IS military hardware in the deep

[Offworlder]

A new year has started and a fresh question came to me... are there any IS corporations producing military hardware regularly trading with deep periphery powers in the post Jihad period? If so, what sort of machines, be it mech, vehicle or ASF would they be selling in the deep?

Here I would like to make a clear distinction between deep periphery and the immediate periphery. My impression is that the immediate periphery is well serviced by IS and Diamond Shark merchants. I'm not that sure its the case for the deep periphery.

[Archangel]

A new year has started and a fresh question came to me... are there any IS corporations producing military hardware regularly trading with deep periphery powers in the post Jihad period? If so, what sort of machines, be it mech, vehicle or ASF would they be selling in the deep?

Here I would like to make a clear distinction between deep periphery and the immediate periphery. My impression is that the immediate periphery is well serviced by IS and Diamond Shark merchants. I'm not that sure its the case for the deep periphery.

No.  After all why would they?  The costs of doing business out there not to mention the risks generally outweigh any potential profits that could be made.  Between the dangers of pirates, unknown diseases, lack of potential markets and no way to call for help in case of trouble, the risks are not worth it.  The biggest potential market is the Hansa which is less than welcoming to outside merchants.  Only a few (relatively speaking) brave independent IS merchants regularly travel into the deep periphery.  Even independent arms dealers rarely venture out that deep unless they have already secured payment of their goods.

[Offworlder]

Agreed on the issues of transport and risks involved. However, let us put these issues aside for a moment. Given the manufacturing restrictions that have been put in place post Jihad, would companies etc actually have the 'extra' machines to trade out there?

Indeed I was thinking of this from a Hansa perspective (but not only). Its just been attacked by a Clan/Clans and needs to rebuild and refurbish its military. So let's say as a possible scenario that they actually send their ships to the LA (which I guess would be their most natural trading partner). They are willing to pay with precious metals and stones (since bizarrely the Hansa has no currency of their own but barter for goods - like in biblical times  ;D). Would they meet corporate hostility, state legal issues or other issues and be fobbed off by the corporations? This scenario can be also applied for the Jarnvolk for example.

I'm also thinking of how for example the Axumites would go about it if they ever decide to 'come out'.

[Moonsword]

It's going to depend on what the government thinks, how well the Hansa can establish they're who they say they are, and what they're trying to buy.  A corporation can probably find legitimate or semi-legitimate buyers for BattleMechs if they have export licenses without having to deal with unknown people claiming to represent some government in the back of beyond that no one in the boardroom has ever heard of.  Selling to mercs you can verify in some way or Periphery/ex-FWL governments that aren't your usual trading partners is one thing.  Selling to people who stand a good chance pirates or another power's covert acquistion efforts is a much bigger problem.  Selling to your own House's government performing a sting?  Enjoy your fines, and if they're in a particularly bad mood, some lackeys are going to be doing jail time for it.  Trying to buy more tightly restricted designs - highly advanced or new units not on the general market, Omnis, assaults, that kind of thing - is also going to get more attention than buying a dozen run-of-the-mill mediums would.

It's not impossible, though.  Some of BattleTech's corporations have centuries of exporting behind them and some of the small fry have gone open market with their designs to get sales.  It just depends on whether you seem like a legitimate buyer who's not asking something that's going to get the corporation in more hot water than the deal is worth.

[Adacas]

Theoretically the largest corporations exported to any destination unless there is an express prohibition in the state where they have their headquarters. And but possibly exported models sell licenses

[idea weenie]

I could see the corporation even using a bit of underhanded dealing, where they sell to a third party, that has its warehouses repeatedly raided by pirates.  That third party then buys more stuff, paying with money drawn on gold in a bank account.  Essentially the pirates drop off gold first, the third party buys the stuff, and the pirates raid knowing which warehouses to hit for the stuff.

If the third party is a gold prospecting company, this could serve as a cover.  The board of that third party is composed of a mix of the pirates and regular members, so they can talk directly.


The main company is officially clean, as it just sells stuff to a company that prospects for gold.  Not their fault that their customer keeps getting raided, and the extra sales mean a better bottom line.  This would only work near the Periphery, or at least near a pirate base.

[rebs]

A new year has started and a fresh question came to me... are there any IS corporations producing military hardware regularly trading with deep periphery powers in the post Jihad period? If so, what sort of machines, be it mech, vehicle or ASF would they be selling in the deep?

Here I would like to make a clear distinction between deep periphery and the immediate periphery. My impression is that the immediate periphery is well serviced by IS and Diamond Shark merchants. I'm not that sure its the case for the deep periphery.

There may not be many huge reasons for the big corporations to come out into the Deep Periphery and trade, but trade still exists through smaller partners and cartels that can't share in the larger markets, and so are forced to look for customers elsewhere, or anywhere.   

And as far as I know, Clan Sea Fox will most certainly trade anywhere they can get goods or information.  The Hansa may be out in the cold, but the rest of them aren't.  A trade war between the two trade giants of the Deep is rather inevitable, provided the Home Clans don't mow everyone down to the same stubble.

The future will bring change, though.  Human development brings with it commerce and profit, and I see it being no different out beyond the stars of the IS.  No one passes up money when they need it.  No one will sit on goods if they can move them.  No one will avoid customers if they have no one else to sell to.  Risk exists everywhere.  If pirates of the periphery are frightening, vicious corporate boardroom raiders of the IS are probably just as scary.

Think about it: The major players in the Deep Periphery have already assembled, and many of them are already long-known for their trading. The status quo in the periphery will slowly change with time, but how it changes and what prompts the big jumps that must be taken for development to occur are waiting to be seen.

[Offworlder]

It's going to depend on what the government thinks, how well the Hansa can establish they're who they say they are, and what they're trying to buy.  A corporation can probably find legitimate or semi-legitimate buyers for BattleMechs if they have export licenses without having to deal with unknown people claiming to represent some government in the back of beyond that no one in the boardroom has ever heard of.  Selling to mercs you can verify in some way or Periphery/ex-FWL governments that aren't your usual trading partners is one thing.  Selling to people who stand a good chance pirates or another power's covert acquistion efforts is a much bigger problem.  Selling to your own House's government performing a sting?  Enjoy your fines, and if they're in a particularly bad mood, some lackeys are going to be doing jail time for it.  Trying to buy more tightly restricted designs - highly advanced or new units not on the general market, Omnis, assaults, that kind of thing - is also going to get more attention than buying a dozen run-of-the-mill mediums would.

It's not impossible, though.  Some of BattleTech's corporations have centuries of exporting behind them and some of the small fry have gone open market with their designs to get sales.  It just depends on whether you seem like a legitimate buyer who's not asking something that's going to get the corporation in more hot water than the deal is worth.

Indeed, but for example the Hansa is a relatively well known quantity at this stage (post Jihad) - actually most the deep periphery realms are (maybe excepting the Axumites). So, if they come knocking to buy hardware, I'm sure that some eyebrows would be raised, but say, if such a request came through what passes for 'normal' channels, like a merchant hailing from the state who has business connections or maybe through diplomatic channels, if these exist, I think such a request would be given decent consideration. (At least for the Hansa, they did manage to get their hands on both SL and Omni technology prior to the Jihad, though I suspect the Blakists had something to do with it...)

BTW which small corporations would be more open for such transactions?

There may not be many huge reasons for the big corporations to come out into the Deep Periphery and trade, but trade still exists through smaller partners and cartels that can't share in the larger markets, and so are forced to look for customers elsewhere, or anywhere.   

And as far as I know, Clan Sea Fox will most certainly trade anywhere they can get goods or information.  The Hansa may be out in the cold, but the rest of them aren't.  A trade war between the two trade giants of the Deep is rather inevitable, provided the Home Clans don't mow everyone down to the same stubble.

The future will bring change, though.  Human development brings with it commerce and profit, and I see it being no different out beyond the stars of the IS.  No one passes up money when they need it.  No one will sit on goods if they can move them.  No one will avoid customers if they have no one else to sell to.  Risk exists everywhere.  If pirates of the periphery are frightening, vicious corporate boardroom raiders of the IS are probably just as scary.

Think about it: The major players in the Deep Periphery have already assembled, and many of them are already long-known for their trading. The status quo in the periphery will slowly change with time, but how it changes and what prompts the big jumps that must be taken for development to occur are waiting to be seen.

Very much so. Again, barring the Axumites for now, the Deep Periphery is destined to change with increased contact with the IS and/or Clans. And my impression is that there is a well established trade network reaching out from the IS to the Deep. It may not carry the volumes found in the IS, but may be centred around high value goods. And advanced weaponry is a highly valued commodity at this point, especially since the homeclans have been throwing their weight around.

[Archangel]

BTW which small corporations would be more open for such transactions?

Very few corporations would be interested in traveling into the Deep Periphery.  They would leave that to independent traders.  If the deep periphery states were able to travel to the IS with tradeable commodities then most corporations would be willing to do business with them once the commodities had been turned into a form they would accept.  Of course, few beyond the Hansa have the ability to travel to the IS or could afford any significant purchases of military equipment even if they could.

Again, barring the Axumites for now, the Deep Periphery is destined to change with increased contact with the IS and/or Clans. And my impression is that there is a well established trade network reaching out from the IS to the Deep. It may not carry the volumes found in the IS, but may be centred around high value goods. And advanced weaponry is a highly valued commodity at this point, especially since the homeclans have been throwing their weight around.

Increased contact with the IS?  Well established trade network reaching out from the IS to the Deep?   ???  Where are you getting these impression from?  Few merchants venture into the Deep Periphery so the only real contact most deep periphery states have with the IS (whether on a regular basis or not) is Interstellar Expeditions.

[Offworlder]

If there is a flow of trade from the IS to the Hansa, my guess is that it would be carried mostly by Hansa hulls since they are the ones who had most interest. Given that they supposedly travelled far and wide, I wouldn't put it beyond them to operate at least as far as the Lyran Periphery. Given that prior to the Jihad, it seemed that St Jamais could come and go with some facility to the Hansa and Mundo Nubilar area with relative facility, my impression is that there was some sort of 'regular' contact. In one particular instance, it was said that the Hansa was placing recharge stations close to home, seemingly to accelerate travel or transit time of JS. Of course this does not apply to other deep periphery states who mostly mind their own business and keep to themselves (again with the exception of the Jarnvolk who go around their mysterious business in the deep periphery far and wide).

However, post Jihad and Reavings, I guess the area around the Hansa has become unstable, though they would keep some sort of contact. Even IE is mulling opening an 'office' there. Having said that, I can only see the Hansa sending out its ships to the IS rather than vice-versa, especially since there is a huge demand for them in the IS (ie even periphery traders will probably move in the IS to reap the advantages of reconstruction). So yes, they will have to come knocking at IS corporation's doors.

[Archangel]

If there is a flow of trade from the IS to the Hansa, my guess is that it would be carried mostly by Hansa hulls since they are the ones who had most interest. Given that they supposedly travelled far and wide, I wouldn't put it beyond them to operate at least as far as the Lyran Periphery. Given that prior to the Jihad, it seemed that St Jamais could come and go with some facility to the Hansa and Mundo Nubilar area with relative facility, my impression is that there was some sort of 'regular' contact.

First, St. Jamais is the Precentor Martial of the Word of Blake.  If he wants to travel anywhere quickly his subordinates set up a command circuit for him.  He certainly wouldn't bother with taking passage on a normal trade route.

Second, Mundo Nubilar was a secret testing site.  Do you actually believe the Blakists would establish a fixed route that could be lead an enemy power there?

Third, irregular contact with a single Deep Periphery State and a secret testing site is not indicative of an existence of a large number of trade routes in the deep periphery.

However, post Jihad and Reavings, I guess the area around the Hansa has become unstable, though they would keep some sort of contact. Even IE is mulling opening an 'office' there. Having said that, I can only see the Hansa sending out its ships to the IS rather than vice-versa, especially since there is a huge demand for them in the IS (ie even periphery traders will probably move in the IS to reap the advantages of reconstruction). So yes, they will have to come knocking at IS corporation's doors.

 :o uh...yeah...I'm not...what the...Where did you get the idea that there is a huge demand for them in the IS?    If reasonably priced then certain raw materials would be in general demand but there would be plenty of sources for the same materials closer to home.  Hansa have the disadvantage of not being able to provide a consistent supply of raw materials due to distance and family rivalries undermining the Hansa negotiating position.

[rebs]

The fact that a nation built on trade arose in the coreward/anti-spinward areas of the Deep Periphery is a clear indication that plenty of trade is going on.  I would imagine there are enough trade routes to satisfy demand and provide some profit to those who travel out there, whether it's a small cartel or independent trader.  Or Clan Sea Fox.

I'm not talking anywhere closer to the Homeworlds than the Imperio, of course.  But out there in the dark, from what I understand, the piracy is far less the further out one goes, because there is such poor loot to be had except for the occasional and not exactly regular trader.

The near Periphery is where the real pirate action is at.  That's the gauntlet that must be run.  But if the demand is enough, there will be profits to be made for those who feel shut out of the regular IS and Periphery economy of the larger, known states.  And traders will run that gauntlet if they have to.

[Terminax]

I'll take the middle road. There's more trade than you'd think, but there's less trade than you want. I could see one of the Inner Sphere's mega-corporations delving into something in the Deep but I'd bet you it'd be more of a scam, then honest dealings. They're out to make money after all and the Deep Periphery really doesn't have the population to make money off. Maybe some resource trading but anything you can get in the Deep you can get just as cheap in the Inner Sphere already connected to their existing supply chain so it's really going to be only a sideline. Far more likely that a corporation would use an independent contractor in any case just to put a little distance between them and what's going on anyways.

Example: Now that the Inner Sphere has gone to "peace" and demand for industrial mechs rise, what about the inventories of older vees that are finding themselves left aside. The best models will get picked up by the more backwards Inner Sphere worlds but there'll be tons of inventory new and used left lying around. Sell it in lots to periphery worlds with the caveat "this is what we've got" and then show up every once in awhile (in years terms) with parts that you sell for an extreme price. Hell you probably have to sell them a maintenance package coz none of the yokels know how to fix things anyways. And you can make many variations of that theme alone and we'd call it "business as usual".

[Colt Ward]

I will even name names . . . IMO your best bet will be Son Hoa.  After the Jihad it is no longer a part of the Lyran state though still influenced by the Lyrans and the local regiment gives them some protection afaik.  But . . . they would not be part of any Lyran commitment to the Stoned reforms.

They produce a nice series of IIRC meds, heavies and assaults which could be purchased . . .

I think it might be interesting if the Scorpion empire opens up a trade route to Son Hoa . . . they know where the Inner Sphere is after all and have some JS surplus probably . . .

[Offworlder]

The fact that a nation built on trade arose in the coreward/anti-spinward areas of the Deep Periphery is a clear indication that plenty of trade is going on.  I would imagine there are enough trade routes to satisfy demand and provide some profit to those who travel out there, whether it's a small cartel or independent trader.  Or Clan Sea Fox.

I'm not talking anywhere closer to the Homeworlds than the Imperio, of course.  But out there in the dark, from what I understand, the piracy is far less the further out one goes, because there is such poor loot to be had except for the occasional and not exactly regular trader.

The near Periphery is where the real pirate action is at.  That's the gauntlet that must be run.  But if the demand is enough, there will be profits to be made for those who feel shut out of the regular IS and Periphery economy of the larger, known states.  And traders will run that gauntlet if they have to.

That's my take as well. Plus there is the added bonus that what little piracy exists in the deep periphery near the Hansa/Imperio area, its actively being hunted down by the local powers. Also in all probability, ships move in convoys for mutual protection (at least its alluded to when the Sharks blew up 2 Hansa JS near Chaneline) and the existence of a convoy protection force. Clan ships automatically move in convoys here as well. So contacts may not be continuous, but in all probability, quite a heavy lift is possible.

I will even name names . . . IMO your best bet will be Son Hoa.  After the Jihad it is no longer a part of the Lyran state though still influenced by the Lyrans and the local regiment gives them some protection afaik.  But . . . they would not be part of any Lyran commitment to the Stoned reforms.

They produce a nice series of IIRC meds, heavies and assaults which could be purchased . . .

I think it might be interesting if the Scorpion empire opens up a trade route to Son Hoa . . . they know where the Inner Sphere is after all and have some JS surplus probably . . .

Is Son Hoa still around after the Jihad? My impression is that it was nuked but I'd very happy if it wasn't. Highlanders, Emperors and Warhammer and Manteuffel tanks have no peers in the Periphery. And I can guess that Starcorps isn't exactly the type of corporation that passes up profits coz of politics. The Mad Hatters are still there?

Also wasn't there also a Quicksell plant in the Rim Territories as well (or was it supposed to open)?

[Deadborder]

You're also forgetting a few things.

First, the Hanseatic League is a long, long way from the Inner Sphere. Not just is it remote in terms of sheer geographical distance (Months of Jumpship travel), but there's also a lack of inhabited worlds, recharge stations, support and so on out there. Any travel to and from the Hansa is going to be a long, slow and above all else, risky process. If your ship blows a seal or suffers a drive failure or the like, there's nothing out there to help support or repair your ship. The costs and risks probably outweigh any possible benefit from trading with a relatively poor and thinly populated periphery nation.

The second is that in the post-Jihad, the Leauge seems to have fallen out of contact with the Inner Sphere. Possibly due to the events on the Clan Homeworlds or related matters (such as Escorpio Imperio), the IS have no contact with the Hansa and no idea of what's going on. Given that efforts to travel in that region have resulted in the destruction of any IS ship that comes near there (ISP 3; Interstellar Expeditions vessels had been destroyed without warning) there's very little incentive and a lot of risk.

That aside, in general, the post-Jihad Inner Sphere has turned inwards, concentrating on rebuilding, repairing and making better futures for themselves. Communication and trade with the deep Periphery tapered off, save for exploratory missions as mentioned above. (Era Report 3145, pg 192). The post-Jihad Inner Sphere has no interest in the Deep, and is more concerned about building a better future.

In 3079, Star Corps Son Hoa was producing Gladiators, King Crabs, Warhammers and Wights, albiet at a severely reduced capacity. Star Corps had considered dismantling the plant and incorperating it into the Loburg facility instead to save on costs and consolidate production. I don't know of it's status in 3145.

[Archangel]

Is Son Hoa still around after the Jihad? My impression is that it was nuked but I'd very happy if it wasn't. Highlanders, Emperors and Warhammer and Manteuffel tanks have no peers in the Periphery. And I can guess that Starcorps isn't exactly the type of corporation that passes up profits coz of politics. The Mad Hatters are still there?

Yes, it is still there.  The StarCorps facilities on Son Hoa were badly damaged and the corporation move a significant portion of their manufacturing to Loburg, but as of 3145, the Son Hoa facilities are still manufacturing military equipment for the LCAF.  StarCorps also build a minor manufacturing facility in the Enders Cluster that only manufactures the popular Warhammer.