Large Scale Campaign Play

[pfarland]

I'm looking for feedback from this, it's obviously not finished and requires 2 players and a GM.

It's meant to facilitate large scale campaigns of regimental size or greater.  Not battles of that size though.  Often battles would be uneven, just as in real life.  Logistics is going to be key, keeping supply lines open and mechs with ammo while in the field.

[Alexander Knight]

By "Strategic" do you mean planetary, or interstellar map?

[SeeM]

I doubt that you'll handle regimental scale game, even with those simple mechanics. It's not about calculating costs and supplies, it's about players with too much 'Mechs to blindly sacrifice. It's like giving someone ten D&D characters to spare and he will not care about loosing one or two. I once gave player too much forces and both immersion and gameplay really suffered.

Since then I prefer smaller units, where every bit matters.

[pfarland]

Planetary, mostly continental play.  Imagine the invasion of Europe during WWII.


And while your players might not care, others do.  And sometimes you do need to sacrifice units in warfare, it's the role of a general to make those calls.  While you and your players might not enjoy this level of play (and many others won't as well) some people do.  I've talked to a some here and there.  It's like Strategic Battle Force or Inner Sphere at War, it's not for everyone. 

I'm looking for constructive criticism, not just saying it's not worth it or they don't like it.  I need people that have looked at it and tell me that maybe rule X needs to be changed because of Y or that Z needs to be added because of reason A, etc.

[bluedragon7]

So this is not pure Battleforce or ISaW but rather just the strategy add-on to normal BT? For movement in MM you would create placeholder units to represent the lances/stars/lvlIIs?

[mchapman1970]

almost all my campaigns are regiment size

[pfarland]

So this is not pure Battleforce or ISaW but rather just the strategy add-on to normal BT? For movement in MM you would create placeholder units to represent the lances/stars/lvlIIs?

Yep, for movement you would have the slowest moving individual's speed and only need certain equipment to even show.  Movement type would be the one with the most restrictions for mixed units.  On my to do list is to come up with the place holders.  Or just figure out how to program VASSAL.

I probably need to clarify this in the rules huh?

[Alexander Knight]

Planetary, mostly continental play.  Imagine the invasion of Europe during WWII.

Mm.  I have a VASSAL module that is almost ready for use with decent counters ('mech, armor, infantry, ASF, dropship, jumpship, warship) and interstellar and ACS maps.  It's the featureless ACS map discussed in IO and not the isomorphic maps for individual planets though.

[pfarland]

Mm.  I have a VASSAL module that is almost ready for use with decent counters ('mech, armor, infantry, ASF, dropship, jumpship, warship) and interstellar and ACS maps.  It's the featureless ACS map discussed in IO and not the isomorphic maps for individual planets though.

The one map I have is the world of Greyhawk, lol.  A decent one at the size I was looking for, each hex being 40km.  I'm not using, or even needing the Iso-maps at this level.  Would you be opposed to me trying to use yours as a base?  I've never programed VASSAL before, but I'm pretty sure having a base to start with would help.

[epic]

I am curious why you make all regiments equal 4 battalions rather than the standardized 3. 

[Styker]

I'll check this out.  Most of my battles tend to be multiple companies to battalion sized, with allies and OpFors being regiments to full blown RCT's.  After all, no one is going to invade a world, no matter how small with just a company of 'Mechs.

[pfarland]

I am curious why you make all regiments equal 4 battalions rather than the standardized 3.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Inner_Sphere_Military_Structure#Regiment
Regiments consist of three to five battalions, commanded by a Colonel or General, for a total of one hundred and eight to one hundred and eighty 'Mechs or combat vehicles. Additional support battalions such as infantry are often attached to the regiment as well.

I just chose the halfway point between 3 and 5.

I'll check this out.  Most of my battles tend to be multiple companies to battalion sized, with allies and OpFors being regiments to full blown RCT's.  After all, no one is going to invade a world, no matter how small with just a company of 'Mechs.

Please let me know what you think.  And if you want really big battles you might want to raise the points some as keeping units clustered can lead to not even seeing the enemy.  This is done with the expectation that most of the units will be in Lances possibly with some armor etc.  Of course it also depends on the tech level and weight as well.

[Styker]

Most regiments are close, but not quite 4 battalions: 3 battalions, 1 command lance per battalion, 1 regimental command company= 3 battalions and 2 companies.  Pretty close to 4 battalions.

[epic]

True, but most actually only have the 3 battalions, and usually only "special" units have more than 3 battalions.  Often regiments even lack the command lance/company as part of their standard formation. 

One can see this also in the reason why the FWL standardized battle group has 8 infantry regiments to everyone else's 5.  The reason is actually that the FWL infantry regiment structure IS far bigger than everyone else's - instead of being 3-3-4, they are 4-4-4 in size.  (4 platoons to a company, 4 companies to a battalion, 4 battalions to a regiment).  The designers of ISaW incorporated that into the design of the FWL units thusly. 

[pfarland]

Remember this is supposed to generalize forces.  Plus, you can modify the number to your desire.  If you want, either spend the points elsewhere or just subtract them (144 for a pre-2025 campaign). 

This is meant for you to make up your forces to your specifications while still keeping something of a balance to it.  If you want to only have 3 Battalions, get 3 Battalions.  You can tool them up and trick them out to your hearts content.  If you want more you can do that as well, but you're going to start sacrificing other types of combat and/or support units.


Things still to do:
1)  Figure out how to balance in Dropships.  Probably, the best way will be to figure out the average DS's and the BV and allow a player to choose them by BV.
2)  Figure out how to handle starting supplies and then supplies per month.  (Starting probably a set cost or as many as can be carried while the per month based on how well the campaign goes per strategic capture points)
3)  VASSAL
4)  Figure out how to get replacement Pilots, crews, etc.

[epic]

almost all my campaigns are regiment size

Ditto

[Mukaikubo]

I decided to build a Clan force with these rules to see if I'm getting it. Built a decent, good second-line Galaxy on... 2500 points. Four clusters, one good one for offensive punch, two second-line medium clusters that can support attacks or defend, and a kind of crap cluster with some isorla and even armor only really good for static defense/garrisoning. Galaxy level command trinary, artillery, medical and support assets. Costing it out below:

Cluster #1:
Heavy Omnimech Binary [101 points]- 1 Battlemech/Clan/Veteran/Heavy/Clan Omni star, 63 points; 1 Battlemech/Clan/Regular/Heavy/Clan Omni, 38 points.
Medium Omnimech Trinary [140 points]- 1 Battlemech/Clan/Elite/Medium/Clan Omni star, 60 points; 1 Mech/Clan/Vet/Med/C.Omni star, 50 points; 1 Mech/Clan/Reg/Med/C.Omni star, 30 points
Light Supernova Binary [143 points]- 1 Mech/Clan/Vet/Light/C.Omni star, 38 points; 1 Mech/Clan/Reg/Light/C.Omni star, 23 points; 10 points of clan veteran elementals, 82 points
Elemental Binary [82 points]; 10 points of clan veteran elementals, 82 poitns
Omnifighter Trinary [260 points]; 1 Aero/Clan/Vet/Hvy/C.Omni star, 125 pts; 1 Aero/Clan/Reg/Med/C.Omni star, 60 pts; 1 Aero/Clan/Vet/Light/C.Omni star, 75 points
Cluster #1 total: 726 points

Cluster #2:
Medium Mech Trinary [109 points]- 1 Mech/Clan/Vet/Hvy/2ndline star, 55 pts; 1 Mech/Clan/Reg/Med/2ndline star, 27 poitns; 1 Mech/Clan/Reg/Med/2ndline star, 27 pts
Medium Mech Trinary [78 points]- 1 Mech/Clan/Reg/Med/2ndline star, 27 pts; 1 mech/clan/Green/med/2ndline star, 18 pts; 1 mech/clan/vet/light/2ndline star, 33 points.
Medium Mech Trinary [98 points]- 1 Mech/Clan/Vet/Med/2ndline star, 44 pts; 1 mech/clan/reg/med/2ndline star, 27 pts; 1 mech/clan/reg/med/2ndline star, 27 pts
2 Elemental Binaries [98 points]- 20 points of clan regular elementals, 87 points
Omnifighter Binary [105 points]- 1 Aero/Clan/Reg/Med/C.Omni star, 60 points; 1 Aero/Clan/Reg/Light/C.Omni star, 45 points
Cluster #2 total: 488 points

Cluster #3:
Heavy Mech Trinary [137 points]- 1 Mech/Clan/Vet/Hvy/2ndline star, 55 pts; 1 Mech/Clan/Vet/Hvy/2ndline star, 55 pts; 1 Mech/Clan/Reg/Med/2ndline star, 27 pts
Medium Mech Trinary [109 points]- 1 Mech/Clan/Vet/Hvy/2ndline star, 55 pts; 1 Mech/Clan/Reg/Med/2ndline star, 27 poitns; 1 Mech/Clan/Reg/Med/2ndline star, 27 pts
Light Mech Trinary [84 points]- 1 Mech/Clan/Green/Med/2ndline star, 18 pts; 1 Mech/Clan/Vet/Light/2ndline star, 33 pts; 1 Mech/CLan/Vet/Light/2ndline star, 33 pts.
2 Elemental Binaries [164 points]- 20 points of clan veteran elementals, 164 points
Cluster #3 total: 494 points

Cluster #4:
1 Medium Mech Trinary [65 points]- 1 Mech/Clan/Reg/Med/2ndline star, 27 pts; 1 Mech/Clan/Green/Med/2ndline star, 18 pts; 1 Mech/Clan/Reg/Light/2ndline star, 20 pts
1 Heavy Armor Binary [28 points]- 1 Armor/Clan/Reg/Hvy/Clan star, 17 pts; 1 Armor/Clan/Green/Heavy/Clan star, 11 pts
1 Medium Armor Binary [36 points]- 1 armor/Clan/Vet/Med/Clan star, 22 pts; 1 Armor/Clan/Reg/Med/Clan star, 14 pts.
2 elemental binaries [98 points]- 20 points of clan regular elementals, 98 pts.
Cluster #4 total: 227 points

Galaxy Assets
Command Trinary [290 points]- 1 Mech/Clan/Elite/Assault/Omni star, 90 pts; 1 Mech/Clan/Elite/Heavy/Omni star, 75 pts; 1 Aero/Clan/Vet/Heavy/Omni star, 125 pts.
Artillery Binary [158 points]- 2 stars of Huitzlipoctlis (Artillery/Clan/Regular/Assault/Clan), 158 points
Medical Division [16 points]- 1 star of Carter MERVs (Armor/Clan/Green/Light/Clan), 7 points (note: 10 doctors worth of surgical theaters, 40 of paramedic stations). 4 veteran doctors, treated as 2x 2 platoons of Veteran basic infanty, 5 points. 4 regular doctors, 3 points; 2 green doctors, 1 point.
Technical Division [158 points]- 2 stars of heavy battlemech recovery vehicles (armor/clan/green/heavy/clan), 22 points. 14 elite techs treated as 7x platoons of 2 elite basic infantry, 21 points. 24 veteran techs, 30 points. 68 regular techs, 51 points. 68 green techs, 34 points. Note that I"m not distinguishing mech tech/aerotech/battle armor techs, and also that I have a base of ~3 techs per combat star for this second line unit.
Galaxy Asset total: 622

Total Unit, Clusters 1-4+Galaxy level assets: 2,557 points

So there's that.  ;D Hope that's useful to someone. Maybe me, if I found out I did the maths wrong!

[pfarland]

I decided to build a Clan force with these rules to see if I'm getting it. Built a decent, good second-line Galaxy on... 2500 points. Four clusters, one good one for offensive punch, two second-line medium clusters that can support attacks or defend, and a kind of crap cluster with some isorla and even armor only really good for static defense/garrisoning. Galaxy level command trinary, artillery, medical and support assets. Costing it out below:

Total Unit, Clusters 1-4+Galaxy level assets: 2,557 points

So there's that.  ;D Hope that's useful to someone. Maybe me, if I found out I did the maths wrong!

Without breaking down the math involved (because Christmas) looks good.  It does tell me a few things. 
1) The cost for Techs might need to be increased.  Like a LOT.
2) The overall point cost is about right.  Yeah you used only 2500, but you had a LOT less other assets vs the "normal" IS combat unit.
3) The modifications for Pilot Skill look to be working well.

How does it look to everyone else?  How was it making your force?

And Merry Christmas everyone!

[Mukaikubo]

I"m putting together a combined arms unit for the IS patterned off an LCT, and got confused. What is the basic unit of purchase for aero? I figured it was squadrons for the IS and stars for the Clans (6 aero vs. 10 aero; not quite kosher with the x1.25 modifier, but good enough) but looking in explanations I see it's intended to be flights for the IS (32 points per 2 planes) which seems startlingly expensive compared to clan Aero costs.

[pfarland]

I"m putting together a combined arms unit for the IS patterned off an LCT, and got confused. What is the basic unit of purchase for aero? I figured it was squadrons for the IS and stars for the Clans (6 aero vs. 10 aero; not quite kosher with the x1.25 modifier, but good enough) but looking in explanations I see it's intended to be flights for the IS (32 points per 2 planes) which seems startlingly expensive compared to clan Aero costs.

No, purchased by flight/point (either way it's 2 fighters), 32 points.  You wouldn't have the Clan size modifier though.  The only modifiers would be Tech Type, Experience, and Weight.  I'll clarify that in the next edition, probably put in more examples.  Thanks for the point out there.

[PurpleDragon]

One question, I may have misunderstood your intentions.   

Is this planned to somehow eventually integrate into MekHQ such that you can use the forces you have built up through there? 

[pfarland]

One question, I may have misunderstood your intentions.   

Is this planned to somehow eventually integrate into MekHQ such that you can use the forces you have built up through there?

No, you use it with MekHQ like AtB used to be before it was integrated.  I wouldn't be opposed to integration, but that would be years down the road if ever. 

This is just for making a large unit that would be mostly equal to an opponent's one and then handling the Strategic Movement.  The actual running of the unit would be done in MekHQ and the battles in MM.

[PurpleDragon]

No, you use it with MekHQ like AtB used to be before it was integrated.  I wouldn't be opposed to integration, but that would be years down the road if ever. 

This is just for making a large unit that would be mostly equal to an opponent's one and then handling the Strategic Movement.  The actual running of the unit would be done in MekHQ and the battles in MM.

so good as an OPFOR and scenario generator. 

[Alexander Knight]

The one map I have is the world of Greyhawk, lol.  A decent one at the size I was looking for, each hex being 40km.  I'm not using, or even needing the Iso-maps at this level.  Would you be opposed to me trying to use yours as a base?  I've never programed VASSAL before, but I'm pretty sure having a base to start with would help.

Here's a link to the VASSAL file.  Feel free to ask questions about it.  Might help me with my own programming :)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4240188/StratMap.vmod

[McSlayer]

I think you have some great ideas pf. I think the bigger question is where you'll be able to find a GM with the amount of time available/required to run this sort of campaign.

I once did something similar with my local group, but included build rates and mech factories to build their own forces. Just to give you an idea... think one planet, as you have described, with factories producing the forces (like WWII) for each player. Each player having the option to move his units in as large a sized force as he chooses, with the GM mapping their positions in simultaneous movement.  Engagements based on forces sharing the same strategic hex.

Anyhow, I think its a great idea...

... one which often boils down to more of a panzer blitz feel with heights of chit stacks determining the "fear factor" of a players forces.

[pfarland]

Here's a link to the VASSAL file.  Feel free to ask questions about it.  Might help me with my own programming :)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4240188/StratMap.vmod

It's going to be after the first before I can look at it, we're in the middle of a move.

I think you have some great ideas pf. I think the bigger question is where you'll be able to find a GM with the amount of time available/required to run this sort of campaign.

I once did something similar with my local group, but included build rates and mech factories to build their own forces. Just to give you an idea... think one planet, as you have described, with factories producing the forces (like WWII) for each player. Each player having the option to move his units in as large a sized force as he chooses, with the GM mapping their positions in simultaneous movement.  Engagements based on forces sharing the same strategic hex.

Anyhow, I think its a great idea...

... one which often boils down to more of a panzer blitz feel with heights of chit stacks determining the "fear factor" of a players forces.

TY!  The GM thing, hopefully will go away if we can get VASSAL working for it.  Before then, the GM's time isn't too bad, just a matter of watching and handling movement.

I didn't want to get into having factories producing units though.  Too short a time frame, though you might be able to requisition (buy) new mech and get assigned new personnel.

And I was going for something of a Panzer Blitz feel, but where you won't even know where the enemy is.

[McSlayer]

And I was going for something of a Panzer Blitz feel, but where you won't even know where the enemy is.

Yes I did that too... no one knows where the enemy is (supposedly)... but... when a city or location is captured, it gets easier to find the enemy (assuming he tries to hold the goods), and then the players can just escalate the conflict from there. He He... and therefore the Chit Stacks demolish the held ground until someone runs through his chits.  You just have to hope that your supply lines are better than his. LOL  :D

[BLOODWOLF]

For planetary maps you could try http://topps.diku.dk/torbenm/maps.msp and just use gimp or something to mock up the map and add icons for things until AJ makes us something like it for HQ.

Ziliang (my homeworld in HQ "federated suns armored calvary") and where Im doing pre-deployment work-ups on planet.


I figure each grid is 2000km x 2000km and takes a mech or vee unit about a week to move one grid, foot-only infantry 2 weeks.