AToW Grappling Question

[Inspector2311]

Quoting AToW page 176:

Grapple attacks are slightly more difficult to execute
than standard melee attacks (receiving a –1 roll modifier), but
are otherwise resolved in the same manner as standard melee
combat.

"The same manner as standard melee combat" suggests that the form on page 175 would be followed, which would tend to mean that if both characters succeed, then the one with the higher MoS becomes the grappler.  Because that is how standard melee combat works.  However, the next few sentences say:

If the attacker attempting a grapple succeeds in his attack
roll and the defender’s roll fails, the attacker inflicts no damage
to the defender, but does restrain him. If the attacker’s roll fails
and the defender’s roll succeeds, the defender reverses the
grapple, effectively restraining the attacker instead. On any other
result, the combatants are engaged in melee, but neither one is
damaged or grappled.

(bold added, italics in original)

And the "any other result" wording suggests that it does not work like other melee combat because even if the attacker succeeds by a higher MoS, the grapple still fails; only a successful attacker and failing defender results in a successful grapple for the attacker.  But that doesn't sound right?  Is that actually how it's intended to work, is it a mistake in the phrasing, or am I just missing something?

[HABeas2]

That's how it's intended actually. The rule was written with no presumption that the opponent seeks to make a grapple. If the opponent wants to grapple, they have to declare that intent, otherwise they are simply resisting such an attempt.

- Herb

[Inspector2311]

Sorry, I don't think we're talking about the same thing.  The attacker is attempting to grapple and the defender is resisting.  They both must roll melee combat rolls.  Both succeed and the attacker has a higher MoS.  Is the defender grappled, or no?

[HABeas2]

Oh! Yes, sorry. I also see that I misread the whole thing, and got my own rules wrong (Grapple Rules: the bane of many an RPG developer)...as it seems a reversal CAN happen if the defender succeeds and the attacker fails.

That being said, in the event of a success by both, what it basically means is that they are still struggling to gain the upper hand. The successful attacker needs the defender to fail to achieve a grapple, while the successful defender needs the attacker to fail to turn the tables and grapple the attacker. Otherwise, they are locked in combat, inflicting no damage to each other (as their efforts are being spent trying to either attain a hold, or prevent one). The MoS doesn't matter in the event both fail or both succeed. (Though, if I were the GM and saw them both fail, I might try and make it look a bit silly, like two wrestlers who charge each other and somehow fail to connect because one reached too high and the other stumbled and ended up dropping to a knee.)

Think of it like one of those old-school, Original-Series Star Trek melees between Kirk and the enemy of the week. When he and his opponent stand there, at arms' length, unable to grab each other's bodies or necks because they're basically just locking arms....that's a result where neither side failed the grapple. When suddenly one of them breaks the arm-lock phase and suddenly they manage to get their opponent around the throat and chest long enough to deliver some dramatic one-liner, that's when one has succeeded and the other has failed. And when both fail, that's when a shirt gets gratuitously torn or something.

Hope that helps. And I apologize for my earlier wrong answer.

- Herb

[Inspector2311]

Oh, that's okay.  Thanks for answering!

So if both succeed, and neither is grappling the other, then what happens on the defender's turn - is he free to simply walk away?  Or are they considered "grappling?"

[HABeas2]

Well, they are still in melee, but as AToW doesn't have Opportunity Attack rules (a-la D&D/Pathfinder) or require any special action to disengage from melee outside of the grapple rules, the defender can certainly try and break off; forcing the attacker to try to catch them again.

- Herb

*sigh* If I had the chance to do that game system over again....

[Inspector2311]

I see.  Yes, that was my follow-up question, as well.  Er, just to be sure: when you say "try" and break off, did you mean to imply it would take any particular effort or roll other than a simple move action?

[HABeas2]

As written, it looks like you'd be go to move without any rolls required.

- Herb

[Inspector2311]

Thanks!  Luckily, I am the GM so I will house rule it make grapples work the same as standard melee attacks: If the attacker succeeds by a higher MoS, then the grapple is successful and if the defender gets the higher MoS, then he can choose to either become the grappler or make the grapple fail.

I appreciate you helping to clarify this!