Author Topic: Two WarShip Questions  (Read 4813 times)

The Hawk

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Two WarShip Questions
« on: 07 March 2011, 09:16:13 »
First, I observe that sarna.net's page on the First Succession War references a Free Worlds Alexander destroyer class when discussing the 2787 naval battle for the Bolson Shipyards in the Kyoto system (presumably New Kyoto).  The description in the original Steiner Housebook (p. 44), from which the description of this battle featured on sarna.net is largely based, references the two FWL destroyers in question -- Ripper and Tomain -- but does not reference their class.  My Google-fu indicates that the Shattered Dawn AU features a Marik Alexander class.  What I don't know is whether the chicken or the egg came first; is the AU statting out a referenced but unstatted WarShip class, or is this an instance of someone trying to inject their AU into canonical history?  Is there any detailed reference to this battle elsewhere I am missing which identifies Ripper and Tomain as Alexanders, or otherwise references but does not provide stats for the Alexander class?

Second, not unrelatedly, I observe that the historical Successor State WarShips with which we have been presented have been slanted noticeably toward the heavier end of the scale -- the Tharkads, Atreuses and Du Shi Wangs -- leaving the corvette, destroyer, frigate, and cruiser ranges pretty much solely to the Terran Hegemony/Star League Navy.  The only exceptions I can think of are the Mako, Davion, and the highly specialized Sylvester, Samarkand and Robinson hulls.  (I am intentionally ignoring the Periphery vessels, here.)  The question is, what obscure references do we have to smaller Successor State WarShip classes?

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #1 on: 07 March 2011, 10:31:51 »
First, I observe that sarna.net's page on the First Succession War references a Free Worlds Alexander destroyer class when discussing the 2787 naval battle for the Bolson Shipyards in the Kyoto system (presumably New Kyoto).  The description in the original Steiner Housebook (p. 44), from which the description of this battle featured on sarna.net is largely based, references the two FWL destroyers in question -- Ripper and Tomain -- but does not reference their class.  My Google-fu indicates that the Shattered Dawn AU features a Marik Alexander class.  What I don't know is whether the chicken or the egg came first; is the AU statting out a referenced but unstatted WarShip class, or is this an instance of someone trying to inject their AU into canonical history?  Is there any detailed reference to this battle elsewhere I am missing which identifies Ripper and Tomain as Alexanders, or otherwise references but does not provide stats for the Alexander class?
I've never heard of an Alexander class, so it probably doesn't have stats, and may well be someone's homebrew.  Sarna isn't known for its fact checking.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #2 on: 07 March 2011, 14:07:37 »
Second, not unrelatedly, I observe that the historical Successor State WarShips with which we have been presented have been slanted noticeably toward the heavier end of the scale -- the Tharkads, Atreuses and Du Shi Wangs -- leaving the corvette, destroyer, frigate, and cruiser ranges pretty much solely to the Terran Hegemony/Star League Navy.  The only exceptions I can think of are the Mako, Davion, and the highly specialized Sylvester, Samarkand and Robinson hulls.  (I am intentionally ignoring the Periphery vessels, here.)  The question is, what obscure references do we have to smaller Successor State WarShip classes?

I don't think so really.

We have 2 BS and 1 BC to date, of which only 1 is over 1MT iirc.

We also have a Corvette, 2 Transports, 2 Destroyers, a Carrier all under 600KT.

Lastly we have the Congress Frigate that was "supposedly" a Davion design stolen by SLDF.

What you have here is a very small representation of canon ships that covers a decent spectrum of tonnages,  IMHO.

We haven't seen all the SLDF ships statted out yet even and we have dozens of those,  the House ships have LOTS of room to be filled out to complete a proper navy.
I can't imagine any house (Well maybe Liao, known for small navy) not having at least 1 class of ship in each of the 4 major categories of Corvette, Destroyer, Cruiser, & Battleship.
And likely most of them also have some example of Transport, Carrier, & Frigate as well.
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DarthRads

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #3 on: 07 March 2011, 18:26:52 »
I don't think so really.

We have 2 BS and 1 BC to date, of which only 1 is over 1MT iirc.

We also have a Corvette, 2 Transports, 2 Destroyers, a Carrier all under 600KT.

Lastly we have the Congress Frigate that was "supposedly" a Davion design stolen by SLDF.

What you have here is a very small representation of canon ships that covers a decent spectrum of tonnages,  IMHO.

We haven't seen all the SLDF ships statted out yet even and we have dozens of those,  the House ships have LOTS of room to be filled out to complete a proper navy.
I can't imagine any house (Well maybe Liao, known for small navy) not having at least 1 class of ship in each of the 4 major categories of Corvette, Destroyer, Cruiser, & Battleship.
And likely most of them also have some example of Transport, Carrier, & Frigate as well.

exactly, what they have given us is 1-2 ships for each House

Nibs

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #4 on: 07 March 2011, 19:32:27 »
I've never heard of an Alexander class, so it probably doesn't have stats, and may well be someone's homebrew.  Sarna isn't known for its fact checking.

Yeah, it being a wiki tends to indicate that someone tried to sneak in their own material. On the plus side, it can still be edited and restored to canonicity!

Jellico

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #5 on: 07 March 2011, 21:33:49 »
A quick search of the House Books reveals no Alexander classes.

The Hawk

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #6 on: 07 March 2011, 22:56:31 »
Re: the Alexander, I suspected as much.

We also have a Corvette, 2 Transports, 2 Destroyers, a Carrier all under 600KT.

2 destroyers?  Did I miss one?

Lastly we have the Congress Frigate that was "supposedly" a Davion design stolen by SLDF.

Well, sort of; Challenge Systems was allegedly the designer and was ultimately included in the construction, but that's not exactly the same as establishing that they built the design for the FedSuns...

exactly, what they have given us is 1-2 ships for each House

Sure.  It's strange that they've tended so heavily towards the heavy hitter classes (although in the case of the Tharkad the reason was pretty obvious, and in the case of the Atreus it's statting out something that got an oblique reference in, IIRC, TRO2750.)

Still, from Terran Hegemony to Star League, the TH/SL only had four battleship classes we know about, but (by my count) ten destroyer classes.  Surprising that we've only seen one DD for two BB and 1 BC among the Successor States.  Hopefully some of the upcoming Historicals help rectify that.

ColBosch

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #7 on: 08 March 2011, 00:30:17 »
There is another possibility, though I know most folks won't want to hear it. This is just some random musings and should not be taken as a hint at canon yet to come; it's just an idea.

Perhaps the non-Hegemony Great Houses didn't make their own smaller ships, instead simply purchasing most of them whenever Terra upgraded its fleet. Canonically we know this happened at least a few times. Those of us who love the idea of great battlefleets have always assumed that there are dozens or hundreds of classes we have yet to see, but what if there aren't? Maybe the ships in TR2750/3057 really are the vast majority of classes, with the few obscure remainders doled out among niche sourcebooks.

If this is true - and I'm unaware of any canon that specifically denies it - what would it mean for the universe?
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #8 on: 08 March 2011, 00:33:33 »
Even more dead WarShip husks from fighters during years past, proportionally.
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ColBosch

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #9 on: 08 March 2011, 00:34:41 »
Even more dead WarShip husks from fighters during years past, proportionally.

This would explain why 'Ships are considered to be such a luxury, in-universe...
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Peacemaker

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #10 on: 08 March 2011, 00:45:30 »
There is another possibility, though I know most folks won't want to hear it. This is just some random musings and should not be taken as a hint at canon yet to come; it's just an idea.

Perhaps the non-Hegemony Great Houses didn't make their own smaller ships, instead simply purchasing most of them whenever Terra upgraded its fleet. Canonically we know this happened at least a few times. Those of us who love the idea of great battlefleets have always assumed that there are dozens or hundreds of classes we have yet to see, but what if there aren't? Maybe the ships in TR2750/3057 really are the vast majority of classes, with the few obscure remainders doled out among niche sourcebooks.

If this is true - and I'm unaware of any canon that specifically denies it - what would it mean for the universe?

I seriously doubt that will actually come to pass. The universe's array of military units tends to lean toward large varieties of different machines. Technical readouts are big sellers and the units that fill them have to come from somewhere. It's better to write up units from the past alongside new units instead of introducing a book full of new designs every five - ten years.

HavocTheWarDog

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #11 on: 08 March 2011, 01:50:41 »
I for one would love to see more warship classes...all fluffed and canonized! lol
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DarthRads

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #12 on: 08 March 2011, 06:24:50 »
well, there is still the New Syrtis class Fighter Cruiser mentioned in the Robinson fluff...

The Hawk

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #13 on: 08 March 2011, 10:30:41 »
If this is true - and I'm unaware of any canon that specifically denies it - what would it mean for the universe?

I would certainly agree that no canon specifically denies it, but there are good reasons to think it's not true:

1) WarShips (including many of those listed in the various TROs) were in production from 2300 to 2571, during which period the Hegemony and its neighbors were at least notionally hostile towards one another.  We know there were many naval actions during this period (the Capellan attack on Terra Firma in 2409, for example; the Bonaventure entry references a "powerful Kurita destroyer squadron" raiding Imbros III at the start of the Age of War.)  If the Houses weren't relying on native production, where were they getting their ships to prosecute this conflict?

2) At least two of the House vessels we've seen -- the Davion and the Du Shi Wang -- predate the Star League, yet continued in service until they were all destroyed in the Succession Wars.  If the Houses had an expectation of acquiring hand-me-down TH/SL ships, why keep these old vessels in service?  And if "national pride" is your answer:

3) TRO3075 makes it clear that as soon as the Houses got their hands on BattleMech technology, they started designing their own versions so as not to be dependent on the Hegemony-designed Mackie.  It would be surprising to discover they felt so strongly about BattleMechs, but not about the vessels that could break a BattleMech battalion with a single shot.

4) Finally, as a matter of textual analysis, this prospect seems to be obviated by the fluff of a lot of the ship classes.  We specifically know for a few classes (Aegis, Baron, Vigilant) that they were sold or gifted to the Houses.  Other classes seem from the fluff to be confirmably out of service by the beginning of the Amaris Crisis (Dart, Farragut [4A]).  Then there's another subset for which the fluff seems to account for all possible vessels in the class by establishing that there were X number of surviving vessels at the end of the Amaris Coup, all of which accompanied the Exodus fleet (except, in some cases, for Y that were scuttled) (Texas, Avatar, Sovietskii Soyuz [4B], McKenna, Black Lion [4C], Riga-that-became-York.)  This leaves several classes, such as the Carson or the original Riga, for which the last vessels were withdrawn from service or mothballed and could have been sold, or for which we have no information regarding their fates (Congress).  Point is, that's still pretty slim pickings in terms of a breadth of classes, particularly if you assume that the standard vessel of each class in the Star League fleet wasn't going to be sold off on the eve of the Succession Wars (your Vincents, Essexes, etc. [4D])

[4A] Of course, this might be looked on with some suspicion, since apparently the Wobblies managed to scrounge a Farra from somewhere.

[4B] Same for a Sov.

[4C] Though again, we know the FWL was able to recover a derelict, and the Wobblies have two (assuming Xanthos was not renamed after being subverted.)

[4D] Though who knows?  Despite being the only troop cruiser that we know of in the Star League arsenal, many Potemkins were decommissioned after the liberation of Terra and at least some were dismantled, but at least one (LCS Nightwind made its way into the Lyran navy.

With that diatribe out of the way, in response to your question -- I don't think it'd change things much.  One would imagine that the lack of infrastructure to build WarShips would help explain why they vanished so quickly in the Succession Wars, though, even though presumably some of your shipyards are going to be deep in the heart of the nation in supposedly safe places like Tharkad and Atreus.

DarthRads

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #14 on: 09 March 2011, 18:22:54 »

With that diatribe out of the way, in response to your question -- I don't think it'd change things much.  One would imagine that the lack of infrastructure to build WarShips would help explain why they vanished so quickly in the Succession Wars, though, even though presumably some of your shipyards are going to be deep in the heart of the nation in supposedly safe places like Tharkad and Atreus.

The warship yards were among the first targets of 1SW, based on the old house book info most yards were gone within 5 years

Hellraiser

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Re: Two WarShip Questions
« Reply #15 on: 13 March 2011, 11:36:52 »
2 destroyers?  Did I miss one?
Davion-1 & Davion-2.
Similar name but a major tonnage & performance change by adding Docking Collars & Fighters.

Quote
Well, sort of; Challenge Systems was allegedly the designer and was ultimately included in the construction, but that's not exactly the same as establishing that they built the design for the FedSuns...
Well in theory they could have been designing it for the SLDF but regardless it was a Suns company so it was likely for the Suns.


Quote
Still, from Terran Hegemony to Star League, the TH/SL only had four battleship classes we know about, but (by my count) ten destroyer classes.  Surprising that we've only seen one DD for two BB and 1 BC among the Successor States.  Hopefully some of the upcoming Historicals help rectify that.
Potential 5 BS IIRC though Yes, only 4 have stats so far. 
The Dreadnaut class has been called a BB & a BC in to different sources so I guess its still not for sure.



I think the TH/SLDF being the most economically powerful nation you will get more ship types, it only makes sense.
I would think the houses probably only had 1-2 of any single type and supplemented with TH surplus.

For Example, with the Dav-1 & Dav-2 and sold off TH models, I doubt we see another FedSuns Destroyer program till the never completed Durendel in the 3050's.
But there is still plenty of room for the Suns to have a Corvette & Battleship to supplement the pending Fighter-Cruiser.
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