Omen vs Night Wolf vs Onager

[Neufeld]

3085 gave us three new Clan non-optimal jumping short-range brawler 85-90 ton designs, Omen, Night Wolf and Onager.

What's your impression of these? Best? Worst? Would you use them?

Omen: Probably the best generalist, but I would prefer a focus on more long-range firepower at its speed. Best use would probably be to bodyguard long-range designs.

Night Wolf: Get it close and the HE-ammo + HLL combo will dish out damage fast. The bad thing is that its long-range firepower is the weakest of the three. Best use, vehicle hunting.

Onager: Ineffective with 20 tons of jump-jets, but once it gets close it causes crits from hell. Best use, close in an crit-seek after other designs have punched some holes.

Overall I find all the designs usable, but nothing I want to take up against GR & cERPPC monsters.

[Moonsword]

The only one I have much of an impression of is the Night Wolf.  It's more of a vehicle hunter and I think Herb's reported response that it was a Clan Albatross has a lot of truth to it - like the Albatross, this is a bully 'Mech, not something for going toe to toe with other assaults, and may play better in a Star than on its own.

[Kit deSummersville]

I believe the "Albatross" comparison was Welshman, not Herb.

[IndyRI]

Well the Onager is undoubtably the weakest of the three. if you ever wante an example of how not to use iJJs, this is it. I'm a big fan of HAGs, but they are essentially a mid-to-short range LRM with extra efficiency and no exploding ammo. The Pariah used the HAG right. Give a mobile platform a hole puncher, and a BFG HAG to chew away armor and seek crits. The Onager did none of that. The Onager isn't useless, and at least looks pretty cool, but it's certainly not something I'd want to bring into play for anything other than as an oversized crit-seeker.

The Omen i haven't gotten a chance to use yet, but it seems to have the most effective weapons array of the group for general work. Definitely a knife fighter by preference, it'd be fun to see what it can do in hilly terrain or a town.

The Night Wolf, on the other hand, is a fun eclectic mix and match of a mech. The Albatross comparison is apt, but I'd argue it definitely has more of a role in your average army than that fun-but-maligned mech does. The Plasma Cannon is one of those weapons people tend to forget how effective it can be. The same people who have been carrying around volatile inferno ammo for years will immediately shun the PC as the red-headed step brother of the Plasma Rifle. What they neglect to take into account is how much a potential 12 extra heat can throw off even the most efficient, heat neutral designs. It's not the perfect qeapon, but between it's absolutely devastating effect on infantry and battle armor, to its ability to completely throw off the heat curve of heat tracking units, it definitely has its uses. The rest of the weapons loadout is also geared for close range damage. HLLs has some range but with the natural negation of the Targeting Comp you should really use it up close, and the HE ammo for ATMs gives you absolutely no reason to try and stay at range. And while it may not be quick enough to necessarily dictate range, a 4/6/4 assault mech is definitely fast enough to at least get into position without too terrible a headache assuming you are using Floating Battlefield. All in all, as was discussed in the MotW thread, the Night Wolf is a surprisingly effective design all things considered. Not my first choice for a clan assault, but it definitely can contribute to any force.

[Moonsword]

I believe the "Albatross" comparison was Welshman, not Herb.

When I gave the stats to Herb, I received what I think was the best compliment I've ever gotten for a design. He said "Great cat, it's a Clan Albatross." I was so proud.

[Kit deSummersville]

Aha! Welshman was merely a conduit for Herb's transmission.

[jimdigris]

The Plasma Cannon is one of those weapons people tend to forget how effective it can be. The same people who have been carrying around volatile inferno ammo for years will immediately shun the PC as the red-headed step brother of the Plasma Rifle. What they neglect to take into account is how much a potential 12 extra heat can throw off even the most efficient, heat neutral designs. It's not the perfect qeapon, but between it's absolutely devastating effect on infantry and battle armor, to its ability to completely throw off the heat curve of heat tracking units, it definitely has its uses. The rest of the weapons loadout is also geared for close range damage. HLLs has some range but with the natural negation of the Targeting Comp you should really use it up close, and the HE ammo for ATMs gives you absolutely no reason to try and stay at range. And while it may not be quick enough to necessarily dictate range, a 4/6/4 assault mech is definitely fast enough to at least get into position without too terrible a headache assuming you are using Floating Battlefield. All in all, as was discussed in the MotW thread, the Night Wolf is a surprisingly effective design all things considered. Not my first choice for a clan assault, but it definitely can contribute to any force.

I agree with your analysis of the plasma cannon.  It's best used against assault mechs which tend to run hot.  With the PC, you can force an opponent to slow down and not use weapons automatically.

[IndyRI]

Well the PC is essentially an ER Inferno SRM 6 with a specialization against infantry and BA instead of Vehicles. It's twice as heavy as a clan SRM6, with twice the range, and not quite twice the heat cost. And as a handy by-product, the ammo doesn't explode, making it an even better alternative to Infernos. The real problem is when players start comparing it to the Plasma Rifle, which is really a PPC competitor with a heat fetish rather than a pure heat-weapon like the PC, infernos, or flamers under advanced rules

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I agree with your analysis of the plasma cannon.  It's best used against assault mechs which tend to run hot.  With the PC, you can force an opponent to slow down and not use weapons automatically.

It's especially great against mechs that use a lot of little guns, like the Nova or Sphinx because it forces them to cut a lot of their weapon fire to compensate.

Of course, it's absolutely hilarious against someone who's already overheated their Masikari Prime and announced that they're going to Alpha Strike.

[Kit deSummersville]

It's especially great against mechs that use a lot of little guns, like the Nova or Sphinx because it forces them to cut a lot of their weapon fire to compensate.

Of course, it's absolutely hilarious against someone who's already overheated their Masikari Prime and announced that they're going to Alpha Strike.

I find it even more amusing when they only fire 2 ER PPCs and they don't get shot with a PC. Precautionary heatsinks can be heavy.

[JPArbiter]

Of course, it's absolutely hilarious against someone who's already overheated their Masikari Prime and announced that they're going to Alpha Strike.

which is why the Epona E is so delicious

of the three mechs the Onager is the only one I am not impressed with  it gives up way to much for the IJJ mobility and HAG that its secondary weapons are next to nothing.

the Night wolf is so far my favorite, but the hellstar and Bruin are where it really is for me

[IndyRI]

It's especially great against mechs that use a lot of little guns, like the Nova or Sphinx because it forces them to cut a lot of their weapon fire to compensate.

Of course, it's absolutely hilarious against someone who's already overheated their Masikari Prime and announced that they're going to Alpha Strike.

Well the best part about the PC is just that. It forces your opponent to limit their arsenal on a near every turn basis by up to 12 heat's worth. While you may eat 7 heat for using it, the fun of forcing your opponent to eat anywhere from 2-12 heat will essentially cost them the equivalent of a PPC per turn in firepower. That kind of difference adds up quick.

And Warhawk's overheating is always hilarious.

[Neufeld]

The most fun you can have with a Plasma Cannon is when you trigger an ammo cook-off.

BTW, no comments on the Omen? It kind of also remind me of the Albatross a bit.

[Moonsword]

That "fun" can be very limited in their opinion.  I dislike plasma cannon/Inferno tactics against 'Mechs in pure fun games - it's not a tactic I find fun to have used against me and accordingly it's not one I want to inflict on someone else in a pick up game for the sake of having fun.  Plasma rifles, which are much milder, don't bother me as much.

Now, in a more competitive environment or a campaign scenario, that's another issue.  Ditto if someone is hauling out entirely too many TSM tricks or I feel they need a nudge on not constantly assuming perfect heat scenarios, but that's not quite the same thing.  Plasma rifles will get that done anyway, though.

[IndyRI]

The most fun you can have with a Plasma Cannon is when you trigger an ammo cook-off.

BTW, no comments on the Omen? It kind of also remind me of the Albatross a bit.

Well the Omen is actually the one that most resembles the Albatross in terms of actual weapons loadouts. But the differences in Clantech vs. IS tech allow it to actually be fairly effective in exactly the same role that the Albatross (unfortunately) is typically considered a failure at.

And Moonsword, I'm of the compelte opposite mind. I find heat wepaons a fun weigh to make everyone think out of the box, myself included. Do I give up raw damage for heat generation? And if so, how can I make that work against an opponent who might have better heat management than I'd planned for. Also, heat weapons tend to be one of the primary reasons that in the modern era, Mechs are still Kings of the Battlefield. And while I love the usability of combined arms, Mechs should still be able to hold the top spot without question. Heat weaponry solidifes that role.

[DarkISI]

The downside of the PC is, that your opponent know you have it. That's what I like about infernos, he doesn't, most of the time. Of course, if he asks, I tell him. But usually people don't ask.
It's so much fun to see their faces fall down, when they have announced their weapon attacks, calculated their expected heat and the you say something like "I'm firing two SRM 4s - Inferno".
You can't have that kind of fun with a PC ;)

[IndyRI]

The downside of the PC is, that your opponent know you have it. That's what I like about infernos, he doesn't, most of the time. Of course, if he asks, I tell him. But usually people don't ask.
It's so much fun to see their faces fall down, when they have announced their weapon attacks, calculated their expected heat and the you say something like "I'm firing two SRM 4s - Inferno".
You can't have that kind of fun with a PC ;)

True, but if you're playing with hidden record sheets and an Omni, or mech with morre than one varient, they won't know until you fire anyways.

[Weirdo]

Another use for the PC that folks should remember is as an anti-air gun. It has the range to be decent at it, but the heat is where it becomes scary. If they don't run hot already, most fighters have very tight heat curves. Moreover, their heat scale is much less forgiving than a mech's, with even 5 heat posing serious effects. And since most fighters are built to heat up on a ground strike and then have at least a full turn to cool down before the next pass, catching an attacking fighter with a solid PC shot can get very lethal very fast.

[Moonsword]

I don't mind them in the right circumstances but, frankly, it's not really something I want in a purely for fun 'Mech-on-'Mech game.  It's not a surprise I want sprung on me in that context, basically.

[DarkISI]

Another use for the PC that folks should remember is as an anti-air gun. It has the range to be decent at it, but the heat is where it becomes scary. If they don't run hot already, most fighters have very tight heat curves. Moreover, their heat scale is much less forgiving than a mech's, with even 5 heat posing serious effects. And since most fighters are built to heat up on a ground strike and then have at least a full turn to cool down before the next pass, catching an attacking fighter with a solid PC shot can get very lethal very fast.

Uh, I have never used them for that, didn't think of it. Will try it next time someone brings ASFs to the table :D

[Moonsword]

Oh yeah.  That's something plasma rifles are also really annoying for against ASFs - they hit pretty hard and that heat makes things even more complicated.

[wantec]

Don't forget, the PC does 3d6 damage against vehicles, infantry or BA.

[IndyRI]

Well to each his own, Moonsword. I personally find LRMs and Energy Boats to be, in general, boring as all get out. It's all about how you like to play the game.

And Weirdo, good call on the anti-ASF usage. i don't often play with Aerospace reinforcement in my groups, so it's never really been an issue. I can see the value, though

Don't forget, the PC does 3d6 damage against vehicles, infantry or BA.

Not quite. Just to infantry and BA. No extra damage for the PC versus vehicles.

[Moonsword]

That's not all I play with.  Honestly, there's something about the tactic that just seems unsporting to me in a friendly game, and it bothers me.

[wantec]

Not quite. Just to infantry and BA. No extra damage for the PC versus vehicles.

Uh, double check the TW entry for the Plasma Cannon, and remember vehicles don't track heat.

Plasma Cannon
A plasma cannon delivers no damage, aside from 2D6 points of heat, to ’Mechs, aerospace fi ghters and small craft during the Heat Phase (see Outside Heat Sources, p. 159). For any other unit type, apply 3D6 damage. After determining Damage Value by rolling 3D6, divide the damage from a plasma cannon into 5-point Damage Value groupings (assign any remaining damage to a fi nal grouping), with each grouping assigned to a diff erent location using the appropriate Damage Location Table (provided the target has separate locations).

[IndyRI]

Uh, double check the TW entry for the Plasma Cannon, and remember vehicles don't track heat.

Well color me green and call me a pickle (southern euphemisms FTW)! You, sir, are correct. Teaches me for going off of memory. Thanks for the correction. I was always under the impression that unlike infernos they only did damage against PBI and BA. Never made sense to me, but somehow I got it in my head enough to make me never look it up.

That's not all I play with.  Honestly, there's something about the tactic that just seems unsporting to me in a friendly game, and it bothers me.

Oh I didn't mean to imply that you did. I've read enough of your posts over on the old forums to know you're not munchtastic. I was simply pointing out a valid, legal tactic that I personally find uninteresting or distasteful. Similar to your feelings on PCs. Different strokes for different folks, is all.

[Moonsword]

Fair enough.