixed blessing-- bordering on highway robbery.

Oh yeah, it's definitely worth every penny for us. And we definitely got the better part of the deal (at least, for now). But the Snow Ravens have their obsession with aerospace forces, and they had just lost a ton of WarShips, too. I'm sure we could have pressured them to add on a few trade concessions in addition to everything else. Fleece 'em nice and solid.

Yeah, true enough. Though the Foxes are notorious for playing around with their genetics and breeding protocols more than most clans. Having large sibkos, they can afford to take risks that other clans won't. So we can hope they revamp their aerospace policy.

I wonder if we're one of the Clans fiddling around with Elstars.

Totally agree. Like I said, Clan Grownup. Also agree re: Ian Hawker, who was dumber than a sack full of hammers. I love how he killed himself after the Great Refusal because he couldn't stand an age of peace. Thus, having failed to see any fighting in Revival except the humiliation at Tukayyid, he died and thus missed out of the Wars of Possession, Jihad, and Wars of Reaving. Did the clan a massive favor. His legacy should be permanently mothballed.

My god, imagine if Ian Hawker had been around for the Wars of Reaving. What an unmitigated disaster *that* would have been...today I was hunting for the remains of the Emerald Skate, and I ended up reading through all of the passages talking about Angus Labov. The man did so much for the Sharks, it's incredible. I don't think Barbara Sennet would have gone nearly as far without him acting behind the scenes. It's a shame he got taken out by a stray knife.

Yes, please do! It would be interesting if the Diamond Sharks turned out to have been much more deeply involved in the Society than they let on. Though it might also be explained by the fact that the Coyotes were allies. I never noticed that atrocities were committed by "Coyotes" who were really former Sharks.

It's two Clusters of the Sharks that were handed over. They aren't explicitly said to have committed any atrocities, but based upon where they went and what was happening there, you can safely assume that they did some pretty terrible things.

The Coyotes were allies at first; it's why the Clusters (and some enclaves) were handed over in the first place. After the Coyotes decided to go gung-ho with the Society, though, everything changed. They starting trashing everything we held. The Coyotes turned out to be our worst enemies on the battlefield, although the Vipers (with their Khan-killing, fleet-smashing ways) were terrible in their own way.

WoR briefly mentioned near the beginning that the Cobras were watching the Shark Foxes with an eye toward supplanting them as the mercantile force in the Homeworlds.  Like their Adder allies, they sat quietly and harnessed the vicious strengths of the Steel Vipers to do their dirty work for them.   

What I recently noticed about the Cobras is that they survived the Wars of Reaving by being very cautious, and very smart. They saw Stanislov's rising star early, and decided to ride his coattails and stay friends with the Adders no matter what instead of try to fight them with their extremely small and under-experienced Touman. Even later in the Wars they rarely went into combat on their own, unless they had a well-planned out campaign ahead of them. Tanis, of course, is the exception...but Tanis always was the thorn in the Cobras' side.

You know...now that we are officially in the Dark Age, I guess I am going to need to switch myself over at some point to a new Sea Fox avatar, as they were the faction I finally settled on in MW:DA/AoD..I have been watching the developments on them for a while, of course.

I wonder if the Sea Foxes have/use Protomechs?

JOIN USSSSS

The Foxes no longer use ProtoMechs :/
I can no longer justify their use as a Fox player. It'll be a cold day in Hell before I play their Horses, and I'm not exactly a huge fan of the Ravens either. I guess I'll stick to pre-Dark Age games for my ProtoRockin' ways.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 11 April 2013, 02:58:40
Indeed Cobras are very careful.  That's been their pattern since the time of Rafe Kardaan.  They too get to be classed with the grownup Clans, I would say.   :)


OK... I have a hypothesis about what happened to Rho Spina:  Could they have possibly been embarked on Dropships attached to the Black Diamond Naval Star?  You know...   the one that the CSV Perigard Zalman belly-smashed during its first battle.   (nice doc, by the way)

That's a good way for an entire galaxy to disappear without word of battle or even the prospect of one.   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 11 April 2013, 03:19:44
alternatively, because they're such good people persons they may have ejected the trouble makers from their clan before everything hit the fan. They did that with all of their crusaders.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 April 2013, 03:23:02
One question . . . with the Shark/Foxes having sold a LOT of Nova Cat produced equipment- Jousts, Shoden, Arbalest, Ocelots, Clan BA, Void, SM1 series and other items . . . does anyone think they will take the cream of the designs and keep producing them?

I say this as a big Joust/SM1/Clan BA/Void fan.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 11 April 2013, 08:29:06
One question . . . with the Shark/Foxes having sold a LOT of Nova Cat produced equipment- Jousts, Shoden, Arbalest, Ocelots, Clan BA, Void, SM1 series and other items . . . does anyone think they will take the cream of the designs and keep producing them?

I say this as a big Joust/SM1/Clan BA/Void fan.

The ER3145 mentions how the Combine took the Cat's production facilities from them.  (one of the reasons they felt the need to rebel)

Whether the Sharks ended up with some of them isn't specified.  It's certainly possible the Sharks made a deal to buy some of them, run them for a cut of the output, or simply launched Trials of Possesion for the lines they wanted.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Neufeld on 11 April 2013, 09:02:29
So, the khanates are distributed roughly as following:
- ilKhanate - Draconis Combine part of IS
- Tiburon Khanate - Lyran Commonwealth part of IS
- Spina Khanate - FWL part of IS
- Skate Khanate - Federated Suns part of IS
Did I get it right?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 11 April 2013, 09:52:47
Close, but one small correction. The ilKhanate is not limited to a single theatre, and can travel and do business anywhere; so replace it with the Fox Khanate (don't bother looking for it in ER:3145, it wasn't there).

I think there might be some variation over time, however. Hunters of the Deeps says "...the Khanates and their Aimags, which bid for and fought to acquire the rights in specific regions of space...", so I'd expect a variation on your standard Trial of Possession for shipping rights.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 11 April 2013, 10:14:34
Who covers Liao space?  Split between Spina and Skate?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 11 April 2013, 10:19:20
Yeah, that's what makes it complicated. The Clan OZ is also written to be divided in two.

If I had to take a wild guess, each Khanate covers two halves of two different sectors; EG: Tiburon would cover half of the Coreward and Anti-Spinward sectors, giving them roughly what's described in ER:3145.

That would most likely leave the Capellan Confederation to the Skate Khanate.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 11 April 2013, 10:24:09
Yeah, that's what makes it complicated. The Clan OZ is also written to be divided in two.

If I had to take a wild guess, each Khanate covers two halves of two different sectors; EG: Tiburon would cover half of the Coreward and Anti-Spinward sectors, giving them roughly what's described in ER:3145.

That would most likely leave the Capellan Confederation to the Skate Khanate.

It makes sense for the khanates to straddle the borders between nations, rather than operating within them. Greater resistance to political interference, plus you can conduct cross-border trade without complicating things by coordinating with another khanate.

Maybe not how they did it, but probably the Right Way to do it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 11 April 2013, 11:24:05
Yep, that's pretty much it exactly. Each khanate has a rough territory they operate in but they can negotiate with other khanates to gain rights to business outside their usual swimming holes.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 11 April 2013, 15:01:38
Quote
-Not a single commanding officer present before the Wars of Reaving (except for Alan Hawker, Barbara Sennet and possibly a few WarShip/AeroFighter ones) was in command by 3085.


This may not be so bad considering most clans discrimination against age. Though, Clan Sea Fox does generally ignore alot of that discrimination.

But we lost that crazy Blood Angel chick? >.> she was nuts.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 11 April 2013, 15:55:23
This may not be so bad considering most clans discrimination against age. Though, Clan Sea Fox does generally ignore alot of that discrimination.

Do they? During the Hawker years, the ill-starred Khan used a lot of staffing tricks to pack the touman with cronies, but FM:WC is pretty clear that there's always been the usual anti-freebirth discrimination. There's not much evidence either way regarding age discrimination, but the Field Manual probably would have made a note of it if the Sharks were unusual in that regard.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 11 April 2013, 16:12:57
Do they? During the Hawker years, the ill-starred Khan used a lot of staffing tricks to pack the touman with cronies, but FM:WC is pretty clear that there's always been the usual anti-freebirth discrimination. There's not much evidence either way regarding age discrimination, but the Field Manual probably would have made a note of it if the Sharks were unusual in that regard.

The majority of the clans touman got decimated in Tukayyid. But because the clan lets warriors retire to other castes they allowed them to trial back to fill their ranks. So after Tukayyid, despite taking the most horrific losses possible there they had one of the strongest touman's in the clans. Staffed predominantly with Older Savvy Mechwarriors.

Tukayyid may also be the reason for our very wonky RAT's. Probably lost most of our omni's on that planet.

So after the freebirth units that were second line threw their lives away to help a couple of the true born mechwarriors get off planet they decided to allow freebirths into frontline combat units.

Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon needing to rebuild their touman then had the clans crusaders thrown at them in the harvest trials. So they ditched most of the crusader faction which tends also to be the group that suppresses freebirths.

Clan Diamond Shark died on Tukayyid. It was that factions final battle. (Though I suppose its death throes lasted through the great refusal)

They replaced their losses with a bunch of strategically minded Warden Merchant Warriors and have been Clan Sea Fox ever since. After this battle their tactics completely change and they start playing the long game.

The mention of the warriors gifted to clan coyote after this wreaking havoc makes me wonder if they didn't know quite a bit about the society, purged their own faction and got ready to get the hell out or if like has been mentioned they knew more about it than they let on.

Edit: Also Clan Wolf totally won the rights to Ian Hawker's legacy and they can have it. Bargained Well and Done. >.>
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 11 April 2013, 17:31:34
The majority of the clans touman got decimated in Tukayyid. But because the clan lets warriors retire to other castes they allowed them to trial back to fill their ranks. So after Tukayyid, despite taking the most horrific losses possible there they had one of the strongest touman's in the clans. Staffed predominantly with Older Savvy Mechwarriors.

The majority of the Touman didn't even reach the Inner Sphere. Elements of three Galaxies fought in that battle: Alpha, Gamma, and Omega. Alpha and Gamma took very serious but not fatal losses. Omega, a freebirth garrison unit, was the only galaxy that was destroyed entirely (saving the two front-line galaxies).

Otherwise, good analysis. Barbara Sennet is the perfect Diamond Shark: low-key, soft-spoken, and gets the job done. You're right: her measures (and those of Angus Labov, ironically the one who gets more of the credit) restored the Touman and (quietly) restored the Diamond Sharks. Hawker's pre-Invasion measures marginalized the other castes, along with warden and freebirth warriors. Barbara quietly undid those policies without controversy despite Hawker remaining in charge.

That doesn't say that ageism doesn't exist in the Sharks; it was clearly an emergency measure. Live fire trials were also suspended, but that doesn't mean the Sharks had a change of heart about those either.

Clan Diamond Shark died on Tukayyid. It was that factions final battle. (Though I suppose its death throes lasted through the great refusal)

They replaced their losses with a bunch of strategically minded Warden Merchant Warriors and have been Clan Sea Fox ever since. After this battle their tactics completely change and they start playing the long game.

I mostly agree with this, too, but while Wardens tend to be less radically anti-freebirth than the Crusaders, they still have the same prejudices. FM:WC is very clear about the fact that the post-great refusal Diamond Sharks still have a typical level of anti-freebirth sentiment for the clans. Though Hawker's measure banning freebirths from front-line galaxies was rescinded after Tukayyid, it had only been implemented five years before at the start of the invasion (along with most of his other policies). The prejudice greatly antedates Hawker.

The mention of the warriors gifted to clan coyote after this wreaking havoc makes me wonder if they didn't know quite a bit about the society, purged their own faction and got ready to get the hell out or if like has been mentioned they knew more about it than they let on.

Quite possible. It would fit their modus operandi to purge themselves, and make a gift of the traitors to buy off the Society long enough to effect their withdrawal.

If so, Vinton was one of two things. As written, it could be seen as a betrayal: the Coyotes annihilating the unsuspecting Sharks and taking a world they might have gotten for free if they'd waited. (Much as the Cloud Cobras seized and conquered Nova Cat territories that they'd pledged to defend.) It might also represent a Coyote reprisal for an undisclosed betrayal by the Sharks, perhaps seeking to distance themselves from the scandal. Or... the whole thing could be a sham, with the Diamond Sharks emptying the world of civilians and equipment, then abandoning the planet to the Coyotes, except for a single tiny underwater enclave which the Blood Spirits later discovered. This last theory actually works whether the Sharks were working with the Society or not.

Either way, it's fishy that the Coyotes didn't occupy their prize after working so hard and bleeding so much to take it. The sharks had had years to empty that planet, and I'm finding it hard to believe that they didn't. Like Salonika, it was a massive and senseless massacre that conveniently explains the loss of men, materiel, and civilians, with no surviving witnesses to rebut the Sharks' story.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 11 April 2013, 19:24:25
The majority of the clans touman got decimated in Tukayyid. But because the clan lets warriors retire to other castes they allowed them to trial back to fill their ranks. So after Tukayyid, despite taking the most horrific losses possible there they had one of the strongest touman's in the clans. Staffed predominantly with Older Savvy Mechwarriors.

Tukayyid may also be the reason for our very wonky RAT's. Probably lost most of our omni's on that planet.

So after the freebirth units that were second line threw their lives away to help a couple of the true born mechwarriors get off planet they decided to allow freebirths into frontline combat units.

Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon needing to rebuild their touman then had the clans crusaders thrown at them in the harvest trials. So they ditched most of the crusader faction which tends also to be the group that suppresses freebirths.

Clan Diamond Shark died on Tukayyid. It was that factions final battle. (Though I suppose its death throes lasted through the great refusal)

They replaced their losses with a bunch of strategically minded Warden Merchant Warriors and have been Clan Sea Fox ever since. After this battle their tactics completely change and they start playing the long game.

The mention of the warriors gifted to clan coyote after this wreaking havoc makes me wonder if they didn't know quite a bit about the society, purged their own faction and got ready to get the hell out or if like has been mentioned they knew more about it than they let on.

Edit: Also Clan Wolf totally won the rights to Ian Hawker's legacy and they can have it. Bargained Well and Done. >.>
That's an interesting, and insightful, way of looking at it.




Something I'm wondering about: with only what, 5-6  Aimags per khanate(?) I can't imagine they caravan around in just that many groups with an entire Successor State (plus some) each.  Are Aimags therefore regularly broken down into binary/trinary sized units that travel separately?  What would you imagine the composition of one of these detachments is?  It would necessarily vary, I'm sure, but generally speaking.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 11 April 2013, 19:53:39
I think they can be broken down to lone jumpships when they are out in the boonies of the IS, like the Davion outback, or the neither regions of the former FWL states.   

This will likely be detailed in the upcoming products, I would imagine.   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Scrollreader on 11 April 2013, 19:59:32
My understanding is that the Aimags move somewhere, and then the fleet radiates out from that point 1-3 jumps, with each Jumpship having some sort of defensive force.  A few weeks later, they gather back together, and then all make a handful of jumps to a new center of trade and starting point and begin again.  There's some info in Touring the Stars
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 11 April 2013, 20:31:42
Hopefully that still holds true.  I don't see why it wouldn't, but I also wouldn't know for sure what's in store.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 April 2013, 23:21:06
Wellspring, one correction . . . only a single cluster from Omega was present on Tukayyid.  Yes they did get buried . . . and Omega took some later hits too.  The Ghost Bears retook the periphery world the Sharks had taken, losing two clusters to the Bears- which reaped some of them as abathka warriors.  Alpha and Gamma both lost two clusters . . . the injury is in those clusters representing bloodnamed and ristars.

While I am not contesting that the Dracs took the lines- I will have to read closer on the Foxes and the fallout.  It was more I wanted to see the materials remain in production on the general market.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 12 April 2013, 16:27:42
If so, Vinton was one of two things. As written, it could be seen as a betrayal: the Coyotes annihilating the unsuspecting Sharks and taking a world they might have gotten for free if they'd waited. (Much as the Cloud Cobras seized and conquered Nova Cat territories that they'd pledged to defend.) It might also represent a Coyote reprisal for an undisclosed betrayal by the Sharks, perhaps seeking to distance themselves from the scandal. Or... the whole thing could be a sham, with the Diamond Sharks emptying the world of civilians and equipment, then abandoning the planet to the Coyotes, except for a single tiny underwater enclave which the Blood Spirits later discovered. This last theory actually works whether the Sharks were working with the Society or not.

Either way, it's fishy that the Coyotes didn't occupy their prize after working so hard and bleeding so much to take it. The sharks had had years to empty that planet, and I'm finding it hard to believe that they didn't. Like Salonika, it was a massive and senseless massacre that conveniently explains the loss of men, materiel, and civilians, with no surviving witnesses to rebut the Sharks' story.

Vinton is a big ugly question mark. Something went on, and we aren't in the know. Vinton started getting raided relatively early on in the Wars of Reaving (with the bandits trying to knock out the HPG...why?), and then the HPG got infected by a nasty virus in January 3072. That's immediately after the Society/Coyotes decided to go into action; there wasn't time for outsiders to infiltrate the planet to plant the virus. It was an inside job, done by Shark scientists. That much is clear.

By then, the Adders and Vipers had forcefully convinced the Sharks to leave the Homeworlds in force. Vinton going dark quickened the matter, with merchant fleets being turned around mid-transit to head back towards the Inner Sphere. The Sharks weren't rampaging around like certain other Clans, and certainly posed no obvious short-term threats to the Society and their Coyote allies.

So why did the Coyotes invade Vinton in the first place? Why commit a staggering 3 Galaxies worth of troops and 3 Cluster of Society forces (a huge number of units for the Society to field in one place) to conquer it? They could have waited and taken over the planet at a later time, and used the forces to focus on the Adders/Vipers. The only things I can think of are either that:
a) There was something on Vinton that the Society desperately needed.
b) There was someone on Vinton that the Society desperately needed.

I'm not sure what they could have been looking for. Maybe the local Society cell went rogue after the initial strike on the HPG. Maybe someone learnt something they shouldn't have, and desperately needed to be taken out. Maybe someone on Vinton had developed some sort of technology able to deal with some of the Society threats, or maybe there was an ancient forgotten cache that needed to be taken care of. One thing is for sure: the Society, and in extension the Coyotes, wanted Vinton dead.

Then we have the Salonika incident in June 7032. I'm not quite sure on this, but that's roughly the amount of time it would take for a ship leaving Vinton immediately after the HPG blackout to get there. This suggests that the ships might have been infected by the HPG virus, stranding them in the system against their choice. But then why would it activate that late? The only explanation I've got: there were Society agents in the fleet. They disabled the ships. All of them. It explains why the merchants didn't flee the system before or during the last naval battle, only afterwards (the ships without Burrocks on them scattered as soon as they could). The Burrocks, once they won the massive naval battle, fixed their ships for them.

OK, that works. I just linked something together, though: Semi Kalasa left on the last mass convoy leaving Vinton. Mass convoy as in...60 JumpShips, 2 WarShips? She leaves the Homeworlds, possibly with some very important intel. Halfway through the journey, Society agents knock out the Shark JumpShip cores with a virus. What followed would have been an undocumented Shadow War between the Society traitors and the Watch agents seeking to root them out to extract a means of repairing the JumpShips.

This goes on until the Burrocks stumble across them. One thing leads to another, and the Diamond Shark escorts are completely destroyed. Kalasa, realizing she has to stay alive for whatever reason, lies low on one of the non-essential JumpShips. As fate would have it, the Burrocks fix their JumpShips and Kalasa manages to escape the main convoy (either through guesswork, luck, or by straight-up overpowering the Burrock guards. Many of these lower castemen, after all, would have been Warriors at one point in their lives). What happened to the original Society traitors? Probably weeded out and killed, either before the Burrocks arrived in-system or afterwards. On the other hand, they could have ended up on Tathis with the rest of the Shark stuff.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 12 April 2013, 16:42:08
The ER3145 mentions how the Combine took the Cat's production facilities from them.  (one of the reasons they felt the need to rebel)

Whether the Sharks ended up with some of them isn't specified.  It's certainly possible the Sharks made a deal to buy some of them, run them for a cut of the output, or simply launched Trials of Possesion for the lines they wanted.

Where does it say that the Combine took the Cat's production facilities? 

The reference I found talked about the Cat industries being dismantled after the Second Combine/Dominion War.  If they were dismantled we have no idea where the specs and equipment went.  The reference also mentions that it was the remaining industries which makes me think the Cats may have lost production capacity during the actual fighting during the war.  Until more information is known, I think it quite possible that the Foxes began producing at least some of the Nova Cat equipment.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 12 April 2013, 16:47:06
Vinton is a big ugly question mark. Something went on, and we aren't in the know. Vinton started getting raided relatively early on in the Wars of Reaving (with the bandits trying to knock out the HPG...why?), and then the HPG got infected by a nasty virus in January 3072. That's immediately after the Society/Coyotes decided to go into action; there wasn't time for outsiders to infiltrate the planet to plant the virus. It was an inside job, done by Shark scientists. That much is clear.

By then, the Adders and Vipers had forcefully convinced the Sharks to leave the Homeworlds in force. Vinton going dark quickened the matter, with merchant fleets being turned around mid-transit to head back towards the Inner Sphere. The Sharks weren't rampaging around like certain other Clans, and certainly posed no obvious short-term threats to the Society and their Coyote allies.

So why did the Coyotes invade Vinton in the first place? Why commit a staggering 3 Galaxies worth of troops and 3 Cluster of Society forces (a huge number of units for the Society to field in one place) to conquer it? They could have waited and taken over the planet at a later time, and used the forces to focus on the Adders/Vipers. The only things I can think of are either that:
a) There was something on Vinton that the Society desperately needed.
b) There was someone on Vinton that the Society desperately needed.

I'm not sure what they could have been looking for. Maybe the local Society cell went rogue after the initial strike on the HPG. Maybe someone learnt something they shouldn't have, and desperately needed to be taken out. Maybe someone on Vinton had developed some sort of technology able to deal with some of the Society threats, or maybe there was an ancient forgotten cache that needed to be taken care of. One thing is for sure: the Society, and in extension the Coyotes, wanted Vinton dead.

Then we have the Salonika incident in June 7032. I'm not quite sure on this, but that's roughly the amount of time it would take for a ship leaving Vinton immediately after the HPG blackout to get there. This suggests that the ships might have been infected by the HPG virus, stranding them in the system against their choice. But then why would it activate that late? The only explanation I've got: there were Society agents in the fleet. They disabled the ships. All of them. It explains why the merchants didn't flee the system before or during the last naval battle, only afterwards (the ships without Burrocks on them scattered as soon as they could). The Burrocks, once they won the massive naval battle, fixed their ships for them.

OK, that works. I just linked something together, though: Semi Kalasa left on the last mass convoy leaving Vinton. Mass convoy as in...60 JumpShips, 2 WarShips? She leaves the Homeworlds, possibly with some very important intel. Halfway through the journey, Society agents knock out the Shark JumpShip cores with a virus. What followed would have been an undocumented Shadow War between the Society traitors and the Watch agents seeking to root them out to extract a means of repairing the JumpShips.

This goes on until the Burrocks stumble across them. One thing leads to another, and the Diamond Shark escorts are completely destroyed. Kalasa, realizing she has to stay alive for whatever reason, lies low on one of the non-essential JumpShips. As fate would have it, the Burrocks fix their JumpShips and Kalasa manages to escape the main convoy (either through guesswork, luck, or by straight-up overpowering the Burrock guards. Many of these lower castemen, after all, would have been Warriors at one point in their lives). What happened to the original Society traitors? Probably weeded out and killed, either before the Burrocks arrived in-system or afterwards. On the other hand, they could have ended up on Tathis with the rest of the Shark stuff.

Thoughts?

Definitely right about one thing: the WoR is not a first-hand account.  Sometimes it's not even a second or third-hand account.   

We've had that conversation. Ghostbear jumped in to let us know that that is probably the correct way to view the WoR.  It's a collection of rough but by no means complete information that has been informed by a party far removed from actual events in many cases. 

Semi Kalasa had a vested interest in making sure the WoR document read as she felt it should be read.   She is said to hold Clan honor of the highest importance, but if she felt that the Home Clans are no longer truly Clan, then she could have her way with plenty of informational snippets, or at least, have her way in how they are spun.     

Where does it say that the Combine took the Cat's production facilities? 

Check the entry for the Fifth Sword of Light, iirc.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 12 April 2013, 16:52:17
Oh BTW another thing I noticed in ER:3145 is that we appear to be using Chainelane Isle inhabitants as a source of personnel. Chainelane characters can choose the Freeborn Sibko (Stage 2) life module, and get the In For Life/Clan Sea Fox trait. Looks like we're using them to create beefed up infantry/tank militias for our holdings out there.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 12 April 2013, 16:53:14
Definitely right about one thing: the WoR is not a first-hand account.  Sometimes it's not even a second or third-hand account.   

We've had that conversation. Ghostbear jumped in to let us know that that is probably the correct way to view the WoR.  It's a collection of rough but by no means complete information that has been informed by a party far removed from actual events in many cases. 

Ah, k, I'm going to have to read through the thread again.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 12 April 2013, 17:06:08
No prob, dude. 

Check pages 6 and 7, this will save you some time searching. I hope.  Unless you are busy with the search grind as I type this.   

And remember, he said nothing definite, he just hinted that that's the right way to view it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 12 April 2013, 17:17:24
Quote from: Tai Dai Cultist
The ER3145 mentions how the Combine took the Cat's production facilities from them.  (one of the reasons they felt the need to rebel)

Whether the Sharks ended up with some of them isn't specified.  It's certainly possible the Sharks made a deal to buy some of them, run them for a cut of the output, or simply launched Trials of Possesion for the lines they wanted.
Where does it say that the Combine took the Cat's production facilities? 

The reference I found talked about the Cat industries being dismantled after the Second Combine/Dominion War.  If they were dismantled we have no idea where the specs and equipment went.  The reference also mentions that it was the remaining industries which makes me think the Cats may have lost production capacity during the actual fighting during the war.  Until more information is known, I think it quite possible that the Foxes began producing at least some of the Nova Cat equipment.

Dismantled = took.  At least from the Cat's perspective... the Cats lost their factories because of what the Combine did.. ergo the Combine took them. 

As was pointed out in both our posts, we don't know what happened to the factories after they were denied to the Cats.  It could well be that the Sharks/Foxes swooped in and bought the peices, took them in a trial of possession, or offered a 'sweet' deal to the Combine to run the factories FOR the Dracs for a 'small' percentage.  Maybe the Combine set them up on other worlds far from the Cat 'cultural preservation districts' and are running them on their own domestically.  All we DO know is that after the Combine took the Cat's factories, they did something other than turn around and give them right back.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 12 April 2013, 23:52:59
Oh BTW another thing I noticed in ER:3145 is that we appear to be using Chainelane Isle inhabitants as a source of personnel. Chainelane characters can choose the Freeborn Sibko (Stage 2) life module, and get the In For Life/Clan Sea Fox trait. Looks like we're using them to create beefed up infantry/tank militias for our holdings out there.

I haven't seen this in the book yet.

Before it seemed like they were trying to use them as a buffer state to beef up the worlds they held there. But I'm not sure whats going on in the Chaineline islands other than its being a shadowrun setting for Sea Fox Characters.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 13 April 2013, 01:03:43
I'm not sure whats going on in the Chaineline islands other than its being a shadowrun setting for Sea Fox Characters.

 O0  Good description.   A little loose, no magic, no dragons as yet found and reported, but one never knows what the future holds.

With a whole cluster of stars there, I always wonder what else is going on that hasn't been revealed.   

I believe we have shipyards there too, iirc.  Hmmmm...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 April 2013, 17:44:42
O0  Good description.   A little loose, no magic, no dragons as yet found and reported, but one never knows what the future holds.

With a whole cluster of stars there, I always wonder what else is going on that hasn't been revealed.   

I believe we have shipyards there too, iirc.  Hmmmm...

We do have shipyards. Thats where we were dragging other clans warships for refit back when warships mattered. There are apparently some intelligence agencies there that out do us. I really do hope that more information is revealed soon.

I really want to know more of everything. I love how the Diamond Shark Watch is one of the meanest groups out there after the WoR.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gray Jaguar on 13 April 2013, 21:47:14
O0  Good description.   A little loose, no magic, no dragons as yet found and reported, but one never knows what the future holds.

With a whole cluster of stars there, I always wonder what else is going on that hasn't been revealed.   

I believe we have shipyards there too, iirc.  Hmmmm...

I believe we've found dragons there that take the form of Adders.  Its only a matter of time before they return with technology that is on par with what we view as magic.  Working HPGs, iATMs, Nova CEWS, WarShips, and likely some kind of strange new weapons and genetics we have no clue about.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 14 April 2013, 18:18:50
Vinton is a big ugly question mark. Something went on, and we aren't in the know. Vinton started getting raided relatively early on in the Wars of Reaving (with the bandits trying to knock out the HPG...why?), and then the HPG got infected by a nasty virus in January 3072. That's immediately after the Society/Coyotes decided to go into action; there wasn't time for outsiders to infiltrate the planet to plant the virus. It was an inside job, done by Shark scientists. That much is clear.

By then, the Adders and Vipers had forcefully convinced the Sharks to leave the Homeworlds in force. Vinton going dark quickened the matter, with merchant fleets being turned around mid-transit to head back towards the Inner Sphere. The Sharks weren't rampaging around like certain other Clans, and certainly posed no obvious short-term threats to the Society and their Coyote allies.

So why did the Coyotes invade Vinton in the first place?

(Snip...)

Thoughts?


Well, it's an interesting interpretation. A few quibbles. First: the HPG virus affected only HPGs and WarShips which mounted them. My understanding is that non-HPG equipped ships were not affected, nor were ordinary JumpShips. Of course, this could be disinformation, but that's my understanding.

Second, the Snake Alliance attacked the Sharks shortly after uniting against the Snow Ravens (Bearding of the Shark). However, the Cloud Cobras refused to participate (citing their recent combat losses). The Star Adders quit after a few token attacks. The Goliath Scorpions (clearly an early Snake ally, even if they never openly acknowledged it) never attacked at all. In the end, it was the Vipers, whose costly "victory" against second-line shark forces is questionable.

To my mind, I think what happened is this:

After fending off the Vipers, the Sharks had several years to relocate to the Inner Sphere. Their front-line galaxies were mostly occupied there, except for Beta, which established an enclave in the Chainelains. We know they abandoned most of their other worlds first, leaving Vinton as their last bastion. This makes a lot of sense-- it kept them out of most of the fighting, at least for a long time.

How would I have done a relocation? The thing is, moving millions of people across more than a thousand light years is a logistical nightmare. The Sharks helped the Bears and Cats do it; they knew exactly what they were getting into and had already been preparing for such an eventuality for a while. As the "logistics" clan, they were especially well-prepared for what was ahead. Oh, and BTW, they were selling to the Cats and Wolves in Exile? What do you think they were selling, exactly? If you were in those clans' merchant castes, what would you have bought? Mobile factories? Equipment for upgrading infrastructure? The stuff the Diamond Sharks were most likely to have been making (to sell) is precisely the stuff they needed for a quick resettlement. Shipments might well have been on the way long before the Wars of Reaving started.

I'd have started exploring the Deep Periphery in earnest years before, looking for some suitable hidden bases to house my civilians and production facilities. But maybe they're based in the near periphery, not having thought of it, or not having found any suitable settlement locations.

The Sharks lost 80 jumpships at Salonika. And they still have a massive fleet left over afterwards. So can we stipulate that they have more than enough JumpShips to make a massive command circuit? With 80 JumpShips, and 11 Mammoth-class DropShips modified to be filled with foot infantry bays, you can set up a circular chain (a "conveyor belt") that moves more than half a million people per trip across 1200 LY. Assuming no LiFusion batteries. Each "pulse" of the conveyor is a week apart, and each individual Mammoth's trip is 25 days (that's a full load, launch, go through the "conveyor", land, unload cycle), including 3 hours transiting from one jumpship to another through the conveyor.

(If you want me to explain this concept in detail, ask me in another thread or via PM. There are a number of refinements in the strategy that I'm omitting for simplicity. Such as measures for security in transit, recovery if there's a security breach, supplies, how to set up the conveyor in the minimum possible time, etc. I'm assuming 3 jump collars per jump point; you can add more or less to your taste. You need to have a site prepped to receive all those people, of course, but my plan also has the ability to spread the people out over multiple receiving worlds, and you can prep the planets while you're setting up the circuit.)

You could do it with 40 jumpships and three Mammoths, but with 80 JS and 11 Mammoths it can be a continually operating conveyor belt, moving more than half a million people per week. In two years, you could have moved the entire Diamond Shark Kerensky Cluster population to the Inner Sphere. This scales more or less linearly; with 160 JS / 21 DS, you can do it in just over a year. Obviously, that's just for the people; infrastructure requires more trips but moving 120 kilotons of cargo per week, and that's not counting the "static" cargo carried by the links in the chain but not used during conveyor mode. That's also assuming Mammoths rather than Behemoths, which makes more sense for non-perishable cargo. Five months setup time to get the command circuit in place. Add a few jumpships -- but not as many as you think -- if you are aiming for a longer trip.

OK so now I ask, why didn't the Sharks do it that way? They had plenty of time.

Greekfire identifies a few possible reasons for why things played out the way they did. I propose another: that the Sharks did move their entire civilian population, probably to a periphery world or worlds. That's their production area. They keep most of their civilians and factories safely out of harm's way. And why not, right? The Inner Sphere was burning up in Jihad, the Clans are massacring one another. What we see on Trondheim and the khanates is just the sales and marketing arm, including most of the military and intelligence apparatus. The rest of the clan, the civilian part, is safely ensconced out of view.

So how do you go from that many people to being a small, spread-out, largely space-based clan? Well, you start by having lots of branch offices, making it hard to count the population and production to begin with. The known Chainelane Isles enclave is useful in this regard because it's known but largely off-camera. Hell, it might well house all 66 million people right there; the population of the United Kingdom is roughly the same. Though I'd be surprised if the wily and cautious Sharks would be so foolish as to put their population all in one place, and all in the natural invasion path of the Star Adders.

At that point, the rest is spin. Assume that both Vinton and Salonika were (exaggerated/staged/never happened). What changes? The only witnesses other than the Sharks to Salonika were Burrocks, now dead. And maybe some wreckage, which could be anything. The only witnesses to Vinton were the Society-affiliated Coyotes (Shark allies, also now dead), the Shark survivors, and the Blood Spirits who arrived later to find the last survivors, who can once again only attest that 1) the planet was in ruins, and 2) it was mostly emptied. Everyone assumes that the iceberg died in those two battles, and that the part we see is all there is. Not prepping to kill us all or destroy the oceans or something, simply doing what the Shark Foxes do best: playing it low-key and making a killing.

Anyway, that's my theory.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 14 April 2013, 20:01:31
I really can't wait for the next field reporting. Kind of wondering if the 422nd cluster is just whats left of zeta galaxy rolled into Sigma.

Is there a timeline anywhere for the wars of reaving? I haven't seen one. =\
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 14 April 2013, 21:21:01
I really can't wait for the next field reporting. Kind of wondering if the 422nd cluster is just whats left of zeta galaxy rolled into Sigma.

Is there a timeline anywhere for the wars of reaving? I haven't seen one. =\

Sarna has one. I've been compiling my own summary, but it's very incomplete.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 14 April 2013, 22:09:35
Sarna has one. I've been compiling my own summary, but it's very incomplete.

I keep trying to put together scenarios for my friends to play through. :) But its hard with the way the information is presented.

On another side note about the previous conversation, in the founders future section the first paragraph for diamond sharks they admit that they had some of their own trouble with the society. I would think that the great majority of information presented in the book is factual and true. Despite being recovered from various sources. The 'In Character' and 'faction perception' writing style simply allows the writers to retcon what they want by saying that the authors and information were wrong. Its a good easy out. So I'm not sure that the accounts would be false. :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 14 April 2013, 22:41:20
I believe we've found dragons there that take the form of Adders.  Its only a matter of time before they return with technology that is on par with what we view as magic.  Working HPGs, iATMs, Nova CEWS, WarShips, and likely some kind of strange new weapons and genetics we have no clue about.

Another good answer.   ;D

Unfortunately for them, the Clans killed their metaphorical brains during the Wars of Reaving, and they have to regrow that organ.  Maybe the IS has a chance to keep up.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 15 April 2013, 04:57:19
Working HPGs aren't going to be a part of it. Between Bonfire and ER3145, its pretty clear that the problem's not the HPGs but hyperspace itself
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 15 April 2013, 07:02:25
Well, I'll agree that the problem isn't with the HPGs themselves at least.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 15 April 2013, 14:57:56
I keep trying to put together scenarios for my friends to play through. :) But its hard with the way the information is presented.

On another side note about the previous conversation, in the founders future section the first paragraph for diamond sharks they admit that they had some of their own trouble with the society. I would think that the great majority of information presented in the book is factual and true. Despite being recovered from various sources. The 'In Character' and 'faction perception' writing style simply allows the writers to retcon what they want by saying that the authors and information were wrong. Its a good easy out. So I'm not sure that the accounts would be false. :)

I mostly agree. But Ben has been pretty clear that he left some intentional plot bombs in there, stuff that in retrospect we'll say, "ah HA! He was planning this all along!" when we go back and re-read it.

In some cases, I think it will take the form of phrasing that's literally true, but where if we make the logical assumptions we'll be mislead. And other cases where stuff is left out entirely. In that sense, the Sharks aren't above a few judicious lies, but also are sensible enough to tell an almost-entirely-true version of events. An account that's easily falsified is counterproductive.

The fun comes from trying to predict whether Ben will zig or zag. A game we can't win, but that's fun to play.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gray Jaguar on 16 April 2013, 08:33:43
I mostly agree. But Ben has been pretty clear that he left some intentional plot bombs in there, stuff that in retrospect we'll say, "ah HA! He was planning this all along!" when we go back and re-read it.

In some cases, I think it will take the form of phrasing that's literally true, but where if we make the logical assumptions we'll be mislead. And other cases where stuff is left out entirely. In that sense, the Sharks aren't above a few judicious lies, but also are sensible enough to tell an almost-entirely-true version of events. An account that's easily falsified is counterproductive.

The fun comes from trying to predict whether Ben will zig or zag. A game we can't win, but that's fun to play.

Curious a game where the only winning move is not to play...

How about a nice game of Chess?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 17 April 2013, 13:38:45
[Skimmed previous conversations, so if this is covered I apologize]

My Take on Clan Sea Fox

The Khanates have seem to have their own territories, with the 'borders' of them being fairly porous to their neighbours.  The ilKhanate can move wherever it likes, and probably is centred on the Republic of the Sphere territories and/or the Clan OZ's in order to capitalize on the most markets and to defend Twycross, Itabiana, and Trondheim.

Each nation has probably 1-3 enclaves, consisting of areas no bigger than a small continent (ie: Australia or smaller), in the various Inner Sphere States which they use for local manufacturing, spare parts for the Khanates, and raising of civilians and sibkos.  After all, while being spacebourne has its advantages, it is ALWAYS better to spend SOME time on an actual world for the human body.

Each Khanate is organized similar to a Galaxy, with Aimag's taking the place of Clusters.  As such, there is probably an average of 5 Aimags to each Khanate, each with the equivalent of 1 Cluster of troops on hand.  Each of these Aimag's would probably form a Transport Binary, centred around the CargoShip of the Aimag.  Alpha Aimag, the "Keshik" Aimag, would have an ArcShip flagship instead of the usual (presumably smaller) CargoShip.

Each Cluster attached to the Aimag would probably consist of 3 Binaries/Trinaries of Aerospace fighters and 2-3 Supernova's of Ground Forces.  These are probably 1 Supernova of mechs/Battle armour, and one of armoured vehicles/Infantry.

As such, Clan Sea Fox PROBABLY has:

20 CargoShips
5 ArcShips
25 Clusters of Troops

Not bad for a group with only 3 planets of their own!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jimdigris on 17 April 2013, 17:46:50
I would estimate 7 arcships.  Each is a converted Potemkin, and they ended the Jihad with four.  Then, they traded with the Ravens for three more.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 17 April 2013, 18:15:22
That would be 8 ArcShips then as they received four not three.

I have no idea how the individual clusters are organized, but the Tiburon entry points to the Aimags having multiple clusters each.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 17 April 2013, 18:50:56
That would be 8 ArcShips then as they received four not three.

Three Potemkins and a Volga.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 17 April 2013, 20:17:43
The three ships we've seen in fiction were a Potemkin ArcShip, a former SovSoy Cruiser CargoShip, and a Cargo ship with the traits of a Potemkin, but never stated as such.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 17 April 2013, 22:00:25
I love how Antoinette Labov personifies the Sea Fox clan in appearance.

Maybe our Khan and Sakhan used to. But I like that general aesthetic. Spending as much time as they do on ships I like the ethereal feel to them.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 30 April 2013, 18:07:15
Wellspring and I have been talking in a few different threads and going through some books.

So re-reading about Clan Sea Fox in Klondike, its really impressive that the clan chooses to stay honorable and not further itself by bashing on another clan. Or holding any petty grudges against anyone really.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 30 April 2013, 18:30:41
Wellspring and I have been talking in a few different threads and going through some books.

So re-reading about Clan Sea Fox in Klondike, its really impressive that the clan chooses to stay honorable and not further itself by bashing on another clan. Or holding any petty grudges against anyone really.

I wouldn't say that honour is the issue here. More of thinking about the profit margins and what feuds with other clans would do to your bottom line
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 30 April 2013, 18:35:51
I wouldn't say that honour is the issue here. More of thinking about the profit margins and what feuds with other clans would do to your bottom line

The honor bit actually has more to do with them not jumping at the chance to absorb other clans when the opportunity presented itself. They didn't want to strengthen themselves through another clans misfortune... Otherwise, though, I agree with you.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 30 April 2013, 23:55:25
I wouldn't say that honour is the issue here. More of thinking about the profit margins and what feuds with other clans would do to your bottom line

The honor bit actually has more to do with them not jumping at the chance to absorb other clans when the opportunity presented itself. They didn't want to strengthen themselves through another clans misfortune... Otherwise, though, I agree with you.

Actually I think you're both right. Grudges are very expensive, first. And, second, big flashy takeovers are dangerous-- just ask the Star Adders. Third, I find it very telling that the Sharks are the only ones to under-state the size and experience of their Touman; with that in mind, growing in loud and proud way is really counter-productive because you make yourself a target. Finally, yeah, perhaps a sense of morality is at play. The Founder didn't create Clan Kerensky and leave it at that-- the whole idea was for twenty clans to compete with one another, grow strong through competition, and keep one another honest. Every time a clan goes away, that vision is eroded.

You know what else? Anyone who's been in a hostile takeover knows that preserving your corporate culture afterwards is very hard. Sometimes you take over the other company, and yet they somehow win. Or as someone nicely put it a few months back, you are what you eat.

Now that I think of it, there's lots of good reasons to grow organically rather than by Absorption.

PS I do think that the Sea Foxes took a very different lesson from the Wolverine Annihilation than everyone else. Realistically, the Sea Foxes weren't all that different in ideology from the Wolverines. After a moment of "that could have been us", instead of setting their own house in order by enforcing clan orthodoxy as others did, they put their heads down and concentrated on avoiding being a target. They made themselves indispensable in clan commerce, built an economy that made them a dangerous target, avoided getting involved in politics or even calling too much attention to themselves. But still they kept their essential unique culture.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 01 May 2013, 00:12:53
The section Ebbing Enthusiasm in field manual clans and the section before it talks about it predominantly and mentions both things. Grudges aren't profitable. But also, clan sea fox is honorable (Because the totem bows to its prey before attacking it) and takes pride in it. (though it thinks zellbrigen is kind of stupid. Honorable and practical. Odd combination)

I also enjoy the fact that when we're not eating it hard in operation revival or losing all our jumpships to the burrocks that we tend to rip enemies apart with superior warriors. In Secondline machines, or frontline machines. We've given a good accounting of ourselves since Tukayyid. (Where we did not.)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 01 May 2013, 00:43:44
We've given a good accounting of ourselves since Tukayyid. (Where we did not.)

I still always wonder if there was some sort of deliberate throwing of the fighting at Tukayyid. Did the Sharks gain anything
through losing there?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 01 May 2013, 03:32:14
Kitsune, would you say that the aftermath of Tukkayid lead to the Clan getting leadership to counter Hawker?
I know that Hawker's had to defend his Bloodname from being Reaved, and that the Wolves, somehow, got
the rights to his legacy..but..

Could the Merchant Caste have arranged the loss knowing that they could replace the warriors with bloodnamed
retired Warriors, thus skewing the Clan Council in their favour? Were the Sharks that ruthless?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 01 May 2013, 08:45:36
I don't think they arranged it, as they weren't in any kind of league with Focht - that we know of.  But they allowed the Crusader portion of their Touman to to rush headlong into the battle.  The Fox Sharks have been known for employing solid battlefield strategy in the past.  Even if other Clans dislike that, the Fox Sharks do it anyway, from Klondike on up.  I don't think they arranged for the fiasco of Tukayyid so much as they simply allowed the Crusaders to die though their shortsighted plans and simplistic view of combat, with only their own dogma as comfort. 

After all, the Crusaders had been trying to reverse a lot of their more-liberal practices, so after the Diamond Sharks were able to get into revival, the true leadership of the Clan had little or no more use for them since they don't just rock the boat, they think they know better about how to navigate, and want to take over. Basically. 


edit: and yes, I have seen somewhere that the Clan's true leadership "allowed" the Crusaders to come to power for purposes of harnessing their energy and drive to get into Revival.   I forget exactly where (FM: WC?), but I would bet someone else here who knows their Fox Sharks does indeed have the page number and possible multi-sources.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 01 May 2013, 09:13:53
Kitsune, would you say that the aftermath of Tukkayid lead to the Clan getting leadership to counter Hawker?

Angus Labov was merchant factor during Tukayyid, and he certainly moved to counter Hawker's influence. Just as Hawker pushed through his changes to the clan as "wartime emergency measures", Labov reversed many of them as emergency measures to quickly resurrect the touman.

Hawker withdrew a little after Tukayyid. He'd had exactly the force of fervent trueborn Crusaders that he'd wanted, and used the frontal attacks that he felt were especially clan-like. And had their dorsal fins handed to them.

It's perfectly possible that he'd questioned his own decisions. Equally, all those bloodnamed crusaders who died at Tukayyid were his base of support in the Clan Council. Then comes a flood of warden reservists back into the touman in their stead. In WoK, Phalen points out that an Invading Clan's khan is much more autocratic because the clan council can't monitor and vote on such a broad expanse of territory. Well, by being booted from the IS, Hawker's suddenly and firmly back under his clan council's thumb. Finally, the pre-Tukayyid challenges were military and political-- Hawker's forte. Post-Tukayyid, they were administrative and logistical. He might simply have lacked the interest and ability to handle these "details" and let power slip from his fingers as a result.

I know that Hawker's had to defend his Bloodname from being Reaved, and that the Wolves, somehow, got the rights to his legacy..but..

Hawker did still manage the Diamond Sharks' foreign policy, even after Tukayyid. My recollection is that he organized a relief force to save the Smoke Jaguars, and Khan Vlad stopped him by challenging him to a Trial of Possession for his own genetic legacy. Hawker lost, Vlad contemptuously refused to accept him as a bondsman, and while the Sharks swore they'd regain exclusive control over the legacy, they never did.

Could the Merchant Caste have arranged the loss knowing that they could replace the warriors with bloodnamed retired Warriors, thus skewing the Clan Council in their favour? Were the Sharks that ruthless?

It's common in history to blame a military disaster on domestic political opponents, traitors who ruined everything through secret acts of sabotage. Every once in a blue moon, it's even true.

I'm sure the crusaders blamed "spies and hoarders and wreckers" and such in the merchant caste, but it's really hard to put the blame anywhere but Hawker. Rebs is right, he didn't need any help being destroyed. Those were all his decisions-- changes from Diamond Shark tradition that he'd imposed-- and they were also meant as a showcase for what he would do with the rest of the clan when he came back from Tukayyid triumphant.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 01 May 2013, 17:12:29
edit: and yes, I have seen somewhere that the Clan's true leadership "allowed" the Crusaders to come to power for purposes of harnessing their energy and drive to get into Revival.   I forget exactly where (FM: WC?), but I would bet someone else here who knows their Fox Sharks does indeed have the page number and possible multi-sources.

I've never seen it... but I think it's probably true. I think you and I have speculated on this in the past. Hawker was many things, but you can't deny he was as close to a Faux Smoke Jaguar as the Sharks were likely to produce. He certainly gave the Sharks a makeover that suddenly made them possible, if still unlikely, invasion participants.

I think even the Wardens knew that an invasion was inevitable. Why waste energy standing on a losing principle? If the clans are going to invade no matter what, at least let's get in on the action, maybe grab an OZ of our own, and, oh by the way, we're more likely to influence the invasion if we're part of it than if we're sulking on the sidelines.

Were the Sharks that ruthless?

Oops, almost forgot. No, I don't think they arranged Tukayyid. Hawker's decisions were entirely his own; they were meant to defy Diamond Shark customs. I think bidding in Omega was Sennet's idea, even. Which saved them. Otherwise, the crappy bidding, the poor intelligence, the bad supply lines, the dumb frontal charge, that was all Hawker. Had he won, every trueborn-but-not-bloodnamed warrior in those clusters would have gotten a Bloodname nomination eventually. The clan council would have been dominated by Crusaders for a generation. His new ideas would have been vindicated, and the reforms turned from emergency measures into state policy. But he lost, so it all fell apart. The only people he can blame are himself and the Com Guards.

But with that said, yes, the merchants really are that ruthless.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 01 May 2013, 17:36:31
OK three unanswered posts in a row, I'm probably breaking some law of nature, but here goes.

Someone was saying that the Sea Foxes are honorable. I prefer to put it this way:

The Sea Foxes are "honorable".

There, much better. The Foxes are notorious for creative bidding, combined arms, breaking zellbrigen, cross-caste cooperation, trading rather than honorable combat, and demanding collateral on Trials of Possession. There's always a rationale, a legalism that lets them get away with it. The only clan that plays this fast and loose with Clan honor are the Wolves.

Now, with that said, the only example of Sea Fox honoring opponents that I have so far is from FM:WC, where the garrison Sigma Galaxy "honors" their opponents by breaking zellbrigen if they face OmniMechs (ie if they face a front line force). The argument goes a little like this:

Quote from: Rebs or Kitsune or me or some other Sea Fox
Oh no, we agree, you are really big and strong and scary. The reputation of the Seventh Nephrite Parakeets is unquestioned. We of the 23rd strike cluster are, in comparison, a mere garrison galaxy of freebirths. No doubt your boasts that any of you is worth ten of us is correct. We honor that strength by admitting that the only way we can give you a worthy contest is by forgoing the rite of Zellbrigen.

Oh, by the way, I hope you dug fox holes, because we packed artillery, too.

This only goes for Sigma Galaxy, but it really does embody the spirit of the clan. With that said, you wouldn't see this behavior from a front line cluster. The Sea Foxes aren't a clan you want to break clan honor with, because they're all pretty rigorously trained in what the clans call "dirty fighting" and what everyone else calls "war".

At their worst, the Sea Foxes are the embodiment of every cheesy clan player you've ever faced in a pickup game who found some tortuous excuse to drop clan honor like it's Jennifer Aniston. Too soon? At their best, they play by clan honor rules, but won't let that page-quoting guy in the anorak lawyer his way into walking all over them.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 01 May 2013, 23:12:25
Kitsune, would you say that the aftermath of Tukkayid lead to the Clan getting leadership to counter Hawker?
I know that Hawker's had to defend his Bloodname from being Reaved, and that the Wolves, somehow, got
the rights to his legacy..but..

After the Warrior Castes failure on Takuyyid Barbara Sennet gets even more political clout and Merchant Factor Labov effectively seizes control of the clan.

Something I didn't realize lately is that Clan Diamond Shark / Sea Fox is apolitical. They tried to avoid having crusader or warden leanings. Being neutral let them sell to both sides. When the time for the invasion came they actually wanted access to Inner Sphere markets. But they also feel like their clan is what Kerensky's vision is supposed to be. All the castes working in union. This also means they severely disagreed with the more crusader minded clans opinions of the inner sphere.

Clan Smoke Jaguar and Clan Diamond Sea Shark Fox are diametric opposites.

Quote
Could the Merchant Caste have arranged the loss knowing that they could replace the warriors with bloodnamed
retired Warriors, thus skewing the Clan Council in their favour? Were the Sharks that ruthless?

They lost a lot of really good officers. So probably not. Ian Hawker was a bit of a toy soldier. He had an alliance with one of the Jade Falcon Khans that let his Diamond Keshik participate in invasions of their worlds. He over valued his own troops so he bid lower than he should have. Though, the Sharks had done really well in any combat they came across. (Except the bid to invade. They did  ok there) But then he decided that he wanted to follow the clan way of a frontal assault.

I wonder how much would have changed if he wasn't influenced by a Jade Falcon Khan?

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 01 May 2013, 23:24:27
Equally, all those bloodnamed crusaders who died at Tukayyid were his base of support in the Clan Council.


And maybe not even that. He didn't get the entire clans vote on whether they should invade or not and several blood named warriors were going to take him on for it. But pragmaticism since they'd be invading the inner sphere soon stayed their hand.

Barbara Sennet forwarded most of the Crusaders in the clan to harvest trials when the opportunity presented itself. But not in Alpha Galaxy, but alot of Alpha Galaxy joined the others. Cleansing the Touman.

Quote
Then comes a flood of warden reservists back into the touman in their stead.

Who didn't get to vote...

Quote
Hawker's suddenly and firmly back under his clan council's thumb. Finally, the pre-Tukayyid challenges were military and political-- Hawker's forte. Post-Tukayyid, they were administrative and logistical. He might simply have lacked the interest and ability to handle these "details" and let power slip from his fingers as a result.

His final quote before his "retirement" says he wasn't made for an age of peace.

Quote
Hawker did still manage the Diamond Sharks' foreign policy, even after Tukayyid. My recollection is that he organized a relief force to save the Smoke Jaguars

Which shows how much he really liked Crusaders because there is a stiff rivalry there.

Quote
It's common in history to blame a military disaster on domestic political opponents, traitors who ruined everything through secret acts of sabotage. Every once in a blue moon, it's even true.

I wouldn't be surprised if the trial for his genetic legacy wasn't tipped off. Or more likely, traded off.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 01 May 2013, 23:35:24
  There's always a rationale, a legalism that lets them get away with it.

which we haven't really seen since the wolves. I enjoy how typically hilarious the rationale is.

Quote
Now, with that said, the only example of Sea Fox honoring opponents that I have so far is from FM:WC, where the garrison Sigma Galaxy "honors" their opponents by breaking zellbrigen if they face OmniMechs (ie if they face a front line force). The argument goes a little like this:

This only goes for Sigma Galaxy, but it really does embody the spirit of the clan. With that said, you wouldn't see this behavior from a front line cluster. The Sea Foxes aren't a clan you want to break clan honor with, because they're all pretty rigorously trained in what the clans call "dirty fighting" and what everyone else calls "war".

The Foxes Whelps will treat you with the respect you treat them.

But even during the reaving when the other clans decided it was time for the sharks to go they held onto worlds using physical attacks and skirting the lines of honorable behavior, waiting for the other side to break zellbrigen. So they could hit them with everything.

I think, perhaps, Clan Sea Fox's definition of honor has nothing to do with the clans definition of honor. They are too pragmatic for that. I think it lends itself more to respecting your foe than following a code of conduct that doesn't make any sense. Then again, they usually respect their opponent enough to aerospace strafe them at the earliest opportunity.

Though it apparently doesn't stop them from making fun of a snow ravens khan on the chatterweb after a successful trial.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 02 May 2013, 01:35:57
Something that always kind of stood out to me about the Foxes-sharks-foxes was that, while they used the same
terms, the meant things slightly different. Their Clusters were 6 Trinary Clusters, as opposed to other Clans 3-5 Trinary
Clusters, their Galaxies were 6 Cluster Galaxies. Was this really to hide their strength? Or was it something they just
did to be different? (Think about this: a Shark Galaxy would have 36 Trinaries, while other clans would have, at most,
25 Trinaries. This means that 2 Shark Galaxies would be only 3 Trinaries short of being 3 full Galaxies for any other Clan)

Why resort to the subterfuge? Was it to hide their strength? Was it to be able to spread forces guarding their merchants
further afield?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 02 May 2013, 08:11:21
Something that always kind of stood out to me about the Foxes-sharks-foxes was that, while they used the same
terms, the meant things slightly different. Their Clusters were 6 Trinary Clusters, as opposed to other Clans 3-5 Trinary
Clusters, their Galaxies were 6 Cluster Galaxies. Was this really to hide their strength? Or was it something they just
did to be different? (Think about this: a Shark Galaxy would have 36 Trinaries, while other clans would have, at most,
25 Trinaries. This means that 2 Shark Galaxies would be only 3 Trinaries short of being 3 full Galaxies for any other Clan)

Why resort to the subterfuge? Was it to hide their strength? Was it to be able to spread forces guarding their merchants
further afield?


They did understate their overall strength, but not quite as you say.

Their six trinary clusters were for front-line and second-line galaxies only, and those had four clusters per Galaxy. Also, the additional front line Trinary consisted of a strategic command star and a support Binary. I'm assuming vehicles in the binary, right? Anyway, that's 24 Trinaries per galaxy, rather than 25 in the canonical clan Galaxy.

Garrison clusters are actually undersize; a fact that isn't really all that noticeable since garrison trinaries often deploy separately anyway. This is typical for the Clans.

The Diamond Sharks were the only clan to understate their strength, according to Stormfury's spreadsheets (which I urge you to download and go through). The Blood Spirits used canonical original Nicholas Kerensky-style Galaxies, so their force estimates are precisely correct. All other clans over-stated their strength. I'm assuming the Sea Foxes do the same?

Why? I think the Sharks prefer being quietly effective over empty bluster. When their touman was gutted, what did the Jade Falcons do? Go on the attack, of course! They had to prove to themselves and the universe that they were still mighty. The Sharks retreated, regrouped, and rebuilt. They didn't advertise, but they certainly didn't deny to themselves that they were in trouble. And they were back in no time.

I think they realize that being perceived as too strong makes them a target. It complicates bidding. It draws attention. Far better to be quietly competent. Too strong to risk picking on, but not so strong that you need to worry about them. Quiet competence, rather than bluster and braggadocio.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 02 May 2013, 18:22:37
They are definitely masters of the art of misdirection.  Still, I wonder what they are really up to.  I wonder about the goings on in the Chainalane Isles and the cluster that they jacked.  The shipyards there, the resources, the factions vying for power if not survival.  As well as the Clan Protectorate front store, the Twycross and Tukayyid bases and all the others too.  Quite a different faction than those who came before them.  Quantifying their holdings, their force and capabilities requires a lot more study than being a fan of the other Clans.  They keep secrets even from their selves, it seems.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 02 May 2013, 18:27:00
Well I don't know about keeping secrets from themselves. But yes, it is kind of terrifying that we assume we are making rediculous amounts of money but have no idea what we're doing with it.

In the past they made sure their infrastructure and touman was top notch. But hopefully keeping everything in the chaineline islands contentious and at eachothers throat isn't a prelude to what we plan to do in the inner spher-... what... we are doing in the inner sphere

With the davions...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 02 May 2013, 18:44:48
Well I don't know about keeping secrets from themselves. But yes, it is kind of terrifying that we assume we are making rediculous amounts of money but have no idea what we're doing with it.

In the past they made sure their infrastructure and touman was top notch. But hopefully keeping everything in the chaineline islands contentious and at each others throat isn't a prelude to what we plan to do in the inner spher-... what... we are doing in the inner sphere

With the davions...

It remains to be seen.  Word is we've got as far as the Calderon Protectorate (iirc).  If my favorite Clan could somehow hook up with the true inheritors of the periphery faction I used to like the best...  well, that would be too cool to ever happen so I'll stop there before I mess it all up by forgetting that nukes are pretty common in that part of the universe.

As for the secrets, it's little things.  In FM Warden Clans a galaxy disapears, is said to exist but was unaccounted for (it was Alpha Galaxy, and it was taking over in the Chainelanes), or Semi Kalasa's crafting of the Wars of Reaving Document.   

Secrets are often a part of business, so I have no problems with the Foxes doing that in a report to be read by all other Clans (who are largely anti-business in action) like both of the FM: WC and the WoR.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 02 May 2013, 18:49:30
Keeping the entire universe at war is lucrative for business. But I'm just hoping that we are nicer guys than that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Klat on 03 May 2013, 00:39:18
Out of curiosity where did you guys find that cool sea fox emblem?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 04 May 2013, 01:44:01
just do a search in google. it pops up right quick and in a hurry. :D

So out of curiousity, why do Ghost Bears and Hells Horses get advanced elemental training in a time of war? FM:WC says that Clan Diamond Shark has five exclusive bloodnames that are insanely good elementals. Whats with that?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Klat on 04 May 2013, 01:45:51
just do a search in google. it pops up right quick and in a hurry. :D

Mmm... Tried that and got one with a white background  ???
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 04 May 2013, 01:56:42
You have my permission to right click save mine and use it. :D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 04 May 2013, 05:53:29
just do a search in google. it pops up right quick and in a hurry. :D

So out of curiousity, why do Ghost Bears and Hells Horses get advanced elemental training in a time of war? FM:WC says that Clan Diamond Shark has five exclusive bloodnames that are insanely good elementals. Whats with that?

Because the Advanced Elemental Training is a special program that the training protocols have not left Hell's Horses or
Ghost Bear because the other Clans, while they may have good Elementals, do not have a culture that so integrates
Elementals to the extent that the Bears and Horses do. I mean, outside of the Jaguars and their "we eat steel plates
because the scientists told us we need more iron in our diet" Khans, how many Clans have had Elementals rise to their
Khanship and saKhanship outside of the Hell's Horses and Ghost Bears?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 04 May 2013, 07:03:07
It's not as unusual as you'd think for elementals to advance to high position.  Biccon Winters of the Nova Cats was an elemental and she served as Oathmaster.  Klaus Harper, the Snow Raven Loremaster, was an elemental.  In the DA, Patrik Fetladral of the Wolves in Exiles is an elemental as well.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 04 May 2013, 09:53:29
just do a search in google. it pops up right quick and in a hurry. :D

So out of curiousity, why do Ghost Bears and Hells Horses get advanced elemental training in a time of war? FM:WC says that Clan Diamond Shark has five exclusive bloodnames that are insanely good elementals. Whats with that?

The FM explains it... not only have the Sharks traded for DNA and breeding protocols (especially w/ the Horses, their former neighbors on Strato Domingo).

The shark foxes also (like the vipers) have extra-large sibkos. The vipers did it so they could have super-stringent Trials of Position (which for statistical reasons I've explained elsewhere actually doesn't improve the quality of your warriors). The Foxes did it so they could be more daring with their genetic experiments while still having a good number of new warriors.

Of the three major phenotypes, only Elementals have been a clear, obvious, unqualified success. Mechwarriors seem better overall but the best Inner Sphere mechwarriors can still compete. The aerospace phenotype is (IMO) a failure. Now, the real question is this: do the sharks have so many elemental bloodlines because it's the one with the strongest competitive advantage, or did the sharks' decision to focus on elemental breeding raise the quality of the phenotype overall?

We're about to find out. As the Sea Foxes, we're probably watching the birth of an aerospace-focused clan. Plus an infusion of freeborn genes into the eugenics program. Will the aerospace phenotype finally see some progress? Or will they go the way of the ghost bears and throw out the phenotype altogether and start over?


BTW to StCptMara, wasn't Lincoln Osis an Elemental? Not just a khan, but the ilKhan! Elementals are not often Khans, but they're not vanishingly rare, either. On the other hand, since there are so many more elementals than mechwarriors, your personal probability if you are an elemental of making high office is very low. Probably because you'll get massacred in augmented Trials.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 04 May 2013, 12:43:13
Because the Advanced Elemental Training is a special program that the training protocols have not left Hell's Horses

I didnt consider that it was training and not breeding. Good call. :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 04 May 2013, 13:09:05
Mmm... Tried that and got one with a white background  ???

It's on page one of this thread  O0    It has the nice transparent background that blends with the site. 

I used to use it.  I'll use it again if we think we can drown out a whole thread's page in a sea of Sea Fox clone avatars using the chatterweb like they own it or something...   :))
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 04 May 2013, 13:28:51
The FM explains it... not only have the Sharks traded for DNA and breeding protocols (especially w/ the Horses, their former neighbors on Strato Domingo).

The shark foxes also (like the vipers) have extra-large sibkos. The vipers did it so they could have super-stringent Trials of Position (which for statistical reasons I've explained elsewhere actually doesn't improve the quality of your warriors). The Foxes did it so they could be more daring with their genetic experiments while still having a good number of new warriors.

Of the three major phenotypes, only Elementals have been a clear, obvious, unqualified success. Mechwarriors seem better overall but the best Inner Sphere mechwarriors can still compete. The aerospace phenotype is (IMO) a failure. Now, the real question is this: do the sharks have so many elemental bloodlines because it's the one with the strongest competitive advantage, or did the sharks' decision to focus on elemental breeding raise the quality of the phenotype overall?

We're about to find out. As the Sea Foxes, we're probably watching the birth of an aerospace-focused clan. Plus an infusion of freeborn genes into the eugenics program. Will the aerospace phenotype finally see some progress? Or will they go the way of the ghost bears and throw out the phenotype altogether and start over?


BTW to StCptMara, wasn't Lincoln Osis an Elemental? Not just a khan, but the ilKhan! Elementals are not often Khans, but they're not vanishingly rare, either. On the other hand, since there are so many more elementals than mechwarriors, your personal probability if you are an elemental of making high office is very low. Probably because you'll get massacred in augmented Trials.

I always imagine the Sea Fox Elemental corps to be top-notch space marines.  And personally, Elementals who fail their Trial of position would make great merchant marine candidates, similar to the police subcaste in that they failed to qualify for first or second line duty, but had advanced so far in their training that they still represent a pricey investment in time and training to just demote to be a laborer.   If they had flushed out a year earlier, that's different I imagine.   

Not just Lincoln Osis, but Hannibal Banacek too was an ilKhan Elemental. 

Also, Khan Dejarassi and I think Kelton Myers too, were Elemental Khans and saKhans for the Scorpions, who are also big into Elementals, just without the pedigree of Bears and Horses.  Drugs and advanced scientific technique are too dangerous to combine even for them.   O:-)

Wasn't Raina Montose an elemental who pilots a 'Mech?  She looks and seems like a healthy-sized warrior  I could be wrong on that one, but it would make sense. 

Constans Cluff of the Blood Spirits also :)  Definitely an Elemental.   

And Klaus Harper was an Elemental Loremaster for the Ravens, who declined nomination for saKhan and then conflict for the post of Khan, deferring to Lynn McKenna basically.

Elementals get their due, no doubt.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 04 May 2013, 13:45:27
It's on page one of this thread  O0    It has the nice transparent background that blends with the site. 

I used to use it.  I'll use it again if we think we can drown out a whole thread's page in a sea of Sea Fox clone avatars using the chatterweb like they own it or something...   :))

Maybe we can find a way to induce HikageMaru to draw up some updated and customized Sea Fox banners and avatars.

I always imagine the Sea Fox Elemental corps to be top-notch space marines.  And personally, Elementals who fail their Trial of position would make great merchant marine candidates, similar to the police subcaste in that they failed to qualify for first or second line duty, but had advanced so far in their training that they still represent a pricey investment in time and training to just demote to be a laborer.   If they had flushed out a year earlier, that's different I imagine. 

I agree about the marines-- but remember, these are still warriors-- even the garrisons and police force are officially warriors. Per Warriors of Kerensky, they're their own (very low status) subcaste (see pg 34 and 62-63), composed of freeborns and test-downs.

Now, I'm assuming here that they don't mean warriors who tested down on their initial Trial of Position. From the novels and sourcebooks (including other parts of WoK) it's clear that most of these end up as Scientists or other castes. However, warriors do have to re-test periodically, with failed Trials leading to demotion. Presumably, a warrior who tests down after joining the warrior caste gets dumped into the garrison and paramilitary police subcastes.

Which is consistent with what you're saying, but I just wanted to mention the ambiguity of the source material and quibble slightly about caste distinctions. ;)

Not just Lincoln Osis, but Hannibal Banacek too was an ilKhan Elemental. 

Oh yeah! Good point.

I didnt consider that it was training and not breeding. Good call. :)

I've always wondered about that... How much of a phenotype is genetics, how much is training, and how much are biochemical treatments to a developing fetus/infant/child to cause them to grow in a particular way? The sourcebooks hint pretty strongly that there's more to their biology than simple selective breeding.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 04 May 2013, 14:34:55
I just had a diabolical idea over in another thread.

If the Sea Foxes manage to safely deliver Julian Davion to New Avalon, part of their reward will be the claiming of three as-yet-unspecified star systems within the Federated Suns, or at least what's leff of it by the time the dust settles from the Draconian and Capellan invasions.

Well... what if one of those three systems, through sheer coincidence, happened to be the location of either Taussen or Obeedah?

Just imagine how well that would go down for all parties involved.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wolflord on 04 May 2013, 15:47:55
I just had a diabolical idea over in another thread.

If the Sea Foxes manage to safely deliver Julian Davion to New Avalon, part of their reward will be the claiming of three as-yet-unspecified star systems within the Federated Suns, or at least what's leff of it by the time the dust settles from the Draconian and Capellan invasions.

Well... what if one of those three systems, through sheer coincidence, happened to be the location of either Taussen or Obeedah?

Just imagine how well that would go down for all parties involved.


Pppaaarrrtttyyy! Bring your own nukes!  }:) would you suppose the Foxes had figured it out ahead of time and were tidying up or do you figure they interested parties just blunder into each other?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 04 May 2013, 15:56:17
I'm against taking planets, except as trade worlds. Planets have to be defended. Planets create channel conflict between you and your customers. If you're going to have planets, put them in the middle of nowhere and use a command circuit like a civilized fox.

After the Shark Fox model has proven so successful, why create a de facto OZ at this late date??

Update: Lol didn't think of those particular worlds. I still think it's a bad idea, but I can see the point.

BTW, love Wolflord's idea. Which actually means that Obeedah and Taussen would fit for the whole extra trade worlds thing. Trick would be A) taking ownership without unleashing whatever defenses/traps are there, and B) convincing everyone else that the inevitable conspiracy theories that the Sharks and Blakists were in cahoots is a pack of lies.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wolflord on 04 May 2013, 16:00:54
I'm against taking planets, except as trade worlds. Planets have to be defended. Planets create channel conflict between you and your customers. If you're going to have planets, put them in the middle of nowhere and use a command circuit like a civilized fox.

After the Shark Fox model has proven so successful, why create a de facto OZ at this late date??

is it required that the three davion worlds recieved as payment for delivering Julian are neighbours to each other? If not take one from each March as trade worlds.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 04 May 2013, 17:02:03
The clan protectorate is pretty brilliant. Marik protection but clan control. Our clan likes the idea alot.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 04 May 2013, 17:33:34
I was thinking more that the Sea Foxes, in such a setup, would not have any idea what was waiting for them in-system. That would make things much more interesting than having them know beforehand.

But still, there's no guarantee that Julian will even make it, so.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: HikageMaru on 04 May 2013, 20:34:42
Maybe we can find a way to induce HikageMaru to draw up some updated and customized Sea Fox banners and avatars.

(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/SeaFox-Nobility_zps3d2d6da3.png)
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[IMG]http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/SeaFox-Nobility_zps3d2d6da3.png[/IMG]
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Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Scrollreader on 04 May 2013, 20:35:49
Man.  I am a little ... underwhelmed with the RAT we have now.  I mean, we finally got rid of the Dasher II (So I don't need to waste money buying one), and yes, I understand that it's a rough guideline, and not prescriptive.  But ... the most common omnis we field according to the RAT are IS ones ...

Does anyone know if there are Clantech pod layouts for some of the newer omnis, like the Men Shen?  I know the original Kurita ones have the (R) configs.  But if your group doesn't allow custom pod layouts ...  ew.

    RAT aside, my Tiburon Gamma has a Thresher (With an awesome backstory, and an old and awesome pilot in it), and of course, a Piranha/Solitaire tag team.  Also, Tiburon Gamma has a great excuse to play with some of the new Wolf and Falcon Toys.  Issorla!

That being said, I do sort of wonder what the Foxes are fielding, as a whole, and what people's opinions are. 

EDIT: Holy cow, HikageMaru.  Those rock!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 04 May 2013, 21:58:28
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/SeaFox-Nobility_zps3d2d6da3.png)
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You're a prince among men! Many thanks, and congratulations on the new sibko you're training. ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 04 May 2013, 23:01:45
Man.  I am a little ... underwhelmed with the RAT we have now.  I mean, we finally got rid of the Dasher II (So I don't need to waste money buying one), and yes, I understand that it's a rough guideline, and not prescriptive.  But ... the most common omnis we field according to the RAT are IS ones ...

The Era report RAT's exist mostly to cross promote with other products and are pretty basic. We'll get a better RAT later this year when the Field Manual comes out.

Quote
That being said, I do sort of wonder what the Foxes are fielding, as a whole, and what people's opinions are. 

I miss Marauder IIC's we were stacked with in the wars of reaving supplemental. I really like the new Tiburon and we're making everything so we don't even need the excuse of Isorla to field Vulture IV's. Mad Cat II's, Mad Cat III's. Mad Cat IV's. I've never liked the Diamond Sharks RAT's that much. Mad Dogs are ok. Grendels are ok. I guess, I think Cauldron Borns are ugly mechs. So I'm much happier with the ascetic of the clan. Got a few old school incubus's I'm looking forward to painting Sea Fox Colors (as soon as I know what those colors are)

Don't know if those Marauder IIC's are coming back though. As of Objective clans we like Warhammer IIC's alot. I'm just happy we've got a solid list of pretty looking mechs in 3145. Tiburon is such a huge improvement.

Quote
EDIT: Holy cow, HikageMaru.  Those rock!

They do! Is there any chance we can get one with the quote, "Is there anything you require?" on it. Thats apparently the verbatim transmission you get whenever you find a Sea Fox .. caravan?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 05 May 2013, 00:25:24
I miss Marauder IIC's we were stacked with in the wars of reaving supplemental.

Don't know if those Marauder IIC's are coming back though. As of Objective clans we like Warhammer IIC's alot. I'm just happy we've got a solid list of pretty looking mechs in 3145.

Marauder IICs disappeared from the Diamond Shark RAT in FM:3085.  I am sure there are still a few around even though I am not sure I would call the WoRS RAT stacked with Marauder IICs.  Warhammer IICs have been a mainstay in Shark/Fox RATs since at least FM:U.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: HikageMaru on 05 May 2013, 00:28:55
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/SeaFox-SharkFox_zps22392c33.png)
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Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 05 May 2013, 00:30:31
Actually, I could imagine the Tiburon Khanate's logo from ER:3145 would be good for one of the "Shark/Fox" quotes.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 05 May 2013, 00:35:03
Marauder IICs disappeared from the Diamond Shark RAT in FM:3085.  I am sure there are still a few around even though I am not sure I would call the WoRS RAT stacked with Marauder IICs.  Warhammer IICs have been a mainstay in Shark/Fox RATs since at least FM:U.

I guess it was only two entries but it was still alot better than our current pheonix hawk obsession. Hopefully the field manual will give us some more warhawks and dire wolves. Still happier with our general direction.

Quote
Actually, I could imagine the Tiburon Khanate's logo from ER:3145 would be good for one of the "Shark/Fox" quotes

especially the one that says, "Sea Fox Diamond Shark Sea Fox" I seriously hope its the Chatterweb's 'loading' icon.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 05 May 2013, 01:40:55
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/SeaFox-SharkFox_zps22392c33.png)
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Whoa.... The Second Wave is astounding... These are amazing!'

Edit: I can't choose!! What do I do?!?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on 05 May 2013, 08:03:02
Awesome banners there! I'm using the Firefox one. D:
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: HikageMaru on 05 May 2013, 10:50:08
Actually, I could imagine the Tiburon Khanate's logo from ER:3145 would be good for one of the "Shark/Fox" quotes.

I would need an image file.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Klat on 05 May 2013, 11:59:44
You have my permission to right click save mine and use it. :D

That too leaves a background. Correction it only leaves a background if I save it from your profile page. If I save it from a thread you've posted it works.

It's on page one of this thread  O0    It has the nice transparent background that blends with the site. 

I used to use it.  I'll use it again if we think we can drown out a whole thread's page in a sea of Sea Fox clone avatars using the chatterweb like they own it or something...   :))

unfortunately...



Should anyone want to make use of it, here's an image of the Sea Fox insignia.

(http://i52.tinypic.com/5ph2sx.png)

I don't think it's meant to be. Assuming the one I used from this thread is usuable I'll just post it up so the next guy doesn't have as much trouble  O0

(http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss194/KlatBlutig/CSF_zps7722bcb3.png)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Wolflord on 05 May 2013, 12:24:12
Maybe those are the ones that found the WoB on the Davion hidden world?  ::)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Klat on 05 May 2013, 12:26:23
Maybe those are the ones that found the WoB on the Davion hidden world?  ::)

I always wondered if there was a connection!  :P
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: HikageMaru on 05 May 2013, 12:46:23
Updated:

(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/SeaFox-Forever_zps815c1314.png)
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Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 05 May 2013, 13:03:18


unfortunately...

I don't think it's meant to be. Assuming the one I used from this thread is usuable I'll just post it up so the next guy doesn't have as much trouble  O0

(http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss194/KlatBlutig/CSF_zps7722bcb3.png)


Awwwwww, man.  That old one was great.  I just looked in my own files, and no dice.  I have no saved copy of that one to re-up.  It was a nice 1000px + sized image too, excellent resolution.  Maybe someone out there has it and will be kind enough to the Sea Foxes.

All that aside, thought I would try on one of these new Sea Fox banners.

Very nice  ^-^
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 05 May 2013, 13:06:50
I would need an image file.

I cropped one from the pdf. Which is hopefully ok? Don't have any webspace I can use right now. If you want to PM me I can e-mail it or something. :D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 05 May 2013, 13:28:35
I like to change things up, so there are other banners I'll have to try later.  You do great ecumenical works for the community, Hikage Maru.  Salute!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: HikageMaru on 05 May 2013, 14:48:22
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/SeaFox-SharkFox2_zps2d9d999c.png)
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Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 05 May 2013, 15:09:04
Gah the negative space on that logo looks like a dolphin flipping out of the water!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 05 May 2013, 15:51:06
Gah the negative space on that logo looks like a dolphin flipping out of the water!

That's a reference to our secret masters, Clan Iron Dolphin. Shhhhhh.....


HikageMaru, if I could impose upon perfection, any chance you could give us a "Bargained Well and Done" that has the art style and visual contrast of the "What do you require?" banner? My associates would be very appreciative. ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 06 May 2013, 21:17:24
If anybody wants a tiburon khanate emblem I can e-mail it. Built and colored one. :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ShockaTime on 06 May 2013, 22:33:02
If anybody wants a tiburon khanate emblem I can e-mail it. Built and colored one. :)

PM sent. That looks awesome!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: HikageMaru on 07 May 2013, 15:13:20
That's a reference to our secret masters, Clan Iron Dolphin. Shhhhhh.....


HikageMaru, if I could impose upon perfection, any chance you could give us a "Bargained Well and Done" that has the art style and visual contrast of the "What do you require?" banner? My associates would be very appreciative. ;)

Sure but I'll put it in my Faction Banners thread---don't want to be accused of threadjacking.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 07 May 2013, 15:31:22
Sure but I'll put it in my Faction Banners thread---don't want to be accused of threadjacking.

On behalf of my fellow Sharks and Foxes, we welcome you to the thread and greatly appreciate everything you've done. If you get accusations of thread jacking here, rest assured that it's from those backstabbing Cloud Cobras, not us.  ;)  >:D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: HikageMaru on 07 May 2013, 15:56:48
On behalf of my fellow Sharks and Foxes, we welcome you to the thread and greatly appreciate everything you've done. If you get accusations of thread jacking here, rest assured that it's from those backstabbing Cloud Cobras, not us.  ;)  >:D

Thank you for the warm welcome---I'll never complain that too many Sea Foxes are asking for banners.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Klat on 13 May 2013, 16:21:02

Awwwwww, man.  That old one was great.  I just looked in my own files, and no dice.  I have no saved copy of that one to re-up.  It was a nice 1000px + sized image too, excellent resolution.  Maybe someone out there has it and will be kind enough to the Sea Foxes.

All that aside, thought I would try on one of these new Sea Fox banners.

Very nice  ^-^

If anyone has the above mentioned file I'd like to get a hold of it. Please PM me and I'll get you my email address.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 15 May 2013, 21:11:31
Just finished Hunters of the Deep. I've never actually finished one of Randall's books. I tried before with the one where Jake Kabrinski gets in an arm wrestling match (unaugmented) with an Atlas and wins in the prologue? (I hear he goes on to go into a similar arm wrestling match with a bear and a horse. Unaugmented. Though I've heard its super easy to go over the top with something with hooves?)

Anyways. Petr isn't what I expected. But maybe I shouldn't be so surprised? He is a clan mechwarrior. So the fact that he rages out at the slightest jest should not surprise me. But on the other hand, I feel like in a Clan of Warrior Merchants that being able to disseminate information easily should be something you learn early on? Also he gets half of his face burned off and does not think, "This may hurt me in negotiations."

I am wondering how a Ritual of Combat ends if it does not end in a limb being blown off? Though, I guess if you tear through either side torso you have still got a limb. So the worst case scenario would be a headshot or coring the battlemech. (If a battlemech gets cored you have to roll a 10+ on 2d6 for the component to be salvagable? I feel like thats long odds for the person in the cockpit.)

I'm wondering how long it will take for the clan to explode into its component parts. But we are still not even sure what we're doing with the money that we are amassing. So maybe thats ok.

I like how we can cheat with our totems. We are still as punny as the other clans. (Less so as a Sea Fox, but we are terrible when we are diamond sharks! How many shark metaphors can we make? luckily we are back to clan yappy dog cat thing.)  So we can call on a Sea Fox to adapt to a situation and be thinky and clever. But can invoke Diamond Sharks when someone blows up our civilians and we decide to eat their armies (looking at you Draconis Combine) or attacks one of our fleets (and you wolves) and just flip out and kill everything in a fit of terrifying violence.

I also like the end where he invokes clan sea fox's honor and pride. I feel like we are a clan that enjoys inflicting pyrrhic victories on our enemies. If we cannot win I do not feel like they should win either.

Anybody else read this book and have thoughts about it?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 15 May 2013, 22:16:49
I tried before with the one where Jake Kabrinski gets in an arm wrestling match (unaugmented) with an Atlas and wins in the prologue?

That's a Bryan Nystul novel, not Randall.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 15 May 2013, 22:24:06
That's a Bryan Nystul novel, not Randall.

Thank kerensky.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Neufeld on 16 May 2013, 13:45:20
I've never actually finished one of Randall's books.

That's OK, Randall himself have trouble finishing them. Just look at IO.  :D

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: SteveRestless on 16 May 2013, 14:05:13
I guess it was only two entries but it was still alot better than our current pheonix hawk obsession. Hopefully the field manual will give us some more warhawks and dire wolves. Still happier with our general direction.

I do not believe that either one is currently in production in the inner sphere, and any such machines are more likely to be legacy machines. Much to my chagrin, none of the wolf factions are building dire wolves in 3085, and its doubtful that the Hauptmann, which makes a nice poor-man's Dire Wolf is rolling off the lines either.

I can't say I'd mind seeing it back in production, though.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 16 May 2013, 14:15:26
I can't say I'd mind seeing it back in production, though.

Is it being built in the inner sphere? I'll have to go through the objectives book again.

Not sure if anyone is making shadow cats either. I think the Draconis Combine is? Its not made in the homeworlds anymore.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 16 May 2013, 14:20:56
Is it being built in the inner sphere? I'll have to go through the objectives book again.

Not sure if anyone is making shadow cats either. I think the Draconis Combine is? Its not made in the homeworlds anymore.

ER3145 mentioned how the Cats' production sites were forcibly disassembled prior to the rebellion.  It doesn't mention however what lines may have been reassembled (if any), possibly on other Combine worlds.   But the Shadow Cat is on the Combine RAT.  Then again, the Sphinx isn't but it IS on the Confederation's (how on earth does THAT makes sense).   Make as much or as little of it as you like.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: SteveRestless on 16 May 2013, 14:23:39
Is it being built in the inner sphere? I'll have to go through the objectives book again.

Not sure if anyone is making shadow cats either. I think the Draconis Combine is? Its not made in the homeworlds anymore.

as of Objectives Clans, no the dire wolf does not appear to be in production by anyone. its also not on the Wolf RAT in 3145. (doesn't mean we don't have any, but its a good sign we don't have tons.)

Doctrine-wise it doesn't fit the wolves very well anyway. Too slow.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 16 May 2013, 14:35:34
Well. They still make them somewhere in the homeworlds because it isn't on the extinct list in supplement WoR. Clan Jade falcon was also building the adorable Uller's and Shadow Cat II's. Which aren't as pretty as the original, but are still pretty. I like my good looking mechs. I'm actually really impressed with the Warhammer IIC's new art. So I'm pretty happy with what the Sea Foxes are fielding. Tiburon's gorgeous too. Mad Cats have always looked good. Though Vultures are kind of weird looking the more you see their little cockpit. Nova's may be dead too.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Aleksandr on 16 May 2013, 15:45:47
The Shadow Cat *was* being built by the Nova Cats in 3080, but we have no idea how long that factory and production line kept going. We'll probably have to wait for the Clan TRO, or the Wars of the Republic Era, to see if anything happened to it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 16 May 2013, 20:01:46
Perhaps after the Combine went to the trouble dismantling the Nova Cat's military industry, the Sea Foxes showed up and issued a Trial of Possession for the equipment and schematics.  It makes sense for a couple of reasons:

The Foxes would gain equipment and access to some nice designs which do appear to be popular throughout the Inner Sphere according to ER:3145.  Another advantage would be to keep the Combine from making the former Nova Cat equipment and not lose market share for Clan equipment.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 17 May 2013, 07:34:51
The Shadow Cat *was* being built by the Nova Cats in 3080, but we have no idea how long that factory and production line kept going. We'll probably have to wait for the Clan TRO, or the Wars of the Republic Era, to see if anything happened to it.
Considering the DA era Shadow Cat's appearance, and how it matched the aethetic of other DA era Nova Cat gear (And shared parts with the Wendigo and Avalanche), I'm pretty confidant they were building them up to their genocide.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 18 May 2013, 00:10:00
Collecting miniatures to paint currently, which will be the first time I paint canon colors on mechs.

Going to make two forces I think. One will be Clan Sea Fox colors as soon as the new Era Report comes out and I can figure out what color to paint them.

The other will be Wars of Reaving. I really like the Second Line mechs Clan Diamond Shark fields. I think they all have beautiful lines. Looking forward to painting them.

But I also like how the Steel Viper Gamma Galaxy eats it on Babylon during the reaving. I prefer to stay mostly canon.

I assume that the majority of fighting on Babylon was done by Alpha Galaxy? It would make the most sense. I like dark blue, but I like some shades of Aqua Marine. So Alpha Galaxy or Sigma Galaxy are good for me to paint. (Don't want to go green) But I like Sigma's secondline machines and emblem more. But Deathstrike galaxy is probably the one that murdered Gamma so I may go dark blue and grey.

What are your thoughts? Fellow Sea Fox People.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 18 May 2013, 16:35:07
I think using Alpha Galaxy for the fighting on Babylon is probably a safe assumption.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 19 May 2013, 01:26:39
I think using Alpha Galaxy for the fighting on Babylon is probably a safe assumption.

Field manual updates has them posted there. But thats 3067. By 3069 it says that the homeworlds are mostly defended by second line and solahma warriors.

Though later on when the society strikes a deathstrike cluster is present on world and is subsequently overwhelmed by coyote forces.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 20 May 2013, 14:34:29
You know what our Evil plan should be? Taking over the homeworlds. Thats what we should use our money for. When they attack the Inner Sphere. We should go take their planets. They stabbed Labov in the neck and I'm still not good with that.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 20 May 2013, 17:11:34
You know what our Evil plan should be? Taking over the homeworlds. Thats what we should use our money for. When they attack the Inner Sphere. We should go take their planets. They stabbed Labov in the neck and I'm still not good with that.

Ummm.... a cluster of crappy worlds in the middle of nowhere? Seriously? I just don't see the upside in that. Even as a PR stunt it's not very compelling.

"They" who stabbed Angus Labov are all dead. Of old age if nothing else. The last thing that went through Brett Andrews's mind was his own nose, courtesy of the Star Adders. His Steel Vipers were annihilated. You've got some dezgra Coyotes who were massacred, and a rump Hell's Horses. The Cobras and Star Adders didn't do more than token damage to the clan, which I see as strictly business. You've got a collection of Clans left in the homeworlds that were more allies than enemies for most of their histories, even during the Wars of Reaving.

Even if there was anyone or any Clan left that the Diamond Sharks had a grievance against, pursuing century-old grudges is an expensive distraction.

In the BT universe, staying safe and prosperous is more than enough of an Evil Plan for me. ComStar had the winning formula until they started coming up with zany schemes like that. I'm willing to fight to the very last Jade Falcon to re-take the Homeworlds, and no more. (And I'm not 100% convinced that the Sea Foxes have abandoned contact with the Homeworlds in any event.)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 20 May 2013, 17:32:21
It had enough resources to begin a rather dangerous Dire Wolf export business to the Inner Sphere. (Talking about Operation Revival. Not an actual trade.)

but I agree. Andrews did get his. To bad we didn't get in on that action.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: WONC on 20 May 2013, 18:56:37
Perhaps after the Combine went to the trouble dismantling the Nova Cat's military industry, the Sea Foxes showed up and issued a Trial of Possession for the equipment and schematics.  It makes sense for a couple of reasons:

The Foxes would gain equipment and access to some nice designs which do appear to be popular throughout the Inner Sphere according to ER:3145.  Another advantage would be to keep the Combine from making the former Nova Cat equipment and not lose market share for Clan equipment.

Better you guys get it than the Snakes. A design like the Shadow Cat deserves to live on, and not in the hands of a Successor Lord.

You know what our Evil plan should be? Taking over the homeworlds. Thats what we should use our money for. When they attack the Inner Sphere. We should go take their planets. They stabbed Labov in the neck and I'm still not good with that.

On a secondary tangent, and by way of the Vipers being my second Clan, Brett Andrews was a psychotic trashborn who should've been culled in the creche. Labov was a decent guy, for a merchant.  :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 20 May 2013, 23:35:09
It had enough resources to begin a rather dangerous Dire Wolf export business to the Inner Sphere. (Talking about Operation Revival. Not an actual trade.)

but I agree. Andrews did get his. To bad we didn't get in on that action.

With four clans still alive and well, it's a very costly action to take for something they could possibly do just as well elsewhere. 

A lot of Clans got b-b-b-burned by the Vipers big time.  No one expected that they would shunt all their extra resources home to concentrate there.  As pointed out by the WoR, the Falcons simply expedited the process that unfolded by ejecting the Vipers from the IS and provided a nominal focus for their aggression. 

The Ravens wanted to destroy the Zalman, so did the Sharks, both failed, as did the Falcons.  That would have been a trophy kill for any Clan.

All we can all do is rejoice that the rest of the Home Clans wised up enough to destroy the Vipers.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 04 June 2013, 01:26:09
Ever wonder if we have so many entries in Mercenaries Technical Readout because... we are kind of mercenaries right now?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 05 June 2013, 21:41:58
Ever wonder if we have so many entries in Mercenaries Technical Readout because... we are kind of mercenaries right now?

Nope, never wondered about that at all.  >:D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 06 June 2013, 23:45:11
Judging by the Nagasawa fluff and the Julian Davion escort I get the feeling we aren't great friends with the Confederation...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: kuttsinister7 on 07 June 2013, 15:25:08
The confederation hates everyone...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 08 June 2013, 15:24:46
We'll probably find a way to endear ourselves to the Cappies, then when everything looks like PeaceTech for the Sea Foxes, that's when the trouble will start.   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: SteveRestless on 09 June 2013, 10:36:23
Judging by the Nagasawa fluff and the Julian Davion escort I get the feeling we aren't great friends with the Confederation...

But your friendship with the Federated Suns in its dark hour of need will not be forgotten by this son of the suns!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 09 June 2013, 11:17:13
But your friendship with the Federated Suns in its dark hour of need will not be forgotten by this son of the suns!

Friendship? The Foxes aren't doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, y'know.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: SteveRestless on 09 June 2013, 11:20:52
No, they're doing it for three planets. Which is a small price to pay for the liberation of the worlds stolen from us. At the least, I know the Foxes will not abuse the citizenry of the worlds they have been paid.

But, I still consider them a friend in a dark hour.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 09 June 2013, 20:13:54
A strategically placed kind gesture in exchange for three very huge warehouse planets.  They could be scattered along Periphery March.  Good, so much the better actually for spreading out, and close to the Periphery and pirates to keep the combat skills sharp.

And trade relations will deepen, maybe the Sea Foxes get involved with finding Tausen...  that would be so huge - as long as uncovering it does not signal everyone near by's doom...   

And were the Foxes go, other Clans may come.  The Wolves are positioned to be of possible benefit to the Suns now too, especially in the event that Fortress Republic coming down is a deadly thing, their new spot could be great to help counter punch anything that arises from that area that might threaten the Suns. 

The players are migrating to new positions.  New stories will be told.  Times are good.   

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: SteveRestless on 09 June 2013, 21:09:53
Right. just because something's business doesn't mean that it can't be cordial, after all. as a business owner myself, the best client is a happy client whom I enjoy working with, who will call me again when they need my services.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 18 June 2013, 13:14:12
Hmm. in Atow the Warrior Merchant field says that Warrior Merchants are inactive warriors who want to advance the clan through less brutal means.

But 'Hunters of the Deep', ER 3145 and TRO: Mercenaries makes it pretty obvious that they are merchants and warriors concurrently. No rules in the ER:3145 sections talk about this though.

Any thoughts? Maybe I should post this in the roleplaying section or the ask the developers section.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 18 June 2013, 13:26:21
IMO a Warrior-Merchant is exactly what AToW says with Angus Labov before he rejoined the warrior caste, or Barbara Sennet after she stepped down as Khan being prime examples.  This does not mean that active warriors cannot also be mercantile and work on deals such as Faulk with the Crimson Hawk development.

In universe, I imagine what the Sharks/Foxes consider a Warrior-Merchant is different from what everyone outside the clan would consider one.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 21 July 2013, 02:07:21
So, when do the Foxes add a new Sharknado Khanate? ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 21 July 2013, 11:13:36
IMO a Warrior-Merchant is exactly what AToW says with Angus Labov before he rejoined the warrior caste, or Barbara Sennet after she stepped down as Khan being prime examples.  This does not mean that active warriors cannot also be mercantile and work on deals such as Faulk with the Crimson Hawk development.

In universe, I imagine what the Sharks/Foxes consider a Warrior-Merchant is different from what everyone outside the clan would consider one.

I'm pretty sure that this changes as Clan Sea Fox changes. I think Clan Diamond Shark warrior merchants were guys who had retired to the merchant caste.

But Clan Sea Fox doesn't fight as much as other Clans. So I'm pretty sure their Warrior Merchants are just bored warriors. If you look at the notable personalities entries in FM3145, its a bunch of Clan Trueborn Warriors who have higher merchant ratings than combat ratings.

I'm still looking forward to Antoinette and her insane strategy skill on that ship named after a Ghost Ship.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 21 July 2013, 12:18:29
So, when do the Foxes add a new Sharknado Khanate? ;D



I was saving that particular idea for a rainy day, but a sunny one with fair temperatures will do.   ;D

Saw it when it debuted at my local watering hole, which was the perfect place to see it.  Everyone present that evening was loud and sometimes cheering, sometimes heckling, sometimes both in the same breath.  It was great fun, and I took a taxi home  O0  because I don't want to end up as the guy who has to ride a scooter/moped everywhere, I like my drivers license and my truck.  9 bucks for fare, or 10k for the right to surrender my license and sit at meetings that I don't belong at for years on threat of incarceration.  No contest.  It's only a 30 minute walk, even at full-on drunk mode with no cash. 

OK, that's neither here nor there...  An elite Galaxy/Khanate called the Sharknados could only be a boon to our faction.  I'm in favor of it.   O0
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 21 July 2013, 13:51:08
Maybe an elite Blackwater Navy unit.  A WarShip with several Aesirs and a couple hundred ASF or something.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 21 July 2013, 17:18:09
I was thinking that too.  Lots of assault droppers and lots more ASF, maybe a new totem 'mech or two for ground forces, and plenty of Shark/Fox Elementals.  All of them deployed in dramatic air-drops or orbital insertion.   O0
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 21 July 2013, 19:00:47
we need one of those new pretty Omni fighters.. and to stop using the aerospace fighter phenotype. so strange.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 21 July 2013, 22:13:06
we need one of those new pretty Omni fighters.. and to stop using the aerospace fighter phenotype. so strange.

Why is the aerospace phenotype strange?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 21 July 2013, 22:33:47
Why is the aerospace phenotype strange?
Because they steal cows from remote OA farms?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 21 July 2013, 22:35:59
Because they steal cows from remote OA farms?

Phft, that's only a rumour... or a handfull of deviants... or... shut up :P     
;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 21 July 2013, 22:38:15
It's not theft, it's a Trial of Possession.  For delicious cow meats.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ClarkeMarek on 21 July 2013, 22:49:25
Why is the aerospace phenotype strange?

Because they're a failure when it comes to their primary mission of "spare kickstand." :P
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 21 July 2013, 23:20:40
What I find interesting is that people usually declare the aerospace phenotype a failure based most often off the performance of the Ghost Bears against Rasalhague.  This is funny because the Ghost Bears specifically do not use the aerospace phenotype.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 21 July 2013, 23:45:08
In general, the clan pilots only outperformed the spheroid ones because of their tech advantage.  That's not confined to the Ghost Bears.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 21 July 2013, 23:45:28
Why is the aerospace phenotype strange?

I think that in an effort to make the clans appear alien at first glance to throw off readers they threw in aerospace pilots to be bizarre. But I dont personally find them interesting. I feel like the elementals add to the setting. I like the mystic caste too.

But aerospace fighters break the rule of cool. Aerospace fighters are cool. Attractive people in aerospace fighters are cool. Sterling Mckenna is cool. Notice how she doesnt resemble a xcom sectoid?

Though, with elstars now maybe ill have to get used to the bizarre.

Clan diamond shark likes to be on the cutting edge of trueborn technology. But I always hope they will just keep making more odd ethereal space beauties.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 25 July 2013, 20:10:00
Can't say I disagree with that sentiment.  I figured the McKennas tended to look more "normal" due to being born to a general bloodline, and not one that itself had been modified to the point of Mechwarriors, Elementals and ASF pilot lines. 

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 26 July 2013, 12:40:56
I think some of the "failures" of the aerospace phenotype has more to do with aerospace pilots having a harder time surviving the destruction of their fighter than MechWarriors and Elementals. I bet pilots have a harder time surviving to win a bloodname, thus making it harder to advance useful, notable skill advancements through to the next generations.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 26 July 2013, 12:48:48
I think some of the "failures" of the aerospace phenotype has more to do with aerospace pilots having a harder time surviving the destruction of their fighter than MechWarriors and Elementals. I bet pilots have a harder time surviving to win a bloodname, thus making it harder to advance useful, notable skill advancements through to the next generations.

Could be.

I always figured it had a lot to do with the technological edge being less important for aerospace combat.  Mechs don't care about being flanked or tailed, they can still shoot back.  A Clan ASF pilot otoh, can't bring his better tech to bear when his target is behind him or perpendicular.

Furthermore to dovetail with your thought,  the superior Clan ASFs are equally subject to death-by-popgun-induced-PSR as IS ASFs in atmospheric combat/ground-to-air fire.

So trueborn MechWarriors and Elementals have the paired advantages of superior tech and skills, whereas the Aerospace pilots don't get as full benefit of the tech advantage.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 26 July 2013, 12:53:26
Can't say I disagree with that sentiment.  I figured the McKennas tended to look more "normal" due to being born to a general bloodline, and not one that itself had been modified to the point of Mechwarriors, Elementals and ASF pilot lines.

As a GM especially, I know that I'm not going to get a lot of Time of War players who jump at the chance to play a clan aerospace fighter. Halflings and gnomes are cooler by comparison (Though not in the setting) But a lot of my players are interested in elementals.

If Sterling McKenna was an ASF phenotype, I doubt Harrison or Caleb would be taken in by her.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 26 July 2013, 16:07:12
I think some of the "failures" of the aerospace phenotype has more to do with aerospace pilots having a harder time surviving the destruction of their fighter than MechWarriors and Elementals. I bet pilots have a harder time surviving to win a bloodname, thus making it harder to advance useful, notable skill advancements through to the next generations.

I don't know, seems like it'd be pretty unlikely for an elemental to survive the destruction of his suit.  Even elemental-to-elemental augmented combat sees like it'd be pretty lethal, or at least leave most veteran elementals missing limbs.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Rainbow 6 on 26 July 2013, 16:20:46
I don't know, seems like it'd be pretty unlikely for an elemental to survive the destruction of his suit.  Even elemental-to-elemental augmented combat sees like it'd be pretty lethal, or at least leave most veteran elementals missing limbs.

Don't forget the clans can regrow limbs.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 26 July 2013, 16:35:30
If they're patient enough to wait.  How many ristar elementals are going to want to be off the line for months regrowing a leg, relative to the ones that go the Malavai Fletcher route?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Diamondshark on 28 July 2013, 20:09:25
Don't forget the clans can regrow limbs.

Also, as per the Blood of Kerensky, Elemental Battle Armor (and presumably the others)  have systems specifically designed to preserve a severed limb and the point it was severed from, in order to make re-attachment as easy as possible.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 01 August 2013, 23:29:42
Starting to worry for wellspring! Havent seen him in a long time.  :(
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 06 August 2013, 01:26:12
Same here.  Last I saw him was a month or so back.  Hope he's OK.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 06 August 2013, 01:39:15
I don't know, seems like it'd be pretty unlikely for an elemental to survive the destruction of his suit.  Even elemental-to-elemental augmented combat sees like it'd be pretty lethal, or at least leave most veteran elementals missing limbs.

*pirate sounding* HArrrrjel, it fills yur belly!...seriously it does tho =)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 06 August 2013, 02:16:35
Didn't the Sharks have a WarShip called Megalodon?  Or was that just a hoax?   :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 06 August 2013, 10:36:02
Maybe it went down like the Titani...  oh, wait, that's a useless metaphor in this universe  ;) 



Now I'm thinking El Chupacabra light Omnifighters to be marketed in the Imperio! (secretly, of course, shhhhh...)  Or Jackalope hovertanks for the Horses...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 August 2013, 14:39:27
We apparently had little to do with the vast majority of things in the new tro. Though we are trading a few of the vehicles around.

Also, I accidentally posted the following in the Protectorate Thread, where I meant it more of a discussion for this one.

Quote
Hmm. The Draconis Combine killed our supplier of Shadowhawk and Griffin battlemechs.

I know that the Random Assignment Tables aren't meant to be an end all be all of inventory that the clans have available. Or even the most likely. They're just a game aid.

But I'm always confused on how mechs we produce are less likely to be found fielded by us than other factions.

Maybe its not as strange as I think. But we don't field any Vulture IV's!
Clan Snow Raven and Clan Ghost Bear are far more likely to field Savage Wolfs than us. (Cha-Ching!)

The Mad Cat Mk II is one of the ghost bears primary battlemechs!

(Also of note, We don't sell anything to Clan Jade Falcon! The only thing that might be traced back to us is are Griffin IIC's. So there is a chance its a Griffin IIC we bought from the nova cats, refitted, then sold to them... and a better chance that it isn't! Odds of them getting from Clan Cobras seem pretty slim. Could just be leftovers though.)Modify message
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Rainbow 6 on 13 August 2013, 16:52:34
Maybe the Combine sold you the production lines for the Shadow Hawk & Griffin IIC's?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 13 August 2013, 16:54:35
Maybe the Combine sold you the production lines for the Shadow Hawk & Griffin IIC's?

Naah, those are too valuable for domestic use.

However there's certainly no reason they couldn't export some units to the Foxes.. what better way to pay for all the Mad Cat and Vulture Mk IVs imports?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 August 2013, 17:02:02
Someone said in the Nova Cat thread that the DCMS sold a lot of Nova Cat material to the Sea Foxes. But I'm not sure where they got it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 13 August 2013, 17:03:38
Some of the captured Nova Cat facilities that the Combine couldn't easily put back into production were sold (or claimed by Trial of Possession) to the Foxes.   I'm not sure the vibe was there to assume ALL of it was.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Rainbow 6 on 13 August 2013, 17:04:21
I think there was something in TRO3145 Kurita about the Combine selling some of the Cats production sites to the Foxes.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 August 2013, 17:12:14
I think there was something in TRO3145 Kurita about the Combine selling some of the Cats production sites to the Foxes.

Thank you. I'll look it up!  :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 August 2013, 17:13:20
I also wonder what we're going to do with Comstar Assets in the league. I wonder if this includes property? That's maybe one of the most interesting developments.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 August 2013, 17:28:07
Hmm. Nykvarn facilities? I guess it makes sense we'd have enclaves in the Draconis Combine. But kind of terrifying when you consider how things went for the Spirit Cats. Thought I may just be reading that wrong.

The Cizin is awesome. Didn't realize there was a Sea Fox vehicle (well. Ex Nova Cat Vehicle) in the TRO.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 13 August 2013, 18:20:05
The Clan Protectorate is a triumph for the Foxes.  It's something that came up during the grand venture of the IS invasion, and netted us a state on the fringes of the old Terran Hegemony worlds.  It makes us look like candidates for ilClan, even.  We have stuff going on in spades. 

It's just a great time to be a Sea Fox. 

But is that just the calm before the storm? 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 13 August 2013, 18:21:52
But is that just the calm before the storm?

Yes.  Beware the trap of Terra.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 August 2013, 19:01:41
The Clan Protectorate is a triumph for the Foxes.  It's something that came up during the grand venture of the IS invasion, and netted us a state on the fringes of the old Terran Hegemony worlds.  It makes us look like candidates for ilClan, even.  We have stuff going on in spades. 

It's just a great time to be a Sea Fox. 

But is that just the calm before the storm?

Even in Field Manual 3085 our touman was getting insanely large because we just aren't fighting any Wars. Gamma Aimag is pretty battle hardened because they were near the Republic when things got crazy there. As well as being near the Clan Occupation Zone.

The rest of our forces aren't quite as battle hardened. But they aren't slackers either and whenever one Aimag gets near another one we do ritual combats to keep things good.

But with Tiburon Khanate about to hit the Capellans and the Ilclan about to go down I think we'll see a lot more combat soon.

Should we be afraid of a crotch kick because things are going well? ...

The reavings were a bit of a surprise. But it knocked the amount of clan factions down to a reasonable level.

What happened to the Nova Cats sucked. But there was massive foreshadowing before it happened. There were the Spirit Cats and there were the visions.

Whats happening to the Federated Suns now is kind of rough. But it was foreshadowed too and honestly its made that faction interesting again.

Whats happening to the Lyrans is super rough. But its also giving them a chance to be interesting and I think they're going to pull through.

The Free Worlds League is all back together again after being the most interesting they've ever been (and I'm a Free Worlds League Fan)

So if Clan Sea Fox suffers from a massive crotch kick then I hope we at least hit everybody like we did in the Reavings, fighting hard enough where they just let us leave instead of getting smashed against us.

But the likelihood of our faction dieing isn't very likely and if it does, you come hang out with me. I'll run some Sea Fox campaigns about survivors. Won't even be an AU. We'll keep it canon and fun.

At this point though, we might be the ones delivering.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 13 August 2013, 19:06:11
I also wonder what we're going to do with Comstar Assets in the league. I wonder if this includes property? That's maybe one of the most interesting developments.

Restaurant Franchises.  "Come for the HPG Access.  Stay for the Irish Bacon."
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 August 2013, 19:27:28
I'll also say, and I stick to this, that the Spirit Cats are far more interesting that the Nova Cats.

Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon are really how the clans were introduced to the Inner Sphere. The Jade Falcons are also a reminder and representation of the Crusader legacy of the clans. They are like Clans Vanilla and Chocolate.

Clan Ghost Bear has basically wrapped themselves up in Rasalhague. This reminds me of a writing trick. If you have a character archetype but the character is incomplete and boring, you can take another type of character, put it into one person and that person becomes interesting and well rounded. Well Rasalhague and the Ghost Bears have done this. They've taken the elements from both factions and put them together to make one interesting faction.

This has happened somewhere else too. Clan Snow Raven is interesting. They are Machiavellian and interested in Aerospace assets. Well the Outworlds League, a Periphery Faction whose interesting perk was that they also liked Aerospace but didn't have anything beyond that to make them interested fell in with the Ravens. These two factions together are interesting.

Clan Diamond Shark/Clan Sea Fox: You know Ferengi are pretty disgusting looking so I hate it when people compare our clan to them. Considering we're awesome clan warriors. But Sci Fi Settings like a couple of things and one of the things they like is traveling merchants / gypsies. So Clan Sea Fox has made this more interesting, far more interesting, by being a Warrior Merchant gypsy society.

Which is as interesting as a Comstar Tech Cult.

Anyways, then there were the Nova Cats. The Nova Cats had a good start. They were Warrior Mystics. This is always cool. Give them a penchant for Marksmanship and a little bit of a trade background and they're a cool culture.

But things kind of get messy when they link up with the Draconis Combine. Its not a marriage of two cultures. The Draconis Combine is a faction that likes to be exactly the way it is. Its interesting the way it is and it doesn't really need changed. They're already oppressing the Azami so it isn't like that's something that adds character for the Combine.

The Mystic Caste might have helped maybe. For the most part the Draconis Combine was kind of crushing their rule of cool.

But the Spirit Cats, they're referred to as Cultists and Ascetics and they're jumping into the Free Worlds League whose job is to be as varied and interesting as possible really adds to the Free Worlds League. A lot of people aren't interested in the league and unless you are willing to dig it up yourself its not obvious that the Regulans, Orient Protectorate, Anduriens etc are all unique factions inside of a bigger faction. For the longest time when I first got into Battletech I explained the Free Worlds league as the faction that fought civil wars all the time.

The Clan Protectorate on the other hand is pretty obviously its own entity and part of the Free Worlds League so its existence punctuates and accentuates the way the Free Worlds League Works.

Just like their crazy tattoos, talking to spirits and seeing visions really pushes forward what the Nova Cats were.

Anyways, maybe this post is misplaced. But I wrote all of it to say, basically, I don't think any factions are going to be murdered anytime soon. I could be wrong. But the Battletech universe is kind of getting it down to a manageable and interesting amount.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 August 2013, 19:27:59
Restaurant Franchises.  "Come for the HPG Access.  Stay for the Irish Bacon."

I thought we were doing the Pizza thing?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 13 August 2013, 19:50:04
I thought we were doing the Pizza thing?

Who says we aren't?  Irish Bacon is a perfectly acceptable pizza topping, especially when you're using beer mustard as the sauce, and a mix of Dubliner and Mozzarella as your cheeses.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 August 2013, 19:51:26
Well then, I'll get the Scientist Caste on the Delivery Person genetype right away.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 13 August 2013, 19:53:54
Quality Control:  Please ensure you do not exceed the recommended dosage of 'creepiness' genes.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 13 August 2013, 19:54:38
Well then, I'll get the Scientist Caste on the Delivery Person genetype right away.

We may need to acquire some Hellion genes for the Delivery People.  But preferably not the crazy person ones.  We want them fast, not nuts.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 13 August 2013, 20:05:45
Well then, I'll get the Scientist Caste on the Delivery Person genetype right away.

Is that what the cargo space on the Kirghiz C is for?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 13 August 2013, 20:07:06
Is that what the cargo space on the Kirghiz C is for?

Once we trial that foolish Papa John for his secret "Pizza Transit Warmth" technology, it will be!   ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 13 August 2013, 20:16:42
Mozzarella and Munster works good to.  However, I am totally venturing a guess that Munster cheese is named for Munster, the province of Ireland, and not some other Munster :)  (I've always erred on that side that indeed it is). 

Personally, Peperoni and Bacon is a simple and hard combo to beat.   

And the secret of the Papa John's Heat Transit is that the bags are lined with the same stuff they make those foil-looking emergency blankets.  And them telling us it was alien technology...   Charlatans! 





So, we're all braced for anything, really - or, we should be - according to the measure that I take from responses.  About what I was thinking.  All I know is it's awesome not knowing BT's future :) 


Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 13 August 2013, 20:20:45
Mozzarella and Munster works good to.  However, I am totally venturing a guess that Munster cheese is named for Munster, the province of Ireland, and not some other Munster :)  (I've always erred on that side that indeed it is). 

Personally, Peperoni and Bacon is a simple and hard combo to beat.   

And the secret of the Papa John's Heat Transit is that the bags is they are lined from the same stuff they make those foil-looking emergency blankets.  And them telling us it was alien technology...   Charlatans! 





So, we're all braced for anything, really - or, we should be - according to the measure that I take from responses.  About what I was thinking.  All I know is it's awesome not knowing BT's future :)

Actually, Munster is a French* Cheese.  But no reason we can't use it.

Pepperoni, Bacon, and other various pig products make for good "standard" pizza toppings.  I do so enjoy nonstandard pizzas though (and luckily, a local pizza place supplies EXCELLENT ones.  We swap ideas from time to time).

And we're braced for ANYTHING.  Because the Shark Foxes are up to something, and whatever it is, whether it's the conquest of Terra or the Conquest of Pizza Franchises, it's gonna be awesome!

*Okay, so it's Alsacian.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 13 August 2013, 20:51:12
Actually, Munster is a French* Cheese.  But no reason we can't use it.

Pepperoni, Bacon, and other various pig products make for good "standard" pizza toppings.  I do so enjoy nonstandard pizzas though (and luckily, a local pizza place supplies EXCELLENT ones.  We swap ideas from time to time).

And we're braced for ANYTHING.  Because the Shark Foxes are up to something, and whatever it is, whether it's the conquest of Terra or the Conquest of Pizza Franchises, it's gonna be awesome!

*Okay, so it's Alsacian.

I had a suspicion it was a different kind of Munster  ^-^

What if in a case of art imitates life, the ilClan discovers the joys of Pizza and other IS decadence, grows fat and complacent and then is easily ousted by the very people busily profiting from their slow demise?  So the ilClan plot and the pizza franchise plot all fit like clockwork.  Insidiously simple. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 13 August 2013, 20:57:10
I think it would go more like feudal Japan.  There's a figurehead emperor ilClan who's "in charge", but everybody knows he isn't they aren't really running things, it's the Shogun Shark Foxes who's really in charge, but the illusion is maintained for form's sake.  Since it isn't the Shogun Foxes who's descended from deities conquered Holy Terra and all that.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 13 August 2013, 20:58:38
I had a suspicion it was a different kind of Munster  ^-^

What if in a case of art imitates life, the ilClan discovers the joys of Pizza and other IS decadence, grows fat and complacent and then is easily ousted by the very people busily profiting from their slow demise?  So the ilClan plot and the pizza franchise plot all fit like clockwork.  Insidiously simple.

http://www.cooksinfo.com/muenster-cheese  It seems as there is some debate to the origin of the cheese, as apparently a bunch of Irish Monks went to a monastery in the region the cheese "debuted".

And you've pretty much just explained Chandrasekhar Kurita's method of anti-Clan warfare right there.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 13 August 2013, 21:09:40
I think it would go more like feudal Japan.  There's a figurehead emperor ilClan who's "in charge", but everybody knows he isn't they aren't really running things, it's the Shogun Shark Foxes who's really in charge, but the illusion is maintained for form's sake.  Since it isn't the Shogun Foxes who's descended from deities conquered Holy Terra and all that.

Authorial epicness will be displayed at its finest if it evokes all that. 


http://www.cooksinfo.com/muenster-cheese  It seems as there is some debate to the origin of the cheese, as apparently a bunch of Irish Monks went to a monastery in the region the cheese "debuted".

And you've pretty much just explained Chandrasekhar Kurita's method of anti-Clan warfare right there.

Ahhh ha!  So we're getting somewhere with the origins of Munster.   I think I'll have to check out Irish bacon soon, now that I keep thinking about it.


So, Uncle Chandy's will be the name of the true enemy of the children of Kerensky.  We'll see if they can deal with Sharkfox Sushi Kitchen, or the Hell's Horses Barbeque Shack, but its not bad.  He could also start a franchise of themed pubs with that name.   ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 13 August 2013, 21:19:40
Is Irish Bacon like regular bacon, but with Guinness?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 13 August 2013, 21:40:01
Is Irish Bacon like regular bacon, but with Guinness?

No, although I'm tempted to add that to my brine just for the sake of science.

In other parts of the world, American Bacon, which comes from the pig's belly, is called streaky bacon.  Another European variant of it would be pancetta, which uses wine in the curing process.

However, in England, Ireland, and Canada, you also get a food called "bacon" by curing some of the back muscles of the pig (typically, I use pork loin when doing this).  To distinguish them from streaky bacon, these back bacons tend to be referred to by their country of origin while in the states.  The cure for Irish Bacon typically includes molasses, and may or may not actually involve smoking the meat (I don't mostly due to a combination of time and not having a good place to smoke it).

It is actually far more authentically Irish than corned beef is (which is actually Jewish American).  Historically, cows were for the wealthy in Europe, thus, Irish Bacon being far more common as a peasant food.  When the Irish came to the US, they were looking for something similar to the bacon they had back home, and turned to their new Jewish American neighbors, who it turns out didn't do pork.  Thus, why "Corned Beef and Cabbage" kinda gets lumped in as the stereotypical Irish Meal.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 August 2013, 21:53:13
And the shark foxes foodie nature becomes apparent.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 13 August 2013, 21:56:05
And the shark foxes foodie nature becomes apparent.

In real life, I am in fact a cook at a preschool.  I've occasionally done Irish Bacon, but I'm rarely far enough ahead in terms of the food I have on hand to do that (as it takes at least a week to brine).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 13 August 2013, 21:57:07
Hey, food's a great thing for merchants.  Everybody needs it, so your market is essentially "all of humanity", it never becomes obsolete, they need constant supplies, spheroid fatties get addicted and buy way more than they actually need....
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 13 August 2013, 22:28:21
I think you guys have latched onto the real reason to take Terra.
You need to claim the New York Tristate area to make proper pizza dough and bagels.  O0
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 13 August 2013, 22:32:17
And the shark foxes foodie nature becomes apparent.

I'd think if they didn't have good food, being confined and cramped on those Arks would make people revolt.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 13 August 2013, 22:35:21
In reality the Sea Foxes/Diamond Sharks need to take Terra to dump Clusters of Undine Battle Armor into the oceans, like their stand on Vinton during the Wars of Reaving... now those freeborn pilots I would trial for to be part of my Galaxy!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 13 August 2013, 22:45:26
I think you guys have latched onto the real reason to take Terra.
You need to claim the New York Tristate area to make proper pizza dough and bagels.  O0

The best pizza I've had isn't in New York.  On the other hand, I lived on the East Coast for twenty years and still somehow didn't make it to New York City, so I REALLY need to make the pilgrimage.  Let's conquer it.  For PIZZA!  AND BAGELS!  AND DELIS!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 13 August 2013, 23:54:12
And Jersey Diners.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: WONC on 14 August 2013, 01:05:27
And Jersey Diners.

For some awful reason my first thought was of someone making Snookie a bondsman. I need to read better sometimes.  :o
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 14 August 2013, 09:00:34
And Jersey Diners.

I miss being able to go to the Boardwalk in Point Pleasant and eat the deadly food there.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 14 August 2013, 15:23:53
Who says we aren't?  Irish Bacon is a perfectly acceptable pizza topping, especially when you're using beer mustard as the sauce, and a mix of Dubliner and Mozzarella as your cheeses.

Finletter's Pizza?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: WONC on 14 August 2013, 15:39:37
Who says we aren't?  Irish Bacon is a perfectly acceptable pizza topping, especially when you're using beer mustard as the sauce, and a mix of Dubliner and Mozzarella as your cheeses.

Dubliner with Stout, perhaps? Mmm, mix that in with a nice six-month old Provolone picante, and you'd have something with a bite worthy of a SharkFox.  ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 14 August 2013, 18:49:54
For some awful reason my first thought was of someone making Snookie a bondsman. I need to read better sometimes.  :o
...Ugh. She isn't even FROM New Jersey! Most of the cast isn't!
I wish I could declare a Trial of Annihilation against the entire crew.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 14 August 2013, 19:28:33
Dubliner with Stout, perhaps? Mmm, mix that in with a nice six-month old Provolone picante, and you'd have something with a bite worthy of a SharkFox.  ;D

The Sharkfox Cheesatorium:  Our pungent aroma can beat you in a Trial of Possession.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 14 August 2013, 19:32:50
The Sharkfox Cheesatorium:  Our pungent aroma can beat you in a Trial of Possession.

Probably not unless resperators are involved. We arent good with unscrubbed air these days. Quarian gypsy suits here we come.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 14 August 2013, 19:45:24
Probably not unless resperators are involved. We arent good with unscrubbed air these days. Quarian gypsy suits here we come.

Just as long as we don't have what happened in that one episode of Star Trek Voyager where Neelix's cheese somehow broke the ship.  We will produce our cheese planetside, thank ye very much!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 15 August 2013, 21:12:31
Just as long as we don't have what happened in that one episode of Star Trek Voyager where Neelix's cheese somehow broke the ship.  We will produce our cheese planetside, thank ye very much!

Imagine the Smoked Gouda Aimag.  Basically, a high-quality cheese cartel.  I could see it, in the Davion outback or quaint little war-torn Lyran worlds.   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 15 August 2013, 23:37:54
Imagine the Smoked Gouda Aimag.  Basically, a high-quality cheese cartel.  I could see it, in the Davion outback or quaint little war-torn Lyran worlds.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a Sea Fox Ristar in the building.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 15 August 2013, 23:41:50
I cant believe how hilarious the sea fox thread gets over food. But we should probably take that discussion to our clan protectorate thread in the warrior hall. We need you there jklantern!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 15 August 2013, 23:47:45
I cant believe how hilarious the sea fox thread gets over food. But we should probably take that discussion to our clan protectorate thread in the warrior hall. We need you there jklantern!

Maybe it's the headache, but I can't find the damn thing!

(Also, when am I NOT in character?)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 15 August 2013, 23:48:54
I just knocked it to the top. :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 15 August 2013, 23:55:31
I just knocked it to the top. :)

Amazingly, this trick works at my job, too.  Start talking about food and then SUDDENLY JANTERN!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 15 August 2013, 23:58:44
See I would have figured a mirror, triple repetition of your name, and bacon wrapped bacon was required.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 16 August 2013, 00:04:12
See I would have figured a mirror, triple repetition of your name, and bacon wrapped bacon was required.

The triple repetition of my name has unintentionally worked at least once.  That was one of the weirder times I've ever walked into a friend's apartment.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 16 August 2013, 14:56:47
Been playing with Megamek today and our RAT's. (which don't matter)

Oddly the Dasher II 2 doesn't show up in our rat at all (or the regular dasher for that matter. Which makes sense if they were only built for export I guess. But the Koshi, which was supposed to be only built to sell to the Inner Sphere is the most common design in our light RAT. Though, hopefully the Tiburon will replace it entirely soon. Looking forward to the Field Manual Rats.)'

Maybe it makes sense. We only really produce three lights.

The Fluff on the Dasher II for variants is really funny, glad I found it today. Though the XXL variants of the Rifleman and the Warhammer that it teases haven't materialized. I wonder if that will be in the print TRO. If it has a 'old is the new new' section.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 19 August 2013, 14:03:55
Been spending a lot of time with the RATs lately. We haven't been making the Grendel in a good 70 years and we're still littered with the things...

(though the same can probably be said for the Hunchback IIC and other clans.)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 20 August 2013, 12:04:19
I wasn't aware that Trellshire heavy industries took a hit in the bloody tricentennial. Or that Itabaiana got hit either.

Curious to see what we're manufacturing in 3145. Can't wait for this field Manual.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 20 August 2013, 13:22:38
The rebuilt Industriplex-C on Itabiana is supposed to be comparable to Talon when it was still around.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wolfgar on 21 August 2013, 11:38:42
question: who holds traiding rights in the following area.

Galactically south of the Rim Worlds Republic/commonality and Anti-spinward of the Free Worlds League

small system, lots of construction capability, little Germanium so its mostly concentrated on dropships not jumpships, but also has plenty of weapons and people willing to use them if others decide raiding is perferable to trading
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 21 August 2013, 16:31:47
question: who holds traiding rights in the following area.

Galactically south of the Rim Worlds Republic/commonality and Anti-spinward of the Free Worlds League

small system, lots of construction capability, little Germanium so its mostly concentrated on dropships not jumpships, but also has plenty of weapons and people willing to use them if others decide raiding is perferable to trading

Probably Spina Khanate.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 21 August 2013, 18:37:19
question: who holds traiding rights in the following area.


I'm not sure if you meant to coin a term, but I think 'traiding' describes rather well what the Sea Foxes do.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 21 August 2013, 22:50:49
question: who holds traiding rights in the following area.

Galactically south of the Rim Worlds Republic/commonality and Anti-spinward of the Free Worlds League

small system, lots of construction capability, little Germanium so its mostly concentrated on dropships not jumpships, but also has plenty of weapons and people willing to use them if others decide raiding is perferable to trading
  New St. Andrews has any germanium?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 22 August 2013, 16:32:39
Been spending a lot of time with the RATs lately. We haven't been making the Grendel in a good 70 years and we're still littered with the things...
(though the same can probably be said for the Hunchback IIC and other clans.)

We don't know when/if the Foxes halted production of the Grendel.  It could easily be one of the Omnis built at Industriplex-C during the Jihad or when it was rebuilt after the Bloody Tricentennial.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 22 August 2013, 22:43:06
We don't know when/if the Foxes halted production of the Grendel.  It could easily be one of the Omnis built at Industriplex-C during the Jihad or when it was rebuilt after the Bloody Tricentennial.

We damn well better be building it.  I like that thing.  Not as much as the Piranha mind you, but I like it all the same!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 22 August 2013, 22:46:21
Not in "objectives" we arent manufacturing it pre bloody tricential
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 22 August 2013, 23:06:23
Not in "objectives" we arent manufacturing it pre bloody tricential

Hang on, lemme go yell at our minions in the Isles.  We WILL be producing them, or else there shall not be pizza.   >:D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 23 August 2013, 06:06:25
Not in "objectives" we arent manufacturing it pre bloody tricential

There was an Ask the Writers about Shark omni production after Objectives came out and they did not produce any.  The response was that they had been building unknown omnis at Industriplex-C but had stopped for whatever reason prior to the date of Objectives, but omni production had restarted at the rebuilt facility.  So we don't know what omnis were being produced prior to Objectives or after being rebuilt.  My guess would be that Grendels were built at least during the period prior to Objectives and a decent chance at afterwards as well.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 23 August 2013, 10:52:28
Yeah its hard to say. On the one hand, Clan Sea Fox hasn't been fighting anyone at all. Their only attrition comes from the sector close to the Clan Invasion corridors and whenever one Aimag gets near another one. But the ritual fighting stops as soon as someone loses a limb.

On the other hand, That's a lot of Grendel's!

I hope they publish the Sea Fox ritual battles rules. It would be a fun supplement and a really fun grinder style event

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 23 August 2013, 12:53:21
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,27252.msg620292.html#msg620292

Hunted down that post
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 23 August 2013, 20:46:39
I bet the ilClan will have lots of extra goodies, like Wars of Reaving contained towards the back.  Stands to reason that the Clans might have new 'Mechs by then.  And maybe a few that we're producing or could produce.

   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 24 August 2013, 20:59:18
Our tradition as the Clan that names people silly names continues! In the Spirit of Angus Labov, Petr Kalasa's chosen successor Fergus Sennet has taken over the Ovkhanship of Delta Aimag.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 24 August 2013, 21:00:12
Got a real Irish Gaelic vibe going on there.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 24 August 2013, 21:01:57
We've got Antoinette too.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 24 August 2013, 21:06:09
Our Enclave on Shimonita sounds really lovely. Also. Minerals.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 24 August 2013, 21:25:44
Where are you getting this stuff, btw?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 24 August 2013, 21:41:28
Er 3145. For the names anyways. The full moon enclave is in antoinettes bio. But to learn about it you have to flip to "republic worlds" which is a free pdf on the downloads page.

A really fun thing ive been doing lately is punching a faction name into find on adobe acrobat and running through those pdf's. Mostly Spirit Cat and Sea Fox
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 10 September 2013, 00:59:29
This Rat is much better than the Era Report one!

Edit: Also the mystery we were facing is solved. The Sea Foxes are revealed to be even more mysterious!!! Time to look forward to the Ilclan book my fellow Warrior Merchants!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 10 September 2013, 13:23:31
So, no spoilers on how they're made up?  Where all the Arc's and the CargoShips came from?  What they look like?  What ships exist?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Sobakaa on 10 September 2013, 17:22:00
I'm worried about SeaFoxes after quick look through FM3145. Looks like Foxes are going the road of Fire Mandril, IlKhanate not being able to rule over the Clan effectively anymore - Khanates are mostly independent, even if they are still loyal to the Clan. On the bright side - looks like Foxes have the best equipment in the Sphere, if even the Wolf Empire is said to lose its trials to Foxes due to lack of top-tier gear.
No mentioning of Foxes plans for the future, but they are not preparing to conquer Terra, that's for sure.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 10 September 2013, 17:33:05
I second the wish to see ArkShip artwork.  Yes, I can imagine them as a pregnant version of whatever warship they once were (with multiple bumps, perhaps), but visual aids are more appealing in a way.  And it cuts out the whole "perhaps" part of it.

edit: I still picture them as they were described on Touring the Stars and The Human Sphere description docs, iirc.  Some of them are painted up all psychedelic and whatnot. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 10 September 2013, 19:09:18
I'm worried about SeaFoxes after quick look through FM3145. Looks like Foxes are going the road of Fire Mandril, IlKhanate not being able to rule over the Clan effectively anymore - Khanates are mostly independent, even if they are still loyal to the Clan. On the bright side - looks like Foxes have the best equipment in the Sphere, if even the Wolf Empire is said to lose its trials to Foxes due to lack of top-tier gear.
No mentioning of Foxes plans for the future, but they are not preparing to conquer Terra, that's for sure.

I think the Khan in both the ER and now FM has had a mention of trying to reestablish better communication which would allow for more control.  Honestly, with the HPG system down and the Clan being spread out more autonomy and some fracturing was bound to happen.

There was also some speculation that Tiburon's deal with the FedSuns may be part of a plan by the Khan.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 10 September 2013, 19:26:44
Don't get crazy. The Aimags may be getting more independent but that doesn't make us fire mandrills. We genuinely like each other. look at what happened to Clan Wolf when they tried to take on one Aimag

I think, "May split into separate factions" has been the obvious flaw for the Sea Foxes since the Era Report. But at the end of the day we're all Sea Foxes. I think there is more camaraderie than that. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 10 September 2013, 22:09:30
in 3085 we had one of the largest toumans, but it seems since then some of the other clans have far out paced us. Not sure how I feel about that.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 10 September 2013, 22:13:01
As roving gypsy-traders, do you really need the largest touman?  Wouldn't most effective be more useful?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 10 September 2013, 22:15:49
It also depends what we may or may not have off the books.  We're prone to slipperiness like that, you know.   :)  Hidden secrets need hidden forces to ensure their protection.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 10 September 2013, 22:18:02
There is that off the books stuff. We also don't really know what an Aimag is still. Though they seem to be organized similarly to clusters.

My real concern isn't in the amount of forces we have. More a concern about the amount of clusters the Jade Falcons and Wolves have. though the wolf clusters on paper are ignoring some of the difficulties they're having.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 10 September 2013, 22:21:58
I picture Aimags and Khanates as analogous to Clusters and Galaxies, so that makes sense.  We've gone all out to distance ourselves from our Homeworld Roots.  The Foxes are a very willful Clan, I feel.  I like that part as much as anything.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 10 September 2013, 22:24:53
and despite our compulsion for honor and nobility. Apparently very sneaky.

Looking back through the field manuals to try and figure out just what it is we may be after (Though I believe one Field Manual sums it up nicely. Survival. Which, I suppose, it may be safer to survive by being warrior traders than it is by being warriors alone) all of them describe us as being mysterious.

Well, in that, "We don't know what they're doing way" and not in that, "Tall dark and Handsome" way. Not that we aren't tall. Or handsome. Or dark...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 10 September 2013, 22:25:40
The Foxes are a very willful Clan, I feel.  I like that part as much as anything.

I agree. I've enjoyed all the tidbits we do get about our clan.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 10 September 2013, 22:31:33
As roving gypsy-traders, do you really need the largest touman?  Wouldn't most effective be more useful?

Quite the opposite.  They're so spread out that they can't possibly concentrate much force in any one place.  So they need to be big.  It's a lot like the Com Guard.  When you have units piecemealed out as IIs or IIIs all over the sphere, you've got to have massive numbers to have the chance of being that effective anywhere.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 10 September 2013, 22:40:40
Quite the opposite.  They're so spread out that they can't possibly concentrate much force in any one place.  So they need to be big.  It's a lot like the Com Guard.  When you have units piecemealed out as IIs or IIIs all over the sphere, you've got to have massive numbers to have the chance of being that effective anywhere.

Hopefully we have plenty of hidden forces built up by now.  I doubt we can find 50 comstar divisions of Star League Mechs cached away for a very rainy day.  ;)  But something to surprise aggressors (and Aggressors, maybe?) with. 

and despite our compulsion for honor and nobility. Apparently very sneaky.

Looking back through the field manuals to try and figure out just what it is we may be after (Though I believe one Field Manual sums it up nicely. Survival. Which, I suppose, it may be safer to survive by being warrior traders than it is by being warriors alone) all of them describe us as being mysterious.

Well, in that, "We don't know what they're doing way" and not in that, "Tall dark and Handsome" way. Not that we aren't tall. Or handsome. Or dark...

And that's a nice difference.  It satisfies my fandom to have risen from the Clan that was regarded as dishonorable and weak traders by the rest of the invading Clans, and probably the rest of the Clans too, more or less, to this current form.  Hopefully we can survive the upcoming tempest.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 10 September 2013, 23:01:22
Are the era report and fm the only sources of I of for the sea foxes?  I'm interested in Tiburon but want to get as much info as possible before getting miniatures and force lists and themes made  :D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 10 September 2013, 23:06:40
Are the era report and fm the only sources of I of for the sea foxes?  I'm interested in Tiburon but want to get as much info as possible before getting miniatures and force lists and themes made  :D

Paint them! I don't know what color they're supposed to be.... and technically there are tons of sources for Clan Sea Fox.

They are in the Novels Hunters of the Deep, Pandora's Gambit and to Ride the Chimera.

They have a large section in touring the Stars... and if you open up the MWDA Unique's PDF and do a search on Sea Foxes it'll stop you on almost every page for mechs. There are two warriors listed in that pdf as well.

Otherwise, yes. The Era Report and the Field Manual

The only paint schemes we've seen at all are the Ilclan's and Skate Khanate.

Skate is all dark blue (almost dark purple) with metallic cyan highlights. the Ilkhanate is the opposite. Its all metallic cyan with some dark blue (almost dark purple) highlights. You can see both in the Unique's pdf.

though I'm more interested in Tiburon and Spina Khanates schemes myself.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 10 September 2013, 23:13:10
Are the era report and fm the only sources of I of for the sea foxes?  I'm interested in Tiburon but want to get as much info as possible before getting miniatures and force lists and themes made  :D

Some info can be gleaned from TRO 3145 Mercs, but I'm sure you know that.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 11 September 2013, 08:04:26
 ;D

Okay, so there are some scheme bases.  Time to ponder...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 11 September 2013, 10:42:50
;D

Okay, so there are some scheme bases.  Time to ponder...

Just Josem Hawker (who is a jerk) http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=FP149 (http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=FP149) from Skate
and Najeh Hammond from the Ilkhanate http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=FP117 (http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=FP117)

Nothing on Fox Khanate, Spina Khanate or Tiburon Khanate. I'll run through Hunters of the Deep to see if they wrote anything about Spina Khanate colors.

Skate Khanates scheme is really dark.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 11 September 2013, 11:15:47
No mention of paint schemes in Hunters of the Deep. At least not in the chapters with mechs in them. Ritual Combat and the Battle of Stewart.

Nor are there any in Pandora's Gambit when the Sea Foxes hit the ground.

So it seems the only canon references to any paint are on those mini's.

(also thanks. I'd been hunting for details of the Battle of Stewart and didn't realize I'd already read the thing.)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 12 September 2013, 00:10:48
I found it a little odd Tiburon's Gamma Aimag is just regular for all the writing they got in both ER and FM 3145.  Just regular joe's with a string of unprecedented victories!  ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 12 September 2013, 00:23:54
Depending on how much damage they took doing it, the influx of new warriors could have brought their rating down?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 12 September 2013, 00:29:04
I found it a little odd Tiburon's Gamma Aimag is just regular for all the writing they got in both ER and FM 3145.  Just regular joe's with a string of unprecedented victories!  ;D

That is really strange. Well. Good Luck Federated Suns. We stripped our navies and sent out some amateurs to save your sorry lives!

In the Era Report one out of three of them have the sharpshooters ability! ... I think I may submit it as Errata.  ;D

Depending on how much damage they took doing it, the influx of new warriors could have brought their rating down?

They are over strength right now  :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 12 September 2013, 08:03:16
I found it a little odd Tiburon's Gamma Aimag is just regular for all the writing they got in both ER and FM 3145.  Just regular joe's with a string of unprecedented victories!  ;D
You're looking at it backwards. It's not that they should be elite b/c they have this string of unprecedented victories. The reason the string of victories is unprecedented is b/c they're just a bunch of regular joes.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 12 September 2013, 08:20:40
You're looking at it backwards. It's not that they should be elite b/c they have this string of unprecedented victories. The reason the string of victories is unprecedented is b/c they're just a bunch of regular joes.

True true... though in real life games regular's great so you don't have the pay the steeper veteran (2/3) or elite (1/2) BV modifiers! :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 September 2013, 02:19:14
9 variants for 3 chassis in the ntnu (new tech, new upgrades) section. We have been Industrious. Not statted out. But im looking forward to the Sea Fox officers variant of the mad cat ii
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 13 September 2013, 03:07:58
The beans.  Spill them, you will.  What's it look like?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 13 September 2013, 08:28:00
9 variants for 3 chassis in the ntnu (new tech, new upgrades) section. We have been Industrious. Not statted out. But im looking forward to the Sea Fox officers variant of the mad cat ii

3145 print TRO?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 September 2013, 10:50:35
3145 print TRO?

Yes. The new onn section. We have got mad cat iii, mad cat ii's and warhammer iic (our best products) in three new variants each. Looks like our phoenix hawk lines arent doing too much. If we even rebuilt them after the bloody tricentennial attacks.

The spirit cats have a favored shadow hawk iic variant.

But since the supply of shadow hawks and griffins (iic's) we used to refit came from the nova cats who knows if there is a supply of those mechs. May just be refitting what they own.

Alot of the descriptions are to vague to build yourself. Like the mad cat iii descriptionsbasically just says, "they made new ones! With guns and stuff!"

But some of the warhammer configs you could deduce and the mk ii configs might be to vague to build but they sound awesome!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 September 2013, 11:01:54
The beans.  Spill them, you will.  What's it look like?

The field manual? Well if you are like me and bought all of the tro's then you have the majority of the mechs in it already.

But like the field manual its written from the fortress republic perspective. But the mechs you have seen have new pilots in them. The tiburon has josem hawker who was a mwda unique. I love the tidbits about clan sea fox. We are getting fluffed a paragraph at a time. But usually they are awesome paragraphs. Josem is a jerk. But the dark age exclusives were. I think the capellan corridor does that to you.

The deployment section on the new raf units are good. Brings the story a bit further along.

Anastasia is the new savage wolf pilot featured.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 September 2013, 11:10:18
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jofNR_WkoCE&feature=youtu.be&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjofNR_WkoCE%26feature%3Dyoutu.be (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jofNR_WkoCE&feature=youtu.be&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjofNR_WkoCE%26feature%3Dyoutu.be)

Also this is obviously relevant to our sea fox conversation steeped in mystery and carried on by silly people.

Edit: using your phone for forums is tough.

Edit 2: using your phone for forums is impossible.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 13 September 2013, 12:01:26
The field manual? Well if you are like me and bought all of the tro's then you have the majority of the mechs in it already.

But like the field manual its written from the fortress republic perspective. But the mechs you have seen have new pilots in them. The tiburon has josem hawker who was a mwda unique. I love the tidbits about clan sea fox. We are getting fluffed a paragraph at a time. But usually they are awesome paragraphs. Josem is a jerk. But the dark age exclusives were. I think the capellan corridor does that to you.

The deployment section on the new raf units are good. Brings the story a bit further along.

Anastasia is the new savage wolf pilot featured.

I meant the new Officer's Mad Cat II.  but it sounds like from your other post that we don't really know.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 September 2013, 12:22:35
I meant the new Officer's Mad Cat II.  but it sounds like from your other post that we don't really know.

Lots of harjel everywhere apparently. :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 19 September 2013, 13:02:18
So, me being an OCD number cruncher, I thought I'd share these:

Clan Sea Fox Touman, FM: 3145, units assigned to the Space-borne Aimags of the Clan (not counting Planet-based Shoal Clusters)

Light Mechs
% Omni   67.13%
% Std   32.87%
% Clan   85.65%
% IS   14.35%

Most Common Mech = Tiburon

Medium Mechs
% Omni   70.83%
% Std   29.17%
% Clan   82.41%
% IS   17.59%

Most Common Mech = Nova

Heavy Mechs
% Omni   80.09%
% Std   19.91%
% Clan   92.59%
% IS   7.41%

Most Common Mech = Summoner

Assault Mechs
% Omni   43.06%
% Std   56.94%
% Clan   92.59%
% IS   7.41%

Most Common Mech = Mad Cat Mk. II (Enhanced)
   
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 19 September 2013, 13:17:45
Awesome work Bergie! I'm surprised we use that many summoners.

I will say that the Nova's on our lists are actually two different types. Half of them are the set configuration models and the other half are Omni's.

I'm really happy with the Tiburon being our flagship light mech. That thing is a beast.

I never know how I feel about the Mad Cat Mk II Enhanced. Love its art. Dislike its mini (Because of the long arm booms and the fact that the torso is half the size of the normal mad cat mk ii's. or the Savage Wolfs! Medium mech torso on that thing) But also its odd in combat. It doesn't put out the damage the paired gausses of the standard one does. Those ER Pulse Large's do good damage at range and usually hit. But for the most part I feel like it doesn't do a ton of damage, but can take a ton of it. So paired with other mechs, the other mechs will probably maul something to death before its ever dead. But it just doesn't put out the damage.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 19 September 2013, 13:28:40
Nope, the Black Hawk (Std) doesn't even show up on the Keshik or Front Line Tables of Clan Sea Fox.  These represent the Omni versions only.

We know that the RAT's don't actually represent the exact make-up of what mechs are out there, which is why I didn't include specific numbers per actual mech models, but they are good for showing a general trend.

Working on ASF/Dropship right now ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 19 September 2013, 13:31:44
I'm really happy with the Nagasawa being all over our RAT's now. Since the Era Report didn't give us any.

I had really been hoping for a new Sea Fox aerospace fighter in the products to protect our fleets. But I think we're just using Stars of Nagasawa's as fighters...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 19 September 2013, 13:46:55
Clan Sea Fox Touman, FM: 3145, units assigned to the Space-borne Aimags of the Clan (not counting Planet-based Shoal Clusters)

Light ASF
% Omni   69.44%
% Std   30.56%
% Clan   85.65%
% IS   14.35%

Most Common Fighter = Vandal

Medium ASF
% Omni   49.54%
% Std   50.46%
% Clan   95.37%
% IS   4.63%

Most Common Fighter = Ammon-XR

Heavy ASF
% Omni   75.00%
% Std   25.00%
% Clan   97.69%
% IS   2.31%

Most Common Fighter = Scytha

Military Dropships
% Clan   92.13%
% IS   7.87%

Most Common Military Dropship = Nagasawa
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 19 September 2013, 14:03:11
Clan Sea Fox Touman, FM: 3145, units assigned to the Space-borne Aimags of the Clan (not counting Planet-based Shoal Clusters)

Battle Armour

All CSF Battle Armour assigned to their Aimags is Clan-made, with the most common being the standard Elemental Suit (shockingly!)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 19 September 2013, 14:06:01
Give that light omimechs outnumber light battlemechs approximately 2:1, I'm pretty surprised to see a Battlemech being the most common light chassis.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 19 September 2013, 14:15:59
Give that light omimechs outnumber light battlemechs approximately 2:1, I'm pretty surprised to see a Battlemech being the most common light chassis.

Clan Sea Fox has always been pretty strange in that regard though. Historically we aided a lot scientifically to create the Omnimech. Then just kept quiet about it and let Coyote fight trials for the designs.

But when we were selling the Ha Otoko to the Inner Sphere we duked it out in second line machines with Omni-mechs to prove that its the warrior that really matters.

Now we push Tiburons, Black Hawks, Warhammer IIC's, Mad Cat Mk II's and proliferate Clan and IS markets with all but the first.
But now we're pushing Vulture IV's and Savage Wolves. Which is furthering the cause of the omnimech. So its a pretty strange relationship we have with the two kinds of mechs.

Clan Sea Fox Touman, FM: 3145, units assigned to the Space-borne Aimags of the Clan (not counting Planet-based Shoal Clusters)

Battle Armour

All CSF Battle Armour assigned to their Aimags is Clan-made, with the most common being the standard Elemental Suit (shockingly!)

I think that we're the primary manufacturer of the standard version because of the availability of harjel.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 19 September 2013, 14:39:30
Give that light omimechs outnumber light battlemechs approximately 2:1, I'm pretty surprised to see a Battlemech being the most common light chassis.

Assuming the RAT's are at least vaguely representative (which I know they aren't, but let's assume), the Tiburon makes up 25% of their total Light Mech inventory.  The next closest is the Fire Falcon omnimech at 15.74%.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 19 September 2013, 15:19:36
Assuming the RAT's are at least vaguely representative (which I know they aren't, but let's assume), the Tiburon makes up 25% of their total Light Mech inventory.  The next closest is the Fire Falcon omnimech at 15.74%.

I think that the Field Manual ones are pretty accurate. Sometimes there are mistakes on them. But for the most part its a good representation of the units that you will commonly found in a faction. What they're producing. What they're buying. etc.

If you do the work to figure out which faction is trading what and what they're making (Objectives, etc) then what they've got is usually pretty comprehensive.

The thing is, they never want it to be restrictive. Clan Sea Fox can field any mech in the Sphere as Isorla. So if you really want to pilot a WarWolf as a Sea Fox player that can be done. Easily. Won it in a trial against the Wolf Empire over next year supply of Widget A.

It would be pretty annoying to have another player tell you that you couldn't field a unit. So the Rats are just a guideline for that reason. But mechs are built at the speed of plot.

I'm happy we're trading the Falcons for Ullers now. Considering they make those things in limited supply runs that's nice. I love Ullers. (not that I need to with the Tiburon being beast mode.)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 19 September 2013, 15:46:47
Clan Sea Fox Touman, FM: 3145, units assigned to the Space-borne Aimags of the Clan (not counting Planet-based Shoal Clusters)

Light Armoured Vehicles
% Omni   0.00%
% Std   100.00%
% Clan   91.67%
% IS   8.33%
   
% VTOL   36.11%
% Hover   55.56%
% Tracked   0.00%
% Wheeled   8.33%

Most common armoured vehicle = Balac VTOL

Medium Armoured Vehicles
% Omni   11.11%
% Std   88.89%
% Clan   91.67%
% IS   8.33%
   
% VTOL   11.11%
% Hover   58.33%
% Tracked   30.56%
% Wheeled   0.00%

Most common armoured vehicle = Joust BE700

Heavy Armoured Vehicles
% Omni   2.78%
% Std   97.22%
% Clan   83.33%
% IS   16.67%
   
% VTOL   0.00%
% Hover   0.00%
% Tracked   75.00%
% Wheeled   25.00%

Most common armoured vehicle = Pike Fire Support Vehicle (Clan)

Assault Armoured Vehicle
% Omni   16.67%
% Std   83.33%
% Clan   83.33%
% IS   16.67%
   
% VTOL   0.00%
% Hover   0.00%
% Tracked   100.00%
% Wheeled   0.00%

Most common armoured vehicle = Morrigu and Heimdall (tied)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 19 September 2013, 15:48:31
Yeah. One of the odd things about the Field Manual is that numerically we've got one of the tiniest Clan Toumans. 30 clusters, spread out over the galaxy. Even though FM 3085 said without combat our Touman just kept growing. It could be that we just didn't build more units since then...

or that we're keeping our forces a secret. The Chainelines are stacked with units and some of our enclaves and people just don't know about it.

Honestly, each of our Aimags being a Galaxy of troops isn't bad at all for a nomadic, highly mobile fleet.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nerroth on 19 September 2013, 15:52:42
I wouldn't be surprised if the "off the books" forces out in the Chaine Cluster are being used on wide-ranging patrols across the coreward Deep Periphery, as the first tripwire against a future incursion by the Homeworld Clans (and thus cannot be spared for operations elsewhere, in the absence of a full-on Adder-led invasion).

At the time ISP3 was being compiled, the Council of Six had more leeway in terms of sparing ships and troops to go on such patrols. But with the recent turmoil in the Inner Sphere, could it be that the other Co6 Clans have effectively handed this responsibility off to the Sea Foxes; and that this is the key reason why no-one is being allowed get anywhere near the Chainelane Isles, lest the mask slip as to just what is going on out there?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 19 September 2013, 15:54:49
From the look of things, that only counts the AIMAG forces, without touching on the Planetary garrisons (Shoal Clusters).  We DON'T know a thing about them, but I figure they count as the equivalent (in the Foxes minds) as Solhama, militia, or Flurry units and as such are not counted in their 'official' touman.  Part of this could be that the Fox groups are so insular that nobody has a chance to actually SEE what they have stationed elsewhere, and only the readily apparent forces based observed with the Aimags are certain enough for the Republic intelligence to count.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 19 September 2013, 20:25:01
In touring the Stars we had 18 enclaves spread out in the Sphere. As well as the worlds we owned wholly.

Ignoring the couple of minutes we owned Stewart.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 19 September 2013, 22:34:43
Alas, FM3145 says that those Clearing House worlds have changed during the interviening 10 years.  Some have moved, some have stopped existing, and some are still there.  That is one of the reasons why the Foxes seem much more mysterious than the rest of the clans.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 21 September 2013, 00:34:26
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,33439.0/topicseen.html

A fun response and question. Though we probably have second line forces guarding our planets or the chainelines.

But we picket nagasawa's instead of fighters so good luck getting to them.  ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 21 September 2013, 00:43:25
The SL forces are probably those garrisoning their trading enclaves.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jellico on 21 September 2013, 02:06:44
I think that we're the primary manufacturer of the standard version because of the availability of harjel.
??? All Clan BA makes use of harjel.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 22 September 2013, 01:24:57
Savage Wolf mk iv is still driving me for a loop. Alphastrike wise it has one more armor than the original mad cat but two less internal structure. It tends to do more damage but thats almost all artemis v.

On the game board its more fragile but also heats up more because of the engine. So its only real advantages are its massive availibility. (Any faction can field a mad cat now.) And its tech. But I feel like you can add artemis to an old school mad cat.

No complaints about the vulture iv. Yeah the iii can dish out more damage so thats an equal fight. But it smashes the old school vulture and the old school mad cat can only boast a single extra point of structure.

No complaints on the tiburon either. That thing is amazing. Never heats up ever. Has all the cool bonuses of the dasher (d?) Other than being slower. But if it takes a hit it will probably be fine.

The savage wolf also shines in the character category. Something that shouldnt be discounted.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: SteveRestless on 22 September 2013, 01:59:54
Savage Wolf does potentially have one thing up on the Timber Wolf, but it's not reliable. Head can only mount 9 points of armor, so FerroLam's damage resistance IS helpful in preserving a pilot. At the same time, a hit against the head is a hit against the head, and the pilot still suffers

I'm convinced the real reason for the Savage Wolf is to sell maintenance contracts to keep the XXL engine and FL armor going. Its the smartphone mech. Sell it cheaper, subsidize it with the subscription plan.

Right now, I've been using it as a prestige ride in my CWX and CGB units. Same way I'm using the Warwolf in CWF. Goes to ristars, friends in high places, and those skilled enough to forcibly acquire them.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 22 September 2013, 18:45:44
I'm convinced the real reason for the Savage Wolf is to sell maintenance contracts to keep the XXL engine and FL armor going. Its the smartphone mech. Sell it cheaper, subsidize it with the subscription plan.

That's actually the Dasher II 2. It only exists to fund XXL engines.

I think the Savage Wolf needed to be different from the TimberWolf. As well as seem more advanced. But the TimberWolf is a pretty beast mode mech.

It uses every weight saving feature that the Clans had in 3050. Has maximum armor, is blazing fast for a heavy mech and uses all the weight it has left over to mount weaponry. Which is a considerable amount.

So how do you build a better TimberWolf? Well Ferro Lamellar armor is widely regarded as an improvement. But you don't get nearly as many armor points per ton.

You can't remove the amount of guns or it just doesn't feel like a Timber Wolf. So I think they made the best choice they could really. XXL engines give you more weight. So they kept the armor points nearly the same but made the armor tougher. Case II is a huge improvement. So is Arrow 5. But you can arguably mount those on the old TimberWolf frame.

I'm not sure that I'd have armored the Gyro. I think I'd have just maxed the armor on the thing. Consider that if they're through the armor you're already in trouble.

But I'm also missing a very important thing.

The availability of the Savage Wolf is amazing if you are, say, the Federated Suns.

But what I tend to forget is that the Savage Wolf's availability is also good if you're a Sea Fox. Since its definitely not the most common mech in Sea Fox RATs in the past. So will the XXL engine possibly doom it against its forefather? Its about 50/50. But other than fighting that min/maxed monster its a fantastic mech and we can use it!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 22 September 2013, 19:49:04
The Timber Wolf isn't min/maxed, it's just sensible.   ;)  The Clans' advantage was both in tech and in design. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 22 September 2013, 20:04:29
The Timber Wolf isn't min/maxed, it's just sensible.   ;)  The Clans' advantage was both in tech and in design.

 ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 22 September 2013, 20:58:56
Also entertaining is that we don't get a maps section in field manual 3145.. because we are where ever we want to be.  ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kat on 27 September 2013, 13:27:19
Does anyone happen to have info on Sea Fox paint schemes? CSO only has the diamond Shark schemes.

I figure that some of those might have been carried over, but with the Clan's new structure I'm not sure what units came from what galaxies.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 27 September 2013, 13:54:30
You have to look at the MWDA mini's. That's all we got.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kat on 27 September 2013, 14:09:15
Thanks, Bergie.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 27 September 2013, 14:18:39
Does anyone happen to have info on Sea Fox paint schemes? CSO only has the diamond Shark schemes.

I figure that some of those might have been carried over, but with the Clan's new structure I'm not sure what units came from what galaxies.

I've been working on that, but it might take a little time.  Needless to say I have descriptions for everything except Fox (and Psycho's taking up the banner for them at the moment) and am starting the process to get them hashed out :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kat on 27 September 2013, 14:59:55
Ooh, I'll be looking forward to that.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 04 October 2013, 11:02:39
We might be vikings...

Its from a marinejegerkommandoen tshirt. So not exactly ancient. But very clan sea foxy. Now to bring back the erikson bloodline.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 12 October 2013, 08:48:20
Sad that the Mad Cat Mk III variants are just retreds of the MWDA record sheets :( 

Prototypes is still the best of the bunch!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 12 October 2013, 23:15:58
Sad that the Mad Cat Mk III variants are just retreds of the MWDA record sheets :( 

Prototypes is still the best of the bunch!
Keep going up in tonnage, there's new Mad Cat II's as well.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 12 October 2013, 23:20:39
And warhammer iics!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 13 October 2013, 00:31:27
Keep going up in tonnage, there's new Mad Cat II's as well.

Yup, I had read the blurp on the III's and jumped there thinking I'd find something "new."  I'll stick with prototype's as the Artemis V and two tons of ammo per launcher make it "worth it" to me!  The Mad Cat II's are pretty cool as are the Warhammer IIc's.  As I'm painting one know, I noticed no new Grendel's.  I know not every 'mech can get something... poor guy's sad lol.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 October 2013, 10:51:47
Yup, I had read the blurp on the III's and jumped there thinking I'd find something "new."  I'll stick with prototype's as the Artemis V and two tons of ammo per launcher make it "worth it" to me!  The Mad Cat II's are pretty cool as are the Warhammer IIc's.  As I'm painting one know, I noticed no new Grendel's.  I know not every 'mech can get something... poor guy's sad lol.

I'm not sure we're still making Grendels. Clan Hells Horses and Sea Fox still field them. But I'm not sure it isn't just, "We have a lot left over." or not. =\

That Mad Cat III with the ppc and artemis 6 isn't bad. But I think Eve's variant is better.

Whats with all of our new Dominatrix Dasher II's?  ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 15 October 2013, 18:50:01
Dear Clan Sea Fox,
Please start up Sphinx production and ship it to the Protectorate.
Thank you.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 October 2013, 17:37:53
Something for you SharkFoxes . . .

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,34154.msg796713/topicseen.html#new (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,34154.msg796713/topicseen.html#new)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 16 October 2013, 19:19:34
Dear Clan Sea Fox,
Please start up Sphinx production and ship it to the Protectorate.
Thank you.

Some of the Sphinx variants are called 'Diamond Shark' variants in the 3085 book.

But I'm not sure if we just buy them from the Nova Cats like we did with Shadow Hawks and Griffins or if we make them. Though, the Spirit Cats have their own factories now
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 17 October 2013, 16:49:51
Some of the Sphinx variants are called 'Diamond Shark' variants in the 3085 book.

But I'm not sure if we just buy them from the Nova Cats like we did with Shadow Hawks and Griffins or if we make them. Though, the Spirit Cats have their own factories now

I thought there was a passage in the new ER or FM that hinted at the possibility the Foxes were producing the Sphinx.  When I get home I will try to find the mention.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 17 October 2013, 19:29:25
In RS 3145: NTNU the last sentence for the Sphinx says the Foxes sell both models, I guess implying they are making them?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 17 October 2013, 19:47:05
In RS 3145: NTNU the last sentence for the Sphinx says the Foxes sell both models, I guess implying they are making them?
Not a specific mention, but the first notable pilot for the Wendigo TRO entry says that after the Combine killed off the Nova Cats, they offered the Sea Foxes and opportunity to acquire some of the Nova Cat's stuff in exchange for helping dismantle and relocate some of the remaining factories.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 17 October 2013, 23:46:28
Used a Marauder mk ii 4 yesterday. That thing has alot of ammo! Also its really impressive. Especially in atow.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 18 October 2013, 15:21:39
Used the Tiburon the other day and they were fun heh.  Little expensive BV-wise but effective.

Ran a star the other day using the RATs (Mad CAt Mk IV Prime, Grendel D, Goshawk II, Cougar Prime, Arctic Fox B) against some Marik militia units (all 3050 upgrade models plus a royal Highlander)  They had 200ish tons on me and made it interesting, but it's the bot so I only lost the Goshawk II.  Arctic Fox was almost dead as well, but the other three cleaned up the final stragglers.  Interesting game, especially for a random force.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 18 October 2013, 18:58:46
Silly question , but do we have much files for the 3145 mechs now?  Didn't see them in the latest MM
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 18 October 2013, 19:03:35
Silly question , but do we have much files for the 3145 mechs now?  Didn't see them in the latest MM

They have to wait for them to pass a moratorium period. I think they can add them after three months or so.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 18 October 2013, 19:25:08
Used the Tiburon the other day and they were fun heh.  Little expensive BV-wise but effective.

The Tiburon is a blast. Its mp isn't the best for alpha strike play, but its a slower version of that awesome Dasher variant with the targeting computer and the medium lasers.  ;D

The first grinder I ever played in I took one and had a goal of keeping it unharmed. Managed to achieve my goal! (And won the game, by a series of technicalities that any Sea Fox should appreciate)

Quote
Ran a star the other day using the RATs (Mad CAt Mk IV Prime, Grendel D, Goshawk II, Cougar Prime, Arctic Fox B) against some Marik militia units (all 3050 upgrade models plus a royal Highlander)  They had 200ish tons on me and made it interesting, but it's the bot so I only lost the Goshawk II.  Arctic Fox was almost dead as well, but the other three cleaned up the final stragglers.  Interesting game, especially for a random force.

It took me awhile to figure out that the Savage Wolf and the TimberWolf are really different mechs.  ;D The Savage Wolf is an amazing Fire Support Platform. Like the old Mad Dog. The Timber Wolf is a good Cavalry/Brawler mech.

These days in Clan Sea Fox I think the Vulture IV does most of our infighting with the Savage Wolf giving fire support... kind of a flip from the previous years. Though the primary Savage Wolf with the streak launchers isn't bad close up. The feel like the best one is the one Paul built. The one with the LRM's, ER Large Lasers and Case II. You don't have to put your massive engine in to much danger with that one. Just hang back and make people miserable.

I'm still not sure how I feel about these new Dasher II's. On one hand, they'll never show up in the first place because our second line forces are a mystery to everyone! But on the other that Dasher II 3 has full armor (That same weird movement profile as the Tiburon) a scary clan ppc and claws. While the other one has rabies or something!

Is there anything about the Dasher II 4 that isn't insane? The more I look at it the more confused I get.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 18 October 2013, 20:40:17
I used the Mad Cat Mk IV Prime up close to support the speedy little buggers (well, and the Cougar was pacing the Mk IV and providing LPL's and LRM's in the mix as well.)  The ferro lamellor worked well for that and made it hard enough to deal with.  Backstabbers stabbed and did their thing.

I do agree the Vulture Mk IV is the trooper of the whole equation for Shark forces, though I've been thinking of using faster 'mechs like the Tiburon, Hellion, Goshawk II, Grendel, or Arctic Wolf II.  Support with hovers, VTOL's, and BA and enjoy.  Like a fast paced trading envoy capable of rapid reaction.  Or something. 

Of course, seeing a Tiburon, Goshawk II, or Arctic Wolf II miniature in the next year is probably slim to nonexistent. :(
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 19 October 2013, 09:55:48
Which is a shame. I could use a tiburon mini or five.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Baron RedSkull on 19 October 2013, 16:41:41
Which is a shame. I could use a tiburon mini or five.

I would also love a Tiburon. 2 questions: What colors to paint it, and who do I have to threaten to make this a reality in the next 6 months?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 19 October 2013, 17:27:59
I have no offical in with IWM... I just figure since I want it it won't be out for awhile.

As for offical schemes, well, I'm working on that!  ;D

Finished up a Warhammer IIc 8 for Tiburon Khanate to go with a Grendel i did as a proof-of-conecpt for their scheme!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 19 October 2013, 17:32:18
I love the way warhammer iic's look. I love the way diamond shark products look now.

I never loved the pirahna or thresher. But mad cat 2-4 warhammer iic's, vulture iv and tiburon are all gorgeous mechs.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 20 October 2013, 20:13:46
You know, I've never used the Grendel B.  The UAC-5's just a joke.  Maybe I'll be changing my mind after today.  Used one in MM and set the gun on double rate to burn through the ammo.  Now, while I was running through a game against defenders of the FedSuns (465 tons to 250 tons,) this guy cleaned up, taking four kills out of five total units on the field. 

We were combined firing of course because the bot can't be trusted to duel.  No matter.  The Grendel B was on fire.  Arctic Wolf II Prime was also a nice closer who kept obliterating 'Mechs that had already been destroyed.  Solitaire was it's normal self, while the Vulture Mk IV A was a great trooper.  Also tried the Omen, and while it isn't on the RAT's, the presence of a Deimos makes me think that there could be a chance.  It performed well as well.  The suns had, uh a 2G Warlord, 3S Caesar, 8D Warhammer, 8D Ostsol, 9D Dervish, 10SR Hellspawn, XL Blade, 11D Javelin, and a 11D Fireball.  All rolled from their RAT's using no modifiers.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 21 October 2013, 20:07:52
So I was going to build a freeborn in ATOW and noticed...

Things have to be nuts in the Chaineline islands for their characters to be starting with Wealth.  ;D Man.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 01 December 2013, 11:22:06
Im trying to find the passage that talks about how our clan trades bondsmen With little success. Invariably I find these things then forget qhere they are when I need them. Ill make an index some day.

Anyways, reading the history again I find it ironic that the wolves issued a trial of grievance against our bidding practices. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 01 December 2013, 11:46:18
The bondsman thing is in clans warriors of kerensky.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 31 December 2013, 23:34:56
Happy New Years my fellow Foxes!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 01 January 2014, 00:36:47
Happy New Year from an undercover swamp fox still living amid the reavings. 

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 01 January 2014, 01:20:31
It's still 2013 where I am.  How's the future so far, lads?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 01 January 2014, 02:47:24
1 hour and 47 minutes in, and we're still here! 

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Vash The Stampede on 20 January 2014, 10:57:24
What I appreciate about the Foxes is how they go against the grain that many staunch clanners seem trapped in. Sea Fox appears very opportunistic in their dealings with other factions. Plus, they gave us the Mad Cat II
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Diamondshark on 20 January 2014, 21:33:12
True, and the III. They also remind me of the Khajiit in skyrim, but IN SPAAAAACE! That's always a plus.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 21 January 2014, 00:53:21
http://miracleofsound.bandcamp.com/track/khajiit-like-to-sneak
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 21 January 2014, 00:55:32
That song is adorable.

I love my fellow foxes.  ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 23 January 2014, 23:02:12
So I've been looking into it for awhile. Bergie looked into it.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,33825.msg788859.html#msg788859
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,33290.msg777631.html#msg777631

I think someone asked as well.

I'm starting to think the true answer is this.

An Aimag is as big as that Aimag can afford to make itself big. I've got nothing to back that up really. But I get the feeling that the more 'trade successful' an aimag is the more likely it is better armed.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 23 January 2014, 23:10:00
Sounds good to me.  Until we know for sure, if the size of an Aimag even gets defined.  Simple and elegant. 


Does the ilKhanate take a cut from the Aimags, as well as reap profit from its own operations?  That's another that seems possible, but I don't know if it's defined. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 23 January 2014, 23:17:50
Sounds good to me.  Until we know for sure, if the size of an Aimag even gets defined.  Simple and elegant. 

Does the ilKhanate take a cut from the Aimags, as well as reap profit from its own operations?  That's another that seems possible, but I don't know if it's defined.

Yes. One of the primary reasons Sha Clarke tried to make his Aimag independent in the novel 'Hunters of the Deep"
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 24 January 2014, 21:29:31
I'm now picturing the Sea Foxes as the Mob in space.  And it's kinda rad.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 24 January 2014, 21:32:58
I'm now picturing the Sea Foxes as the Mob in space.  And it's kinda rad.

*shudder* the mob has really lost its style. We are the best dressed faction!

But maybe. Being stuck on ships together is definitely making us families
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dropkick on 01 February 2014, 16:07:50
Is there any mention of the sea foxes trading with the Emperio D'Escorpian? 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 01 February 2014, 17:51:27
Is there any mention of the sea foxes trading with the Emperio D'Escorpian?

None at all. Escorpio Imperio are still a homeworld Clan (albeit an abjured one) and are as such still 'the enemy' to the Council of Six. Attempting to deal with them would have several major obstacles to deal with, not the least of which is the downright paranoia and "shoot first, ask questions later" attitude that the Scorpions seem to have adopted. Additionally, there's the risk of contact with the Star Adders/Clound Cobras who are known who are known to be active in the region. They're not going to take kindly to the Foxes and are also going to be of a "shoot first" mindset

Finally, there's logistics and distance to consider. It's a long way from the IS/Channelaine Isles to the Imperio, and with all the Clan Waystations along the way apparently destroyed, there's no infrastructure to support such a trading mission. That and, of course, homeworld clan warships on the prowl.

Besides, the last update on Escorpio Imperio was in the 3090s. Its uncelar if it even exists in 3145.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 16 February 2014, 10:45:13
We dont have a machine with harjel 3 wrapped in ferro lamellor yet. I wonder when we will get the sea fox zombie mech?

I mean other than the enhanced... and that seems like a good place to start.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 16 February 2014, 15:48:05
I'm a bit slow on the uptake I guess.

So we have been talking about the Warhawk lately and how its almost extinct in the Inner Sphere. Which lead me to read about how after the Wars of Possession design specs for the Warhawk went to the Goliath Scorpions, Fire Mandrills and Clan Diamond Shark.

So my thoughts were, "I didn't see them make a production run of the Masakari in the home worlds. I wonder if it is still possible for them to make them. Maybe they can build them on the mobile factories or Tukayyid." But looking at the RATs Clan Diamond Shark/Sea Fox doesn't have a lot of Masakari's.

So then I thought, "The legs on the Mad Cat and the Warhawk are the same." Then realized that the MK II isn't that different from a Warhawk in other design ways either...

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:MadcatMkII.jpg
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:3050U_Masakari.jpg

So then I also remember that the Mad Cat Mk II came out in fifteen months with no problems. So I flip back to the Technical Readout to verify:

Quote
By basing their new design upon an existing Battlemech, the Diamond Shark engineers cut their development time sharply, putting the Mad Cat Mk II into full-scale production in less than fifteen months

I always assumed that by basing their design off of the Timber Wolf they were easily able to put it into production...

But it isn't based off the TimberWolf.. and the Warhawk isn't quite dead. It may even be doing quite well these days.

Edit: Extra stuff

Mad Cat MK II

64.8 kph top speed.
45 tons of weapon space
13 tons of armor.

6 ton difference in heat sinks

Masakari

64.8 kph top speed.
32.5 tons of weapon space.
13.5 tons of armor
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 16 February 2014, 16:08:15
They aren't quite the same legs.  Different foot construction, etc.  But, I do like the idea, and am willing to make it part of my headcanon.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: WeaponX on 16 February 2014, 16:55:47
So we have been talking about the Warhawk lately and how its almost extinct in the Inner Sphere. Which lead me to read about how after the Wars of Possession design specs for the Warhawk went to the Goliath Scorpions, Fire Mandrills and Clan Diamond Shark.

I think that the Warhawk evolved into the Tomahawk, which is 15 tons heavier and is being built by Clan Wolf.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 16 February 2014, 19:04:05
I think that the Warhawk evolved into the Tomahawk, which is 15 tons heavier and is being built by Clan Wolf.

The tomahawk is a dire wolf. :)

They aren't quite the same legs.  Different foot construction, etc.  But, I do like the idea, and am willing to make it part of my headcanon.

Different molds for the lower legs. Hips belong to assault mechs though.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 16 February 2014, 19:07:12
I maintain that the Sharkfoxes secretly have a set of blueprints for a whole bunch of "extinct in the Sphere" designs, because you never know WHEN you might need them.   O0
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wolfgar on 17 February 2014, 10:45:57
I maintain that the Sharkfoxes secretly have a set of blueprints for a whole bunch of "extinct in the Sphere" designs, because you never know WHEN you might need them.   O0

Any idea what they might be willing to take for copies of them?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bergie on 17 February 2014, 11:05:28
I'm big into souls right now...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wolfgar on 17 February 2014, 13:08:33
How about initial purchase options for the first ten years of production and a pre-star league entertainment core.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 17 February 2014, 17:46:02
How about the rights to the Sol System and Terra?   >:D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Josva Valdreki on 17 February 2014, 17:55:21
Any idea what they might be willing to take for copies of them?

I might just be spit-ballin', here, but I think it would be… money. Or resources. Something they can use. Something that they need. And probably a substantial quantity of it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 17 February 2014, 19:09:16
Any idea what they might be willing to take for copies of them?

Its pretty easily converted into a Warhawk. You really just need to mod in a targeting computer without botching your technician rolls. :) Other than the way its armed its superior to the Warhawk. If you've got a Mad Cat MK II - 4 You just scrap one of the LRM launchers for a targeting computer and its the same mech.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 17 February 2014, 23:05:31
I'm big into souls right now...

Seconded.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 19 February 2014, 19:37:25
Indeed, we can take planets, and other things that go jump in the dark.  ;D  If we wanted to. 

But historically speaking, some customers are made to pay big sometimes, and that's when it is great to be a Sea Fox fan.  The big deal that keeps harjel flowing (When the flow of gunk stops, all eyes will turn to Twycross!) or the deal that brings us planets, or access to IS materials, resources and production sites to adopt and make our own. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 19 February 2014, 20:10:49
And lets definitely not forget what happens to those who try to take the products and/or services we (and our affiliates) provide without paying.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 22 February 2014, 16:02:12
And lets definitely not forget what happens to those who try to take the products and/or services we (and our affiliates) provide without paying.

Lest it happen again.  We're spread out, but the Khanates have no problem taking things into their own hands when they need to, which is awesome, of course.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wolfgar on 22 February 2014, 20:44:51
Or hiring those of us who know how to steal it back.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 22 February 2014, 20:53:49
Or hiring those of us who know how to steal it back.

We dont do mercenaries. (Because we kind of are mercenaries)

We have trueborns for that.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Josva Valdreki on 22 February 2014, 21:39:16
We dont do mercenaries. (Because we kind of are mercenaries)

We have trueborns for that.

And the Watch for everything else.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: marauder648 on 12 March 2014, 06:29:37
Can I just thank the Sea Foxes for introducing the Tiburon now and not having it present for the Invasion.  Having seen the specs for that mech its probably one of the most evil Clan lights i've ever seen save the Hellion.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: StCptMara on 12 March 2014, 09:12:32
Can I just thank the Sea Foxes for introducing the Tiburon now and not having it present for the Invasion.  Having seen the specs for that mech its probably one of the most evil Clan lights i've ever seen save the Hellion.

Yes...yes it is.  And, of course, everytime it kills something witht he same movement type as it, it repairs a cli-
Er...sorry, wrong game ;)

But, yes..the Tiberon is nice.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: marauder648 on 12 March 2014, 09:28:57
Very very nice, I was looking at the TRO3145 and its got to be one of the best lights i've ever seen, its more like a medium in drag, but then again thats any big clan light if designed properly which was clearly done with the Tib.

Any for sale...just on the off chance...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 12 March 2014, 10:17:05
Very very nice, I was looking at the TRO3145 and its got to be one of the best lights i've ever seen, its more like a medium in drag, but then again thats any big clan light if designed properly which was clearly done with the Tib.

Any for sale...just on the off chance...

Actually one of the two designs that are proprietary to Clan Sea Fox right now.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: marauder648 on 12 March 2014, 10:41:35
Actually one of the two designs that are proprietary to Clan Sea Fox right now.

Aye I know, and I don't have a dropship to tempt you with to part hands with just one.  Ahh well!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 12 March 2014, 11:09:52
It is a really fun design to play. You get to shoot everything every round with no repercussions.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: marauder648 on 12 March 2014, 11:30:19
Aye its a more sane version of the Hellion really, trading some firepower for a more balanced heat system and a nice EW package.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 12 March 2014, 11:56:58
Can I just thank the Sea Foxes for introducing the Tiburon now and not having it present for the Invasion.  Having seen the specs for that mech its probably one of the most evil Clan lights i've ever seen save the Hellion.
The really fun one is the MWDA variant that trades the ERMLs for HMLs.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: marauder648 on 12 March 2014, 11:58:06
The really fun one is the MWDA variant that trades the ERMLs for HMLs.

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water...

Team one of those up with a http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Solitaire and you'd have a pair of high speed and massively well armed lunatics.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 12 March 2014, 12:03:56
*grumbles about getting beat up by a tiberon* I like them, they're alot more fun to see in action than what the books described.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: marauder648 on 13 March 2014, 02:51:53
Assuming mech's have external speakers and if I recall they do, when a Solitare runs around at full speed it should start blaring out the woody the wood pecker 'hoo-ho-hahah-hohoo!' noise that he did.  That mech's bloody insane.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ds9guy on 14 March 2014, 02:27:55
Do you guys think the Sea fox clan has any warships that weren't converted into arkships? 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: marauder648 on 14 March 2014, 03:04:01
If I recall they have some smaller warships, a few destroyers/corvettes but their main fleet appears to be combat dropships and i'd not be supprised if they didn't have some PWS of their own.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 14 March 2014, 03:23:00
Do you guys think the Sea fox clan has any warships that weren't converted into arkships?

Sure. The ones that were converted into CargoShips. ;)

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 14 March 2014, 11:26:18
Do you guys think the Sea fox clan has any warships that weren't converted into arkships?

Most of their warships are Merchant Carracks. Potemkin overhauls make up the Arcships.

They do have a few regular carracks, a Lola III and A Sovetskii Soyuz.

But I think you also see a desire to demilitarize them so they aren't such huge targets. We have Nagasawa's for making people bleed. Best if people leave the fleets alone.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 17 March 2014, 11:42:46
Hard for the merchants to receive warm receptions from the indigs when WarShips are overhead.

Sometimes you want to play hardball, sure, but all stick and no carrot is a bad strategy in the long term.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 26 March 2014, 21:11:50
So I've been confused about something. How does Clan Sea Fox handle Trials of Bloodright now? It seems like the Sea Fox bloodname houses are pretty scattered among the Khanates.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 26 March 2014, 21:15:59
I think the aimags and khanates meet periodically for just that purpose.  Also to renew ties and reinforce that they're all one Clan.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 26 March 2014, 21:23:30
So I've been confused about something. How does Clan Sea Fox handle Trials of Bloodright now? It seems like the Sea Fox bloodname houses are pretty scattered among the Khanates.

They just get together and do it. They talk about it in Hunters of the Deep. About the expense of running a trial of bloodright but how they are necessary.

Though in that book, for narrative purposes only two khanates met.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 26 March 2014, 21:25:19
I think the aimags and khanates meet periodically for just that purpose.  Also to renew ties and reinforce that they're all one Clan.

Yeah. In theory there should be a 'council' every now and again too. Where all the bloodnamed get together to vote on things.

Keep in mind Clan Sea Fox bloodnamed can 'step down' and just be part of the normal castes eventually. Makes you wonder if they retire that bloodname (But they don't seem to)

Also means in a lot of instances those lower castes (I can't imagine laborers) but the others end up having votes in the Council. If you are a bloodnamed Merchant you aren't about to vote against yourself.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 26 March 2014, 21:38:37
I also wonder how sibkos are handled. Does each Khanate create/train their own sibkos? Or are they handled collectively somehow? Can each Khanate pull from the full genetic repository of the Clan or does bloodheritages/genetic legacies "belong" to one Khanate or another?

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 26 March 2014, 21:41:45
I would imagine a little of A. and a little of B.  As the legacies belong to the Clan as a whole, they should be able to use them all.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 26 March 2014, 21:44:04
I also wonder how sibkos are handled. Does each Khanate create/train their own sibkos? Or are they handled collectively somehow? Can each Khanate pull from the full genetic repository of the Clan or does bloodheritages/genetic legacies "belong" to one Khanate or another?

Maybe some insight into that in the background of Antoinette Labov. She is from the Full Moon enclave on Shimonita. Its a Republic Enclave, but Clan Sea Fox has quite a few enclaves spread out among the Inner Sphere. Or at least, at one point there was definitely 14 of them in the touring the stars information.

So its possible and probable that Sibko's are raised on those enclaves.

I like the idea that they are all on a space ship so I'm certain that the Sea Fox ships are a lot more 'lived in' than other clan ships. I imagine that at least freeborns are born and raised in the traveling aimags. Though all trueborns coming from an enclave makes a little bit of sense.

A lot of Clan Sea Foxes enclaves have moved and the clan makes being enigmatic its calling card. So some of it is hard to say.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 26 March 2014, 21:49:08
Can each Khanate pull from the full genetic repository of the Clan or does bloodheritages/genetic legacies "belong" to one Khanate or another?

Well 'Trials of Propagation are a thing. So you probably see a rise in prominence of several blood houses simply because they need more blood named to fill out aimags.

Exclusive bloodnames are definitely more sought after and honestly you probably see them clustered rather than spread out. only two Clarkes lead aimags in FM 3145 and they are in two separate khanates. There was a third, Sha Clarke but that blood lineage has been reaved I believe.

The blood names are pretty spread out. But Clan Sea Foxes visible assets are only 30 clusters large.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nav_Alpha on 26 March 2014, 21:53:22
This actually brings up a question i have been thinking about - I've been toying with the concept of a Republic-born Sea Fox character for a while now. Maybe even one from Shimonita.
What do you think they do in the post-blackout era? Join the Republic military for experience?
What about post-blackout? Do you think some would stay faithful to the Republic? End up inside prefecture X? Would they be trusted?

What's everyone's thoughts?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 26 March 2014, 22:02:34
This actually brings up a question i have been thinking about - I've been toying with the concept of a Republic-born Sea Fox character for a while now. Maybe even one from Shimonita.
What do you think they do in the post-blackout era? Join the Republic military for experience?
What about post-blackout? Do you think some would stay faithful to the Republic? End up inside prefecture X? Would they be trusted?

What's everyone's thoughts?

Shimonita has been reconquered by the Draconis Combine. The Full Moon Enclave was likely left alone. The Sea Foxes own a planet in the Draconis Combine after all and even with the anti-clan sentiments stirred up that destroyed Clan Nova Cat that world has been staying strong. It sounded like for awhile the Draconis Combine owed the Sea Foxes some pretty big favors. But for whatever reason the Sea Foxes seem fairly safe for the moment.

Sea Foxes seem to be willing to participate or even earn Republic citizenship. Post fortress that is not going to matter anymore really. Antoinette's loyalty seems to be to Clan Sea Fox. But she is a republic citizen and has even made friendships with really important republic citizens.

So I imagine a Sea Fox character pre-blackout and even pre-fortress is probably helpful towards the Republic. We aren't an antagonistic clan really.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nav_Alpha on 26 March 2014, 22:07:06
But do you think many would stay in service to the Republic as it crumbled, etc or would most jump ship back to the clan?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 26 March 2014, 22:09:38
But do you think many would stay in service to the Republic as it crumbled, etc or would most jump ship back to the clan?

Antoinette was part of the Full Moon enclave's militia which is technically how she was serving with the Republic military. Apparently Tiburon has a close working relationship with the Republic...

But a Sea Fox is a Sea Fox.

At the same time, depending on the story that you want to tell a Sea Fox can get into all manner of trouble in the Republic while fighting off bandit factions preying on it after the blackout... or even because of its own Senate.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Manchu on 27 March 2014, 16:13:02
Just stopping by to say your Sigma Galaxy has a beautiful paint job.

What kind of battles have they been involved in? (As in fighting, not financing.)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 27 March 2014, 18:31:45
Just stopping by to say your Sigma Galaxy has a beautiful paint job.

What kind of battles have they been involved in? (As in fighting, not financing.)

Sigma galaxy is actually a garrison cluster back in the homeworlds. So any sort of trials being waged can involve them. Prior to the great refusal they probably scrap with the Smoke Jaguars the most often since the Jaguars took exception to the way that Clan Diamond Shark treats its lower castes. But any clan can be a good fight.

We actually lose track of Sigma Galaxy after Field Manual updates. But that book has then scrapping with Ice Hellions.

They show up again in Field Manual 3085... and by show up I mean, "They are rumored to exist" which means that they survive the homeworlds fight. Sigma is bigger then,

At that point Rho Spina and Zeta galaxies are gone. Presumably destroyed in the fighting against the Steel Vipers.

If you would like to play Sigma galaxy then one of the best opportunities is the Wars of Reaving.

The Vipers hit Strato-Domingo, Paxon and Babylon in force but the defending forces weren't listed.

Sigma should be there somewhere and after some intial setbacks the Sharks manage to push the Vipers back and pay in blood. Until they unleash their Leviathan Prime which savaged one of our naval stars.

But at least we made them tip their hand and we did it in true shark faction. Pushing Zell to its breaking point and being magnificent bastards.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 27 March 2014, 18:34:18
As a side note, after that point and the turn of the century we reorganized all of our units into Aimag's.

So at that point Sigma possibly doesn't exist. On the other hand, No one can break through the Chainelanes defenses, they can't really get into our enclaves and they don't know whats on our ships.

So Sigma may still be a second line garrison cluster out there somewhere. Or its forces may have been broken up and spread out among different Aimags.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Manchu on 27 March 2014, 18:37:29
Aimags, sigh. Well, I hope they preserved across the reorganization.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 27 March 2014, 18:45:11
Hey Manchu.  Falcons are always welcome, as long as they keep calm and buy more harjel  O0

Aimags seem to correlate to Clusters, so the organization is not that different.  Sigma would possibly be a Khanate's predecessor, though which one is the question. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 27 March 2014, 19:01:31
Aimag is mongolion for community... seems we really are space faring warrior merchant gypsies these days.

All aimags are composed of first line formations. Our old second line formations may still be out there in the chainelanes or garrisoning tukayyid, itabainna or twycross.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Pa Weasley on 28 March 2014, 15:38:55
Soooooooo anyone popped over to Camospecs recently? (Oh look, there's a handy button toward the top of the page.)  8)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 28 March 2014, 15:59:29
 ^-^
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 28 March 2014, 16:42:49
Awwww yeaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!
Those are some sick paint schemes!!

EDIT: Thanks, CSO team, for the awesome paintjobs and for canonizing some new schemes for us foxes! I know what I'm gonna be painting up next...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 28 March 2014, 16:49:13
Awesome job psycho and savage coyote!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 28 March 2014, 17:09:54
We/I have the other Khanatae's fleshed out but not painted.  If I can find sometime between projects and stuff I want to get at least one of each done :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 28 March 2014, 17:48:37
We/I have the other Khanatae's fleshed out but not painted.  If I can find sometime between projects and stuff I want to get at least one of each done :)

Woah, seriously?!  [drool]
Can't wait to see them!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 28 March 2014, 19:36:59
So in the Tiburon write up in TRO 3145: Mercenaries Epsilon Aimag drops Two Clusters on a pirate base.

It does not say if another Aimag was helping them. It does mention what Khanate they're from.

Looks like Clan Sea Fox hasn't lost their edge at keeping their numbers secret.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 28 March 2014, 19:39:22
Or it's an error by the writer of that entry.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 28 March 2014, 19:41:44
Or it's an error by the writer of that entry.

I meant to write that too.  ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Sharpnel on 29 March 2014, 06:11:01
New sea Fox mechs up with all new paint schemes

http://www.camospecs.com/Miniature.asp?ID=6908
http://www.camospecs.com/Miniature.asp?ID=6909
http://www.camospecs.com/Miniature.asp?ID=6910

Psycho and Savage Coyote did some awesome work
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 29 March 2014, 09:04:56
Wow.....amazing work there.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 29 March 2014, 10:07:57
Makes me proud to be a Shark Fox  O0  Great work, Camo Specs!!!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 31 March 2014, 18:04:51
So the subject has been approached in other topics. But perhaps our own topic is a good place for it.

What are the Sea Fox opinions about Compassion?

I suppose that this question actually hinges upon whether or not there are Shark Foxes besides Rebs and myself. I know that sometimes I see Bergie. Wellspring seems to be well and truly gone, which is a shame.

I am certain that there are many Shark Foxes that are silent. But for the vocal ones what do you think?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Manchu on 31 March 2014, 18:53:47
I understand you aren't soliciting my opinion here but I don't get a strong sense of compassion from Clan Sea Fox. I see their overall stance as the forward-facing aspect of opportunism.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 31 March 2014, 19:06:57
I understand you aren't soliciting my opinion here but I don't get a strong sense of compassion from Clan Sea Fox. I see their overall stance as the forward-facing aspect of opportunism.

Oh, any opinions are welcome. We are happy to have you here. :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 31 March 2014, 19:12:34
I believe the Shark-Foxes are very good at pretending to be compassionate... but really it's about ingratiating themselves with potential marks/customers.

But that's just my cynical Raven opinion ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 31 March 2014, 19:16:29
Shark-Foxes pretend to care for as long as it takes to make the sale.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Manchu on 31 March 2014, 19:32:51
I think we are all thinking external relations with our answers so far. But what about regarding internal relations, as for example among the castes or with conquered populations?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 31 March 2014, 19:38:57
We coddle our castes, for one thing.  According to the other Clans.  But Sea Foxes never really deal in the term conquered populace.  I think they assimilated what they wanted and are done with that phase of evolution.  The Sea Foxes have always had an eye toward pushing the envelope of what it means to be Clan. 

Unlike other Clans that have suffered for such things, and were Annihilated or Absorbed, the Sea Foxes won their Trials.  That is the explanation handed down in the books for how they can be so different as to be openly derided, yet no Clan could ever really do anything to harm us.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 31 March 2014, 20:42:03
I think we are all thinking external relations with our answers so far. But what about regarding internal relations, as for example among the castes or with conquered populations?

Clan Sea Fox has in the past allowed their castes to vote. In fact, the name change to Diamond Shark was won by the laborer caste. Clan Sea Foxes two original Khans, David Kalasa, a genuinely good person and Karen Nagasawa, an idealist who stressed the idea that the clan was one organism. That each caste was important to the success of the clan.

Also the lower castes have a form of representation, since warriors can step down to be in those castes.

Shark-Foxes pretend to care for as long as it takes to make the sale.


Is this just your feeling on the idea of clan sea fox cooperation? Are there any examples we can discuss?

I believe the Shark-Foxes are very good at pretending to be compassionate... but really it's about ingratiating themselves with potential marks/customers.

But that's just my cynical Raven opinion ;)

Do you think this opinion has to do with your values as a snow raven? Also if you are faking compassion can you truly fake it without becoming it? Could it be a case of fake it until you make it?

I understand you aren't soliciting my opinion here but I don't get a strong sense of compassion from Clan Sea Fox. I see their overall stance as the forward-facing aspect of opportunism.

Would you be willing to elaborate or discuss examples? If you are not steeped in shark fox lore that is ok to. I would just like to continue the discussion.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 31 March 2014, 20:46:02
I will say this about the subject. While I see Clan Sea Fox as being a compassionate faction, There are no examples I can think of where the Sea Foxes have been charatable.

We are exceptionally willing to help, but that help does always seem to have a price tag.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Manchu on 01 April 2014, 08:58:28
I think their DA expansion is a good example. They're "here to help" but it's actually what you might call soft conquest.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 01 April 2014, 20:21:36
The number one principles of the Sea Foxes is "what's in it for me"

(The number two is "******* love Clantech")
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Mordegald on 06 April 2014, 14:22:27
Would this be the place to seek advice on a Diamond Shark/Sea Fox game force? So far I've got one Star that I picked up ages ago, and I'm wondering if anyone has any advice on where to go from there. The Star I've got consists of:

-Piranha
-Solitaire
-Jenner IIC (not strictly sharky I know, I just like Jenners)
-Huntsman (command 'mech)
-Rifleman IIC

The original idea was that the group was a stop-gap arrangement made up of Tukayyid survivors, but the timeline has moved a good deal past that since I got the models. So at this point I'm just looking at a heavier Star of vaguely-sharky/foxy 'mechs. Beyond maybe a Warhammer IIC for the command 'mech, I've got nothing. Any recommendations?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 06 April 2014, 15:59:18
Are you looking at playing during the most recent 3145 era? In that case, you should check out the...

-Koshi (Standard)
-Tiburon
-Stalking Spider II
-Black Hawk (Standard)
-Jade Hawk
-Mad Cat mk. IV
-Vulture mk. IV

All from the TRO3145: Mercenaries. Those are new machines that the Foxes produce (except for the Jade Hawk, but since they got their hands on the plans and supply a lot of the parts for it...chances are they have 'em in good quantities).

Then there's the classic stuff that got new variants in RS:NTNU (like the Mad Ct Mk. II, Warhammer IIC, Mad Cat III, Dasher II and Crimson Hawk), a good smattering of classic Omnis per the FM:3145 RATs (like the Hellion, Grendel, Cauldron Born, etc.) and a good number of newer/omni IS designs that they sell (such as the Cadaver, Avalanche, Sunder, etc.)

So yeah, right now as a Fox, you've got a bunch of flexibility. Another thing to keep in mind is all of our military forces attached to our Aimags are A-ranked, so they've got top-notch stuff. It's only our garrison forces for our trading planets that field some of the older, second-line 'Mechs.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 06 April 2014, 16:02:29
Mad cat mk ii
Pheonix hawk iic
Mad cat iii
Nova
Blackhawk (different mech)
Vulture iv
Savage wolf
Tiburon
Grendel
Sagitaire
Bloodsomethingorother
Griffin iic
Warhammer iic
Rifleman iic
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 06 April 2014, 16:04:34
Bloodsomethingorother

Yep, that's pretty much how I feel about the Crimson Hawk  ;D
At least, I hope you're talking about it. >_>

Can you believe I've never even thought about fielding one before? I gotta change that...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 06 April 2014, 16:14:56
Yeah that one!  ;D

Same here. If there is something I could say about the rednamedthing its that it definitely exists... and thats something!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Mordegald on 06 April 2014, 17:33:12
Thanks! Some of those look really nice. The Sagittaire's a nice surprise; I've always liked the look of it, but for some reason I thought it was particular to the FedSuns. Think I've got some ideas for how to proceed now.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 06 April 2014, 17:47:06
And may the Sharkfoxes scare your players worse than any of those cuddly warm-blooded Clans.   ;) 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 06 April 2014, 22:44:02
Thanks! Some of those look really nice. The Sagittaire's a nice surprise; I've always liked the look of it, but for some reason I thought it was particular to the FedSuns. Think I've got some ideas for how to proceed now.

Hrm...I think that might have been a typo for the Solitaire, since I'm not seeing it on the MUL or any of the RATs.

However, this is probably the best era to be playing as the Sea Foxes. Since we're trading with literally everyone in the IS at this point, we can justify fielding nearly anything through trade. A quick look through FM:3145 RATs gives us access to usually faction-unique designs like the Men Shen, Wight, Karhu and Deimos, so I think the Sagittaire would be a-ok.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Mordegald on 07 April 2014, 01:53:17
Aw, no official gun-encrusted triangle of doom? Ah well, I suppose being a merchant-heavy Clan has its advantages. Truth be told though, if I'm going to steal an IS 'mech, I'd sooner go for a Berserker. I know melee combat's frowned upon, but hey, nobody gives the Ghost Bears guff for putting claws on their 'mechs.

And more to the point, nobody expects a Clan pilot to challenge them to a 'mech-scale briefcase fight.

One last question; I've toyed with adding battle armor, but there doesn't seem to be a signature Shark Fox design. There's the Undine, but it seems like it was never really fielded after it was won. And I've heard it's a bit...situational. Any pointers there?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 07 April 2014, 13:32:20
I find the Undine (Upgrade) to actually not be that bad. It's one of a very few number of Clan designs to use LRMs (only itself and the Gnome have 'em), and it has the mobility of an Elemental and is still able to swarm. All in all, a pretty flexible design.

Unfortunately, our biggest seller kinda...sucks, IMO. We produce the Clan Medium and all of its variants as our main BA export, but it's terrible. I hate it. It's lackluster in every way. Thankfully, we also locally produce the Elemental for our own consumption (and we didn't export them as of 3079) which means that we still consider it to be a pretty darn good BA.

Otherwise it looks like we heavily rely on trade for our BA. Comparing RATs from FM:3085 and FM:3145 shows a huge diversification of models, with stuff coming from every single IS Clan. I'd field Elementals, with maybe a few Clan Medium (ugh..) and then whatever else I wanted, maybe based on which Khanate I'm playing as.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 07 April 2014, 16:06:40
Clan Sea Fox seems to rely most on the standard elemental armor. I guess if it aint broke dont fix it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 08 April 2014, 13:03:40
The one you want, and I think the Foxes might make it, is the "Rache" variant of the Clan Medium BA. It ups the armor 10 points, has a pair of OS SRM3s, a MG, and still jumps 4.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 08 April 2014, 13:11:18
Sadly a Wolf design. :(
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 08 April 2014, 15:12:07
Sadly a Wolf design. :(

doesn't mean the Shark/Foxes don't make it or have bought/trialed for it by 31xx :)

I'll have to look through it, but the Rache is a beast and IIRC cheaper in BV than the standard Elemental
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 08 April 2014, 15:58:26
not represented enough to make it into our Rats. But I'd like to think you are right Sea Fox Coyote Shark
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 08 April 2014, 19:41:20
The one you want, and I think the Foxes might make it, is the "Rache" variant of the Clan Medium BA. It ups the armor 10 points, has a pair of OS SRM3s, a MG, and still jumps 4.

I did *not* know that the Rache had 10 points of armor, I was going off of Megamek where it mistakenly had 9...that makes it a lot more worthwhile. It's like a slightly different flavor of Elemental now, very nice.

Here's to hoping that we do actually produce the thing. The MUL lists it as Clan General, so that's a good start!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 08 April 2014, 19:59:40
In 3145 it may be extinct. It was produced in old wolf facilities. They have moved and switched their battle armor since then.

Then again I think it is a refit. So perhaps we could do the same refit.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 14 April 2014, 19:35:53
At one time the Clan Medium was manufactured in three factories and sold to the Ghost Bears and Crusader Wolves.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Ferrosol on 22 May 2014, 12:35:27
So Diamond Sharks are good at selling things... I'm looking to play a Diamond Shark cluster in my next game but none of them really stand out for me. So can you guys sell me on an interesting cluster.  The game is about 3067ish just in time for the Jihad/reavings to kick off if that helps
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 22 May 2014, 14:02:47
Are you looking to play in the Inner Sphere or in the Homeworlds?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Ferrosol on 22 May 2014, 15:22:57
Are you looking to play in the Inner Sphere or in the Homeworlds?

Mainly IS but the homeworlds would not be totally out of the question.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 22 May 2014, 15:53:55
Well by mid-Jihad, when the book Masters and Minions was produced...Alpha, Beta and Gamma Galaxies had been sighted in the Inner Sphere. The rest hadn't been seen in a while....meaning they were in the Homeworlds or out in the deep periphery somewhere.

Mid-Jihad, the Sharks gained an enclave on Tukayyid. It was kinda a big deal and that was done by Beta Galaxy's Pearl Skate and the warship Nagasawa.

That Cluster kinda stands out for that reason.

Unfortunately when it comes to the Sharks, they enter the Jihad/WoR era and things get vague for them. We actually know more about their battles in the Homeworlds via the book Wars of Reaving, than we do about their actions in the Inner Sphere, in which they primarily just fight Trials for resources and relatively small enclaves on various worlds. As well as probably securing what they can in the deep periphery.

By FM: 3085 things haven't changed much. Alpha has concentrated on Twycross and its lead Cluster hasn't seen action in 15 years. Beta becomes something of a garrison force on Tukayyid. Gamma was present for the Bloody Tricentennial but walked into a deadly nuke trap. Several other Galaxies do re-emerge but we only get bits and pieces about their condition.

You can potentially use this vagueness to your advantage. Its obvious that the Sharks are trading across the Inner Sphere, as well as attacking targets of opportunity and engaging in small Trials. So you could set up a game that has that Cluster roving the Inner Sphere, engaging in slightly non-canon battles and Trials that might go somewhat unnoticed in the big picture amid the Jihad.

So yeah, if I was going to play a Diamond Shark oriented game in that time period. I'd probably either focus on the Homeworlds, where there is just so much going on. Or I'd probably go with Beta Galaxy's Pearl Skate. A full Cluster which also includes the minor Shark character Jasmine referenced in FM: WC.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 22 May 2014, 16:26:54
Units stationed in the Clan Homeworlds in 3067 but were able to make it to the Inner Sphere:
Alpha Galaxy's 27th Cruiser Cluster
Lambda Spina's Sapphire Skate and the 11th Strike Cluster
Sigma Galaxy's Moonstone Skate and the 23rd Strike Cluster
Zeta Galaxy's 51st Strike Cluster

Units that were in interesting fights (may or may not have survived the Jihad):
Alpha Galaxy's 39th Strike Cluster - first Diamond Shark to encounter Society forces - last stand scenario
Omega Galaxy's Coral Skate and the 57th Combine Assault Cluster - in retaliation for the Draconis Combine's massacre of Clan Diamond Shark citizens on Nykvarn in 3075, they nearly destroyed the 12th and 22nd Dieron Regulars
Zeta Galaxy's 27th Combined Strike and 44th Cruiser Clusters were added to the Coyote's Touman via pre-arranged negotiations/trials in 3070
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 22 May 2014, 20:14:31
I don't have WoR on my but their was the cluster that defended Vinton in the home worlds alongside the newly created Vinton Defense Clusters. Nice Reaving campaign that ended in Merchant Factor Lorenzo's awesome tour of the galaxy to get back
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 23 May 2014, 10:08:32
As a Clan Diamond Shark / Clan Sea Fox player I would tell you that the action for the faction does not happen on a grand scale usually.

If you are looking for a good beat em' up campaign then your best bet is the Steel Vipers versus the Diamond Sharks during their Wars of Reavings push. They manage to hold out against, then reverse the Steel Vipers push until they unleash their Leviathan II on the CDS fleet and the Diamond Sharks decide its time to get.

You can also run a 'Trials of Possession' style campaign where you have to defend or engage in various trials in the homeworlds.

Other than that, until they release the 'Operation Revival' information your only other source of good Clan Diamond Shark fights is operation Klondike.

Besides that they generally only fight exclusively in trials. You can play Tukayyid but as a rabid fan myself there is only one scenario that I am interested in when it comes to that.

Clan Sea Fox is the same. They have a successful engagement against Clan Wolf and a small civil war that would be interesting to play on the large scale. But for the most part they do not engage in large scale operations.

My recommendation is this: Post 3100 play as a Clan Sea Fox Warrior Trader. You have a fair degree of autonomy and a very small unit that just goes from world to world in proximity of its own Aimag and does deals and probably occasionally gets in scraps.

Pre-3100 I'd recommend those detachments of Diamond Shark Warrior Merchants who accompanied Merchants into the Inner Sphere while they were trying to make deals secretly. More of a Clan Diamond Shark black ops campaign.

Just remember the Shark Fox hallmarks. Be honorable. Be Clever.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Foxx Ital on 23 May 2014, 13:08:15
Just remember the Shark Fox hallmarks. Be Profitable. Be Clever.
Fixed that for ya  ;)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Bongfu on 27 June 2014, 16:57:06
Diamond Shark at heart here looking to build my first star.

Hankyu  Prime   
Grendel Prime    B
Black Hawk Prime       
Ryoken  A   
Fenris Prime

How does that look for something that is post-invasion but pre-Jihad?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 27 June 2014, 22:36:23
I suppose that this question actually hinges upon whether or not there are Shark Foxes besides Rebs and myself. I know that sometimes I see Bergie. Wellspring seems to be well and truly gone, which is a shame.

Hey, guys, I just got back from our holdings in the Chainelane isles. Oh, what's that? You've been there? Well, I've been in other holdings in the Chainelane Isles. Amazing that we missed one another. Definitely haven't been at any secret "off balance sheet asset" of a base somewhere. No way.

What are the Sea Fox opinions about Compassion?

I think it varies within the clan. I feel like there are three themes that run through Shark Fox thinking, with different people emphasizing different themes.

There's the Karen Nagasawa idealistic thread; she was a true believer and I think sometimes in our zeal we forget that the sharks really are true believers, or at least many are at least to some extent. They've had many opportunities to abandon the Clan Way and haven't. It also gives them the ideological confidence to toy with heresy, as they often do. That's the theme that inspires the Sea Fox totem: honor your opponent. In combat or commerce.

Then there's the David Kalasa thread, who at least from what I've read seems like a genuinely nice guy who helps people out when he gets a chance. Their philosophy would be best described as "doing well by doing good"-- and make no mistake, trade helps both partners, builds relationships, bridges differences. Their first priority is their fellow Sea Foxes, of course, but outsiders get a taste of their compassion, too.

Finally, you have the pragmatic Angus Labov theme. Survival and profit, roughly prioritized in that order. A good way to put it is the "Venetians first, Christians second" attitude of medieval Venice. These are the ones who angle for every possible advantage: economic, social, military, political, genetic, intelligence-gathering. It's the Sea Foxes who watched as the three other clans "allied" w/ them in KLONDIKE left them to die, the ones who watched what happened to the Not-Named.

These aren't factions, or even contradictory. They infuse every action that the clan takes. Where there's conflict between threads, they look for ways to satisfy both impulses. But they try to avoid situations where those conflicts happen in the first place. That takes good intelligence-gathering and good planning, something the Foxes have always excelled at.

Say there's a famine on New Dishan. Compassion suggests that the Foxes help. Pragmatism notices that the world has resources the Foxes could use, and Idealism agrees that framing it as trade rather than hand-outs would honor the people of New Dishan. So a CargoShip loaded with food is dispatched with heavy escort, offering to trade for the resource rights. The local warlord tries to seize the food by force. Idealism demands that the escort stomp the warlord flat, and compassion might have a say depending on how bad the warlord is. So they probably will, but what comes next? That depends on pragmatism.

What doesn't happen is dogmatic adherence to Clan traditions, or self-destructive altruism, or ruthless profiteering. If the Shark Foxes do their job, the inhabitants come out alive and grateful, the Foxes make a tidy profit, and the local government is friendly and available for future business. If they decide poorly, they're seen as unclan-like exploitive profiteers. In which case they collect their pay, pack their things, and leave. They're not terribly worried about how others see them except as pure expediency. But I think they do try to do good so they can think well of themselves.

Much like the Star Adders and Cloud Cobras (and to some extent the pre-Vlad Wolves), they have their convictions, but they're not going to be stupid about it. They try to think a few steps ahead rather than driving everything down to an algorithm, slogan, or reflex.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 27 June 2014, 23:11:31
Would this be the place to seek advice on a Diamond Shark/Sea Fox game force?

The original idea was that the group was a stop-gap arrangement made up of Tukayyid survivors, but the timeline has moved a good deal past that since I got the models. So at this point I'm just looking at a heavier Star of vaguely-sharky/foxy 'mechs. Beyond maybe a Warhammer IIC for the command 'mech, I've got nothing. Any recommendations?

Others have suggested Mechs, so I'll let those stand. As for gaming choices, here's what I see as your options:

Post-Tukkayid, the Sharks saw a lot of action-- all in the Homeworlds. With the touman in ruins but lots of territory to defend, the other clans came in. This fighting intensified as other clans left the homeworlds and eventually escalated into the Wars of Possession.

In that scenario, the best gaming option is a BT campaign. Any and all other clans are good aggressors, and you can run a cluster in a Spina Galaxy. Spinas are second-line formations with some second line mechs but also some frontlne omnimech clusters. They are primarily defensive but can also move opportunistically onto the attack. This gives you license to basically use whatever mechs you want in a variety of scenarios, against a variety of opponents. The stakes would be high, but it's still strictly business, and so rather gentlemanly.

The same applies to the Jihad and Wars of Reaving, but the formations are bigger and the fighting more desperate. So Alpha Strike might also work depending on the situation. Whether you're set in the IS or homeworlds, the gloves come off and eye-gouges and groin punches are de rigeur.

After the Jihad/WoR and into the Dark Ages, you might want to consider an RPG campaign, punctuated with occasional BattleTech games. As a warrior-trader, you have license to travel the inner sphere. Lots of scenarios are possible and just about anyone is a possible opponent. Essentially, you've created a mercs campaign-- except that you're hiring yourself, and combat costs are just overhead to be covered by your profits. To me, that screams RPG, and makes for a fun game.

In any era, Shark Foxes also make good villains for your campaign. From the Clan perspective, they're sneaky rules-lawyering evil Capitalists. You can make them either good or terrible in a fight, depending on the tone of the campaign, but if they are good in combat it should come as a surprise (the Sharks do very well in battle but have a reputation as mediocre-- a reputation they kind of cultivate IMO). Play up their bidding practices, demands for collateral on Trials of Possession, and pacifistic cowardice. If your players are IS, then a Sharkfox antagonist should be their worst nightmare: a Clanner who thinks and behaves like a Great House liason officer. Someone who doesn't fall for their zellbrigen tricks and chuckles knowingly at their taunts. He's the equivalent of Shadowrun's Mr. Johnson. Run them the same way you would have run a ComStar villain in 3025.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 27 June 2014, 23:20:03
Welcome back Wellspring and that was an inspiring and illuminating response to my question.

At the end of the day im a nagasawa and a kalasa who aspires to be a labov. I think thats what, other than the totem, makes Clan Sea Fox my clan...

But you have always championed that labov line of thinking and its an important frame of reference.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 28 June 2014, 08:32:01
I think it's important to remember, there are no pure "good" factions in battletech. Some factions are more good than others, and some factions really are Pure Evil (tm) but there's no one good guy. We have to resist the urge to give our own favorite faction a makeover.

With that said, you can do  a lot of good in the world by being sensible, following your self-interest, and no going out of your way to be actively mean. That the space where the Shark Foxes live. No grand schemes of reform, no ideologies of pure light. See somebody who's hungry? Can we work out a way to profit by helping them? There's no shortage of suffering in the Inner Sphere; we can afford to pick and choose.

Because the reality is, Pure Evil doesn't pay. Stefan Amaris's reign lasted 13 years, and he ultimately failed to accomplish any of his objectives. Myndo Waterly failed. The Word of Blake tried the same thing writ evil, and also failed. Katherine Steiner-Davion destroyed her father's empire so she could own a piece of the ruins-- ultimately she too failed. I could almost picture a Diamond Shark as Number Two in Austin Powers, when he says, "You're trying to take over the world, but There. Is. No. World. There's only corporations."

That's the diamond shark / sea fox way, IMO. They're happy to do something nice (if it can somehow be made to benefit them). Or, they ruthlessly pursue their long-term self interest (realizing that Evil is bad for business while a good reputation can keep the targeting reticule off you). And it's not clear which way of thinking is driving their actions, even to them.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Ransom Clarke on 29 June 2014, 05:49:06
I think it's important to remember, there are no pure "good" factions in battletech. Some factions are more good than others, and some factions really are Pure Evil (tm) but there's no one good guy. We have to resist the urge to give our own favorite faction a makeover.

With that said, you can do  a lot of good in the world by being sensible, following your self-interest, and no going out of your way to be actively mean. That the space where the Shark Foxes live. No grand schemes of reform, no ideologies of pure light. See somebody who's hungry? Can we work out a way to profit by helping them? There's no shortage of suffering in the Inner Sphere; we can afford to pick and choose.

Because the reality is, Pure Evil doesn't pay. Stefan Amaris's reign lasted 13 years, and he ultimately failed to accomplish any of his objectives. Myndo Waterly failed. The Word of Blake tried the same thing writ evil, and also failed. Katherine Steiner-Davion destroyed her father's empire so she could own a piece of the ruins-- ultimately she too failed. I could almost picture a Diamond Shark as Number Two in Austin Powers, when he says, "You're trying to take over the world, but There. Is. No. World. There's only corporations."

That's the diamond shark / sea fox way, IMO. They're happy to do something nice (if it can somehow be made to benefit them). Or, they ruthlessly pursue their long-term self interest (realizing that Evil is bad for business while a good reputation can keep the targeting reticule off you). And it's not clear which way of thinking is driving their actions, even to them.

That is an amazing post and yes that is what i like about clan diamond shark / sea fox. They believe in self preservation more then any other clan and avoid pitfalls that got other clans like Clan Steel Viper in trouble
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: SteveRestless on 29 June 2014, 16:37:22
At a glance, I keep mistaking Wellspring and Kitsune for each other when I see them post, due to their very similar avatars.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 29 June 2014, 18:39:04
At a glance, I keep mistaking Wellspring and Kitsune for each other when I see them post, due to their very similar avatars.

Lol I keep meaning to change my avatar slightly.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 29 June 2014, 19:18:43
We used to use the exact same avatar. But then I colored the injured sea fox logo myself. Hard to change from one you have built yourself.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 29 June 2014, 19:49:00
My slightly-AU unit is Tau Galaxy (the Silver Foxes). That includes a covert ops unit quietly seconded to the Watch called the Dark Sharks. Either ought to inspire a logo change for me... should coolness win out over procrastination.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Fletch on 29 June 2014, 21:57:21
At a glance, I keep mistaking Wellspring and Kitsune for each other when I see them post, due to their very similar avatars.

Kitsune looks like he had a tougher weekend
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 29 June 2014, 22:01:14
They don't call it a dark age for nothin'.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 29 June 2014, 22:50:04
It has been a good day today - you did not have to use your Tomahawk A today.  Trothkin ;D

All because you persevere and continue to pimp the most noble of Clan insignia.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Weirdo on 06 August 2014, 10:28:33
Greetings!

...so I've decided to work up a Clan Protectorate star to join the rest of my FWL stuff. Not much of my spare Clan stuff laying around is very Nova Cat-themed, so I've decided to go for a second-line Delta Aimag star. What information is out there about Delta, such as tactical preferences, color scheme, and whatnot? All I really remember is that the Cluster they've got in the Protectorate really lurves them some LRM goodness, which certainly explains why they're welcome in the FWL.

What I'm looking at for my Star:
Mad Cat Mk II-E
Nova Cat
Ha Otoko (planning to kitbash it into a -3)
Piranha
2 Ares tanks

Thanks for any information or insight you might have!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 06 August 2014, 23:56:13
I think that psycho was working on some delta a image stuff.

Omicron is the unit that likes to drop lrm's on people. It's got a strange history because it was technically supposed to be the spirit cat unit from the dark ages.

Spina as a whole doesn't have a lot of information on them other than that they are in tight with the FWL.

But as far as clan sea fox goes they have two combat modes. Sea Fox mode where they are pragmatic and tricky and Diamond Shark mode where they just blitz things with overwhelming force.

That star is very spirit cat/Sea foxy.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Weirdo on 07 August 2014, 00:47:55
Given all the fun things you can do with LRMs, it's pretty easy to switch from pragmatic and tricky to overwhelming force with a simple toggle of a switch.

Should be especially fun, given that while I certainly plan to keep my options open, I want to kitbash the Nova Cat into a B model. 8)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 07 August 2014, 09:28:23
What Khanate?  Spina?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Weirdo on 07 August 2014, 09:57:15
I think so.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Klat on 07 August 2014, 11:31:16
Spina is correct. I've been trying to no avail to find something.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 07 August 2014, 12:35:20
Find what Klat?  The scheme?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Klat on 07 August 2014, 12:48:28
Find what Klat?  The scheme?

I was concentrating on paint scheme. Is it posted somewhere and I missed it? I was looking for Weirdo as he mentioned it up thread.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 07 August 2014, 17:51:06
those Skate Khanate Cizins Psycho posted are gorgeous
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 07 August 2014, 19:09:34
I was concentrating on paint scheme. Is it posted somewhere and I missed it? I was looking for Weirdo as he mentioned it up thread.

We have schemes for all five but for some reason the Foxes don't show up on the unrepresented units list.  I'm not sure if I can post the others that haven't been shown yet or not to be honest.  I'll ask and see
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 24 August 2014, 15:23:50
So, in the last month I got copies of "A Time of War" and the "A Time of War Companion," and the AToW Companion has something that interested me.  Basically, it's a bunch of optional rule expansions to help insert more flavor into your RPG (if you're not familiar with the book).  One of the things it talks about is optional rank rules for each major faction.  For the Clans, it basically talks about which Clans have less respect for Freeborns (which essentially counts as a rank penalty for those Clans), preferred field of service (essentially, what types of warriors have more weight behind their voice, which translates to a rank bonus), and other miscellaneous things.

So, naturally, most of the Clans, the Preferred Service Field is "Mechwarrior."

The Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes, however, is NOT.  Their Preferred Field Service is apparently Aerospace.  This kinda surprised me, as when I think of the AEROSPACE Clans, I usually think of the Cobras or the Ravens.  And I reread FM: Warden Clans recently, and I don't recall the Diamond Shark section saying anything particular about the Aerospace Forces (while it did say that they had some very well respected Elemental Forces).

On the other hand, David Kalasa was either a Naval Guy or an Aerojock, can never bloody remember which.

So, basically, the question I have, are the Sharkfox Aerojocks actually well respected among all the Clans, is this a result of David Kalasa being a flying sorta guy, or is this not a HISTORICAL thing, but rather a more recent thing (with the changing nature of the Sharkfoxes into the Khanate System)?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 24 August 2014, 16:03:25
You are looking at the wrong leader, look to Karen Nagasawa, she was a pilot and commanded the Sea Foxes air units. In Operation Klondike she was "Sky Fox One". Kalasa was a mechwarrior. Without a doubt Nagasawa has historically been one of the Clan's most prestigious Bloodlines, not unlike Kardaan for the Cobras.

The Diamond Sharks, in the Jihad and pre-Jihad eras are noted for having "Combined Assault" Clusters, which tend to make heavy use of aerospace, typically more than the 1 Trinary that is the norm for an average Clan Cluster. They also have second-line "Air Assault" Clusters which are exactly what they sound like. So they have some units with notable aero bias in the touman.

That said, I'm kinda surprised by that too. I'd have thought mechwarrior or even Elemental, because of how successful that Clan has been at producing quality Elementals.

But the Diamond Sharks have always had that nomadic quality about them, even prior to the Dark Age, they traveled around a lot as traders. I suspect the aero jocks ride shotgun for the merchants a lot, not just with the Clusters but in independent aero units onboard dropships like the Titan class. Also I seem to recall that the Sharks occasionally indulged in raiding space assets in the Homeworlds, so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised.

EDIT: The Sharks also take a liberal view of Zell, which means they employ air power more commonly in ground battles to bomb and strafe than some Clans. That could be another factor.

I wouldn't take all this to mean that the Sharks are an "Aero Clan". Rather, their air arm has greater impact and importance, both in politics and on the battlefield, compared to some Clans that bid away their aero stars first.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 24 August 2014, 16:23:46
You are looking at the wrong leader, look to Karen Nagasawa, she was a pilot and commanded the Sea Foxes air units. In Operation Klondike she was "Sky Fox One". Kalasa was a mechwarrior. Without a doubt Nagasawa has historically been one of the Clan's most prestigious Bloodlines, not unlike Kardaan for the Cobras.

The Diamond Sharks, in the Jihad and pre-Jihad eras are noted for having "Combined Arms" Clusters, which tend to make heavy use of aerospace, typically more than the 1 Trinary that is the norm for an average Clan Cluster. They also have second-line "Air Assault" Clusters which are exactly what they sound like. So they have some units with notable aero bias in the touman.

That said, I'm kinda surprised by that too. I'd have thought mechwarrior or even Elemental, because of how successful that Clan has been at producing quality Elementals.

But the Diamond Sharks have always had that nomadic quality about them, even prior to the Dark Age, they traveled around a lot as traders. I suspect the aero jocks ride shotgun for the merchants a lot, not just with the Clusters but in independent aero units onboard dropships like the Titan class. Also I seem to recall that the Sharks occasionally indulged in raiding space assets in the Homeworlds, so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised.

EDIT: The Sharks also take a liberal view of Zell, which means they employ air power more commonly in ground battles to bomb and strafe than some Clans. That could be another factor.

I wouldn't take all this to mean that the Sharks are an "Aero Clan". Rather, their air arm has greater impact and importance, both in politics and on the battlefield, compared to some Clans that bid away their aero stars first.

You sure about Kalasa?  I could've sworn...well, I've never read Klondike and I don't have FM Wardens in front of me, and Nagasawa testing into aerojock DOES sound familiar.

MOST of the Clans have Mechwarrior listed as their preferred service.  The other two that have Aero listed are (not surprisingly) Cobras and Ravens, with the Ravens getting an additional bonus if the person is Aero-NAVAL.  So it was kinda shocking to see the Sharks/Foxes having them listed.  But you are right in that they always had the nomadic feel anyway, and it makes sense that a lot of Aerospace Fighters would support the merchant fleet.

(The only thing that was more shocking to me was the fact that Infantry is NOT the Preferred Field of Service for the Horses; they have no preferred field.  But they do give a bonus if you're the Elemental Phenotype, so it kinda amounts to the same thing.)

EDIT:  Just looked up in FM: Warden Clans.  Yeah, Nagasawa I'm thinking of.  Don't know why I thought it was Kalasa.  Maybe I was thinking of the Kardaans over in Cloud Cobra.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 24 August 2014, 16:35:25
Look up David Kalasa on sarna.net. He was a mechwarrior and commanded the Sea Foxes ground forces, he died early in Klondike when the Coyotes pulled out of the fight because they didn't like the way the Clans were fighting, which made the Foxes very angry due to the ensuing losses they took. Karen Nagasawa took over and according to Op. Klondike she would overshadow Kalasa in terms of shaping the Clan through Klondike and afterward.

The Cobras and Ravens obviously are not a surprise, but yeah the Sharks surprise me a little. But a quick glance through FM: WC and I noted a number of aerospace pilot Galaxy Commanders and Star Colonels. In some Clans that's extremely rare but apparently not in the Sharks.

Even in the 3050s and 3060s the Sharks were also making heavy use of their fleet, going as far as to pair Clusters up with certain warships permanently, that would also put more power in the hands of the pilots, even those who have gone up to command warships/jumpships/dropships.

So there's an argument to be made there. But part of me can't help but wonder if the choice was made as much for variety's sake as anything. As in an Editor looked at it and decided to change "mechwarrior" to "Aerospace" for sake of variety.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 24 August 2014, 16:50:06
Look up David Kalasa on sarna.net. He was a mechwarrior and commanded the Sea Foxes ground forces, he died early in Klondike when the Coyotes pulled out of the fight because they didn't like the way the Clans were fighting, which made the Foxes very angry due to the ensuing losses they took. Karen Nagasawa took over and according to Op. Klondike she would overshadow Kalasa in terms of shaping the Clan through Klondike and afterward.

The Cobras and Ravens obviously are not a surprise, but yeah the Sharks surprise me a little. But a quick glance through FM: WC and I noted a number of aerospace pilot Galaxy Commanders and Star Colonels. In some Clans that's extremely rare but apparently not in the Sharks.

Even in the 3050s and 3060s the Sharks were also making heavy use of their fleet, going as far as to pair Clusters up with certain warships permanently, that would also put more power in the hands of the pilots, even those who have gone up to command warships/jumpships/dropships.

So there's an argument to be made there. But part of me can't help but wonder if the choice was made as much for variety's sake as anything. As in an Editor looked at it and decided to change "mechwarrior" to "Aerospace" for sake of variety.

If anything, there's a shortage of "Infantry" on there; the Bears are the only one listed with that as their preferred field (again, really surprised that the Horses didn't get that as well).

I have a feeling I might be getting Operation Klondike for my birthday, so I'm looking forward to reading up on the early days of my favorite Clans.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 24 August 2014, 16:55:12
Wait...the Bears got "Infantry" and the Horses got "Elemental"? That seems strange, at the very least I'd imagine Elemental for both, or maybe the use of the term Infantry was a typo. Potential errata?

Operation Klondike is a good book, arguably a must-read for any Clan fan with an appetite for more info about the Clans. It adds a level of context to early Clan history that is very helpful in understanding each individual Clan and also some of the Founder's decisions and choices. Plus the profiles on the Khans are cool, and there are some really great bits of info about other individuals among Kerensky's 800.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 24 August 2014, 19:10:24
Wait...the Bears got "Infantry" and the Horses got "Elemental"? That seems strange, at the very least I'd imagine Elemental for both, or maybe the use of the term Infantry was a typo. Potential errata?

Operation Klondike is a good book, arguably a must-read for any Clan fan with an appetite for more info about the Clans. It adds a level of context to early Clan history that is very helpful in understanding each individual Clan and also some of the Founder's decisions and choices. Plus the profiles on the Khans are cool, and there are some really great bits of info about other individuals among Kerensky's 800.

Totally agree about this. It also helps contextualize the Bears v Adders thing, tells us useful information about the Burrocks, etc etc etc.

Interesting fun tidbit about Karen Nagasawa: she was originally a Blood Spirit. The Sea Foxes, Spirits, and Nagasawa herself lobbied the Founder to change her assignment. Since all 800 original Clan members are listed in H:OK, with 40 per clan, it's not clear if the transfer was a trade, or if substitutions were made or what.

Since the Diamond Shark/Sea Fox future was already known, it's possible that making ASF their favored branch of service was just anticipating the post-WoR clan change? I don't know, I don't have ATOW. Certainly they had wide-ranging possessions to defend. They struck me as percentagers: grabbing the most productive sliver of a planet and leaving the rest to another clan. They also have a massive merchant fleet to defend; those elementals might not just be serving ground duty.

Another way to look at it is this: the Ghost Bears have nearly unlimited funds, so they loaded up on heavy Mechs and elementals, but still have a good air force. The Diamond Sharks have excellent resources as well, and so whereas the Cobras and Ravens have to adapt to limited ground forces, the Sharks could have superb air support without having to use it to pinch-hit in what really should be ground duties.

Finally, there's this. The Diamond Sharks under-stated the size of their Touman to other clans, at least in the Revival and Jihad eras-- the only clan to do so (the Blood Spirits report precisely correct figures, while all other clans puff up their numbers a bit). But even the official listings only list the Galaxies-- ground forces plus WarShips. Depending on the Clan, an ASF wing attached to a WarShip might be part of the galaxy, or it might be considered a naval formation attached to the WarShip and therefore not count in the ground force counts in the Field Manual. The same goes for marines-- except that to my knowledge marines are never counted as part of any clan's galaxies. You can hide quite a few fighters and elementals from the official force estimates that way.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 24 August 2014, 19:38:31
Wait...the Bears got "Infantry" and the Horses got "Elemental"? That seems strange, at the very least I'd imagine Elemental for both, or maybe the use of the term Infantry was a typo. Potential errata?

Operation Klondike is a good book, arguably a must-read for any Clan fan with an appetite for more info about the Clans. It adds a level of context to early Clan history that is very helpful in understanding each individual Clan and also some of the Founder's decisions and choices. Plus the profiles on the Khans are cool, and there are some really great bits of info about other individuals among Kerensky's 800.

Basically, the way the Rank table is set up, each Clan gets three columns:

Freeborn Modifier             Preferred Service Field                                         Notes

+0, -1, -2, or N/A                Mechwarrior, Aerospace, Infantry, None


Basically, the Bears got Infantry in their preferred service field, no notes.  Horses got "None" in their preferred service field, with a note that "Elemental Phenotype gets +1," which is an odd distinction.

Even if I don't get Klondike for my birthday, I'll probably pick up a copy.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 25 August 2014, 21:41:00
Quote

Interesting fun tidbit about Karen Nagasawa: she was originally a Blood Spirit. The Sea Foxes, Spirits, and Nagasawa herself lobbied the Founder to change her assignment. Since all 800 original Clan members are listed in H:OK, with 40 per clan, it's not clear if the transfer was a trade, or if substitutions were made or what.

Where was this information from out of curiosity?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 25 August 2014, 21:56:53
Where was this information from out of curiosity?

I feel like it's mentioned in FM: Warden Clans, but I bet it is elsewhere as well.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 26 August 2014, 03:49:15
David Kalasa was an admirer of her writings and accepted the post of Sea Fox Khan on the condition that Nagasawa be assigned to Clan Sea Fox.

"Clan Blood Spirit at first contested this request, as Nagasawa had been slated for their Clan, but only as a matter of form.  Though Khan Colleen Schmitt of the Blood Spirits appreciated Nagasawa's work, she had noticed certain progressive leanings that troubled her. For Clan Blood Spirit....Nagasawa represented a potential source of conflict.  Ultimately, the Blood Spirits agreed that Nagasawa belonged in the Sea Fox Clan."  (FM:WC, p57)

However it was not important enough to be mentioned in Operation Klondike.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 26 August 2014, 08:49:58
David Kalasa was an admirer of her writings and accepted the post of Sea Fox Khan on the condition that Nagasawa be assigned to Clan Sea Fox.

"Clan Blood Spirit at first contested this request, as Nagasawa had been slated for their Clan, but only as a matter of form.  Though Khan Colleen Schmitt of the Blood Spirits appreciated Nagasawa's work, she had noticed certain progressive leanings that troubled her. For Clan Blood Spirit....Nagasawa represented a potential source of conflict.  Ultimately, the Blood Spirits agreed that Nagasawa belonged in the Sea Fox Clan."  (FM:WC, p57)

However it was not important enough to be mentioned in Operation Klondike.

Yep, that's the passage.

(Huh, really?  That's kinda odd, but okay.)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 08 September 2014, 20:31:46
Do we know if Barbara Sennet was a mechwarrior or a pilot?

I always assumed Mechwarrior, but the aero branch conversation got me thinking. FM: WC notes her unit for its ASFs in its mixed command stars, in addition to the standard ASF complement.

I know Sennet is a mechwarrior name, but we've seen plenty of notable examples among the canon universe's notable personalities.

The art we have of her makes her kinda look like a pilot me.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 09 September 2014, 01:42:26
I'm sure her stats are listed under notable personalities. I'll look it up tomorrow. Midnight launch and early morning tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 09 September 2014, 02:49:30
Barbara Sennet doesn't play a big enough role in the WoR to be listed under notable personages in Wars of Reaving and M&M carefully avoids mentioning her phenotype.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 09 September 2014, 03:41:31
ER3052 has Sennet in front of a 'Mech in her portrait and the RPG rules section says she's a MechWarrior.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArcaneRaven on 29 September 2014, 11:15:33
Can anyone tell me where to find descriptions or even pics of Sea Fox rank insignias? Or do the foxes keep the shark insignias?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 29 September 2014, 16:31:45
I'm not sure if anything came out subsequently, but FM:WC mentions that the changes from fox to shark were minimal. Lacking further information, I'd stay very close to the Diamond Shark insignia and uniforms (which are quite fetching anyway).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 29 September 2014, 20:30:50
So, what do you guys consider to be, like, THE Diamond Shark/Sea Fox Mech?  The one that, without which, they REALLY aren't the Sharkfoxes.  Because y'know, the Falcons aren't really the Falcons without Summoners, and what is a Bear Unit without an Executioner?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 29 September 2014, 20:53:40
Piranha... with the Tiburon  as runner up.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: ArcaneRaven on 30 September 2014, 09:04:29
I'm not sure if anything came out subsequently, but FM:WC mentions that the changes from fox to shark were minimal. Lacking further information, I'd stay very close to the Diamond Shark insignia and uniforms (which are quite fetching anyway).

I like the uniforms, but I think diamonds and sharks as rank insignias for Clan Sea Fox are not really fitting. And the Clan must have some other insignias, since when the Clan was created there were no diamond sharks.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 30 September 2014, 11:14:34
I like the uniforms, but I think diamonds and sharks as rank insignias for Clan Sea Fox are not really fitting. And the Clan must have some other insignias, since when the Clan was created there were no diamond sharks.

Yeah I just meant borrowing the colors and iconography and coming up with something.

So, what do you guys consider to be, like, THE Diamond Shark/Sea Fox Mech?  The one that, without which, they REALLY aren't the Sharkfoxes.  Because y'know, the Falcons aren't really the Falcons without Summoners, and what is a Bear Unit without an Executioner?

Honestly, mechs like the Thresher never really impressed me. There's no real classic sharkfox mech IMO. I do have a secret cackling glee when I see the pirhana, but that's not really an essential in their touman.

Nah, if anything is emblematic of the Diamond Shark / Sea Fox touman, it isn't a particular Mech design, it's the Kerenskies/C-bills/Fox Credits you buy them with. The only design that really jumps out at me isn't a mech, but an aerofighter: the Ammon.

I think part of the problem is that they're not really hung up about adopting someone else's design if it's good-- no case of Not Invented Here Syndrome. And if they come up with something good, they sell the hell out of it to recoup their investment. So nothing uniquely iconic like the Timber Wolf, Mad Dog, Nova Cat, Hellbie etc.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 30 September 2014, 11:30:45
I'd pick the Tiburon. It's one of the few mechs (The only?) they don't sell to outside forces. So if someone spots one, they KNOW the sharkfoxes are out to play.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 30 September 2014, 13:47:41
I'd argue that the Grendel is a pretty iconic classic 'Mech for us. Sure, some of the other Clans used them, but never in the same numbers as the Sharks themselves.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 30 September 2014, 17:07:02
I'd argue that the Grendel is a pretty iconic classic 'Mech for us. Sure, some of the other Clans used them, but never in the same numbers as the Sharks themselves.

You know, I totally forgot about the Grendel. Not exactly iconic, but an excellent mech that I haven't used in a long time and now can't remember why. :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 30 September 2014, 19:15:47
For me its the Thresher, even though they largely sold them off to other Clans.

Typically its been my experience that when a player-made Clan force includes a Thresher, its a kind of shout-out to the Sharks or the force itself is a Clan Diamond Shark force. Otherwise I rarely see them used.

And that isn't a statement about how good or bad the mech is. Just that its the Clan that pops up in my mind when I hear the name. The Piranha comes to mind as well but nobody I know uses it at all, even if they are building a Diamond Shark force.

I'm glad the Sharks/Foxes finally got a real iconic machine in the Tiburon, but for me that's just too new to be iconic as of yet. Mainly because I'm not playing in the new era.

Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 02 October 2014, 05:26:35
I'm glad the Sharks/Foxes finally got a real iconic machine in the Tiburon, but for me that's just too new to be iconic as of yet.

Agree totally w/ this.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 02 October 2014, 10:35:41
So, what do you guys consider to be, like, THE Diamond Shark/Sea Fox Mech?  The one that, without which, they REALLY aren't the Sharkfoxes.  Because y'know, the Falcons aren't really the Falcons without Summoners, and what is a Bear Unit without an Executioner?

Clan Sea Fox is pretty fluid. So pinning them down and saying, "this one machine makes them sharkfoxes" kind of goes against their pragmatism.

I have a special spot for Mad Cat mk II's.

But also one of the things about being in a merchant clan is you sell all your stuff. So other than the Tiburon There isn't a machine that only the shark foxes use.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Diamondshark on 02 October 2014, 10:56:58
For me, their most iconic mechs are the Mad Cat Mk II and the Ha Otoko. They aren't exclusive to them, and I'm not even sure how often they are fielded. But they "feel" the most SharkFox-ish to me when I use them.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 02 October 2014, 14:57:13
For me, their most iconic mechs are the Mad Cat Mk II and the Ha Otoko. They aren't exclusive to them, and I'm not even sure how often they are fielded. But they "feel" the most SharkFox-ish to me when I use them.

That's a fair point. I do tend to think of those mechs as Shark mechs. Even if they were designed with export in mind. Whether they are the faction fielding them or not you know where they came from.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Savage Coyote on 02 October 2014, 22:21:14
Grendel/Tiburon.

Both are fast enough to get into and out of danger that might arise from a deal gone sour.  They are fast enough to grab something and run off with it, and fast enough to quickly and efficiently engage opponents in a timely matter and either press the attack or pull out to conserve resources.

Oh, they also both pack a punch and require finesse to use well.  :D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 03 October 2014, 13:58:11
The very first Grinder I ever played was fairly recently. I ran a Tiburon the whole game without taking damage. My comrade in arms made it through with his Mad cat my IV pretty well.

Clan Sea Foxes Warhammer Iic's seem to be their ubiquitous trooper. But they are also a Mad Dog clan. I think those Vulture mk IV's are going to become famous. Rabid Dog is right. Stars of those mechs tear down most opposition.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 25 November 2014, 20:25:06
Totally random inquiry...

Is it safe to say that an OvKhan is actually a higher rank than a Star Colonel?  (But lower than a SaKhan) They appear to be equivalent ranks on paper, but some assets would require a Cluster formation or two or more to defend.  Places like Tukayyid, or Twycross, or Itabiana

So, I imagine that though the Sea Foxes may emphasize mercantilism in the Dark Age and beyond with the Aimag system, they likely still have such pure military formations for very practical reasons.  The rank of Star Colonel would be indispensable.

And perhaps, during emergencies, a Galaxy Commander or two might be necessary.  SaKhan, on paper, appears to be equivalent, but Aimag and Khanate descriptions seem to indicate much larger commands than even a large galaxy in many cases.  Thus prompting my questions about both OvKhan and SaKhan ranks, really.

I'm just wondering.  Trying to form a picture of the rank-relationships, Foxxing style.  O0
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 26 November 2014, 01:30:00
Petr Kalasa and particularly his rival Clarke in hunters of the deep have star colonel aids working for them.

An Aimag is supposed to be cluster sized.

But if they were all cluster sized then you wouldn't be surprised when they are more than a cluster, would you?

Same clan whose clusters used to have twice as many Trinaries as the other guys.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: marauder648 on 26 November 2014, 04:57:09
Re the Mad Cat II there's two varians that I do have to wonder about, the II Enhanced, I assume this would have moved beyond being an experimental model and would probably be entering more general service now amongst the Sea Foxes.  Their variant as mentioned on Sarna

Quote
Finally, a Clan Sea Fox refit replaces all of the armament with one EMRG "Galaxy" Series Gauss Rifle, one Series 4D-2 Heavy Large Laser, and one Series 6A Heavy Medium Laser and improved jump jets - Improved Blasters Model X-1 - improving the jump capacity by 50%.

I would also assume would become their main heavy trooper Assault, with the II Enhanced filling out the same kind of role usually taken by a Dire Wolf etc on account of its survivability.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 26 November 2014, 13:25:23
Yeah, the OvKhan must definitely be higher ranked. I'd say that they're the equiv. of a senior Star Colonel, with maybe a few even having enough throw weight to be considered Galaxy Commanders. Even if they only have a cluster of troops available to them "on paper", they still control entire aimags. That means a collection of a decent number of dropships, jumpships, a cargoship or two, and probably a decent contingent of aerospace fighters.

Re the Mad Cat II there's two varians that I do have to wonder about, the II Enhanced, I assume this would have moved beyond being an experimental model and would probably be entering more general service now amongst the Sea Foxes.  Their variant as mentioned on Sarna

The II Enhanced has been in full production ever since we first saw it in Prototypes, and is one of the most common Assault Mechs in the collective Clan toumans by 3145. And keep in mind that the refit you're talking about is from the clicky game, and I think it was more/less canonized with the appearance of the Mad Cat II 5.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: marauder648 on 26 November 2014, 14:14:49
Oh blimey, okay I thought because the II-E was due to its experimental nature still a tad rare.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 26 November 2014, 16:00:27
Nope! It's one of the nice pieces of technology that the Sharkfoxes have been selling to all buyers...kinda like the Mad Cat III. Man I love that 'Mech.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: marauder648 on 28 November 2014, 04:40:19
Why do I think that when people face the Sharks they will face a tide of Unseen IIC's as well as MANY flavours of Mad Cat.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 28 November 2014, 10:45:46
I'm re-reading Hunters of the Deep, so my questions are finding answers.  O0 

I think I must have been severely depressed (more so than I realized) when I read it, because my memory from page to page is shot.  But I think I'm enjoying the reading more this time, so maybe there really is a reason for everything. 

Petr Kalasa and particularly his rival Clarke in hunters of the deep have star colonel aids working for them.

An Aimag is supposed to be cluster sized.

But if they were all cluster sized then you wouldn't be surprised when they are more than a cluster, would you?

Same clan whose clusters used to have twice as many Trinaries as the other guys.

Yeah, the OvKhan must definitely be higher ranked. I'd say that they're the equiv. of a senior Star Colonel, with maybe a few even having enough throw weight to be considered Galaxy Commanders. Even if they only have a cluster of troops available to them "on paper", they still control entire aimags. That means a collection of a decent number of dropships, jumpships, a cargoship or two, and probably a decent contingent of aerospace fighters.

It struck me that if a strong enough Aimag with plenty of resources - say, one that has been operating for decades and has lots of semi-retired warrior to draw from if needed - could possibly (in theory) recall enough to troops to have its own Galaxy, or at least have multiple Clusters. 

I that case, a Galaxy Commander could be under the command of an OvKhan.  In theory.  Because the new ranks are leadership roles, and not confined to ubiquitous Clan military operational hierarchy, it hit me that this was the intended command structure.

Just wondering out loud.  I knew I could count on my Sea Fox trothkin.  :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 29 November 2014, 00:02:26
The Khanates are the galaxy like formation. So in theory each Aimag is a cluster. If you look at the organizational charts.

but, like I said, Sea Foxes have never been one to stand on tradition.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 11 December 2014, 11:20:47
Hey, do we ever learn more about Jasmine (Yung)? Notable Diamond Shark personality from FM: WC.

Wondering if she pops up in any later references.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 11 December 2014, 16:47:14
Not that I've seen in anything. They seem to think she is pretty important. But she doesn't seem involved in anything after the switch or before it. I could be wrong. But I never saw her mentioned other than in the notable personalities section.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Alan Grant on 11 December 2014, 18:34:17
At the time I saw it and thought they might be setting up a future Shark Khan or something. But in other books we've seen oddball warriors sometimes presented who had no lasting mention, like Darryl of the Paynes (Clan Fire Mandrill) who was just extremely lucky and notable for it. But I don't think we ever heard anything more about him.

So now it certainly feels like Jasmine was just another snapshot of a warrior persona, though it was cool to learn about how the Yung bloodname was shared by 3 Clans, it was a good canon example of the non-exclusive bloodnames.

But recently I had been thinking about that and started digging around trying to find any post-3060s references to a Jasmine Yung.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 11 December 2014, 18:50:41
Find out what unit she's in.  Perhaps she commands the cluster during the Wars of Reaving or Jihad.  The fate of that unit might indicate what happened to her.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 11 December 2014, 20:36:34
Beta Galaxy. Pearl Skate.

They've been sitting around holding Inner Sphere holdings forever. Except when Nykvarn exploded.

Tougher search when it comes to Clan Diamond Shark. You don't get to know what they were up to really.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: rebs on 11 December 2014, 21:11:34
That's true.  I was figuring even without that it's still a shot in the dark, but it could lead to something, possibly.  Research in BT is serious business, as we know.

Another of those mysteries, regardless.  The kind that could lead to story time for anyone.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 11 December 2014, 23:15:05
Another of those mysteries, regardless.  The kind that could lead to story time for anyone.

Mannnnn I just want to hear more 'bout dem Chainelanes.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wellspring on 20 December 2014, 19:51:28
Beta Galaxy. Pearl Skate.

They've been sitting around holding Inner Sphere holdings forever. Except when Nykvarn exploded.

Tougher search when it comes to Clan Diamond Shark. You don't get to know what they were up to really.

Maybe she just topped out. Especially in the Sea Fox era, it's easy for a superlative warrior's career to plateau because their administrative ability is lacking.

I'm honestly happy to see it when the obligatory Young Ristar Personality never goes anywhere. If they're always foreshadowing, then it stops being interesting. And it fits the clan MO that you have ristars who are the Next Big Thing after a few good early trials and then suffer the rookie curse (aka regression to the mean) and never go anywhere from there. And then every once in a while a rookie gets an entry and turns into a pivotal character, and you can be like "we saw him here first when he was a newbie!"

Many literary tricks are awesome when used sparingly, boring when used too often, and positively cliche when overused.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Drewbacca on 18 March 2015, 16:50:18
Do any of the Shark/ Foxes out there know if there is a gif of the Sea Fox logo that was on the sail on the ship in Invading Clans?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nav_Alpha on 15 April 2015, 22:36:23
Going out on a limb here... But there was a Diamond Shark fighting in the Solaris arenas in the lead up to the FedCom Civil War named Jasmine. Can't remember if she had a Bloodname though.
Could that be here?
She gets a mention in Illusions of Victory and maybe the Solaris source book.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 15 April 2015, 23:38:07
Strange. I've never heard of her. I think there was a Jasmine mentioned in the field manual warden clans. I'll have to read into it.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: roosterboy on 16 April 2015, 03:29:27
Going out on a limb here... But there was a Diamond Shark fighting in the Solaris arenas in the lead up to the FedCom Civil War named Jasmine. Can't remember if she had a Bloodname though.

Jasmine Kalasa, a CDS trueborn fighting for Lion City Stables.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Nav_Alpha on 16 April 2015, 09:17:31
Jasmine Kalasa, a CDS trueborn fighting for Lion City Stables.

There you go! Different Jasmine. But I knew there was one fighting in the arenas
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 22 July 2015, 18:05:25
Bumping this with the new stuff we've gotten in NTNU of TRO:3150.

We're selling a hot-running Goshawk that uses an XXL, helping start up a Clan-spec Caesar line in Davion space(with Hardened Armor, Talons, TSM, and Clan weapons), building new IS and Clan-spec Shoguns for the 'Goons and other mercs (with the Clan version using Ferro-Lam), selling Clan-spec Gotterdammerung upgrade kits (that uses, once again, Ferro-Lam), and we're tinkering around with an new version of the Cave Lion to sell now that we're the only holders of the production rights left alive.

And yet, even with these commercial successes, I can't help but feel like soon I'll have to split these sort of lists by Khanate - if even they remain. The money might be rolling in, but each Khanate is becoming more and more interlinked with their territory's host nation(s).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 22 July 2015, 18:14:26
*pssst* you forgot to read the NL-45
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 22 July 2015, 20:16:20
Oh. And we have confirmation that we have access to NL-45s, although the Ravens are still the ones who are selling them (from what I can see).
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Maelwys on 22 July 2015, 20:35:08
I find the Shogun pretty sad really. Over 3300 `Mechs, and yet CGL sees the need to bring it back into production? Really? Does it really serve any purpose that another design wouldn't?

And at the request of the Dragoons?

"Oh sure, you're not Clans, you're mercenaries, shell-shocked, reduced to a few companies worth of troops, but yeah. Sure. We'll dedicate production lines to you. You can pay right? Oh. You lost pretty much everything? Don't really have a way to generate income? Living at the forbearance of others and might not be around soon? Sure! No problem! Clantech Assaults are cheap!"
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: GreekFire on 22 July 2015, 20:55:40
I find the Shogun pretty sad really. Over 3300 `Mechs, and yet CGL sees the need to bring it back into production? Really? Does it really serve any purpose that another design wouldn't?

I'm guessing that it has something to do with the Shogun appearing in one of the new Lance Packs more than anything.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: nckestrel on 22 July 2015, 20:57:39
I'm guessing that it has something to do with the Shogun appearing in one of the new Lance Packs more than anything.

Bingo.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: nckestrel on 22 July 2015, 20:59:04
I find the Shogun pretty sad really. Over 3300 `Mechs, and yet CGL sees the need to bring it back into production? Really? Does it really serve any purpose that another design wouldn't?

And at the request of the Dragoons?

"Oh sure, you're not Clans, you're mercenaries, shell-shocked, reduced to a few companies worth of troops, but yeah. Sure. We'll dedicate production lines to you. You can pay right? Oh. You lost pretty much everything? Don't really have a way to generate income? Living at the forbearance of others and might not be around soon? Sure! No problem! Clantech Assaults are cheap!"

And they are selling Shogun to mercenaries in general, not just Wolf's Dragoons.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: snewsom2997 on 22 July 2015, 21:05:09
I find the Shogun pretty sad really. Over 3300 `Mechs, and yet CGL sees the need to bring it back into production? Really? Does it really serve any purpose that another design wouldn't?

And at the request of the Dragoons?

"Oh sure, you're not Clans, you're mercenaries, shell-shocked, reduced to a few companies worth of troops, but yeah. Sure. We'll dedicate production lines to you. You can pay right? Oh. You lost pretty much everything? Don't really have a way to generate income? Living at the forbearance of others and might not be around soon? Sure! No problem! Clantech Assaults are cheap!"

The Dragoons got that nice DCMS contract to invade the FedSuns, with multiple Dragoon regiments, plus all the FedSuns salvage to part out and sell, money ain't their problem. At this point short of massive civilian atrocities, or trying to steal from the Foxes themselves, their company store is open for all.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 22 July 2015, 21:18:03
I find the Shogun pretty sad really. Over 3300 `Mechs, and yet CGL sees the need to bring it back into production? Really? Does it really serve any purpose that another design wouldn't?

And at the request of the Dragoons?

"Oh sure, you're not Clans, you're mercenaries, shell-shocked, reduced to a few companies worth of troops, but yeah. Sure. We'll dedicate production lines to you. You can pay right? Oh. You lost pretty much everything? Don't really have a way to generate income? Living at the forbearance of others and might not be around soon? Sure! No problem! Clantech Assaults are cheap!"

Well the Dark Age Dragoons are doing more than their fair share of Davion buttkicking in the Draconis March so I wouldn't dismiss them so readily.  Although of all the possible Dragoon designs to restart production, the Shogun isn't the first design that comes to mind.

I'm guessing that it has something to do with the Shogun appearing in one of the new Lance Packs more than anything.

Quite possible.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Maelwys on 22 July 2015, 22:04:51
I'm guessing that it has something to do with the Shogun appearing in one of the new Lance Packs more than anything.

Oh well. That explains that I guess. Sort of a silly design to put in the lance packs considering its rarity, but atleast it isn't random Dragoon fanboyism :)

And they are selling Shogun to mercenaries in general, not just Wolf's Dragoons.

Maybe selling to mercs, but it was at the request of the Dragoons.

The Dragoons got that nice DCMS contract to invade the FedSuns, with multiple Dragoon regiments, plus all the FedSuns salvage to part out and sell, money ain't their problem. At this point short of massive civilian atrocities, or trying to steal from the Foxes themselves, their company store is open for all.

The fluff says it was done "Shortly after the Jihad." So all that doesn't really matter. Oh well. OOC reasons for its existence. Meh :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 22 July 2015, 22:42:53
I like the Shogun, so I support the Sea Foxes making new ones.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 July 2015, 23:31:57
Unlike the 3050 monster, I assume it has DHS?  IS, Clan or mixed?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Maelwys on 22 July 2015, 23:42:09
It talks about resurrecting the Clan version, but also mentions an IS version with CASE II, and a Clan version with FL armor.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dragon41673 on 23 August 2015, 20:52:59
Does anyone know what the name of the production facility is on the Skate Khanate's Potemkin-class ArcShip CSF Atlantean? If so...where can I find the info? I'm in need for a Fan TRO some of us are working on in my forums.

Thank you!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Dreyf on 24 August 2015, 22:38:57
I am pretty sure the name of the facility and what it produces has not been mentioned yet.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 24 August 2015, 22:50:45
I am pretty sure the name of the facility and what it produces has not been mentioned yet.

In that case, it produces Hellstars, Black Pythons, Dire Wolves, Vapor Eagles, Stormcrows, and Timber Wolves.  Did I miss anything?   ;D
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Armond on 09 June 2017, 05:32:45
I am resurrecting this because this was the earliest Clan Diamond Shark/Sea Fox one I could find!

How does the Clan feel about the Grendel/Mongrel?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 09 June 2017, 08:18:51
Mad Cat (don't call them Timber Wolves ;)) Mk IVs, Nagasawa Class DropShips, Pocket WarShips (on special orders only, prepaid of course ;))
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Armond on 09 June 2017, 08:52:25
Mad Cat (don't call them Timber Wolves ;)) Mk IVs, Nagasawa Class DropShips, Pocket WarShips (on special orders only, prepaid of course ;))

I am a bit lost, are you just saying go with the Mk IVs and disregard the Grendel?  I do t think the Mad Cat IV existed in Clan Invasion era. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 09 June 2017, 08:54:08
I am a bit lost, are you just saying go with the Mk IVs and disregard the Grendel?  I do t think the Mad Cat IV existed in Clan Invasion era.

It didn't. You were unclear on which era you were talking about.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Armond on 09 June 2017, 09:19:31
I was for sure unclear, sorry for that.  Trying to wrap my head around how this particular thread works. 
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 09 June 2017, 11:17:30
I was for sure unclear, sorry for that.  Trying to wrap my head around how this particular thread works.
Basically these type of threads work at any specific time, they're general threads for each Clan or faction. If you're looking for info specific to a time frame just mention it and folks should follow along.


As for the Grendel, I think the base chassis is great, some of the variants are good, just not my favorites. The Prime, D, and H are the better ones in my mind. The A and E are also good.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 09 June 2017, 11:21:14
Basically these type of threads work at any specific time, they're general threads for each Clan or faction. If you're looking for info specific to a time frame just mention it and folks should follow along.

That's why the Chatterweb subforum is still distinct from the Inner Sphere factions subforum.  In the "current" timeline, there are are no Clan factions that aren't also Inner Sphere factions :)
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Frogfoot on 09 June 2017, 12:14:44
I am resurrecting this because this was the earliest Clan Diamond Shark/Sea Fox one I could find!

How does the Clan feel about the Grendel/Mongrel?

It's a decent Clan Medium mech. The chassis is fast and mobile. The Prime, A and D configs are all good, though the others are less so. I doubt I'd use the C for anything other than a duel with a low-end Aerospace fighter.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Armond on 09 June 2017, 18:23:15
Basically these type of threads work at any specific time, they're general threads for each Clan or faction. If you're looking for info specific to a time frame just mention it and folks should follow along.


As for the Grendel, I think the base chassis is great, some of the variants are good, just not my favorites. The Prime, D, and H are the better ones in my mind. The A and E are also good.

Thanks for the clarification! 

I am probably leaning towards a Striker Nova, will be having 2-3 points of Gnomes and 2-3 points of Elementals.  I just haven't decided yet.  The A, D, and Prime Variant all scream to me. I think the B seems pretty decent too, the potential to hit a little better after jumping around with the Pulse lasers is attractive.

What if I want one of each in a Star?  Lol
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: truetanker on 11 June 2017, 20:10:30
Well Gnomes are more of a Horse BA than Fox/Shark.

TT
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 June 2017, 22:19:07
Except IIRC by MWDA they are selling them . . .

 . . . during the Jihad?  I could see the Horses trading some as they settle into their OZ.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: sadlerbw on 11 June 2017, 23:08:02
Since this is back from the dead, might as well ask here: Do we have any official unit color schemes for the Dark Age Sea Foxes? I was going to paint some up, but didn't see anything on CSO. I suppose I could just pick one of the existing color schemes and say part of that galaxy ended up in whatever Khanate, but I find that less than ideal. I tried poking thorough FM:3145, but it didn't seem to have anything to say.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 June 2017, 23:23:51
I would suggest looking for Tiburons on CSO . . . they are MWDA mechs and I think some are painted up.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: JadedFalcon on 12 June 2017, 01:44:54
Searching for khanate on Camospecs should get you the necessary color schemes. The Sea Fox page doesn't seem to list anything.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Armond on 12 June 2017, 05:35:58
Well Gnomes are more of a Horse BA than Fox/Shark.

TT

I could see this.  The MUL shows them available for use by the Clan in the Clan Invasion era.  I figure limited numbers would be acceptable, especially in frontline Omnimechs Stars!
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: sadlerbw on 12 June 2017, 10:59:15
Searching for khanate on Camospecs should get you the necessary color schemes. The Sea Fox page doesn't seem to list anything.

Thanks, that did it!

I'm thinking ilKhanate because there are no mechs posted yet in that scheme...so I don't have to weep over how crap my paint jobs are compared to the CSO artists!

Oh, and let me just say, the Foxes get some very tasty equipment in the Dark Ages. In addition to all the Nova Cat leftovers they seem to have retained and the equipment they will sell to anyone, they have some very nice picks from the IS to fill out the lower end of their 3145 RAT as well. For instance, the Men Shen is about the best medium omni the IS has to offer, and the Foxes have access to it. It isn't just the mechs either. On the Aero tables, they get some nice IS stuff like the Dagger and Eisensturm. The Sea Foxes are some seriously dangerous folks in 3145.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 12 June 2017, 22:12:49
Though the Men Shen may not be much longer. We'll see with the Ilclan. But Tiburon Khanate is driving a Davion around right now.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Terrace on 13 June 2017, 15:57:36
Hey, question about the Sea Fox merchant business. Do they produce and sell Clantech ASFs (both Omni and not) to anyone with money, just like they do with 'Mechs, and if so, what does their inventory for such look like in each era?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 13 June 2017, 16:42:30
Hey, question about the Sea Fox merchant business. Do they produce and sell Clantech ASFs (both Omni and not) to anyone with money, just like they do with 'Mechs, and if so, what does their inventory for such look like in each era?

The MUL can answer what they have.  (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=&HasBV=true&HasBV=false&MinTons=&MaxTons=&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasRole=&HasBFAbility=&MinPV=&MaxPV=&Role=None+Selected&Types=17&Types=81&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=&Factions=82&Factions=56&AvailableEras=16) And it seems fairly safe to assume that anything they have they're willing to sell to whover can pay their price.

Although, that list only appears good for ASFs.  Small craft, DropShips and WarShips/JumpShips are clearly not yet fully integrated into the MUL.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 13 June 2017, 16:50:49
Hey, question about the Sea Fox merchant business. Do they produce and sell Clantech ASFs (both Omni and not) to anyone with money, just like they do with 'Mechs, and if so, what does their inventory for such look like in each era?
I'm sure there's some stuff that gets held back, either specific variants or entire designs. Just look at the Tiburon, that one they keep for themselves.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tai Dai Cultist on 13 June 2017, 17:01:45
I'm sure there's some stuff that gets held back, either specific variants or entire designs. Just look at the Tiburon, that one they keep for themselves.

I'd imagine the Tiburon not being open for export is an anomaly rather than the published tip of an unpublished iceberg.  Sea Foxes don't seem to be the sort to deny themselves profit by not selling someone something they want to buy.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Cryhavok101 on 13 June 2017, 17:53:05
Ya'll should know: Which sourcebooks should I be looking at to get a good idea of how the Diamond sharks are doing in various parts of space in the Civil War, Jihad and Dark Age eras?

I have them set as an ally in some material I am righting for my own AU, but at present I am trying to figure out how I should write up what I want to happen, and I would like to get a better picture of how they are in canon.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 June 2017, 23:33:01
I'm sure there's some stuff that gets held back, either specific variants or entire designs. Just look at the Tiburon, that one they keep for themselves.

There is also a variant of the Mad Cat Mk. II that is just for officers.

Era also matters. They started with the Ha Otoko. Mad Cat Mk II's were the first clan tech product the Diamond Sharks offered to the Sphere.

I'm honestly not sure where clan air frames are manufactured. They are ancient.

I've been asking for some Sea Fox and Snow Raven omni fighters since they are aerospace based factions and the other clan omni's are from the golden Era or something...

Anyways. Clan Sea Fox produced the Hydaspes on Twycross so... there is that.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 June 2017, 23:48:59
So an amendment.

Two clan omni fighters were built a few decades before the invasion...

The only omni fighters confirmed being built in the inner sphere are from the snow ravens. Crest Foundries makes the Bashkir, Sabutai and the Scytha.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 13 June 2017, 23:57:36
Ya'll should know: Which sourcebooks should I be looking at to get a good idea of how the Diamond sharks are doing in various parts of space in the Civil War, Jihad and Dark Age eras?

I have them set as an ally in some material I am righting for my own AU, but at present I am trying to figure out how I should write up what I want to happen, and I would like to get a better picture of how they are in canon.

Invading Clans so you can watch them get their ass kicked on Tukayyid. Field Manual Warden Clans so you can see them get rid of Hawker. Field Manual Updates to see them help the Nova Cats and Ghost Bears move.  Wars of Reaving to see them actually do something. They push the Steel Vipers around and smash them to pieces. Then a monolithic battleship arrives and they run for their lives...

Then read the novel hunters of the deep.

Clan Sea Fox is different. They are nomadic wandering traders. A Warrior Merchant shows up in a Tiburon and cuts a deal / fights some trials on your planet. Sells you some information about stuff happening during the blackout. Then moves on.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 14 June 2017, 00:02:42
I'd imagine the Tiburon not being open for export is an anomaly rather than the published tip of an unpublished iceberg.  Sea Foxes don't seem to be the sort to deny themselves profit by not selling someone something they want to buy.

I'm not sure why it is exclusive. I imagine marketing. It's actually built for Warrior Traders. All the weapons are hidden. So its basically a warrior trader car...

Until you challenge them to a trial. Then it's a min maxed nightmare.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Cryhavok101 on 14 June 2017, 00:35:14
Invading Clans so you can watch them get their ass kicked on Tukayyid. Field Manual Warden Clans so you can see them get rid of Hawker. Field Manual Updates to see them help the Nova Cats and Ghost Bears move.  Wars of Reaving to see them actually do something. They push the Steel Vipers around and smash them to pieces. Then a monolithic battleship arrives and they run for their lives...

Then read the novel hunters of the deep.

Clan Sea Fox is different. They are nomadic wandering traders. A Warrior Merchant shows up in a Tiburon and cuts a deal / fights some trials on your planet. Sells you some information about stuff happening during the blackout. Then moves on.

Thanks! I'll check those out. I have Wars of Reaving, but not any of the others. How likely is an alliance/working relationship with the whole clan, or are they broken into subfactions like the mandrills? Does one of those books go into more detail about their organizations structure, especially Jihad and Dark Age era?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 14 June 2017, 07:07:34
So an amendment.

Two clan omni fighters were built a few decades before the invasion...

The only omni fighters confirmed being built in the inner sphere are from the snow ravens. Crest Foundries makes the Bashkir, Sabutai and the Scytha.

Also the Raven's Wusun on Ramora and the Bear's Ostragoth on Alshain. Both of those are courtesy of TRO 3085.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 14 June 2017, 07:49:10
Thanks! I'll check those out. I have Wars of Reaving, but not any of the others. How likely is an alliance/working relationship with the whole clan, or are they broken into subfactions like the mandrills? Does one of those books go into more detail about their organizations structure, especially Jihad and Dark Age era?
Field Manual 3145, starting on pg 151 has some good info on the divisions. Also, the Touring the Stars articles from MWDA has good info too. The MWDA stuff was written by Herb and other folks that are or were BT writers/developers, but it's semi-canon. Kind of it's canon until something is published by Catalyst that says otherwise. http://bg.battletech.com/download/DarkAge_Touring_the_Stars.pdf?x64300
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 14 June 2017, 10:04:30
Thanks! I'll check those out. I have Wars of Reaving, but not any of the others. How likely is an alliance/working relationship with the whole clan, or are they broken into subfactions like the mandrills? Does one of those books go into more detail about their organizations structure, especially Jihad and Dark Age era?

The novels hunters of the deep and to ride the chimera go into a bit more detail. But only of the free world's league Spina Khanate.

Era Report 3145 and Field Manual 3145 talk the most about the Sea Foxes.

Each Aimag is seperate. There are differences between Khanates and Aimags.

But they are still Sea Foxes. If you are a good customer they are going to be friendly.

Keep in mind there are lots of epithets in the Dark Ages about how likely people are to become trapped by Sea Foxes.

If you read Hunters of the Deep and To Ride The Chimera, or even the small moment they show up in that Jade Falcon book by Milan they are pretty friendly though...

Just know that any interaction with them will cost you something. They'll be upfront about what it costs unless you cross them. Then they'll take whatever they can and give nothing back.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: wantec on 14 June 2017, 12:43:22
There's more to it, but each Khanate is the rough equivalent of a Galaxy and each Aimag, the rough equivalent of a Cluster. I say rough because there's a fixed number of Khanates (5) and each Khanate has a fixed number of Aimags (5). Where in any other Clan you see the numbers of Clusters and Galaxies rise and fall as the Clan builds or shrinks its touman, it's the size of the Sea Fox Aimags that get bigger or smaller.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 14 June 2017, 16:11:31
We still have no comment on if the Sea Foxes are still cheating on their accounting though...

In the past a Diamond Shark Galaxy could be twice as large as another clans Galaxy. So sometimes on paper it seemed like you had a few clusters coming at you and in practice twice as many units were landing.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Cryhavok101 on 14 June 2017, 16:36:42
Which is why it is funny when the enemy commander doesn't actually read your bids, just skimming the summary.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Archangel on 15 June 2017, 00:39:03
Which is why it is funny when the enemy commander doesn't actually read your bids, just skimming the summary.

It actually wouldn't be surprising considering that many rival Clans looked upon them with disdain due to them allowing their lower castes (especially the merchant caste) undue influence in areas beyond their station.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 June 2017, 01:10:44
Actually I think the numbers were running that a Aimag was really 2 or 3 of the old clusters.  Which makes sense if they are down to 5 khanates because they had more than that for number of galaxies- basically I think I remember folks talking about a khanate being a frontline galaxy & spina galaxy . . . but we are also not told how the Fox worlds are actually garrisoned.  Is that where the garrison clusters went?  To places like the Chainlaines, Ibatianta, etc.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 15 June 2017, 19:56:59
We don't talk about the Chainlaines. *Deploys Watch Agents*
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Drewbacca on 18 May 2018, 06:48:34
Where are all the Sharks and Foxes hiding? Recent events have put me in touch with my inner merchant and I thought I would see who was around to represent my first faction.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 18 May 2018, 17:57:01
I think they will come back out soon. :) Once Ilclan comes out. Just not much to talk about right now.

We always welcome anot her recruit to the good guys though. How are you?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Drewbacca on 19 May 2018, 02:50:22
Still faction jumping. But the shark tank keeps drawing me back. So many possibilities.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: truetanker on 19 May 2018, 12:05:23
Every time I watch Shark Tank on TV, I picture them as a DS/SF batchall in a biding war!

And when I watch Tanked, the aquarium builders, I think of them as Aerojocks describing a ToP.

TT
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Drewbacca on 20 May 2018, 10:03:29
Two things: Reading the book that came with Solaris Map Pack, I am not surprised in that a good number of the Clansmen who have neem identified as involved in the fights are Sharks.

Secondly, where do I find info on the post Jihad Foxes?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 20 May 2018, 11:32:11
A little in Wars of Reaving, Wars of the Republic Era, Era Report 3145, and Field Manual 3145.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Drewbacca on 20 May 2018, 18:14:26
Thanks.

Question time: What is the best Fox/Shark mech per era?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 21 May 2018, 00:56:45
Tiberoun, Piranha, Mad Cat IV
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Drewbacca on 21 May 2018, 04:29:08
From which TRO is the Tiberoun?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Sharpnel on 21 May 2018, 05:02:06
From which TRO is the Tiberoun?
TRO 3145 Mercenaries
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Drewbacca on 21 May 2018, 05:57:19
Thank you.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Drewbacca on 21 May 2018, 11:41:38
Hey, everyone, I was reading through this thread and various sourcebooks, to catch up on my knowledge of all things DiamondFox when I found myself asking myself a few questions. Unfortunately I could not find answers, so I thought I would check with you all. Both came from rereading FM:WC.

1. What ever happened to the Ristar Jasmin of the Yungs. Did she get a mention in Updates or just the one in FM:WC?

2. Looking at the Cluster designations I am assuming that "Combined" means Aero and Mech forces, Assault is the equivalent of Heavy Assault units, a mix of Heavy and Assault mechs or asf, Strike is a mix of Heavy and Mediums like Striker units, but what about Cruiser. I do not remember seeing this designation anywhere else, and I get the feeling it is more along the lines or a Hussar or Light Horse but mech or aerospace based, but I would like to know for sure. THere does not seem to be any description of what makes a Cruiser Cluster anywhere.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: truetanker on 21 May 2018, 19:12:13
She commands Emerald Skate, and Emerald Skate was in FM:Updates, pg. 77.

As a member of House Yung, very few trials are undertaken for the Bloodname. While it is true she is of Yung bloodline, but not currently she's not named.

Trail runs cold in the Jihad...

Hope it helps?

TT
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Crow on 26 May 2018, 06:56:21
Can anyone take a stab what Shark-Raven relations are like in the post-3075 time frame?
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 26 May 2018, 08:06:39
Ravens need stuff

Sharks sell stuff

Simple.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: truetanker on 26 May 2018, 08:22:58
Ravens need stuff

Sharks sell stuff

Simple.

No Ravens break their stuff, and then Sharks sell them stuff that doesn't include the ammo or extra weapon pods or even the cost of shipping fees!

TT
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 26 May 2018, 09:24:39
Can anyone take a stab what Shark-Raven relations are like in the post-3075 time frame?

There was the great warship swap as well.

I think the Shark-Foxes and Ravens are both pretty pragmatic about their relations. Largely indifferent, cooperate when necessary.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: jklantern on 26 May 2018, 10:39:01
Even back when they were "rivals", to the extent that the Sharkfoxes actually HAVE any of those, I remember FM Warden Clans describing them as willing to do business with each other.  Granted, they were not feeling like they were going to be bosom chums at any point, but alienating everyone completely is bad for business.

Man, I should try to track down another copy/PDF of that.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 10 July 2018, 15:48:24
Anybody interested in doing Warrior Trader ATOW over in the Campaigns forum? Thinking about running something. Though my time is going to get dicey after August 22nd for awhile.
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Kitsune413 on 14 July 2018, 01:03:37
I love how in the dark age unit listings there are all these mechs that the owner has because Clan Sea Fox won it in a fight somewhere and then sold it to them.

Fight a trial against some Ghost Bears. Take a Kodiak as isorla. Sell it to some dude in the Lyran Commonwealth...
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: VensersRevenge on 20 July 2018, 16:22:21
Hello everyone. I am normally an Inner Sphere Merc/Davion player, but I want to build a Sea Fox Star for the Dark Age. Due to their connections with Julian Davion, I was planning on building a Tiburon Khanate Star. Other than the fact that it is a light star and Tiburon Khanate prefers heavier forces, does this star seem reasonable?
Tiburon
Crimson Langur
Koshi Standard
Pack Hunter
Grendel
All of these units are on the Sea Fox Dark Age MUL, but I am not sure if some of them would not be available to Tiburon Khanate in particular. Thanks for the help.
Venser
Title: Re: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...
Post by: Deadborder on 20 July 2018, 19:41:45
Seems entirely reasonable to me. There's not enough info to say if any one Khanate has access to any specific designs, so I'd say that any "Sea Fox" 'Mech fits with Tiburon. Besides, you have the Crimson Languar, and that's awesome in and of itself.
Title: Re: The Di