Author Topic: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?  (Read 1148 times)

BATTLEMASTER

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I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that warships like the Texas, McKenna, and Aegis have docking collars despite looking like they're meant solely for ship-to-ship combat.  It would make sense to me for heavy combat ships like those to eschew docking collars for other things that enhance their combat effectiveness and leave dropship transport to lesser-armed warships or plain jumpships.

Are these warships actually meant to jump with a dropship complement attached, then once the jump is completed detach the dropships and cruise through space as a flotilla or space superiority task force?  That would make the most sense to me if the droppers were assault ships and not meant for ground invasion.  But if they're meant for a ground invasion task force, that seems to be asking for the ground unit transports to get blown up before they get planetside unless they're left behind a safe distance.  Then they're stuck if their ride gets destroyed while trying to achieve space superiority.

So what's the point of putting docking collars on heavy combat warships?
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #1 on: 29 November 2023, 18:30:50 »
Three things,

One, Resupply, Big SLDF ships have lots of cargo space so they can support ground invasions. They also need enormous amounts of parts, fuel, ammo, and other miscellaneous supplies that won't fit onto shuttles. That cargo has to get in and out of there somehow thus you have collars which can do the job, much like the Grayhound plane on a carrier.

Two, Screening and Strategic Projection, SLDF Doctrine was to carry lots of fighters in order to stop incoming fighters. That is why they don't have good point defense. Fighters are better launched from smaller dropship carriers so they can get better angles and increased sortie rates. Assault Dropships can also bully lesser vessels and be used for interceptions or enforcing blockades.

Three, Strategic Mobility and Deployment, A Warship Task Force is all about power projection. Those SLDF Warships carry a large contingent of SLDF Soldiers that can deploy to a planet's surface to enforce the First Lord's decree. If they didn't then you would have to move a unit from its garrison world onto jumpships then to the target location then to the planet requiring more collars than if you used them anyway plus you can do it faster since many of them have LF-batteries thus can move twice as fast.

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #2 on: 29 November 2023, 19:19:53 »
One, Resupply, Big SLDF ships have lots of cargo space so they can support ground invasions. They also need enormous amounts of parts, fuel, ammo, and other miscellaneous supplies that won't fit onto shuttles. That cargo has to get in and out of there somehow thus you have collars which can do the job, much like the Grayhound plane on a carrier.

DOH!  I forgot about that!  I don't play strategic games with warships so cargo space is usually forgotten here.  Thanks!


Quote
Two, Screening and Strategic Projection, SLDF Doctrine was to carry lots of fighters in order to stop incoming fighters. That is why they don't have good point defense. Fighters are better launched from smaller dropship carriers so they can get better angles and increased sortie rates. Assault Dropships can also bully lesser vessels and be used for interceptions or enforcing blockades.

I was wondering if dropships acted somewhat like big omnipods for a warship to fulfill roles like this.  Can someone please remind me if dropship-mounted AMS near a warship can protect it from missile attacks?


Quote
Three, Strategic Mobility and Deployment, A Warship Task Force is all about power projection. Those SLDF Warships carry a large contingent of SLDF Soldiers that can deploy to a planet's surface to enforce the First Lord's decree. If they didn't then you would have to move a unit from its garrison world onto jumpships then to the target location then to the planet requiring more collars than if you used them anyway plus you can do it faster since many of them have LF-batteries thus can move twice as fast.

How is this different from doing the same thing with a warship?  Troops would still have to be moved from one place to another whether it's a warship that has practical transit drive or a dropship, which also has a practical transit drive, moving troops to a jumpship.  Or are you saying that the warship alone can move the troops and then use the dropships and small craft to ferry to-and-from orbit?
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #3 on: 29 November 2023, 19:33:51 »
To 1:Not only can they supply themselves but their Warship or Dropship Task Force too like those SLDF Destroyers and Corvettes without their own drop collars.

To 2: Dropship, Small Craft, and Aerospace mounted AMS or standard weapons can engage missiles as an optional/expanded rule in StratOps. Missile Defense and ECM (for Missile Defense) is actually the standard use for small craft in my Second Star League's guide to Warships (link in sig below) as they have an oversized impact for little mass.

To 3: Warships can in fact carry entire ground combat forces within their cargo bays if they wanted to, and can transport them to the ground using cargo or dedicated combat transports. You could carry two Overlords that act as the Breaching Crew to take control of an area that is secure enough to unload larger forces carried as cargo from large but less defended (you know except by having a Warship as an escort) dropships.

Warships can also act like a central supply depot for smaller dropship mounted forces. This is one of the in-game explanations for the lack of cargo space on the main 3 troop transports, they are basically the ship to shore connectors from a Warship.

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #4 on: 29 November 2023, 19:48:25 »
I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that warships like the Texas, McKenna, and Aegis have docking collars despite looking like they're meant solely for ship-to-ship combat.  It would make sense to me for heavy combat ships like those to eschew docking collars for other things that enhance their combat effectiveness and leave dropship transport to lesser-armed warships or plain jumpships.

Are these warships actually meant to jump with a dropship complement attached, then once the jump is completed detach the dropships and cruise through space as a flotilla or space superiority task force?  That would make the most sense to me if the droppers were assault ships and not meant for ground invasion.  But if they're meant for a ground invasion task force, that seems to be asking for the ground unit transports to get blown up before they get planetside unless they're left behind a safe distance.  Then they're stuck if their ride gets destroyed while trying to achieve space superiority.

So what's the point of putting docking collars on heavy combat warships?

The McKenna was specifically fluffed as being a single ship that could "handle" a world since the 6 Docking Collars allowed it to carry 2 regiments of troops.

But the real answer is "flexibility".  The entire construct of what your task force of dropships is made up of is going to depend on the entirety of your KF fleet.

Asking what DS you use before knowing what KF you have is sort of cart before the horse.

1st you need a mission, then you need a KF Force,  finally you need the DS.

You mention the Warships being destroyed & stranding the DS, well, that's less likely than a pair of Invaders being boarded & taken over by a single Intruder class DS w/ a company of marines.

As for the DS being at risk, what is riskier, traveling near said McKenna which makes everyone give them a WIDE berth, or being back at the Jump Point naked and alone?

In theory, the best answer is traveling just behind the McKenna to avoid direct fire as the McKenna gets into range of defenders, but close enough that if sensors pick up incoming high speed pass they can get bunched up again.

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Hellraiser

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #5 on: 29 November 2023, 19:50:30 »
That is why they don't have good point defense.
Minor point of order, but, they were fluffed as having smaller weapons that were left out of the stats, but its there in the 2750 intro fluff IIRC.
But don't get me started on what they SHOULD have looked like.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #6 on: 29 November 2023, 20:24:43 »
Minor point of order, but, they were fluffed as having smaller weapons that were left out of the stats, but its there in the 2750 intro fluff IIRC.
But don't get me started on what they SHOULD have looked like.

Oh I know, Hellraiser. That's why I wrote like 60 pages of Word Document that I added to that Second Star League Warship thread.

On your previous post (and Battlemaster's original) you can literally hide dropships within a Warship's sensor shadow (remember Space Hexes are big) and prevent any incoming fire from impacting them from a threat angle. They don't have to float around separately. Also high speed passes only really work if you want to engage, forcing them is incredibly difficult.

BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #7 on: 29 November 2023, 20:37:36 »
This is all great info - thanks!  Up to this point I've always just associated docking collars with hyperspace transport, forgetting that they're also used to transfer cargo and personnel.

Minor point of order, but, they were fluffed as having smaller weapons that were left out of the stats, but its there in the 2750 intro fluff IIRC.
But don't get me started on what they SHOULD have looked like.

Totally agree.  House rules can accommodate that :)
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #8 on: 29 November 2023, 21:51:07 »
I'd also point out that if a WarShip relied on normal jumpers to bring its ASF carriers, assault dropships, etc, that imposes a dilemma: you probably have to leave those jumpers at the jump points, so that means you have to leave escorts, which reduces the number of ecorts you can take with you, etc.  For example, a McKenna with 6 collars can take 2 Vengeance and 4 Achilles in-system with it.  A Hypothetical collarless McKenna that brings 2 invaders along for the same dropships probably requires at least one of the Achilles left behind to guard the Invaders.
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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #9 on: 29 November 2023, 22:45:14 »
Outside of C-Bills increase, which never scaled well, there is no reason not to have Docking Collars, they just add a ton of flexibility to any taskforce.

Take your basic Fox, everyone laughs it off, but really, tack on a Vengeance, Mule, & 3 Avengers, and now your talking a taskforce that gets things done.

As AM put it, you don't even have to be limited to the collars themselves.

1 Each of the following......... Overlord, Vengeance, Mule, Excalibur, Intruder, & Elephant & you basically have a key "mover" for every unit type from the SLDF era & with the size of those cargo holds you can ferry a division or 3 to & from the planet if your willing to take the time.
And toss in the ability to Intercept, Interdict, Capture, & Relocate any dropships coming your way as well.
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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #10 on: 29 November 2023, 22:47:09 »
On your previous post (and Battlemaster's original) you can literally hide dropships within a Warship's sensor shadow (remember Space Hexes are big) and prevent any incoming fire from impacting them from a threat angle. They don't have to float around separately.

Also high speed passes only really work if you want to engage, forcing them is incredibly difficult.
Good to know on both accounts.
I like Aerospace but I've got all of 3 games under my belt in 35 years & the biggest thing ever on the map was an Overlord so 0-experience with Warship rules.
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BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #11 on: 30 November 2023, 07:30:35 »
I like Aerospace but I've got all of 3 games under my belt in 35 years & the biggest thing ever on the map was an Overlord so 0-experience with Warship rules.

MegaMek has the rules for space ECM implemented, and I believe sensor shadows as well.  I also play with Newtonian movement implemented, and MegaMek does all the book keeping for that!  I encourage you to give it a try if you're able as the bot can play space games.
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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #12 on: 30 November 2023, 09:22:02 »
I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that warships like the Texas, McKenna, and Aegis have docking collars despite looking like they're meant solely for ship-to-ship combat.  It would make sense to me for heavy combat ships like those to eschew docking collars for other things that enhance their combat effectiveness and leave dropship transport to lesser-armed warships or plain jumpships.

Are these warships actually meant to jump with a dropship complement attached, then once the jump is completed detach the dropships and cruise through space as a flotilla or space superiority task force?  That would make the most sense to me if the droppers were assault ships and not meant for ground invasion.  But if they're meant for a ground invasion task force, that seems to be asking for the ground unit transports to get blown up before they get planetside unless they're left behind a safe distance.  Then they're stuck if their ride gets destroyed while trying to achieve space superiority.

So what's the point of putting docking collars on heavy combat warships?

Imagine your big ships as being something like it's own taskforce.  The docking collars in ship-to-ship lets you bring things the designers didn't work in, like carriers or assault dropshps to fill the escort role and provide the popcorn you need to get through an engagement.

"What is popcorn?" you mihgt ask?

Popcorn is assets that act as ablative meat for your expense-heavy and powerful units. because unlike Battlemech combat, space combat is actively lethal and very few space assets survive long against opponents that can actually hurt them.

A fighter deliveing an Alamo will put 98% of your big warships into the 'dead' category, and unlike ground combat, this isn't a WMD situation, it's a 'the only rational move a smaller opponent (which anyone facing the SLDF is, by definition, going to be) can make" situation.  Fighter borne and missile borne nukes are inexpensive, Warships are Expensive.

Speaking of expensive, that means needing to get the most use per C-bill, and you know what, in the Battletech universe, is more influential than Naval Forces? 

Did you say Ground forces? if you did, you understand.  Pure Naval is too narrowly mission specific to afford  to maintain when the vast majority of conflicts are resolved by a couple Heavy Equipment Operators duelling on the ground.

Thus, to justify the big warship, it has to be a great big tour bus for the 'mechwarriors if you want to get the expenditures approved by the First Lord and his committee, because what you are NOT going to face, is a peer level Naval Force.  Not since the Reunification war. (Please note: Reunification War era designs ran with fewer drop collars, or even none, at least early on, and the poster child of those, is the Aegis, which is a big gun cruiser with two collars total-aka just enough to do underway replenishment or carry a couple carrier dropships.)

The political and strategic environment that designs like McKenna, Texas, Sovetski Soyuz, Luxor and similar ships were designed and approved in, was an era of Asymmetric warfare, in pragmatic terms, in that era, your big warship's main job, is to be an orbital supply point, hospital, and command post that's too threatening to attack for the kind of people it would most likely face-the real heavy lifting was done by dropship and fighter crews getting the 'mechwarriors to the ground to settle the issue.

The reason it took until after the Clans were in the Kerensky Cluster for the Cameron Class to get their heat management dealt with, is because they were never supposed to actually need it.  A stock Cameron can still settle the issue with 99% of likely opposition in the Star League Era using a handful of secondary weapons...if, and only if, the enemy actually brought enough to get through the escorting dropships and fighter screen.

Most enemies weren't even going to have that much.  The Taurians had to sneak nukes into fueling stations and maintenance yards, if they wanted to damage the post-Reunification SLDF.  Amaris spent a vast amount of money (Squandered it even) to have a navy a fraction of the size or effectiveness, and the same can be said of the Great Houses, and that's right up into the turn of the 29th century.

Prior to the Amaris Coup, the political/strategic situation was such that "Peer conflict' was, at best, a theoretical exercise, not a practical reality...but landing punitive expeditions and such on rebellions? that was something that was an ongoing activity, right there with dealing with insurgents.  Most of those Star League era battlewagons were in a situation where they needed the drop-collars, because they were the expensive, powerful, even terrifying, tour bus for ground forces.
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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #13 on: 30 November 2023, 11:29:48 »

Which is more dangerous?  A McKenna with no dropships?  Or a Potemkin with 25 Vengeance dropships deploying literally a thousand aerospace fighters?

It’s an extreme example, but it shows the aerospace force-multiplier advantages of dropships, even setting aside non-aerospace roles like resupply and ground assault.
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BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #14 on: 30 November 2023, 13:25:37 »
Which is more dangerous?  A McKenna with no dropships?  Or a Potemkin with 25 Vengeance dropships deploying literally a thousand aerospace fighters?

It’s an extreme example, but it shows the aerospace force-multiplier advantages of dropships, even setting aside non-aerospace roles like resupply and ground assault.

The reason that I didn't mention the Potemkin in the OP is because it is specifically an armed transport, and pretty heavily armed at that.  In a scenario like that I think I'd leave the Potemkin at the jump point or at maximum capital weapon range while the Vengeance dropships and their fighter compliment clear space, then move the Potemkin up.
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General308

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #15 on: 30 November 2023, 19:49:09 »
Lots of good answers given.

Also yeah those warships are bring in the Combat troops.  If are using a warship you are expecting warships.  So yea you are even bring your ground troops with the dropship.  Because if not the enemy targets your jumpships as soon as they jump in system invasion over.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #16 on: 30 November 2023, 20:41:42 »
All the more reason to use nonstandard but not necessarily pirate points for offensives as a matter of principle. Although Warship on Warship fights are probably rather uncommon even if they are both present. Probably a lot of positioning, maybe a short exchange to keep them honest. Otherwise you might end up in the same situation as if you'd brought Jumpships in the first place, except a lot more expensive.

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #17 on: 30 November 2023, 23:50:00 »
(Please note: Reunification War era designs ran with fewer drop collars, or even none, at least early on, and the poster child of those, is the Aegis, which is a big gun cruiser with two collars total-aka just enough to do underway replenishment or carry a couple carrier dropships.)
/cough.... Four collars.
And it's little brother the Dart had 6.
Just saying not everything was lacking collars.


Quote
The reason it took until after the Clans were in the Kerensky Cluster for the Cameron Class to get their heat management dealt with, is because they were never supposed to actually need it.  A stock Cameron can still settle the issue with 99% of likely opposition in the Star League Era using a handful of secondary weapons...if, and only if, the enemy actually brought enough to get through the escorting dropships and fighter screen.
Heat Management?   I thought it had electrical system issues.  It's almost impossible to overheat a Cameron.  They are close to being alpha babies.
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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #18 on: 01 December 2023, 05:16:21 »
As others have said, versatility.  Are you jumping into a hot Jump Point and need Assault Dropships to pop off instantly and be ready for supporting fire?  It can handle that. Need to punch transports through a blockage? Have a fighter-carrier DS and transports while the McKenna bulls straight through, no extra Jumpships kicking around to be targets.  Need to add some general (non-military) utility?  Swap out for mission appropriate dropships.  It provides options.  Your point about losing ships and their collars is well taken, when theorycrafting out a fleet I ussually put in a few more jumoships than I actually need on the grounds that some platforms (warships or other jumpships) will get damaged / destroyed.  Frankly you should always have a safety margin. 

Since all these warship designs are from Pre-Succession Wars it is probably important to mention that Jumpships are not, at that point, seen as priceless relics of a bygone age.  They are just transports.  And transports of military goods are valid targets.  And most jumpships won't last long against even a flight of fighters much less an assault dropship, so using armored Warships that could look after themsleves actually makes a degree of sense in that technology-rich time.

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #19 on: 01 December 2023, 05:25:01 »
It does seem like a waste to blow up Jumpships. Better to board them since they are still valuable and basically easy prey for marines

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #20 on: 01 December 2023, 14:01:53 »
IIRC the story from SLSB of a raid during the Amaris war had a taskforce of 8 "Warships" and 10 "Transports".
It should be noted that a "Transport" could be a Carrack which is actually an armed warship v/s a Jumpship but for the sake of this, call them Invaders.

The Taskforce IIRC, was a Black Lion, 2x Aegis, 4x Lola, & Potemkin.

I don't recall the Potemkin getting much from the story, it was basically the other 7 splitting up into 2 sections & engaging the Caspar's & losing.

Point being, you can leave something behind that actually makes hitting those Jumpers very dangerous.

And if you don't, well, clearing a Jump Point of all Jumpers via my Marines is how I grew my fleet.  :evil:
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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #21 on: 01 December 2023, 14:15:55 »
/cough.... Four collars.
And it's little brother the Dart had 6.
Just saying not everything was lacking collars.

Heat Management?   I thought it had electrical system issues.  It's almost impossible to overheat a Cameron.  They are close to being alpha babies.

aw geez, wtf was I thinking of??  I'm'a crawl under a rock now.
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General308

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #22 on: 01 December 2023, 15:27:06 »
It does seem like a waste to blow up Jumpships. Better to board them since they are still valuable and basically easy prey for marines

Only because you are looking at it in todays BT world.  Not in the world of Battletech were Jumpships were being quickly constructed.  Wasn't till the IS destroyed the ablity to do that and destroyed a large number of the jumpships were they said yea we might not want to do that.    But before that valid military target

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #23 on: 01 December 2023, 15:36:29 »
I mean even when there's plenty of them it's a billion c-bill ship that is right there for the picking with less than a platoon of guys.

General308

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #24 on: 01 December 2023, 15:51:47 »
I mean even when there's plenty of them it's a billion c-bill ship that is right there for the picking with less than a platoon of guys.

Assuming in that era they would let you and not settle ie blow up the ship.   Besides blowing it up means no chance of the ground team taking it back if they need to escape. It isn't that I don't get your thoughts.  But just think how militaries have choice to sink merchant vessals instead of capturing them in war.  Pretty standard stuff really.

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Aerotech - Heavy Combat Warships with Docking Collars - Useful?
« Reply #25 on: 01 December 2023, 17:06:38 »
Which is more dangerous?  A McKenna with no dropships?  Or a Potemkin with 25 Vengeance dropships deploying literally a thousand aerospace fighters?

It’s an extreme example, but it shows the aerospace force-multiplier advantages of dropships, even setting aside non-aerospace roles like resupply and ground assault.

I had something similar for the Forum Warship fleet (A Potemkin loaded up with carriers crammed with as many Holy Grail jokes I could think of at the time)

But as Hellraiser (?) said upthread: never discount a Fox-class because of those five carrier spots. That could be five plus Mech Battalions it could drop or five regiments of vehicles, or five fully loaded Vengeance’s with nukes on those fighters.

Dropships are always force multipliers which is why the Leviathan III is a bit scary considering the Aesir/Vanir combo the Bears are rocking.

 

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