Author Topic: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.  (Read 13038 times)

Avimimus

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #30 on: 05 May 2014, 15:54:19 »
I was wondering if such a warship would be feasible in the upper part of the speed range? It would take some intelligent piloting, but a warship with 7/11 or 8/12 might be able to control acceleration well enough to make use of the range advantage. The added performance might also allow multiple engagements - so not scoring a critical hit on the first approach would be acceptable. Sideways firing weapons would be ideal for this.
« Last Edit: 08 May 2014, 16:50:53 by Avimimus »

rlbell

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #31 on: 10 May 2014, 00:21:17 »
The main problem of the "All Big Gun" warship in the BTU is that bigger guns almost universally have a shorter range.  In wet naval history, the biggest guns also had the longest range.  The BT dreadnought warship has high thrust and long range, but low damage output and less damage thresholding potential, or it needs the high thrust to close in to the point where its multiple NAC/40's eviscerate its targets.
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Khymerion

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #32 on: 10 May 2014, 02:20:52 »
Space is the only place though that seems to turn that theory on it's head.   Sure, the autocannons tend to be short ranged equals big damage but then naval lasers, PPCs, and Gauss rifles all decided to take the ground combat route and go big damage equals the longest ranges.   So as long as you don't take the most literal of terms of 'big gun', you are still outranging everything else in existence, including anything a PWS can throw at you short of missiles.

The only good point that a NAC might have is it is smaller...  a pair of NAC-35s in a bay, 70 pts worth of fire being the same range bracket of the NAC-40, is only an 8K ton weapon bay instead of the similar extreme ranged twin Hvy N-Gauss's 14K tons for only 60 pts of hyper velocity football shaped death or the king of gun batteries, the quad Hvy N-PPC's 12K tons for a similar 60 pts of electric damage potential at extreme range.   Ammo weights are negligible on ships this big, what is a mere ton per shot at this mass?
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rlbell

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #33 on: 10 May 2014, 10:41:30 »
Space is the only place though that seems to turn that theory on it's head.   Sure, the autocannons tend to be short ranged equals big damage but then naval lasers, PPCs, and Gauss rifles all decided to take the ground combat route and go big damage equals the longest ranges.   So as long as you don't take the most literal of terms of 'big gun', you are still outranging everything else in existence, including anything a PWS can throw at you short of missiles.

The only good point that a NAC might have is it is smaller...  a pair of NAC-35s in a bay, 70 pts worth of fire being the same range bracket of the NAC-40, is only an 8K ton weapon bay instead of the similar extreme ranged twin Hvy N-Gauss's 14K tons for only 60 pts of hyper velocity football shaped death or the king of gun batteries, the quad Hvy N-PPC's 12K tons for a similar 60 pts of electric damage potential at extreme range.   Ammo weights are negligible on ships this big, what is a mere ton per shot at this mass?

When you lose 47% percent of the tonnage to the jump core, and another 36% to get the clear thrust advantage needed to dictate the range, needing to mount weapons that are half again as heavy as the enemy's really put the screws to the idea.

Why does a dreadnought need a thrust of 6/9?  A 6/9 battleship can thrust in a way that keeps a 3/5 at the edge of the broadside arc while accelerating away from the 3/5 battleship at the rate a 3/5 battleship can match only by pointing directly at the 6/9 battleship.  This absolute advantage is needed as the high thrust warship must outgun the lower thrust warship (which has more mass for weapons), so it must maximize its own firepower and minimize the return fire.  The modest increase of the potential opponents to a thrust of 4/6 prevents the BT Dreadnought form employing its longer range to full effect, as a thrust of 8/12 in a warship leaves only 5% of the mass for everything not jump core and main engines.  This is the other problem with transferring the Dreadnought type to Battletech.  HMS Dreadnought included changes in weapons arrangement fire control technology and propulsion systems.  Predreadnoughts had maximum speeds of 18 knots, while HMS Dreadnought cruised at 17 knots, yet her propulsion systems took up less of a percentage of her tonnage than the earlier systems.
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A. Lurker

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #34 on: 11 May 2014, 01:21:16 »
HMS Dreadnought included changes in weapons arrangement fire control technology and propulsion systems.  Predreadnoughts had maximum speeds of 18 knots, while HMS Dreadnought cruised at 17 knots, yet her propulsion systems took up less of a percentage of her tonnage than the earlier systems.

Yeah. A lot is usually made of HMS Dreadnought having been the first "all big gun" battleship (which was an idea already being considered and worked on elsewhere in the world at the time, the British simply were the first to actually get one finished) -- it's almost easy to forget that she was also the first turbine-powered one...

DarthRads

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #35 on: 22 May 2014, 20:11:36 »
Yeah. A lot is usually made of HMS Dreadnought having been the first "all big gun" battleship (which was an idea already being considered and worked on elsewhere in the world at the time, the British simply were the first to actually get one finished) -- it's almost easy to forget that she was also the first turbine-powered one...

But not the first turbine powered warship...and this is what I think is missing from space combat in battletech:
There is no real tech progression in drive systems after the Dreadnought. I find it difficult to accept that a ship designed 400 years later uses the same level of tech...
Even a simple breakdown like this would be an improvement:
Primitive - up to 2300 - KF=55%, Main Drive=7%
Standard - up to 2500 - All values as is
Improved - Up to 2700 - KF = 43%, Main Drive=6%
Advanced - 2700+ - KF = 40%, Main Drive = 5.5%

Non-TH Houses progress as follows
Primitive until 2350
Standard until 2600
Improved until the fall of the SL
(they don't get Advanced)

Wrangler

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #36 on: 23 May 2014, 06:53:38 »
I do hope we'll get stats for a miltarized version of the Aquillis. 
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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #37 on: 23 May 2014, 17:33:26 »
think I might take a pass at a rules re-write and rebuild of ships using the tech levels I proposed last post...

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #38 on: 24 May 2014, 06:07:39 »
have started a thread in the design forum for my idea about tech levels

Kovax

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #39 on: 28 May 2014, 14:16:36 »
Delving into the past (wet navies), there was a second reason for diverse gun calibers as targeting systems began to allow for hitting targets at ranges of several miles.  At long range, a shell would travel in a high arc and hit the deck (if it hit at all) at a relatively steep angle, and with sufficient energy to penetrate the deck in almost all cases.  As the range decreased, the alternatives were either to arc the shots even higher (more misses), or to lower the trajectory into more of a direct line so that the shells would begin to either skip off the deck at a shallow angle, or else fail to penetrate the thick belt armor of the hull at that range, with velocity sharply reduced by air friction.  As range decreased even further to a very shallow trajectory, the hits would begin to penetrate the hull at closer to full muzzle velocity, and hardly ever hit the deck.  That intermediate range was a problem, so slightly smaller guns with different trajectories were introduced to "fill the gap".  Still smaller armament was useful for defensive work or for knocking out vulnerable external systems and superstructure at closer ranges.

The "all big gun" ships had a weak spot, a range where they couldn't reliably damage to the opponent.  That's not nearly as relevant in space, as the shots suffer from significantly less "arc" due to gravity as you get further from a planet or other gravity well, and shell velocity doesn't drop off with range.

Incidentally, the idea of a maximum range in space is kind-of forced, since there is nothing to attenuate a laser beam over range, or to slow a projectile.  To-hit odds would be lower (particularly with projectiles), but shots should theoretically be able to hit immobile or predictable targets clear across a planetary system, given sufficient time to plot a trajectory and intercept angle (even energy weapons would need to lead a target significantly at those ranges).

rlbell

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #40 on: 07 June 2014, 17:33:39 »
Delving into the past (wet navies), there was a second reason for diverse gun calibers as targeting systems began to allow for hitting targets at ranges of several miles.  At long range, a shell would travel in a high arc and hit the deck (if it hit at all) at a relatively steep angle, and with sufficient energy to penetrate the deck in almost all cases.  As the range decreased, the alternatives were either to arc the shots even higher (more misses), or to lower the trajectory into more of a direct line so that the shells would begin to either skip off the deck at a shallow angle, or else fail to penetrate the thick belt armor of the hull at that range, with velocity sharply reduced by air friction.  As range decreased even further to a very shallow trajectory, the hits would begin to penetrate the hull at closer to full muzzle velocity, and hardly ever hit the deck.  That intermediate range was a problem, so slightly smaller guns with different trajectories were introduced to "fill the gap".  Still smaller armament was useful for defensive work or for knocking out vulnerable external systems and superstructure at closer ranges.

The "all big gun" ships had a weak spot, a range where they couldn't reliably damage to the opponent.  That's not nearly as relevant in space, as the shots suffer from significantly less "arc" due to gravity as you get further from a planet or other gravity well, and shell velocity doesn't drop off with range.

Incidentally, the idea of a maximum range in space is kind-of forced, since there is nothing to attenuate a laser beam over range, or to slow a projectile.  To-hit odds would be lower (particularly with projectiles), but shots should theoretically be able to hit immobile or predictable targets clear across a planetary system, given sufficient time to plot a trajectory and intercept angle (even energy weapons would need to lead a target significantly at those ranges).

Pre-dreadnought naval combat involved multiple calibers because the ships were not large enough to carry enough armor.  Heavy caliber guns (12" and up ) were for the initial stages of the batlle, as the range closed, the secondary batteries (8" to 10") joined in.  At the closest ranges, the quick firing guns (usually 6" guns with cased charges, if not fixed rounds) savaged everything above the waterline.  Gunnery was not considered good enough to fire at ranges that produced plunging fire, so the decks were , at best, lightly armored.

At Tsushima, the Japanese Navy fought the way they drilled and used their superior gunnery to land more hits at long range and the plunging fire wreaked havoc.  The Russians had guns with every bit of range as the Japanese, but, lacking the practice, scored fewer hits.

The lessons learned were that you needed to armor the deck, you needed to be able to keep the enemy from employing his quick firing guns, and you had to be able to score hits at range.  Carrying an armored deck required a bigger ship to float it, keeping the enemy at a distance required more speed, and scoring hits required a large number of guns. 

The immunity zone was the band of ranges that that started when the enemy guns could not punch through the belt armor and ended when the enemy shells would plunge through the decks.  This only became a flaw if your ship's immunity zone from the enemy guns was smaller than the enemy immunity zone from your guns (you had to enter the enemy's immunity zone before getting to yours).  The armor scheme of the HMS Hood had to be reworked when 15" shells would start penetrating the deck at a closer range then when the belt would start stopping hits
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Getz

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #41 on: 08 June 2014, 18:27:02 »
Sorry guys, I'm going to be a pain and pull you up here.  You're talking about plunging fire with regard to pre-dreadnought battleships and I'm afraid you're way off base.  At period battle ranges, plunging fire simply didn't happen -  shooting over ranges of a few thousand yard meant flat trajectories for all guns.  Angles of decent would be negligible, a few degrees at most, and shells simply could not hit decks or turret roofs at anything but the most oblique of angles.  No decks or turret roofs were penetrated at either Yellow Sea or Tushima on either side.  Not even once.  Hell, even at the 10,000 - 18,000 yard ranges that Dreadnoughts fought over in WW1, the angle of descent was usually only about ten or fifteen degrees.  Plunging fire was only just becoming a threat at the outer edge of the range envelope and even then no deck armour was penetrated at Jutland (a few turret roofs were, however).

Most dreadnoughts built before 1918 couldn't elevate their guns beyond 20 degrees.  Few Pre-dreadnoughts could elevate their guns much beyond 10 degrees.  Low elevation mounts like that simply could not lob shells on a trajectory that could actually generate plunging fire.  It is only after WWI as battle ranges progressed out to 20,00 yards and beyond and most navies adopted 30 degree or more elevation mounts for their guns that plunging fire actually became a major threat to battleships.

rlbell, you also talk about pre-dreadnoughts being under armoured.  Did you know that prior to the development of the first reliable fused APC shells by the Germans in 1911, battleships had great difficulty damaging one another at all?  The Harvey and Krupp steel armour used on these ships was all but  in-penetrable to equal calibre shells and 9" of Krupp steel was reckoned to enough to keep out 12" shellfire at anything but point blank range.  In the Russo-Japanese war both navies had the option of either using solid shot that could just about defeat the best armour on the enemy ships but did little damage after that or common shell that was explosive but had effectively no armour piercing ability.  At Yellow Sea, neither navy managed to do much meaningful damage to one another beyond wrecking the unarmoured (and unessential) upperworks of each other's ships with high explosives.  The great damage inflicted on the Russian ships at Tushima had much to do with their poor condition after sailing halfway around the world and the parlous state of their crews (there seems to have been little to no attempt at damage control).  In addition, the Borodino class ships that made up the core of the Russian fleet had a severe stability problem that caused them to capsize after taking on relatively little water.

Oh, by the way, Russian long ranged gunnery at Tushima was actually pretty good at first.  The first salvo aimed at Togo's flagship fell only 20m short and the Mikasa was hit fifteen times in the first five minutes of the battle.  The difference was that the Japanese guns had a higher rate of fire than the Russian guns and that the Japanese enjoyed a huge advantage in medium weight artillery.  Also, initially they fired only common shell, seeking to start fires aboard the Russian ships and it was these uncontrolled fires that rendered most of them unable to fight effectively.  The Japanese then switched to solid shot and used it to open up the sides of the damaged ships that fell out of line.  Ultimately, the Russian ships lost at Tushima were disabled by high explosive fire but sank after taking on water through shell holes made around at the water line (most of them were overladen, so their armoured belts were submerged and offered no protection).  None of the ships losses were attributable to deck hits as the battle was only fought at a range of about 7000 yards.  Way too short for plunging fire.

Overall, aside from experiments with naval mortars in the Napoleonic period, plunging didn't really feature in naval gunnery at all until the latter part of WW1 and the post war period.  Admittedly, thereafter it dominated gunnery theory and it wasn't long before deck protection was considered more important than belt protection, but in the Pre-dreadnought and early dreadnought era it just wasn't a factor.
« Last Edit: 09 June 2014, 08:55:34 by Getz »

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #42 on: 08 June 2014, 19:38:40 »
Not to distract too much. I'd like to comment that I had the pleasure of taking tour of the Mikasa while i was in the US Navy service.  The ship is amazing, i wasn't aware of the ship being in near the naval base in Yokosuka, Japan.   Its interesting tour, see what a pre-dreadnought Battleship was like.  Ship slightly lengthy wise shorter than Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigate, yet mounts those nasty big turreted guns.   

Anyways, Reflecting on pre-dreadnought designs as well as all Gun warships.  I do think despite newer and more powerful weapons such as anti-ship missiles have place.   The ammunition is cheaper than the missiles, they can be made to be more accurate now with today technology, which was nearly done with Iowa Class Battleships in their last years in service.   With addition of drones, they can nail things alot better in role of fire-support a shore, which modern vessels in today Navies really lack now. The Zumwalt Class DDG which has two 155mm advanced guns aka artillery guns fitted for sea, will help things but its fails in force multiplier in number of turreted cannons of yesteryear.

However, in their time such as pre-dreadnoughts reined supreme, they were effective as their gunners and spotters were.  Accruacy problems that their crews face properly kept them both sides alive long enough to prolong battle where long range was you could see your target instead of beyond the visual range of your spotters.

I'm not as technical as everyone else, i apologize if my insight is bit limited.
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Khymerion

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #43 on: 08 June 2014, 20:35:09 »
Not to distract too much. I'd like to comment that I had the pleasure of taking tour of the Mikasa while i was in the US Navy service.  The ship is amazing, i wasn't aware of the ship being in near the naval base in Yokosuka, Japan.   Its interesting tour, see what a pre-dreadnought Battleship was like.  Ship slightly lengthy wise shorter than Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigate, yet mounts those nasty big turreted guns.   

Anyways, Reflecting on pre-dreadnought designs as well as all Gun warships.  I do think despite newer and more powerful weapons such as anti-ship missiles have place.   The ammunition is cheaper than the missiles, they can be made to be more accurate now with today technology, which was nearly done with Iowa Class Battleships in their last years in service.   With addition of drones, they can nail things alot better in role of fire-support a shore, which modern vessels in today Navies really lack now. The Zumwalt Class DDG which has two 155mm advanced guns aka artillery guns fitted for sea, will help things but its fails in force multiplier in number of turreted cannons of yesteryear.

However, in their time such as pre-dreadnoughts reined supreme, they were effective as their gunners and spotters were.  Accruacy problems that their crews face properly kept them both sides alive long enough to prolong battle where long range was you could see your target instead of beyond the visual range of your spotters.

I'm not as technical as everyone else, i apologize if my insight is bit limited.

Nothing wrong with a different point of view at all.

There is a part of me that would love to see the 6.1 inch AGS get picked up for further ships and to see if it really can do it's proposed ranges.   While it isn't a battleship gun, it is at least light cruiser caliber weapon (by old standards).
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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #44 on: 10 June 2014, 15:19:46 »
Overall, aside from experiments with naval mortars in the Napoleonic period, plunging didn't really feature in naval gunnery at all until the latter part of WW1 and the post war period.  Admittedly, thereafter it dominated gunnery theory and it wasn't long before deck protection was considered more important than belt protection, but in the Pre-dreadnought and early dreadnought era it just wasn't a factor.

Whew. Thanks for saving me writing something similar.

I would even take that further. The key word being theoretical. 30,000 plus yards was a dream that was never realised with the technology of the time and even in WWII. There was some getting close, and lucky hits, but practical combat distances were a lot lower.

Nothing wrong with a different point of view at all.

There is a part of me that would love to see the 6.1 inch AGS get picked up for further ships and to see if it really can do it's proposed ranges.   While it isn't a battleship gun, it is at least light cruiser caliber weapon (by old standards).

Wait for your rail guns. A combat system that is only useful 10 miles from the beach isn't worth the effort. (the 80 mile range is useless when you have toys like Silkworm truck mounted with 150 mile range. Active defences require reaction time.) Rail guns might not be any better at ground support, but could revolutionise surface to surface. 

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #45 on: 10 June 2014, 15:36:34 »


Wait for your rail guns. A combat system that is only useful 10 miles from the beach isn't worth the effort. (the 80 mile range is useless when you have toys like Silkworm truck mounted with 150 mile range. Active defences require reaction time.) Rail guns might not be any better at ground support, but could revolutionise surface to surface.

I am waiting but I don't always put my faith in wonder weapons.    If they ever get the bugs worked out of the railgun and the ship borne laser anti-missile systems, it would really be revolutionary.    It would really require breakthroughs in both systems to really effect that change.
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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #46 on: 10 June 2014, 21:42:06 »
I think right now, if the initial test trials of the Rail Gun is successful on the Spearhead Class JHSV,  USNS Millinocket (JHSV-3), they US Navy needs to straighten out what platform can handle this beast.  Zumwalt Class DDG is arguably only one aside form the Ford Class CVN that can handle the power constrains need to operate it.   As of now, the service is having troubling time just getting new design produced, the DDG-51 Class's new Flight III version isn't going cut the muster and maybe delayed being built.  Costs and other problems.

Hopefully the Rail Gun used on the Millinocket will work out propel enough money build right kind of ship bring back the big guns.
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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #47 on: 11 June 2014, 15:33:07 »
bring back the big guns.

Aesthetics is not a good reason to do anything. It is effective or it isn't.

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #48 on: 11 June 2014, 15:48:28 »
Aesthetics is not a good reason to do anything. It is effective or it isn't.

Pretty much. I mean, with modern technology and materials we could probably build one kick-ass trireme that would leave any historical example of the design in its wake, and without actually needing any rowers anymore even... ;)

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #49 on: 12 June 2014, 10:15:53 »
...except that Greece DID build a Trireme only a few years ago, and it's officially a part of their navy.  Actually man-powered and everything.

The "big guns" of the old Battleships are still somewhat useful as artillery pieces, and much cheaper to fire than comparably powerful missiles, but not useful enough to justify their enormous initial cost.  The cost of maintaining the whole ship as a firing platform dwarfs the cost of ammunition, so it's still not cost-effective in that respect, either.

Note that the 11" guns on the pre-WWII German battlecruisers were capable of extreme range plunging fire, although the odds of landing those hits at the limits of gun range were miniscule.

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #50 on: 12 June 2014, 12:00:30 »
...except that Greece DID build a Trireme only a few years ago, and it's officially a part of their navy.  Actually man-powered and everything.

Well, HMS Victory is technically also still in commission and even the nominal flagship of the First Sea Lord. Doesn't mean she's going to set sail and menace an actual enemy with her 32-pounders (if those are even still on board) anytime soon, either. ;)

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Re: Benefits and drawbacks of the "all big gun" warship.
« Reply #51 on: 12 June 2014, 17:11:52 »
Well, HMS Victory is technically also still in commission and even the nominal flagship of the First Sea Lord. Doesn't mean she's going to set sail and menace an actual enemy with her 32-pounders (if those are even still on board) anytime soon, either. ;)

Or if her guns were not mostly for show or she could actually put to sea again.

Still, a modern built ship using a modern power plant (thus can find parts made by people who are still working and live) with current materials (not using super armor alchemy that has been pretty much lost to time, even if we wanted to make new slabs of it) that used current weapon tech that looked nominally like an old gun cruiser (IE, not just a pair of guns in single mount turrets at best) would be interesting.   Since the advent of the missile and no real counter, this has worked...   but things do change.

Actually, wouldn't mind a return to the idea of the cruiser submarine if they can perfect the rail gun and make a water proof mount for it... since the old submariner adage is pretty accurate, there are only two types of ships... submarines and targets.   If I can't have a cruiser or battleship, a modern take on the Narwhal would be really hilarious to see.
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