BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat

BattleTech Game Systems => Ground Combat => Topic started by: YingJanshi on 24 December 2012, 19:26:01

Title: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: YingJanshi on 24 December 2012, 19:26:01
Are hand-held weapons really any good? I haven't tinkered with them since MaxTech (TO doesn't seem to change any thing). They always seemed kinda useless to me.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 24 December 2012, 19:45:41
I haven't played with them all that much. To me, it seems that the best uses of Handheld Weapons are either as ambush weapons, loaded with the max number of Rocket Launchers or iOS SRMs for a massive opening salvo that can then be dropped so the 'mech can fight normally. The other use is with iOS LRM racks, giving close-range 'mechs a good long-range salvo that can again be dropped so the 'mech can close and fight normally.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 25 December 2012, 19:32:21
If it's good on an ICE Vee it's good in a Handheld, so missile launchers rule the day, TAG is also useful (no multipliers)
They work if you KNOW when you start designing the 'Mech that you're going to be using HH's later on, the Quickdraw-8X is a good example of this (The -8P is NOT, that Stealth Armor on the -8X is to heat the 'Mech up enough to activate the TSM)

The Axman-6X is a bad example, it has torso mounted weapons with longer range and/or higher damage then most of it's options (some of them however are good for giving the -1N more range)

If you limit the HH's size to 5% of the BattleMechs and use the advanced carrying rules in TacOps you can go guns akimo, like this and Atlas (or other 100-tonner) can carry 2 HH's with 5 RL-15's each

House rules (like allowing 'Mech heat sinks to cool energy weapons) change all of this
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Wolf72 on 25 December 2012, 22:57:20
for a 100 ton mech you could use a Heavy Rifle, with one ton of ammo (6 shots?), with one ton of armor ...  Not a great weapon, but it could be useful a bit of softening up (or go with a LAC-5 ... not sure why I'm on a primitive weapons kick ... oh, I remember, I made a 100 ton primitive mech with 4 Heavy Rifles, and got 5th by using a HH gun).

It's like having a simple back up weapon, that you use when everything else is gone or as quick softener before you open up with your main guns.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 26 December 2012, 01:43:39
A Heavy Rifle is the same as an AC-5, just does more damage, which in this case could be good
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 26 December 2012, 09:45:23
FWIW, I found them useful packed with rocket launcher 10s. Put that in the hands of a Spider which can jump all over the place and can carry 6 RL-10s, and suddenly you have a really nasty backstabber. The best part is that the RL-10s are like twice the range of the Spider's normal weapons.

And I've used some Patron Security Mechs (XTRO:RetroTech) in an urban ambush scenario, equipped with a similar weapon. Really nice for them to step out, fire off all three RL-10s and then fall back into cover. Nice to make vehicles (and even light 'Mechs) think twice.

Other than that, the handheld weapon (HHW) isn't really effective. You can pack more weapons and heat sinks in a 'Mech's skeleton or vehicle chassis, and note that the 'mechs I mentioned earlier don't have a lot of torso/arm mounted weapons. If you use a HHW on a BattleMaster, Thunderbolt, or Warlord for example, you actually lose a great deal of firepower since the torso and arm mounted weapons can't be fired while carrying a HHW. (Though again, for ambushes, maybe.)

The only other situation where I can think of it being useful would be in an urban clearing scenario. If you lack units that are effective anti-infantry units, you could probably bang together a HHW with a machine gun or vehicle flamer pretty quickly. You'd just be limiting one of your units. (Maybe give it to a Panther?)

Actually I wonder if the Capellan Confederation would whip up some HHW's devoted to laying/destroying minefields. Something to experiment with.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Wolf72 on 26 December 2012, 17:05:17
Maybe I skimmed that part of the book real fast ... I thought you could still fire your torso/arm weapons, but not at the same time as your HHW.  So shoot your held weapon, or shoot your torso stuff.

SCC: I like the HR b/c of the limited ammo ... you can use it up quick, then get rid of it (and hope your salvage team gets it before your opponents)
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 26 December 2012, 17:12:32
So shoot your held weapon, or shoot your torso stuff.

To clarify, you cannot fire any torso or arm-mounted weapons if you are carrying a handheld at all, not just in a turn that you fire the hand-held. If you want to fire those torso/arm guns, you must drop the handheld completely.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Wolf72 on 26 December 2012, 21:05:18
To clarify, you cannot fire any torso or arm-mounted weapons if you are carrying a handheld at all, not just in a turn that you fire the hand-held. If you want to fire those torso/arm guns, you must drop the handheld completely.

Yeah, that's what I was starting to realise.  We need a new weapon, some sort of 1 or 3 shot BFG.  A one shot LRM-15 hand held would be what ... 7.5 tons.  If you can spare 2 turns you can shoot, drop, then go shoot normally.

[edit: just looking over my mech designs ... and I have solved the problem! ... and created a new one.  I have a 15 ton scout mech, 7/11/6 ... no weapons, but it can hold 2 MG +.5 ammo as a Hand held weapon.  Lets not mention the inherent fragility of a 15 ton mech.]
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 26 December 2012, 23:33:54
BattleMech Jump Pack's are a better option for your 15-tonner, you will have 3 tons free for weapon now while upping you Jump MP to 7 (See TacOps pg 293 for details)

Also note that every time one of your arms is hit there is a 1/6 chance that the weapon will be hit, completely destroying it
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 27 December 2012, 08:40:26
BattleMech Jump Pack's are a better option for your 15-tonner, you will have 3 tons free for weapon now while upping you Jump MP to 7 (See TacOps pg 293 for details)

Also note that every time one of your arms is hit there is a 1/6 chance that the weapon will be hit, completely destroying it
Unless you add armor, which will take up at least half a ton. So that 15 tonner will have a single MG and a half ton of ammo.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Wolf72 on 27 December 2012, 21:06:05
BattleMech Jump Pack's are a better option for your 15-tonner, you will have 3 tons free for weapon now while upping you Jump MP to 7 (See TacOps pg 293 for details)

Also note that every time one of your arms is hit there is a 1/6 chance that the weapon will be hit, completely destroying it

any hit on a 15 tonner is likely to be game ending for it ... armoring the weapon would be an idea.

Would an ammo explosion from a HH weapon do anything spectacular (aka massively destructive)?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 28 December 2012, 08:12:59
any hit on a 15 tonner is likely to be game ending for it ... armoring the weapon would be an idea.

Would an ammo explosion from a HH weapon do anything spectacular (aka massively destructive)?
I don't think there are rules for critical hits on a HHW. Once the armor is gone and it takes any damage it's destroyed, so there's no chance of an ammo explosion.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Wolf72 on 29 December 2012, 20:53:16
I don't think there are rules for critical hits on a HHW. Once the armor is gone and it takes any damage it's destroyed, so there's no chance of an ammo explosion.

so, no mech loosing it's hand because it decided to hold on it's Battletech version of an M-80 then.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 31 December 2012, 09:14:29
so, no mech loosing it's hand because it decided to hold on it's Battletech version of an M-80 then.
Not officially. You could always home rule it if you really wanted to see that.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Colt Ward on 01 January 2013, 20:19:56
I would think HHW would be the best way to quickly arm industrial mechs.  In fact, it might be the best way for Engineer IndiMechs to be armed.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 01 January 2013, 21:01:51
Any 100-ton Indy-Mech with iTSM can carry a weapon the size of a Locust, nuff said
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 02 January 2013, 14:54:12
But it'll take a +1 penalty to attacks with that weapon, thanks to the iTSM.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 02 January 2013, 14:59:22
+1 penalty, but 20 tons of gun.

I can dig it.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: wellspring on 02 January 2013, 16:29:48
What do you guys think of giving a HHW to a LAM for spec ops missions? You free-drop the weapons as cargo, which the LAMs retrieve once they land. They then conduct their mission, using extra firepower they direly need and that a hand-held gives them. Then drop/destroy the weapon prior to converting to ASF mode and bugging out off-world for extraction.

I'm assuming that a LAM can't carry its weapon while it's in modes that don't have hands. Safe assumption, I think.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 02 January 2013, 16:35:03
Possible, though the full LAM rules when published may prohibit that.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 02 January 2013, 17:37:49
What do you guys think of giving a HHW to a LAM for spec ops missions? You free-drop the weapons as cargo, which the LAMs retrieve once they land. They then conduct their mission, using extra firepower they direly need and that a hand-held gives them. Then drop/destroy the weapon prior to converting to ASF mode and bugging out off-world for extraction.

I'm assuming that a LAM can't carry its weapon while it's in modes that don't have hands. Safe assumption, I think.

It would be very neat if it could be used as a pod on the LAM though.

I mean, nowadays, the high to hit mods of LAMs are not just theirs;  a 55 tonner with  IJJs and a Partial wing can go 5/8/10 and still have decent weaponry.

It'd be nice to throw the LAMs a bone.

Good idea regardless;  handhelds for special forces.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Wolf72 on 02 January 2013, 22:39:34
HHW seem fairly limited ... I get that a LAM can't really keep one through transformation, but what about just in Airmech or Mech modes?

on a side note, what do you think the most common HHW would be? (my guess is LRM's and RL's) ... I would think the least common would be any type of energy weapon ... a single ER ML would be a 6 ton HHW, a regular ML would still be 4 tons. hmmm the Light PPC would be 8 tons, that I could use until I remember no torso/arm weapons till said hand weapon is dropped.

Can we fudge the rules and make AC's less than full ton counts? ... Maybe only have 3 or 4 rounds for and AC-5, but still count the ammo as a full ton lot?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 02 January 2013, 22:51:46
The rules for HH have changed, you only pay the weight of the ammo shots you take
Just remember that HH's are limited to 10% of the 'Mechs weight, meaning that you are Clan Class-2, Light and ProtoMech AC's. Also on offer are MagShot and AP Gauss Rifles and some of the smaller energy weapons
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 03 January 2013, 05:05:31
Any 100-ton Indy-Mech with iTSM can carry a weapon the size of a Locust, nuff said
Yeah, but which ones HAVE iTSM?
+1 penalty, but 20 tons of gun.

I can dig it.
Shame you can't put an HGR in, that plus four shots and one ton of armor would be perfect for a disposable 'hit and flee' unit that's not supposed to do more than be a nasty surprise.  As for what you CAN do, well, six weapons...LB20 with a ton of cluster, and some SRMs would make a fun little HI THERE moment.  Alternatively, you don't need to bother...oh that's sick.  100 tonners with TSM and HHW-Maces anyone?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 03 January 2013, 08:39:40
I would think HHW would be the best way to quickly arm industrial mechs.  In fact, it might be the best way for Engineer IndiMechs to be armed.
That just sparked an idea.
Yeah, but which ones HAVE iTSM?
I think I hear the siren song of a new design going into the forums. ;)

Or maybe the updated TRO:VA.
Shame you can't put an HGR in, that plus four shots and one ton of armor would be perfect for a disposable 'hit and flee' unit that's not supposed to do more than be a nasty surprise.  As for what you CAN do, well, six weapons...LB20 with a ton of cluster, and some SRMs would make a fun little HI THERE moment.  Alternatively, you don't need to bother...oh that's sick.  100 tonners with TSM and HHW-Maces anyone?
Point of order: The HHW is for ranged weapons only. Physical weapons like Maces can't go into a HHW. (Unless you mean the HHW was being carried by a 'Mech with a Mace, in which case I just wet my pants.)

on a side note, what do you think the most common HHW would be? (my guess is LRM's and RL's) ... I would think the least common would be any type of energy weapon ... a single ER ML would be a 6 ton HHW, a regular ML would still be 4 tons. hmmm the Light PPC would be 8 tons, that I could use until I remember no torso/arm weapons till said hand weapon is dropped.
I think missiles and ballistic weapons are the best for HHW, as you suggested. Putting energy weapons in the HHW requires single heat sinks to dissipate the heat they generate, so your already limited payload space gets eaten up pretty quickly. The reason I typically use Rocket Launchers is that they're one shot weapons that you can fire and then drop the HHW to get your 'Mechs "real guns" into the fight pretty quickly. They also provide a pretty good punch for the weight.

That aside, I can see a HHW that uses an MML of some sort with a combined LRM/SRM ammunition load. That way you could pepper an enemy with a few shots here and there. Not really a main gun, but still nice for fast movers with limited range weapons like pulse lasers. Maybe the Fireball or Spider/Venom series?

Edit: Oh! I just realized you could take the 100 ton IndustrialMech with TSM and use it to carry an MRM40, with ammo and armor. Use them for area saturation. Hilarity ensues.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 03 January 2013, 10:47:38
The HHW is for ranged weapons only. Physical weapons like Maces can't go into a HHW. (Unless you mean the HHW was being carried by a 'Mech with a Mace, in which case I just wet my pants.)

You can actually, though the rules a re a bit ambiguous on exact usage.

Quote
Tac Ops pg. 314

"Regardless of the total tonnage used, a Handheld Weapon may be constructed with a maximum of six heavy (vehicular-class) weapons or a single BattleMech
Melee weapon
, not counting ammunition and heat sinks"

That tells me that if you mount a handheld melee weapon, that is all that can be in the handheld.    However, page 316 implies that you can mount a mixture, it just destroys the guns if the melee weapon is ever used. 

Quote
Tac Ops pg. 316

Fixed-damage melee weapons (such
as Chainsaws) deliver damage as normal, but maintain the Handheld Weapons’ restriction that both hands are required for use. Any other, non-melee items mounted in a Handheld
mount used in a melee attack are destroyed on a successful physical attack using the Handheld Weapon, though the mount itself may be used for subsequent physical attacks. If a
Physical Attack Weapon (including all BattleMech Melee Weapons) is a Handheld weapon and used in a physical/melee attack, the special properties of such weapons (such as the
defense modes of a shield, the entangling attack of a whip, and so on), are ignored.


You can explicitly carry just a slab of armor and use it as a club/shield until it gets blown up.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: YingJanshi on 03 January 2013, 23:32:07
Quote
Quote
Tac Ops pg. 314

"Regardless of the total tonnage used, a Handheld Weapon may be constructed with a maximum of six heavy (vehicular-class) weapons or a single BattleMech
Melee weapon, not counting ammunition and heat sinks"

What, does that mean that 100 tonners can use Maces?  >:D  Wait...  #P
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: YingJanshi on 03 January 2013, 23:37:00
It does! It does! Ooooh I can have so much fun with this...   [drool] >:D >:D
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 04 January 2013, 03:05:40
And you can AES to offset the to-hit penalty or TSM so you can hold the thing in one hand, allowing you to use arm and torso mounted weapons with a forward arc
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 04 January 2013, 03:25:17
No, you have to use both hands when using HHWs.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 04 January 2013, 08:28:35
You can actually, though the rules a re a bit ambiguous on exact usage.

That tells me that if you mount a handheld melee weapon, that is all that can be in the handheld.    However, page 316 implies that you can mount a mixture, it just destroys the guns if the melee weapon is ever used. 


You can explicitly carry just a slab of armor and use it as a club/shield until it gets blown up.
Huh. Well you learn something new every day.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 10:10:00
It does! It does! Ooooh I can have so much fun with this...   [drool] >:D >:D

Sort of. 

There's an addendum -- all melee weapons basing their damage on tonnage lose their special abilities, and function as a club.
Quote
If using a Handheld weapon for a melee attack, use the standard club attack rules (see pp. 145-146, TW) for all damage based on tonnage. Fixed-damage melee weapons (such as Chainsaws) deliver damage as normal, but maintain the Handheld Weapons’ restriction that both hands are required for use. Any other, non-melee items mounted in a Handheld mount used in a melee attack are destroyed on a successful physical attack using the Handheld Weapon, though the mount itself may be used for subsequent physical attacks.

So, if my question (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,25793.0.html) is answered in the affirmative, you're better off just carrying a slab of armor instead of mounting a melee weapon.  It's got a 1/6 chance of intercepting any  arm hit.


The REAL use for handhelds would be on light units operating as special forces.

Say you get artillery support for a battle - give your Spider a handheld TAG unit .  Otherwise give him a dual RL-20  handheld to be used in a backstab attack, to be followed by his lasers.


I can also see mechs like my Megatherium (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20235.msg582747.html#msg582747) making use of only handhelds in Solaris.  It'd be an interesting showman's mech if piloted by a GOOD pilot (to offset the whopping +2 to PS rolls).  Alternatively the mech can go to Single heat sinks, drop two er medium lasers and two small lasers, and mount a lift hoist -- to be used as a sheath for your handheld, or to carry a second one.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 10:56:11
No, you have to use both hands when using HHWs.

What he said. NOTHING gets you around the two-hands/no firing relevant guns rule.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 11:11:17
What he said. NOTHING gets you around the two-hands/no firing relevant guns rule.

Right.  I'm pretty certain that is the case.  I just figured I'd throw that question in just in case.  I've seen several people on the board referencing dual handhelds @5% each, and could not find a place where CGL unequivocally stated this was illegal.   Most of those questions are just to clarify for everyone.


I mean, under the Cargo rules merely holding it prevents you from firing, and requires both hands.  Why would a handheld weapon be any different, when it explicitly states that they follow cargo rules?

Unfortunately the -3 MP from Cargo rules makes it so that only jump capable mechs can make any real use of handhelds.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 11:39:03
Unfortunately the -3 MP from Cargo rules makes it so that only jump capable mechs can make any real use of handhelds.

Page 216 of Total War is your friend. 8)

Quote from: Total War
Note that ‘Mechs suffer no movement penalties provided that they are carrying no more than 10% of their constructed weight (20% with active Triple-Strength Myomer).
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 11:53:11
Page 216 of Total War is your friend. 8)

Is that errata or something?

I bought the TW PDF last week.  That sentence is nowhere in it.  I'm glad that it is the case,  but it isn't in my copy.


page 261 -

Quote
’Mech Lifting Capabilities: In some situations, a
MechWarrior may want his machine to lift and carry a piece
of equipment. A ’Mech may not pick up another unit. Only
’Mechs with functioning hand actuators may pick up an object.
To pick up an object, a ’Mech must end its Movement Phase in
the same hex as the object, it must have an undamaged hand
actuator in both arms and it may make no weapon or physical
attacks that turn. A ’Mech can pick up objects weighing up to
ten percent of its tonnage (this is increased to 20 percent of
the ’Mech mounts operating Triple Strength Myomer, see p.
143). While the ’Mech is carrying the object, it cannot fi re any
arm or forward-fi ring torso-mounted weapons, make punching
or pushing attacks, use a club or make physical weapon
attacks, though it may charge, kick and execute death-fromabove
attacks. In addition, the ’Mech suff ers the limitations
described in Cargo Carriers, above.


and the Movement Penalties section -

Quote
Movement Penalties: Unlike cargo in a dedicated cargo
bay, a unit carrying external cargo must modify its movement.
Cargo weighing up to a quarter of the carrying unit’s weight
subtracts 3 from—or cuts in half, rounding down—the carrier’s
Walking/Cruising MP, whichever is less. A unit carrying
a load weighing more than a quarter of its own tonnage may
only move at half its Walking/Cruising MP (round down).
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 11:58:31
Odd, it's in my PDF, though mine is older. It's not anywhere on that page, or the next?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: DarkISI on 04 January 2013, 12:02:15
Nope, nowhere.
But the errata file also mentions no such change, so it seems to be an error. On what end, though... should there be something in the errata file or should the entry still be there... that would need to be cleared up.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 12:03:26
Odd, it's in my PDF, though mine is older. It's not anywhere on that page, or the next?

No.  The next page moves on to breakthrough scenarios.  I bought it through DriveThru;  maybe it's an older revision or something?


I've found a few  other oddities -- my Tac Ops has sections of the Handheld weapon text repeated, for instance.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 12:04:32
This sounds like a mystery. Follow me! I have a Giggins painted with pastel flowers for just this purpose!
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 12:12:37
I updated my question posted earlier, to reflect this indiscrepancy.

Depending upon what they rule, I'll make an errata request later.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Jim1701 on 04 January 2013, 12:20:31
My copy of TW is dated 7/11 and it includes the text regarding weight limits:

Quote from: pg. 261 of Total Warfare
’Mech lifting Capabilities: In some situations, a
MechWarrior may want his machine to lift and carry a piece
of equipment. A ’Mech may not pick up another unit. Only
’Mechs with functioning hand actuators may pick up an object.
To pick up an object, a ’Mech must end its Movement Phase in
the same hex as the object, it must have an undamaged hand
actuator in both arms and it may make no weapon or physical
attacks that turn. A ’Mech can pick up objects weighing up to
ten percent of its tonnage (this is increased to 20 percent of
the ’Mech mounts operating Triple Strength Myomer, see p.
143). While the ’Mech is carrying the object, it cannot fi re any
arm or forward-fi ring torso-mounted weapons, make punching
or pushing attacks, use a club or make physical weapon
attacks, though it may charge, kick and execute death-fromabove
attacks. In addition, the ’Mech suff ers the limitations
described in Cargo Carriers, above. Note that ‘Mechs suff er no
movement penalties provided that they are carrying no more
than 10% of their constructed weight (20% with active Triple-
Strength Myomer).

However, my original print copy does not contain this so any pdf's missing this text would be from the original printing.  Maybe Overdrive does not provide updates to pdf's like BattleCorps does?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 12:24:34
My copy of TW is dated 7/11 and it includes the text regarding weight limits:

However, my original print copy does not contain this so any pdf's missing this text would be from the original printing.  Maybe Overdrive does not provide updates to pdf's like BattleCorps does?

That really sucks.  They just lost my business.  BattleCorps it is from now on.

So all my brand new books are out of date maybe.  Great.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 12:32:36
Maybe. This may be an error in the PDF files somehow, or an error and they meant to update the file, or something else entirely. My advice would be to wait until you get the full story, then contact them. It may be a mixup.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: DarkISI on 04 January 2013, 12:33:41
My copy of TW is dated 7/11 and it includes the text regarding weight limits:

However, my original print copy does not contain this so any pdf's missing this text would be from the original printing.  Maybe Overdrive does not provide updates to pdf's like BattleCorps does?

They usually do and I just found the line in my PDF. Strange how the search function didn't find it.

Anusol, please look on page 7 for the following lines

Quote
Corrected Third Printing.
Second Printing by Catalyst Game Labs.

That's the most current PDF release.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 12:38:32
They usually do and I just found the line in my PDF. Strange how the search function didn't find it.

Anusol, please look on page 7 for the following lines

That's the most current PDF release.

Quote
Corrected Third Printing.
Second Printing by Catalyst Game Labs. Printed in Thailand.

That's there. 

The line isn't, however. 
Quote
’Mech Lifting Capabilities: In some situations, a
MechWarrior may want his machine to lift and carry a piece
of equipment. A ’Mech may not pick up another unit. Only
’Mechs with functioning hand actuators may pick up an object.
To pick up an object, a ’Mech must end its Movement Phase in
the same hex as the object, it must have an undamaged hand
actuator in both arms and it may make no weapon or physical
attacks that turn. A ’Mech can pick up objects weighing up to
ten percent of its tonnage (this is increased to 20 percent of
the ’Mech mounts operating Triple Strength Myomer, see p.
143). While the ’Mech is carrying the object, it cannot fi re any
arm or forward-fi ring torso-mounted weapons, make punching
or pushing attacks, use a club or make physical weapon
attacks, though it may charge, kick and execute death-fromabove
attacks. In addition, the ’Mech suff ers the limitations
described in Cargo Carriers, above.
Force Composition
Both sides start with an equal number of units.
Battle Value: If using the BV system,


Skips right over it.  weird.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 12:43:29
Very weird. And too neat to be a file error...
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 12:54:51
Very weird. And too neat to be a file error...

well, nice to know it is the case at least.  Now I'm off to build a cheap 5/8/5 55 ton omni with a head turret and leg spaces free, to make maximum use of handhelds in guerrilla ops.

I wonder what other subtle malfups are waiting for me.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 13:09:36
Found a 2nd pdf, titled CAT35001TWBattleCorps.pdf in the directory.

It DOES have the line, and notably the

Quote
Corrected Third Printing.
Second Printing by Catalyst Game Labs.

DOES NOT include the note about Thailand.

Why I got two versions of the same PDF I have no idea.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Xotl on 04 January 2013, 13:14:08
Interesting - the one I'm working off of does not have the printed in Thailand note, but otherwise has the same copyright notice.  I can't believe there's two versions of the same "third printing" out there.  Bleah.

I'll message Randall and see what can be done.

Does anyone have a hardcopy of the third printing?  If so, could you check to see if the note on p. 261 is in the hardback?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Jim1701 on 04 January 2013, 13:20:31
Quote from: pp 7 of Total Warfare
Corrected Third Printing.
Second Printing by Catalyst Game Labs.

Published by Catalyst Game Labs,
an imprint of InMediaRes Productions, LLC
PMB 202 • 303 91st Ave NE • E502 • Lake Stevens, WA 98258

Mine does not mention being printed in Thailand either.  Obviously a mix up occurred at some point.  Very strange.   ???
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Xotl on 04 January 2013, 13:24:12
Pardon the temporary hijack here: anuson, does the Thailand copy have "©2006-2011 The Topps Compnay, Inc." (complete with typo in "company")?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 13:26:34
The thailand PDF is about 560 kb bigger than the CAT35001 pdf.  I wonder what else is different?


Gimme a few minutes while I cut/paste ALL of the text into some text files and do an examdiff.


Pardon the temporary hijack here: anuson, does the Thailand copy have "©2006-2011 The Topps Compnay, Inc." (complate with typo in "company")?

A search for "Compnay" turns up nothing. Would you like me to share the pdf via dropbox and PM/email you the link?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Xotl on 04 January 2013, 13:39:33
If you wouldn't mind I'd appreciate that greatly.  PM me.

Thanks for your help on this.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Xotl on 04 January 2013, 14:07:56
Thanks for the file - I've figured it out.  When the third printing first came out it was accidentally a pre-release file that was being sold/offered, rather than the proper completed file.  That's since been corrected here on Catalyst's end some time ago, so I had forgotten about it, but this one you sent me has the same PDF annotations by Randall on pages 18 and 39 that the accidental pre-release had, so now I remember.

I'll take this up the chain and see about get the newer, proper file into the hands of DriveThru.

Feel free to return to your regularly scheduled handheld weapon chat. :)
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 14:28:57
So, after all this, we now DEFINITIVELY know that handhelds do not lower MP.  That's nice.


It also looks (LOOKS like a mech can go in with a pistol in one arm, and still fire weapons from the other, per Tac Ops pg. 95. Apparently it can carry 5% tonnage one handed, but can it fire one-handed?


I guess I should update my question.  Or maybe I shouldn't, since they're "researching" already?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Marwynn on 04 January 2013, 14:51:36
Hmm, 10% is still a fair amount. For Mediums it could be a pair of LRM5s or SRM4s with half a ton of ammo and armour. Load Thunders or Infernos in that, and you have some excellent and cheap versatility.

Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Jim1701 on 04 January 2013, 14:57:26
Yep, even a standard 20 tonner could pack a RL-20 and a half ton of armor with no worries.  You run up, shoot them in the back, club them over the back of the head and run away cackling like a madman.   :))
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 14:58:17
You run up, shoot them in the back, club them over the back of the head and run away cackling like a madman.   :))

Warfare, Stone-Age-dating style? I like it!
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 15:09:13
Yeah, a 50 tonner could carry a pair of iOS SRM-6s even, or a MML-5 with two tons of ammo.

Best just to go with 3 RL-20s and a RL-10 though.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Marwynn on 04 January 2013, 15:15:52
I was thinking of say giving a Hunchie 4G some LRM5s and half a ton of ammo/armour. It's not going to kill anything without some really lucky hits, but neither is it completely defenseless. That's 6 shots total for the LRM5s, not too shabby.

Wait, are HHWs later, post 3050 tech?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Jim1701 on 04 January 2013, 15:25:37
Yeah, a 50 tonner could carry a pair of iOS SRM-6s even, or a MML-5 with two tons of ammo.

Best just to go with 3 RL-20s and a RL-10 though.

A medium should have some decent weaponry generally speaking.  I don't think I would want to tie up my arm and torso weapons for an extended period of time.  Just give me something that gives me one really good opening round punch.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 15:26:38
Best just to go with 3 RL-20s and a RL-10 though.

It's situational. If I were forced to send a lance of Stingers to skirmish or delay an oncoming force expected to contain conventional units, I'd issue them iOS-LRM-5s loaded with T-Aug ammo. Lay the minefields in a good spot, and you either force them to go around(possibly through very hindering terrain), or force motive crits(good chance of REALLY slowing them down. Then I'd have them fall back to whatever pack mule accompanied them and have them pick up an RL handheld, for a single harassing pass as the remainder, going for even more motive crits.

Then they'd be under orders to retreat. Mission's probably accomplished, or they can't do much more without near-suicidal tactics.

Another idea(that actually got published as a handheld for the Axeman) would be a Fluid Gun handheld with a single ton of ammo. When an enemy approaches a city you're holding, break out the super soakers and have 'mechs lay down oil slicks while falling back to ambush positions. You'll have enemy 'mechs literally sliding right into your traps, and without having to strip guns from your 'mechs for the squirters. }:)

Long story short: I don't see handhelds as adding firepower, I see them as adding flexibility and tricks up your sleeve. Much like OmniMechs, they make your force unpredictable, so your enemy can never know what you're going to use against him, even if his intel tells him exactly what 'mechs you have.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 15:32:18
I was thinking of say giving a Hunchie 4G some LRM5s and half a ton of ammo/armour. It's not going to kill anything without some really lucky hits, but neither is it completely defenseless. That's 6 shots total for the LRM5s, not too shabby.

Wait, are HHWs later, post 3050 tech?

It states they've been in development for the majority of the time since the Terran Hegemony, so no worries there.


There isn't really a need for armor unless you plan to hold on to it for a while;  there is only a 1/6 chance for each ARM HIT that it gets damaged after all.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 15:43:11
It's situational. If I were forced to send a lance of Stingers to skirmish or delay an oncoming force expected to contain conventional units, I'd issue them iOS-LRM-5s loaded with T-Aug ammo. Lay the minefields in a good spot, and you either force them to go around(possibly through very hindering terrain), or force motive crits(good chance of REALLY slowing them down. Then I'd have them fall back to whatever pack mule accompanied them and have them pick up an RL handheld, for a single harassing pass as the remainder, going for even more motive crits.

Then they'd be under orders to retreat. Mission's probably accomplished, or they can't do much more without near-suicidal tactics.

Another idea(that actually got published as a handheld for the Axeman) would be a Fluid Gun handheld with a single ton of ammo. When an enemy approaches a city you're holding, break out the super soakers and have 'mechs lay down oil slicks while falling back to ambush positions. You'll have enemy 'mechs literally sliding right into your traps, and without having to strip guns from your 'mechs for the squirters. }:)

Long story short: I don't see handhelds as adding firepower, I see them as adding flexibility and tricks up your sleeve. Much like OmniMechs, they make your force unpredictable, so your enemy can never know what you're going to use against him, even if his intel tells him exactly what 'mechs you have.

I didn't think about augmented thunders versus conventional armor.  That and the slickers are great ideas.  Tag.  Flak LACs for impromptu anti-air.
Flamer/plasma rifles for city destruction, anti-infantry attacks, and forestry work.

LOTS of uses for Industrial mechs too. 

Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 15:50:56
I didn't think about augmented thunders versus conventional mechs.

I actually meant against tanks. They do NOT like minefields. There's not much an Alacorn or Demolisher can do to your force if someone runs out real quick and uses a minefield to park it out of range. Considering the heavy emphasis on combined arms these days, you can deprive an enemy of a lot of firepower by stopping/delaying his tanks.

I do like the idea of a flak LAC, that's not bad.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 16:42:35
I actually meant against tanks. They do NOT like minefields. There's not much an Alacorn or Demolisher can do to your force if someone runs out real quick and uses a minefield to park it out of range. Considering the heavy emphasis on combined arms these days, you can deprive an enemy of a lot of firepower by stopping/delaying his tanks.

I do like the idea of a flak LAC, that's not bad.

Yeah.  typo on my part.

Also -- a swarm of 30 tonners with fluid guns carrying acid ammo.  Hell, a handheld is a GREAT option for a Javelin in every way.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Jim1701 on 04 January 2013, 17:08:37
It occurs to me that an armory of handheld "rifles" would be a great way to instantly arm industrial mechs in an emergency.  It loses a little in strict game terms but it would make an AWESOME fluff piece. 
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 17:13:30
The trick is finding Workmechs with two hands. Only the loadermechs come to mind, though you could indeed field a bajillion of them for dirt cheap.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Jim1701 on 04 January 2013, 17:17:48
The trick is finding Workmechs with two hands. Only the loadermechs come to mind, though you could indeed field a bajillion of them for dirt cheap.

Well I was thinking spaceport when I had the idea...
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 17:25:38
Works for me. O0

Heck, I could actually see this being standard procedure in some places, such as spaceports or rail yards owned by a defense corporation that cannot afford true Battlemechs. Workmechs go about their day, but in case of attack, they run to dedicated sheds that have handheld weapons hidden inside. MinuteMechs! :D
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 17:26:52
Well I was thinking spaceport when I had the idea...

Honestly, it would be a good idea for small military bases too.  Keep a stock of several types of rifle ready for short-notice conflicts, or for types of conflict your force of mechs is normally ill equipped for.


Neat idea for a slave revolt in the periphery as well...  coordinate all the loader mechs at the air port to pull rifles at the correct  time, when the Great Leader is on the airstrip or something...
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 17:27:42
Not bad...I might steal that for a scenario set in Marian space.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 04 January 2013, 17:35:21
I'm one of the people who's said stuff about the 5% rule, and yes I was thinking TacOps (pg. 92 in my version), the way I see it is that if the HH is light enough to be carried one handed it can be fired one handed

LoaderMechs are a good idea, them having ITSM is very likely to, nice

As for the Axman-6X, worst platform to carry handhelds that I know of
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 04 January 2013, 18:00:31
  HERE (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,25817.msg584094.html#msg584094)  I have tried to make an Omni geared toward always using handhelds.

Any critiques for the odd ball design would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 January 2013, 18:05:00
I'm one of the people who's said stuff about the 5% rule, and yes I was thinking TacOps (pg. 92 in my version), the way I see it is that if the HH is light enough to be carried one handed it can be fired one handed

There's a vast difference between picking up a small object one-handed, and holding, aiming, and firing a weapon. Sure, humans can sometimes do it, but 'mechs are not humans, despite the resemblance. I suspect that's why the Handheld rules are very clear on requiring two hands, and blocking all arm and torso guns. I'm not seeing any exception to this in the Picking Up Objects rules. Sure, you can pick up a sufficiently small Handheld with one hand, but you need two hands to carry it as anything other than bulk cargo.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: wellspring on 04 January 2013, 18:27:23
The MinuteMech idea has a high coolness factor, but I ought to point out that using Omni tech you can get weapons onto your mech anyway with almost as much ease. Now if you don't have omnis, that's a different story.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 04 January 2013, 18:46:42
I'm pretty sure that if you're in a situation where you think of using HHW armed Loadermechs as a security force, it's a fairly safe assumption that omnimechs are out of the question.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Maingunnery on 04 January 2013, 19:01:46
HHW seem fairly limited ... I get that a LAM can't really keep one through transformation, but what about just in Airmech or Mech modes?
What about storing a HHW in a cargo-bay or bomb-bay?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: wellspring on 04 January 2013, 19:32:52
I'm pretty sure that if you're in a situation where you think of using HHW armed Loadermechs as a security force, it's a fairly safe assumption that omnimechs are out of the question.

Actually Omni industrialmechs and vehicles make a great deal of sense, especially for a mobile force or a remote colony, both of who need to minimize their logistical footprints. In addition to the support/maintenance advantages, you need fewer chasses to do the same number of things.

A remote colony that gets visited very rarely by merchant dropships might benefit from being able to temporarily convert a couple of its agromechs/constructionmechs into LoaderMechs, then switch them back once the merchants are gone. A forestry Mech, once it clears the land for a farm, can switch to construction duties during the growing season, and then switch to harvesting in the fall for a few weeks, before going back to construction duties. For a +25% price increase, you can use one Mech where you might have used several specialists.

Then slap on a few weapons pods and you're a combat mech... Handheld weapons give you a quick boost to your firepower, or let you arm yourself if they swoop in before you can reconfigure.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 04 January 2013, 19:36:39
Great.

Now convince a factory that there's a large enough market to produce such a thing.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 05 January 2013, 01:17:50
Great.

Now convince a factory that there's a large enough market to produce such a thing.
Considering that there's a cannon Omni-Train and that trains pretty much that sort of ability in the real world by changing carriages I can see it happening.

Plus it's not so much convincing the factory, but rather a state ordering it, and that I can see happening, Omni version of the J-27 anyone? (Only vehicle able to carry DHS's)
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Marwynn on 05 January 2013, 18:20:35
Great.

Now convince a factory that there's a large enough market to produce such a thing.

With one standardized chassis you can focus on selling podded components and increase sales beyond the initial purchase and maintenance agreements. You establish a wide enough base and you can create your own market for pods--those clients you once had who only wanted LoaderMechs might purchase the FireMech loadouts as well.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: brotherelf on 06 January 2013, 05:46:29
Shame you can't put an HGR in, that plus four shots and one ton of armor would be perfect for a disposable 'hit and flee' unit that's not supposed to do more than be a nasty surprise.

Hmmm... a very brief look doesn't reveal anything to me that would prevent a HHW-ArrowIV, or Sniper-Cannon  >:D
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 06 January 2013, 06:29:14
Nothing with location restrictions~
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Jim1701 on 06 January 2013, 18:32:39
With one standardized chassis you can focus on selling podded components and increase sales beyond the initial purchase and maintenance agreements. You establish a wide enough base and you can create your own market for pods--those clients you once had who only wanted LoaderMechs might purchase the FireMech loadouts as well.

Omni's are expensive compared to a standard chassis.  Unlike a military organization cost is going to be the number one concern for a civilian outfit.  If I needed 20 loadermechs I MIGHT buy one as an omni model but I'm not going to buy more than that. 
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: YingJanshi on 06 January 2013, 22:30:39
Hmmm... a very brief look doesn't reveal anything to me that would prevent a HHW-ArrowIV, or Sniper-Cannon  >:D


Nothing as long as you have a Superheavy 'Mech to carry the heavy beast.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: wellspring on 06 January 2013, 22:31:03
Omni's are expensive compared to a standard chassis.  Unlike a military organization cost is going to be the number one concern for a civilian outfit.  If I needed 20 loadermechs I MIGHT buy one as an omni model but I'm not going to buy more than that.

Put it another way. Is a 20% discount enough to justify buying four times as many specialized mechs as one general purpose mech that can be reconfigured to do many jobs at many times, rather than spending most of its time sitting unused in a warehouse?

Plus 25% to the purchase price is very, very minor when you consider the overall reduction in the Total Cost of Ownership. PLUS, your Mech can be reconfigured to be used in many situations rather than the one specialist role it was built for. That one do-all device replaces several specialist machines that you would otherwise have had to buy and support separately. So cost actually goes down.

This has come up a few times in the Clans forum. The Clan warrior caste totally missed the boat about the value of Omni tech. They think they're saving resources reserving Omnis to front line military Mechs, but in reality they could have transitioned their entire vehicle fleets over to Omni, military and civilian, and in so doing greatly cut their operating expenses. It's a false economy to think you're saving money doing it the hard way. Which is a nice touch on the part of the writers, IMO, because this happens all the time in history.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 06 January 2013, 22:41:19
That assumes that the purchaser has more than one general use for the mech in the first place.  There's not too much call for a forestry mech at a dropship port, or a heavy duty construction mech on a family farm (something that can be rigged for light construction work to assist in raising a barn, sure, but not something you'd use for building a skyscraper).

And for those agencies that use multiple types of industrialmechs, when it comes to buying 20 standard mechs vs 15 omnis, maybe they want 20 mechs for a reason, even if they're going 10 and 10 of two different types because they can run that many mechs simultaneously.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: wellspring on 06 January 2013, 23:33:35
That assumes that the purchaser has more than one general use for the mech in the first place.  There's not too much call for a forestry mech at a dropship port, or a heavy duty construction mech on a family farm (something that can be rigged for light construction work to assist in raising a barn, sure, but not something you'd use for building a skyscraper).

In which case you'll see the farmer renting out his HarvestMech at the DropShip port or with a construction company when he's not using it to harvest. A nice side source of income.

(Or, more likely, vice versa, where the farmer rents buys the harvest configuration pods and rents the Mech at harvest time. He pays a much lower price than if he'd owned it, and doesn't have to pay maintenance during the 10-11 months per year when it's sitting in the barn collecting dust.) 

And for those agencies that use multiple types of industrialmechs, when it comes to buying 20 standard mechs vs 15 omnis, maybe they want 20 mechs for a reason, even if they're going 10 and 10 of two different types because they can run that many mechs simultaneously.

Really, it's about buying 10 Omnis or 30+ specialized mechs. For construction, for example, I can use a demolitions config, then switch to a site prep config as I dig out the foundation, then go to a cement mixer (or plascrete or whatever) and pour the foundation and then finally switch to a version with lift hoists, spot welders, and rivet guns for construction of the new building. I can even walk my mech out in the morning with cargo containers full of materials, then reconfigure on-site to assemble those materials.

Every configuration is another chassis, fusion drive, cockpit, mechwarrior and tech team that you don't have to pay for separately. And perhaps you're right that sometimes you'll need every specialty in the same numbers and at the same time. And, let's add, with no fluctuation in demand. Most of the time, especially on a small colony, none of that be the case, but it's certainly possible.

Even in that case, when the lift hoist is down for repairs, then so is your IndustrialMech. Meanwhile, when my Omni has the same problem, I swap out a spare pod and am back up and running in minutes. I also get the benefits of standardization in my spare parts stores, not modeled in StratOps but a realistic problem.

At let's say 5 million per mech, I pay 62.5 million for 10 omnis (plus config equipment), rather than 200 million on 40 specialized mechs. Then, I'll save on the 30 extra mechwarriors I don't have to hire, 30 techs (and 180 asTechs) that I don't have to pay, thirty times the monthly spare parts cost that I don't have to pay, savings I'll see year in and year out. And I take fewer revenue hits due to machine downtime. Any of that is well worth 12.5 million c-bills.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 07 January 2013, 00:30:49
In a lot of cases were you see people using 'Mechs in verse it doesn't make sense. You don't need a 50ft robot to herd cattle, and a quad would be useful in clear cutting in rough terrain, but really they're using them because of a universe wide fixation on 'Mechs, not because it's the best tool for the job
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 January 2013, 01:13:32
snip
Quote

You know, I had a big rebuttal for all your points, but what's the point?  We're just arguing in circles here.  Want to just drop the subject?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 07 January 2013, 08:47:12
Works for me. O0

Heck, I could actually see this being standard procedure in some places, such as spaceports or rail yards owned by a defense corporation that cannot afford true Battlemechs. Workmechs go about their day, but in case of attack, they run to dedicated sheds that have handheld weapons hidden inside. MinuteMechs! :D
Well I was thinking spaceport when I had the idea...

Didn't the Bucklands militia try this during the Falcon Incursion of 3058? yes, OTP: Falcon Incursion, p. 20. In a straight up fight, they got absolutely hammered. So maybe using them just as fire support units (LRM) or anti-Elemental units would be a much better idea.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: wellspring on 07 January 2013, 09:48:50
You know, I had a big rebuttal for all your points, but what's the point?  We're just arguing in circles here.  Want to just drop the subject?

Sure, let's get back to HHWs.

Before this thread, my vision of a HHW was a laser gun, and it didn't seem very useful. Now, I'm thinking a low-ammo, high-damage missile pack. Huge nova potential--- you blow out the ammo, then drop it and switch to your regular weapons. Basically use it to add some bracket fire potential-- a short-ranged Mech grabs an LRM HHW, while a ranged support mech might keep an SRM HHW at his feet in case an enemy slips through the screen in front.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 07 January 2013, 10:45:39
Sure, let's get back to HHWs.

Before this thread, my vision of a HHW was a laser gun, and it didn't seem very useful. Now, I'm thinking a low-ammo, high-damage missile pack. Huge nova potential--- you blow out the ammo, then drop it and switch to your regular weapons. Basically use it to add some bracket fire potential-- a short-ranged Mech grabs an LRM HHW, while a ranged support mech might keep an SRM HHW at his feet in case an enemy slips through the screen in front.

Uses list so far:


What else?

have your strike or battle lances carry packs of (Extended?) LRMs to be used with indirect fire spotted by your scout lance as they close?

Flamer/machine gun combos for anti infantry and city fighting?

Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 07 January 2013, 10:56:33
Uses list so far:

  • Missilies to supplement bracket failings
  • Burst Rocket Launchers for backstabbing with lightly armed fast mechs
  • Specialty defense rifles kept at a fortified installation, allowing even your brawler mechs to function as anti-air, etc
  • Rapidly arming a force of noncombatant mecha

What else?

have your strike or battle lances carry packs of (Extended?) LRMs to be used with indirect fire spotted by your scout lance as they close?

Flamer/machine gun combos for anti infantry and city fighting?
Adding firepower to an ambush.
Deploying specialty munitions like Thunders, Mine Clearance missiles, etc.

Peacetime: Fluid Gun loaded with fire suppressant for firefighting.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: wellspring on 07 January 2013, 10:59:10
Don't forget LAM weapons supplements for commando missions. Burst-fire for maximizing damage, then drop the weapon prior to transforming and bugging out.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 07 January 2013, 11:01:51
Flamer/machine gun combos for anti infantry and city fighting?

Not a fan of this idea, really. Unless you know you're going to be facing an enemy that is roughly 90% infantry, losing the use of your heavy weapons doesn't seem like a good tradeoff. If you do go this route, remember to NEVER use them in a city. Unless the enemy infantry is lethally stupid, MGs and Flamers are useless against them in there. Only take this if you expect to face a lot of infantry, but don't expect any of them to enter buildings.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 07 January 2013, 11:06:16
Not a fan of this idea, really. Unless you know you're going to be facing an enemy that is roughly 90% infantry, losing the use of your heavy weapons doesn't seem like a good tradeoff. If you do go this route, remember to NEVER use them in a city. Unless the enemy infantry is lethally stupid, MGs and Flamers are useless against them in there. Only take this if you expect to face a lot of infantry, but don't expect any of them to enter buildings.

I was picturing a horde of spiders burning the city down, really.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 07 January 2013, 11:08:36
That works. >:D

Though if I'm going to burn a city to the ground, I'll use air-dropped Inferno bombs, and use said Spiders to mow down the fleeing survivors. Either way, there's nothing that'll convince me to send any ground forces into a city I don't intend to leave standing.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: wellspring on 07 January 2013, 11:14:20
That works. >:D

Though if I'm going to burn a city to the ground, I'll use air-dropped Inferno bombs, and use said Spiders to mow down the fleeing survivors. Either way, there's nothing that'll convince me to send any ground forces into a city I don't intend to leave standing.

I'm still waiting for the bat-bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb).
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 07 January 2013, 11:15:05
That works. >:D

Though if I'm going to burn a city to the ground, I'll use air-dropped Inferno bombs, and use said Spiders to mow down the fleeing survivors. Either way, there's nothing that'll convince me to send any ground forces into a city I don't intend to leave standing.

Good point.  My lust to terrorize the populace in person overcame my sanity it appears.



Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Jim1701 on 07 January 2013, 11:23:44
Really, it's about buying 10 Omnis or 30+ specialized mechs. For construction, for example, I can use a demolitions config, then switch to a site prep config as I dig out the foundation, then go to a cement mixer (or plascrete or whatever) and pour the foundation and then finally switch to a version with lift hoists, spot welders, and rivet guns for construction of the new building. I can even walk my mech out in the morning with cargo containers full of materials, then reconfigure on-site to assemble those materials.

No, it's about needing 30 mechs to do 30 jobs all at the same time.  I have a deadline to meet and don't have time to wait from those 10 omni's to finish task A, downtime while they are reconfigured for task B, finish task B, downtime to reconfigure for task C and then finish task C. 

Military forces like omni's because cost is a secondary factor in their planning.  They have a much more open ended mission and flexibility beats economy (assuming said military can afford the expense anyway) but they will still buy 30 omnis to replace 30 standard mechs, not 10. 
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 07 January 2013, 11:37:51
Not a fan of this idea, really. Unless you know you're going to be facing an enemy that is roughly 90% infantry, losing the use of your heavy weapons doesn't seem like a good tradeoff. If you do go this route, remember to NEVER use them in a city. Unless the enemy infantry is lethally stupid, MGs and Flamers are useless against them in there. Only take this if you expect to face a lot of infantry, but don't expect any of them to enter buildings.
Well, you cant use the HHW's at the same time as your normal guns, but is anything keeping you from 'stowing' it, and just carrying it in your hands like any other cargo?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 January 2013, 11:40:21
Aside from the lack of a lift hoist for carrying it on most mechs?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 07 January 2013, 11:41:34
You can carry it like cargo, sure. Not sure what the firing restrictions are there, or if there's anything you need to do to transfer it from 'cargo' to 'handheld'.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 07 January 2013, 11:56:20
Well, you cant use the HHW's at the same time as your normal guns, but is anything keeping you from 'stowing' it, and just carrying it in your hands like any other cargo?

We're waiting on an answer for that. 

You could just mount a 3 ton lift hoist in the torso, and call it a holster though.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Jim1701 on 07 January 2013, 12:09:01
Yes, the cargo carrying rules really don't say anything about the affect of carrying "cargo" has on firing weapons.  I would think there would still have to be some sort of interference. 
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 07 January 2013, 12:14:13
Yes, the cargo carrying rules really don't say anything about the affect of carrying "cargo" has on firing weapons.  I would think there would still have to be some sort of interference.

Well, in my version, it does say that you cannot fire torso or arm mounted weapons when carrying cargo.

Per Tac Ops 95, one can carry 5% weight in one hand, and still retain the ability to fire from the other arm.

Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: wellspring on 07 January 2013, 14:48:00
I've started a new thread (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,25896.0.html) in the House Rules forum for anyone who wants to post some designs based on this conversation. Anusol has another thread for HHW-oriented Mechs as well.

Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: FedComGirl on 07 January 2013, 15:11:22
In which case you'll see the farmer renting out his HarvestMech at the DropShip port or with a construction company when he's not using it to harvest. A nice side source of income.

(Or, more likely, vice versa, where the farmer rents buys the harvest configuration pods and rents the Mech at harvest time. He pays a much lower price than if he'd owned it, and doesn't have to pay maintenance during the 10-11 months per year when it's sitting in the barn collecting dust.) 

Problem is if even a good number of Farmers are renting there's liable to be a waiting list come harvest time, unless the rental company has a lot of mechs. When the demand lessens they'd be sitting in the warehouse.

Also, don't a lot of farmers rotate their crops so they always have something needing planting or harvesting?


Quote
Really, it's about buying 10 Omnis or 30+ specialized mechs. For construction, for example, I can use a demolitions config, then switch to a site prep config as I dig out the foundation, then go to a cement mixer (or plascrete or whatever) and pour the foundation and then finally switch to a version with lift hoists, spot welders, and rivet guns for construction of the new building. I can even walk my mech out in the morning with cargo containers full of materials, then reconfigure on-site to assemble those materials.

Every configuration is another chassis, fusion drive, cockpit, mechwarrior and tech team that you don't have to pay for separately. And perhaps you're right that sometimes you'll need every specialty in the same numbers and at the same time. And, let's add, with no fluctuation in demand. Most of the time, especially on a small colony, none of that be the case, but it's certainly possible.

Even in that case, when the lift hoist is down for repairs, then so is your IndustrialMech. Meanwhile, when my Omni has the same problem, I swap out a spare pod and am back up and running in minutes. I also get the benefits of standardization in my spare parts stores, not modeled in StratOps but a realistic problem.

At let's say 5 million per mech, I pay 62.5 million for 10 omnis (plus config equipment), rather than 200 million on 40 specialized mechs. Then, I'll save on the 30 extra mechwarriors I don't have to hire, 30 techs (and 180 asTechs) that I don't have to pay, thirty times the monthly spare parts cost that I don't have to pay, savings I'll see year in and year out. And I take fewer revenue hits due to machine downtime. Any of that is well worth 12.5 million c-bills.

This is where renting would be good. Why have a loader sitting around when you need a a digger? You don't. You rent the one then the other. Omnis are great since you'd only need one but you'd still probable rent the omni pods.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: ColBosch on 07 January 2013, 17:04:11
What about storing a HHW in a cargo-bay or bomb-bay?

LAM Bomb Bays can only be used for items that can be mounted on conventional hardpoints. I believe there is such a thing as cargo pods, so it's possible, but you wouldn't have a stowed HHW but instead a bit of cargo that would need to be unpacked before use. This might be useful, but I'd think that you'd be better off just using that weight and space for built-in weapons and armor.

Sorry, your Veritech analogues will need to find another solution. ;)
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Maingunnery on 07 January 2013, 17:06:58
LAM Bomb Bays can only be used for items that can be mounted on conventional hardpoints.
Rockets can be mounted on conventional hardpoints.

Quote
I believe there is such a thing as cargo pods, so it's possible, but you wouldn't have a stowed HHW but instead a bit of cargo that would need to be unpacked before use. This might be useful, but I'd think that you'd be better off just using that weight and space for built-in weapons and armor.

Sorry, your Veritech analogues will need to find another solution. ;)
Improved Bomb-bays?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 07 January 2013, 17:57:00
You guys forgot about artillery as one of the options for HHW's, you shouldn't bet needing that at the same time as needing to fire your normal weapons

Also with a little imagination you can make a proton pack, PPC handheld with heat sinks in a back pack
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 January 2013, 18:01:02
Even an Atlas with TSM couldn't carry an artillery piece bigger than a Thumper or Arrow IV.  A hand-held TAG might be somewhat useful for a light mech like a Dart, Spider, or Fireball, though.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: ColBosch on 07 January 2013, 18:14:34
Rockets can be mounted on conventional hardpoints.

Yes, but if you mount them in a handheld weapon pod, then it's the latter.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: YingJanshi on 07 January 2013, 18:37:55
Hey so Hand-Held melee weapons lose special abilities and are treated as clubs. Sooo, do they do their normal damage or only the standard clubbing damage?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 07 January 2013, 18:42:25
Clubbing damage only. Doubled vs baby seals.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: wellspring on 07 January 2013, 18:56:26
Hey so Hand-Held melee weapons lose special abilities and are treated as clubs. Sooo, do they do their normal damage or only the standard clubbing damage?

Quote from: "TacOps, pg 316
If using a Handheld weapon for a melee attack, use the standard club attack rules (see pp. 145-146, TW) for all damage based on tonnage. Fixed-damage melee weapons (such as Chainsaws) deliver damage as normal, but maintain the Handheld Weapons’ restriction that both hands are required for use.

And actually my copy of TO has that passage twice in two successive paragraphs. Looks like it requires an errata post.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: YingJanshi on 07 January 2013, 19:01:46
I was going off the 3.1 errata pdf. Sorry I don't have it with me at the moment so I can't quote from it.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 08 January 2013, 08:05:29
Clubbing damage only. Doubled vs baby seals.
Boo.

Though a HHW with a narc pod might be nice for faster units. Hit them with the pod and let your missile boats bring on the fun.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 08 January 2013, 08:56:24
Aside from the lack of a lift hoist for carrying it on most mechs?
If you have working hand actuators, you can carry up to 10% of a mechs' weight in cargo in them (TW p.261). Lift Hoists just increase the weight they can lift (TW p.136)

Of course, rereading that particular section reminds me that mechs carrying cargo in their hands cant use torso or arm mounted weaponry anyways.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 08 January 2013, 10:20:40
Though a HHW with a narc pod might be nice for faster units. Hit them with the pod and let your missile boats bring on the fun.

This is a nice idea. 25 tonners and up can carry an iOS NARC, and 40 tonners and up can carry a regular one with a ton of ammo. Sounds like a good way to make an all-3025 force much more effective... O0
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Fletch on 08 January 2013, 21:46:51
Caveat - I understand that art doesn't trump rules and the use of logic kills cat girls.....

but regardless....

I don't understand why a mech carry a HHW in one hand has to give up the ability to fire torso and other arm weapons.  For a mech carrying a HHW that requires both hands, that does makes sense.

Then you start to think that if a mech firing his right arm weapons to the left of the front arc and the left arm weapon to the right of the front arc the cross over would interfere with the firing of Torso weapons....

my head hurts, back to work.....
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 08 January 2013, 21:59:01
It doesn't Fletch, it only gives up the ability to fire weapons in the arm holding the HH
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 08 January 2013, 22:38:34
It doesn't Fletch, it only gives up the ability to fire weapons in the arm holding the HH

Best case it gives up torsos and one arm. Worst both arms and all torsos.

This is an ambiguous case now. See tac ops pg. 92 IIRC for single hand cargo, and tw 261 for normal cargo restrictions.

Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 08 January 2013, 23:38:21
I don't understand why a mech carry a HHW in one hand has to give up the ability to fire torso and other arm weapons.  For a mech carrying a HHW that requires both hands, that does makes sense.

The reason this makes sense is that ALL HHWs require both hands. One-handed HHWs violate the rules, which is why they don't make much sense within the rules.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 09 January 2013, 09:42:40
This is a nice idea. 25 tonners and up can carry an iOS NARC, and 40 tonners and up can carry a regular one with a ton of ammo. Sounds like a good way to make an all-3025 force much more effective... O0
Of course there's the reverse: A HHW containing AMS systems and ammo. Or a Laser AMS and heat sinks.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Weirdo on 09 January 2013, 10:23:58
Not sure if tying up your arms/torso for just an AMS or two is worth it, but if you really fear missiles, then feel free...
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 09 January 2013, 10:39:43
Not sure if tying up your arms/torso for just an AMS or two is worth it, but if you really fear missiles, then feel free...

If AMS could fire at missile volleys targeted at others, or shoot down Arrow IV or Sub-Capitol missiles, I can see this working.  House rule though.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Jim1701 on 09 January 2013, 12:51:14
Not sure if tying up your arms/torso for just an AMS or two is worth it, but if you really fear missiles, then feel free...

A 50 tonner can carry a HHW with 6 AMS, 1t ammo and a ton of armor.  If you are a moderately fast to average speed brawler with a 9-hex (or less) bubble of doom this could come in really handy for those guys that love to spam the LRM 5's.  LRM Carrier enthusiasts wouldn't like it much either for that matter.   >:D
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 09 January 2013, 15:47:54
A 50 tonner can carry a HHW with 6 AMS, 1t ammo and a ton of armor.  If you are a moderately fast to average speed brawler with a 9-hex (or less) bubble of doom this could come in really handy for those guys that love to spam the LRM 5's.  LRM Carrier enthusiasts wouldn't like it much either for that matter.   >:D
I might drop that to 4 AMS with 2 tons of ammo, but whatever works for you.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Jim1701 on 09 January 2013, 15:57:06
I might drop that to 4 AMS with 2 tons of ammo, but whatever works for you.

With 4 AMSI would make it 3-4 tons instead depending on how much I want to armor it.  For me, endurance is not a characteristic I am looking for in a HHW.  If I'm still unable to engage the enemy after 2-3 rounds and they are still able to lob LRM salvos at ME then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.   #P
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 28 January 2013, 09:05:56
Oh, and I just thought of another place: Underwater operations. Equip your units with HHWs that carry Long Range Torpedoes, and you've got something even submarines are going to be wary of.

For example, you remember in TRO3026's Neptune entry? Where a single Neptune took down a lance of Dragons? Imagine instead a lance of Panthers that had been equipped with LRT-5s. Still slow, still going to be subject to hull breaches, but able to inflict damage out to 21 hexes. Granted it takes four Panthers to equal the LRT-20 of the Neptune, but you're still able to respond. Given that the energy weapons lose ~1/3 of their effective range, this could have made all the difference to the DCMS unit.

Edit: I actually specced this out over here (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,25896.msg598571.html#msg598571).
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 28 January 2013, 09:07:07
With 4 AMSI would make it 3-4 tons instead depending on how much I want to armor it.  For me, endurance is not a characteristic I am looking for in a HHW.  If I'm still unable to engage the enemy after 2-3 rounds and they are still able to lob LRM salvos at ME then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.   #P
That's a good point. And I imagine you were thinking Hunchback when you said 50 tonner earlier. I approve!
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 28 January 2013, 09:59:35
Do we have a UMU equivalent of the disposable jump pack yet?
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 29 January 2013, 01:22:54
Do we have a UMU equivalent of the disposable jump pack yet?
Not that I am aware of, but it would be a very reasonable house rules, likely it's one of those things they didn't think to include
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: mbear on 29 January 2013, 08:29:03
Do we have a UMU equivalent of the disposable jump pack yet?
Not that I am aware of, but it would be a very reasonable house rules, likely it's one of those things they didn't think to include
IMHO it's more likely that such a device would have very limited appeal. Even UMU's are probably a tough sell except on worlds like Lackland. Disposable jump packs are useful any time you invade a world (dropping 'Mechs).
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: wellspring on 29 January 2013, 11:40:26
Not that I am aware of, but it would be a very reasonable house rules, likely it's one of those things they didn't think to include

IMHO it's more likely that such a device would have very limited appeal. Even UMU's are probably a tough sell except on worlds like Lackland. Disposable jump packs are useful any time you invade a world (dropping 'Mechs).

I agree, but I would think a disposable UMU would be more popular than the permanently fixed version.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: Vanadius on 29 January 2013, 11:42:48
Totally.  It would be really neat if UMUs could be mounted in a handheld.

That'd be really useful, and similar to the real world

(http://images.gizmag.com/hero/7148_23040720631_9.jpg)
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: CloaknDagger on 10 March 2013, 02:38:50
On the subject of handhelds:

A properly designed handheld weapon-utilizing mech will always be superior to other mechs in their weight class. Clan Mechs even more so than IS, and similarly, it works up to heavy mechs for clans and mediums for IS. Assaults and IS Heavies just can't cram their weapons into the 6 crits of a torso cockpited head and two legs.

Not only that, but handhelds can punch ABOVE their weight.

For example, using a clan chassis, put 2xERPPCs in the head with use of a torso cockpit. Now sink it to capacity, that being 32 when including movement.

Let's say that after whatever armor and speed and such, you have no more weight or crits.

You still have a good 4-6 tons in your handheld weapon now. That's CLRMs, ammo, and a ton of armor for it. And remember, it can be ANY type of ammo.

Heck, you can do with just one ton 3xMGs and 16 shots of MG ammo for the clans. <- This is how I got my MBT mech to work out.

Now that's not only a good extra bit of firepower, but because of the HH using Vee rules, YOU HAVE NO EXTRA HEAT.

You can fire the dual PPCs AND the LRMs. It's a win-win.

I even made a Mad Cat successor that beats it in every way based on this principle.

On canon mech designs, you're not so fortunate in most cases. Though if you can get the right omni, usually medium or light, you can do the same thing while dealing with the only 1 crit in the head from a regular cockpit.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 March 2013, 02:55:39
I don't know, man.  Torso mounted cockpits come with their own problems, like lack of ejection ability, increased vulnerability to heat, and the fact that the center torso is the place on a mech that's most likely to get shot, as opposed to the head which is the least likely place to get shot.  Plus, relying on handheld weapons like that seriously limits your firing arcs, since you can only fire them in the front arc.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 10 March 2013, 03:09:37
like lack of ejection ability and the fact that the center torso is the place on a mech that's most likely to get shot, as opposed to the head which is the least likely place to get shot.  Plus, relying on handheld weapons like that seriously limits your firing arcs, since you can only fire them in the front arc.
Outside of campaign play I fail to see why this is a problem
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 March 2013, 05:39:28
Lack of ejection ability is only one of the problems associated with Torso-Mounted Cockpits, though.  It's got plenty of other liabilities.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: ColBosch on 10 March 2013, 08:13:19
The chance of getting a TAC even under standard rules is a drawback. Not very likely, but it's happened.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: SCC on 10 March 2013, 15:32:57
OK, that makes sense, thanks Colbosch.

Things is but that TAC happens as frequently as a head hit and the chance of hitting the cockpit in the torso is less
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 March 2013, 16:27:59
But unless you use a Compact Gyro or Compact Engine, you're stuck without any ability to pad your CT at all, which means that any crit is going to be bad.
Title: Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
Post by: CloaknDagger on 10 March 2013, 17:49:20
There's options to deal with the drawbacks of Torso cockpits, but in general, it's not a big problem. Torso cockpits are balanced without handheld use after all.

As for the heat vulnerability, that's mitigated by the handheld actually, since handhelds mean you only need to worry about the firepower on the mech.