Author Topic: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder  (Read 38796 times)

Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #360 on: 19 November 2024, 16:18:17 »
One thing comes to mind is Operation Klondike. The Adders were paired with the Bears, Spirits and Vipers. Truscott had the lead of this invasion (most likely for being a very close confidant of Kerensky. Wasn't he also something of "first among equals" among the Khans?). The book make it sound as if he wanted to lead this and as soon as he died in the first battle the "unity" broke or was hold together by spit ands bailing wire (until the Spirits managed their role as the Clan of esprit de corps and mended the animosities between the Bears and Adders). Also I just remembered another small tidbit: in WoR there was a report from a Goliath Scorpion historian who wrote about the battle for waypoint 731 and an annotation was "Don't make an epic story out of this report. We are NOT Clan Star Adder" Almost feels like as if the Adders are known for "poetic battle reports". Perhaps something of a vainglorrious Clan themselves. It's kind of strange considering they are supposed to be the Clan with the most planning skill in terms of strategy (making them also sound rather serious and humorless). Why then this turn to "glorified history"?
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tassa_kay

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #361 on: 19 November 2024, 19:18:18 »
But I'm really not sure how the Adders thought it would work.

Despite his reticence to speak it aloud at the Grand Council when the moment came, Cassius explained in his internal monologue exactly how they thought it would work: with them in charge of things.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #362 on: 20 November 2024, 06:31:41 »
Despite his reticence to speak it aloud at the Grand Council when the moment came, Cassius explained in his internal monologue exactly how they thought it would work: with them in charge of things.

Right, that I get. The scene does a good job of showing how the Adder Khan thought the invasion should be conducted. That's the big insight it reveals with nearly 100% clarity.

The question put to me, that I responded to, was how the Adders would have/could have set the stage for Cassias N'Buta's speech to actually go WELL. Instead of laughter, he gets applause. Instead of faltering in the moment he decides to speak of his Clan's role in all this, he gets a positive reaction from the Khans.

The question was a speculative one. What could/should the Adders have done to set the stage for that alternate reality of events. And my response was me saying I'm honestly not sure.

tassa_kay

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #363 on: 20 November 2024, 08:14:07 »
The question was a speculative one. What could/should the Adders have done to set the stage for that alternate reality of events. And my response was me saying I'm honestly not sure.

I can't say that I see any reality in which the Adders call the other Clans players in an orchestra that they alone should be conducting and aren't laughed at in response, but I think the only way for this stage to be set would've been for the Adders to have been out there putting their proverbial money where their mouth is when it comes to building Clan unity. Again, ironically and tragically, doing what the Spirits themselves once tried to do before giving up on the other Clans. And the problem is that the Adders have simply never been shown to operate in anything except their own self-interest.

WoK tells us that the Adders have long sought neutrality with the other Clans, but that their apolitical stance and alleged coddling of their civilians are why the other Clans look down on them. FMCC tells us that the Adders' perceived timidity (and what was Cassius' failure in his moment to speak up if not that?) and honorless methods of fighting are mocked not only by the other Crusader Clans, but even some of the Wardens. So I'd say at bare minimum, the Adders would have to do something about these perceptions first.

Now WoR tells us in Stanislov N'Buta's bio that he and his predecessors (of which Cassius was the most immediate) saw that the path to true power in the Homeworlds lay not in force of arms but in applying steady pressure as stalwart support, and we saw the Adders actually doing this in the Wars of Possession (when they got involved in the Cobra/Viper conflict on Homer, as well as their applying pressure in the Grand Council when they couldn't position who they wanted as ilKhan) and the Wars of Reaving as part of the Snake Alliance. But we never saw this sort of behavior before this point.

Personally, I think it makes perfect narrative sense that things unfolded the way that they did: the Adders were snubbed during REVIVAL because they were perceived (correctly so, IMO) as self-interested and timid, resolved they'd become the big fish in the small pond back home and bring about the downfall of the invading Clans because they weren't handed the reins, got an unexpected stroke of luck with the Burrock Absorption, learned the art of putting the snake squeeze on their enemies by doing it to the Blood Spirits on York, finally started learning how to build political coalitions and apply political pressure during the post-Great Refusal Wars of Possession with the formation of the Snake Alliance, and then wielding that newfound political power with the same self-interest they've always shown by repeatedly cockblocking Grand Council votes they actually wanted to see happen because they weren't being voted into power. Then when the Vipers did manage to take the ilKhanship with Adder support, they let the Vipers do all the heavy lifting of Reaving... and when they felt they had the opportunity to do so, they got rid of the Vipers as their biggest rivals and the Spirits as their most hated enemies, finally securing the power they'd always wanted for themselves and holding onto it by applying pressure where needed.

One might even say that the Adders have the Homeworlds wrapped up in their coils, having achieved the Clan unity they claimed they always wanted to achieve by destroying or driving away all of their enemies and controlling the fates of those few Clans that remained by enforcing a policy of strict and violent isolation for going on decades now. If only those wrongheaded other Clans had just listened to them, things would be different and the Inner Sphere would've been subjugated under their collective, combined toumans and the Star League would've finally been restored.
« Last Edit: 20 November 2024, 09:08:03 by tassa_kay »
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Alan Grant

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #364 on: 20 November 2024, 08:58:33 »
I feel like we've largely exhausted that topic, so shifting gears.

I just noticed something. In FM: CC in Rho Provisional Galaxy we have Star Colonel Kenneth Hutchinson as a notable officer. Labeled a "Rare breed" because he was fascinated with conventional vehicles and chose to serve with the solahma so he could work with vehicles. During the Burrock Absorption he and his 94th Scales hovercraft cluster accounted for 43 Blood Spirit 'mech kills.

I had always assumed that he and his Cluster were Adder in origin. We know conventional armor/infantry solahma clusters are attached to the second-line Adder Galaxies.

But it just hit me that Hutchinson is a Burrock name, now exclusive to the Adders.

Was Hutchinson a Burrock? Was the 94th Scales a Burrock Cluster?

I'd never thought about it that way before but now I'm wondering if I made a bad assumption. It's particularly relevant info because I know I've seen over the years quite a few Clan fans try to identify every piece of canon Burrock info we have, including unit names like Cluster names. So now I'm wondering if we can put "Scales" as a possible Burrock Cluster naming convention. Perhaps for Burrock solahma or conventional armor units.

Its very possible others have already addressed this and I'm just late to this observation.

tassa_kay

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #365 on: 20 November 2024, 09:14:45 »
Was Hutchinson a Burrock?

Yes. WoR specifically calls Kenneth a "former Burrock" on page 88 of WoR.

Quote
Was the 94th Scales a Burrock Cluster?

Unclear, actually. The wording in its description almost seems to refer to it in the present tense ("Hutchinson and his Ninety-Fourth Scales have proven time and again...").

Plus, and I don't think anyone has noticed this, but... where is Kenneth Hutchinson's unit in FM:CC's roster? He's mentioned in Rho's entry but none of Rho's Clusters (or any other Clusters in the Adder touman) have him listed as CO.

Does this mean the 94th Scales is a missing Adder unit that should be included in Rho's listing? It's a shallow reason, but "Scales" could imply the scales of an adder. I'm personally inclined to believe that the 94th Scales is a Burrock unit that maybe got Absorbed wholesale by the Adders, but the question has to be asked.

Crack Theory: "Scales" is a designation used for a vehicle Cluster, which we know from FM:CC would be rare for the Adders anyway because they only really fielded vehicles in garrison Galaxies.
« Last Edit: 20 November 2024, 09:21:16 by tassa_kay »
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #366 on: 20 November 2024, 10:39:44 »
Kenneth Hutchinson is also noteable for issuing a Trial of Refusal when the Adders decided that every Burrock abtaka had to undergo a new Trial to keep being a warrior in the Adder touman after they had found out that the Burrocks had returned. Hutchinson argued that the absorbed Burrocks had already undergo two Trials (their own initial Trial of Position and then another to become a warrior in the Adder touman). He and Loremaster Daniels dueled and Hutchinson fought in a Mars against the loremaster's Warhawk. The duel took 3 Hours and the Loremaster won by the dint of loosing his Mech after Hutchinson's Mars failed
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Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #367 on: 20 November 2024, 11:49:44 »
In FM: Update Kenneth Hutchinson is Galaxy Commander of Rho Galaxy.
He also was the commanding officer of the Tanite worlds garrison (then Rho Galaxy was the garrison). He did help and supports the Burrock rebels.

Probably he died in his Trial against Adder Loremaster Fletcher Daniels.

Both Clans Star Adder and Burrock named their conventional clusters Scales. They are not listed in any  To&E.

Back to Cassius N`Buta.
I think if he had tried to call back Operation Klondike and how all Clans fought there.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #368 on: 20 November 2024, 14:20:33 »
We know the Adders have 2-3 solahma infantry and/or vehicle clusters attached to each second-line Galaxy, according to FM: CC. These aren't shown as line units in the Cluster listings in FM: CC. They only show the clusters that have 'mechs/BA/ASFs.

These vehicle/infantry units are almost treated like support units in a sense. You know how each FM doesn't display the support units? Engineers, medical, etc. They are almost treated like that. They are there but not displayed in force assessments like what the Field Manual represents.

@Gaiiten where does it say that both the Adders and Burrocks used Scales as a cluster name? That's news to me.

EDIT: Found something useful. According to FM: CC page 119, quote:

Gatekeeper Clusters: These are Clan Star Adder's solahma
units. Seven currently operate with BattleMechs in the
Provisional Galaxies. Additional Clusters operate with vehicles or
as standard infantry. These Clusters do not contain any
Elementals, though aerospace fighters are usually present in
standard numbers.


So I wonder if that means all of Star Adder's vehicle/infantry units are named Gatekeeper. Or if that's only referencing the ones with BattleMechs. If it is referencing all of them, even the vehicle/infantry clusters. I wonder then if that's further proof that Scales is just a Burrock unit designation.

The implication would be that the reference to the 94th Scales Cluster is a reference to Kenneth Hutchinson's previous command during his time as a Burrock. Not his current unit. It could be a past reference, and his 94th Scales might have been since renamed to a Gatekeeper Cluster.
« Last Edit: 20 November 2024, 14:29:20 by Alan Grant »

tassa_kay

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #369 on: 20 November 2024, 15:30:39 »
In FM: Update Kenneth Hutchinson is Galaxy Commander of Rho Galaxy.
He also was the commanding officer of the Tanite worlds garrison (then Rho Galaxy was the garrison). He did help and supports the Burrock rebels.

I think the writer really missed an opportunity by not having more of the Burrock-swollen Adder touman rebel against their new Clan, and I feel like Rho was right at the top of that list. The fact that it was massively understrength after the Absorption, and that it was Burrock-specific things (the elevation of a former Burrock to Galaxy Commander, the introduction of the Burrock Mech, etc) that led to its improvement, tells me that Rho was lousy with discontent ex-Burrocks.

So I wonder if that means all of Star Adder's vehicle/infantry units are named Gatekeeper. Or if that's only referencing the ones with BattleMechs. If it is referencing all of them, even the vehicle/infantry clusters. I wonder then if that's further proof that Scales is just a Burrock unit designation.

The way it reads to me is that the Gatekeeper designation is for all of their solahma units (as that is what's specifically called out in their descriptor), and that seven of these Gatekeeper Clusters are BattleMech-equipped. Granted, there are only seven Gatekeeper Clusters on the Adder rolls period, but that could be because the non-Mech Gatekeeper Clusters are part of the two/three Clusters of conventional vehicles and infantry assigned to each of their PGCs that aren't otherwise listed on the rolls, like you mentioned plenty of other Clans also do.

The implication would be that the reference to the 94th Scales Cluster is a reference to Kenneth Hutchinson's previous command during his time as a Burrock. Not his current unit. It could be a past reference, and his 94th Scales might have been since renamed to a Gatekeeper Cluster.

I agree with this assessment, and it's likely we'll get a solid answer on this one when the Burrock Absorption book comes out.

Maybe then we'll be able to see where Kenneth Hutchinson's mystery Cluster circa FM:CC actually is. It's funny to me that both the Adders and the Spirits have a Cluster mentioned in FM:CC that isn't actually on their rolls anywhere (the 29th Blood Drinkers for the Spirits, and Kenneth's command for the Adders).
« Last Edit: 20 November 2024, 15:45:27 by tassa_kay »
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #370 on: 20 November 2024, 16:09:25 »
I think the writer really missed an opportunity by not having more of the Burrock-swollen Adder touman rebel against their new Clan, and I feel like Rho was right at the top of that list. The fact that it was massively understrength after the Absorption, and that it was Burrock-specific things (the elevation of a former Burrock to Galaxy Commander, the introduction of the Burrock Mech, etc) that led to its improvement, tells me that Rho was lousy with discontent ex-Burrocks.

The writers made it somewhat lazy: the Adders just transfered all Burrock malcontents into Upsilon Galaxy with a few Adder loyalist and then gave them carte blanche to roam the Periphery (presumably to collect data but also raid isolated Clan convoys) Then when the Burrocks revolted the entire Galaxy shed theirt skin so to speak. As you said it would have been more interesting if several fights erupted within some of the Adder Galaxies. From what I understand is that the majority of the Burrocks just "rolled over" and only after the absorption became it clear what kind of trouble the Adders had taken in. A good portion was calmed by fighting against the Spirits and also a quasi totem Mech (the Burrock)
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tassa_kay

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #371 on: 20 November 2024, 19:55:46 »
The writers made it somewhat lazy: the Adders just transfered all Burrock malcontents into Upsilon Galaxy with a few Adder loyalist and then gave them carte blanche to roam the Periphery (presumably to collect data but also raid isolated Clan convoys) Then when the Burrocks revolted the entire Galaxy shed theirt skin so to speak. As you said it would have been more interesting if several fights erupted within some of the Adder Galaxies. From what I understand is that the majority of the Burrocks just "rolled over" and only after the absorption became it clear what kind of trouble the Adders had taken in. A good portion was calmed by fighting against the Spirits and also a quasi totem Mech (the Burrock)

That's the thing, though... not all the malcontents were in Upsilon. Rho Galaxy pretty specifically had problems of its own until the Adders made them feel special with a new secondline Mech and promoting Kenneth Hutchinson to Galaxy Commander. And still, you'd think the Adders of all Clans wouldn't repeat the mistakes of the Dragoon Compromise.
« Last Edit: 20 November 2024, 20:00:51 by tassa_kay »
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Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #372 on: 23 November 2024, 14:23:45 »
It is interesting that the ex-Burrocks in Upsilon Galaxy were rather up to revive their old and disgraced Clan than use the chance to prepare for an attack on the Inner sphere. They would have been the spear`s point and the first.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #373 on: 23 November 2024, 16:18:21 »
Do you mean without orders or with orders?

In other words, with the permission of the Clan or by going rogue.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #374 on: 23 November 2024, 17:42:31 »
They had permission to raid the IS periphery borders. Also, they hit the Horses on their forward base on Noveaux Paris and relayed their findings to the Adder leadership. I think in FM 3067 or WoR there is a mention or rather confusion why N'Buta entrusted the malcontents of the Adders with a mission that could only bring glory (attacking the IS). Was this perhaps placating the die hards while hoping they would get themselves killed way out there? I mean might be a win-win: gathering information, the malcontents can't poison the rest ofg the Clan (though somebody did not calculate the influence of the Tanis System Upsilon used as staging base) and if they are destroyed, well, shit happens.
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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #375 on: 23 November 2024, 18:46:41 »
I think it's funny that with everything that happened with Upsilon, the Adders actually risked pulling the same trick twice by sending off a bunch of Aggressor agitators to fight the Hansa and bleed some internal pressure. You'd think that they might be a wee bit more cautious doing that now.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #376 on: 24 November 2024, 08:46:38 »
I would agree that it's funny/ironic.

But I recall reading that they were having a problem with younger warriors challenging older warriors in order to earn honor and glory and just to give them something to do. The Clan's leaders are generally going to be those older warriors, more or less. Not just the Khans, talking the officer corps in general, not to mention a lot of the Clan Council. 

So what I read out of this is like "I feel like I have a big target on my back, this is getting ridiculous and out of control. Khans, Clan Council, DO SOMETHING!"

And that's what they did. They gave at least some of those younger warriors something to do that would make it harder to stumble into a Trial of Grevience with an older warrior.

That's certainly not the whole of it. But I think it was part of it. That could be perceived as an almost desperate decision. I've seen plenty of real world parents give their frustrating/annoying child a task, a thing to do, out of sheer exasperation, just to get the child out of the parent's hair so the parent can breathe and have a quiet break. Similar thought process and an equally emotional one, rather than logical. But even worse because in this case the child is actually a Clan warrior who may kill you.
« Last Edit: 24 November 2024, 08:48:11 by Alan Grant »

Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #377 on: 24 November 2024, 17:10:16 »
The biggest problem for the Adders is also that they are the by far biggest Clan. Trialing against the other Clans might be something to let their hot shots vent steam but other Clans might just begin rising the trial stakes so high the Adders might not be able to issue trials. And if all clans unite against them..well the Vipers are a good example of that. Feels kind of like the Combine during the Star League when the Council issued the disarmament edict under Michael Cameron. first they fight among themselves in honor duels then they take on outsiders. Only difference is that the Star League accepted the challenge (though more for political reasons) and therefore gave the Combine ronin an opportunity to vent their frustrations)
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Remember: retreat hell!

Gaiiten

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Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #379 on: 04 December 2024, 14:37:50 »
Given Upsilon Galaxy and the Burrock mutiny, I beleive this would be a good story for the upcoming WoR novels.
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