Author Topic: Is this legal?  (Read 3117 times)

CloaknDagger

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  • Posts: 3791
Is this legal?
« on: 30 June 2012, 16:23:41 »
Is there anything wrong with this tank?

Code: [Select]
All-Purpose Support

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: X/X-X-X
Production Year: 0
Cost: 21,050,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,974

Power Plant:  300 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 32.4 km/h
Flanking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Armor:  Ferro-Lamellor
Armament:
    1  Long Tom
    1  Large Pulse Laser
    1 Unknown CASE
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      50 points               10.00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             300                      14.50
    Cruise MP:  3
    Flank MP:   5
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         5.00
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    4.00
Armor:              Ferro-Lamellor               AV - 329                 23.50

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     80       
                                          Left/Right   65/65       
                                              Turret     66       
                                                Rear     53       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Long Tom                                     T         20        1        30.00
Large Pulse Laser                            T         10        1         6.00
CASE                                         BD        -         0         0.00
@Long Tom (35)                               BD        -         0         7.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     13    Points: 20
3          2       1       1       0      4     1   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: ARTLT, CASE

Or this:

Code: [Select]
All-Purpose Support IS

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 0
Cost: 19,960,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,076

Power Plant:  300 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 32.4 km/h
Flanking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Armor:  Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  Long Tom
    2  Light PPCs
    5  Light Machine Guns
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      50 points               10.00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             300                      14.50
    Cruise MP:  3
    Flank MP:   5
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         5.00
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    4.00
Armor:              Heavy Ferro-Fibrous          AV - 390                 20.00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     94       
                                          Left/Right   78/78       
                                              Turret     78       
                                                Rear     62       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Long Tom                                     T         20        1        30.00
2 Light PPCs                                 T         10        2         6.00
5 Light Machine Guns                         T         0         5         2.50
@Long Tom (35)                               BD        -         0         7.00
@LMG (200)                                   BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     13    Points: 21
3          2       1       1       0      4     1   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: ARTLT, CASE

Because a Turreted Long Tom can ruin people's day.

Prince of Darkness

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1533
Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #1 on: 01 July 2012, 20:42:28 »
I'm not sure, but I don't think artillery cannons can be mounted in turrets.

Otherwise, they are far too heavy and expensive for what they do- you could easily remake these at 3/4ths the tonnage.  They have way too much armor and aren't using good self-defense weaponry.
Cowdragon:
I'm going to type up your response, print it, fold it in half, and look at it like a I would a centerfold. THAT's how sexy your answer was.

Stormfury

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  • Posts: 4429
  • Death couldn't stop me. How will you?
Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #2 on: 01 July 2012, 20:48:01 »
They both look OK. Nothing prevents mounting artillery in turrets.

I would say that the amount of armour they have is a bit overboard on something that should never be anywhere near the front.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

CloaknDagger

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  • Posts: 3791
Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #3 on: 01 July 2012, 22:28:17 »
No, no, no, you misunderstand, these aren't SPGs, they're MBTs.

They have a massive gun, plus some backup weapons.

Stormfury

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  • Posts: 4429
  • Death couldn't stop me. How will you?
Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #4 on: 01 July 2012, 22:41:39 »
They're still going to get dominated by a "proper" MBT like an Alacorn or Gurteltier, though, which is the problem.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

CloaknDagger

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3791
Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #5 on: 01 July 2012, 22:57:17 »
They're still going to get dominated by a "proper" MBT like an Alacorn or Gurteltier, though, which is the problem.

I'm not so sure about that. ERPPC + Gauss + MML-7 vs Long Tom + 2x LPPC sounds like one has a definite massive range advantage.

Alacorn is an Alacorn. It has much more dakka than armor.

Also, I'm dissapointed I didn't give it a C3 and GECM. Fixed.

Code: [Select]
All-Purpose Support IS

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 0
Cost: 20,690,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,070

Power Plant:  300 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 32.4 km/h
Flanking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Armor:  Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  Long Tom
    2  Light PPCs
    3  Light Machine Guns
    1  C3 Computer (Slave)
    1  Guardian ECM Suite
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      50 points               10.00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             300                      14.50
    Cruise MP:  3
    Flank MP:   5
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         5.00
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    4.00
Armor:              Heavy Ferro-Fibrous          AV - 367                 18.50

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     89       
                                          Left/Right   73/73       
                                              Turret     73       
                                                Rear     59       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Long Tom                                     T         20        1        30.00
2 Light PPCs                                 T         10        2         6.00
3 Light Machine Guns                         T         0         3         1.50
C3 Computer (Slave)                          BD        0         1         1.00
Guardian ECM Suite                           BD        0         1         1.50
@Long Tom (35)                               BD        -         0         7.00
@LMG (200)                                   BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     12    Points: 21
3          2       1       1       0      4     1   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: ARTLT, C3S, ECM

Also, a new version. with a smaller gun.

Code: [Select]
APS-90 IS

Mass: 90 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 0
Cost: 16,769,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,494

Power Plant:  270 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 32.4 km/h
Flanking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Armor:  Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  ER PPC
    1  Sniper
    4  Light Machine Guns
    1  TAG
    1  Guardian ECM Suite
    1  C3 Computer (Slave)
    1  Beagle Active Probe
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      45 points                9.00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             270                      11.50
    Cruise MP:  3
    Flank MP:   5
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             15                        5.00
Control Equipment:                                                         4.50
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    3.00
Armor:              Heavy Ferro-Fibrous          AV - 337                 17.00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     82       
                                          Left/Right   67/67       
                                              Turret     67       
                                                Rear     54       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sniper                                       T         10        1        20.00
ER PPC                                       T         15        1         7.00
4 Light Machine Guns                         T         0         4         2.00
TAG                                          T         0         1         1.00
Guardian ECM Suite                           BD        0         1         1.50
C3 Computer (Slave)                          BD        0         1         1.00
Beagle Active Probe                          BD        0         1         1.50
@Sniper (50)                                 BD        -         0         5.00
@LMG (200)                                   BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     11    Points: 15
3          3       1       1       0      4     1   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: ARTS, TAG, ECM, C3S, PRB, RCN

Code: [Select]
APS-90

Mass: 90 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: X/X-X-X
Production Year: 0
Cost: 18,535,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,568

Power Plant:  270 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 32.4 km/h
Flanking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Armor:  Ferro-Lamellor
Armament:
    1  Large Pulse Laser
    1  Sniper
    4  AP Gauss Rifles
    1  TAG
    1 Unknown CASE
    1  Angel ECM
    1  Active Probe
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      45 points                9.00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             270                      11.50
    Cruise MP:  3
    Flank MP:   5
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         4.50
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    3.00
Armor:              Ferro-Lamellor               AV - 308                 22.00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     75       
                                          Left/Right   61/61       
                                              Turret     62       
                                                Rear     49       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Pulse Laser                            T         10        1         6.00
Sniper                                       T         10        1        20.00
TAG                                          T         0         1         1.00
4 AP Gauss Rifles                            T         4         4         2.00
CASE                                         BD        -         0         0.00
Angel ECM                                    BD        0         1         2.00
Active Probe                                 BD        0         1         1.00
@Sniper (50)                                 BD        -         0         5.00
@AP Gauss Rifle (120)                        BD        -         0         3.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     12    Points: 16
3          3       2       1       0      4     1   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: ARTS, TAG, CASE, AECM, PRB, RCN
« Last Edit: 01 July 2012, 23:11:01 by CloaknDagger »

Stormfury

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4429
  • Death couldn't stop me. How will you?
Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #6 on: 01 July 2012, 23:38:16 »
I'm not so sure about that. ERPPC + Gauss + MML-7 vs Long Tom + 2x LPPC sounds like one has a definite massive range advantage.

One artillery shot that can be quite difficult to land and PPCs out to 18 hexes as opposed to three weapons that can hit past twenty and one of which can load Infernoes or Tandem-Charge warheads is a pretty serious advantage in firepower. The Gurteltier doesn't have that much less armour, and it has a better chance of ripping one of these apart in a stand-up fight. Beyond 17 hexes, anything with artillery has to fire indirectly and deal with flight times, too.

Quote
Alacorn is an Alacorn. It has much more dakka than armor.

The Alacorn is an example of a "proper" MBT, one with serious firepower. The Gurteltier skimps a bit in favour of having more armour, but there are a number of MBT-type tanks that can deploy significantly more dangerous weaponry.

Artillery pieces really just suck up too much mass to be employed on an MBT; if you mount one, you have very little mass left for other things. As an example, the exact same tonnage gets an IS tank two LB-10Xs and a PPC, or two Gauss Rifles, whilst a Clan machine can get three LB-10Xs or stupid amounts of LRM-15s with Artemis.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

A. Lurker

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4641
Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #7 on: 02 July 2012, 02:24:14 »
A proper main battle tank gives you a good, reasonably balanced combination of protection, mobility, and firepower. (That's why I'm only half-kidding when I claim on occasion that the "real" MBTs of the BattleTech universe are the 'Mechs, especially those in the medium and heavy weight classes -- they're generally both tougher and better at handling terrain than tonnage-equivalent tanks and don't skimp on the guns, either.) Anything going 3/5 or less, explicitly including such luminaries as the Alacorn and the Gürteltier, automatically disqualifies itself on the "mobility" front; it may well make a great siege gun and/or defense turret and be generally scary to encounter, don't get me wrong on that, but it's just not an MBT.

Picking an artillery piece for its main weapon only compounds the problem. BattleTech artillery isn't generally accurate enough to put on platforms whose job it is to roll out and meet the enemy on purpose -- while you're still trying to land a shot in a hex close enough to the enemy unit this turn to do some damage, it'll use its own weapons back on you and in all likelihood hit a fair bit more often. Worse, even when you do get a shell right on target...the result may well fall a good bit short of "impressive". A Long Tom HE shot, about the biggest you're likely to get, deals 25 damage in 5-point clusters to everything in its target hex; unless a unit there is one of the types that take extra damage from area attacks, that's not really worse than taking a solid whack from a couple of decently sizes LRM launchers that turn instead, something many 'Mechs and even quite a few tanks can weather easily enough.

So what these really are are self-propelled artillery pieces with extra-heavy armor and some self-defense weapons just in case. Siege guns, as I said. Siege guns that are arguably trying to do too much all by themselves at that -- if they're using their artillery from a proper stand-off distance, they won't need the secondary guns and all that armor plating much, and if they ever actually do find themselves in the thick of things where those might become useful, then the tonnage invested in their heavy artillery piece is largely going to waste. They could really shed some weight by making up their minds on just what it is that they want to be and then properly focusing on that role.

Gryphon

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Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #8 on: 03 July 2012, 21:35:43 »
This could be ignorance speaking, but wouldn't a hit with a Long Tom mean five clusters of five damage, thus five Through Armor Critical (TACs...you wouldn't believe how long it took me to figure out what this one meant, so I am adding here for other people who don't know, and like me are too embarrassed to ask what seems like an obvious question!) seeking effects?

I don't disagree its heavy and inaccurate, but it basically always hits for some damage due to the nature of AOE attacks. If it hits dead on, then it deals all of its damage, and totally slays infantry and battle armor that it hits. Even vehicles fear this weapon to one degree or another, since it means as many as five attempts to TAC them. That's approximately the same as an average LBX-10 hit, only it hits for five times the damage per cluster!

Next, you are now carrying a weapon that will savage aircraft with a flak bonus. This seems like a good weapon system in general here, though I admit it fails to live up to the point kill aspect most MBTs strive for.

So, if this is ignorance, what then am i missing here?  ???

CloaknDagger

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Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #9 on: 03 July 2012, 22:21:11 »
1. Mechs don't fear TACs.

2. LRMs hit in 5 point clusters too.

3. Only Arrow IV can target Aeros.

Jackmc

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Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #10 on: 04 July 2012, 00:11:33 »
3. Only Arrow IV can target Aeros.

Umm, no.


-Jackmc


Prince of Darkness

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Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #11 on: 04 July 2012, 15:25:10 »
1. Mechs don't fear TACs.

Of course they do; I've seen it down a clan assault 'mech in one hit during 3050 game.
Cowdragon:
I'm going to type up your response, print it, fold it in half, and look at it like a I would a centerfold. THAT's how sexy your answer was.

CloaknDagger

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Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #12 on: 05 July 2012, 00:34:33 »
Umm, no.


-Jackmc

Yes, only Arrows can target Aeros. You try hitting a plane with an artillery shell.

Of course they do; I've seen it down a clan assault 'mech in one hit during 3050 game.

Well, okay, they don't fear TACs like every other thing does. A mech rarely gets them, and it doesn't need to roll for motive damage every hit.

Jackmc

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Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #13 on: 05 July 2012, 00:54:15 »
Yes, only Arrows can target Aeros.

Whoever told you this was wrong.  Any "F" type arty weapon can be used as flak which means any BT arty type but a  Cruise Missile can be used.


Quote
You try hitting a plane with an artillery shell.

It's not that hard, an average gunner only needs a 7 to hit.

-Jackmc


CloaknDagger

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Re: Is this legal?
« Reply #14 on: 05 July 2012, 00:57:31 »
Whoever told you this was wrong.  Any "F" type arty weapon can be used as flak which means any BT arty type but a  Cruise Missile can be used.


It's not that hard, an average gunner only needs a 7 to hit.

-Jackmc

Oh, derp. I read the no artillery on fliers rule as no artillery AGAINST fliers!

 

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