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Author Topic: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M  (Read 4059 times)

ehlijen

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #30 on: 26 December 2012, 07:29:33 »

(That said, I'd argue that a Charger who's hiding in depth 2 water for 452 turns has already lost.  An Assault 'Mech being completely taken out of every fight it could possibly be in for over an hour by the least armored 'Mech in the game has failed on numerous levels.)

That's redefining the question to suit your answer. The question is who would win the fight, not who would achieve greater strategic significance.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #31 on: 26 December 2012, 08:52:20 »
That's redefining the question to suit your answer. The question is who would win the fight, not who would achieve greater strategic significance.
"The Charger stays under water until the Locust goes home" isn't a win for the Charger either, it's just a draw.

It should also be noted that the Locust outranges and out-moves the Charger underwater as well, so unless the map gives a perfect sinkhole for the Charger to hide in underwater doesn't really change things.

Kovax

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #32 on: 26 December 2012, 10:40:55 »
The LCT doesn't have to play a perfect game to win, but it's likely to take a bit of tactical savvy and/or some luck on an initiative roll or two in order to avoid being pinned against a map edge and shot at.  Facing at the end of a turn is going to be important for the LCT, with more than one planned avenue of escape at any time in case it loses initiative, relying on the fact that the CGR can't turn around and run or back up far enough to cover the opposite ends of the playing field.

I see it as a probably win for the LCT if the LCT pilot knows what he's doing,  unless the CGR pilot forces a draw by using some sort of blind cover, which isn't available on the maps specified.  If the LCT pilot plays it wrong, this could be over VERY suddenly.

Given a bigger map area, it should be a guaranteed win or draw for the LCT, and the best the CGR could hope for would be to force a stalemate.

Diamondshark

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #33 on: 26 December 2012, 10:49:02 »
What are you talking about?  The Locust's margin of error is a whopping six hexes at the minimum, and 18 hexes if you're using the LRM.

I think you're misunderstanding. I mean that you can't let the Charger get within firing range once. If you were using a Wolfhound, it could take some punishment, but iirc this is the most frail (non-industrialmech) mech ever created. This means that the Charger will have control of this fight, despite its lower speed, because the Locust is going to be desperately scrambling to avoid that Charger the whole time.

A single ton of LRM-5 ammo MIGHT be able to kill a Charger, but with no ammo, and the expendable nature of its side torsos and arms, it's not likely to kill the Charger outright. Then begins a long, tedious game of cat-and-mouse, where if the Charger gets in a single shot, it's pretty much over. And with only two mapsheets, trying to flank the Charger requires VERY precise movement. If you think about it, the Charger doesn't have a 3-hex range, it has an 3-11 variable range, based on terrain and turning.

In short, the Locust theoretically can win this fight, if the Charger never closes even once, and if the Locust never falls down for some reason. With the small maps given, that's some slim odds, right there.
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TonUp

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #34 on: 26 December 2012, 11:31:22 »
...
In short, the Locust theoretically can win this fight, if the Charger never closes even once, and if the Locust never falls down for some reason. With the small maps given, that's some slim odds, right there.

The more I think about this, the more I think Charger wins.

The Locust would have to play perfectly. The Charger doesn’t care about perfect. It just needs to get into charge range once.
 
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martian

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #35 on: 26 December 2012, 11:46:29 »
It's a pity that the OP did not set up a poll.

bakija

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #36 on: 26 December 2012, 12:15:30 »
A single ton of LRM-5 ammo MIGHT be able to kill a Charger, but with no ammo, and the expendable nature of its side torsos and arms, it's not likely to kill the Charger outright.

Yeah, I think the single ton of LRM5 ammo is very unlikely to end the Charger in and of itself--assuming it hits about half the time and does about 3 damage per hit, that's only about 36 total damage spread around an 80 ton mech. Heck, if we are charitable and give it a 75% hit percentage, that is still just over 50 damage. Spread around. An 80 ton mech (which, to be fair, isn't overloaded with armor). Not that big of a dent, really.

So then the Locust needs to engage with the ML. Meaning it needs to be at R9. Against a mech that moves 8. On a map with edges. It isn't going to be *that* hard for the Charger to end up at a range where the SLs can fire, and even a few SL hits on this version of the Locust can shoot off a leg. And a single situation where the Charger gets to physical attack range and the game is likely over.
« Last Edit: 26 December 2012, 14:48:21 by bakija »

House Davie Merc

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #37 on: 26 December 2012, 14:06:01 »
The LCT-1M should win unless the Locust's pilot has had some recent
brain trama or is severely intoxicated .

Forget the LRMs .

The Locust  can sit outside of the range of the Chargers small lasers and
plink with it's medium laser for as long as the locust's pilot can stay
awake through the boredom .

If the Locust's pilots has enough active brain cells then the Charger will never
even get to take a shot .

In a team setting the Charger can move in at medium mech speeds and
deliver assault mech physical attacks  while other mechs sit back and fire .

In a one on one setting the Charger simply can't close against a target that's
faster then it and outranges it without built up terrain to trap it .

Orin J.

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #38 on: 26 December 2012, 15:27:23 »
The Locust  can sit outside of the range of the Chargers small lasers and
plink with it's medium laser for as long as the locust's pilot can stay
awake through the boredom .


i'm gonna assume you mean "as long as the locust doesn't get greedy and presume the Charger pilot isn't able to set up any "easy shots" for the Locust pilot to blunder into to catch an unexpected punch or push for his efforts." here. an "easy fight" is the one you lose primarily through forgetting your opponent's advantages.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #39 on: 26 December 2012, 16:08:11 »
The Locust will win so long as it never ends its movement less than 12 hexes of the Charger on any round that it loses initiative.  And given that it's an 8/12 fighting a 5/8, that's really not hard to do.

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Diamondshark

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #40 on: 26 December 2012, 16:22:18 »
Actually, that's very hard on a 1x2 board. It's going to be very hard to avoid being cornered, especially when you have to rush between the Charger and the edge of the board. And remember that those 6 extra hexes are well within the Charger's running range. One wrong move, and it will close the gap and swat the bug.
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I am Belch II

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #41 on: 26 December 2012, 16:40:47 »
I think I would give it to the Locust. Use the speed to your advantage, get in position to get the best shots on the Charger. If it was a city fight or something where the Locust cant use the speed advantage, then I would give it to the Charger.
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Diamondshark

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #42 on: 26 December 2012, 16:48:33 »
I've been playing through it, and there's another dimension to this that I forgot. Remember that a Charger can build up impressive to-hit mods as well. So far I'm up to 35 turns, and have barely gotten the Charger's armor down to about 80%, and I only have 3 LRM salvos left per launcher. As the Locust, the average TN is 10, in the sweet spot of its LRM's range. The best I've had so far is a 6 two separate times. I haven't been hit yet, but it is nearly impossible with slow, deliberate planning to stay 4+ hexes away after movement, and am focused entirely on running away. In-universe, a Locust isn't going to have that luxury.
« Last Edit: 26 December 2012, 16:50:29 by Diamondshark »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #43 on: 26 December 2012, 17:11:02 »
In universe, a Locust wouldn't be confined to a 1X2 mapsheet area.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

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Kovax

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #44 on: 26 December 2012, 17:50:44 »
The LCT really needs to focus on setting up its moves to run PAST the CGR any turn it loses init, so the CGR wastes 3 MP turning around.  When the LCT wins, it moves to 4 hex range and sets up for next turn's run.  Failure to do so means it gets pinned against a board edge.  At 3 hex range, the CGR has terrible to-hit odds, but at 2 the LCT is in serious danger.

ehlijen

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #45 on: 26 December 2012, 18:24:37 »
"The Charger stays under water until the Locust goes home" isn't a win for the Charger either, it's just a draw.

It should also be noted that the Locust outranges and out-moves the Charger underwater as well, so unless the map gives a perfect sinkhole for the Charger to hide in underwater doesn't really change things.

No one said it would be a victory in and of itself. But the charger won't lose that way until the locust comes close to finish him and then there's probably a chance to strike back due to most water features on maps not being that big.

It's boring, it's slow and it will result in a draw, not a vicotry, but it is a way to not lose. That's the problem BT has sometimes, playing not to lose can be easier sometimes than playing to win.
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evilauthor

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #46 on: 26 December 2012, 19:27:51 »
In universe, a Locust wouldn't be confined to a 1X2 mapsheet area.

In universe, both would be bringing along plenty of buddies who would make up for their individual weaknesses.

Diamondshark

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #47 on: 26 December 2012, 20:27:44 »
Okay, so update on the game, I gave up after 75 turns. The Locust was missing an arm and had no ammo left, while the Charger had about half his total armor left. As the Locust, I was focused entirely on running from the Charger, and even then came within firing range of the Charger once, it just wasn't possible to avoid it any better. The fight would have ended up dragging on further, had I not rage quit from sheer boredom.
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massey

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #48 on: 27 December 2012, 04:14:32 »
Okay, so update on the game, I gave up after 75 turns. The Locust was missing an arm and had no ammo left, while the Charger had about half his total armor left. As the Locust, I was focused entirely on running from the Charger, and even then came within firing range of the Charger once, it just wasn't possible to avoid it any better. The fight would have ended up dragging on further, had I not rage quit from sheer boredom.

That's what I figured would happen.  The Locust just doesn't do enough damage and has virtually zero armor.  The Charger is relatively fast for such a small set of maps.  He can cover 1/2 a mapsheet in one move.  The odds are in a long confrontation (which the Locust will need because he's got next to no firepower), the Charger will have multiple streaks in which he wins initiative 3, 4, or 5 turns in a row.  The Locust will have similar streaks, but it doesn't really matter for him because he's still doing very little damage.

If the Locust goes in with the philosophy that has been championed repeatedly in this thread, of "this will be easy I'm just going to sit back at 12 hexes when I lose initiative, and move up to 6 hexes or so when I win", then he's going to lose very badly.

Doug Glendower

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #49 on: 27 December 2012, 04:53:20 »
Using the original set up, the game will consist of the Charger in the trees hurling insults, and the Locust on the plain mooning the Charger.

Winner? NAPTIME!

Isanova

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #50 on: 27 December 2012, 08:02:51 »
Time is actually on the CGR-1A1's side.

A CGR-1L is a light mech hunter, and wins hands-down. A CGR-1A1 however is a leader of lights. If he ends up in such a situation, he calls HQ for friendly scouts. If he's wise, he ignores him and continues with his job. If he's smart, he leads the pest into a trap.

A Locust can plink and plink well under a good pilot, but it's no Champion or Hussar. Eventually the nasties are gonna show up and you'll have to give up you're "I am the Warrior" routine
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Diamondshark

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #51 on: 27 December 2012, 10:20:41 »
Winner? NAPTIME!

Amen! This is a fight where you say, in-universe, "screw it, command needs to send a Spider down here"
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House Davie Merc

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #52 on: 27 December 2012, 16:37:07 »
Played it out last night as the Locust .

2 maps -Open terrain#1 and scattered woods -both 3/4 pilots .

Locust LCT-1M wins on round 48 .

By that time the LCT pilot was rather intoxicated and getting board .

I don't think I have EVER failed  at a to-hit of 6 or less that many times before .   >:(

When it was over I still had 6 rounds of LRM ammo and the Locust was untouched .


The final hit was a 3rd head hit on the Charger  , but at that point
it had no armor on the arms or side torsos and was in the single digits
in the legs and center torso .
The right arm Small laser was out as well as the shoulder and it was down to 3 internal.
The left arm had 2 actuator hits and was in the single digits for internals .
I was also rolling for crits on any side torso hits front or back .

I would bet that I lost initiative around 70% of the game and I missed EVERY
medium laser shot that was at an 8  as well as a ridiculous amount of
shots at 5 and 6 .

Somewhere around round 45 I messed up and got behind the left arm instead of
it's right and the Charger got to make one small laser shot against me at a 12 .

That was the only shot he got the whole game .


Even with bad die rolls ,loosing initiativemost of the time  ,boredom setting in,
spread out damage, comparably few successful critical hit rolls, and an intoxicated
pilot  the Locust absolutely destroyed the Charger .

In EXTREME slow motion .

I can't believe that I lost initiative so much that I ended the game with ammo left .

If I had connected with the statistical amount of those 5s and 6s that I should
have it would have ended MUCH sooner .

Charger supporters -  You just can't hit what you can't catch .

ESPECIALLY if it can WALK backwards to get behind you and force you to
loose 3 MPs just to turn around to chase him .


I felt irritated and dirty after this game .


So much so that I decided to have another game with Warhammer WHM-6D
versus the Charger in the same situation .

My mind feels  cleaner now and the irritation is gone .
« Last Edit: 27 December 2012, 16:39:41 by House Davie Merc »

breakdaddy

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #53 on: 27 December 2012, 16:55:56 »
Let's put that locust in there with a CGR-SB instead.  ;)


TonUp

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #54 on: 27 December 2012, 17:19:11 »
Using the original set up, the game will consist of the Charger in the trees hurling insults, and the Locust on the plain mooning the Charger.

Winner? NAPTIME!

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Banzai

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #55 on: 27 December 2012, 18:12:13 »
Let's put that locust in there with a CGR-SB instead.  ;)

By that point, it is barely a Charger anymore.  Might as well toss the LCT against a Hatamoto-Chi...

breakdaddy

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #56 on: 27 December 2012, 19:49:42 »
By that point, it is barely a Charger anymore.  Might as well toss the LCT against a Hatamoto-Chi...

Haha, big flyswatter either way!

blackjack

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #57 on: 28 December 2012, 01:36:40 »
Terrain is a big factor, built up city might give the Charger an advantage.
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GhostCat

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Re: Who Would Win: CGR-1A1 Or LCT-1M
« Reply #58 on: 28 December 2012, 09:19:03 »
True, limited mobility and choke points will help the Charger, but, when long range is only three hexes, and movement modifiers alone can add as much as six to the target number, the Charger isn't likely to hit anything.

That's what I've always liked about the Locust, even during the FASA days and Stalkers were Assault mechs most players chose first.  Even if the Locust never fired a shot, just lurking somewhere behind the big mech was usually enough to make the point.

The Locust is a Pest, that's what it's good at.  The longer it has a target of interest, the more dangerous it becomes.  The Charger's only real hope for survival is if the Locust is silly enough to follow it all the way back to it's repair bay and let the Urbanmechs deal with it.

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