Author Topic: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?  (Read 1399 times)

williamamaral

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Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« on: 19 August 2024, 05:13:23 »
I may be completely wrong, but listening to people talk about this game reminds me more of bolt-action than Warhammer. In bolt action, you have early, mid, and late war, and there are different times of the war with different tech and tanks. Succession Wars, Clan invasions, and Word of Blake Jihad are different periods of history, each with different Mech and weapons because techs have not yet been invented. Also, I watched a couple of YouTubers, and they have a percentage of how much a faction has said Mech, much like in a history game where they may tell you how much of a weapon was produced and how often it was. So, am I accurate? Is BattleTech more similar to a historical game than a normal fantasy or sci-war game?

Inxentas

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #1 on: 19 August 2024, 06:31:18 »
In a sense, yeah. Or at least that is how I interpret it. Take the specificality of historical wargaming, but then apply that to a fictional universe based on a competative board game. That being said, you can play BT with that same "re-enactment" mindset if you so desire. But you can just as well play a game of competative robo-chess without going into the rabbit holes that are eras and factions.

Lanceman

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #2 on: 19 August 2024, 06:36:25 »
Only if you play it that way.

One fantastic, but admittedly difficult for new folks to deal with, aspect of BattleTech that list building is based entirely upon local expectations. While there is official guidance to help you build a force for a game, none of the restrictions like "must be from this era", "must be available to this faction", etc. are inherent to the game. It's entirely dependent upon the folks playing the match what kind of restrictions they want to set for themselves. You might find a group that is totally free for all "just bring a force that matches this Battle Value, no restrictions" or you might find ones that are "No vehicles or infantry, introtech only, your force has to comply with a Master Unit List faction" or anywhere in between.

A lot of folks like the restrictions so that their matches are more "fluffy" or lore friendly and see them as enhancements to the narratives that emerge from their games. 
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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #3 on: 19 August 2024, 10:02:01 »
You might find a group that is totally free for all "just bring a force that matches this Battle Value, no restrictions" or you might find ones that are "No vehicles or infantry, introtech only, your force has to comply with a Master Unit List faction" or anywhere in between.

And the same group can rotate between both extremes regularly.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #4 on: 19 August 2024, 14:22:13 »
Lol, I was going to say as much as you want it to be one.  I go heavy into war-game simulation when using megamek because it makes it a lot easier to include components hard to replicate on table top- recon, artillery, more realistic battlefields (32x32, nearly 1 sq klick starting point of maps), environmental effects (weather & explosive terrain) along with special rules.  Objectives and forced withdrawal.

Table top?  Most games devolve into last mech standing and if too much BV is allowed to be divided between too few units it slogs into turret wars.
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Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #5 on: 19 August 2024, 16:14:48 »
In a sense, yeah. Or at least that is how I interpret it. Take the specificality of historical wargaming, but then apply that to a fictional universe based on a competative board game. That being said, you can play BT with that same "re-enactment" mindset if you so desire. But you can just as well play a game of competative robo-chess without going into the rabbit holes that are eras and factions.

Historical pre-enactment, if you will
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bobthecoward

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #6 on: 19 August 2024, 20:31:21 »
do bolt action players do equal forces battles or uneven forces to simulate historical battles?

Prospernia

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #7 on: 20 August 2024, 19:24:43 »
I always considered it sci-fi war; and when I first started playing, there were no Clans, or Wordies.

DevianID

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #8 on: 21 August 2024, 00:31:12 »
The mechanics definitely do align with the simulation side.  'introductory' rules are matched to the 3rd/4th succession war era pretty closely, and 'standard' rules are matched to clan invasion/fedcom civil war.  The advanced rulebooks add weapons that show up in later eras, so if you are trying to run a quad vee, you will need the late era stuff found in interstellar operations.  Since the rulebooks are kinda gated this way, usually the more advanced the rules you use, the later your game is set.

So while no one is telling you to run 'era' based warfare, if you want to play with a 'Skinwalker', you immediately arent using introductory rules--you need multiple late game era rulebooks for something like that.

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #9 on: 21 August 2024, 09:39:38 »
Battletech is a tabletop wargame with role-playing elements baked-in. Chief among these is the record sheet, which is closely analogous to an RPG character sheet.

It has often been marketed as a board game.
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Inxentas

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #10 on: 22 August 2024, 03:16:25 »
The rules are explicit about offering abstraction instead of simulation, though. But to my mind, rules crunch doesn't provide simulation all that much, it provides immersion and detail. That always has been the duality that comes with it being a game. But is it military-scifi? I would say yes, in places to a fault, even.  :police:

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #11 on: 22 August 2024, 14:09:59 »
Battletech is what warhammer 40k wanted to be. A Narrative toolbox, that encourages a roleplaying mindset
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bobthecoward

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #12 on: 22 August 2024, 14:23:28 »
The rules are explicit about offering abstraction instead of simulation, though. But to my mind, rules crunch doesn't provide simulation all that much, it provides immersion and detail. That always has been the duality that comes with it being a game. But is it military-scifi? I would say yes, in places to a fault, even.  :police:

Abstract doesnt seem like the right word? The adherence to 10 second rounds, the fact the same weapons perform the same, the exactness of the mech speeds are concrete, but simplified.

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #13 on: 23 August 2024, 01:06:01 »
Abstract doesnt seem like the right word? The adherence to 10 second rounds, the fact the same weapons perform the same, the exactness of the mech speeds are concrete, but simplified.

Considering vastly different calibers of ACs do the exact same damage, abstraction seems like the right word.

bobthecoward

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #14 on: 23 August 2024, 05:47:49 »
Considering vastly different calibers of ACs do the exact same damage, abstraction seems like the right word.

That seems like just simplification.

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #15 on: 23 August 2024, 07:26:49 »
Considering vastly different calibers of ACs do the exact same damage, abstraction seems like the right word.

Despite how detailed BattleTech is, it is still abstracted like this.  I like that.
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Aotrs Commander

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #16 on: 23 August 2024, 18:33:24 »
I may be completely wrong, but listening to people talk about this game reminds me more of bolt-action than Warhammer. In bolt action, you have early, mid, and late war, and there are different times of the war with different tech and tanks. Succession Wars, Clan invasions, and Word of Blake Jihad are different periods of history, each with different Mech and weapons because techs have not yet been invented. Also, I watched a couple of YouTubers, and they have a percentage of how much a faction has said Mech, much like in a history game where they may tell you how much of a weapon was produced and how often it was. So, am I accurate? Is BattleTech more similar to a historical game than a normal fantasy or sci-war game?

I would personally say that BattleTech is more a normal (if significantly above average) wargame, as opposed to Warhammer and its ilk which are more the outliers in many ways (including, let's face it, for neutral or for ill, size and name-recognition).

The rules are explicit about offering abstraction instead of simulation, though. But to my mind, rules crunch doesn't provide simulation all that much, it provides immersion and detail. That always has been the duality that comes with it being a game. But is it military-scifi? I would say yes, in places to a fault, even.  :police:

A simulation is only as accurate as its least accurate component.

Rules crunch absolutely does directly bear on a simulation, but it very much depends on what you want to simulate. BattleTech at its core, doesn't really simulate the real world armoured combat terribly well (non-BA infantry, for one, being essentially chaff until quite late in rules or the fact that 12m-tall giant robots are not mowed down as easy targets by tanks because they can't hide anyway for another), but that is kinda of the point of its main contention (Giant Robots), so that isn't an important factor.

But even that said, BT DOES, however, pay a lot more attention to a lot of important simulationist details most wargames (historical or otherwise) entirely ignore (e.g. dead ground) and makes a very commendable attempt to at least cover and integrate all aspects of warfare, including off-table artillery strikes, air-support, campaigns, logistics... And in a fashion in which is left entirely open (and with increasing choice of what rules to use) for players to use or not. On top of the fact that one can be really keen into the lore and make canon-accurate units, down to the colour schemes and what variants that faction used when... Or completely ignore all of that and just make forces entirely based on What Mech Looks Cool.

(The latter of which I am a card-carry member, because I treat BattleTech "casually" compared to my other wargames (one of which (Manouvre Group) is fundementally a real-world tactics simulator first and foremost.))

Prospernia

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #17 on: 28 August 2024, 20:52:31 »
Short answer: yes.  After playing Robotech, and their abstract MDC (Hit-points) rules, Battletech was a step up!  But, then again, after playing Centurion, were you could penetrate-armor with a few lucky-shots and go directly to the internal-systems, and especially after playing, Cyperpunk: 2020's Maximum-Metal, were a guy with a LAW can take out a tank (just like IRL), the game was less-realistic and felt more like a simulator.

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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #18 on: 29 August 2024, 09:34:33 »
I may be completely wrong, but listening to people talk about this game reminds me more of bolt-action than Warhammer. In bolt action, you have early, mid, and late war, and there are different times of the war with different tech and tanks. Succession Wars, Clan invasions, and Word of Blake Jihad are different periods of history, each with different Mech and weapons because techs have not yet been invented. Also, I watched a couple of YouTubers, and they have a percentage of how much a faction has said Mech, much like in a history game where they may tell you how much of a weapon was produced and how often it was. So, am I accurate? Is BattleTech more similar to a historical game than a normal fantasy or sci-war game?

GOD NO, that would be horrible.  Battletech is a beer and pretzels game, at least in authorial intent.  There are some rules that make it more simulationist, but honestly it's very, very far from simulating all the factors at play.  IMO, Battletech and D&D share a roughly equal spot on the sliding scale of Narative gaming vs Simulationist gaming, where they are slightly more on the side of crunchy simulation, but only slightly.  This isn't The Campaign for North Africa, and you don't need it to be.  Most people don't start their games of battletech with an extended 'patrol and detection' minigame where the two parties have to actually find each other for a fight, and the party that locates and shoots first gets a realistic advantage for ambushing the other side when they were still unawares.  And that's good, because losing such a game and having your mechs strung out, getting hit from behind or the side would SUCK.
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Re: Is BattleTech a sci-military simulator game?
« Reply #19 on: 29 August 2024, 13:15:29 »
GOD NO, that would be horrible.  Battletech is a beer and pretzels game, at least in authorial intent.  There are some rules that make it more simulationist, but honestly it's very, very far from simulating all the factors at play.  IMO, Battletech and D&D share a roughly equal spot on the sliding scale of Narative gaming vs Simulationist gaming, where they are slightly more on the side of crunchy simulation, but only slightly.  This isn't The Campaign for North Africa, and you don't need it to be.  Most people don't start their games of battletech with an extended 'patrol and detection' minigame where the two parties have to actually find each other for a fight, and the party that locates and shoots first gets a realistic advantage for ambushing the other side when they were still unawares.  And that's good, because losing such a game and having your mechs strung out, getting hit from behind or the side would SUCK.

I've been playing since Battledroids and Beer and Pretzel is how I always describe the game. There's a table top tactical aspect, a role playing aspect and with Alpha Strike a semi-strategic aspect.
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