Poor Man's Scorpion

[Siegfried Marcus]

I have designed a tank for the marginally industrialized.  It features ICE, commercial armor, and a 20th Century weapons selection.  This design is cheap and easy.

Poor Man's Scorpion:
    Mass: 30 tons
    Movement Type: Tracked
    Speed: 4/6 (Engine 8 tons)
    Armor: 3.5 tons (Commercial or whatever is available)
    Armament:
    Heavy Rifle (Turret)
        3 tons ammo (18)
    3 Machine Guns
        0.5 tons ammo (100)

This tank can provide long range fire support for infantry or other units.  It uses an ICE.  The Heavy Rifle does at least 6 damage with 18 range, so a lance of them could drive away light mechs or destroy a bunker.  It uses commercial armor so, it is extremely vulnerable to anything that hits harder than a medium laser.  On the other hand, they are expendable and easy to produce en mass.  I could see using one or two in a lance with real tanks. 

I don't know what it would officially cost, but it must be a pretty big advantage practically speaking to use such low tech.  I think many worlds could produce these locally.  It would be ideal for reasonably industrialized worlds that lack the tech base for sufficient "real" military production.

[gomiville]

I don't have commercial armor in my spreadsheet (and don't have time to add it right now), but here's a version with primitive armor (which is the same as Industrial armor for industrial 'mechs):

30t Tracked CV, Tech C
Engine (120-class ICE, 4/6): 8t
IS: 3t
Control: 1.5t
Heat Sinks (0 Single): 0t
Armor (48pts Primitive, 10/10/8/10): 4.5t
Turret: 1t
Heavy Rifle Cannon (18rnds, Turret): 11t
MG (100rnds, Turret): 1t
Cost: 295,750cb

Everything is tech C or lower.  Nice backwoods armor.

[Random]

I went a little more high tech but on the up side you only have to train one crew member per tank.

Scorpion Lite Tank
IS TW non-box set
15 tons 
BV: 233
Cost: 261,625 C-bills

Movement: 4/6 (Tracked)
Engine: 60 ICE

Internal: 10
Armor: 48
                     Internal    Armor
--------------------------------------
Front                       2       13
Right                       2        9
Left                        2        9
Rear                        2        7
Turret                      2       10

Weapon                         Loc  Heat
----------------------------------------
LAC/5                           TU     1

Ammo                           Loc Shots
----------------------------------------
LAC/5 Ammo                      TU    20

[serack]

Code: [Select]

Grommell GOM I

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/C-F-X-A
Production Year: 0
Cost: 383,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 356

Power Plant:  120 I.C.E.
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor:  Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  Heavy Rifle
    1  Machine Gun
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      15 points                3.00
Engine:             I.C.E. Engine                120                       8.00
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             0                         0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         1.50
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    1.00
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV -  72                  4.50

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     18       
                                          Left/Right   14/14       
                                              Turret     14       
                                                Rear     12       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heavy Rifle                                  T         4         1         8.00
Machine Gun                                  T         0         1         0.50
@Heavy Rifle (6)                             BD        -         0         1.00
@MG (200)                                    BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      2    Points: 4
4t         1       1       1       0      1     0   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: EE, TUR(1/1/1)



[gomiville]

And here's your original design, using commercial armor and the extra MGs.  More vulnerable, but a few grand cheaper than the industrial armored version.

30t Tracked CV, Tech C
Engine (120-class ICE, 4/6): 8t
IS: 3t
Control: 1.5t
Heat Sinks (0 Single): 0t
Armor (84pts Commercial, 20/15/15/19): 3.5t
Heavy Rifle Cannon (18rnds, Turret): 11t
2xMG (Turret): 1t
MG (Front): 0.5t
MG Ammo (100rnds): 0.5t
Cost: 293,150cb

[Siegfried Marcus]

Thanks Gomiville.  I like both versions.  Do you think commercial or primitive armor would be more common?  The commercial armor version mows down infantry, and it is superior to a Scorpion in a head to to head.  The primitive armor version is better suited to adding firepower in an armored fight.  I would shift more armor to the front and hope to survive a round of incoming fire then withdraw once damaged.  If it takes 2-3 large laser hits to kill it, I think I'm doing OK. 

Serack's standard armor version seems designed to get within 6 hexes and trade shots for 6 rounds or die trying.  I would drop half a ton of MG ammo and half a ton of armor to get more rifle ammo.

Random's LAC version is quite cheap if you have the tech.  It would be easy on the supply chain too.  I wonder if commercial armor would be preferable though.

[gomiville]

Thanks Gomiville.  I like both versions.  Do you think commercial or primitive armor would be more common?

I think they're probably both equally common, on low-tech worlds. 

I always imagine commercial armor as thick steel.  It's tech level B, which is WWI-ish, just cheap component materials, layered on.  Very simple and cheap to make, but not really proof against "modern" weapons.  (Commercial armor on a high-tech world might use a different material than just simple steel, but the mass and protection are equivalent.)

Primitive/Industrial armor is fancier laminate armor or something.  Tech level C, mid- to late-20th century tech, so I imagine a 1970's era tank or something.  Also pretty simple to make, and proof against modern weapons, but heavy and inefficient.

In my mind, the commercial armor is something a tractor factory could produce, like simple IC engines and rockets.  Primitive/industrial armor is more intentionally military (unless you're a high-tech planet), similar to many Tech C weapons (standard ACs, standard missile systems, etc).  So, a low-tech world could produce both pretty easily, provided it has a military industry.  If it's a bunch of farmers arming up for revolt, I might stick with the commercial armor, but otherwise, it's a matter of flavor.  (For example, a tank might use primitive armor, but a cheap APC might use commercial armor, contracting the production out to the aforementioned tractor factories.)

I have a love for low-tech BT systems, so I've probably spent too much time dwelling on this kind of thing.

[Black_Knyght]

I went a little more high tech but on the up side you only have to train one crew member per tank.

That still drives me crazy about Battletech! A tank with a one-man crew is insane.

[sillybrit]

That still drives me crazy about Battletech! A tank with a one-man crew is insane.

As opposed to one MechWarrior per Mech?

If anything, what's insane is that we don't have the construction option to apply the sort of technology that allows a single crewmember to pilot and fight a Mech to be able to drive and fight a vehicle.

[Liam's Ghost]

Here's my problem with the basic concept. It's not really all that cheaper than the standard scorpion. I'd kinda want more savings on the poorer man's version of the classic poor man's tank.

That still drives me crazy about Battletech! A tank with a one-man crew is insane.

Is it okay if that tank is walking? :P

Given the established level of automation present in the extremely complicated war machines of the battletech universe, it's hard to imagine a tank needing more than one crewman. (Aside from needing the extra hands if the vehicle throws a track, of course).

[Black_Knyght]

Just MY perspective, but I've always visualized tanks as being a "less evolved" combat vehicle than a Battlemech.

It's always been MY impression that, for all practical purposes, a pilot "links" with a Battlemech and operates it as a kind of "extension" of him/herself. Hence the need for the Neural Helmet to pilot one, for example.

On the other hand, while vehicles certainly could have a high degree of automation, they're less sophisticated that a battlemech and would seem to me to require at the very least a two-man crew to operate (with more being needed the larger and more complex a tank is).

Now, I'm NOT saying this is a flaw in the rules that needs to be debated until numbness. Just that in MY impression of armored vehicles a one-man Abrams+ tank "feels" counter-intuitive and just wrong.

[gomiville]

I understand that's YOUR perspective, but a 15t AFV isn't exactly an "Abrams+."  It's 25% of the mass of an M1.

I tend to fluff all armored vehicles as having at least two crew, but seriously, 15 tons is smaller than any modern AFV except the Wiesel and maybe a few APCs.

[Siegfried Marcus]

It's not really all that cheaper than the standard scorpion.

I don't think C-Bills represents the real savings of the budget version.  I think of the list price as being what it would cost to buy from a major supplier and have delivered.  List price doesn't always reflect actual economic cost.  For example the price of a fusion engine has to be greater during the Fourth Succession War than during late Star League.  In Battletech, they talk about things being "scarce" but that's not always reflected in the price like it should be.  I blame their feudal mindset.

A vehicle like this is designed to be produced exclusively by industry that doesn't meet military specifications.  This is about leveraging the broad 20th Century level industrial base rather than relying on the existing contractor model.  I like to think that such a basic design would be in the "public domain."  That said, it can save real money by dropping to 25 tons.  Remove 2 MGs a ton of rifle ammo and a half ton of armor.

Gomiville, I like the low tech end of things too.  If you like fan-fic, keep an eye out for a story I should be starting here soon.  It is very related to the role of low tech weapons systems and the ideas I am discussing in the paragraph above. 

Also, I agree w/ Black Knyght about mechwarriors having special user interface vs. vehicles.  That's just one more reason why mechs are categorically more costly than vehicles beyond what C-Bills reflect.

[Black_Knyght]

I understand that's YOUR perspective, but a 15t AFV isn't exactly an "Abrams+."  It's 25% of the mass of an M1.

I tend to fluff all armored vehicles as having at least two crew, but seriously, 15 tons is smaller than any modern AFV except the Wiesel and maybe a few APCs.

True enough, though even the failed Weisel tankette had a two-man crew, and virtually no automation to speak of.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/West_Germany/Wiesel_AWC.php

[gomiville]

I don't think C-Bills represents the real savings of the budget version.  I think of the list price as being what it would cost to buy from a major supplier and have delivered.  List price doesn't always reflect actual economic cost.  For example the price of a fusion engine has to be greater during the Fourth Succession War than during late Star League.  In Battletech, they talk about things being "scarce" but that's not always reflected in the price like it should be.  I blame their feudal mindset.

I entirely agree.  I tend to use tech levels pretty heavily in scenarios and design, not only to reflect some abstract "high tech vs low tech" idea, but also as an indicator of production cost and simplicity.  A tech level D tank is a lot easier to produce than a tech level E mech.  And a tech level C tank is conceivably producible by far more primitive worlds in the back-end of nowhere.  Imagine a lance of cheap mercenary 'mechs, supported by companies of locally produced tanks and battalions of local conscript infantry.  One-on-one, the local stuff is easy to defeat, but they use desperation and numbers as a quality all its own.

A vehicle like this is designed to be produced exclusively by industry that doesn't meet military specifications.  This is about leveraging the broad 20th Century level industrial base rather than relying on the existing contractor model.  I like to think that such a basic design would be in the "public domain." 

If not the public domain, then at least easily derived from historical documentation.

That said, it can save real money by dropping to 25 tons.  Remove 2 MGs a ton of rifle ammo and a half ton of armor.

25t Tracked CV, Tech C
Engine (100-class ICE, 4/6): 6t
IS: 2.5t
Control: 1.5t
Heat Sinks (0 Single): 0t
Armor (72pts Commercial, 20/12/10/18): 3t
Turret: 1t
Heavy Rifle Cannon (12rnds, Turret): 10t
MG (100rnds, Turret): 1t
Cost: 238,333cb

A cost savings of 55kcb.

If you want to really go nuts, imagine the other vehicles you could produce using similar equipment.  A 20t wheeled APC/recon vehicle moving at 6/9, carrying some MGs and infantry, or rocket launchers as an ambusher.  A 40t wheeled fire support vehicle moving at 3/5, carrying massed mech mortar/1s or a few mortar/4s.  A 50t tracked "siege tank" moving 2/3 and carrying multiple heavy rifles in fixed forward mounts.  All using the 100-class ICE and using a small group of tech B weapons.  Fluff them as the output of some Stalingrad-esque tractor factory on a deep Periphery planet under siege by pirates.  Early 20th century-style troops fighting Mad Max-style mech pilots, in a dusty and desperate fight for survival.

[Siegfried Marcus]

I have a hover design based on the rocket-apc concept.  Deliver infantry, lay down barrage, resupply.  The wheeled version is slower and heavier, but the machine guns (turret optional) give it some ability to break an enemy infantry position if needed.  Alternatively, forget the MGs and get 2 more rockets and half a ton of armor.  I would try to rush with a wave of them and get in close range for the rockets.  At close range even green crew can hit with rockets. 

Wheeled Rocket-APC
    Mass: 20 tons
    Speed: 6/9
    Armor: 3.5 tons (84 Commercial)
    Armament:
       2 - Machine Guns (100 rounds)
       6 - Rocket Launcher 10s
       3 ton infantry bay

[Liam's Ghost]

I don't think C-Bills represents the real savings of the budget version.  I think of the list price as being what it would cost to buy from a major supplier and have delivered.  List price doesn't always reflect actual economic cost.  For example the price of a fusion engine has to be greater during the Fourth Succession War than during late Star League.  In Battletech, they talk about things being "scarce" but that's not always reflected in the price like it should be.  I blame their feudal mindset.

A vehicle like this is designed to be produced exclusively by industry that doesn't meet military specifications.  This is about leveraging the broad 20th Century level industrial base rather than relying on the existing contractor model.  I like to think that such a basic design would be in the "public domain."  That said, it can save real money by dropping to 25 tons.  Remove 2 MGs a ton of rifle ammo and a half ton of armor.

The thing is, you've just described what the scorpion already is. Your original vehicle isn't really any less sophisticated or easier to build just because it uses commercial armor and a rifle. Everything that makes it a vehicle is still built to the same modern combat vehicle standards as the scorpion, and requires the same level of technology, except its slightly bigger and uses a primary weapon system that doesn't exist in any notable quantity.

If you want to out poor man the scorpion, you can't really stick with a standard combat vehicle, because, well, it's about as bottom of the barrel as you can get while still being a combat vehicle. What you need is a support vehicle.

With that in mind, here's this:

Code: [Select]

Tech Level: D
Mass: 40 tons (9 slots)
Motive System: Tracked
Chassis: 7 tons
Engine: 14 tons (3/5)
Fuel: 1 ton (714.2 km)
Armor: 84 (BAR 5) 3.5 tons
Front:20 Sides:16 Rear:16 Turret:16

Weapons and Equipment
Heavy Rifle (turret) 8 tons
2 Machineguns (turret) 1 ton
Turret Mechanism, 1 ton
Advanced Fire Control, 1 ton
18 rounds Heavy Rifle Ammunition, 3 tons
100 rounds Machinegun Ammunition, 0.5 tons

Note: Chassis, engine, and armor are tech level C

The vast majority of the vehicle is built to civilian/early age of war (tech level C) specifications, the only exception being the fire control system. 

[gomiville]

I know the rules say that primitive combat vehicles need to be written using support vehicle rules, but if you add primitive (or commercial) armor to a combat vehicle, you can end up with something where every component is tech level C, according to Costs and Availability.

Although, you make a good point about the fire control, which is tech D in support vehicle rules, but unlisted in combat vehicle rules.

[Siegfried Marcus]

What you need is a support vehicle.

Yes, I suppose you are right.  Thanks for demonstrating one.  I just use RemLab for my designs,  so I don't do support vehicles.  (I haven't gotten vehicle editor to run)  That tank looks about right for the Stalingrad-esque tractor factory.

I guess I'm thinking of a kind of middle ground.  Your model needs 10 extra tons and is slower.  That's a huge difference.  I think a more modern chassis wouldn't be that hard for most worlds to produce.  If anything, ICE and a sturdy frame should be the technology that transfers best to civilian industry.  Even hovercraft are widely used as civilian vehicles, right?  I think mounting a heavy rifle to a 40 ton tank at 4/6 would be achievable at low tech.  It's basically a Leopard I with a bigger gun.  I just don't see how building a solid chassis would be more of an obstacle than obtaining specialized military gear that is only made on certain planets. 

Maybe there could be an intermediate level chassis for auxiliary vehicles.  Something that represents an effort to achieve high performance from a basic designs.  Rather than a tractor factory, imagine a concerted effort to develop a secondary military industry on certain worlds.  The chassis would be closer to military grade, (with some penalty), but with only locally available weapons and armor.  I insist that getting your officially licensed AC5 is going to be the hard part. 

[Sabelkatten]

Not exactly in the same vein as the OP, but about the cheapest way to get a turreted AC/5 onto the field... Fireplug

[Siegfried Marcus]

I got a hold of Maverick's spreadsheet and used it to come up with a support version.  It is similar to Liam's Ghost's version except that it uses a tech level D engine to get to 4/6.  Ironically, it has a higher sticker price than the Scorpion.

Code: [Select]

Hearthstone
Tech Level: D
Mass: 40 tons (9 slots)
Motive System: Tracked
Chassis: (C) 7 tons
Engine: (D) 16 tons (4/6)
Fuel: 1 ton
Armor: (C) 75 (BAR 5) 3 tons
Front:20 Sides:14 Rear:12 Turret:15

Weapons and Equipment
Heavy Rifle (turret) 8 tons
Turret Mechanism, 1 ton
Advanced Fire Control, 1 ton
18 rounds Heavy Rifle Ammunition, 3 tons


So the question is, how attainable is a tech level D engine?  Level D tech represents Succession Wars era, but it is significantly heavier than a military grade engine.  So I take that to mean a "support" engine could be mass produced for commercial purposes on a level D planet.  At tech level F there is no penalty to support engines, so I imagine that by then, they can make commercial ICE as good as the military version.  At this point, the potential of the ICE has capped out. 

List price notwithstanding, I think a vehicle such as this could be produced in very large numbers by a SW era state with at least one tech level D planet.  If the engine and fire control are imported, the rest is level C so final production could be local on most worlds.  Some versions might use better armor or a D chassis.  Basically, the Inner Sphere has a broad lower-tech industrial base that it could leverage, but apparently chooses not to.  I like to think the failure is social and political, rather than technical.