Infantry and Special Pilot Abilities

[nckestrel]

Ah, you're right. That would be more useful :).

[Jackmc]

So if I create a special ability that says I can do cartwheels in a Stalker II, it would be unreasonable of me to require that you be a good pilot before I give you that ability?

Yes.  That's something I can see a really bad pilot doing much easier than a really good one!  ;D ;D ;D

-Jackmc

[SCC]

So if I create a special ability that says I can do cartwheels in a Stalker II, it would be unreasonable of me to require that you be a good pilot before I give you that ability?

Paul's viewpoint is that SPAs are genetic or something, and that there's no skill involved in learning them, so yes, it could be taken as unreasonable for you to require even the ability to pilot a 'Mech

[Maelwys]

So if I create a special ability that says I can do cartwheels in a Stalker II, it would be unreasonable of me to require that you be a good pilot before I give you that ability?

Of course, Devil's Advocate here, based on some of the posts, you don't need to have ever piloted a Stalker II to gain the ability, and you're just as likely to gain "Stalker II Cartwheel SPA" while having never piloted anything aside from a Black Knight :)

[nckestrel]

Paul's viewpoint is that SPAs are genetic or something, and that there's no skill involved in learning them, so yes, it could be taken as unreasonable for you to require even the ability to pilot a 'Mech

If somebody has bad vision, they're not going to be a great sniper no matter the training.
But that doesn't mean with great eyesight you are automatically a great sniper, you still need the training.
So yes, I think it's perfectly reasonable to require a degree of skill before granting abilities based in genetics.

[Kitsune413]

I agree with Nckestrel.

If you were born with a genetic predisposition to be alarmingly good at Chess but you never played Chess then your chances of realizing your inner chess genius is minimal.

Keep in mind that real skills are usually a matter of deliberate practice.

But also that your ability to deliberately practice something depends on your personality. Most SPA's require some trait to be viable.

But lets look at the 'Tactical Genius' SPA. It requires a set of skills, attributes and a trait. Then look at we know at people from history.

There are plenty of people that would have the trait 'combat sense' and have a grasp on what was going on. Have a high leadership skill, be tactically knowledgeable and incredibly intelligent. In fact I'd say you would almost have to have all of these things to become a general.

But that does not make you Napoleon or Frederick the Great. For that you have to have Inspiration.

[gooseman]

Not being a AToW player, but knowing a little bit about RPG's (  ;) ), SPA's seem to be a way to bring a '4 color' nuance to BT role-playing. Meaning, they are there to give PC's a bit of exceptionalism in contrast to the rank and file 'filler' of a campaign.

[Paul]

If your intent (for games which conform 100% to Official BattleTech) is for SPAs to be spontaneous and innate, rather than the product of training and experience, the rules should not make a certain skill level prerequisite.

Your logic does not follow.

Well I don' think that you can simply replace a squad's leader with some guy with the Foot Cavalry and they get the benefit's

I'm not sure what that has to do with your 'reading between the lines remark' earlier.

Not quite what I said

You're not making sense. I was replying to something you did, in fact, say. It seems we're experiencing some miscommunication. Perhaps it's functional to simply have you explain what your position is, and we can then see if there's any agreement. Might get us out of the process of talking straight past each other.

Paul's viewpoint is that SPAs are genetic or something, and that there's no skill involved in learning them, so yes, it could be taken as unreasonable for you to require even the ability to pilot a 'Mech

A lot of things 'could be taken' as reasonable or unreasonable. That's irrelevant. What matters is understanding the original intent, for two reasons. First, if you seek to benefit from the common ground of published rules, it'd necessary to understand them. Second, if you are happy to deviate from published rules for your purposes (as you're welcome to), it's useful to fully grasp the original, as to also understand what you're deviating from.

An SPA is a remarkable capability or ability. The kind of exceptional performance that separates the merely competent from the truly outstanding individuals. That includes a requirement of Attributes, Skills sometimes even Traits merely to gain access to the potential. Crude example, you'll never know if you're capable of tremendous feats of car-control or sword-control if you've never wielded either device, and never progressed to a decent level of achievement. That level of achievement opens the door to a deeper understanding of the kind of capability you always kind of had.
SPAs should be viewed as inate talent manifesting itself, much in the way that Traits do. You either have them, or you don't. There's really no reliable way to train for them, and there's no rules to "spawn" them spontaneously like some sort of item drop in a MMORPG just by grinding a few million people through the training program. Heck, in most cases, they're not even something you can objectively measure.

You seem to have the notion that policy set by the military leadership can provoke a higher incidence of SPAs, and that's simply not compatible with their concept.

Do you follow my meaning?

Paul

[SCC]

I'm not sure what that has to do with your 'reading between the lines remark' earlier.

Well Infantry SPAs are effective as long as the squad leader has the SPA in question, that sort of implies that it's training of the troops under him that has the effect.

You're not making sense. I was replying to something you did, in fact, say. It seems we're experiencing some miscommunication. Perhaps it's functional to simply have you explain what your position is, and we can then see if there's any agreement. Might get us out of the process of talking straight past each other.

I was saying that a training regime that only covers certain weapons might lead to people emerging from having a SPA related to that weapon. Or a training course for light/scout 'Mech pilots (Particularly in 3025) might involve a LOT more training in jumping, leading people of took that course to develop at some point jumping related SPAs

[Paul]

Well Infantry SPAs are effective as long as the squad leader has the SPA in question, that sort of implies that it's training of the troops under him that has the effect.

Perhaps, but that's simply not the case.

I was saying that a training regime that only covers certain weapons might lead to people emerging from having a SPA related to that weapon. Or a training course for light/scout 'Mech pilots (Particularly in 3025) might involve a LOT more training in jumping, leading people of took that course to develop at some point jumping related SPAs

There's really no reliable way to train for them, and there's no rules to "spawn" them spontaneously like some sort of item drop in a MMORPG just by grinding a few million people through the training program.

So, no. And again, SPA is a meta concept, people in-universe aren't filling out personnel files listing what SPAs a given soldier has. They can't measure it.

Paul

[SCC]

Paul, correct me if I'm wrong, put SPAs aren't supposed to be supernatural, right?

[Paul]

Paul, correct me if I'm wrong, put SPAs aren't supposed to be supernatural, right?

Correct, exceptional, but not magical.

[Kitsune413]

ai has surprisingly few spa's considering his skill

[SCC]

Correct, exceptional, but not magical.

Then for the Infantry SPAs I'm going to assume that there is some sort of training that occurs, otherwise how does the rest of the squad gain the benefits?

[worktroll]

Ever seen the same football team perform differently under different captains? That's not due to the training of the players. It's due to the captains' differing ability to utilise the talents of the players effectively.

Likewise work managers, military small units, bands and orchestras, etc etc. There are bad leaders, ordinary leaders, and a very small number of exceptional leaders. For game purposes, units are presumed to be led by ordinary leaders.

Case in point - take a bunch of friends who play BT together. There'll be one person who tends to fall into the 'lead' role. Replace him with someone the players don't know. Will their game be as cohesive as before? No. The training/skills/aptitude of the other players has not changed. What changed?

[SCC]

Ever seen the same football team perform differently under different captains? That's not due to the training of the players. It's due to the captains' differing ability to utilise the talents of the players effectively.

Likewise work managers, military small units, bands and orchestras, etc etc. There are bad leaders, ordinary leaders, and a very small number of exceptional leaders. For game purposes, units are presumed to be led by ordinary leaders.

Case in point - take a bunch of friends who play BT together. There'll be one person who tends to fall into the 'lead' role. Replace him with someone the players don't know. Will their game be as cohesive as before? No. The training/skills/aptitude of the other players has not changed. What changed?

That might work for some of them, but it's not going to explain why their running faster or getting weapons set up faster, or how they get better at using cover

[Paul]

OK, so the Infantry ones *are* magic, just to create some infantry functionality. I didn't work on those.

Bottom line: can't train them on a local or national level. Sorry.

[Weirdo]

To clarify: They're not magic as in *magic*, they're magic as in "We(and most players) would go mad if we tried to make the rules that detailed, so we won't. 90% of the player base won't care, anyway." In no way is he implying that all squad leaders are 16th-level Bard-Sorcerors.

[Paul]

To clarify: They're not magic as in *magic*, they're magic as in "We(and most players) would go mad if we tried to make the rules that detailed, so we won't. 90% of the player base won't care, anyway." In no way is he implying that all squad leaders are 16th-level Bard-Sorcerors.

Yeah, what he said. There's still 0 actual magic in BT, but some things work the way because we have our hands a little and say "because!". Infantry SPAs are apparently an example of that.

[Kitsune413]

That might work for some of them, but it's not going to explain why their running faster or getting weapons set up faster, or how they get better at using cover

You cannot obtain an infantry SPA without a high leadership skill. Some also require training.

All of these SPA's mention training the squad in a skill. So what happens is the squad leader conditions his squad to perform the way that he needs them to.

But the Squad doesn't understand the science or the inspiration behind the Squad Leaders abilities. There is a good chance that being lead by someone like this might bring out your own natural talent.

But for the most part if they lose this squad leader then they have lost this ability. At this point if they have the Foot Cavalry SPA they lose the inspiration and the reason to drill for fitness and as much speed and efficiency. They also may not have the willpower, leadership or talent to train replacement personnel to function the same way as their team has before.

So effectively the leader is the reason why it worked. You see this in sports as was mentioned earlier but in militaries too.

[Nebfer]

I would say that the SPAs while many would require extensive training for them to work, are not inherently the result of said training but the characters own inherent knack at that specific ability. The top 100 cadets in a Training school May be the best in the school, but even then you may have a hand full of cadets that seem to be above the rest in specific capability's.

With infantry it's the leaders own knack at doing things that allows his men to perform feats that other units could not match.

Though I do think one could get results that can to an effect duplicate some ability's through above average training (particularly if you have leaders who have said ability's), this can be seen some what with Tac ops "commanders" rules which some of which are mirrored by PSAs (Like Tac ops Sharp Shooters and the Sniper PSA).

For example Battlecorps at one point provided looks into specific units, one such unit was the Jalstar Defence force (or specifically it's factory defense unit), It's two Wings is stated to consist of 75% elite rated pilots and all elite pilot where to have either Marksmen, Sniper or Weapons specialist ability's. The Knights Defensor has a battalion that has at lest 1-3 units having the Blood stalker trait...

If their supposed to be rather rare that's a fair number of these unique individuals in these units, perhaps their is a way to train them (that it would seem to require some unique circumstances) or many pilots start displaying these ability's on their own due to some unknown talent when they start becoming veteran or elite...

[Daemion]

Not being a AToW player, but knowing a little bit about RPG's (  ;) ), SPA's seem to be a way to bring a '4 color' nuance to BT role-playing. Meaning, they are there to give PC's a bit of exceptionalism in contrast to the rank and file 'filler' of a campaign.

See, I can accept this. But, the way the discussion's been going, it almost sounds as if even this should not be the case according to the guys writing the rules and making up the universe they count in.

[pheonixstorm]

No matter what anyone really thinks of the rules there really is only one rule.

House rules. If you think training helps unlocks an SPA then thats what happens.

So yes, there are valid points made by a fair amount of people in this thread but only two that count. What Paul says is the "Official Rules" and what other consider as house rules. For me, advanced training would be the key to unlock some of the SPAs (certain weapon specializations, maybe one or two others) but most of them would still be a by product of a Pilots knack for something (sniper, jumping jack, doing a hand stand in a locust w/o falling).

So, Official or house rules, your choice. Just don't argue with the most holy BT creators  :P