Fluff Question - Age in the Military

[BirdDog]

Hi all,

Couple fluff questions for a few character backgrounds.

Has there been anything stated officially that would indicate GENERAL ages for soldiers in the Federated Suns or Lyran militaries around 3050?

I.e., what would be the average age for enlistment? Also specifically looking for the average age of a Sergeant Major.

Looking to real-life equivalents, all my information comes from the Army Reserve (my branch) so its hard to set a standard, since a) we're talking a thousand years in the future, and b) we're talking an active-duty mechwarrior.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Grognard]

IRL, I work with 4 SargeantMajors.
38,41,41,42

[Stormfury]

Fluff in Blood of Kerensky mentions that most only earn Battalion command in their 30s. Most regimental commanders seem to be in their 50s, brigade commanders a bit older still.

I would expect the post of Sergeant-Major to be held by a career soldier. Mid-to-late thirties would be ablout as low as I would go unless it was a new unit or, in BT, an inherited position that is traditionally held by the scion of family X... which is a possibility, albeit unlikely. Some ranks in BT are hereditary; the ones we've seen have all been command posts, but I suppose anything goes with such whackiness.

Most BT militaries allow for enlistment to start at the age of majority in that realm, so most likely 18-21.

[Iron Mongoose]

Starting ages seem to be much the same as real life, perhaps in the cases of nobility even younger.  All the acadamy grads we see are about the same age, in their early 20s.

In Malicious Intent, Doc Trevena mentions that he's waiting to serve out his 20 years to retire, so that is similar to real life, too, despite the fact the people (outside of combat) tend to live longer.  Doc's service started when he was 21, so had his plan worked, he would have retired at 41.  In the FWL, there is an award for "life service" given after 20 years, with bars every ten after that, but recipiants are considered to be "old" warriors.  There seems to be no maximum age, or at least its poorly and irregularly inforced, since there are more than a few centanerian mechwarriors.  But, one imagines that anyone into their mid 40s or 50s (to say nothing of their 60s and 70s) would be a very highly motovated veteran, and very likely either a senior command officer or a very senior NCO.

So, while command staff might be older than real life (since health improvements make it possible to keep serving much longer) rank and file warriors will tend to be younger rather than older.

[Crunch]

The original House Davion book has military service starting at 16.

[Nav_Alpha]

The original House Davion book has military service starting at 16.

You're right. An thus does bring up some interesting questions.
I actually joined the reserves as a 17 year old. But most senior NCOs I know are anywhere between 30-40. Sergeant major is a particularly senior rank and I'd expect it to be filled by an experienced, "lifer" type.

But as crunch points out, during the early stages of battletech we seemed to have a much younger start age.
Remember Grayson Caryle started his mech apprenticeship at 10 and The early books indicated this was pretty standard.

[idea weenie]

But as crunch points out, during the early stages of battletech we seemed to have a much younger start age.
Remember Grayson Caryle started his mech apprenticeship at 10 and The early books indicated this was pretty standard.

For apprenticeships, I'd see that as not just military training, but schooling as well.  Mathematics, protocol, logistics, organization, etc.

Now what would be fun is trying to find an average age of personnel in WW2 units, since those would be along the lines of total war, with more people involved.  Currently we are keeping in the more experienced people, so it might shift the bell curve towards older personnel.

[Archangel]

For apprenticeships, I'd see that as not just military training, but schooling as well.  Mathematics, protocol, logistics, organization, etc.

Now what would be fun is trying to find an average age of personnel in WW2 units, since those would be along the lines of total war, with more people involved.  Currently we are keeping in the more experienced people, so it might shift the bell curve towards older personnel.

And most of that mostly involves maintaining and repairing Mechs not learning how to pilot them and, especially since is largely restricted to mercenaries (or MechWarrior stables) and mechwarrior families, is not considered part of the military career.

[five_corparty]

didn't the LC drop the age of enlistment to 14 at one point?  I can't find it off the top of my head.  But I think 16 is the standard in the IS, maybe up to 18 for some worlds (I would think someone moving up from "high school" to the academy would go in at 18ish, just like in RL, while regular enlistees would come in at 16 or above)

all bets are off for merc units, of course- lots of merc-brats (and nobles) learn to pilot at a WAY younger age, so it wouldn't be unheard of for a kid to take the controls if a parent passed.  not sure if we've seen a story that explicitly has that in it, but I remember one about a girl who finds a mech and claims it, with a damn cool ending...  anyhoo, I think piloting it was her intent.  damn, I'll have to dig that up and re-read that...

[snakespinner]

Did not Allard join the Kell Hounds straight from the academy at 17 years old.
I remember reading that he started at the academy at 14.

[monty]

Now what would be fun is trying to find an average age of personnel in WW2 units, since those would be along the lines of total war, with more people involved.  Currently we are keeping in the more experienced people, so it might shift the bell curve towards older personnel.

IIRC there's quite a variation between the U.S. & other nations during WW2 with many U.S. troops actually being a few years older than you would expect (24-25) & in fact older on average than they were in Korea or Vietnam.

[Davout73]

The average age of a soldier in WW2 was 26, in Vietnam it was 22 (despite what Paul Hardcastle "sang" about).
However, in WW2 studies have shown that it was older soldiers and sailors that were in the more "Logisitical" Positions, as an example the average age of a Marine Rifleman was 22, but the average age of a SeeBee was 31.  Between December 1941 and Febuary 1942, 186,360 men enlisted in the U.S. Army. Although the average age of a soldier in 1941 was 26, the newly enlisted soldier was typically younger than the draftee in the next bunk over, with 39.9 percent of those enlisting between the ages of 18 and 21, while only 14.7 percent of the draftees were as young.

It would also appear that IS militaries do not have an "Up or Out" career path, in that once a soldier reaches a certain level of rank (which assumes a certain level of competence as well, even for us Lyran Fans) they can stay in for life.  Many commanders listed in the original house books 3025 TO&E's were commanders in 3050.

It would appear most houses use a similar pace of rank progression.  Cadet's leave an academy around age 20, 3-5 years in rank from Lieutenant to Major, then promotion slows, with Command Slots being filled by Officers with 20 plus years experience.

There's always going to be exceptions (such as Allard) but they are not the norm.

Dav

[Colt Ward]

Well, do not forget there are also the military prep schools . . . some of which would be very regimented.  And in the past, some of which contributed the 'boys' to battles when the nation was threatened.

[Stormlion1]

I'd say 16 to enlist and if the right schools are used, then in the early 20's for officers. Then again you have mercs that will genreally be in their teens when they either learn the family business or the other side of the coin, mid 20's to 30's for guys and gals who enlist in other services like the Comguards or most merc companys after they left service elsewhere.

[Emil]

It would also appear that IS militaries do not have an "Up or Out" career path, in that once a soldier reaches a certain level of rank (which assumes a certain level of competence as well, even for us Lyran Fans) they can stay in for life.  Many commanders listed in the original house books 3025 TO&E's were commanders in 3050.

It would appear most houses use a similar pace of rank progression.  Cadet's leave an academy around age 20, 3-5 years in rank from Lieutenant to Major, then promotion slows, with Command Slots being filled by Officers with 20 plus years experience.

If a lieutenant commands a lance, and a major commands a battalion, and they stay in each of those ranks for 3-5 years, wouldn't that mean that most lieutenants will get shoved out before they make major?

I could see a way around it if Successor State armies didn't mind having 40yo lieutenants, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Colt Ward]

Your forgetting the captain who commands the company?  Or the captains on battalion staffs?  or the captains & majors on regimental staffs?  or the captains, majors & colonels on brigade and theater staffs?

[Davout73]

Or those killed, in combat, who leave the service, retire, etc?

Your forgetting the captain who commands the company?  Or the captains on battalion staffs?  or the captains & majors on regimental staffs?  or the captains, majors & colonels on brigade and theater staffs?

[Crunch]

Or those killed, in combat, who leave the service, retire, etc?

Or the noble reservist from a Mechwarrior family who's technically a Captain in the LCAF but spends most of his time administrating his estate and playing state politics.

[Nebfer]

Well A Time of War goes of the notion of Stage 1 ends at age 10, stage 2 being 16, with stage 2 having the path of military school (which involves military things like melee weapons and small arms). While stage 3 which starts at 16ish, includes Basic and advanced training...

To train a mechwarrior it seems only takes two years, so they enter at 18ish (officer school adds another year), though to be fair every one gets at lest two years even an infantrymen (and up to five years)...

Well a Regiment it would seem would have (assuming the Regiment, battalion and company commanders are not directly leading a subordinate unit, so this is not a completely accurate look but a rough idea)
1x Colonel
1x Lt. Colonel (might replace one of the majors, though it might also be the commander of the regiment it self, particularly in armor and infantry formations)
3+ Major
9+ Captains
27+ Lieutenants

While some house military's have "two Lieutenant" ranks most that do seem to use the first as sort of a braking in rank...

Each battalion and regiment would likely have need of officers commanding various sub functions like, communications, intelligence, logistical, maintenance, medical, operational planing, personnel management (i.e. training) and possible an aid for the unit commander(s), ranks of Lieutenant and captains would be typical for battalion and regimental staffs, with a few majors as well.

Even with these staff officers your either seeing a very high turn over rates or your bound to see some Lieutenants being at that rank for some time... Though it's quite likely that serving at a "basic rank" for extended times is not unheard of, mechwarriors typically start at the range of Sergent, and likely would remain at that rank for much of their time in uniform...

Though it's also depends on how long the typical guy stays in, if they say average just 8 to 12 years then theirs probably not to much of an problem with rank advancements, but your going to see more problems with it if the average time in uniform is over 20 years... unless the time required for each rank is longer.

[Emil]

Your forgetting the captain who commands the company?  Or the captains on battalion staffs?  or the captains & majors on regimental staffs?  or the captains, majors & colonels on brigade and theater staffs?

If we assume there aren't many force-outs and people want to stick around 20 years to get a pension, the numbers still seem off.  Say we have Nebfer's situation where there's about 1/3 the number left in combat positions at each higher rank.  Assuming that casualty rates aren't all that high, there'd be significantly more captains and majors on battalion/regimental staffs than there are jockeying 'Mechs.  It'd be about the same if we assumed superior officers directly commanded their lance as well- then we'd have 1 colonel, 2 majors, 6 captains, and 18 lieutenants in a regiment.

I could see early retirements in the less professional armies of the 3SW period- put in your decade, then go back to the estate and live it up while the next member of the family takes over- but not so much in the professionalized 3050+ period.

[Gryphon]

Many military forces only authorize so many officers of any given rank though. So while many, many LTs might reach a point in service where they can be promoted, it might not be possible due to an absence of slots. I would expect lower LT, higher LT, and Captain to be something of a given for gradual promotion, but jumping to Major is not a given, there have to be slots open to ascend to that rank, and then but the time you get to Major, newer schooling seems to come into play too. Majors and Lt Colonels, Colonels and Brigadiers, and the other General ranks in US service all require a different school be attended before they are even considered promotable to the next rank. You can get to be a given rank, but you can't get beyond it without taking the classes for that rank first, and after Lt. Colonel, it appears you have to have the classes nearly immediately, because there seems to be a rush to move a newly promoted officer out of his current slot and into the classes.

In times of war, there are more slots open, and the Inner Sphere at least was pretty constantly at war for 300+ years. Not always, no, bu they were with at war or preparing for another, so "bloated" military structures were likely the more normal situation. And when "real" peace set in, many of those lower ranked officers were not encouraged to remain in service, and would be released, and allowed to join a local guard or militia unit instead.

Long story short, the number of offices needed to fill any given quota or rank level would be factored into recruitment over a period of time, and more or less would be accepted to avoid having too few or too many around at one time.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Given the number of wars of various types the Houses were always engaged in, I would think the losses by death and permanent injury to the officer ranks would keep the number of openings fairly high.

[Blacksheep]

Mostly in combat arms and stationed in key areas or with heavy combat roles while backwater combat units and rear area support positions would have a much lower attrition rate.  Similarly, low intensity conflict versus an all out war like the Jihad would have wildly varying casualty rates among all specialties.