Author Topic: A thought about MG clusters  (Read 1860 times)

Weirdo

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A thought about MG clusters
« on: 02 June 2022, 16:37:34 »
So I've been on a bit of a Dark Age kick lately, which includes looking at designs that originated in MWDA and only later proliferated to Total War play. While far from universal, one design concept that crops up several times is the mounting of clusters of light anti-personnel weapons in numbers that would seem ludicrous in any other era, particularly on vehicles. This doesn't seem wise on the surface, as vees that get into MG range of a decent infantry platoon are pretty much asking to get critted into immobility, and the number of platoons that 4-8 machine guns and/or flamers would call for pretty much guarantees you're not moving away from that engagement under your own power even if your armor is otherwise intact.

Then an idea finally occurred to me: What if these weapon clusters aren't intended to get several hits on target, but instead to get one or two hits on target when the shot is extremely difficult? A rifle platoon is a serious threat to any tank, but that platoon only gets a single to-hit roll, and if they miss that roll, say because of long range modifiers, that's it for the platoon for the entire turn. But a vehicle can have multiple rolls, and if you have four guns, your odds of connecting with at least one gun are pretty decent. So while a Vedette that wants to engage infantry with its machine gun needs to do so from 1-2 hexes and will probably get hit in return, a Demon or Marksman can do so at 3 hexes and could very well get off scott free. And then there's the Joust, that will have eight rolls at the six hexes, allowing it to play the range game against all but the farthest-reaching platoons.
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pheonixstorm

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #1 on: 02 June 2022, 17:15:29 »
More is defiantly better if the infantry unit is dug in or in a fortified position.

Best way to counter those excessive MGs is a fortified position in light or heavy woods. Best to use lots of flamers. Burn it all down.

Daryk

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #2 on: 02 June 2022, 17:51:10 »
Weirdo's logic is sound, but the Sniper Rifles published in Shrapnel really change that calculus...  ^-^

Weirdo

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #3 on: 02 June 2022, 18:28:32 »
While those are a concern, I feel fairly comfortable in assuming that the bulk of the troops on a battlefield are not going to be snipers. :)
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Daryk

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #4 on: 02 June 2022, 18:37:34 »
The bulk aren't what you need to worry about... it's those two troopers per squad that matter...  ^-^

Weirdo

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #5 on: 02 June 2022, 19:05:50 »
Still feel safe in assuming that the bulk of the platoons on a Battletech table will not contain any snipers.
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Daryk

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #6 on: 02 June 2022, 19:08:07 »
Probably true, sadly... I can only hope Shrapnel sees more sales!  :)

pheonixstorm

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #7 on: 02 June 2022, 22:00:29 »
I've already built a platoon with the Hunkle SMG and Sun Killer Sniper rifles as the two squad weapons. The 21 hex range sniper isn't available in the campaign year. Can't wait for the Mauser 960 to be available. Or I would if the damage values hadn't changed... Anything over .6 isn't worth it except for its range value. Half of those above .6 already have burst fire anyway...

Colt Ward

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #8 on: 06 June 2022, 10:07:21 »
Probably true, sadly... I can only hope Shrapnel sees more sales!  :)

It is not about sales, it is about doctrine . . . snipers are not integrated into line platoons usually.  Someone (or several) in a platoon are typically the designated marksmen, but that is usually due to their having the highest rifle qual out of the group.  True snipers are typically a battalion if not regimental level asset- sometimes included in the recon group, other times in their own organization.

Honestly, Recoilless Rifles in a line platoon would be more off a concern.
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pokefan548

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #9 on: 06 June 2022, 10:12:24 »
Heavy Automatic Grenade Launcher supremacy.
Not to get us back on topic or anything, but I really just think that those sorts of machine gun setups are mostly so common because infantry was such a big focus for the new crunch during Dark Age.
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Fallen_Raven

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #10 on: 06 June 2022, 10:27:11 »
I think there's also the question of whether infantry deploys in squads more often than we see on the tabletop. Those large numbers of machineguns make more sense in a scenario where infantry are spread out and getting dispersion bonuses. And if you are looking at multiple squads, having more guns to negate the penalty for secondary targets helps even more.
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Colt Ward

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #11 on: 06 June 2022, 11:00:20 »
With the Joust (one of my favorite tanks) Weirdo used as an example, the other question is- what else could you really use as effectively to spread that amount of fire around to different infantry if you wanted at that range?  For two tons you can engage six targets at decent range for anti-infantry- say a platoon is split into squads?  Two MGs per squad, and if they are not killed outright very likely will end up combat ineffective.
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Weirdo

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #12 on: 06 June 2022, 12:00:27 »
With the Joust (one of my favorite tanks)
Quote
...the other question is- what else could you really use as effectively to spread that amount of fire around to different infantry if you wanted at that range?  For two tons you can engage six targets at decent range for anti-infantry- say a platoon is split into squads?  Two MGs per squad, and if they are not killed outright very likely will end up combat ineffective.

True, though that's not what I'm talking about, as to engage that many targets effectively means having better to-hit numbers than long range will give you; you'd have to get closer and thus more at risk of return fire.

To me, the whole point is to point enough guns at a single target that even with long range and other modifiers you're reasonably certain of getting at least a single hit, while the odds of a successful return strike are very low. For the four-gun tanks like the Marksman, that means all on one target, while for vees with even more(Joust, Ranger), I wouldn't advise splitting your guns between more than two targets.
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Hellraiser

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #13 on: 07 June 2022, 12:10:41 »
I wouldn't advise splitting your guns between more than two targets. 
Don't split fire at all.
I prefer a Rule #2 policy,  "The Double Tap",  don't be stingy with your bullets.
After all, No one want's to be known as the "Underkill Guy".
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Charistoph

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #14 on: 07 June 2022, 14:42:03 »
Don't split fire at all.
I prefer a Rule #2 policy,  "The Double Tap",  don't be stingy with your bullets.
After all, No one want's to be known as the "Underkill Guy".

There are times when it is useful, like playing Quirks with a Thunderbolt TDR-5S or TDR-5SS and you have hard targets and Conventional Infantry in range.

Might as well BRRRT the PBI while you Freem the Griffin, right?
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Iceweb

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #15 on: 07 June 2022, 15:43:29 »
I just wonder the idea of shooting a bunch of machine guns at 3 hexes to try to scrape something with a lucky hit seems not worth the weight compared to other options.  If this is a tank instead of a mech it seems like instead of mounting multiple machine guns or flamers and trying to kite PBI at range, you could spend the weight on a light AC or SRMs or even LRMs and then use frag ammo of for SRMs infernoes. 

Sure they will call it a war crime but they call everything thing a war crime... 

But seriously if I expect to be shooting infantry I would rather mount an LRM 5 (and there are APCs that have those) and frag ammo and chew up any unarmored targets and failing that shred any woods that I think my enemy might want to hide behind/in. 

On the other hand quad machine guns is a lot of dakka and that is awesome. 

Colt Ward

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #16 on: 07 June 2022, 16:05:03 »
I just wonder the idea of shooting a bunch of machine guns at 3 hexes to try to scrape something with a lucky hit seems not worth the weight compared to other options.  If this is a tank instead of a mech it seems like instead of mounting multiple machine guns or flamers and trying to kite PBI at range, you could spend the weight on a light AC or SRMs or even LRMs and then use frag ammo of for SRMs infernoes. 

You get multiple chances to hit on low probability shots without taking up a lot of weight.

The previously mentioned Joust has six Light MGs- which means 2/4/6 on the ranges, and 6 LMGs & a half ton ammo is 2 tons.  You cannot get the probability to hit with those other weapons you mentioned.
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Iceweb

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #17 on: 07 June 2022, 17:49:26 »
Fair but an SRM reaches to 9 hexes and can mount infernoes
If you want range it to take pot shots at targets where they can't hit you back or have a hard time because you are kiting them, I would think that spending the weight to mount the bigger weapons than machine guns would be more useful, but that comes back to the whole point of the discussion, if you should be kiting or working on long range at 6 hexes, or one or two chances to hit at 9 hexes or at 6 you are at medium range and have a better chance of hitting. 

I don't know the answer but I lean to the missiles or an autocannon over the dakka spam and hoping for one of the dice to give you a good roll.

Weirdo

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #18 on: 07 June 2022, 18:06:13 »
What's your plan for when that SRM rack or LAC misses its single to-hit roll because your main guns are hogging the juicy primary target modifiers hitting that Thunderbolt downrange?
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Colt Ward

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #19 on: 07 June 2022, 20:13:52 »
Yeah, to match it you would need a SRM2 . . . and even if both infernos hit, how many is that down?  FREX, for SRMs it is one chance at a range of six on a 8 while the LMGs, at long range, are six chances on a 10.  Which also does not require you to pack a ton of special ammo.
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Hellraiser

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #20 on: 07 June 2022, 20:22:51 »
The lack of Multiple Ammo Ton Slots on most vehicles is the issue for me unless your playing a company+ sized game.

Fluff wise Inferno is supposed to be rare & dangerous & "frowned upon" already, IIRC, & its the only ammo type that I would think of tanking over standard SRMs when it comes to crit hunting.

The rest are just too niche use for a small 2-3 unit game.
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Iceweb

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Re: A thought about MG clusters
« Reply #21 on: 07 June 2022, 22:57:40 »
What's your plan for when that SRM rack or LAC misses its single to-hit roll because your main guns are hogging the juicy primary target modifiers hitting that Thunderbolt downrange?

Just the hope that I've got range on the target or a better to hit by being in medium or better range. 
You make a good point.

 

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