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Author Topic: Hand-Held Weapons?  (Read 12707 times)

wellspring

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #90 on: 06 January 2013, 23:33:35 »
That assumes that the purchaser has more than one general use for the mech in the first place.  There's not too much call for a forestry mech at a dropship port, or a heavy duty construction mech on a family farm (something that can be rigged for light construction work to assist in raising a barn, sure, but not something you'd use for building a skyscraper).

In which case you'll see the farmer renting out his HarvestMech at the DropShip port or with a construction company when he's not using it to harvest. A nice side source of income.

(Or, more likely, vice versa, where the farmer rents buys the harvest configuration pods and rents the Mech at harvest time. He pays a much lower price than if he'd owned it, and doesn't have to pay maintenance during the 10-11 months per year when it's sitting in the barn collecting dust.) 

And for those agencies that use multiple types of industrialmechs, when it comes to buying 20 standard mechs vs 15 omnis, maybe they want 20 mechs for a reason, even if they're going 10 and 10 of two different types because they can run that many mechs simultaneously.

Really, it's about buying 10 Omnis or 30+ specialized mechs. For construction, for example, I can use a demolitions config, then switch to a site prep config as I dig out the foundation, then go to a cement mixer (or plascrete or whatever) and pour the foundation and then finally switch to a version with lift hoists, spot welders, and rivet guns for construction of the new building. I can even walk my mech out in the morning with cargo containers full of materials, then reconfigure on-site to assemble those materials.

Every configuration is another chassis, fusion drive, cockpit, mechwarrior and tech team that you don't have to pay for separately. And perhaps you're right that sometimes you'll need every specialty in the same numbers and at the same time. And, let's add, with no fluctuation in demand. Most of the time, especially on a small colony, none of that be the case, but it's certainly possible.

Even in that case, when the lift hoist is down for repairs, then so is your IndustrialMech. Meanwhile, when my Omni has the same problem, I swap out a spare pod and am back up and running in minutes. I also get the benefits of standardization in my spare parts stores, not modeled in StratOps but a realistic problem.

At let's say 5 million per mech, I pay 62.5 million for 10 omnis (plus config equipment), rather than 200 million on 40 specialized mechs. Then, I'll save on the 30 extra mechwarriors I don't have to hire, 30 techs (and 180 asTechs) that I don't have to pay, thirty times the monthly spare parts cost that I don't have to pay, savings I'll see year in and year out. And I take fewer revenue hits due to machine downtime. Any of that is well worth 12.5 million c-bills.

SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #91 on: 07 January 2013, 00:30:49 »
In a lot of cases were you see people using 'Mechs in verse it doesn't make sense. You don't need a 50ft robot to herd cattle, and a quad would be useful in clear cutting in rough terrain, but really they're using them because of a universe wide fixation on 'Mechs, not because it's the best tool for the job

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #92 on: 07 January 2013, 01:13:32 »
snip
Quote

You know, I had a big rebuttal for all your points, but what's the point?  We're just arguing in circles here.  Want to just drop the subject?

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

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mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #93 on: 07 January 2013, 08:47:12 »
Works for me. O0

Heck, I could actually see this being standard procedure in some places, such as spaceports or rail yards owned by a defense corporation that cannot afford true Battlemechs. Workmechs go about their day, but in case of attack, they run to dedicated sheds that have handheld weapons hidden inside. MinuteMechs! :D
Well I was thinking spaceport when I had the idea...

Didn't the Bucklands militia try this during the Falcon Incursion of 3058? yes, OTP: Falcon Incursion, p. 20. In a straight up fight, they got absolutely hammered. So maybe using them just as fire support units (LRM) or anti-Elemental units would be a much better idea.

wellspring

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #94 on: 07 January 2013, 09:48:50 »
You know, I had a big rebuttal for all your points, but what's the point?  We're just arguing in circles here.  Want to just drop the subject?

Sure, let's get back to HHWs.

Before this thread, my vision of a HHW was a laser gun, and it didn't seem very useful. Now, I'm thinking a low-ammo, high-damage missile pack. Huge nova potential--- you blow out the ammo, then drop it and switch to your regular weapons. Basically use it to add some bracket fire potential-- a short-ranged Mech grabs an LRM HHW, while a ranged support mech might keep an SRM HHW at his feet in case an enemy slips through the screen in front.

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #95 on: 07 January 2013, 10:45:39 »
Sure, let's get back to HHWs.

Before this thread, my vision of a HHW was a laser gun, and it didn't seem very useful. Now, I'm thinking a low-ammo, high-damage missile pack. Huge nova potential--- you blow out the ammo, then drop it and switch to your regular weapons. Basically use it to add some bracket fire potential-- a short-ranged Mech grabs an LRM HHW, while a ranged support mech might keep an SRM HHW at his feet in case an enemy slips through the screen in front.

Uses list so far:

  • Missilies to supplement bracket failings
  • Burst Rocket Launchers for backstabbing with lightly armed fast mechs
  • Specialty defense rifles kept at a fortified installation, allowing even your brawler mechs to function as anti-air, etc
  • Rapidly arming a force of noncombatant mecha

What else?

have your strike or battle lances carry packs of (Extended?) LRMs to be used with indirect fire spotted by your scout lance as they close?

Flamer/machine gun combos for anti infantry and city fighting?


mbear

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #96 on: 07 January 2013, 10:56:33 »
Uses list so far:

  • Missilies to supplement bracket failings
  • Burst Rocket Launchers for backstabbing with lightly armed fast mechs
  • Specialty defense rifles kept at a fortified installation, allowing even your brawler mechs to function as anti-air, etc
  • Rapidly arming a force of noncombatant mecha

What else?

have your strike or battle lances carry packs of (Extended?) LRMs to be used with indirect fire spotted by your scout lance as they close?

Flamer/machine gun combos for anti infantry and city fighting?
Adding firepower to an ambush.
Deploying specialty munitions like Thunders, Mine Clearance missiles, etc.

Peacetime: Fluid Gun loaded with fire suppressant for firefighting.

wellspring

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #97 on: 07 January 2013, 10:59:10 »
Don't forget LAM weapons supplements for commando missions. Burst-fire for maximizing damage, then drop the weapon prior to transforming and bugging out.

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #98 on: 07 January 2013, 11:01:51 »
Flamer/machine gun combos for anti infantry and city fighting?

Not a fan of this idea, really. Unless you know you're going to be facing an enemy that is roughly 90% infantry, losing the use of your heavy weapons doesn't seem like a good tradeoff. If you do go this route, remember to NEVER use them in a city. Unless the enemy infantry is lethally stupid, MGs and Flamers are useless against them in there. Only take this if you expect to face a lot of infantry, but don't expect any of them to enter buildings.
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #99 on: 07 January 2013, 11:06:16 »
Not a fan of this idea, really. Unless you know you're going to be facing an enemy that is roughly 90% infantry, losing the use of your heavy weapons doesn't seem like a good tradeoff. If you do go this route, remember to NEVER use them in a city. Unless the enemy infantry is lethally stupid, MGs and Flamers are useless against them in there. Only take this if you expect to face a lot of infantry, but don't expect any of them to enter buildings.

I was picturing a horde of spiders burning the city down, really.

Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #100 on: 07 January 2013, 11:08:36 »
That works. >:D

Though if I'm going to burn a city to the ground, I'll use air-dropped Inferno bombs, and use said Spiders to mow down the fleeing survivors. Either way, there's nothing that'll convince me to send any ground forces into a city I don't intend to leave standing.
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wellspring

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #101 on: 07 January 2013, 11:14:20 »
That works. >:D

Though if I'm going to burn a city to the ground, I'll use air-dropped Inferno bombs, and use said Spiders to mow down the fleeing survivors. Either way, there's nothing that'll convince me to send any ground forces into a city I don't intend to leave standing.

I'm still waiting for the bat-bomb.

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #102 on: 07 January 2013, 11:15:05 »
That works. >:D

Though if I'm going to burn a city to the ground, I'll use air-dropped Inferno bombs, and use said Spiders to mow down the fleeing survivors. Either way, there's nothing that'll convince me to send any ground forces into a city I don't intend to leave standing.

Good point.  My lust to terrorize the populace in person overcame my sanity it appears.



  • Missilies to supplement bracket failings
  • Burst Rocket Launchers for backstabbing with lightly armed fast mechs
  • Specialty defense rifles kept at a fortified installation, allowing even your brawler mechs to function as anti-air, etc
  • Rapidly arming a force of noncombatant mecha
  • Adding firepower to an ambush
  • LAM use before bugging out
  • Specialty Munitions (I LIKE this one)
  • Fluid guns for multiple uses (Peacetime, oil slicks, cooling down your sniper mecha, etc

Jim1701

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #103 on: 07 January 2013, 11:23:44 »
Really, it's about buying 10 Omnis or 30+ specialized mechs. For construction, for example, I can use a demolitions config, then switch to a site prep config as I dig out the foundation, then go to a cement mixer (or plascrete or whatever) and pour the foundation and then finally switch to a version with lift hoists, spot welders, and rivet guns for construction of the new building. I can even walk my mech out in the morning with cargo containers full of materials, then reconfigure on-site to assemble those materials.

No, it's about needing 30 mechs to do 30 jobs all at the same time.  I have a deadline to meet and don't have time to wait from those 10 omni's to finish task A, downtime while they are reconfigured for task B, finish task B, downtime to reconfigure for task C and then finish task C. 

Military forces like omni's because cost is a secondary factor in their planning.  They have a much more open ended mission and flexibility beats economy (assuming said military can afford the expense anyway) but they will still buy 30 omnis to replace 30 standard mechs, not 10. 

Istal_Devalis

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #104 on: 07 January 2013, 11:37:51 »
Not a fan of this idea, really. Unless you know you're going to be facing an enemy that is roughly 90% infantry, losing the use of your heavy weapons doesn't seem like a good tradeoff. If you do go this route, remember to NEVER use them in a city. Unless the enemy infantry is lethally stupid, MGs and Flamers are useless against them in there. Only take this if you expect to face a lot of infantry, but don't expect any of them to enter buildings.
Well, you cant use the HHW's at the same time as your normal guns, but is anything keeping you from 'stowing' it, and just carrying it in your hands like any other cargo?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #105 on: 07 January 2013, 11:40:21 »
Aside from the lack of a lift hoist for carrying it on most mechs?

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

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Weirdo

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #106 on: 07 January 2013, 11:41:34 »
You can carry it like cargo, sure. Not sure what the firing restrictions are there, or if there's anything you need to do to transfer it from 'cargo' to 'handheld'.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
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Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #107 on: 07 January 2013, 11:56:20 »
Well, you cant use the HHW's at the same time as your normal guns, but is anything keeping you from 'stowing' it, and just carrying it in your hands like any other cargo?

We're waiting on an answer for that. 

You could just mount a 3 ton lift hoist in the torso, and call it a holster though.

Jim1701

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #108 on: 07 January 2013, 12:09:01 »
Yes, the cargo carrying rules really don't say anything about the affect of carrying "cargo" has on firing weapons.  I would think there would still have to be some sort of interference. 

Vanadius

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #109 on: 07 January 2013, 12:14:13 »
Yes, the cargo carrying rules really don't say anything about the affect of carrying "cargo" has on firing weapons.  I would think there would still have to be some sort of interference.

Well, in my version, it does say that you cannot fire torso or arm mounted weapons when carrying cargo.

Per Tac Ops 95, one can carry 5% weight in one hand, and still retain the ability to fire from the other arm.


wellspring

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #110 on: 07 January 2013, 14:48:00 »
I've started a new thread in the House Rules forum for anyone who wants to post some designs based on this conversation. Anusol has another thread for HHW-oriented Mechs as well.


FedComGirl

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #111 on: 07 January 2013, 15:11:22 »
In which case you'll see the farmer renting out his HarvestMech at the DropShip port or with a construction company when he's not using it to harvest. A nice side source of income.

(Or, more likely, vice versa, where the farmer rents buys the harvest configuration pods and rents the Mech at harvest time. He pays a much lower price than if he'd owned it, and doesn't have to pay maintenance during the 10-11 months per year when it's sitting in the barn collecting dust.) 

Problem is if even a good number of Farmers are renting there's liable to be a waiting list come harvest time, unless the rental company has a lot of mechs. When the demand lessens they'd be sitting in the warehouse.

Also, don't a lot of farmers rotate their crops so they always have something needing planting or harvesting?


Quote
Really, it's about buying 10 Omnis or 30+ specialized mechs. For construction, for example, I can use a demolitions config, then switch to a site prep config as I dig out the foundation, then go to a cement mixer (or plascrete or whatever) and pour the foundation and then finally switch to a version with lift hoists, spot welders, and rivet guns for construction of the new building. I can even walk my mech out in the morning with cargo containers full of materials, then reconfigure on-site to assemble those materials.

Every configuration is another chassis, fusion drive, cockpit, mechwarrior and tech team that you don't have to pay for separately. And perhaps you're right that sometimes you'll need every specialty in the same numbers and at the same time. And, let's add, with no fluctuation in demand. Most of the time, especially on a small colony, none of that be the case, but it's certainly possible.

Even in that case, when the lift hoist is down for repairs, then so is your IndustrialMech. Meanwhile, when my Omni has the same problem, I swap out a spare pod and am back up and running in minutes. I also get the benefits of standardization in my spare parts stores, not modeled in StratOps but a realistic problem.

At let's say 5 million per mech, I pay 62.5 million for 10 omnis (plus config equipment), rather than 200 million on 40 specialized mechs. Then, I'll save on the 30 extra mechwarriors I don't have to hire, 30 techs (and 180 asTechs) that I don't have to pay, thirty times the monthly spare parts cost that I don't have to pay, savings I'll see year in and year out. And I take fewer revenue hits due to machine downtime. Any of that is well worth 12.5 million c-bills.

This is where renting would be good. Why have a loader sitting around when you need a a digger? You don't. You rent the one then the other. Omnis are great since you'd only need one but you'd still probable rent the omni pods.

ColBosch

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #112 on: 07 January 2013, 17:04:11 »
What about storing a HHW in a cargo-bay or bomb-bay?

LAM Bomb Bays can only be used for items that can be mounted on conventional hardpoints. I believe there is such a thing as cargo pods, so it's possible, but you wouldn't have a stowed HHW but instead a bit of cargo that would need to be unpacked before use. This might be useful, but I'd think that you'd be better off just using that weight and space for built-in weapons and armor.

Sorry, your Veritech analogues will need to find another solution. ;)
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Maingunnery

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #113 on: 07 January 2013, 17:06:58 »
LAM Bomb Bays can only be used for items that can be mounted on conventional hardpoints.
Rockets can be mounted on conventional hardpoints.

Quote
I believe there is such a thing as cargo pods, so it's possible, but you wouldn't have a stowed HHW but instead a bit of cargo that would need to be unpacked before use. This might be useful, but I'd think that you'd be better off just using that weight and space for built-in weapons and armor.

Sorry, your Veritech analogues will need to find another solution. ;)
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SCC

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #114 on: 07 January 2013, 17:57:00 »
You guys forgot about artillery as one of the options for HHW's, you shouldn't bet needing that at the same time as needing to fire your normal weapons

Also with a little imagination you can make a proton pack, PPC handheld with heat sinks in a back pack

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #115 on: 07 January 2013, 18:01:02 »
Even an Atlas with TSM couldn't carry an artillery piece bigger than a Thumper or Arrow IV.  A hand-held TAG might be somewhat useful for a light mech like a Dart, Spider, or Fireball, though.

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ColBosch

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #116 on: 07 January 2013, 18:14:34 »
Rockets can be mounted on conventional hardpoints.

Yes, but if you mount them in a handheld weapon pod, then it's the latter.
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YingJanshi

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #117 on: 07 January 2013, 18:37:55 »
Hey so Hand-Held melee weapons lose special abilities and are treated as clubs. Sooo, do they do their normal damage or only the standard clubbing damage?

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #118 on: 07 January 2013, 18:42:25 »
Clubbing damage only. Doubled vs baby seals.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
There's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

wellspring

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Re: Hand-Held Weapons?
« Reply #119 on: 07 January 2013, 18:56:26 »
Hey so Hand-Held melee weapons lose special abilities and are treated as clubs. Sooo, do they do their normal damage or only the standard clubbing damage?

Quote from: "TacOps, pg 316
If using a Handheld weapon for a melee attack, use the standard club attack rules (see pp. 145-146, TW) for all damage based on tonnage. Fixed-damage melee weapons (such as Chainsaws) deliver damage as normal, but maintain the Handheld Weapons’ restriction that both hands are required for use.

And actually my copy of TO has that passage twice in two successive paragraphs. Looks like it requires an errata post.

 

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