Author Topic: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem  (Read 5274 times)

lucho

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Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« on: 22 May 2015, 18:37:43 »
Seeing topics on revising the rules for cluster rolls and ammo explosions while preparing to start a new campaign must be just coincidence...

In the campaign that I am about to GM, we are going to use some house rules. Oh gee, everybody has house rules! But here's the one that is new, and we are going to playtest to destruction as it were:

There are two parts to this, the fluff and the actual rule.

The rule: on the heat scale, ammo explosions are replaced with "random shutdowns." Ammunition no longer explodes from the heat scale (the "Energy Deficit scale" now, as I'll explain in the fluff). Instead at each point- 19, 23, and 28 on the scale- the player rolls a TAC, floating crit style, at 4+, 6+, and 8+ respectively. What comes up is shutdown; nothing is actually damaged but the selected component is nonfunctional as if it had taken a critical hit. The inactive component stays shutdown until the end of the next turn, where the player rolls to reactivate in the same manner as shutdown mechs may roll to restart. A failed roll means it stays off until the end of the next turn, when a new roll may be made. Likewise the roll is made according to the mech's position on the heatscale (at 4+, 6+, and 8+ respectively, depending on the current number), thus below 19 the component(s) restart automatically. Some notes:

Engines and gyroscopes that are rolled are treated as having received one or more hits. I.e. a mech at 20 heat rolls an engine slot. The mech now builds an extra 5 heat ("energy deficit points" actually, but KISS ok?) until the slot restarts. Rolling the gyroscope is also the same a a critical hit until restarted.

If a location containing ammo is rolled, the location does not explode. Instead, the ammo feeds are shutdown and the ammo cannot be reused until restarted. This also means that ammo in a shutdown location cannot be dumped until the location is restarted. Gauss weapons likewise do not explode, but are nonfunctional until restarted.

If the cockpit is rolled, the mech is treated as if the mechwarrior were unconscious, and the mech is thus immobile until restarted. The mechwarrior is not actually harmed, nor does he roll to stay conscious (and is probably cussing a blue streak an km wide at this point).

While ammo doesn't explode from the heat scale under this system, critical hits from weapon fire are normal. Shooting at a ton of machinegun ammo with a gauss rifle is never wise.

Ok, the Fluff: Some friends and I were talking about Btech (what else?), and they, being young and somewhat tech-saavy thought it strange that units in Battletech run so hot. "Heat is a sign of inefficiency!" they lamented. And so, we formed a logic to explain it.

The heat and heatscale for units is not literally heat. That's how the media packages it for the general public. What it really represents is energy consumption. Btech units generate massive fluctuations of energy, and the engine technology in the Btech universe can produce power only at fairly fixed rates. They are not well suited to generating massive power in a very short period of time (it's an engine, not a bomb). And so, what the journalists and wannabe mechwarriors call heatsinks are really capacitors that store enough energy to buffer the power demands of combat. Mechs don't build up heat, they accumulate an energy deficit. The heatsinks/capacitors are added to mitigate this, but even so combat tends to burn through the supply like a good ol'boy goes through cheap beer. And so, as the deficit rises bad things begin to happen until there is nothing left: upon reaching 30 on the scale the system shuts down, period.

Under this non-canon physics, heat is not normally a problem for battlemechs and aerospace fighters. Their cooling systems are generally very good at managing the heat load. However, some situations- being struck by infernoes or a Plasma Rifle, for instance- require the system to work harder than usual and thus draw more power. Thus, the energy deficit rises and the unit finds itself in a very similar situation as in canon (it is cold comfort that instead of worrying that his autocannon ammo might explode, the mechwarrior watches helplessly as his sensors shut down while facing a lance of angry Capellans).

If this proves workable, we are thinking of making record sheets with a modified "Energy Deficit Scale." To be easier to visualise, I will simply reverse the numbers. Instead of rising on the scale, you go down, from 30 to 0. No real change, it's easier to read that way.

For the TL/DR crowd: On the heatscale substitute "roll for ammo explosion" for "roll TAC/floating crit" and see what turns off.

Everybody tell me what you think. Too much? Too forgiving? Too wierd? What do you think?
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Louie N

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #1 on: 22 May 2015, 19:31:17 »
Seems complicated, but see if it works for your team.

My one suggestion is this.  Sense an ammo explosion is pretty serious, to make this event equally brutal instead have knocking out one systems have it disable all systems in the rolled location.  If a torso is rolled assume the arm attached is also "shut down".  If the center torso is rolled well the Mech just collapses in a heap (no engine power, and all gyros are down), but it is still alive considering the fall damage doesn't get you. I guess it would be a mini shut down. 


I always assumed heat was caused by the nuclear reactor inside your mechs chest generating the required power.  The more energy that is demanded the more actually heat is generated by passing this electricity through the mech.  For the very same reason we have big fans on high power CPU computers. 



« Last Edit: 22 May 2015, 19:38:33 by Louie N »

pheonixstorm

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #2 on: 22 May 2015, 19:37:32 »
For that furnace of a CPU I would rather it be liquid cooled lol

But at any rate. If this is just a big ol rolling blackout on the parts how would it affect the engines internal heat sinks?

GoldBishop

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #3 on: 22 May 2015, 19:56:03 »
I'm trying to have an open mind about how you plan on running this, so bare with me while I ask a few questions

1) Engine Slots.
How is Heat Management going to affect weapons fire or movement during the phase the "sample slot" is "shut down"?  Will the pilot simply accept not being able to fire one/some of their weapons that phase while cooling down? Can there ever be more than 1 item "reset" as the heat is handled going into the next round?

2) Temporary vs Permanent Engine Crits
What about actual crits (the slot is gone)?  I'd assume reroll for a different location, but what happens when a 'Mech with 2 Engine hits suddenly overheats and has a third or fourth engine slot disabled?  Normally 3 strikes and yer-out... so some rule-bending explanations for that particular situation ought to be considered.

3) Invalid Crit locations.
Some earlier model 'Mechs that come with Standard Fusion engines and lack criticals in a torso location... will you simply reroll the location?  Or let the non-crit stand as a "no effect"?  Also, can a 'Mech's [unseen] Internal Heat Sinks be disabled from overheat as well?

4) Heat-related Equipment.
Depending on what era you plan on starting your game in, do you have plans for Heat-Relief elements such as Coolant Pods, Partial Wings, and water-submersed heatsinks?  I'd imagine you'll end up re-writing the equipment rules to fit your fluff if its to work the way you've outlined.
And don't forget about triple-strength-myomer... probably need to tweak the rules for that as well...

5) Target Audience
Does the group you're playing with/for already accept your alternative system? or are you grooming new recruits into BattleTech from a different game that may have a similar mechanic to dissipating heat (as if you were trying to bridge the systems).
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lucho

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #4 on: 22 May 2015, 22:19:51 »
Yeah, the idea here is a rolling blackout instead of ammo explosions. So...

1 & 2) Engine slots: this is just a blackout, not an actual critical hit. It acts as one- your engine is now acting less effectively, as if it had taken a hit. But it's not real damage, and the component (engine, or whatever) can still be damaged normally. Or come back online afterwards.

It would suck mightily to have the engine or gyroscope fail a ' blackout' roll and right after take a real critical hit  :(
At least one consolation: a Gauss Rifle (whatever kind) doesn't explode when hit while shutdown in this manner. Of course, you've just lost a gauss rifle...  :(

3) we use the floating crit rule for this, so something happens. If the area has nothing, or you roll endo-steel/ferro-fibrous/whatever, then roll again.

4) Yes, we came up with some fluff/headcanon to justify, but like I wrote (not clearly enough, true) heat inducing weapons work normally. This includes TSM: it's fluffed that the new myomers consume a truly heroic amount of power.

5)Once again, like I wrote in the original post, all of this was the result of a conversation with the group. They were trying to understand how a future advanced technology could be so inefficient heatwise. They're already guilty as collaborators  :P

In practice it's not at all complicated: if you go too high on the scale you make a roll: instead of your ammo blowing up, you roll location and the component you roll is nonfunctional until you roll to restart (like re-rolling to restart a shutdown mech or a mechwarrior re-rolling to wake up).
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garhkal

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #5 on: 23 May 2015, 15:54:44 »
This is a very strange way to handle things.  BUt i would love to hear how it goes in play.

And like Louis N, i feel that to make the dreaded overheat be more impactful, it should shutdown the entire location, not just the one crit.
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lucho

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #6 on: 24 May 2015, 07:25:26 »
It all started because the players of my group were just not satisfied with the in-universe reasons for heat (brazilians are born with a special gene to nitpick everything  #P ), so we changed the rules to fit their headcanon. I agree it's odd, but it does give the game a different dynamic  than "Alpha Strike! Now your ammo just cooked off!"

So far, it hasn't bogged the game down; you go up the scale, you roll a TAC. No problem. But actual playtesting has favored Capellan tactics: After a barrage of infernoes and plasma weapons, my mech's hip actuator shutdown right as two squads of battlearmor approached.

Think like a Liao indeed  :o
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GoldBishop

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #7 on: 24 May 2015, 08:09:12 »
Ammo explosions are more violent and preferable in my neck of the woods, but whatever makes the game fun for you and your peers should be just fine :)  Carry on!
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lucho

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #8 on: 24 May 2015, 08:37:59 »
Ammo explosions are more violent and preferable in my neck of the woods, but whatever makes the game fun for you and your peers should be just fine :)  Carry on!

True, nothing wromg with a good BOOM! every once in a while. We just like to prolong the agony a bit longer  >:D ::)
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #9 on: 24 May 2015, 14:39:47 »
That's what CASE is for >:D
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GoldBishop

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #10 on: 24 May 2015, 16:47:09 »
mmmm just had a thought...

if ammo explosions no longer explode from the heat (nor gauss rifle crits)... what happens to the pilot when the bin becomes inaccessible?  Still take 2 pts from the power surge/drain?
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lucho

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #11 on: 25 May 2015, 06:09:24 »
Like I wrote in the original post, if a location containing ammo is rolled and shut down then that ammo is inaccessible until restarted. It doesn't explode (unless it takes a real critical hit, which resolves normally), so no pilot damage. That ammo also cannot be dumped until the location restarts.

Played another game using this and a couple of other house rules. Once you are that high on the heat scale (or that low on the energy deficit scale, as it were ) it really sucks to have heatsinks shutting down  :(
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GoldBishop

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #12 on: 25 May 2015, 07:25:17 »
Under normal circumstances, my interpretation of the "Pilot Takes 2" is from a powersurge/electrostatic-feedback to the neurohelmet [during ammo-explosions].  I was curious if, with your alternate rules, whether or not that would still apply.

I think it should, but I'm not charging you with changing your rule - just explaining my thought-process on the matter.

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garhkal

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #13 on: 25 May 2015, 16:20:42 »
Like I wrote in the original post, if a location containing ammo is rolled and shut down then that ammo is inaccessible until restarted. It doesn't explode (unless it takes a real critical hit, which resolves normally), so no pilot damage. That ammo also cannot be dumped until the location restarts.

Played another game using this and a couple of other house rules. Once you are that high on the heat scale (or that low on the energy deficit scale, as it were ) it really sucks to have heatsinks shutting down  :(

What of life support critical hits?  BTB if one is running hot at a certain temp, and you get too hot, the pilot takes damage. 
Is that still in use?
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The Eagle

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #14 on: 26 May 2015, 11:08:00 »
The rule seems overcomplicated, but that's your prerogative.  My one critique of the fluff justification is the gauss rifle.  It generates such low heat, but is fluffed to require massive amounts of power from the engine.  If you're going to nitpick as you say, then you might also want to crank the "heat" up on gauss rifles to represent the massive power draws they require.
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Jayof9s

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #15 on: 26 May 2015, 12:50:03 »
I like the concept. It reduces some of the inherent 'ammo-penalty' that exists in Battletech and seems like it could be an interesting alternative. It also means that laser-boats don't get to avoid the worst consequence of heat build up (shutting down is bad, exploding is worse)

It does run into the possibility of being overly complex, however, since it is rare (at least in my games) for units to push that deep into the 'heat' scale regularly, I don't see it changing things significantly. I do think some ammo-based designs might be more inclined to push their luck with heat and some energy-only designs may be less inclined.

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #16 on: 27 May 2015, 10:28:21 »
No idea how it would work in play, but I do like the idea.  I've always disliked the way heat is handled in the game, and wished they had went with a power management paradigm instead.  You haven't implemented it in the way I would do it, but I find it conceptually a better fit for the game I'd want to play than the rules as written.
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lucho

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #17 on: 27 May 2015, 14:21:23 »
@The Eagle: Yeah, I've always thought the Gauss to be odd- it should be lighter than it is, but run very hot. For KISS' sake, we just assume that it carries it's own capacitors to quickcharge it, at the risk of blowing up.

It may sound complex, but in practice not so much. You reach the appropriate points on the heatscale, and you roll the number (4+, 6+, or 8+). Success on the roll means you roll location.

In actual play so far, I suppose that the main problem is too many Gaussboats in this group; almost everyone here runs alpha babies. Not enough rolls for shutdown  >:(
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SteelRaven

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #18 on: 27 May 2015, 22:51:30 »
The more I think of it, the more I like this. Power hungry weapons draining the Fusion Engine makes allot more sense than "your machine might accidentally cook you alive on a bad day."   
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monbvol

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #19 on: 27 May 2015, 23:31:13 »
It is an interesting concept and meshes fairly well with some of my own head cannon for explaining why Mechwarriors largely dress the way depicted(cooling vest and as little as possible).  Where I differ is a fluff point of where it isn't that the Fusion Engine can't produce enough electrical power but that the electrical systems can only handle so much power at a time.

lucho

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #20 on: 28 May 2015, 07:38:14 »
Actually, that's what I wrote in the original post. I should have been clearer  :-\ . I agree that- at least in my headcanon- that the problem isn't how much power the fusion engine generates, but how fast it can generate it. Thus, capacitors (heatsinks in canon) that act as a 'buffer' for the electrical system .

I can see this even for autocanons. They don't actually generate much heat, but imagine how much power an active recoil supression system might need. Or a magnetic ammo feed system (what ultra ACs are described as using).
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GoldBishop

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #21 on: 28 May 2015, 08:25:15 »
I know we're only talkin about 'Mechs now... but what about non-heat tracking units that come with Fusion Engines like Combat and Support Vees?

What kind of damage will Flamers, Infernos, and Plasma weapons inflict deal to these types that don't spike their heat scales?
[I'm assuming these have alternate rules to match the OP; I am sincerely asking/curious]
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lucho

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Re: Another House Rule: Heat ain't your problem
« Reply #22 on: 28 May 2015, 14:42:21 »
I know we're only talkin about 'Mechs now... but what about non-heat tracking units that come with Fusion Engines like Combat and Support Vees?

What kind of damage will Flamers, Infernos, and Plasma weapons inflict deal to these types that don't spike their heat scales?
[I'm assuming these have alternate rules to match the OP; I am sincerely asking/curious]

It applies to all units, which in this case means ASF. You don't want to be rolling shutdown checks while in atmosphere, but you will if you're not careful   :'(

Against conventional units (i.e. units that don't track heat), canon rules apply normally.
The reason: for KISS' sake.

The fluff justification: Many people commit two mistakes. The first is that Inferno missiles are some form of napalm. The second is the belief that infernos and plasma weapons were developed to overheat 'mechs. Both are false.

Infernos are actually a form of super white phosphorus; no napalm could burn hot enough to do the damage infernos are capable of. Along with Plasma weapons, the objective isn't to overheat battlemechs. Their objective is to incinerate conventional units. In canon as well as this alternate reality, the rules state that units without a heat scale take additional damage when hit by these weapons. It is an efficient way of eliminating vehicles, infantry, and battlearmor.

Battlemechs can handle a surprising amount of heat, given enough power. Their cooling systems are like the cooler on a CPU; as the temperature rises, the cooler works harder (i.e.  the fan spins faster). For whatever reason, vehicles and battlearmor without fire-resistant armor are unable to use mech-grade cooling systems, and so get directly damaged.

Perhaps this is one of the reasons why battlemechs dominate the battlefield?
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