Author Topic: aerospace hexes in meters?  (Read 8009 times)

ABADDON

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aerospace hexes in meters?
« on: 20 March 2011, 15:32:16 »
So I just had a look at the given individual weapon rules (StrOps, p.114) and found myself wondering, if 1 hex in aerospace is as long as 1 hex on the ground (30 meters, IIRC) or if possibly different scale applies (after all there is no air drag etc).

Cause I found it a little weird that a LB-X AC 2 can only shoot at 1080 meters distance max and a light naval Gauss at a range of 1680 meters, both setting the limit for their respective scale class.

Stormfury

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #1 on: 20 March 2011, 15:48:02 »
IIRC an AeroSpace Hex is a kilometre across, though planets take up one hex :P
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

ABADDON

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #2 on: 20 March 2011, 15:55:06 »
Oo

Wow... now that is... more than I dared to expect.

So e.g. a Light Gauss rifle could fire frikkin' 34 kilometers? oO

agen2

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #3 on: 20 March 2011, 15:56:56 »
I read somewhere 18km x hex.

ABADDON

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #4 on: 20 March 2011, 15:58:05 »
Ok, now it's getting ridonculous.  :P

Ruger

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #5 on: 20 March 2011, 16:06:48 »
If I'm reading correctly, per Strategic Operations, page 77, each aerospace hex is 18 kilometers side to side (and each turn is 1 minute).

Ruger
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Stormfury

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #6 on: 20 March 2011, 16:12:17 »
Was it ever 1km/hex, or am I having a senior citizen's moment?
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

ABADDON

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #7 on: 20 March 2011, 16:16:24 »
If I'm reading correctly, per Strategic Operations, page 77, each aerospace hex is 18 kilometers side to side (and each turn is 1 minute).

Ruger

Oh, shame on me. Must have overlooked this section, despite using Ctrl+f  #P

But I mean... in the Light Gauss example, that is 612 kilometers firing distance. Compared to ground warfare, that is just plain insane.

Though I'm no physicist either... yet to me these numbers are just enormous.
« Last Edit: 20 March 2011, 16:19:07 by ABADDON »

NightmareSteel

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #8 on: 20 March 2011, 16:28:23 »
Space is very empty. The moon is thousands of kilometers away from the Earth.  Remember that you don't have to deal with those pesky atmospherics, which means that *all* weapons have line-of-sight range, if you want to get technical.  For how this works, allow me to cite a current video game:

Quote
Sarge:  This, recruits, is a 20 kilo ferrous slug. Feel the weight!

Every five seconds, the main gun of an Everest-class dreadnought accelerates one to one-point-three percent of lightspeed.

It impacts with the force a 38 kiloton bomb. That is three times the yield of the citybuster dropped on Hiroshima back on Earth. That means: Sir Isacc Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-***** in space! Now! Serviceman Burnside, what is Newton's First Law?

Burnside:  Sir! An object in motion stays in motion, sir!

Sarge:  No credit for partial answers maggot!

Burnside:  Sir! Unless acted on by an outside force, sir!

Sarge:  Damn straight! I dare to assume you ignorant jackasses know that space is empty. Once you fire this hunk of metal, it keeps going 'til it hits something. That can be a ship, or the planet behind that ship. It might go off into deep space and hit somebody else in 10,000 years! If you pull the trigger on this, you are ruining someones day! Somewhere and sometime! That is why you check your **** targets! That is why you wait 'til the computer gives you a **** firing solution. That is why, Serviceman Chung, we do not 'eyeball it'. This is a weapon of mass destruction! You are NOT a cowboy, shooting from the hip!

Chung:  Sir, yes sir!

edited for grammar/spelling.
« Last Edit: 20 March 2011, 16:31:22 by NightmareSteel »

ABADDON

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #9 on: 20 March 2011, 16:34:05 »
For how this works, allow me to cite a current video game

 ;D

Though I see your point with LOS and missing air drag.

Ruger

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #10 on: 20 March 2011, 16:52:29 »
;D

Though I see your point with LOS and missing air drag.

Plus the effects of gravity are different as well...

In atmosphere on an Earth-like planet, you have air resistance slowing your projectiles, and gravity dragging it down (and slowing it as well, IIRC)...and of course, in the real world, some weapons have an artificially reduced ranged due to the curvature of the Earth. It doesn't do you any good to be able to shoot past the horizon if you cannot see/target your enemies at that range...

Ruger
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Nebfer

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #11 on: 20 March 2011, 18:26:10 »
On Low altitude maps each hex is 500m in size (the size of a regular map sheet), with a movement point representing 180kph in speed.
On the High altitude and space map sheets it's 18,000m per hex, with an movement point being 1,080kph in speed.

Units using the Aerotech ranges at short range thats 3 and 108km respectively, Medium it's 6 and 216km, long is 10 and 360km and extreme being 12.5 and 450km.

Though I do believe their is an optional rule to use the ground range scales as well (not the distance just the number of hexes).
Though Battlemechs and other ground units in space have an effective range of 9 to 18km (their own hex).

cray

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #12 on: 20 March 2011, 19:11:11 »
Was it ever 1km/hex, or am I having a senior citizen's moment?

It was about 6000km per hex in AT1.

BattleSpace reset a hex to be, "a distance would be covered by a ship drifting for 1 turn [60 seconds] after having spent the previous turn accelerating at 0.5G [1 thrust point]." That works out to a bit under 18km, but 18km and 300m/s are convenient approximations.

But I mean... in the Light Gauss example, that is 612 kilometers firing distance. Compared to ground warfare, that is just plain insane.

Yes, but the ranges are trivial compared to the maneuverability of BT spacecraft. Keep in mind that even a "lumbering" Behemoth DropShip or Aegis WarShip can change their distance from their original heading by 27,000 meters in 1 turn.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
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Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

ABADDON

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #13 on: 20 March 2011, 20:37:46 »
So, building warships and PWS's (though I guess the latter being not crucial in that matter) that are solely focused on long/extreme fighting distance (let's assume individual weapon range is given) is basically useless, because to actually hit your opponent, you would need to be at knife fighting distance anyway? Reading several postings covering that issue more or less on this board in the past, I was always under the impression, the more range, the better?

btw, as you might already have guessed, I don't play aerotech (yet), but am quite interested in the matter. So please forgive me, if my questions seem rather "noobish". Hard to judge from my point of view atm :P
« Last Edit: 20 March 2011, 20:45:27 by ABADDON »

cray

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #14 on: 21 March 2011, 06:16:53 »
So, building warships and PWS's (though I guess the latter being not crucial in that matter) that are solely focused on long/extreme fighting distance (let's assume individual weapon range is given) is basically useless, because to actually hit your opponent, you would need to be at knife fighting distance anyway?

I don't follow the question. Building ships designed with long- and extreme-ranged weapons is usually a solid design decision. If you also have a movement advantage then you can keep the range open and avoid falling to "knife fighting" ranges.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Nebfer

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #15 on: 21 March 2011, 21:19:34 »
Well to get an idea just how accurate a B-tech weapon is in space is. At one MOA (one Arc minute or one inch at 100 yards in firearms parlance. Note ONE MOA is sniper rifle accurate) a Warship firing it's Naval PPCs, Gauss Rifles or capital lasers will hit some where in side a circle that is 250m across, at Short range (216km) it's a 60m circle.

Even at sniper rifle quality, it's no wonder why they have difficulty hitting things... Heck at even a .5 MOA your still looking at a 30m circle of built in "inaccuracy" at 216km.

And this is in addition to the issues of your target being able of accelerating (or decelerating) at up words of 10+ Gravity's.

serene void

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #16 on: 21 March 2011, 22:17:55 »
But I mean... in the Light Gauss example, that is 612 kilometers firing distance. Compared to ground warfare, that is just plain insane.

Ground warfare really doesn't rate for space combat. The lack of an atmosphere to get in the way is that much of a game changer. Add in the need for engines powerful enough to get anywhere in a timely matter and ranges just don't mean the same thing.

A ship actively accelerating at 1G will cover 612 kilometers in 350 seconds, a bit under 6 minutes. A tank that has a road speed of 64 km/h will cover all of 6.2 km in the same time. Pretty much any Aerotech craft meant for combat can actually go faster than 1G during combat, so the 612 kilometers end up meaning even less than the 6.2 kilometers mean to a tank.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Quote
Though I'm no physicist either... yet to me these numbers are just enormous.

They are actually on the very small side for a real life leaning space setting. Visual scifi in general is just ridiculously close ranged, which is probably where you're getting the confusion from. Just to give you some perspective, take virtually any battle you've seen on TV, in games, or on the big screen, it'll be rare for them to take up more space than 2 hexes in Aerotech terms during their overly dramatic firing sequences and dogfights. More often than not they'd actually fit comfortably inside a single hex, with lots of room to spare.

There are only a tiny handful of exceptions in visual scifi that actually portray more realistic distances. One I can remember is in Babylon 5 (I forgot the episode, it's an Omega shooting at what looks like deep space to the background of a planet), another is from Star Trek of all places, when they have phaser shots barely miss a runabout just come out of seemingly nowhere because the firing ship is still that far away. Andromeda Ascendant had quite long ranges as well, which usually were quite hard to realize since you just saw a system plot with overly large icons representing ships giving the illusion of closeness.

Situations like that would actually be the norm, in terms of realistic ranges, in space. The average viewer just can't wrap their minds around that, apparently, so the usual approach is to have everything within the same frame to give an easy reference and more drama.

To throw in another Aerotech example, fighter battles at even a lowly 10 hexes, which would still be capital short range/standard medium range, has them shooting at minuscule pinpricks of light as far as the naked eye is concerned. To an audience used to having their WWII in space dogfights that would likely be utterly boring, thus we get the current format in visual media. It's a vicious, self-reinforcing circle.

Space is just that mind bogglingly big. You can fairly easily get into lightsecond ranges (1 lightsecond being the distance covered by light in a vacuum during one second, or about 299792 km, which would be roughly 16655 hexes in Aerotech terms) for realistic space combat before the lightspeed lag starts to really screw with you. And one lightsecond is still only about the distance the Moon is from Earth (well, 1.3 lightseconds, to be precise). The average distance between the Sun and Earth, one astronomical unit (AU for short), takes light a bit over 8 minutes (499 seconds) to cover. The standard jump points for the Sol system are 10 AU away from Earth orbit, which would take light about 83 minutes to cross.

NightmareSteel

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #17 on: 22 March 2011, 03:53:52 »
With the ranges we're dealing with, if you wanted to get ultra-realistic-grognard, all lasers would have the same range and you wouldn't have targeting penalties until you were at about .1 lightsecond out, over 1.6 thousand hexes.  Lasers are speed of light weapons, and as long as the targeting computer locks on, range doesn't matter at all until you are suffering from targeting lag due to you not being able to see where the target actually is.

But hey, it's a game.  Eff it.

(note: still speaking in Aerospace terms only, not ground terms.  Completely different.)

cray

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #18 on: 22 March 2011, 06:26:53 »
With the ranges we're dealing with, if you wanted to get ultra-realistic-grognard, all lasers would have the same range

Size of the focusing system will make a difference. A small laser will be unlikely to manage a damaging concentration at ranges as long as that of a large laser or a capital laser.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

ABADDON

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Re: aerospace hexes in meters?
« Reply #19 on: 22 March 2011, 11:01:22 »
@nebfer & serene void: Wow, thank you. That actually gave quite some valuable insight.