Tank weight RE: Offensive Operations

[SCC]

Brought this over from fan articles before I get in trouble

Personally I'd rather use the weight for a few MGs and more LRMs instead of making the tank lighter. I prefer using tanks as "second wave" forces offensively, so I'll just pack them in as cargo anyway.

The point is if you use 50 tonners (or less) you can carry 3 of them for the same transport weight as a single 'Mech (talking bays here), in these weight classes a well designed tank should have comparable armor and firepower to similar weight 'Mech, maybe a tad slow but for the sort of tank we're talking about it's not big deal, and you get several of them and the versatility that offers is huge

[Hellraiser]

The Seeker Class Dropship agrees with your theory.

[Ian Sharpe]

Agree with the basic premise if I need large numbers of vees for ready use in an invasion or lack sufficient mechs.  The Myrmidon is one of the best vees for the role, being mobile, well-armed and armoured for a direct combat role. 

[SCC]

It was not so much large numbers more so much that being that little bit heavier increases combat power less then your transport capabilities go down

[Colt Ward]

Though since armor is less likely to roll off the dropship and into combat . . . packing them up as cargo for the heavier designs might work better.

[A. Lurker]

Maybe it's just me, but for the initial wave in an offensive drop onto a hostile planet I'd want primarily 'Mechs on the ground and fighters in the air, perhaps supported by some hovercraft and/or VTOLs for their own individual strengths. Actual tanks would only come in later after the immediate area was pacified, which generally means that they can just as well ride as cargo.

Defensively, sure, I'd want tanks. Enough of them to bury any hopeful invading or raiding force under their sheer weight alone and then some. ;) But on the attack they don't really do anything that 'Mechs can't do as well or better except possibly ride in smaller bays...which would be taken up by the above-mentioned hovers and VTOLs first and foremost already, anyway.

[Sami Jumppanen]

Maybe it's just me, but for the initial wave in an offensive drop onto a hostile planet I'd want primarily 'Mechs on the ground and fighters in the air, perhaps supported by some hovercraft and/or VTOLs for their own individual strengths. Actual tanks would only come in later after the immediate area was pacified, which generally means that they can just as well ride as cargo.

Defensively, sure, I'd want tanks. Enough of them to bury any hopeful invading or raiding force under their sheer weight alone and then some. ;) But on the attack they don't really do anything that 'Mechs can't do as well or better except possibly ride in smaller bays...which would be taken up by the above-mentioned hovers and VTOLs first and foremost already, anyway.

There is a problem if you need to bug out. Loading those tanks is going to take time.

[A. Lurker]

There is a problem if you need to bug out. Loading those tanks is going to take time.

If I need to suddenly and immediately bug out after unloading them, something's gone horribly wrong with my plans anyway. After all, by that time the drop zone should be secure. (This assumes I'm here to stay, too. If all I want to do is stage a quick in-and-out raid or surgical strike, I'll leave the tanks at home to hold the fort in the first place.)

[Sabelkatten]

A. Lurker pretty much sums up my point. Tanks - other than VTOLs and (possibly) hovers - shouldn't be part of the initial drop or raid. Offensively you deploy them after your mechs have secured a LZ and then (IMHO) use them to support your mechs as you push for your targets and to provide rear-area security.

If things go bad you should generally have time to pull out in an ordered fashion, especially since your tanks are usually closer to your LZ than your main mech forces. You may be forced to leave some behind, but that's the risk of being rearguard and applies to mechs as well as tanks.

If things go real bad your tanks will be up the creek, of course. But since that usually means a total rout even your mechs may well end up not being able to make it out. The problem not so much being about loading up but about making it to the DS at all!

And of course you can still leave the tanks but rescue the crew.

[SCC]

If I need to suddenly and immediately bug out after unloading them, something's gone horribly wrong with my plans anyway. After all, by that time the drop zone should be secure. (This assumes I'm here to stay, too. If all I want to do is stage a quick in-and-out raid or surgical strike, I'll leave the tanks at home to hold the fort in the first place.)

No, just if you need to load them in a hurry period, the standard 60-ton MBT takes 5 minutes to load as cargo, during which your 'Mechs will have to cover the DS, and you can only load so many of them at a time, where as the 'Mechs and any Vee's going into bays take a single turn (10 seconds)

[A. Lurker]

No, just if you need to load them in a hurry period, the standard 60-ton MBT takes 5 minutes to load as cargo, during which your 'Mechs will have to cover the DS, and you can only load so many of them at a time, where as the 'Mechs and any Vee's going into bays take a single turn (10 seconds)

As I said -- if I suddenly find myself in such a tearing hurry to leave on short notice that the difference between seconds and minutes actually matters, something's already gone horribly pear-shaped. At which point simply cutting my losses and running is probably the preferable option to wasting time hanging around to make sure every last tank is stowed away (and potentially risking the loss of one or more entire DropShips instead) in the first place.

Besides, if I have anything to say about it all my 'MBTs' will belong to the walking kind to begin with. ;)

[FedComGirl]

No, just if you need to load them in a hurry period, the standard 60-ton MBT takes 5 minutes to load as cargo, during which your 'Mechs will have to cover the DS, and you can only load so many of them at a time, where as the 'Mechs and any Vee's going into bays take a single turn (10 seconds)

Wouldn't the 60 ton MBT also take 10 seconds when loading into a bay? If you're worried you might have leave quickly make sure you have enough at least enough bays for all your front line combat troops. The reserves and support vehicles can be carried as cargo. That way unless things go super horribly wrong you can still load up quickly. And if things go that badly slow units are going to end up abandoned and they'll be overrun anyway.

[SCC]

Wouldn't the 60 ton MBT also take 10 seconds when loading into a bay? If you're worried you might have leave quickly make sure you have enough at least enough bays for all your front line combat troops. The reserves and support vehicles can be carried as cargo. That way unless things go super horribly wrong you can still load up quickly. And if things go that badly slow units are going to end up abandoned and they'll be overrun anyway.

If the Tank goes into a bay it would take 10 seconds to load, but as it's going in as cargo it takes 5 minutes, it would be one of your reserves, my argument was that those extra ten tons may make the tank more powerful, but the bigger bay it now needs isn't worth using

[FedComGirl]

If the Tank goes into a bay it would take 10 seconds to load, but as it's going in as cargo it takes 5 minutes, it would be one of your reserves, my argument was that those extra ten tons may make the tank more powerful, but the bigger bay it now needs isn't worth using

Ah, I gotcha. In that case would the 60 ton tank be something you could afford to lose? It is a reserve unit so its not as critical as your frontline units. If you can afford to use it have it cover your loading troops then have the crew abandon it and run for the dropship. If you can't afford to lose it, then it should load up first and hope the other units can hold off the enemy troops long enough so they can get onboard. Otherwise, spring for the bigger bay.

[Sami Jumppanen]

A. Lurker pretty much sums up my point. Tanks - other than VTOLs and (possibly) hovers - shouldn't be part of the initial drop or raid. Offensively you deploy them after your mechs have secured a LZ and then (IMHO) use them to support your mechs as you push for your targets and to provide rear-area security.

If things go bad you should generally have time to pull out in an ordered fashion, especially since your tanks are usually closer to your LZ than your main mech forces. You may be forced to leave some behind, but that's the risk of being rearguard and applies to mechs as well as tanks.

If things go real bad your tanks will be up the creek, of course. But since that usually means a total rout even your mechs may well end up not being able to make it out. The problem not so much being about loading up but about making it to the DS at all!

And of course you can still leave the tanks but rescue the crew.

Just to point out that when people realise that they will be walking home (or to the drop ship in this case) may cause that rout. And then you will be losing those mechs too. That is ofcource unless you have practiced that sort of scenario with your troops and they know what needs to be done, but i doubt that those things are practiced all that often.

So i'm quessing that you don't take risks like that if there are other options.

[Sabelkatten]

Just to point out that when people realise that they will be walking home (or to the drop ship in this case) may cause that rout. And then you will be losing those mechs too. That is ofcource unless you have practiced that sort of scenario with your troops and they know what needs to be done, but i doubt that those things are practiced all that often.

So i'm quessing that you don't take risks like that if there are other options.

Unless my troops are already running I should have the minutes needed to load my tanks. Now 5 minutes per tank may sound like a lot (you can only load one item at a time per door, right? So if I want to load 24 60-ton tanks into  a DS with 4 doors it will take 30 minutes?), but consider the situation: I'm not bring tanks along on a raid, so it's an invasion force.

Since that means I'm going to need a secure LZ I've got to land, at the very least, outside artillery range of any defenders - probably at least 20-30 km from the nearest target. If I'll need to pull out that's how far away the enemy is likely to be when I make the decision. Unless my forces are completely routed it's going to take a major enemy force at least half an hour to reach my LZ, probably quite a bit more unless they want to get ambushed to pieces!

If my troops are routed I may well have to pull out my DS before my ground forces even reach the LZ making loading time a moot point. If the enemy manages to sneak past my scouts and (successfully) attack my LZ my ground troops won't even by moving back when I have to pull out, so loading time again becomes a moot point.

[epic]

Unless my troops are already running I should have the minutes needed to load my tanks. Now 5 minutes per tank may sound like a lot (you can only load one item at a time per door, right? So if I want to load 24 60-ton tanks into  a DS with 4 doors it will take 30 minutes?), but consider the situation: I'm not bring tanks along on a raid, so it's an invasion force.

Since that means I'm going to need a secure LZ I've got to land, at the very least, outside artillery range of any defenders - probably at least 20-30 km from the nearest target. If I'll need to pull out that's how far away the enemy is likely to be when I make the decision. Unless my forces are completely routed it's going to take a major enemy force at least half an hour to reach my LZ, probably quite a bit more unless they want to get ambushed to pieces!

If my troops are routed I may well have to pull out my DS before my ground forces even reach the LZ making loading time a moot point. If the enemy manages to sneak past my scouts and (successfully) attack my LZ my ground troops won't even by moving back when I have to pull out, so loading time again becomes a moot point.

So the doctrine of your hypothetical force is "If we ain't winning, we know the dropships are leaving without us!" 
---  Sounds Capellan to me.  :)

[Thatguybil]

So the doctrine of your hypothetical force is "If we ain't winning, we know the dropships are leaving without us!" 
---  Sounds Capellan to me.  :)

No but if they are carried as cargo... They will be covering for the mechs. :)

[Sami Jumppanen]

Unless my troops are already running I should have the minutes needed to load my tanks. Now 5 minutes per tank may sound like a lot (you can only load one item at a time per door, right? So if I want to load 24 60-ton tanks into  a DS with 4 doors it will take 30 minutes?), but consider the situation: I'm not bring tanks along on a raid, so it's an invasion force.

Since that means I'm going to need a secure LZ I've got to land, at the very least, outside artillery range of any defenders - probably at least 20-30 km from the nearest target. If I'll need to pull out that's how far away the enemy is likely to be when I make the decision. Unless my forces are completely routed it's going to take a major enemy force at least half an hour to reach my LZ, probably quite a bit more unless they want to get ambushed to pieces!

If my troops are routed I may well have to pull out my DS before my ground forces even reach the LZ making loading time a moot point. If the enemy manages to sneak past my scouts and (successfully) attack my LZ my ground troops won't even by moving back when I have to pull out, so loading time again becomes a moot point.

Just to point out: You won't be making decisions just because enemy gets within 20-30 km from your LZ. You will make the decision when enemy gets that close AND your forces fail to repel them. This means that you lost a large number of your troops or they were outmanouvered (not too difficult as you can't possibly cover area with a radius of 20-30 km all that well and still have enough forces to complete your mission) and enemy got past your forces. Enemy can push past agressively because they get to choose the route they use and therefore unless you quess correctly what route they use your forces will be spread thin and enemy can push past them despite the losses.

I think that if you tried to leave without even trying to pick up your troops you would be immediately removed from command.

[Jackmc]

A. Lurker pretty much sums up my point. Tanks - other than VTOLs and (possibly) hovers - shouldn't be part of the initial drop or raid. Offensively you deploy them after your mechs have secured a LZ and then (IMHO) use them to support your mechs as you push for your targets and to provide rear-area security.

Think bigger grasshopper.  You throw VDC's on a company of Myrmidons and push them out over the enemy's rear area, and suddenly there's a potent enough force behind their lines that they can't ignore it, which means its that much harder for the enemy to oppose at the LZ.  And if it all goes to hell, they're small enough to recover with small craft which thanks to their inherent VTOL capability can pick them up darn near anywhere.


-Jackmc

[A. Lurker]

Just to point out: You won't be making decisions just because enemy gets within 20-30 km from your LZ. You will make the decision when enemy gets that close AND your forces fail to repel them. This means that you lost a large number of your troops or they were outmanouvered (not too difficult as you can't possibly cover area with a radius of 20-30 km all that well and still have enough forces to complete your mission) and enemy got past your forces. Enemy can push past agressively because they get to choose the route they use and therefore unless you quess correctly what route they use your forces will be spread thin and enemy can push past them despite the losses.

I think that if you tried to leave without even trying to pick up your troops you would be immediately removed from command.

Are we still talking specifically about tanks, or is this now more about general strategy and tactics? (Also, damn straight will I be making decisions if the enemy is only 20-30 klicks away from my LZ. That means that even a 4/6 ground unit can suddenly be at my doorstep within half an hour or so of departure if I let it -- and any fighters they may have can cover the distance in a lot less --, so I'm certainly not going to simply twiddle my thumbs and ignore them.)

[Sami Jumppanen]

Are we still talking specifically about tanks, or is this now more about general strategy and tactics? (Also, damn straight will I be making decisions if the enemy is only 20-30 klicks away from my LZ. That means that even a 4/6 ground unit can suddenly be at my doorstep within half an hour or so of departure if I let it -- and any fighters they may have can cover the distance in a lot less --, so I'm certainly not going to simply twiddle my thumbs and ignore them.)

What difference does it make if this is about tanks or everything in general? Anyway, as i tried to point out you don't have enough forces to keep eye on that perimeter of yours. That is 125-180 km long line you would meed to cover and even then you wouldn't have any depht in your pickets. Enemy will get closer than that.

Also, you realy have only those options to deal with the enemy that gets close: Ignore or bug out?


Anyway, i think we should let this be. It would be useless to argue about this without having a scenario that both can think of.

[Colt Ward]

Scenario is simple . . . use the ELH's advance on Milos space port from Dagger Point novel.  The ELH had a broad front IIRC, sweeping for their target but landed the DS like 3 days out.  Pathfinders dropped ahead of time to mark the landing zones, and the mechs moved out immediately while the defenders were scrambling to throw up roadblocks.  The broad front made it difficult for the defenders- a MAC battalion- to stop them, and we did not see the full combat power of the ELH units deployed on the front line.  You can assume that the ELH had some sort of LZ security element, infantry and armor battalions, to protect the dropships and the support structure they brought in.  Then you have the convoys moving mobile field repair equipment forward and trucks with rearming ammo.  Artillery units deployed behind the front line but close enough to support pushes.

The 'front line' is not a single line of troops sweeping forward with no connection to the LZ or just a connection being a single road.  The AO is going to have units scattered behind for support operations or artillery fire . . . the edges of the front line will be held by cavalry screens to keep anyone from getting around the flanks in a timely manner.

Besides, anything you pull off the frontline to slip around the edges and raid the enemy's rear area will be something you could have thrown into the fight to keep the enemy from the objective.  On top of that, what you send must be fast- aka cavalry- to get into there to make an impact, it also has to be fast to get past the screening cavalry on the flanks.

[Scotty]

If there's an enemy force bearing down on the LZ from 20-30 km away, unless my guys are kicking the crap out of the enemy, I'm going to be loading up the tanks and stuff that I can't fit in a bay.  That doesn't mean everything, that means I'm getting a headstart on the stuff that takes comparatively forever, just in case.

[SCC]

Think about it this way, if we drop the Manticore down to 50-tons, it now takes up 50 tons of the DS weather it's cargo or in a bay, which would you prefer?

[Maingunnery]

A. Lurker pretty much sums up my point. Tanks - other than VTOLs and (possibly) hovers - shouldn't be part of the initial drop or raid. Offensively you deploy them after your mechs have secured a LZ and then (IMHO) use them to support your mechs as you push for your targets and to provide rear-area security.

I would love to have myrmidons in my raid force. The VTOLs and hovers have to use the same transports as them anyway.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

If there's an enemy force bearing down on the LZ from 20-30 km away, unless my guys are kicking the crap out of the enemy, I'm going to be loading up the tanks and stuff that I can't fit in a bay.  That doesn't mean everything, that means I'm getting a headstart on the stuff that takes comparatively forever, just in case.

Load time depends on the number of doors you have.  If you are raiding with a Fortress for example you have two door for the vehicle bays, and can get your armor aboard (assuming no one fouls the doors) in a minute.  It'll take twice that to get the mechs aboard, assuming all make it to the dropship.  OTOH any counterattack that tries to press an attack home against a dropzone will have to deal with the ship's weapons, which can very well be a heavier weight of fire than the entire force the dropship carried.  Or at least not something a pursuit force will tangle with lightly.

Dropships like the Seeker or Excalibur with a large number of vehicles and only one door to load them from are simply not built to be raiders.  It takes forever to load or unload them and trying to do so at combat speeds makes fouling that door almost certain.  The later however is almost certain to be reserved for major planetary assaults rather than raids.  In case of a bugout they would be the ones I'd try to load first, since they will need extra time, and save dropships with plenty of doors for getting the finally defenders on board before boosting out.

[Colt Ward]

Well, you would also rather have the Fortress with its weapons load sitting in the DZ than the Excalibur . . . for one thing, if the Excalibur gets hit enough it cannot make it off world, you just lost a bigger ship and bigger portion of your forces than the Fortress.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

True, that Long Tom makes for a powerful argument to 'chase them off world' rather than be a (dead) hero trying to take the dropship.

I guess the point is what kind of offensive operations you are undertaking needs to be considered with your dropships as well.  If you are Mercs what you have can dictate how close you land to the target.  A 'raider' design like a Fortress or Union that can spam out most of it's force in a minute and has armor and firepower to at least stand some fire in the DZ means you can land closer to the target.  Note the Overlord qualifies as well based on offload times.  Seekers, and most vehicle transports have large numbers of units and few doors, forcing you to use more distant but secure DZs to stage from.

Of course that is for raids.  If we are talking a full blown invasion (either offense or reinforcing the defenses) then you can drop your 'raiders' in first to secure the drophead, then your dropships that will take a while to offload can come in on the wave behind them to a secure DZ.