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BattleTech Game Systems => Ground Combat => Topic started by: Frabby on 22 April 2019, 08:28:50

Title: DFA against prone or displaced target?
Post by: Frabby on 22 April 2019, 08:28:50
In a pickup game yesterday, an Archer walked into an enemy Enforcer's rear. They both stood on a lvl 1 ridge. In the subsequent fire phase, the Archer suffered a gyro hit and fell down.

Next turn, the Archer moved first and managed to stand up. The Enforcer then declared a DFA attack against the Archer behind him.

During the fire phase, the Archer sufferend 20+ damage, failed its piloting roll, and fell. Roll for direction of fall was a 2, i.e. facing front-right... which was a lvl 0 hex.

1. One guy opined that this would mean the Archer falls down into the lower hex, and indeed I dimly recall such a rule from the earliest days. But consulting Total Warfare, a failed piloting skill roll on 20+ damage does not displace the unit and it falls down in its own hex, even if it were on top of a spire. (Correct?)

2. Total Warfare also says that only certain physical attacks are allowed against a prone target, and DFA is not among them. So... what happens if the target of a DFA attack falls down after the firing phase?

3. In the same vein, what happens to a DFA attack if the target is somehow, for some (any) reason, displaced from its hex before the physical attack phase?

Edit: 2 means front-right direction for a fall, not front-left. (That would be a 6.)
Title: Re: DFA against prone or displaced target?
Post by: Weirdo on 22 April 2019, 08:53:37
1: You are correct. 99% of the time, a falling mech stays in its hex.

2: As I understand, DFAs are still allowed against prone targets.

3: This might be a question for the Rules Forum. Offhand, I'd say the DFA is an auto-fail if the target is no longer in the hex, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: DFA against prone or displaced target?
Post by: Sartris on 22 April 2019, 09:48:49
Agree that the archer falls in its own hex.

Unsure how to calculate a DFA in this circumstance - does the enforcer get the -2 since the attack was initiated from the adjacent hex or the standard +1.

As to #3 - if for some reason something weird happened like the archer getting pushed before the DFA resolved, it would be an auto fall for the enforcer. If it got moved as a result of a domino displacement sequence... accidental fall from above on the new hex occupier?
Title: Re: DFA against prone or displaced target?
Post by: Paul on 22 April 2019, 14:41:45
1. A normal fall does not include displacement.

2. You can DFA a probe Mech. In fact, youd get a 2 bonus to hit, and do damage on the rear table.

3. Resolve as if the attack failed. Enforcer occupies the target hex, and needs a PSR to stay standing.
Note that a Mech may only be the target of one displacement attack per turn. So this scenario can happen if you shoot the target in the weapons  phase.
Title: Re: DFA against prone or displaced target?
Post by: Frabby on 22 April 2019, 15:32:48
Thanks guys!
3. Resolve as if the attack failed. Enforcer occupies the target hex, and needs a PSR to stay standing.
Note that a Mech may only be the target of one displacement attack per turn. So this scenario can happen if you shoot the target in the weapons  phase.
But what if another 'Mech now occupies the target hex?
Say the Archer moves first, then the Enforcer declares (and move for) a DFA attack against the Archer - and then a third 'Mech skids while trying to turn on a road, falls into the hex occupied by the Archer and thus displaces it. The Enforcer can't hit the Archer anymore but from how I understand it, can't even enter the target hex anymore. Where does it end its turn?
Or does the DFA declaration "protect" the Archer from accidental displacement such as the third 'Mech's skidding?

Btw Mods, please feel free to move this thread into a more appropriate subforum at your discretion.
Title: Re: DFA against prone or displaced target?
Post by: Sartris on 22 April 2019, 15:33:54
i would say accidental fall from above.
Title: Re: DFA against prone or displaced target?
Post by: Frabby on 22 April 2019, 15:36:00
Yeah, that'd make sense.
Title: Re: DFA against prone or displaced target?
Post by: Paul on 22 April 2019, 16:43:38
Yes, AFFA. I believe thats actually covered under displacement in TW.
Title: Re: DFA against prone or displaced target?
Post by: Iceweb on 22 April 2019, 21:16:55
I have to wonder if a mech with the nimble jumper quirk might be able to retarget to the new hex of the displaced mech, assuming it had the jump movement to reach the new hex?  Maybe it would need a PSR to do so?  Maybe that would be too cinematic for the harder world of BTech, I'm not sure but it sure is cool to imagine.   
Title: Re: DFA against prone or displaced target?
Post by: Xotl on 23 April 2019, 01:25:42
1.
Quote
I dimly recall such a rule from the earliest days

You're right, except that it's carried through almost until today.

TW p. 68 (1st through 4th printings) says "In general, when a ’Mech falls while moving from one level to another, it drops into the lower of the two hexes."  However, TW p. 59 says:
"Piloting Skill Rolls required because of movement ... must be made immediately following the action."

Can't have both.  Then there was:

TW p. 68 says:
"To find the number of levels the ’Mech fell, subtract the level of the hex into which it fell from the level of the hex from which it began the fall."

It doesn't tell how you determine where you "began the fall".  And if you always fall in the hex you arrive at (per TW p. 59), then all falls due to your own movement are 0-level falls.  You "began the fall" in the hex you arrived in, and you fall there: it doesn't matter how many levels you changed or whatever.

I realized during the Manual's construction that BT has used this rule wording back to the 2nd ed rulebook (one of a few things that led Randall and/or I to ask how the hell that had been missed all these years).  In the Manual and the TW 5th printing those legacy sentences have all been axed and it now states with certainty that falls always occur in the hex the PSR was failed in.  This of course makes PSR timing an important thing.

2. DFA *is* among them.  See p. 151.  So no problem in this scenario.

3. "If a physical attack might cause displacement, and in doing
so interrupt another physical attack, the ’Mech with the lower
Initiative (i.e. the first to move) resolves its physical attack first. If
both attackers are on the same side, the controlling player(s) may
determine which attack is resolved first. If no valid target exists, the
attack automatically fails."