Curious - can you Refusal a Safcon?

[Nerhesi]

Lets say as a Raven with superior naval forces, I do not want your <insert almost any other clan> ground-poundingly-superior buttocks landing unmolested, it is perfectly within my right to challenge Safcon?

Or must Safcon be accepted in the first place and not a guaranteed thing when asked for?

Thanks,

[Stormfury]

Safcon must be offered by the defender or requested by the attacker.

It is almost always granted by unspoken assent by both parties; if, as a Raven you're in trouble against an elite ground force from another Clan, you can simply bid a Point of ASFs, or your WarShip, or a game of chess, or whatever for the Trial.

[Nerhesi]

Safcon must be offered by the defender or requested by the attacker.

It is almost always granted by unspoken assent by both parties; if, as a Raven you're in trouble against an elite ground force from another Clan, you can simply bid a Point of ASFs, or your WarShip, or a game of chess, or whatever for the Trial.

Thanks.

[StCptMara]

Also, while Safcon can be requested by the attacker, or offered by the Defender, neither HAS to accept it.
If someone asks you for SafCon, you can always just say "No." It is a courtesy, not a requirement.

[Deadborder]

Remember this much: Never gamble with a Snow Raven when death is on the line

[StCptMara]

Remember this much: Never gamble with a Snow Raven when death is on the line

And, in space, death is ALWAYS on the line...

[Diablo48]

While you are allowed to deny safcon and blast them to pieces with a pile of WarShips, this will piss the other side off and could get you in serious trouble if you do it with any regularity so you had better have a very good reason for doing this.

[StCptMara]

While you are allowed to deny safcon and blast them to pieces with a pile of WarShips, this will piss the other side off and could get you in serious trouble if you do it with any regularity so you had better have a very good reason for doing this.

The Cobras apparently do it fairly often in the Tanite Worlds..remmeber, no-one who goes there other then Cobras and Adders ever comes back...

[Diablo48]

The Cobras apparently do it fairly often in the Tanite Worlds..remmeber, no-one who goes there other then Cobras and Adders ever comes back...

True, but that situation is a little different from the Ravens shooting up some random DropShips on their way to try to take a factory in the heart of Clan space.

[StCptMara]

True, but that situation is a little different from the Ravens shooting up some random DropShips on their way to try to take a factory in the heart of Clan space.

Is it really? It is stilla Clan Holding, so it should, really, be pretty much the same.

[Stormfury]

I guess it depends on the value of the prize.

It is incumbent on the defender to station a force in keeping with the worth of it to keep it safe; the Cloud Cobras regard it as a vast prize, and anyone who wishes to take it from them must make their attack accordingly.

So far, nobody has been curious enough to find out what's happening there; it obviously holds little or no actual material or military value, because otherwise the Cobras would have a force larger than they do possess. As such, few can be bothered to investigate.

Something is probably going on out there, but I'd expect it to be related to the Dark Caste or be library/hermit worlds rather than anything the other Clans would see as immediately useful any way.

[AnubisZombie]

From the various tidbits I get the impression that the Ravens ignore Safcon as a matter of course and every1 pretty much accepts that. To the point were using the word Safcon and "Snow Raven" in the same sentence in a clan briefing room would first evoke milk exiting nose levels of laughter. To be followed by calls for a brain scan.

The fact that they can get away with this probably relies heavily on the fact that they hold all the big ship yards and do allot of the Clan wide warship maintenance. If not for that fact then yeah they'd probably get called out on popping droppers with warships. As it stands before they got run out of Clan space all you'd accomplish calling them on it, in the clan council, is suddenly finding your Clan lacking in places to repair your mysteriously-newly battle damaged precious few SL warships.

As far as Safcon with any1 who is not SR it seems as long as you're not IS or "THE" rival clan than you're pretty much good.

[Diablo48]

Is it really? It is stilla Clan Holding, so it should, really, be pretty much the same.

I was mostly thinking in terms of visibility/accessibility.  People might get frustrated by what happens over in the Tanite Worlds, but it would be less obvious than if the Ravens blasted DropShips above a planet like Strana Mechty.

[StCptMara]

I was mostly thinking in terms of visibility/accessibility.  People might get frustrated by what happens over in the Tanite Worlds, but it would be less obvious than if the Ravens blasted DropShips above a planet like Strana Mechty.

Which only has Honour Holdings, anyway...I do not think anyone would care if you made the habit of blasting dropships,
though, over your own worlds, especially if you go ahead and bid your warship or local naval assets in the defense, and then
refuse SafCon. If the people who challenged you raise a stink..well, they bloody well knew what they were getting into. They chose
to ignore it.

[Krieghund]

I don't know about the Ravens auto declining safcon. While yes the Vipers didn't even request it, the Falcons were granted it when asked. I think it's about who the Ravens respect and who they don't.

[Dragon Cat]

Best example of how much to expect safcon if from the Mercer-class DropShip's fluff - it was designed by the Vipers to counter the Ravens - although not sure how it would counter a WarShip or six...

[Akalabeth]

Just because a group is refusing safcon doesn't mean the warships will necessarily come out to play anyway. I can see for example both Cloud Cobra and Snow Raven using their aerospace forces to contest any dropship landings. Though of course those same fighters can be used against ground forces just as effectively.

[Fatebringer]

((CAW CAW!))

A Raven here ;) Although we Ravens talk about Orbital Bombardments all the time, this does not mean that we do not have honor or respect the other Clans.

My personal opinion of Safcon is that most of the time. I grant it. I think Stormfury and Akalabeth really nailed it on the head about customs of minor trials over non-threatening endeavors. But when someone shows up on your doorstep with an invasion force like the Vipers did when they came to Lum, that is a different story. They did not come to Lum to play nice and we had no intentions of letting them pretend to follow customs until after they had a chance to land and we could no longer deny them Safcon.

In the RP I usually do, most people do not come to trail for the Lum facilities because they know they will face a defensive naval or ASF battle. They usually come for training or negotiations for supplies, repairs and to build new forces. I believe that is why we are considered a "Merchant Factor". Whatever happens in the homeworlds during the future, I doubt Safcon will be granted anywhere, at least that's what it sounds like from the horror stories :P

[joechummer]

I thought it was the Cobras who always leave their "deny safcon" setting checked?

Or maybe that default setting is common to all small-ground-forces-but-large-aerospace-arm Clans...?

[Nerhesi]

Late response I know and it seems that safecon may or may not be granted to part of the force only?

Example, Total War - the fiction regarding the thrice-defeated Raven Aerospace pilot.  He mentions Safecon was granted to the warship but the dropships were fair game.   This is the large-beginning-of-chapter-fiction with half-page raven symbol.  Beginning of aerospace combat I think...

[David CGB]

you can, but why would you risk the warriors before they can fight, unless you are Clan Snow Raven.......

[Nerhesi]

you can, but why would you risk the warriors before they can fight, unless you are Clan Snow Raven.......

Excellent point, and so:

Remove mechwarrior genes from any warrior breeding pool? expand Naval and Aerospace lines? Should anything actually make planet-fall deal with via disposable ground forces or add aerospace fighters to bid and bomb the crap out of it.

Of course - I've just happened upon another piece of info.  Field Manual Updates Steel Viper section where the steel vipers stated "we didn't ask for safecon and the ravens wouldnt have granted it anyways" - I'm pretty sure this was in reference to their attack on Lum

[Kern]

I think the vipers and the ravens are a very special case though. You can't base the Ravens usual morales off their interactions with vipers. Vipers are bad bad people. :P

[Nibs]

Vipers are bad bad people. :P

Bullies, really. Tremendously mean.  :-[

[joechummer]

Bullies, really. Tremendously mean.  :-[

Well, their heart is in the right place.

Which is, of course, in a Falcon's talon  ;D

But seriously, I think the Vipers are a tad misunderstood.

[Neufeld]

But seriously, I think the Vipers are a tad misunderstood.

Crazy people tend to be misunderstood.  ;D

[Diablo48]

Crazy people tend to be misunderstood.  ;D

Yeah, poor Hitler. ;D