Register Register

Author Topic: Quick Strike Company v Company  (Read 4830 times)

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8359
  • Painted by Mastergunz
Quick Strike Company v Company
« on: 02 February 2011, 12:14:44 »
January 30th, 2011.  Gamer's Armory in Cary, NC.  The players had a choice of House Hiritsu versus Republic of the Sphere or Sword of Light versus Kestrel Grenadiers and went with SoL v KG.
1st Sword of Light:
  Lance 1: Tai-Sho TSH-7S, Grasshopper GHR-6K, Grand Dragon DRG-C, Jenner JR7-C2 (c3 network, 4 skill)
  Lance 2: Hatamoto-Hi HTM-CM,  Grand Dragon DRG-7K (Mark), Black Hawk-KU BHKU-OF, Spider SDR-7KC (c3 network, 4 skill)
  Lance 3: Awesome AWS-10KM, Thresher, Black Hawk/Nova B, Panther PNT-16K (no c3, 3 skill)
  Battle Armor Support: IS Standard Battle Armor [SRM] x2, Kanazuchi Assault Battle Armor (3 skill)
Lances 1 and 2 are together in a single c3 network.

1st Kestrel Grenadiers:
  Lance 1: Templar TLR1-O, Ajax Assault Tank Prime, Wolverine WVR-9D, Garm GRM-01B, Cavalier Battle Armor [SRM]
  Lance 2: Marauder II MAD-5A, Rifleman RFL-6D, Rommel Tank (Gauss), Valkyrie VLK-QD3, Cavalier Battle Armor [SRM]
  Lance 3: Longbow LGB-12C, Warhammer WHM-8D, Rommel Tank (Gauss), Blackjack BJ-3, Hauberk Battel Armor
All three lances are skill 3.

so the major question beginning the game was how much of an effect does c3 (using advanced rules) operate in quick strike.  The Kuritans have two fast spotters and a lot of range variants in the c3 lances.  but they need the c3 to make up for lower skills.  the non-c3 lance is more of a medium range brawler lance to break a charge?   both sides also have limited battle armor carrier capacity, they can each carry 2 of their 3 squads.
tonnage was equal at 300 tons each.  Kestrels had 243 Points to 214 of the Sword of Light, but that didn't include C3 costs.  BVs with c3 were 25,254 for the Kestrels versus 31,954 for the Sword of Light.

The terrain was from Gamer's Armory, a snowy plain broken up by rocky hills and scattered forests.  Both sides started outside of long range.  I wanted DC to have room to fall back after engaging if they wanted.  Ihadn't considered how that would extend the game time though.  Bth players also needed time to familarize themselves with their forces, so we got off to a very slow start.

Turn 1


The Sword of Light advanced in a loose line.   One C3 lance on each flank, the non c3 up the middle.


The Kestrel Grenadiers also advanced in line, with the left flank advancing faster.  The slowest units were advancing up the right flank.

Turn 2


The Sword of Light put a single Spider up a medium range from the lead Kestrels as a spotter.  The non c3 lance huddle in the middle behind a lot of cover, while the left flank c3 lance slowly moved up.  A single Grand Dragon took up cover on the right flank in an advance position behind total cover.


The Kestrel's left flank continued their fast advance.  The middle and right primarily took cover, thought the two Rommels advanced to support the left flank charge.

One of the Rommels died for moving up.  The Spider's c3 slave directed a ton of firepower that brought down the Rommel.  The Kestrels' return fire at the Spider was hasty (poor die rolls), and though it lost all its armor, the Spider survived its turn as point man.

Turn 3


The Spider had enough, and ducked behind full cover.  The two Grand Dragons jumped ahead as spotters, one meeting the Kestrels left flank charge literally head on.
The rest of the Sword of Light continued their slow advance.


The Kestrels' charge up the left flank halted at the Grand Dragon that jumped in their path.  The Ajax plowed to the middle of its woods in cover, while the assaults tried to keep partial cover or complete cover behind a forest.  The Battle Armor advanced to get some shots and spot for the Longbow.

This turn was painful for the Kestrels.  The Grand Dragon spotting on the Kestrel's left flank, along with the non c3 lance being in good firing position, lead to the entire line of three Kestrel mechs being destroyed.  The Kestrels did manage to take down both Grand Dragons, but was looking at two to one losses at this point and was terrified of the C3 network.

Turn 4


The Sword of Light charged their Jenner forward as a spotter, right in to the Kestrel's lone ECM carried by its Hauberk Battle Armor.  The rest of the Sword of Light continued to slowly advance.
the left flank of the Kestrels had dissolved in to chaos, as the Sword of Light Spider gleefully jumped behind line.  The Kestrels advanced the ajax and Marauder II to try and get better shots.

The Kestrels luck turned.  The Sword of Light began missing many shots, even easy shots, while the Kestrels' Longbow in particular continued smashing things.  The Sword of Light had found their own fear in the Longbow.

The Thresher and Hatamoto-Hi both died.  The Kestrels' lost the Hauberk Battle Armor.

At this point we had to call the game.  It was a close call, with the Kestrel's having lost as many BattleMechs as the Sword of Light, plus the Hauberk.
Sword of Light lost 18 + 13 + 31 + 16 = 78 points.
Kestrel Grenadiers lost 17 + 12 + 19 + 16 + 5 = 69.

Master Unit List - List of all canon units, faction availabilities, Alpha Strike unit cards, Battle Values
Combat Manual Lite series - Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots.

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7937
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #1 on: 02 February 2011, 12:25:52 »
Very nice !

I'm thinking the KG right flank was a bit timid for being the big boys, and if they had moved up earlier it would have been even worse for the SoL.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Vol Jbolaz

  • Guest
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #2 on: 02 February 2011, 13:01:02 »
I was leading the Kestrels.

First, thanks for running this, it was fun.  I like the Quick Strike rules.  I like being able to get in more than just a handful of mechs.  I remember 12 on 12 fights taking 12 hours.

I have to say, in hindsight, that I don't mind my strategy.  I don't often pick a gambit well, but I think this wasn't too bad.  I broke the group up by speed, wanting both flanks to get behind cover and let the DC forces get closer.   There may be better strategies, but I don't think mine was completely horrible.

I do admit that things would've gone much better if I had more familiarity with what the forces could actually do.  I didn't realize the indirect fire capabilities of the Longbow.  It didn't fire the first round, and it should've been in the middle, not on a flank.  I also didn't realize the Ajax was such a beast.  I put that thing on the flank hoping it would get in a few shots, but didn't really care about it.  I've never been a fan of tanks.  The Ajax changes that a bit.

As to the Rommel loss, I was surprised that it didn't lose any locomotion, it just died.  One reason I don't usually like tanks is because they are so fragile.  I don't care about the Rommel loss, but my views on tanks are changing, and I may use them more cautiously in the future.

The dice were killing me.  I missed many an eight or nine roll that would've had a notable impact on the outcome.  It wasn't until the turn we had to leave that things started to change.  And even then, there were two large DC 'mechs that survived only because there were still easy shots (multiple) that missed.

The Rifleman is a poor excuse for punching a clock.  The guys responsible for that need to stop making the Pintos of 'Mechs and move up to at least making K-Car 'Mechs.  I will say, the loss of the three 'Mechs in one go does underscore a difference in Quick Strike over traditional rules.

In traditional rules, targets are declared before fire resolution.  Meaning, more of the enemy may have committed to engaging the Rifleman since it was finally close enough to be a threat.  With Quick Strike, since it went down so fast, the enemy was able to spread its fire and take out two more targets that it might not have cared to engage.

The Jenner did make a mistake getting so close to the Haubrek.  It was trying to get close to the Longbow.  That was very fortunate for me.  The C3 was wrecking my forces.  Once the two Dragons were gone and the Jenner was blacked out, the tide started to turn.  If we had continued, I think the Kestrels had a fair chance of pushing the DC back since most of its larger assets were relatively untouched, and several DC assets were deep into structure.

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8359
  • Painted by Mastergunz
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #3 on: 02 February 2011, 13:08:48 »
Very nice !

I'm thinking the KG right flank was a bit timid for being the big boys, and if they had moved up earlier it would have been even worse for the SoL.

Knowing both forces better than the players did (they barely got a chance to know their own force before going in to battle), I would have played both sides differently.  As the SoL, I would have had the majority of the force look for good firing angles from long range, while using the spotters (Spider, Jenner, Grasshopper if necessary) to dance with the Kestrels trying to get one good LoS and avoiding any others.  The SoL player did close to that, but had the entire force slowly advancing.  I would have stayed back to try and keep my long range advantage from c3 as long as possible.  I would even have put some long range units up on the hills to make sure they could find targets, and duck behind if hurt.  However, he crushed the partial charge from the Kestrels, so I can't fault his choice or the results.  I don't know what he would have done if the entire Kestrel force had charged.

As the Kestrels, I would have charged them all.   Straight down the most open path I could find, possibly having thefaster units duck for cover so they don't get too far ahead.  However, that's due to knowing the SoL's C3 and long range variants.  Trying to look at the Kestrels on their own, the Longbow, Marauder II, Warhammer are all good long-range units, so I can see why he didn't feel the need to hurry them in to medium/short range.  I believe this was his first encounter with c3 as well.  He did use partial cover very well.  This kept his big boys well protected through the end of the game and was a big advantage left for the Kestrels after turn 4.

Quick Strike and woods are odd compared to normaly BattleTech.  In QS, its' the woods between you, there's no built in advantage for being IN the woods.  The Kestrels had several units in or behind woods where all it really did was prevent effective return fire from the Kestrels.  The SoL just targeted the ones outside the woods anyway.  So the woods impeded the Kestrels fire for no advantage, on the right flank in particular.  the left flank the woods at least broke up concentrated fire a bit, though it does so as much to the Kestrels as the Sword of Light. Also, the SoL did the same with the woods, with the Awesome  in particular sticking out as having difficulties in the first three turns from woods.

One surprise to me, I had noticed the Sword of Light had more mobility, but had thought of that in terms of manuever.  Their mobility also helped defensively, as the Kestrels were looking at some tougher shots due to the speed of the Sword of Light forces.  The Hatamoto-Hi died in the fourth turn because it didn't have the speed of most of the rest of the force.



« Last Edit: 02 February 2011, 13:11:28 by nckestrel »
Master Unit List - List of all canon units, faction availabilities, Alpha Strike unit cards, Battle Values
Combat Manual Lite series - Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots.

Vol Jbolaz

  • Guest
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #4 on: 02 February 2011, 13:19:17 »
Quick Strike and woods are odd compared to normaly BattleTech.  In QS, its' the woods between you, there's no built in advantage for being IN the woods.  The Kestrels had several units in or behind woods where all it really did was prevent effective return fire from the Kestrels.

This is true, too.  I finally moved the Ajax out of the woods, very very late, howerver.  It was the only unit I had that could actually fit in the sculpted trees.  Are Quick Strike rules meant to be mini based?  I assume so, which may contribute to the woods rules being the way they are.

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8359
  • Painted by Mastergunz
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #5 on: 02 February 2011, 13:22:36 »
This is true, too.  I finally moved the Ajax out of the woods, very very late, howerver.  It was the only unit I had that could actually fit in the sculpted trees.  Are Quick Strike rules meant to be mini based?  I assume so, which may contribute to the woods rules being the way they are.

Yes.  It's basically a combination of Battleforce and miniatures rules.  (There is a set of miniatures rules for 'standard' battletech).   it's pretty easy to convert Quick-Strike to using hexes though.  just divide the inches by 2 to get hexes again.
Master Unit List - List of all canon units, faction availabilities, Alpha Strike unit cards, Battle Values
Combat Manual Lite series - Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots.

BARNESGN

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 522
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #6 on: 02 February 2011, 13:35:36 »
Enjoyed the game guys. Second time playing QS and I like it. Big thank you to Gamer's Armory that place is great for terrain battles.

My play style is to mix it up at brawler range using fast calvary movement. C3 was a nice bonus just need to remember that ECM negates it. Thanks for hosting the event, see you soon.

markhall

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1404
  • "The Button's Stuck!"
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #7 on: 02 February 2011, 19:46:35 »
Nice board and great mechs on the table.


That's a brave ass Jenner making the loan run on the enemy forces. If he survived I hope he got a nice medal for his part.

Thanks for sharing the report.

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7937
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #8 on: 03 February 2011, 03:29:47 »
I remember 12 on 12 fights taking 12 hours.
Yep, QS is very fast for the # of units used.  Its because of the to hit rolls.  Only 1 per unit instead of for each weapon and then cluster rolls and then locations.  Just 1 roll and 1 damage column.

Quote
There may be better strategies, but I don't think mine was completely horrible.
I wasn't implying it was a bad strategy, so please don't take it that way.
More just saying that was the only small flaw I really saw in the over all plan.
The forces started to separate and I'm a believer in massed firepower and keeping together.

Quote
I didn't realize the indirect fire capabilities of the Longbow.  ......I also didn't realize the Ajax was such a beast. 
Yeah, those 2 are a nasty nasty amount of firesupport power.

Quote
I will say, the loss of the three 'Mechs in one go does underscore a difference in Quick Strike over traditional rules.
If you get into the conversion rules there is a reason.
Damage is at a 1/10 ratio and rounded UP.
Armor is a 1/30 ratio and rounded DOWN.
So if you were in CBT scale it would be like saying EVERY weapon you have now does 3+ times as much damage.
15 point MLs and 45 point Gauss rounds would speed up a CBT game to be sure.

Quote
In traditional rules, targets are declared before fire resolution.  Meaning, more of the enemy may have committed to engaging the Rifleman since it was finally close enough to be a threat.  With Quick Strike, since it went down so fast, the enemy was able to spread its fire and take out two more targets that it might not have cared to engage.
Actually, declaration should work the same.  They shouldn't be able to see a mech die and then change fire to a different target.

That said however it is a LOT easier in QS to know how much fire to assign to a target.
For instance if a need to do 6 damage to a mech to kill it I can assign 3 mechs doing 3 each and hope that only 1 of the 3 misses and guarantee a kill.
With CBT locations you can get unlucky on crit rolls or get a really bad spread and not kill a mech even if you assign a ton of firepower to the job.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7937
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #9 on: 03 February 2011, 03:36:16 »
Quick Strike and woods are odd compared to normaly BattleTech.  In QS, its' the woods between you, there's no built in advantage for being IN the woods.  The Kestrels had several units in or behind woods where all it really did was prevent effective return fire from the Kestrels.  The SoL just targeted the ones outside the woods anyway.  So the woods impeded the Kestrels fire for no advantage, on the right flank in particular.  the left flank the woods at least broke up concentrated fire a bit, though it does so as much to the Kestrels as the Sword of Light. Also, the SoL did the same with the woods, with the Awesome  in particular sticking out as having difficulties in the first three turns from woods.

Actually, I think there is a way to get the woods defensively while not paying for it offensively.
You have to be at the very edge so your base outside the edge of the terrain.

This doesn't really make sense given how yours are set up in the pictures, but, for our QS games we use some flat felt mats similar to how MWDA used to use them, random shapes.
THEN we stick a few tree counters on the shape so you know its trees.
So anything in the area covered by the shape is in trees.
But if you as the attacker can trace a line to your target and your base doesn't touch the trees because you are right at the edge then you get the bonus w/o paying the penalty.

I hope that makes sense.

Its disturbing to see a light mech just get into some trees, then park right at the edge, and sit there stationary with a +6 to TMM all day long.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Vol Jbolaz

  • Guest
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #10 on: 03 February 2011, 08:20:45 »
I wasn't implying it was a bad strategy, so please don't take it that way.

I'm sorry, I didn't think you were.  I was not offended.  But, I do agree that I misused some of my heavier assets (the Longbow and Ajax in particular) simply because I didn't completely appreciate what they did.

Actually, declaration should work the same.  They shouldn't be able to see a mech die and then change fire to a different target.

That isn't how we played it.  Perhaps we did it wrong.  :(

That said however it is a LOT easier in QS to know how much fire to assign to a target.
For instance if a need to do 6 damage to a mech to kill it I can assign 3 mechs doing 3 each and hope that only 1 of the 3 misses and guarantee a kill.
With CBT locations you can get unlucky on crit rolls or get a really bad spread and not kill a mech even if you assign a ton of firepower to the job.

That's very true.  In the long run though, I think that balances out.  You get unlucky spreads and a 'Mech doesn't go down, and you also get hero 'Mechs on your side that manage to survive much more damage than they should.

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8359
  • Painted by Mastergunz
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #11 on: 03 February 2011, 10:38:47 »
Actually, declaration should work the same.  They shouldn't be able to see a mech die and then change fire to a different target.

SO p401.  Quick-Strike Sequence of Play.  Initiatve, Movement, Combat, End.  No declaration there.  In the combat phase, "the initiative loser completes all actions in this phase, followed by the Initiative Winner".  "The acting player resolves combat for all of his elements....Damage from these attacks is resolved as each Element finishes his attacks, but not not take effect until the End Phase;.."
SO p404.  Combat Phase.  "The acting player chooses a target for an Element (and how much of its Overheat Value the attacker will use, if applicable...resolves combat for that unit and then moves on to another available Element."

So not only is there no declaration of fire before resolving fire, but the one side does all resolving and then the other side does all resolving.  It is very different from standard Battletech in that aspect.
Master Unit List - List of all canon units, faction availabilities, Alpha Strike unit cards, Battle Values
Combat Manual Lite series - Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots.

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8359
  • Painted by Mastergunz
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #12 on: 03 February 2011, 10:44:37 »
Actually, I think there is a way to get the woods defensively while not paying for it offensively.
You have to be at the very edge so your base outside the edge of the terrain.

Quick-Strike uses miniatures rules for LoS.  The miniature rules use "intervening amount of heavy and/or light woods."  If the woods is around you, but not between you and the attacker, then it's not intervening.  It does not define intervening, though that definition does not change with attacker/defender, so there is no way for the woods to be intervening one way (attacker to defender) and not the other (defender to attacker) unless you use different definitions (base to center, center to base).  QS range is specifically edge of base to edge of base, and I don't think range should use a different definition than LoS, so that's what I use. 
Master Unit List - List of all canon units, faction availabilities, Alpha Strike unit cards, Battle Values
Combat Manual Lite series - Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots.

Vol Jbolaz

  • Guest
Re: Quick Strike Company v Company
« Reply #13 on: 03 February 2011, 10:57:57 »
So not only is there no declaration of fire before resolving fire, but the one side does all resolving and then the other side does all resolving.  It is very different from standard Battletech in that aspect.

We didn't do it that way, but I can't think of a big difference that makes.  I guess the initiative winner knows for certain which 'Mechs are going to die before any fire, so he can overheat those at will.  But, I should've been using overheat more often anyway (and I only won initiative the first turn).

 

Register