Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle  (Read 7334 times)

Moonsword

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Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« on: 23 April 2012, 18:20:19 »
Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle

The Danai is one of the fruits of the Trinity Alliance, a product of a Capellan attempt to salve Canopian complaints and concerns about some of the downsides of the Alliance.  Designed with Capellan aid, the Danai was named for Danai Centrella, a fallen heir to the throne, and while the design program dragged on, the result is an effective, respectable vehicle built mostly from domestic parts.  The armament, however, is supplied by the Capellans, with an initial shipment of 200 artillery pieces and twice that many lasers moved under heavy guard to make sure initial production was not delayed by logistical concerns.  Once production started in 3073, the Danais scattered to the winds, with most Canopian and some Capellan units having at least one.  A number have been shipped in the same convoys that move combat units and mercs have, despite requests, so far not been allowed access aside from state-sponsored units.  However, that may have been changing at the time of TRO3075's publishing (January 3075).  No less than two companies of Danais are part of the standing defense force at Detroit Consolidated Vehicle Works, watching over the factories where they were built, and judging from the remarks in the book and XTRO: Periphery, it looks like they've gotten some live fire gunnery practice, too.

The baseline Danai Support Vehicles are, despite the name, combat vehicles from the word “go”, although they're definitely in a support role, hence the name.  At 45 tons with a wheeled chassis, they're similar to the Star League Defense Force's Thors overall but somewhat smaller.  And unlike the Thor, Danais will fit comfortably inside a light vehicle bay - despite the places the SLDF vehicle is superior, that's enough of a gain right there to compensate for every one of them in my opinion.  A GM 205 fusion engine gives you an 86 kph range, letting a Danai pace your typical medium lance without great difficulty in open terrain.  The armor is 6.5 tons of centuries-proven Maximillian 43 standard plate arranged 29/17/15/26.  From my Thor comment, some of you have probably already realized the main gun is a Thumper, provided by Binithian Ballistics.  Only one ton of ammunition is available, so pick your load carefully, but at 20 rounds, you've got a pretty reasonable endurance nonetheless.  A pair of Firmir ERMLs are parked in the turret for self-defense.

The Danai (Arrow) is ambitious and advanced, but I'm not entirely sold on the results.  Work on the project started in 3075, two years after the Danai entered production, and it was based on efforts to salvage units damaged during the attacks on Detroit by the Word of Blake, which then snowballed into incorporating some additional advanced elements.  Okay, fair enough.  Exactly where they got the stockpile of 160-rated fusion engines from, I couldn't tell you unless there was a fire sale on Locust spares, but it's enough to get you to 64 kph, cutting some speed down and preventing you from running with the cavalry forces if they're putting pedal to the metal.  Part of the savings went to another half-ton of armor, arranged 31/19/16/27, and it's now stealth, making the vehicle harder to locate and harder to kill when someone does find it, although the effect is somewhat countered by the reduced movement modifiers the vehicle can pull off.  The turret mounted weapons were completely replaced.  That's not surprising, given the use of the stealth armor occupying the “free” heat sinks from engine, nor is the addition of a Guardian ECM module.  The choice of a quartet of Magshots, not weapons I'd expect to be easily acquired in that end of space, is.  A full ton of ammunition lasts you about as long as you want to be shooting them anyway - 50 rounds to split between the guns.  Personally, I'd have opted for a brace of LMGs and more ammunition for the star attraction of the armament, an Arrow IV launcher fed by just two tons of ammunition.  With artillery, up to a certain point, “more is better” is just as true for the ammo load as it is for the gun.  As ambushers with homing ammo (or ADAs if you're trying to suddenly surprise someone in the air from an unexpected direction), they could be very effective, but the lack of endurance means the stealth is going to be used protecting you as you run back to the ammo trucks to reload.  Apparently I'm not alone in my dubiousness about the benefits for the costs given the MUL's characterization of them as Unique (note that means “very very limited production” in MUL speak, not “There can be only one!”).

Whichever variant you're using, figure out one ammo type you want to use and use it exclusively.  The originally literally can't be choosy and the variant doesn't have enough endurance to try.  Otherwise, treat them like normal artillery units – take cover and don't expose yourself, but try to stay close enough to reduce flight times as much as you can.  It helps that both Danais are on the speedier side for support elements.  Some sort of “discouragement” for hunter-killer units should probably be contemplated, too.  The lack of a turret mount for the artillery piece does ding their effectiveness a bit.

If you're fighting these things, there's not too much to say.  A whole lance of them has enough firepower to make charging them a little dubious, especially if there's a guard dog or two sitting around, but not enough to make it out of the question, either.  Counter-battery fire may be a little hard to land since either variant is mobile enough to make shoot-and-scoot tactics practical, but given that we're talking about vehicles, you've got a chance to disable them, which will make it easier.

References: The Master Unit List only covers the original at the moment but this should soon be corrected.  The only Danai on CamoSpecs to date is in the colors of the 3rd Canopian Light Horse.

Colt Ward

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #1 on: 23 April 2012, 18:59:45 »
I like that it fits in the small bay and is fast . . . I do question having all the extra anti-mech and AP weapons instead of fitting more ammo.  So at least 200 of these were made, maybe more but that would depend on shipping during the Jihad?
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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #2 on: 23 April 2012, 19:42:58 »
A pair of ERMLs is just enough that, in groups, you can keep lights off of you.  That's about as much as something like this needs and wants.  Sure, you don't have two types of ammo, but given the other virtues of the design (including a reasonable ammunition endurance), I'm willing to accept that.  It also means that the Danais aren't useless for helping to guard the other support elements when they're moving in convoys.  The Danai Arrow is perhaps investing too much.  On the other hand, cutting the Magshots to the bone isn't really a great idea if someone charges into short range with you, either, and the MCAF is not exactly overflowing with stealth units to act as guard dogs.  Since both are still well clear of the Chapparral's mark, to say nothing of the Huey, I'm not really inclined to see the defensive armament as excessive.

And there aren't any AP weapons on either design.

Maelwys

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #3 on: 23 April 2012, 20:08:35 »
Every time I decide I like the design, I remember the ammo. Its just enough to always give me a nagging feeling when I'm trying to decide whether or not to take the design.

It would be nice to take multiple types of ammunition, but at the same time, I look at it and realize I'm probably never going to use all 40 rounds. Damned if you do, damned if you don't it seems.

The Danai Arrow suffers the same problem. I'm fine with the Magshots..I don't really want my Artillery units fighting with things that might need more firepower. The two tons of ammo though...even if I didn't want to split the ammo between homing and non-homing, 10 rounds just isn't enough.

While I may hem and haw about taking a Danai to a game, I certainly wouldn't mind hearing about entire companies of the design being attached to MoC units :)

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #4 on: 23 April 2012, 20:23:48 »
See, on the Thumper I am inclined to split the ammo . . . 20 rounds norm, 20 rounds smoke.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #5 on: 24 April 2012, 00:50:28 »
It needs two ammo bins, if not three. I'd also argue for ER Flamers or Heavy Veh Flamers...

But it's nice as a ride for Fa Shih's to come along, set up a minefield and harrass anyone foolish enough to walk into them + minefield + dual erMLs
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #6 on: 24 April 2012, 02:39:32 »
See, on the Thumper I am inclined to split the ammo . . . 20 rounds norm, 20 rounds smoke.
Danais only come with 20 rounds max; one ton of ammo ain't much.  Personally I'd go with losing the lasers, adding one ton of ammo, and turreting the gun.  Then you can emphasize the "scoot" part of it using the things like the famous SP 17pdr, Valentine, Mk I, Archer.
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Maelwys

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #7 on: 24 April 2012, 03:21:17 »
Can artillery be turreted? I keep thinking it can't (perhaps because nothing other than Arrow IVs ever seems to be), but I can never find a rule specifically prohibiting it.

Dropping an ERML might work, but Total Warfare has provided an answer as well. Heavy FF Armor is enough to free up one ton (you can even increase the armor a bit!)

It needs two ammo bins, if not three. I'd also argue for ER Flamers or Heavy Veh Flamers...

But it's nice as a ride for Fa Shih's to come along, set up a minefield and harrass anyone foolish enough to walk into them + minefield + dual erMLs

At 20 rounds per bin, 3 bins would just be too much, even if you're mixing and matching ammo types. About the only time you'd ever need that much ammo would be on a campaign setting. Nice in theory, but most people would immediately look at the design and say "Its nice, but it needs another ton of armor, etc in place of the 3rd ton of ammo"

The problem with setting up a Minefield and the Fa Shih is at 5/8, with artillery on the board, I'd want the Danai to be moving.

Damn, now that I'm talking about having the Danai with multiple tons of ammo, I can't help but wonder if the MoC has some really good TAGers out there...I know the Eyleuka..what else could they use?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #8 on: 24 April 2012, 04:54:49 »
Can artillery be turreted? I keep thinking it can't (perhaps because nothing other than Arrow IVs ever seems to be), but I can never find a rule specifically prohibiting it.

That's like asking if the Thumper is something that can only be mounted on a wheeled chassis-because that's ALL it's ever mounted on, in spite of being a ton-for-ton match with both Arrow IV and AC/20, nobody seems to ever put it on anything but slightly low-performance wheeled chassis that are pretty much confined to pavement.

Quote
Dropping an ERML might work, but Total Warfare has provided an answer as well. Heavy FF Armor is enough to free up one ton (you can even increase the armor a bit!)

At 20 rounds per bin, 3 bins would just be too much, even if you're mixing and matching ammo types. About the only time you'd ever need that much ammo would be on a campaign setting. Nice in theory, but most people would immediately look at the design and say "Its nice, but it needs another ton of armor, etc in place of the 3rd ton of ammo"

The problem with setting up a Minefield and the Fa Shih is at 5/8, with artillery on the board, I'd want the Danai to be moving.

Damn, now that I'm talking about having the Danai with multiple tons of ammo, I can't help but wonder if the MoC has some really good TAGers out there...I know the Eyleuka..what else could they use?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #9 on: 24 April 2012, 15:39:27 »
From a strategic standpoint I would not worry about the ammo bins.  Given these are artillery pieces I would expect to find a J-27 parked nearby.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #10 on: 24 April 2012, 16:31:12 »
That's like asking if the Thumper is something that can only be mounted on a wheeled chassis-because that's ALL it's ever mounted on, in spite of being a ton-for-ton match with both Arrow IV and AC/20, nobody seems to ever put it on anything but slightly low-performance wheeled chassis that are pretty much confined to pavement.

Dead on for the most part, although the Teppo's Sniper is turret-mounted.  There might be another one somewhere, I'd have to look, but generally, no, it's not done.

However, the AC/20 is slightly lighter than the Thumper.  Ultra/20s or Gauss rifles, on the other hand...

Maelwys

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #11 on: 24 April 2012, 22:21:28 »
Maybe I just remember the HGR rule, and think that if HGR can't be mounted in a turret, then an artillery piece can't either. Oh well. Good to know that they can :)

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #12 on: 25 April 2012, 04:36:43 »
I think what you people really want to use are the fractional accounting rules that let you take ammo is less then one ton increments, if on-board, 20 rounds seems quite reasonable, maybe

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #13 on: 25 April 2012, 04:46:56 »
I think what you people really want to use are the fractional accounting rules that let you take ammo is less then one ton increments, if on-board, 20 rounds seems quite reasonable, maybe
I have no qualms with fractional accounting, indeed I prefer to do away with silly nonsense like LRM-5 and LRM-10 using different bins...

but the key here is using different ammo types. I can't imagine anyone mixing ammo types between two bins... and IMO building a bin into a machine that is half-measure (other than MG) isn't realistic...

though I might consider it, if a result of damage due to maintenance or part of giving it a Quirk: difficult to reload
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #14 on: 25 April 2012, 22:01:06 »
How is it unrealistic to tailor your ammo load down to the last round...sort of like nearly every combat machine ever made really?

What's unrealistic is preset ammo allotments that are all one size fits all for every weapon system out there, even when some of them are specifically listed as having the same effect, but are using different rates of fire and calibers!

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #15 on: 26 April 2012, 01:59:28 »
Well it's game mechanics.

In-universe, Autocannons are much more powerful... they fire a steady stream and are hurt by the game rules. If you look at the Solaris rules, an AC/10 really puts out 40 damage per turn, just to give an example.

I always look at the game separate from the universe.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #16 on: 26 April 2012, 14:32:13 »
The Thumper version can be of use, especially in lance size or large formations.

As a long time Arrow user, 10 rounds is not enough by far. Even with ten rounds of homing, you're running bin dry before the fight is over. With artillery, you need more ammo than you think you do. Two reasons for that. First is you are firing every single turn, volume is power. The second is artillery is more often used with larger maps and larger maps are longer games.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #17 on: 26 April 2012, 20:36:24 »
That's like asking if the Thumper is something that can only be mounted on a wheeled chassis-because that's ALL it's ever mounted on, in spite of being a ton-for-ton match with both Arrow IV and AC/20, nobody seems to ever put it on anything but slightly low-performance wheeled chassis that are pretty much confined to pavement.

Frankly I don't know why you would use anything heavier than wheels for artillery anyway. You can't go in woods and some rough. Big deal. Your range is huge anyway so micro positioning isn't as big as a deal. Strategic movement through terrain rough enough to stop a wheeled tank completely will likely include the heavy terrain which will stop a tracked tank. The clustery artillery damage you are likely to take is just as nasty for a tracked tank. And wheeled gives you extra tonnage for nice stuff like extra ammo.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #18 on: 27 April 2012, 04:37:01 »
Frankly I don't know why you would use anything heavier than wheels for artillery anyway. You can't go in woods and some rough. Big deal. Your range is huge anyway so micro positioning isn't as big as a deal. Strategic movement through terrain rough enough to stop a wheeled tank completely will likely include the heavy terrain which will stop a tracked tank. The clustery artillery damage you are likely to take is just as nasty for a tracked tank. And wheeled gives you extra tonnage for nice stuff like extra ammo.

It's called keeping up with the advance.  The terrain restrictions alone for wheeled make that a dodgy proposition, and if you want fast time-on-targets (aka not waiting three turns for the shells to land where you hope the other guy's going to be three turns from when you fired) you need that mobility-which you don't have with wheels.

Besides, I like being able to hide my shell-shuckers in the event I'm playing against someone who plays like me and is willing and able to use units to hunt those suckers down.  Being able to park in light woods or roughs to apply short-flight-time fire is darned useful, so is having parts commonality with my other tracked chassis from an RP/logistical standpoint, and then, there's the matter of not being trapped in the open, where anything fast enough with direct fire weapons can pretty much cruise/walk into range to eliminate my guns.

I like my platforms to be flexible.  Apparently, however, the canon setting prefers them to be junk.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #19 on: 27 April 2012, 08:58:00 »
I like my platforms to be flexible.  Apparently, however, the canon setting prefers them to be junk.

Let's be careful to separate fact from opinion. It's clear you prefer tracked. That Does not make wheeled artillery junk. It just makes it something you don't prefer.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #20 on: 27 April 2012, 10:25:52 »
8 years in the US Army and I never saw terrain completely impassable to HUMVEEs.  Just saying that even strategically there will always be a way for a wheeled vee to get through. 

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #21 on: 27 April 2012, 12:18:31 »
Let's be careful to separate fact from opinion. It's clear you prefer tracked. That Does not make wheeled artillery junk. It just makes it something you don't prefer.

I probably got a bit too snippy last night, but it DOES seem that while you can have Arrow IV on any chassis you can mention (well, maybe not hovercraft-but then, I haven't seen the latest XTRO yet...) the same weight thumper seems only to fit on wheeled vehicles.

which just strikes me as a bit strange, given that the Thumper was still IN production all through the succession wars, while the Arrow IV was most definitely OUT of production for a good number of years-as in more than a century.

it just seems strange to me.

8 years in the US Army and I never saw terrain completely impassable to HUMVEEs.  Just saying that even strategically there will always be a way for a wheeled vee to get through. 

Yep...and there are places we routinely took HMMTTs that, according to BT rules, wheeled vees just can't go...and that was now more than 20 years ago. (My god, I'm getting old...)
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #22 on: 27 April 2012, 12:40:06 »
I probably got a bit too snippy last night, but it DOES seem that while you can have Arrow IV on any chassis you can mention (well, maybe not hovercraft-but then, I haven't seen the latest XTRO yet...) the same weight thumper seems only to fit on wheeled vehicles.

There is a Regulator Arrow IV variant. Arrow IV are a lot easier to mount as they only have a fraction of the recoil of an artillery piece. Long Tom artillery has such a powerful recoil that no BattleMech can mount it.

The Thumper is not limited to wheeled vehicles, it is just where it is put. One of the reasons is weight. You can pack a Thumper in a fairly small chassis when you use wheels and have the speed benefit you get. If you go with tracks, you may as well go slow and put a bigger cannon on it.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #23 on: 27 April 2012, 12:51:21 »
Just sayin, but unless there's some rule against it I can't find (and that Solaris Armor Werks isn't aware of), it's entirely possible to fit a Thumper on a hover chassis.  Or a VTOL for that matter.  Then again, a 7/11 VTOL with a Thumper and 4 tons of armor is practically begging to be called a war crime, so there probably is a rule against it somewhere.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #24 on: 27 April 2012, 13:06:16 »
I know there is a Karnov with an artillery piece strapped to it but I don't remember what kind it is. 

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #25 on: 27 April 2012, 14:57:11 »
Different experiences I guess. With the local map makers, if you hit great swathes of light woods (for example) its merely a matter of time before it becomes great swathes of heavy woods rendering any advance by any tank moot.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #26 on: 27 April 2012, 15:31:26 »
The Thumper is not limited to wheeled vehicles, it is just where it is put. One of the reasons is weight. You can pack a Thumper in a fairly small chassis when you use wheels and have the speed benefit you get. If you go with tracks, you may as well go slow and put a bigger cannon on it.

Given it weighs the same as an arrow launcher and carries significantly more ammo per ton than it, weight seems a lousy reason. The arrow being shiny and new seems a more likely one. The houses do love their gadgets.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #27 on: 27 April 2012, 16:26:12 »
Given it weighs the same as an arrow launcher and carries significantly more ammo per ton than it, weight seems a lousy reason. The arrow being shiny and new seems a more likely one. The houses do love their gadgets.
[/quote

Which makes it weigh less. You need at least four tons for an Arrow IV to be battlefield viable and equal the tonnage of a Thumper with one ton. That's 3 tons weight difference.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Danai Support Vehicle
« Reply #28 on: 27 April 2012, 19:37:00 »
yeah, doy, my brain is apparently only up to half-reading posts right now.  #P
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