Mapping A DropShip

[Charistoph]

I don't know if it will help at all, but the old Luthien Scenario book had a scenario where you used Mechwarrior 2nd Edition RPG rules to steal a Union C.

Here's the floor plan they provided.

[Hellraiser]

Ah Yes,  I recall that one.

I love that blue print for "ideas" but Oh my does it not match any known DS type, LOL.

Fighter Bays?  On the Union-C?

Repairs in 2 locked in bays but also in the open area, and like 12 Lances of mechs?

LOL. 

But overall its a nice idea at least to see how things are laid out reference.

[mechasaurus]

At least a KF Boom connection should be at the docking collar.

The way it's depicted is the docking collar of the Union is on the bottom.  It would have mechanical clamps and a KF boom connection (which then extends up the spine of the ship).  I like the depiction in this image:



It doesn't quite match the 3025 drawing, but is a pretty good attempt.  It's ambiguous whether there's personnel/dry cargo transfer at the docking collar. 

docking collars have complete pressure hull access, yes, including cargo transfer and personnel access, in addition to power, fuel, and probably life support even if the rules don't actually reflect that last one, couplings. This is reflected in the cargo and personnel transfer rules for docked vessels which may be in StratOps or CampOps these days

I couldn't find a reference in either that makes this clear.  In fact, they talk about refuelling drogues for aerospace units.  So, without further clarity, you could say the docking collar provides mechanical linkage to the jumpship, interface to the KF boom, and a nearby umbilical for liquid (Hydrogen) refuelling.

I don't know if it will help at all, but the old Luthien Scenario book had a scenario where you used Mechwarrior 2nd Edition RPG rules to steal a Union C.

Here's the floor plan they provided.

Yeah, I've seen that around on the web and couldn't make heads or tails of what I was looking at!  Well North of a Battalion's worth of mechs?  That's not even an Overlord!  Also, assuming a 5m mech width, that ship's at least 95m across!

[Hellraiser]

It looks short to me, like, only 60m instead of 90.

While it might not be the actual KF Boom hook up point, the Docking Collar/Clamps to include some form of airlock to at least 1 of the doors somehow, as you can move between docked DS & the JS.

Remember they are "pits" so the lowest level of door might actually be covered & connect to an airlock that is semi submerged into the "well".

[mechasaurus]

While it might not be the actual KF Boom hook up point, the Docking Collar/Clamps to include some form of airlock to at least 1 of the doors somehow, as you can move between docked DS & the JS.

I've been looking for a reference to support this, but it's not in TM, SOps nor COps.  It's easy, when searching though, to miss stuff, so if anyone can point me to the references for anything in this thread, I'll chalk it up to blindness, and not be offended!  It'd be much appreciated.

Remember they are "pits" so the lowest level of door might actually be covered & connect to an airlock that is semi submerged into the "well".

Oh, yeah.  The art can be anything!  It gets different, though, when a person is half-imagining having a crack at some deck plans or something.

ETA: Regarding the Union C deck plans, you could almost make it work if you ignore the mech representations.  Note it has a mech lift right in the middle so there's no strong back/spine/boom running through this one.

[Charistoph]

Ah Yes,  I recall that one.

I love that blue print for "ideas" but Oh my does it not match any known DS type, LOL.

Fighter Bays?  On the Union-C?

Repairs in 2 locked in bays but also in the open area, and like 12 Lances of mechs?

LOL. 

But overall its a nice idea at least to see how things are laid out reference.

Looking back, the scenario did say the "Union Class Dropship Broadsword".  Maybe it didn't receive the C upgrade and was Isorla from another planet they took.  A Union can hold a whole Binary while having enough room for a couple spares.

Edit: Luthien did come out a year before TRO: 3057 when all the Clan Dropships were introduced, so a bit of funny retconning may be going on.

[Hellraiser]

I've been looking for a reference to support this, but it's not in TM, SOps nor COps.  It's easy, when searching though, to miss stuff, so if anyone can point me to the references for anything in this thread, I'll chalk it up to blindness, and not be offended!  It'd be much appreciated.

I think it's more fluff info, fiction where people are on a Warship/Jumpship Bridge but came from a Dropship.
They had to get there somehow, and didn't use an EV Suit to do it.

[mechasaurus]

I think it's more fluff info, fiction where people are on a Warship/Jumpship Bridge but came from a Dropship.
They had to get there somehow, and didn't use an EV Suit to do it.

That's exactly it.  Those are references I won't know.  If it happened in a novel somewhere, it'd be pretty easy to miss.

[idea weenie]

Just to get this out of the way, I don't know if there's a lore precedent for the Union setting down on water, but as it is, space capsules are buoyant and need stabilizing air bags to stay upright in the water, otherwise they can roll and, if penetrated, sink.

Using 2126 tons (as discussed, empty) and some rounding, I got approximately 267,594 m^3 of air and 487 m^3 of iron.  Spread out over a surface area of approximately 20,106 m^2 gives an average wall thickness of 0.024 m (or 24 mm or 1 inch).  The ratio of wall thickness to diameter is approximately 0.0006 which is between a ping pong ball at 0.005 and a balloon at 0.0005 (you were close with your first statement).

There's no question in my mind that a spheroid Union would pitch, roll and yaw uncontrollably on the ocean like a balloon in a wave pool, without some kind of stabilization.

Now, there are a heap of assumptions here.  We're assuming the skin is iron and not some magic, sci-fi unobtanium alloy.  We've also forgotten to factor in the density of hundreds of tons of liquid hydrogen (they say 200, but I say more - at least double).

But yes, in general, the Union (and Overlord) should be big, hollow eggs.  It makes sense.  The mech bay decks, even with mechs in the bays would, on average, be empty except for air.  I've started preliminary layouts for deck plans, and once you look at the big circular decks, 8 mech bays (I've assumed an 8 m x 5 m x 15 m bounding box) take up very little room on that second mech deck.

ETA - By comparison, steel wall thicknesses:
VLCC (very large crude carrier) - 19 to 24.5 mm on the sides (thicker on the bottom)
Spacex Starship - 4 mm
My Union calcs above - 24 mm

So, it seems wonky on a military ship in the 31st century but isn't 100% out to lunch.  It's some fantastical alloy, maybe, but not as wholly wrong as a 90 m range on a machine gun!

The 2126 tons of empty Union also includes the following:
- the ~700 ton main engine (3600 tons * Thrust 3 * 6.5% per Thrust pt)
- The 600 tons needed for the 12 Mech Bays (150 tons per Bay have room for a 100-ton Mech, so 50 tons remaining each)
- The 100 tons needed for the 2 ASF Bays (150 tons per Bay have room for a 100-ton ASF, so 50 tons remaining each)
- 183 tons of weapons and ammo (166+17)
- 107 tons for crew quarters (3 First class, 11 Second class)

This reduces your available tonnage for the hull from 2126 tons to 434 tons, and reduces the hull thickness to less than 5 mm.

Edit: Nerd stuff for me while on work downtime.  If the 79.5 tons of structure of a union was of the same 4mm stainless steel structure SpaceX uses, then a union would have a radius of 14/diameter of 28, if built with todays materials.  The Density of the structure material, if the btech material is more advanced so has a lower density while maintaining the same strength of what we use now with the SpaceX design, would need to be around that of water, or about 7 times less dense then stainless steel.  So a polymer/plastic would work, like a fancier kevlar.  If the diameter wasnt 78 meters, but instead 50 meters, now the density of our stainless steel replacement is about that of aluminum... Aluminum of the future thats as strong as stainless steel, but still its impressive you get a 50 meter wide aluminum sphere for only 79.5 tons, at 4mm 'SpaceX' thickness.  Thats why I say yes dropships are too big, but not THAT far off--maybe 2x to avoid leaning into scifi meta materials.  A fully loaded 5k ton SpaceX Starship, at 120m tall and 9 meters diameter, only has a density of 2/3rd of water, so it would float easily.  When drained and empty, the empty mass of Starship is 300 tons, and it has a comical but real world density of 39.5, versus water at ~1000.  For armor, a dropship would be able to get a lot of protection using alternating layers of aerogel like material and polymer sealing layer, along with polyfibers for strength.  This is the only armor that I think would work on such a large volume, kinda like a sheet of kevlar fabric that would form a skin with a gap in front of the structure of the hull.  The Aerogel would create the thermal barrier needed, the polymer seal would make it airtight and glue it to the base layer, and a sheet of fancy fabric would be the structure base layer the aerogel is glued to, while also giving you protection versus small penetrators that would easily crack the brittle outer aerogel layer.

Diameter of 28 meters?  So about 91 feet instead of my 80 feet?  That could work.

[DevianID]

Diameter of 28 meters?  So about 91 feet instead of my 80 feet?  That could work.

Yep, 79.5 tons of stainless steel gets you a 4mm (spacex spec) sphere with a 28 meter diameter, with a few tons to spare.  The KF boom/central strong spine would come from the engine tonnage in this case, and the floors for your quarters would be quite thin and come from the quarters tonnage.  The armor at 37 tons, again built with current tech, would be sheets of kevlar and a poly seal (like fancy truckbed liner) in a 1:2 thickness ratio, with aerogel tiled onto the polyseal.  That gives you about 1cm total of a lightweight kevlar/polyseal, enough for 2 seperatel 5mm layers of fabric+sealant for 28 tons, with the aerogel adding 5-10cm of thickness between each layer incase your outer heat ablative aerogel shell comes off for 9 tons.  The aerogel would be a huge pain in the butt to make that much of, but once you built a mass production factory the economy of scale would help.  If they were tiles like the space shuttle, each layer (im recommending 2 layers) would be made of 100,000 6inch x 6inch tiles, so hundreds of thousands of little tiles.  Maybe in the future they are able to make larger squares of aerogel, but for todays tech you are gonna be there tile-ing the dropship for a long time.

If you used the older space shuttle silica tiles (which used 24,000 tiles), youd get only 2.5cm worth of tiles (1 inch) per the 9 tons of armor I had left after the kevlar+ polysealer, so several times less thick then aerogel, but using a tech that already was produced at scale.  Since the shuttles tiles ranged from .5 inches to 4 inches thick, the older silica tiles would work as a 2 layer system of the real world .5 inch silica tiles, but only barely--though Dropships dont heat up as much as the space shuttle did.

Edit: This is assuming you had to build a dropship with todays materials.  Fancy future materials that are lighter let you make a larger sphere, closer to the overinflated 78 meter width.  That said, there is currently no reason in game to make a larger sphere, as even at 28 meters wide you have more then enough internal volume for all the mechs, bays, thrusters, fuel and such [but the mechs+fighters are shoulder to shoulder, cause liquid hydrogen eats 25% of the 28 meter wide sphere's volume], but a 40 meter width is very achievable if you need larger dropships but want them to be more plausible; then each dimension is only off by 2x, so any map made is easy to scale.

[mechasaurus]

The 2126 tons of empty Union also includes the following:
- the ~700 ton main engine (3600 tons * Thrust 3 * 6.5% per Thrust pt)
- The 600 tons needed for the 12 Mech Bays (150 tons per Bay have room for a 100-ton Mech, so 50 tons remaining each)
- The 100 tons needed for the 2 ASF Bays (150 tons per Bay have room for a 100-ton ASF, so 50 tons remaining each)
- 183 tons of weapons and ammo (166+17)
- 107 tons for crew quarters (3 First class, 11 Second class)

This reduces your available tonnage for the hull from 2126 tons to 434 tons, and reduces the hull thickness to less than 5 mm.

Okay, it's worse than that, by the rules!  You haven't added in fuel (215 tons), pumps and tanks (4.5 tons), controls, etc.  The only place that you could really call "Hull" would be the Structural Integrity (it has dots on the record sheet).  A Mech's IS is 10% (IS, standard, not endo-steel, etc.) of weight.  SI on a Union is 11 giving an SI weight of 79.5.  So.  Your hull is less than 80 tons, by the rules (just over 2% of weight)!  That's so sci-fi, that at that point, why even charge a weight?

In trying to lay this all out, I'm figuring that some of the weight costs of the other things are integrated into the hull (like a mech bay includes reinforced decking and structural supports and percentage of the weight of an overhead crane, etc.). 

Also, I'm rejigging the fuel to engine to pumps and tanks ratios.  Why bother?  Well, one constraint is that I have to leave most of the 'rules' in place (I'm not remaking the game/setting), so the weights have to be about the same.  However, on a deck plan one has to determine how much space is reserved for the engine, tankage and so forth. I've planned for 4 spherical tanks, 16 m across, giving a total tonnage of fuel (liquid hydrogen) 608 tonnes (yes, tonnes are more than tons (I figure they're only loaded to a High High Level limit meaning those 608 tonnes become 608 tons )).  So for the same weight total, instead of 702 t engine, 215 t fuel, 4.5 t pumps and tankage, I have 301.5 t engine, 600 t fuel and 20 t pumps and tankage.  It 'feels' better because their fuel consumption doesn't seem to take into account reaction mass.  I've seen another thread duking it out, and for my money, at least double what the rules say.  Nevertheless, I still need Unobtanium Alloy for the tanks! 

That is my conceit to the sci-fi aspects.  I have to do what 'feels' right for a layout and just hope they invented the materials to do what I'm planning.  I want it to at least, again, 'feel' like it could be real, you know?  Most people won't care about what the empty weight of a liquid hydrogen tank is, but I do want the engineering deck to feel crowded, cramped with lots of big/heavy stuff taking up the space (because, again, most of the rest of the ship is big, empty mech and fighter bays).  What looks big and heavy, but isn't very dense?  Liquid Hydrogen tanks!  And again, you need the reaction mass (artists concepts of fusion-powered ships tend to be big collections of tanks and an engine).

[DevianID]

A Mech's IS is 10% (IS, standard, not endo-steel, etc.) of weight.  SI on a Union is 11 giving an SI weight of 79.5.  So.  Your hull is less than 80 tons, by the rules (just over 2% of weight)!  That's so sci-fi, that at that point, why even charge a weight?

To be fair to the dropship, the union spends 79.5 tons on structure, and can only sustain 22 damage before total structural collapse.  A mech with 1 ton of structure, a 10 ton unit, can take 19 points of damage; if you only care about CT structure, a 70 ton mech, so 7 tons of structure, can take 22 to the CT (plus the 85 elsewhere).  So the hull on dropships, at least rules wise, isnt really about redundant internal supports or locations like it is with mechs that have arms and such.  So yeah, I dont see an issue with the low structure tonnage, as the rules do make it pretty thin... 50x times weaker to damage by weight then what mechs get.

To the point of loading more fuel and changing engine weight, im not against that, but dont see the value when you end up in the same place.  Id rather just keep the existing construction rules, and keep in mind the engine might include an 'operating level' of hydrogen as part of the 700 tons.

Because of this thread, I maped out a 14m radius union for fun, to see if it was doable using the same 5mm stainless steel we are using on the SpaceX starship.  I also used reference photos from the hangar deck of an aircraft carrier to fit the mechs, so the mechs are tightly packed in a single deck to fit everything in a 28 meter diameter.  Living space is sparse, engine/component/nozzle access is through the wireframe support struts, so you gotta crawl in the middle of the wireframe to get to the hard to reach places, and liquid hydrogen fills most of the lower ship... but it works. 

Scifi just gives you fancy lighter weight materials so everything has more elbow room, while the existing BT sizes are just far too big, not just from a science POV but a practicality one... you dont need 2 decks for mechs, for example, as while im sure when they wrote that they thought 78 meters was too small to fit 12 on one level, but it turns out its far too much room--the second level is already a waste of space and needlessly complex, with ramps to nowhere, when the first level can already hold way more then 12 units even laying them down and spreading out as much as possible.  Since the dropship size isnt part of any rule, its better to assume a new layout, if we ever got one, would/should be smaller.  Like, didn't the Union C have room for a Battalion on its deck plans it was so unnecessarily large? 
The Luthien map shows roughly 6meter wide warhammers on a 78 meter wide ship fitting 5 to a bay with maneuver room, across 12 potential outer bay sections.  This mapped to 12 outer sections each having a 70 meter area, plus an inner ring with 7 sections with 70 meter storage space, with each 70 meter space shown to fit 5 warhammers without issue.  On just 1 level.  The union at 78 meters is simply (accidentally?) too large, no need for science to say its density is too low or anything.  Its wider then most skyscrapers, which is saying something.

[mechasaurus]

So yeah, I dont see an issue with the low structure tonnage, as the rules do make it pretty thin... 50x times weaker to damage by weight then what mechs get.

I get this.  It's meant to be fragile by the rules.  I thought that it was supposed to be a small, but rugged transport.  It's like an egg.  It's strong in some respects, but if it tips over or cracks it could catastrophically fail pretty quickly.

To the point of loading more fuel and changing engine weight, im not against that, but dont see the value when you end up in the same place.  Id rather just keep the existing construction rules, and keep in mind the engine might include an 'operating level' of hydrogen as part of the 700 tons.

Oh, the result is purely fictional/for deck plans.  As far as the rules go, I'd still pay exactly those amounts and then say something just like what you said.

Because of this thread, I maped out a 14m radius union for fun, to see if it was doable using the same 5mm stainless steel we are using on the SpaceX starship.  I also used reference photos from the hangar deck of an aircraft carrier to fit the mechs, so the mechs are tightly packed in a single deck to fit everything in a 28 meter diameter.  Living space is sparse, engine/component/nozzle access is through the wireframe support struts, so you gotta crawl in the middle of the wireframe to get to the hard to reach places, and liquid hydrogen fills most of the lower ship... but it works. 

That sounds like a fun exercise, but for the moment, I'm trying to stick to the layout with the given dimensions

Scifi just gives you fancy lighter weight materials so everything has more elbow room,

Yep, so like in my last post, I'm just going for layout and what feels right, and just assuming they have the materials science to make it work!

as while im sure when they wrote that they thought 78 meters was too small to fit 12 on one level, but it turns out its far too much room

Not quite sure about this.  More below.

Like, didn't the Union C have room for a Battalion on its deck plans it was so unnecessarily large? 
The Luthien map shows roughly 6meter wide warhammers on a 78 meter wide ship fitting 5 to a bay with maneuver room, across 12 potential outer bay sections.  This mapped to 12 outer sections each having a 70 meter area, plus an inner ring with 7 sections with 70 meter storage space, with each 70 meter space shown to fit 5 warhammers without issue.  On just 1 level.  The union at 78 meters is simply (accidentally?) too large, no need for science to say its density is too low or anything.  Its wider then most skyscrapers, which is saying something.

That drawing posted by Charistoph is highly problematic. Let's assume the Warhammer is 6m wide. Nevermind that the new, and I must say awesome, sculpts imply that it's closer to 9 - 10 m wide, nor that the 3025 Union drawing with the 'hammer to scale suggests it's about 7 m wide.  Assuming 6, that means the depicted ship is at least 110 m wide (larger than an Overlord)!  Worse, the bunks in the crew quarters are 5m wide and 10m long!!

I'm blocking it out (I intend to share images at some point).  Right now, assuming a mech cubicle 15m x 11m x 7 m fits 8 pretty snugly around the upper mech deck walls, with room for elevators, the central core and plenty of open air space for ammo, workshops, crane movements, etc.  It's big, but it certainly can't fit the dozens upon dozens shown in that picture.  The lower mech deck could fit just as many, but you lose a bunch of floor space to those two stupid ramps.  I intend to keep the ramps, because they help with those offset doors, and even in conflicting drawings, they're still represented.  But yes, they are kind of dumb.  The two upper mech doors are directly on the lower mech deck and the ramps go down to doors about half way between the lower mech deck and  the engineering deck.  The doors will have individual airlocks for space egress.  Digression - The ramps only work if you squint just right.  You need to make about 12 - 13 m elevation gain in just under 30 m of curving ramp.  The game rules say you can only make a maximum of 12 m elevation gain in 30 m.  So... either I make the ramps curve further around or say, 'meh, close enough.' 

[Mechanis]

The way it's depicted is the docking collar of the Union is on the bottom.  It would have mechanical clamps and a KF boom connection (which then extends up the spine of the ship).  I like the depiction in this image:



It doesn't quite match the 3025 drawing, but is a pretty good attempt.  It's ambiguous whether there's personnel/dry cargo transfer at the docking collar. 

I couldn't find a reference in either that makes this clear.  In fact, they talk about refuelling drogues for aerospace units.  So, without further clarity, you could say the docking collar provides mechanical linkage to the jumpship, interface to the KF boom, and a nearby umbilical for liquid (Hydrogen) refuelling.

Yeah, I've seen that around on the web and couldn't make heads or tails of what I was looking at!  Well North of a Battalion's worth of mechs?  That's not even an Overlord!  Also, assuming a 5m mech width, that ship's at least 95m across!

Docked vessels (and this includes, mind, a DropShip docked to another DropShip collar-to-collar, and DropShips docked to space stations or ships with non-KF-Boom Docking Collars) can transfer fuel, cargo, personnel, and even units in bays between any ships so involved as though you were shifting them between different tanks or bays on the same ship, rather than having to deal with (checks all over the place) zero gee/vacuum cargo loading and unloading rules.

So EG, if DropShip A and DropShip B are both docked to a McKenna, they can pull cargo out of the McKenna's bays, move a company of tanks for DropShip A to DropShip B, and top up DropShip A's tanks from spare fuel in DropShip B's; all without having to deal with the rules for "we take things out of Hull A, float them through space, and put them into hull B"

This implies pretty implicitly that there's not just a cargo transport tube, there's a cargo transport tube you can fit an active BattleMech through (granted, probably an elevator arrangement, but still.)

[DevianID]

Ill note, that the hand drawn pic is really cool, BUT... thats a 15 meter tall marauder.  At over 4 cells wide, and say 5 long, would require 25 squares when viewed from above to not touch anything with its 12.5m very overscale size width.  How many cells are in the 32 diameter wide circular floor it is on?  804, - the 4 for the KF column in the middle.  You can fit (with 12.5 meter by 12.5 meter by 15 meter tall)... 32 of the over sized mechs on that drawing's level in 3d space without touching, with room for 1 foot thick walls between them if you really wanted. 

Im not against fancy scifi materials letting dropships be bigger, but they are going out of the way to waste space with the dimensions picked for space ships.  Even if they could make the ships that big, they wouldnt want to... just going to work when the elevator is out would be 350+ stairs one way, requiring a climb akin to the statue of liberty climb.  Mechs range from 8-14 meters regardless of the newer bigger models breaking the scale by making everything larger to allow the detail to show up on their soft plastic molds, so I can accept the crazy bulky mechs to get fancy models.  But the size of a union is just too big, and doesnt fit with the lore of needing 8 mechs on 1 level and 4 on a lower level, and it doesnt serve a real life purpose of solving production issues by making a larger/bulkier model.  Like, imagine looking out at a hangar with 8 mechs, 75% unused even with all the bay equipment and such, and saying you need a second hangar to fit in 4 more mechs, cause the first hangar is too cramped.  Are they holding relay races in that hangar?  On my circular diagrams I made, its just lots and lots of dead open space on the 78m scaled plans.  28 meter wide is tightly packed, 40 meter wide has elbow room but cant fit another mech or fighter on the single bay I drew, but 78 meters, 4x larger, looks like the Luthien one, huge open space everywhere and a running track to boot.

[mechasaurus]

Docked vessels (and this includes, mind, a DropShip docked to another DropShip collar-to-collar, and DropShips docked to space stations or ships with non-KF-Boom Docking Collars) can transfer fuel, cargo, personnel, and even units in bays between any ships so involved as though you were shifting them between different tanks or bays on the same ship, rather than having to deal with (checks all over the place) zero gee/vacuum cargo loading and unloading rules...

This implies pretty implicitly that there's not just a cargo transport tube, there's a cargo transport tube you can fit an active BattleMech through (granted, probably an elevator arrangement, but still.)

Strat Ops makes it pretty clear that ships can dock/transfer with docking collars or bay doors, saying, "Two large craft can attempt to dock, linking airlocks (such as bay doors) or docking adapters" (p. 54) and later, "mechanisms in the docking collar or cargo bay door" p. 162.  They also mention that DropShips drop off JumpShips like super-sized cargo containers

I take this all to mean that wholesale cargo transfer does not typically move through the KF docking collar between JumpShips and Dropships.  It doesn't say anywhere that mechs can move through the KF docking collar.

The way I've interpreted all of this is that the bay doors have indvidual airlocks/docking clamps, which I've made room for.  The KF docking collar has clamps, KF boom extension, personnel access hatches and refueling/comms/power umbilicals, but no cargo transfer/large elevator.

You can fit (with 12.5 meter by 12.5 meter by 15 meter tall)... 32 of the over sized mechs on that drawing's level in 3d space without touching, with room for 1 foot thick walls between them if you really wanted. 

We're starting to get to a point where we really need drawings to work with. 

This is the upper mech deck.  I've settled on a 9m wide 'hammer.  It's somewhat in line with the original 3025 sketch there, and only slightly smaller than the chonky new sculpt (in fact, according to that image, the 'hammer is 13.5 m tall vs the new 12.4 m).  So, I'm using 11m for each mech bay.  The mech bay has to include gantry/umbilicals/securing clamps/whatever.  You can see that the bay is still somewhat spacious, but you definitly can't walk 3 abreast.  You'll need some walking area, both for movement testing during repairs and also for staging when disembarking.  You could 'squeeze' a couple dozen mechs in that space, but there'd be no room for laydowns, efficiency during Ops, etc.  Aircraft carriers can squeeze up their hangars really tight, but apparently it impacts efficiency and generating sorties in combat.  That is, you could in theory pack more mechs in there, but you wouldn't.

But the size of a union is just too big, and doesnt fit with the lore of needing 8 mechs on 1 level and 4 on a lower level, and it doesnt serve a real life purpose of solving production issues by making a larger/bulkier model.

I haven't got the lower mech deck yet, but what I'm finding is the space for 4 of the mech bays on the upper deck is given up for the ramps on the lower deck.  So maybe that's why?  I don't know yet.

You can see from the original 3025 sketch that I have another problem.  The aerospace fighter door (or is that the cargo bay door) is halfway up the upper mech deck.  I could shrink the engineering deck down to a silly size to move the mech bays down to align the aerospace/cargo deck with that door, but then the lower mech bay door would be halfway up that wall!  As it is, I like that the lower mech bay door currently aligns with the deck of the lower mech bay (also, coincidentally, the viewports line up nicely with the bridge deck).  I may have to move that top door up.  Also, it's not big enough for an ASF, so maybe that's the cargo door.  I'm really going to have see what they've gone with on the map scale models (and how closely they're sticking to the 3025 sketch).

ETA: Criticisms, corrections, ideas and suggestions are very much appreciated, because I have no pride and am more interested in eventually moving from block diagrams to effective deck plans.

[Hellraiser]

So, I'm not going to try to break this down Meter by Meter, but, just putting this out there in regards to the deck plans as drawn & also the canon art of the Union-C up top.

A Union is basically 7 hexes.
And, in BT Scale you get up to 4 tanks (Max 2 Mechs) in a single hex.

So at it's widest point, the Union can handle a total of 14 Mechs + 14 Tanks "moving" in proximity to each other.
  No, we won't be running laps in mechs, but, you also don't want things so close together that a minor trip or tight corner causes massive structural damage & pops fuel lines, etc etc etc.

Then subtract things like walls, structural supports, scaffolding/gantries  etc etc.   Supervisor offices overlooking the bays.
Elevators/Lifts still need to move & have space around them for things to go on/off while still allowing things to be ripped open for repairs.

Then throw in considerations like,  You are NOT at a Motor Pool or in a Hanger at an Air Field.... you MAY be on this DS for months at a time.
So there is no, "we need more room, wheel it out away from the other mechs so we can work on it in the open.

Then there is the cargo storage that isn't on those plans but does have a dedicated bay/corner somewhere.

Suddenly having extra deck space starts to make some sense.

Then throw out the idea of drop cocoons for orbital drops.

Now, where are all the mechs stored when cocooned?

In their cubicles?  How do they get moved w/o "Walking"?   Moving Floor Lanes?   Tow Vehicles?

Stored in line leading to each "Drop Chute"?   Where are the bays for that?   


I get that a Union is well, a foot ball field.  But we are talking about 12M 100T Walking Tanks,  a dozen of them, and a bunch of cargo handlers & various cargo vehicles like airport tug thingies etc etc, all coming on/off those ramps to move stuff.

Yeah, I can see that being chaotic & feeling cramped & a danger to cause actual damage since this isn't being done on an open field or even in a hanger but in the SHIP.
Aluminum Siding on a Hanger can be repaired,  punching a hole in a wall in vacuum can have some pretty freaking big consequences.

To me the size isn't really the issue, it's that they should just plain weigh more.
   They are noted as being cramped most everywhere BUT the cargo bay, so that is a lot of small walls that take up mass.

Structure needs to weigh more IMO.  Which means entire ships need to weigh more.

[mechasaurus]

So, I'm not going to try to break this down Meter by Meter, but, just putting this out there in regards to the deck plans as drawn & also the canon art of the Union-C up top.

If the deck plans for the Union-C up top are canon, then the canon is broken.  The ship depicted is bigger than an Overlord, with swimming pool sized beds.

To me the size isn't really the issue, it's that they should just plain weigh more.
   They are noted as being cramped most everywhere BUT the cargo bay, so that is a lot of small walls that take up mass.

Structure needs to weigh more IMO.  Which means entire ships need to weigh more.

Yep, if you look at my block out for the main mech deck, it's reasonable once you take into account cubicle gantries, space to walk for staging, etc.  I'm not too concerned about the size.  But, I agree with you 100% it should weigh more (but that's a losing battle at this stage), and a larger percentage of weight needs to be devoted to reaction mass (even (or especially because and people forget) with fusion engines).

[Hellraiser]

If the deck plans for the Union-C up top are canon, then the canon is broken.  The ship depicted is bigger than an Overlord, with swimming pool sized beds.

Maybe, maybe not.  Hehe.
After all, that same deck plan has "Beds" & "Chairs" on it.
See, those beds, they are for Storm Giants..... or are they for people?   :)
Those "Warhammers" are not mechs, those are walking Forklifts (Industrial ExoSkeletons) like from Aliens :)

Okay, All kidding aside, yeah, I know the plans aren't scaled well.

I was just using it as an overlay in my head of a 7 hex circle, the space a Union should take up.
So each 1/7th of the ship has space for 4 tanks w/ some room to move around.
The Warhammers are a bit off in scale (like probably 2x?)  but it's not quite as bad as it might seem.
The beds are also not to scale, etc etc.  I think it's just there for a VERY simplistic "deck by deck" visual breakdown.

PS.
If you actually think of each bay as holding a single mech & you do think of those "5-hammers" as "5-forklifts" w/ a Mech taking up most of the bay the scale isn't quite so bad.

[DevianID]

Using reference photos of the actual mini, and assuming the Warhammer is 12 meters tall, then by the mini width the warhammers should be 1.8x bigger on the Luthien dropship.  Or, the dropship, like others said, is not a 76 meter internal diameter like it should be, but 135 meters wide if those are full sized whammers.  What does this change?  Not much in terms of how underutilized the space is when I make the warhammers bigger.  The beds, if the dropship was scaled to 78 meters wide, are still 5.6 meters long... because the dropships are massively too big and they had trouble filling the space.  The purple squares are the area the 1.8x larger 12 meter tall 6.75m wide 8.5 meter to barrel long upscaled warhammers.  And I could fit a ton more of them, heck the blacked out space, presumably the airlocks for the 4 doors, dont even prevent me from easily putting 12 warhammers in the bay.  If you optimized the space even a little, like not having a totally useless 50 meter ramp to go skiing on, the aerofighters fit too.

[mechasaurus]

Using reference photos of the actual mini, and assuming the Warhammer is 12 meters tall, then by the mini width the warhammers should be 1.8x bigger on the Luthien dropship.  Or, the dropship, like others said, is not a 76 meter internal diameter like it should be, but 135 meters wide if those are full sized whammers.

I agree, the drawings work better with the scaled up mechs.  It almost feels like it was originally supposed to, because there are 16 bays and the Union-C is supposed to carry 15 mechs, but then someone edited in the wrong size of mech outline.  I don't know what a "Fighting Bay" is (fighter? but then Union-Cs don't carry fighters), but there are 16 bays.

What does this change?  Not much in terms of how underutilized the space is when I make the warhammers bigger.  The beds, if the dropship was scaled to 78 meters wide, are still 5.6 meters long... because the dropships are massively too big and they had trouble filling the space.  The purple squares are the area the 1.8x larger 12 meter tall 6.75m wide 8.5 meter to barrel long upscaled warhammers.  And I could fit a ton more of them, heck the blacked out space, presumably the airlocks for the 4 doors, dont even prevent me from easily putting 12 warhammers in the bay.  If you optimized the space even a little, like not having a totally useless 50 meter ramp to go skiing on, the aerofighters fit too.

I'm glad that I'm not totally out to lunch on at least one thing.  Your blocking is similar enough to mine (at least in scale) that I feel like I'm on the right track.  I think the only difference is our interpretation. 

You feel that there's a lot of underutilized space, but I don't think you'd pack them in like sardines.  There's approximately room, in both of ours, working from the outer wall, for a mech bay, a circular walking area to move about 1 (safely, or at most 2) mechs abreast, a central whatever (core in my case, elevator/ramp/turntable/whatever in their case), then the walkway again on the other side and an opposite facing mech bay.  My interpretation is that 90% of mech repairs would take place in the mech bays, which would have gantries, umbilicals, crane access, etc.  Only occasionally would you have to do a lay down on the walkway or something.  We still haven't accounted for workshops, mules and, it just occurs to me, probably a somewhat hefty magazine.  Where are all the ammo reloads stored, such that somebody does't blow themselves up when doing hot work?  The main walkway would still give a feeling of 'openness,' but I don't think it's necessarily useless.

There are other problems with that drawing still (as you said, the crew quarters are too large, there's no accomodation for the mechwarriors, galley space, ops room (TOR) and it's even missing at least one full deck and the cargo bay), but yes, at that scale, it's better.

ETA: If you look at my sketch, there's a dashed line.  That represents the outer limit of the full height deck.  The walls curve in/out from there (in the vertical cross section, I used triangles, and eventually I'd use curves, but the space difference isn't that much), with the outside maximum represented by the solid line.  You can see that you can't fit mechs right up against the outer wall.  Maybe I can distribute the magazines around the outer wall.  They'd be enclosed, right up against the hull and if there was an explosion in one, just like CASE, it'd be meant to vent to space.

ETA ETA: A better example of blocking out/space use than an aircraft carrier is a modern frigate.  You could block out two helicopters on a deck plan, one on the flight deck and one in the hangar, but you couldn't operationally use the hangar one with one on the flight deck.  That doesn't make the flight deck wasted space (if for no other reason, that it's sometimes used for PT, shooting, receptions and of course, BBQs).

[Hellraiser]

Regardless of the fact that the Union has a 12+2 Bay layout & the Union-C has a 15+0, both are spread out over 2 (3 for ASF?) Levels/Decks.

Assuming the Bay above should have 8-Union or 10-Union-C mech bays, it's not that bad.

You're supposed to have space in the middle to move from Bay to Lift, etc etc, and as noted the black areas are supporting the drop chutes.

Yes, the plans themselves are wonky looking in terms of just exactly what model of ship it is, but, they weren't designed as detailed blueprints but as a RP aid for some infantry to board & capture a grounded ship.
The space in the middle to "move" makes total sense to me so I'm not seeing an issue there.

[mechasaurus]

Yes, the plans themselves are wonky looking in terms of just exactly what model of ship it is, but, they weren't designed as detailed blueprints but as a RP aid for some infantry to board & capture a grounded ship.
The space in the middle to "move" makes total sense to me so I'm not seeing an issue there.

For deck plans, I'm inspired by the original Star Trek blueprints.  Now, I'm no Franz Joseph, and while a Union is significantly smaller/easier than the Enterprise, I don't think I'll ever produce a document quite that detailed.  However, even for a somewhat detailed deck plan, you make some assumptions about how the sci-fi stuff works, then you try to craft something that could at least feel 'real.'

There are still design tradeoffs.  I'm really struggling with the internal ramps right now.  Despite being almost too short by the rules, I've got a conflict with the landing gear, anyway.  Even assuming the gear compact slightly, they still clash with the ramps.  I've been trying to imagine some sort of scheme where the ramp breaks away in flight, leaving only the top two doors available for use in space.  I'm really debating cutting the ramps and going for elevator-serviced drop chutes.  It's just that two of the existing drawings (the color and black and white ones) conflict with the 3rd drawing (the Union-C, above) and the text.  Aaaah!  Analysis paralysis!

[Hellraiser]

Yeah, dropships are often described as having either/or, or BOTH.

A ramp is great for a vehicle to drive up, but in turn, often they are fluffed as not being able to support the heaviest of units  (Stuff like 75T or less)

Lifts are great for saving space but then stop "trains" of stuff flowing.

I feel like I recall some fluff where the internal ramps were for moving down to the drop chutes v/s a lift for moving from Cargo Bay Lower to Cargo Bay Upper, but I have no idea where I'm recalling that from.

Which actually then brings up another aspect for Mech Carriers anyway.

We see the big doors on the side, and when your on the ground there are ramps that extend down to walk/drive up, BUT, how do the drop chutes work?
Are they different access points?
Are they the same big doors but they have a 2nd "path" where the cocooned mechs slide into place.
I mean, I feel like there would have to be a section to be sealed somehow so your not venting the entire cargo bay into space if your doing an orbital drop, or even just a high altitude one w/o cocoons.

[DevianID]

So for my money, on the luthien drawing where it has those 4 black sections, i would make that an airlock section with stacks of dropchute panels.  Mech walks in and stands on the heat shield chute floor, and some lightweight cocoon walls from a stack lock in around them.  The exit mechanism is a simple ceiling mounted crane/elevator that can track around the whole hangar, that slides out and drops them.  Seeing as the coccon isn't a weighted item that i have found, the shell material is very light/out of the way and included free as part of the 150 ton bay, along with the lift/cranes and such.

A spiral ramp from the ground up the almost entire dropship could exist, if you want the dropship to work like a parking garage.  But elevator/lifts from each side hatch can be just as fast and reclaim all that space.  Also, mechanically/game rules, all doors get you to the ground.  It would be very different if only 1 door had ground access, as yeah like a parking garage you will need to design lanes and room to turn and spiral up and down, and traffic inside the bay is a huge issue.  But since all doors work, that changes the need for a spiral ski slope and greatly increases packing efficiency because any of the many doors get you out.  No need to design around all bays needing a clear central running track that must be kept open/wasted space.

For storage, I have subfloor storage.  I'm thinking of auto repair bays, where under the floor is space that slides open/closed.  Also super important for accessing stuff if the mech is laying down.  So the cargo/munitions are stored under your feet.  The roof is a ceiling track mounted lift, so if you need a 30 ton brick of cargo from the hold, you swing a mech lift over and raise it up.  Most cargo is lighter, cause its not like the union carries a lot, but mech repair tools and kits and all that is all kept underground, and slides up when needed. Importantly, the sub floor storage also keeps all the loose crap contained when in space so nothing flys around your bay putting holes in things when thrust changes.

For aerofighter bays, my current design is the space shuttle arm, for deploying satellites.  The door opens, and in place of a lift an arm goes out and grabs the fighter, or the fighter being launches taps the thrust a little and slides free of the arm into free flight.  The arm would work under gravity only because myomer already exists and is in use on mechs, meaning we can expect the arm to be able to hold 100 ton fighters.  If not for myomer, it would be limited to zero G only.  This is backed up by the pictures of the real life aircraft-aircraft carrier, which grabbed and launched planes stacked up from an internal hold.  I also would likely stack the fighters, cause the mech bay needs like 15m of height clearance, enough for 2 fighter stacks, on on top of an elevator and one in the middle.  The stack would explain why the aerodoors are narrow and higher up, as the first fighter launches, and the elevator goes up and the second fighter launches out the same door.

[Daryk]

I thought there were two ASF doors?

[Wrangler]

This maybe more scale than other pictures, From TRO 3039 size comparison chart