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Charger vs. Hunchback!

CGR-1A1 Charger!
HBK-4G Hunchback!
Draw / Too Close to Call.

Author Topic: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!  (Read 5018 times)

Kiesel

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #30 on: 26 January 2012, 21:41:59 »
As long as the hunchback can avoid being pushed out of position by a charge, the lvl 3 hill strategy swings the odds in the hunchback's favor. 
Assuming a shot when the charger reaches the bottom of the hill + a shot while it is trying to charge up the hill, the hunchback is going to average over 45-55 damage & 2.1-2.3 PSR's caused.
(depending on the movement mod the charger generates moving to the base of the hill, and assuming the charger gets a 3 hex charge.)
Meanwhile the charger will only be doing 16-24 damage from the 2-3 hex charge itself if it hits, has a 41% chance to fail & auto-fall, and will be risking a TN 9-10 fall even on a success. 
(72-83% depending on whether the AC20 hits)
Giving a 9.7-16% chance of the charger remaining standing after the hill charge attempt.  meanwhile the Hunchback will remain standing 66-76%of the time (vs 3 hex & 2 hex charges respectively). 
And that is before considering the very significant chance that the charger will fall due to a PSR from a kick or ac/20 hit.
« Last Edit: 26 January 2012, 22:38:01 by Kiesel »

Ronin Actual

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #31 on: 26 January 2012, 23:03:56 »
I think a good overall lesson is that the Charger could be a pretty good lance mate.  Either the enemy ignores him, and takes a hardcore pummeling or they focus on him while his lance mates maneuver and fire.  I enjoyed playing a Mech that I normally wouldn't have given the time of day.

House Davie Merc

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #32 on: 27 January 2012, 03:11:24 »
I think that perhaps because the name of the mech is " Charger" to many
people think the mech should be used for charge attacks .

It's easier to do ALMOST as much damage as a full distance charge by
firing all the Charger's small lasers and following that up with a kick .

If you succesfully kicked the Hunchback on a previous turn and you land another
kick you have a 50% chance of taking off a leg from the front or back , and if you
feel it's worth the risk to get in the side arc of the damaged leg and land a kick
the Hunchy's  down .

The Hunchback only has 4 points in each rear side torso so punching could be
better then kicking in this case .

I've seen the Charger used a lot by some players that favor it in BV balanced games
and they VERY rarey actually charge with them .
They prefer to kick . Especially from the side arc of a mech with previous leg damage .

monbvol

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #33 on: 27 January 2012, 10:30:37 »
The Charger can win this fight.  It just has to be luckier than the Hunchback.  I've seen it happen but it does make me a bit uncomfortable.

Jim1701

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #34 on: 27 January 2012, 13:36:46 »
As long as the hunchback can avoid being pushed out of position by a charge, the lvl 3 hill strategy swings the odds in the hunchback's favor. 
Assuming a shot when the charger reaches the bottom of the hill + a shot while it is trying to charge up the hill, the hunchback is going to average over 45-55 damage & 2.1-2.3 PSR's caused.
(depending on the movement mod the charger generates moving to the base of the hill, and assuming the charger gets a 3 hex charge.)
Meanwhile the charger will only be doing 16-24 damage from the 2-3 hex charge itself if it hits, has a 41% chance to fail & auto-fall, and will be risking a TN 9-10 fall even on a success. 
(72-83% depending on whether the AC20 hits)
Giving a 9.7-16% chance of the charger remaining standing after the hill charge attempt.  meanwhile the Hunchback will remain standing 66-76%of the time (vs 3 hex & 2 hex charges respectively). 
And that is before considering the very significant chance that the charger will fall due to a PSR from a kick or ac/20 hit.

In this case then the duel would be a draw unless the Charger pilot is an idiot.  If I'm piloting the Charger and the Hunchback is just going to sit on top of a hill and wait for me to climb up it then I'm just going to sit at 10 hexes and wait for him to climb DOWN it. 

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #35 on: 27 January 2012, 14:49:57 »
That's probably why tournament rules require you to move as close to weapons' range as possible of your opponent every round.

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Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Kiesel

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #36 on: 27 January 2012, 15:50:57 »
That's zellbriggen that says you have to move into weapons range every round if possible. 
And if the tourney house rules are forcing the charger to run as fast as possible to range 3 every round, the hunchback can easily dictate the charger's movement.  All the hunchback has to do is choose the right starting position so that its own forced movement towards the charger will force it to climb the hill in the 2 turns it takes for the charger to close to within range 9.  At which point the charger will be forced to climb the hill.


in reply to Jim1701:
The hill scenario was how the hunchback can win even in the the best case setup for the charger, where the charger always has initiative for some reason.

The main purpose of the hill was actually to prevent kick attacks.  By standing a level higher, the Hunchback maxes out at 43 damage (10 on the punch table), while the charger only gets 25 (with a TN penalty for having only 1 hand.)  The only way for the charger to win is to knock the hunchback off its perch with a charge or a push.


It really comes down to game theory here.

Case 1: the hunchback plays defensively, & the charger plays defensively.  Draw (game never ends because the charger can stay out of range as long as it wants)
Case 2: the hunchback sits on the hill defensively, & the charger engages.  Strong advantage Hunchback
Case 3: the hunchback & charger both engage aggressively.  Slight advantage Hunchback (initiative * TN * 2.5 kicks to take of a leg = ~10 turns to kick off a leg while being shot at by the hunchback.  Rear punches are deadlier but harder to set up, charges are too risky.)
Case 4: the hunchback engages & the charger does not engage. Draw  (same as case 1)

Even if you assume that case 3 is actually a 50/50 tossup, the results for the hunchback are (Draw, Win, Draw, Draw), while the charger is looking at (Draw, Loss, Draw, Draw)
playing as the hunchback is thus a "strongly dominant strategy".

If the charger had even a single ERML instead, it would shift to a balanced game or at the very least a weakly dominant strategy for one or the other.
The hunchback could play defensively to deal with the range advantage if the charger tries to snipe (Draw)
the defensive hunchback + aggro charger plays out the same (advantage hunchback)
both aggro plays out the same, with perhaps a slight improvement for the charger (draw)
and the aggro hunchback + evading charger would play out in the charger's favor (advantage charger)

Isanova

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #37 on: 27 January 2012, 17:02:08 »
How do you figure the CGR-1L fitting in against the Hunchback? Does the range advantage and speed advantage ensure a Charger win?
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monbvol

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #38 on: 27 January 2012, 18:14:09 »
How do you figure the CGR-1L fitting in against the Hunchback? Does the range advantage and speed advantage ensure a Charger win?

The range advantage would certainly help the 1L variant and would force the Hunchback to play more aggressively but the thinner armor means even a single hit from that AC-20 can ruin the Charger's advantages in short order.

That's zellbriggen that says you have to move into weapons range every round if possible. 
And if the tourney house rules are forcing the charger to run as fast as possible to range 3 every round, the hunchback can easily dictate the charger's movement.  All the hunchback has to do is choose the right starting position so that its own forced movement towards the charger will force it to climb the hill in the 2 turns it takes for the charger to close to within range 9.  At which point the charger will be forced to climb the hill.


in reply to Jim1701:
The hill scenario was how the hunchback can win even in the the best case setup for the charger, where the charger always has initiative for some reason.

The main purpose of the hill was actually to prevent kick attacks.  By standing a level higher, the Hunchback maxes out at 43 damage (10 on the punch table), while the charger only gets 25 (with a TN penalty for having only 1 hand.)  The only way for the charger to win is to knock the hunchback off its perch with a charge or a push.


It really comes down to game theory here.

Case 1: the hunchback plays defensively, & the charger plays defensively.  Draw (game never ends because the charger can stay out of range as long as it wants)
Case 2: the hunchback sits on the hill defensively, & the charger engages.  Strong advantage Hunchback
Case 3: the hunchback & charger both engage aggressively.  Slight advantage Hunchback (initiative * TN * 2.5 kicks to take of a leg = ~10 turns to kick off a leg while being shot at by the hunchback.  Rear punches are deadlier but harder to set up, charges are too risky.)
Case 4: the hunchback engages & the charger does not engage. Draw  (same as case 1)

Even if you assume that case 3 is actually a 50/50 tossup, the results for the hunchback are (Draw, Win, Draw, Draw), while the charger is looking at (Draw, Loss, Draw, Draw)
playing as the hunchback is thus a "strongly dominant strategy".

If the charger had even a single ERML instead, it would shift to a balanced game or at the very least a weakly dominant strategy for one or the other.
The hunchback could play defensively to deal with the range advantage if the charger tries to snipe (Draw)
the defensive hunchback + aggro charger plays out the same (advantage hunchback)
both aggro plays out the same, with perhaps a slight improvement for the charger (draw)
and the aggro hunchback + evading charger would play out in the charger's favor (advantage charger)

Not quite.  On the stated terrain with no rolling maps 5/8 is not enough versus 4/6 to keep the range open forever.  It's not enough even on open ground.  Even if rolling maps were used the only way it is enough is for the Charger to turn it's back on the Hunchback and run away.

Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #39 on: 27 January 2012, 20:06:54 »
I think that perhaps because the name of the mech is " Charger" to many
people think the mech should be used for charge attacks .

It's easier to do ALMOST as much damage as a full distance charge by
firing all the Charger's small lasers and following that up with a kick .

A full length charge is 56 points, max damage from 5 SL and an 80 tons kick is 31, or 55% of your damage from a charge.

Quote
If you succesfully kicked the Hunchback on a previous turn and you land another
kick you have a 50% chance of taking off a leg from the front or back , and if you
feel it's worth the risk to get in the side arc of the damaged leg and land a kick
the Hunchy's  down .

The Hunchback only has 4 points in each rear side torso so punching could be
better then kicking in this case .

"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win" -Sun Tzu (the original, not Liao   ;))

I see alot of ifs.  If I got a kick in last round, If I can get a backshot, If, If, If.

That relies on luck.  On winning initiative and being able to close to melee range even if the Hunchback backs up, and still having TMM high enough to have an even chance of not taking the AC/20 blast.  This one I'll grant.  But because a Charger is an AMINO (Assault Mech in Name Only), it can't tank very many AC/20 hits before it starts hurting, any to the arms are immediately internal  and the head is an instant game over.  If you are that close, then he at least has had some time to take high TN pot shots at you with the Medium Lasers.  Weakened armor before you step into the face of an alphaing Hunchback is never a good situation.   >:D

Next turn, you assume you win initiative again.  This is where I start to have issues with the Charger boosters.  For starters you assume you took no debilitating hits from the Hunchback getting next to him.  And even if you tanked the AC hit if one landed you assume you made the PSR, AND stayed standing from the likely kick the Hunchback replied with.  Again assuming you make all the needed rolls on your side, always a good recipe for the Lady Luck to bend you over the table, and the Hunchback is one mean dildo in Her hands if she does.

But say you do, unless you are standing in exactly the right hex and orientation you need two turns of manuvering (and wining initiative) to get around behind the Hunchback that isn't restricted in mobility (damage, heat, terrain), and besides that assumption of hot dice, that gives him another point blank alpha strike.  And those right hexes?  If he is reading the map decently he might try to run your route around him through MP eating terrain, buying himself an extra turn of fire.

Also I haven't had one Charger supporter ask this question.  You get next to the Hunchback and don't put him down.  Next turn you lose initiative.   #P  What is your reaction then?  I tried gaming it out, and even at full speed I can't see how the Charger keeps out of medium range, though if you blow by him at full speed (assuming an offset to one side setting up the curl around you want for the back) you can at least force him to run to keep you that close.

A Hunchback has a simpler strategy, keep you no closer than three hexes (your SL is not worth the extra damage the Charger will be able to dish out), and when initiative is lost fall back if at all possible.  You both get stronger the tighter the fight, but your strength rises much faster than his.
« Last Edit: 27 January 2012, 23:43:47 by Nikas_Zekeval »

Ronin Actual

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #40 on: 27 January 2012, 23:14:03 »
I'm seeing a lot of talk and not a lot of playing out the scenario.  I have played the scenario out at least 10 times and haven't lost once with the Charger. 

Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #41 on: 27 January 2012, 23:42:27 »
I'm seeing a lot of talk and not a lot of playing out the scenario.  I have played the scenario out at least 10 times and haven't lost once with the Charger.

Against a human player?

House Davie Merc

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #42 on: 28 January 2012, 00:11:12 »
I'm seeing a lot of talk and not a lot of playing out the scenario.  I have played the scenario out at least 10 times and haven't lost once with the Charger.
I've played it out at least that many times as the Charger against the Bot and only lost once .

That time I missed a kick and then failed the PSR .

On the following turn I lost initiative and could NOT get up .

I took more damage from falling 5 times then from the AC/20 .    :D

The trick is patience and setting your self up for NEXT round .
( along with keeping you THMs as high as possible . )

IMHO in a TEAM setting the Hunchy woops the Charger easy ,but in a
1 on 1 duel I consider it around a 50/50 .

Kiesel

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #43 on: 28 January 2012, 01:04:07 »
Take another look at my Nash equilibrium before trumpeting the charger's successes vs the bot.
the bot never plays defensively, and is completely incapable of strategic positioning. (I.E. it cannot think ahead turns)

The hunchback can force the charger into a position where the only options are to lose or draw.
It's like playing tic-tac-toe, & the hunchback gets first placement.  Yes the second player can force a draw every time, but it can only win if the first player chooses not to play the optimum opening move.

There are places on the map where the hunchback can stand, that prevent the charger from kicking, prevent the charger from getting back shots, prevent charges longer than 3 hexes, & which it can only be pushed from if the charger makes a series of rolls with a 15% or less chance of success.

Just because the Bot is too stupid to find the winning opening move, doesn't mean that it does not exist.
« Last Edit: 28 January 2012, 01:06:36 by Kiesel »

Demos

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Charger vs. Hunchback!
« Reply #44 on: 28 January 2012, 02:30:00 »
Voted for the Hunchback.
IMHO the Charger have to depend to much on the close-quarter fighting. And with a defined battlefield of a few (no rolling) maps, it's hard to dictate the range even with a speed advantage.
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