Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV  (Read 5881 times)

sillybrit

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Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« on: 04 June 2014, 16:40:33 »
     I'm going to start by saying that I don't like the Mamono. Personally, I don't think APCs and IFVs have any business being slow and heavy, which typically also results in expensive. I would have much preferred a lightweight OmniVehicle instead, but the design requirements for what became the Mamono dictated that it be a 70 ton "heavy IFV". Bleh.

     Taking its inspiration from images of USMC AAV7s involved in urban combat, the Mamono is an odd DUKW. On the one hand, its slowish speed and the range of its armament is perhaps best suited to the confines of city fighting. But on the other hand, its limited amphibious capability is what you'd expect from a vehicle that operates out in the wild, perhaps far from such civilized inventions as bridges and ferries. Maybe the DCMS intends to invade Venice?

     Sadly, I can't recall the armament for my original design proposal for the Mamono, with that iteration deemed not Kuritan enough. The next version lacked only the Apollo FCS, carrying extra LMGs instead, with last addition leaving the design groaning under the weight of signature Kuritan technology, including some of their latest bells and whistles. Unfortunately, that fancified technology helps rack up the price of what is an expensive battle taxi, equivalent in cost to around five Maxim Mk IIs in C-Bill terms.

     At the core of the Mamono and its impressive price tag is an XL engine. Not too long ago, the idea of a XL-engined vehicle would have resulted in you running for your life from a mob of jeering players, but thanks to Technical Readout 3145 Draconis Combine and its ilk, they're now ten a penny. Of course, the Experimental series and Technical Readout Prototypes had already opened that particular Pandora's Box, but 3145 ensured that it wasn't just a passing fad.

     Able to keep up with most heavy ’Mechs and tanks, the Mamono isn't going to be your first choice for rapidly deploying troops, but neither is it unmanageably slow. The Mamono could have perhaps been made faster, but personally I feel that would both be too little gain for too much cost and would have also made it too similar in concept to the Magi (UCSV). Making it slower simply wasn't an option, as it was already at its minimum acceptable speed in my eyes.

     So apart from passable speed, what does the Mamono get for such an extravagant powerplant? For a start, it saves twelve tons, which allows it to have both thick armor and a heavy weapon payload in addition to its cargo of infantry. Could the Mamono have been built to a lesser standard by using a standard engine instead? Obviously it could, but I already think such a heavy IFV is a bad idea and so if you're gonna be dumb you gotta be tough.

     Protecting the Mamono is an impressive 10 tons of Reflective armor, which is one of the flavors of the month for the Kuritans. While it's a decent choice for battle armor such as the Zou or ASFs like the Koroshiya, I'm not convinced it's a good options for ’Mechs and vehicles. Especially a vehicle with an urban combat focus, with the increased vulnerability from collapsing buildings or meeting Hatchetmen down dark alleys or having to assault a city protected by Destriers.

     Still, putting such flaws aside, the Mamono is a tough nut to crack, able to suffer a pair of Gauss Rifle strikes to any facing without being penetrated, apart from the front, which is even stronger. Added to the raw strength of the armor, the AMS perched atop the turret will hopefully reduce the chance of a mobility kill due to missile swarms. With the CASE providing the cherry on top, the Mamono can at least bully its way through heavy fire to deliver its infantry.

     As you'd expect of a Kuritan design, the Mamono isn't just going to sit there and take abuse, and it's perfectly capable of dishing it out itself. The Apollo-enhanced MRM40 and the coax Snub-nose PPC are only able to reach out to fifteen hexes, which is uncomfortably short ranged for a vehicle unable to dictate the distance the fight will occur. However, inside those fifteen hexes, the Mamono's missiles and PPC can inflict an average of 34 damage per Turn, which is a massive threat to any foe.

     That firepower does create a large bubble that the enemy should avoid, which will prevent closer and thus more accurate engagement of the infantry when they're embarking and debarking. Really, the MRM40 alone is capable of that, and twin Light PPCs would have provided a viable alternative to the Snub PPC, but even then that would have only extended the reach by three hexes. The best solution is to partner the Mamono with something that has the ER PPCs, Gauss Rifles, LRMs, etc to be able to provide long range covering fire.

     Appearing almost as an afterthought, the side-mounted LMGs are what remains of the four guns that once covered every arc, one apiece. As noted above, jymset wanted the Mamono to mount the Apollo, which meant that two of the guns had to go. Some would have no doubt preferred a fore/aft configuration, or perhaps one in the turret and the other forward or rearward facing, but the Mamono got its LMGs on its flanks because reasons. Seriously, it was just a spur of the moment choice with little thought. Sorry.

     As noted above, the inspiration provided by the AAV7 was the main motivator for adding the Limited Amphibious Equipment. As also noted above, it's not something that sits well with an urban combatant. Of course, even a streetfighter still has to get to the city, and the Mamono's swimming capability does mean that it doesn't need to wait around for a bridgelayer if an inconvenient river gets in the way, nor are defenders of ports free to view the shore as a protected flank. The Mamono might be slow as it paddles through the water, but that's more than can be said for most wheeled and tracked vehicles, which would just have to wait forlornly as the Mamonos go off to win all the glory.

     Finally, we get to the key feature of the Mamono: its infantry compartment. This was deliberately scaled to be large enough to carry a squad of assault-class battlesuits for those that prefer to use the optional battle armor transportation rules, but if you use the default rules the Mamono can carry a pair of squads. Instead of one or both battle armor squads, you could opt to carry a foot or jump infantry platoon. A single mechanized infantry platoon in lieu of any other troops would also be possible, but personally I'd view that as the weakest choice compared to the possibility of dual squads/platoons or a combination thereof.

     I like my footsloggers, so I tend to view them as the primary arm of the vehicle/infantry combo, but obviously your mileage may vary. Even though I may grumble about the excesses of such a large IFV, at least the Mamono does deliver plenty of infantry and/or battle armor. The flexibility of the large bay is no small advantage, whether you use it to mix and match or to simply double up. Expensive though it may be, the Mamono can also afford to stick around in the fight once its infantry payload engages, keeping the enemy under pressure to potentially allow the little guys more freedom to maneuver.

     Although the Mamono has yet to spawn any variants, the large infantry bay would be conducive to simple modifications, such as installing Communications Equipment or a Master C3. With the majority of the weapon mass in the turret, that would also present the possibility of a turret swap for a new armament, ideally one that addresses the range issue.

     Like so many other relatively slow designs with a well-defined mission focus, using the Mamono is fairly simple: just point it towards where you want to deploy the infantry and don't stop until you get there, blasting all obstacles in your way. OK, I'm being flippant there, but that pretty much is it. Unlike lightweights such as the Suns' JI2A1, you don't have to carefully thread your way past the enemy to get your infantry through.

     Personally, even with the ability to fight through stiff opposition and deploy under fire, I'd still rather go for smaller, quicker vehicles. With those, you always have the ability to get to a battlefield that a Mamono simply can't reach in time; perhaps even getting to deliver your infantry before the enemy even arrives, and then go back for more. If I need to drop my troops in the teeth of the enemy, then I'd really rather use OmniMechs to carry medium and heavy battle armor to the fight, as there's typically less chance of a mobility kill before the carrier gets to the drop off point. In situations where there's little risk of the APC/IFV being hit and stranded before it unloads the troops, such as very dense urban areas, then you could simply drop off the infantry further away and let them walk into position, equally safe from incoming fire.

     Overall, I feel the Mamono is just too much metal to achieve its goal. If a slow, heavily armored vehicle was still demanded, then it should be no more than 50 tons, so that you can take advantage of light vehicle bays, and thus carry more of them on DropShips. Such a vehicle would obviously be less combat capable than the Mamono, but you already need to think seriously about providing the Mamono with long-ranged fire support, and that same support could provide the firepower the lighter vehicle would be missing.

     I know others may have different opinions and that the Mamono is just the vehicle they're looking for, but even though it's my own creation, it's not the IFV for me, and I'd much rather be using something from across the Davion border.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #1 on: 04 June 2014, 17:00:43 »
I'm struck by the similarities to the somewhat heaver and slower Trajan when you actually compare them.  If I had to guess, the Mamono really belongs in the same operational role - a heavy siege IFV for use in built up areas or constrained terrain to move infantry under fire alongside traditional heavy elements.  Maxim IFVs have their uses but they really don't belong in urban warfare.  A Mamono has a significant concentration of firepower to support the BA and has enough armor to survive at least a modicum of combat - the armor's broadly comparable to the Manticore's with AMS on top of that.  Notably, both of the Mamono's described operations in TRO3145 DC describe ops into the teeth of defenses around a spaceport or with a lance of Mamonos backstopping BA in a roadblock.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #2 on: 04 June 2014, 17:01:34 »
Hey, I didn't know about this. Nice article.

The Mamono seems like exactly the kind of vehicle I've been waiting for, at least on paper, but as I'm reading your article I can't help but notice just how scatterbrained it is.
Sides the fact that I'm not too fond of reflective armour on a groundbound combat vehicle.
What do you bring against massed Infantry?
Exactly. Artillery. Well, and Plasma, but even the reflective won't help it in that case.
Still, a commendable effort.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #3 on: 04 June 2014, 18:18:08 »
I think I'll have to agree with sillybrit and take a pass on this unit. If I want to get my infantry across a water gap there are FAR better options, such as the Maxim, that have several advantages: 1) They can actually move at a decent speed [Limited Amphibious equipped units a limited to one hex a turn, and that's flanking movement] 2) No chance of sinking, any time this unit takes a hit to anywhere other then the turret whilst it's over water means a hull integrity check, go take a look on the MM forums to see how likely you are to fail one of these. The result of failing one of these means you lose the unit

glitterboy2098

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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #4 on: 04 June 2014, 18:44:09 »
i suspect the amphibious ability, in universe, was a "well, we can't get a dedicated urban warfare IFV OK'd, but if we build it with some all terrain ability, they'll OK it and maybe even order enough to make building it worthwhile"

basically something to get the procurement office interested enough to pick it over whatever other vehicles were available/being developed.

Alan Grant

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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #5 on: 04 June 2014, 19:20:16 »
You know what I think this vehicle is great for? Crowd control, riot control etc.

This is the vehicle you put into a city when going fast isn't important. You want to clean out the place block by block, building by building. You want to use this vehicle to cover the infantry doing that. And yes you want to be able to overcome the following scenario, "We were going to use that bridge ahead to cross the <insert name> river, but they blew it up to slow us down....thankfully we didn't need the bridge."

So if slow and methodical is the approach that you'll be taking, this then has some application. But I'd really reserve it for use against lightly armed mobs and the like who aren't going to able to offer up more than an assault rifle or a SRM tube to fight it. So if the enemy wants to engage this thing can stand and fight and free up other more mobile assets for other jobs.

Also probably useful for rolling over barricades. Or holding a defensive position in a city adjacent to that hex your infantry are in.

But yeah, in an open field, maneuver battle where you actually need to move around, I'd be reluctant to use this.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #6 on: 04 June 2014, 20:10:48 »
i wonder how much faction plays a role in these opinions? if this vehicle had been Steiner built, would we still see it as too slow? or would we see it as "just fast enough to keep up with the Assault mech 'wall of battle'"?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #7 on: 04 June 2014, 23:44:04 »
People seem to think city fighting means slow. Even in a city hovercraft are deadly because they can cruise long distances on the pavement where a tank either punches through a building or fiddles around for five turns going around corners.

15 hex bubbles of doom are adequate for city fighting. Line of sight should be restricted. And over most terrain it will be faster than the infantry. Given all IFV tactics are about getting your infantry to a covered location to unload, the Mamono should be able to do that faster than the infantry can walk. Even if it is not the wild dash to cover in the centre of the map we see with hovercraft.

That brings up the main problem. In more open maps it is going to be a challenge bringing the infantry where they need to be without the enemy disabling the Mamono. Initial placement so the Mamono gets a clear hex run to cover is going to be essential.

Can't say the amphib stuff bothers me. At 3 tons it is lightweight and doesn't effect the fighting capability. As a tank the Mamono should be solid enough, cluster effect making it effective against other tanks.


At the end of the day it is not an ideal infantry transport. If the infantry can get there faster on foot they should be doing so. Perhaps the Mamono is better thought of as a MTB that gives a convenient excuse to bring infantry to a game.

Colt Ward

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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #8 on: 05 June 2014, 02:19:38 »
I would think this advanced with their hardened armor turtles providing the long range firepower.  Sure it may not have the dash of the hovercrafts but this is designed for a grinding forward assault- likely when you do not have the assault mechs to commit, just set it along side the assault armor formations.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #9 on: 05 June 2014, 04:08:45 »
I have some questions for the artist of the tank's art. It's no criticism, just curiosity.

Why did you use hexagonal shapes for the 5-tube launchers? Was it because there is no wallpaper group for multiple of 5s? Some sort of concern for a possible sculpt? Some sort of in universe reason?

I just want to know because I find the design very interesting.

A. Lurker

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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #10 on: 05 June 2014, 06:40:24 »
Looking it over, without actually having played with or against it yet...yeah, I'd consider the choice of reflective armor the Mamono's main weak spot. Outside of battle armor, which explicitly gets the perks without the drawbacks, that's just not a good choice for a slow unit in my book, and in this particular context I'm not convinced that I wouldn't consider bog-standard plate an improvement.

The remaining aspects I think I could work with. Okay, it's slow-ish, but then it's not supposed to be purely a transport. Range is somewhat limited, but within what effective range it has it delivers a solid enough punch. (It's also presumably supposed to work side-by-side with infantry, which tend not to be exactly the longest-ranged units in the game either; if the Mamono could take on all comers at long distances itself, that'd be nice for the guys it carries, but wouldn't exactly leave much for them to contribute anymore.) The side-mounted LMGs could probably stand to be dropped, replaced, or at least placed elsewhere, but they're not something I'd lose much sleep over.

It's just that brittle armor that I simply can't warm up to.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #11 on: 05 June 2014, 08:32:13 »
I have no problems with the basic idea of a heavy APC/IFV.  Infantry compartments don't cost BV, so there is additional danger in having them as long as the rest of the design isn't undermined to get that tonnage.  Having a XLE is exactly right in this case, as there is not an additional danger associated with XLEs in vehicles, or a BV change.  I'm glad we're in an era when this sort of thing is finally recognized in canon form.

That being said, I hate this thing.

The weapon selection bothers me to no end.  Apollo FCS is one of the worst ideas in Battletech, and seeing it perched on a MRM40 is a frustrating reminder of how flawed the rules can be.  Better to tinker the tonnage and get 2 MRM20s.  That way the artwork doesn't change and 2 hexes of mines can be cleared each turn.  Let's not pretend those things don't exist.

LAH doesn't bother me.  More vehicles need it to avoid being strategically defeated by bodies of water.  I would never stage a reenactment of Omaha Beach with these things, but not having to wait for the Tonbo to show up and ferry my transport (and platoon) across the river is always awesome.  This is especially true when you also have SM2s trudging their way through the same waves and streams.

Looking it over, without actually having played with or against it yet...yeah, I'd consider the choice of reflective armor the Mamono's main weak spot.

Agreed.  Fast hovercraft are the only vehicles that should consider it.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #12 on: 05 June 2014, 09:18:52 »
Nice write up, sillybrit.  I think this thing more second tier infantry hauler, intended for providing firepower for the infantry units when they run into tight corners.  If wasn't for the expensive, it be better option than tighting up more effective combat vehicles to support your foot sloggers and can openers aka Battle Armor.

Limited Amphibious is useful, if your using maps there bound to be river hex blocking your way.  Least you can get your troops through than being stranded, specially you roll this thing up verses having the convience of choosing your force or your Opforce.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #13 on: 05 June 2014, 09:54:13 »
As many have said, this is definitely an assault transport, in the same vein as the larger Trajan and Aithon vehicles. You use this in situations where speed won't help you, you need to be able to bull your way into close range. Charge straight into the enemy's guns, and unload your troops right in their faces.

I'm not a big fan of the reflective armor in this role, but given the Dragon's chosen playmate these days, it kinda makes sense. A lot of Davion's 3145-era tactics seems to revolve around hitting enemies from all angles, using things like Prey Seekers, Gunslingers, and Scarecrows to harry enemies so that by the time they get to the main line of battle, they're weakened and just smash themselves to pieces against Davion's line of Black Knights, Atlas IIIs, and Destriers. Of all the units listed above, the Mamono only really has to worry about facing Destriers, but those are best dealt with by calling in a squadron or two of Koroshiyas anyway.  The harassers will have a devil of a time stopping it, since the reflec armor renders Gunslingers and Scarecrows all but impotent(and even a Prey Seeker's advanced lasers can't eat through that armor fast enough), so it can easily weather a few salvos and then blow them away with massed MRM and PPC fire. Heck, even the new Black Knights everyone love to love will have an extremely difficult time stopping a Mamono before it can get close enough to offload the troops.

I'm not too worried about the range of the weapons, as open-field engagements will likely see this thing fighting alongside Narukamis and Sehkmets, and backed up by Shillelaghs; long-range fire is covered. Much like my preferred loadouts for command units, the Mamono's guns are geared towards deterring threats from closing with the infantry it's supposed to protect, and quickly eliminating things that do with a brutal dosage of maximum firepower. They can also work well as bunker-busters, as the huge damage potential of the MRM rack is great for rapidly bringing down the CF of heavy buildings enemy troops might take cover in, and inflicting appreciable casualties on the troops inside even while the building still stands.

I might have preferred dropping the amphib gear for an armored motive system but it probably wouldn't fit, and given that many cities are naturally built near rivers or bodies of water, having an IFV that isn't stopped by any pond or canal it runs across is definitely a good idea.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #14 on: 05 June 2014, 10:45:25 »
It looks meh by itself, but if you send 4 of these each with a squad of big nasty battle armor on board into a town... they will know you were there.  It's an assault vehicle.  Think a company of these carrying an equivalent number of BA squads plus a company of assault mechs.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #15 on: 06 June 2014, 09:28:57 »
It looks meh by itself, but if you send 4 of these each with a squad of big nasty battle armor on board into a town... they will know you were there.  It's an assault vehicle.  Think a company of these carrying an equivalent number of BA squads plus a company of assault mechs.

That's how the Dragon says I want your stuff and I'm going to take it now, thank you have a nice day.

Each with TWO squads.  Hell use it with Narukamis and a few fast flankers its great in a vehicle only company.  Pair that with mechs....TASTY
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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #16 on: 06 June 2014, 10:18:33 »
Each with TWO squads.  Hell use it with Narukamis and a few fast flankers its great in a vehicle only company.  Pair that with mechs....TASTY


My first thought would be that it makes a great way to pace a slow Mech force, able to paddle across rivers and keep up with the lance of Mechs it's assisting in guard duty on.

Specifically, Dragon IIs.

Now, that's a Mech that doesn't really need a TON of guarding- it's got a pretty good amount of power if the fight moves to non-artillery ranges. But a platoon of Mamonos loaded with some nasty battle armor- for some reason my brain insists on saying 'Voids', though I know there's better options out there-would go a long way towards insuring that no one tries to annoy your Dragons while they rain fire down on the front lines.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #17 on: 13 June 2014, 01:10:32 »
Hate the design principle mostly due to the XLE (even if they are a dime a dozen these days) and the stupid armor choice (standard, a variant of Ferro-Fibrous or better yet reactive would be preferred), but the idea is sound enough, if not implemented very well. The Apollo system also bugs the hell out of me and I'd, honestly, rather see it removed in favor of adding an extra ton to the infantry bay to allow it to haul a full Drac Platoon of Kishi under the advanced rules (at 3 tons per Squad), seeing as that's their default suit as well as one geared specifically for urban operations. With proper armor, the old inaccurate but more powerful MRM salvo and the capability to haul about a full platoon of light suits, a squad of assaults like the Kanazuchi or a full company of old school footie infantry, it could have been a force to be reckoned with.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week - Mamono IFV
« Reply #18 on: 13 June 2014, 07:03:41 »
Now, that's a Mech that doesn't really need a TON of guarding- it's got a pretty good amount of power if the fight moves to non-artillery ranges. But a platoon of Mamonos loaded with some nasty battle armor- for some reason my brain insists on saying 'Voids', though I know there's better options out there-would go a long way towards insuring that no one tries to annoy your Dragons while they rain fire down on the front lines.

Hi JadeHellbringer, you reminded me of something that I've noticed which wasn't mentioned in the Era Digest: Dark Age (PDF).  I've was read most of the MWDA novels when they came out.  From my impressions from novels, 'Mechs actually did need a lot of guarding during the Dark Age, least in the Republic of the Broken Sphere.   Battle Armor and other assorted troops were trying steal BattleMechs left and right.  Having a slow Mamono slush across a river may not be appearing as your trying to move your forces into position for an attack, but beats Grand Theft BattleMech.  The old MWDA novel, MWDA Fortress of Lies highlighted that in the opening chapters if my failing memory recalls. Swordsworn and future Prince's Champion Erik Sandoval-Groell nearly got his ride stole in opening act. 
« Last Edit: 13 June 2014, 07:15:00 by Wrangler »
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