HELP.....Jumping In-"Down Time"?

[Ronin Actual]

Running a 1st time "Battlespace" scenario.  Mercs are working as security for a Merchant jumpship.  Ship will jump in system and be set upon by pirates hiding in a small asteroid belt.  The Mercs will need to scramble fighters and get a lance of Mechs on the jumpship hull.  The pirates have a small craft that must try to get past the fighters and grapple the jumpship then offload marines.  They also have a Leopard dropship which needs to drop Mechs and have them try to land on the jumper's hull to cover the marines.  What are/ where are (I do have TO & SO) the rules for how long a jumpship is "down" once it enters a system?  Besides, the vacuum rules, grapple rules and landing on a large craft what other rules would you use?

[NightmareSteel]

Charge-time- StratOps p87- check tables.  Minimum time is close to a week.

[Ronin Actual]

Thanks for the response.  However, what I meant was the time the jumpship's radar/electronic systems are down after the jump.

[cray]

Thanks for the response.  However, what I meant was the time the jumpship's radar/electronic systems are down after the jump.

Such things come on line in less than 1 turn.

Note that 'Mechs do not stick to hulls very well, and have awful penalties in space-to-space combat.

[cray]

Ship will jump in system and be set upon by pirates hiding in a small asteroid belt.

Jump points usually aren't in asteroid belts, unless you picked a really weird pirate point. Standard zenith/nadir points are never in such belts.

Zenith/nadir points are 90 degrees out of the plane of a star system. If you arrive there, you'd have days or weeks to await a pirate attack.

If you arrive at an Lagrange-1 point in an asteroid belt, then you might have the situation you're suggesting, but why would anyone - least of all pirates - respond so damned fast to someone probably tens of thousands of kilometers (hundreds, thousands of hexes) from their base?

[Ronin Actual]

The idea was that the pirate unit would want to try to surprise attack the jumpship while it was recovering from the effects of the jump.  All the fluff from the old Battlespace made it seem like that was "how it was done".  However, it seems from SO that even if the pirates are actively scanning the system they would only have about 4 min. warning for a jumpship traveling a full 30 lightyears with 5 dropships.  With little lag time in system recovery for the jumpship, it doesn't seem like a surprise attack in this manner is plausible.  Is there a way for the pirates to jam the jumpship's detection equipment and approach them with minimal warning for a boarding/capture mission.

[Cannon_Fodder]

If you arrive at an Lagrange-1 point in an asteroid belt, then you might have the situation you're suggesting, but why would anyone - least of all pirates - respond so damned fast to someone probably tens of thousands of kilometers (hundreds, thousands of hexes) from their base?

Because the GM needs them to for an interesting adventure. This is a case of fun needing to trump game rules and rules of physics.

[NightmareSteel]

Justifiable through creative usage of asteroid mining.  Maybe the merchants are picking up a load of ore?

[cray]

Is there a way for the pirates to jam the jumpship's detection equipment and approach them with minimal warning for a boarding/capture mission.

The problem with the scenario is that star systems, or even jump points, are far larger than BT sensor ranges. So a group of pirates twiddling their thumbs at a jump point will be hours or days away from an arriving JumpShip.

Unless you have freakishly accurate intelligence on the arrival point of a JumpShip, you'll never be able to ambush them.

Because the GM needs them to for an interesting adventure. This is a case of fun needing to trump game rules and rules of physics.

This is a case of the GM needing freakish rule bending continuity breaking convenience. It's beyond anything plausible.

[Brother Jim]

Simple.

The ship misjumped and ended up near an asteroid field. The misjump also caused the sensors to go offline for 10 to 20 minuts.

This will allow the scenario to be played out and won't require doing wrong-bad things to the rules.

Note that I am unfamiliar with space rules.

[Ronin Actual]

I like your solution.

[cray]

Simple.

The ship misjumped and ended up near an asteroid field. The misjump also caused the sensors to go offline for 10 to 20 minuts.

Rules violating problems with this scenario:

First and foremost, misjumping into the depths of a star system where you'll find an asteroid belt will destroy the JumpShip and kill the mercs horribly. For example, there's no way to jump into Sol's asteroid belt without violating jump rules.

Second, there's no reason for sensors to go offline during a misjump than in any other jump.

Third, why the ****** would there be pirates waiting for the arriving ship? I mean, look, if you're deliberately targeting a jump point in some pirate system then there's a reason why pirates might try to attack after several days. But a MISJUMP is not going to put you near pirates. Taking a yacht by Somalia might get you hit by pirates; randomly dropping a ship into central New York is not going to have the Somalia pirates attack you.

This will allow the scenario to be played out and won't require doing wrong-bad things to the rules.

Your scenario requires hideous violations of all BT plausibility and rules. What next, suggesting that someone walking through downtown New Avalon City will suddenly be hit by Oberon Confederation pirates?

[cray]

To make this "pirate ambush" work, you need the following:

1) Deliberately attack a pirate system
2) Deliberately aim for a major jump point in the pirate system
3) Deliberately aim for a place very close to pirate jump point facilities, like a recharge station

This isn't a scenario that will happen accidentally. Space is BIG, pirates are rare - 1 in 20,000 star systems rare, and then they get even rarer in the systems they inhabit, which are BIG, too.

[cray]

A related version of how to have the pirates ambush the ship is to have a traitor who can (via HPG) transmit the mercs' ship's travel plans in advance. If you can tell the pirates a week in advance that the mercs are going to destination X with a few kilometers accuracy, THEN you can arrange the ambush as described.

[NightmareSteel]

Vehement, much?

Yeah, I like the traitor idea.  I still think that pirates might hit asteroid mining facilities.

Assume events as follow:

A) pirate problems in the past.

B) Pirates jumped in, hit, ran.

C) Patrols step up, quickly die down.  Mostly unimportant system, WarShips are expensive, blahblahblah.

D) Turns out, the pirates had left some forces lying doggo in system.  Left a small jumpship in system with attendant Pirates and supplies to lie mostly shutdown for a couple of weeks.  Lots of card playing and porn watching (for those of us who are ex-military, you know what I mean).  (In order for this to work, sensors in system would have to suck *balls,* but I figure we're assuming poor system security anyway- hence pirates).

E) Players jump in, merchant here to pick up a load of unprocessed ore that needs to be delivered to Planet V for processing.

F) Fecal matter impacts the rotary air impeller.

G) GM Profit.

[serene void]

However, what I meant was the time the jumpship's radar/electronic systems are down after the jump.

Just kill them with a computer glitch that makes it look as though the radar/sensors are working fine when they really aren't. That's still reaching quite a bit, that nobody catches the problem during a standard diagnostic, but it's at least something that could conceivably happen in the universe.

JumpShips need days to recharge safely, that gives plenty of time for the pirates to see them and actually burn towards them. They might actually not expect the target to be mercs, so it would even be perfectly believable that they think they can just grab another JumpShip they chanced upon.

The mercs can get lucky just in time for fixing the problem, having someone turn on the DropShip's radar, or whatever else fits your fancy to get the tension that you want. Cue battle taking place.

[Ronin Actual]

"Note that 'Mechs do not stick to hulls very well, and have awful penalties in space-to-space combat."

Am I missing something with Mechs on the hull?  Looks like they only make a control roll when the aerospace unit they are on makes a control roll for damage or movement.  Jumpships have no thrust and therefore no movement so no controll rolls.  If the pirates are trying to take the ship and not damage it then there should be no rolls for damage.

[Ronin Actual]

I am going with the traitor/informant scenario.  The jumpship is a Star Lord with the Merc dropship and 4 other dropships owned by different merchants.  This will help flesh out the storyline better.  The next scenario, if they fought off the pirates, was to attack the pirate base (for a bounty).  Now I can have the jumpship attacked, and possibly defended, then an investigation into the event, discover the traitor, interrogation of the traitor and laslty the pirate base attack.  Should be fun!

[cray]

Am I missing something with Mechs on the hull?  Looks like they only make a control roll when the aerospace unit they are on makes a control roll for damage or movement.  Jumpships have no thrust and therefore no movement so no controll rolls.

JumpShips can manage 0.1Gs of acceleration, which is more than a 'Mech can handle while on the hull. Since you have Strategic Operations, refer to pg248 for the difficulties of keeping 'Mechs on hulls.

Also see pg62 for the rules on JumpShip movement.

Finally, note that BattleMechs suck in space-to-space combat. Per pg120 SO, they have +4 to shoot at anything. Per pg24 SO, they have very limited movement.

Just kill them with a computer glitch that makes it look as though the radar/sensors are working fine when they really aren't. That's still reaching quite a bit, that nobody catches the problem during a standard diagnostic, but it's at least something that could conceivably happen in the universe.

That's a good idea. Have the traitor nuke the computer with a virus.

JumpShips need days to recharge safely, that gives plenty of time for the pirates to see them and actually burn towards them. They might actually not expect the target to be mercs, so it would even be perfectly believable that they think they can just grab another JumpShip they chanced upon.

That's true. The disadvantage of that scenario is that while the jump signature can be seen for over 10AU, subsequently spotting the merc ships is a bit more difficult.

Of course, if they don't move from their arrival point then the pirates can hit them.

[rlbell]

The pirates pull a Crazy Jane, thanks to a useful pirate point, a jumpship, and a spy at the recharge station.

Possibly, the pirates run the recharge station as a legitimate business to allow them to be very picky about which jumpships and valuable cargoes "never showed up".

[verybad]

If I were a pirate leader, I'd just read shipping logs and have a few people giving me intelligence for money. Not even necessarilly letting them know what the intelligence was for. Let 'em think it was industrial spying. Even a half-@$$ periphery world will have due times and cargos availalbe beforehand. It's too expensive to just jump into a system and try to sell stuff to the locals, most of it should be bought by on-planet business ahead of time.

People have this idea of pirates as having peg legs, speaking with "arr", a parrot on their shoulder and a hook for a hand. Realistically pirates are going to be picky and successful ones will be very, very good at gathering intelligence and masquerading as somethign other than pirates.

Piracy may not even be all they do, a mercenay may do a bit of piracy on the side, some legitimate freight lines may even have "subbranches" that sell information on rivals, or even stage occasional attacks on their own ships in order to get insurance returns.

Pirates waiting in an asteroid belt will starve to death. Just like everyone else, pirates will adapt to their surroundings. 31st century piracy is bound to have mroe complexity than 16th century piracy.

[Ronin Actual]

So we played out this scenario today, and actully using available rules it was pretty easy to land and fight on the dropship.  It went like this.  We used an old Battlespace space map, with the newly arrived jumpship at one end and the (tipped off and waiting) pirates at the other.  The pirates had one turn of free movement (starting from off board), while the jumpship/crew recovered from the jump.  The pirates sent a fighter screen ahead of a Leopard and a small craft.  Next turn following unit SOP the Merc force launched fighters from it's dropship, and put a lance of Mechs on the jumpship's hull (SO-24 &120).  Jumpship movement wasn't something we factored in
1st-SO-62 only says they can build up thrust and not by how much, pg 63 gives an example of an Invader being able to generate .2/turn but we couldn't find if this movement rate applied to all jumships.  2nd-the only way we could see that the jumpship movement could affect the Mechs on the hull would be from a failed control after the jumpship built up enough thrust (and used it) to exceed it's current SI (TW-93).  As the Merc and pirate fighters continued to dogfight the dropship and small craft burned toward the jumper.   The Dropship slowed to a velocity of 1 headed toward the jumper (we were not using vectors) when it was one hex from the jumpship it droped it's 4 Mechs (SO-22) now with a velocity of 1 and headed toward the jumpship. Meanwhile the small craft moved around for a grapple (TO-201).  Next turn the Mech's velocity carries them into the jumpship's hex where they use jump pack/jumpjet thrust to slow to 0 velocity (The Mechs on the jumpship attempt to enage the spaceborne Mechs but none hit).  The small craft enters the jumpship's hex and scores a grapple on it's first try.  Next turn the Mechs attempt to land on the hull (SO-25&26).  All make it though some had close calls. ( This actully wasn't to hard, with Mechs intact and crossing the jumper for the landing, meant a control roll with a +1 modifier).  After that battle on the hull was played out as a standard ground battle (SO-121).  The marines from the small craft attempted to board the jumper (TO-201-205 & SO 36-37) but were eventully eliminated.  After this and the loss of two Mechs from center torso breaches the pirate spacecraft fled the battlefield leaving the remaining two Mechs to surrender.

[Ronin Actual]

Now a few follow up questions.
If a unit is destroyed on a ship hull does it float away into space? (We said yes, with a 1 in 6 chance that for some reason it could get stuck and possibly salvaged later.)
How do units move on the hull walking/running (as standard groung combat SO-121) or with thrust from jump packs/jumpjets but on a ground mapsheet(ops in zero-g-121)?
If it is like standard movement, can you jump or would that require a landing roll?
Do you use standard weapon ranges and damage vs. other units on the hull or long range, +4 modifier, and aerospace damage values?
Do units on the hull determine attack direction vs. other units on the hull or do all attacks hit the front facing?

[cray]

1st-SO-62 only says they can build up thrust and not by how much, pg 63 gives an example of an Invader being able to generate .2/turn but we couldn't find if this movement rate applied to all jumships.

Thrust values should be in TR:3057. DS&JS put most JumpShips at 0.1G / 0.2 thrust points; that's become the standard for space stations and JumpShips now.

After this and the loss of two Mechs from center torso breaches the pirate spacecraft fled the battlefield leaving the remaining two Mechs to surrender.

Sounds like a fun battle.

If a unit is destroyed on a ship hull does it float away into space? (We said yes, with a 1 in 6 chance that for some reason it could get stuck and possibly salvaged later.)

Agreed. 'Mechs have nothing to keep themselves on the hull in the first place.

How do units move on the hull walking/running (as standard groung combat SO-121) or with thrust from jump packs/jumpjets but on a ground mapsheet(ops in zero-g-121)?

They'd move like fighters in space, using the 'Mechs-in-space movement rules of pg24 SO. Per pg248 SO, there's no way for the 'Mechs to stomp around the hull - their feet wouldn't stick without gravity.

You might be able to adapt 'Mech climbing rules, treating the JumpShip like a skyscraper. Remember, the only "gravity" is from the thrust of the JumpShip, which sets a "down" direction where the engine nozzle is pointed. A 'Mech trying to stand on the side of the ship would find itself trying to stand on the side of a skyscraper in 0.1G (see TacOps low gravity rules). If the engine is off and the JumpShip is coasting, then the 'Mechs would be in freefall and SO space movement applies.

Do you use standard weapon ranges and damage vs. other units on the hull or long range, +4 modifier, and aerospace damage values?

Hmm. Tough question. I think the correct answer would be to continue to treat them as other aerospace units in the same hex, and thus apply the usual space-to-space modifiers to 'Mech combat. 'Mechs simply aren't made for freefall combat.

However, it'd probably be easier to visualize if you shifted to a ground-type combat and viewed the JumpShip as the "ground" even if you were floating over it.

Do units on the hull determine attack direction vs. other units on the hull or do all attacks hit the front facing?

There are rules for docked DropShips engaging threats, but it'd be rather clunky to apply to 'Mechs floating around the JumpShip. You'd probably be better off letting individual 'Mechs figure out their own attack direction.

[rlbell]

If I were a pirate leader, I'd just read shipping logs and have a few people giving me intelligence for money. Not even necessarilly letting them know what the intelligence was for. Let 'em think it was industrial spying. Even a half-@$$ periphery world will have due times and cargos availalbe beforehand. It's too expensive to just jump into a system and try to sell stuff to the locals, most of it should be bought by on-planet business ahead of time.

You are correct, if every two-bit periphery world has an HPG.  Otherwise, news only travels as quickly as the jumpship.  The jumpship does not make money selling stuff to the locals.  It makes money by carrying droppers and has no real concern with what the droppers are carrying.  In fact, it is better for the JS if it does not ask, let alone know, what the droppers are carrying, that way, there is no blame for the JS that brings a less well-heeled pirates' dropship into a system for a raid (Jumpships are rare and it is really important for the Powers That Be that those operating the jumpships are able to keep them in spares, that and plausible deniability is a Good Thing for covert ops).  A jumpship can earn some extra money running low tonnage/ high value goods and contraband, but the local crime boss/pirate leader is the guy paying for shipping, so only a rival is going to try to raid that cargo and the JS crew has already been paid to dump it overboard at the recharge station. 

Peripheral interstellar trading is accomplished by the local chartered DS going to the recharge station and hooking up to a docking collar.  Once the dropper gets to the source world, the trade factor buys stuff.  After loading, the DS hooks up to a docking collar likely to bring it closer to the destination.  A pirate at the back-end-of-nowhere peripheral world might know what the factor was hoping to buy, but will only know the cargo manifest if someone sends that information on ahead and can only know the arrival time after the DS figures it out (trade in the periphery is carried by JS hopping between systems, on spec that there will be DS waiting for transport and a world that does not have waiting DS frequently enough risks being abandoned).

Pirates have to be very picky about what high-value stuff they sieze, as the people that paid for it will either hire mercenaries to protect it next time, or they will stop ordering it.  Successful pirates have to keep from killing the goose that lays golden eggs.  Fencing the stuff is a problem, as it will have to be sent to another system that will pay for it-- the locals will know that the goods are stolen; unless, the pirates only take a small enough percentage for a fence to hide the stolen goods among the goods that made it through.

Along with the peglegs, hooks and parrots, we also have this romantic notion that pirates siezed gold and jewels.  Pirates purchased gold and jewels to keep their wealth portable, but any vessel likely to have any amount of gold, jewelry, or just great stacks of silver coinage was a warship that outgunned any pirate vessel and might carry enough marines to take a pirate haven by storm.  Pirates, unlike privateers with a letter of marque, had only such cannon as they could scrounge, and only a privateer gambling to grab a spanish treasure ship would spend the money to hire the guns and gunners needed to take on a warship and would be quickly bankrupted if he missed a prize.  The likeliest goods fenced by pirates of old were liquor, finished metal goods (mostly nails and horseshoes), and ships, with the ships having the highest value.  In the BTU, JS are hard to sell, as they can only be serviced at a few locations, and a JS with all the serial numbers filed off is obviously stolen.  High valued goods that a pirate could fence anywhere are rare.  About the only commodities that really qualify are battlemechs and dropships (an unscrupulous operator of a JS could make serious coin dropping small mercenary bands where they get ambushed by pirates.  As the dropper is hooked into the collar, modules are hooked into the dropper's sensors to keep them happy and blind long enough for the JS to pull away.  To prevent hard feelings, a different JS shows up to take the victor of the ensuing combat and his spoils to a fence.)

[Ronin Actual]

Posted some of the questions that came up from this battle.  Here is what Welshman gave me: http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,2767.0.html
Looks like combat on the hull of a ship is basically like standard ground combat, with a few tweaks.
Hope this helps anyone else wishing to do a scenario like this, which I highly suggest!

[verybad]

You are correct, if every two-bit periphery world has an HPG.  Otherwise, news only travels as quickly as the jumpship.   

Successful pirates (one that can afford mechs for instance) are going to hang out around shipping routes, not near 2 bit worlds without HPGs. Even without HPGs there will be shipping logs, because people need to ship stuff to and fro, and they need a schedule for that.

If you're waiting for a jumpship to show up in some random spot you're simply going to starve to death. Predators go where their prey is most common.

[Hellraiser]

Successful pirates (one that can afford mechs for instance) are going to hang out around shipping routes, not near 2 bit worlds without HPGs. Even without HPGs there will be shipping logs, because people need to ship stuff to and fro, and they need a schedule for that.

If you're waiting for a jumpship to show up in some random spot you're simply going to starve to death. Predators go where their prey is most common.

Agreed.

A better option for this kind of scenario would be the following.

Pirates are preying on merchant shipping lanes along a known X-Y-Z jump path route between worlds.
The Merchants have hired escorts.
Now this week the Pirates are sitting at a jump point just waiting for any random ship to jump in.
They know at least 1x a week some vessel comes through because its a well traveled route for trade shipping.
When the ship jumps in "by Luck" the vessel is close enough to the pirate ship that the pirates get a couple turns head start on fighter launching & troop mobilization.


Now, the flaw w/ my own idea is the overall situation.
Pirates waiting for a week will have shifts on/off of who is ready for duty.
A merchant ship however is only jumping 1x a week and then recharging, so for that 1 jump I would think all Mercs are strapped into their vehicles ready to launch.
Then after reporting the area is clear they downgrade back to "shifts" themselves for a week of charging the drives.


Another alternative is to have it reversed, have the mercs recharging and unable to jump and have a pirate vessel jump in and launch immediately because its just hitting systems nearby hoping for a juicy target.