How Would You Deploy Certain Tanks?

[Daemion]

So, I've been working on assembling some tank formations for my mini forces, and I can't help noting how slow a lot of the 'heavy' armor is. And, some of that heavy armor that's supposed to be particularly numerous, is rather thin-skinned.

Going through the TRos, I can easily imagine whole companies of 'Weapon' Carriers - SRM, LRM, PPC. I can easily envision entire companies of these vehicles stationed at any particular potential target.

Even the Von Luckner, a powerhouse tank that is as versatile as any heavy Mech or the Demolisher, are not fast reaction forces.

So, if you were to really design a Militia, how much would you devote to static assets that are best left at a particular defense zone, and how much would you put into reactionary forces? What motive type mixes would you shoot for? If Mechs are an option, how much would you leave to them? What about air support as the mobile hammer?

Would you go to the trouble to make prepared positions for your thinner-skinned armored assets that you don't plan moving often?

Feel free to take this in any direction you want in regards to fielding vehicular forces. Can you justify slow tanks in an invasion force, for example? How would this skew which tanks might be more common?

Discuss.

[worktroll]

First, there's a difference between tactical speed (eg. on the map), and strategic speed (eg. can you move assets in place either on their own, or buy carrier like DropShip or hauler?) Think of slow tanks like BA that way - low tactical speed usually, high tactical speed if they have an APC.

Second, the mission dictates the need. There's no perfect mix, so you're looking for flexibility.

Third, like most things, synergies are real - combinations can be more effective than the sum of their parts.

So let's consider very slow heavies - the Challenger, Zhukov, Pike, Alacorn etc. What are their strengths? High damage resistance, high damage output (usually). You need these when you
- want to stop someone taking X away
- want to take X away from someone

In the former case, low mobility - strategic or tactical - is less relevant. You know where X is, you park the tanks around it ;) In the latter, if you have strategic mobility, then you can bring your heavies to the edge of battle, and move your other forces around their speed. The 'turtles' claw their way through fire, doing as much damage as they can, ideally with other units covering their flanks & rears.

Not-quite-so-slow 4/6heavy tanks can't match a 'Mech for mobility, when jump-jets exist. But they do represent reasonably well protected firepower (not neglecting turret capability for all-round field of fire). So they make the core for a less intensive assault. Alternatively, they provide the rear cover for faster, more mobile units - either directly, or with indirect fire. They're also handy for a mauled battlegroup to fall back on.

The LRM & SRM carriers are special cases, with their low protection. The LRM carrier works more like the second category - they're supporters, who usually need hills to hide behind. The SRM carrier is a specialist mugger for urban terrain. I have a fondness for the laser carrier - 8 ML. I see them as urban renewal units - when you're facing dug-in infantry in prepared positions, use the conventional units to suppress the infantry, then have the laser carriers 'saw' their bunkers apart. So economical!

I try and come up with these uses in my combined-arms battalions. My Alliance Guards had lots of light & medium 'Mechs,  accompanied by Manteuffels, Glorys, and Galleons. The Manteuffels were the "core of the assault", especially with two platoons of BA on board. The Glorys were the supporters, who provided a safe place to regroup on in case of trouble. The lighter units swept the area, kept an eye on flanks, and took advantage of opportunities.

My 2 (in this case) L-bills.

W.

[Kovax]

As worktroll points out, the synergies between the different functional groups can be more effective than any individual type.  Put those thin-skinned weapon carriers behind the heavily armored behemoths, so the units with the most armor soak up most of the incoming fire, while the units without the armor live long enough to use their exaggerated compliments of weaponry for a few more rounds of fire.  Meanwhile, your maneuver elements go after the opponent's thin-skinned support, or their command and control centers and supply chain.

You want a balance of forces, and that balance depends entirely on what you're using it for, so you need some flexibility to deal with different situations.  Battlemechs are inherently more flexible and versatile than vehicles, but a vehicle in its proper element can be every bit as effective as a 'Mech, for a LOT less cost.  The problem with vehicles comes into play when they're functioning out of their preferred element or role, in which case they're often in trouble.

[Daemion]

Okay. Great general nebulous concepts. Now, start putting some names down, and maybe some numbers.

[worktroll]

Impossible without more context.

So, for example, the Republic Standing Guard forces on Skye can afford X, Y, Z in company lots. The Magistry of Canopus will have different constraints.

If this is what you're looking for, I'd suggest picking the setting & era. For example, Civil War era Capellan augumented lance has two Partisan AC models, two LRM models, plus a Crusader and Catapult. The unit lacks speed, but has the 'Mech's flexibility to support the slower tanks.

For a company build, Davions in the 4th war might go with platoons of Von Luckners (especially the dual-AC20 N100 models), Bulldogs, and Strikers. The Bulldogs are solid bodyguards, while the Strikers play vulture and pick off damaged enemies with their LRMs.

That sort of thing?

[Daemion]

So, if you were to really design a Militia, how much would you devote to static assets that are best left at a particular defense zone, and how much would you put into reactionary forces? What motive type mixes would you shoot for? If Mechs are an option, how much would you leave to them? What about air support as the mobile hammer?

Would you go to the trouble to make prepared positions for your thinner-skinned armored assets that you don't plan moving often?

Feel free to take this in any direction you want in regards to fielding vehicular forces. Can you justify slow tanks in an invasion force, for example? How would this skew which tanks might be more common?

I take it you thought I was talking strictly something for the immediate tabletop. I was a little more 'high-minded', looking at militias in general and as a whole.

Feel free to take it to which ever era you want, or make suggestions that might fit a particular faction regardless of era.

I also know that planetary conditions and cultural aspects could be a deciding factor. The Azami of the Draconis Combine prefer hovercraft and running around in desert conditions.

I came here looking for different opinions and a little more weighing on the pros and cons of concepts, like more heavy/static compared to something more reactionary. Nebulous answers are fine, and all, but really don't do a whole lot for making a discussion.

I leave it open so that anyone who wanted to discuss a particular faction in a particular era, or a particular force build for table top, could do just that.

And, for that matter, I wouldn't mind opening this up to discussions of whether certain tanks are actually worth being in the numbers they are when it finally comes down to game performance.

For exampel, the Vedette is a pretty mobile tank, but it's only good in numbers against other light units, and it's a 50-ton tank. One might equate it to the standard MBT. Nice mobile reaction tank, but if that's what's coming to save the day for you, would you feel relieved or concerned? And, it's a very common tank, so chances are, it could very well be the bulk of a relief force sent to help supplement your SRM and LRM carriers who are looking at a raiding party hitting the area in short order.

If you were designing a militia, would you allow your forces to be in that situation?

How much do you think the Neo-Feudal nature that's supposed to be a big part of the setting plays in militia force sizes and thus armor composition?

Let's have some fun with the discussion! And, make sure you let the rest of us know which rabbit trail you're taking.

[Kidd]

Conceptualising from base principles like that takes a lot of time and thought. So you will only get general answers as a start. But well... let me lay out some options.

Generally a defensive force is going to dig in and expect to fight from prepared positions - the modern equivalent of bringing everyone behind the castle walls and pulling up the drawbridge. Except you'd make the whole city your castle.

It is generally pointless to build expeditionary or attack forces because as a militia, you expect to be outnumbered and outclassed in the field. Why give up your best advantage? Make a Stalingrad stand and wait for offworld reinforcements. The moment Hitler launched Operation Wacht Am Rhein, General Patton was overjoyed even as the Allied line crumpled - he knew the chance had come to destroy the Germans in the field, rather than dig them out of the Siegfried Line.

So. Step 1 - make your city a deathtrap. That means lots of SRM and MG foot infantry - to crit seek enemy tanks and gun down infantry platoons. You don't need motorised because they will be dug in, so that will save on cost.

Your urban defence tank forces will be Light SRM carriers and Hetzers - Tokugawas and Fortunes if you're VERY well-heeled. Positioned under cover in side streets, AC20s rip apart Mechs and SRMs crit seek. Add Tandem-warhead and Precision rounds to your armoury. You can go even cheaper and get towed AC20s, and you should mix em in - but those count as motorised infantry, and you want some vehicles to offset infantry weaknesses.

Engineering forces are a must - loads of them. You'll need engineer platoons to dig your troops in, put out Inferno fires which the enemy WILL try to set, demine FASCAM rounds dropping in, and do nasty stuff like rig demo charges on buildings to collapse them on the enemy.

Step 2 - to resist long range attack, because the enemy can just siege up if they like, pick apart and/or bomb you into submission. This means Long Toms, Arrow IV and LRM Carriers. Arrows in particular are high value units as they double as homing rounds, move around very quickly on some platforms and most importantly will provide your medium range SAM umbrella against those bombers and striking ASFs.

The cheapest of these options of course is the LRM carrier, your tactical fire support unit. On top of the usual, indirect fire is nasty. Semi-guided and Narc LRMs will help too, but you need TAG spotters and Narc launcher units so the latter is less useful. Infantry can spot for indirect and battle-armour TAGgers will bring the Semi-guided rain on enemy assault units, so you need those.

You also want a couple of Partisans, Pikes or AC2 Carriers for your short range air defence and also to plink down enemy tanks. Not as many as LRM Carriers as they are less versatile. Again, precision or flak ammo will be your best buddy.

Thunder and FASCAM won't be as useful unless pre-emplaced by engineers, because the attackers will see them dropping and simply clear them... unless you drop them on a street out of enemy line of sight, in which case its a real barrel of laughs.

I personally would like to have a few Yellow Jackets and/or Warrior AC2s. They can dart around at relatively high speeds to reinforce different sectors, Gauss slugs hit hard and AC2 with precision ammo helps plink down enemy tanks AND VTOLs. Why the latter? Cause if I were the attacker, I'd definitely pack VTOLs to spot for my assault forces. You want to have options to go after those guys. Cavalry-Infantry variants and Mantises would be another option.

Add a generic tank on top of these specialised units to fence with the enemy at range. Bulldogs, Pattons and Manticores are longstanding favourites. The Myrmidon is quite punchy (and munchy).

[Daemion]

That's interesting. So, a lot of the stock vehicle designs, maybe half, are best suited in a built-up city environment and not as something mobile.

So, do you have a place in that line-up for the fast hovercraft? Or, would those best be suited in an attack role?

[Colt Ward]

Well, your table top and general plan will not be too different . . .

So for example, my TT group has been play testing some conditions for a tournament we wanted to run.  It was a 1v1 battle, with 10k per side including pilots.  My force was divided into 3 tiers . . . Gunline, Skirmishers and Flankers.  I was playing the Warden Wolves which meant I had to use what they had on the MUL.  I used a Heimdall A (4/6), Morrigu (Laser, 4/6), and Nova Cat C (3/5) as my gun line.  The battlefield had a few hills, trees and a road that IMO did not offer opportunity for the armor to really move since it looped around.  Both assault tanks were 3/5 on movement but have good armor and long range weaponry though the Heimdall definitely is a 'front to enemy' tank since that is where its pair of LBX are located.  My skirmishers were 4 Roc 3 which I placed among the armor and Nova Cat at the beginning with one out on my left flank.  My flankers were a Phantom H (3/5), Hellion E (3/5) and Satyr 3 (3) all fast enough to get around my opponent.

The tanks moved forward up the middle of the map until they reached a firing position on a L1 hill though they did have a area that was masked by a L2 hill.  They then proceeded to open up at range from their firing position, moving up only occasionally as the opportunity presented since from their firing position their weapons could reach across the map.  While they did not hit as often as I wanted, they did present a dilemma for my opponent since as IS he outmassed me and had more mechs than I did (and a LOT of LB-10X designs, which was unexpected)- he could rush my gunline accepting the damage the two assault tanks could dish out backed up by the more mobile Nova Cat or hang back to snipe.  If he rushed me it would easily allow my flankers to get behind him and the skirmishers to isolate damaged units- besides the pain two assault tanks could bring on their own. 

So he hung back to snipe, the tanks did not get as many hits, and it took my flankers a bit longer to work around behind.  I had some lucky hits that snowballed the fight in my direction.

We also had some victory conditions that included having a commander on the field in a undisclosed unit.  I chose the Heimdall b/c I knew it was going to be at the back of my formation, it has thick slabs of armor and we used the advanced vehicle survival rules- it surprised my opponent after I revealed at the end of the game.

Hovercraft were the best flankers in open terrain.  TW sort of nerfed that with their penchant for sideslip, but that just means you have to be more careful and not bet the farm on it.  I still love to have Harassers loaded with a single ton of ammo go hunting the heavy/assault monster tanks in my opponent's backfield- its a lot more efficient than burning through the armor.

Typically your hover & VTOL units will be your tracked defensive line's counterattack, especially if you have no mechs to offer that mobility.

[Kidd]

That's interesting. So, a lot of the stock vehicle designs, maybe half, are best suited in a built-up city environment and not as something mobile.

So, do you have a place in that line-up for the fast hovercraft? Or, would those best be suited in an attack role?

IMHO hovers do well for flanks, generating high THNs for slash attacks (find a long straight line, zoom and boom), and crossing water - if the map has rivers, lovely.

Vehicles in general fo better on defence. Because in this strategy I don't want to stir outside of the defences, no i have no place for hovers. It would be more balanced to force the defender to play rather than turtle like this.

In general this game is not really tabletop playable, you'd want a game to be much less of a tedious meatgrinder. But you said you wanted a more in-universe scenario.

[guardiandashi]

imo it depends on a lot of factors.

sure if you could have anything (and everything) you want then you would make certain choices.

in reality that's not likely to happen, you will end up trying to fight tigers and such with shermans.... and we know how that turned out the shermans won... but there were a lot of destroyed shermans and crews sent home in boxes.

with that said I would tend to try to get a combination of "tanky" units (ones that can take a beating and keep going. preferably with heavy firepower as well) such as demolishers, and other things.  and some more mobile, and or firepower oriented ones, and some mobile units.  You then plan your defenses and tactics based on what you actually have.

if you have a say I would actually incorporate some underground parking garages, and elevated parking structures into my plans if available.  nothing says ouch quite like having a lance or more of lrm carriers and artillery up on the top deck of a parking garage, where they can use indirect fire to bring the pain most places within range.  and of course having a demolisher, or srm carrier open up from the "ground floor/basement from a building where you didn't think there was any threat at essentially point blank range has to suck.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

In discussing conventional forces' doctrine as militia, a major point of resolution is planetary mobility.  When invaders come a calling, you can't be moving your armored company from this continent to that continent or even this city to that city via any kind of aircraft... invading/raiding Aerospace forces will ensure your own skies are unfriendly.  (and if they didn't bring enough aerospace to control your skies, then they're already doing it wrong...)

Rail transportation is best employed for pre-positioning forces during what ever period of time you might get between detecting hostiles and their making planetfall.  But that's not a lot of time (usually no more than a few hours warning), and even if you DID have a lot of time you still don't know where to mass your forces until the hostiles do make their planetfall.  By the time the hostiles have established themselves a planethead, your rail links that would allow you to mass to oppose them will have been among their intitial objectives to neutralize.

So pretty much it means that almost all the time, raiders will only have to deal with facing whatever militia forces happen to be garrisoned near whatever their target may be.  The size of planetary militias is a recurring topic of debate, and without trying to rekindle one here I'll just leave it as a simple "I think planetary militias are large".  Large on the order of "a company or battalion or so" of forces isn't what's available planetwide: it's what's available to defend at the invaders' objective.  If the invaders land and then see the opposing militia, I very much question the logic that if they get back in their dropships and go to the other side of the planet that there will no longer be any militia available to oppose them there since everyone was already at their first target...

And again expounding on the notion that planetary militias are deployed everywhere throughout the inhabited/settled portion of the planet but in small company-scaled groups, their best odds for holding out long enough for relief is to have fixed defenses wherever they will plausibly be expected to fight (e.g. the kinds of targets that would warrant an interstellar raid).  Since militia can't count on an entire planet's worth of militia to show up to swarm invaders/raiders concentrated at just one point on the planet, things like armed bunkers/towers and minefields are the best and most economical force multipliers available to a small detachment of forces that will have to fight unsupported.

And I also consider fixed defenses to be the castles of the "mechwarriors are 31st century knights" motif.  We don't see a lot of besieging fixed emplacements in boardgame play because boardgame play is focused on mechs rather than minefields and strategic artillery.  This is reinforced in-universe on the primacy of raiding in warfare (except you know, in eras when TPTB let BTech jump the shark...).  Mechs have mobility that other forces don't have, so if the forces "castling up" simply allow the mechs to run rampant everything outside the "castle" is vulnerable, and even the castle itself is inevitably vulnerable if the defenders can't launch sallies of their own.  Such sallies are what's represented in boardgame play. 

[O5P_Ghost]

I think the biggest issue is what kind of world are we talking about? What am I defending? Is it the factories, the spaceport, mines, what? That will detirmine alot of my purchases.

Ultimately, on a medium (importance) or smaller world I would have the follows (3025-3048):

Goblin company with 12 squads of infantry. The Goblins would be 8 stock 2 lrm and 2 ac2 variants.
A company of 8 light SRM and 4 LRM carriers
a company of VTOLS (prob 8 warriors and 4 Ferrets)
A company of hovers (the Saladin family)
2 battalions of Infantry
2 sections of Sniper artillery

This would be per planetary region

If I had more money or had a high value target I would add a company of Manticores and a couple lances of Demolishers

[Force of Nature]

This is my support company. Support from behind the lines (on the table)

4x Long Toms
4x Coolant trucks
2x Mash
2x J-27 ammo carriers with Sniper artillery/RAC 2 Anti-Air/Mech with unlimited ammo. Players choice.

When this company is on board and in a defensive position, I allow up to three pre-plotted hexes that are auto hits when called. If on the offense, I add a Boomerang flying spotter aircraft for the artillery.

Home rules:

Coolant trucks: Mech moves within the same hex as the coolant truck and shuts down in movement (no weapons fire allowed) OR the mech is shutdown and the coolant truck moves into the same hex as the shutdown mech. The next turn, double the number of heat sinks and subtract that amount of heat. Yes, a mech with 10 double heat sinks will cool 40 heat from the mech from the coolant truck that turn. If there is no heat the next turn, the coolant truck cannot move and disconnects and stores the hoses. The mech can startup and walk only, but is able to fire.

Mash units: Special scenario or campaign only. Allied pilots that are get the head removed (shot off, punched off or the result of turning the mech into a lawn dart due to an epic DFA fail attempt - IIRC Hellbie LOL) are not necessarily dead, but are bleeding and unconscious.

Mash unit on the table but NOT in the hex with the pilot: Roll 1D6 at the end of each turn. 1-5: Pilot is still bleeding, but alive. 6: Pilot is dead from bleeding.

Mash unit on the table AND in the hex with the pilot: Pilot is extracted from the mech. Mech is salvage. Pilot no longer can bleed out due to IVs and such. Roll 1D6 at the end of each turn. 1-5: no effect. 6: Pilot is restored to 1 hit and is conscious. Pilot is still out of the fight though, but alive.

Mech pilots that are unconscious from falling, head hits and ammo explosions AND the Mash unit is in the same hex. At the end of the following turn, add +3 to the consciousness roll. If failed, at the end of the next turn, add +5 to the consciousness roll. If failed, the next turn, add +7 etc. If the consciousness roll is made, the pilot loses one turn as they figure out what happened and the Mash crew leaves. The turn after that, the pilot can resume as normal. None of the pilot damage is healed this way though.

An enemy mech within three hexes of the Mash unit can nullify the 1D6 roll as they hold the crew hostage by pointing weapons at them (total focus, no secondary fire is allowed). However, if the enemy mech within three hexes does not hold the Mash crew hostage and fires weapons elsewhere, the Mash crew will still be able to roll the 1D6 and its effect.

[Force of Nature]

This is my all around Armor Company.

Long range LRM goodness, close range AC 20 goodness and infantry carriers for taking and holding positions. Makes as good city militia force.

2x Demolishers
2x Von Lunkers
2x Hetzers
2x Bulldogs
2x Hunters
2x Strikers

[Force of Nature]

This is my Desert Camo Company.

4x Myrmidons
4x Pikes
4x Wheeled APCs
1x HQ

Either a serious take and hold force or a city defense support force.
Pikes for long range sniping. Myrmidons to use as a reaction force or when you need to get serious.
APCs for carrying infantry, gold bars or the beer needed to "tune" the Alacorns tracks...

Home rules for the HQ vehicle:

If stationary, provides +2 initiative for the desert camo company only. If it moves, +1 initiative for the desert cam company only.
Otherwise, it provides a +1 initiative to the side it is on (desert camo company and more)

However, if it gets destroyed that side gets a -1 initiative for the rest of the game.

[Force of Nature]

My green camo armor company.

4x Behemoths
4x Saladins
4x Wheeled APCs
1x HQ

Another city defense support company or a slow crawling assault force with dangerous fast movers to protect the flanks.

Saladins for recon in force (with AC 20s!)
Behemoths for semi mobile pill boxes.  ;)
APCs for infantry, gold bars or beer.  ;)
HQ for initiative help.

[Force of Nature]

My Kursk Camo armor company

4x Shreks (not the green Ogre)  ;)
4x Partisian Anti-Air tanks
4x Ontos (yes these are the original lead miniatures)

A slow, all around self supporting company. Very high threat to opponents.

Shreks for when you need say, "All call. 12 PPCs at the <name of mech>"
Ontos for when they say, "Ill just move in on those Shreks with my fast movers." You reply, "All call. 32 medium lasers at the <name of fast moving mech>" They say, "Oh *$#&!"
Partisians for when they say, "I will shoot them at medium range with helicopters." You reply, "All call. 16 AC2s at the <name of helicopter>"

You don't have to do "All Calls", but it wears on the opponents nerves every turn. They either decide to take their lumps and utterly eliminate this company or hide. The Shrek/Ontos combo is dangerous. Putting the Partisian anti-air in there makes it even more difficult to take on. Yes, this company has been wiped out to the tank, twice, but at high cost.

[Force of Nature]

My company of Pattons.

12x Pattons OR Rommels in a city...  ;)

Attacking or defending it doesn't matter. You are just looking to take down opponents mechs, tanks, trees, buildings and bad attitudes. You are looking for a fight. Just sayin...

"All Call" only when the situation presents itself.  Firing by lance at different targets is typical though.

Hope this helps give you ideas as to how I set up my armored companies.

[Daemion]

That's nifty to see FoN. A full company of Pattons/Rommels. I think someone upthread suggested a company of Manticores or Bulldogs, too.

So, this leads me to two questions - for anyone to answer:

- I've played out armor-on-armor games a couple times. Who else has, and did you enjoy them? Or did they get a little boring after a while?

- Are there any vehicles which you avoid using if you can? I'm talking combat tanks and the like, and not necessarily objective pieces like the Engineering Vehicle. Heck, the 15-ton flatbed truck can be outfitted with LRM Launchers, and I've used those before.

[Colt Ward]

The LPL armed Myrmidon or Manticore, I forget which was supposed to be 'upgraded.'  Honestly after 3050 I would avoid anything armed with a regular Large Laser or Large Pulse as their main gun on anything slower than 5/8 and over 50 tons.  For example, the Bulldog Medium Tank violates several rules IMO- Large Laser armed, 4/6 speed and a ICE engine.  Like it as a fluff unit- or perhaps a armor training vehicle since the main gun only costs fuel.  Its also why I prefer the PPC or HPPC armed Brutus over the regular- though I would have liked to see the HPPC get HFF for its armor as part of the upgrade.

Unless it was a urban defense unit, then it should be fine.