Average Unit weight

[imperator]

What is the new average weight of the combat vehicles and mechs and what tech level are they during the Jyhad and after?  I know that it does vary between houses and units, so lets limit this discussion to Militia units and general line (ie yo average mech regiment or mercenary). In the the '25s to '30s it was about 45 tons for Mechs and about the same for tanks. I think that the unit averages have now moved the average tonnage to about 75t.  Also I see a lot of SL+ tech going around.

[Stormfury]

The average is still going to be medium.

Characters in books (and the units we as players prefer to use) are not reflective of the wider universe. While you can't open a novel without tripping over major characters in Atlases or whatever, the reality is that those units exist only in small numbers.

[imperator]

For some reason, I still get that the average weight has shifted upwards as well as the tech levels.  Most of units that survived in the Field report are at least 50% upgrade with a lot being 75%+. They don't put down the Weight of the unit anymore, at least in the field reports.

[Neufeld]

75t?! No, way. Not even Lyrans and Coyotes would have that high average.

My guess would be 55-60t average, with the majority being medium and heavy designs.

[Nahuris]

I went over the TRO's and noted that the Heavy category is the fastest growing category in the game.....but not excessively so..... as a lot of those heavy mechs are far more specialized (Yeoman anyone?) .....so while I'll argue that 75T is a bit high...... I do think that the average overall weight would be somewhere in the 60 - 65 ton area..... whereas in the 3025 era, it was closer to 45 - 50.

The thing that I noted as interesting, though is that the "support" mechs are the ones that seem to be getting bigger and bigger, for example, in 3025, for missile support, you had the Valkyrie, Whitworth, Trebuchet, Dervish, Catapult, and Archer as your major LRM boats  --- now you have the Yeoman, Salamander, and Viking --- 2 of which are now assault mechs. 
But, if you look at Battletech overall, right now, there is a push towards more specialized mechs, over the generic trooper designs..... as in, we are not seeing new Centurions or Enforcers (mechs designed for general combat), but we are seeing Bushwackers.... a mech specifically designed for long range support ..... or designs like the Light Ray.... which is a fast raider / flanker. 

The increased weight also made sense for another reason, most of the advanced tech that came out in the 3050 era favored heavier units ----- you needed the extra armor to protect XL engines, and larger frames to carry the ERPPC's or Gauss Rifles... but I think with the advent of some of the newer weapons.....such as the Light PPC, etc....  and especially as the useage of BV over tonnage for balancing games catches on...... I think we'll see the average tonnage start to drift back downwards.....

Nahuris

[snewsom2997]

Pre Helm Memory Core 40-55
Post Helm Memory Core 50-65
Post Clan Invasion 55-70

[Devens]

This biggest cause of the shift in unit mass is the increased praportion of 30 and 35 ton lights in the light units.   I would say that the average is prabably about 55 or 60 tons as their is tending to be an increase in the praportion of mechs in each catagory that is in the upper half of the range. 

In 3025 using the 30/40/20/10 split that is said to be average mech distribution and assuming a roughly even split of mech masses within the catagories we get an overall average of 50 Tons with the Lyrans being about 55 Tons due to them having extra heavies and Assaults in place of some of their light units.  The upward shift in masses prabably relate to about a 5 to 10 ton increase overall depending on house. 

I would estimate about 55 - 60 Ton average for most Houses, 60 to 65 for the Lyrans in the modern Times.  Most Lights tend to be in the 30 to 35 Ton range now and More Mediums are in the 50 to 55 Ton range in most houses now, with a slight increase in the praportion of 70-75 ton and 95 -100 ton designs in their respective weight classes in most houses. 

[VF1LAM]

When I collect miniatures, I log them into a spreadsheet that makes sure each unit averages out at 60 tons per 'Mech, vehicle, or ASF.

[Hellraiser]

If we go w/ quick & dirty math here...........

3025 Breakdown.

30% Light @ 30 tons
40% Medium @ 50 Tons
20% Heavy @ 70 Tons
10% Assault @ 90 Tons

Gives you at average of 52 Tons but that is also using the 30-50-70-90 figure which was common in some chart or book somewhere.  Though that 30 might have been 25.  But honestly I'd figure the average being closer to 45-50 tons myself.

Militias are known to usually be a bit lighter & older tech.

But no way its up to 75 tons.
Even the SLDF averaged out in the Medium range IIRC, just closer to the Heavy category.

My old Merc campaign came in at a Hefty 57 Tons average across 4 Companies of mechs IIRC, but we also had a very large # of 70 ton mechs.

[Fear Factory]

The average is still going to be medium.

Characters in books (and the units we as players prefer to use) are not reflective of the wider universe. While you can't open a novel without tripping over major characters in Atlases or whatever, the reality is that those units exist only in small numbers.

Agreed 100%.

[Demon55]

I would expect medium, but also you have to take the planetary government's budget into account.  Poorer planets may be leaning more in the light direction while richer ones may be heavier.

[imperator]

I can believe the 60-65 mark more than medium. In a lot of the scenarios that I've seen over the years plus the novels I read leads me to believe the weight shift. For those that are saying it's still medium, what are your sources?  The numbers I've seen posted plus my above examples are leading me to this conclusion. In the field manuals I saw a lot of Units( even Militia) go to the heavy end with more assault thrown in their. And the new field reports only mention Upgrade level, not Average weight. Can you name your sources please?

[Demos]

Average weight round about 55-60t.
60tons: This is a 20/30/30/20 ratio for the weight classes. While not mentioned this ratio directly, the sources stated an increase of heavy/assault production and deployment at the expense of light mechs. My personal bet would be a proportion of 25/30/30/15, resulting in an avaerage weight of 57 tons.

[imperator]

Average weight round about 55-60t.
60tons: This is a 20/30/30/20 ratio for the weight classes. While not mentioned this ratio directly, the sources stated an increase of heavy/assault production and deployment at the expense of light mechs. My personal bet would be a proportion of 25/30/30/15, resulting in an avaerage weight of 57 tons.

I would think with your formula it would be 20/30/35/15.  Which would up your Average as well, probably closer to the 65 range.  Which sources are you using?  And would the clans use the same ratio? The new field reports are vague to point of "whatever you want".

[I am Belch II]

I can see it being closer to the 50 ton mark, maybe at the highest being 55 tones. The most numerous mechs are the Medium mechs and the least being the assults. Going like this 25% for lights, 35% for med, 25% for heavy and, 15% for assults, on the largest of each mechs would be 61.75 tons, but it could also be 46 tons for the lowest of tonnage. 

[Stormfury]

I can believe the 60-65 mark more than medium. In a lot of the scenarios that I've seen over the years plus the novels I read leads me to believe the weight shift. For those that are saying it's still medium, what are your sources?  The numbers I've seen posted plus my above examples are leading me to this conclusion. In the field manuals I saw a lot of Units( even Militia) go to the heavy end with more assault thrown in their. And the new field reports only mention Upgrade level, not Average weight. Can you name your sources please?

The Bug 'Mechs are and were the most heavily produced designs, to the point that a "fluff-accurate" Company should average at least one regardless of affilitation. The Periphery states still have difficulty building heavier designs, and both the DCMS and AFFS prefer Lights and Mediums respectively.

Scenarios and novels tend to feature the better-equipped and luckier units as a matter of course; you don't tend to see too many novels featuring the Marlette Militia or whoever, and using flagship Regiments like the featured ones (10th Lyran Guard, Genyosha, Davion Heavy Guard, etc) as the baseline is really not going to be reflective of the wider State military.

The average weight has definitely gone up over the years; in the '20s I'd expect the average to be ~45 tons; at Jihad's end, probably something more in the 50-55 ton range, but due to the (supposed) preponderance of Bugs in-universe and with two Successor Houses and the Periphery either preferring designs in the Medium category or lower or averaging Medium mass or lower, the average just isn't going to get much higher than that.

[VF1LAM]

The only thing I ever knew about this subject prior to posting here was that the AFFS tended to be slightly lighter and the LCAF somewhat heavier.

I guess that the DCMS could be lighter also because of all the Panthers and Jenners, plus the Dragon is a lower-end heavy 'Mech.

And the Periphery doesn't have much in the way of heavy or assault 'Mechs.

[Stormfury]

FM: DC says the Combine still like Lights more than heavies, hates mediums, and has trouble getting too many assualts. Looking at the factories and commands they lost throughout the Jihad or in its immediate aftermath and what they were trying to build throughout, it's not a situation I forsee changing much, if at all.

[VF1LAM]

@Stormfury:  I don't have that book, but I would think that many Panthers and Jenners, plus many Dragons, would still yield a "medium" numerical average, even if fewer actual medium 'Mechs are included.  The DCMS might also have to do what the Free Worlds League military did at one point:  substitute heavies for assaults if they have to.

[Fireangel]

FM: DC says the Combine still like Lights more than heavies, hates mediums, and has trouble getting too many assualts. Looking at the factories and commands they lost throughout the Jihad or in its immediate aftermath and what they were trying to build throughout, it's not a situation I forsee changing much, if at all.

Even if the DC were not to field a single medium, their preference for lights, followed by heavies with only a few assaults will result in an average weight well withing the 'medium' category.

I'm also with you on the bug 'mech issue; the things are FAR too common in canon and still in production despite the introduction of a gazillion new designs.


Regarding the OP's question ('mechs have been addressed, not vehicles), canonically, the most common combat vehicles are in the 25-50 ton range (Scorpion, Striker, Hunter, Myrmidon, Vedette), with few relatively common larger units (Manticore, LRM/SRM Carrier, Partisan, Demolisher) and practically no lighter ones (I'm not including APCs or non-combat vees). VTOLs have a max tonnage of 30... So I'd say that the average tonnage of a combat vehicle (militia or regular) will be around 35-45 tons.

[VF1LAM]

I suppose it's settled then for me.  I think people here have convinced me that 60 is slightly high for 3025 play, maybe about right for 3050s play, maybe a little low for anything after 3050s.  I think I'm comfortable owning a reinforced battalion of 48 'Mechs that average 60 tons exactly.  I'll be able to play in any era that way... 8)

[Nahuris]

The Bug 'Mechs are and were the most heavily produced designs, to the point that a "fluff-accurate" Company should average at least one regardless of affilitation. The Periphery states still have difficulty building heavier designs, and both the DCMS and AFFS prefer Lights and Mediums respectively.

Scenarios and novels tend to feature the better-equipped and luckier units as a matter of course; you don't tend to see too many novels featuring the Marlette Militia or whoever, and using flagship Regiments like the featured ones (10th Lyran Guard, Genyosha, Davion Heavy Guard, etc) as the baseline is really not going to be reflective of the wider State military.

The average weight has definitely gone up over the years; in the '20s I'd expect the average to be ~45 tons; at Jihad's end, probably something more in the 50-55 ton range, but due to the (supposed) preponderance of Bugs in-universe and with two Successor Houses and the Periphery either preferring designs in the Medium category or lower or averaging Medium mass or lower, the average just isn't going to get much higher than that.

I'd agree with the novels and scenarios showing the better equipped or lucky forces... but it seems that they only fight other better equipped or lucky forces... and then when dealing with clan stuff, the rules change.

That's why I mentioned it spiking in the 3050's ---- to face the clans, a lot of the houses threw everything into heavier units...... however, after the Fedcom Civil War, and more especially, the Jihad and the advent of lighter weaponry, we'll see the average drop back down.
Some of the game changers I see coming are the MML's and Light PPC's --- with Magshots also starting some changes (I am expecting some new gauss weapons in the near future --- lighter than the light gauss -- maybe around 4 or 5 damage, and maybe even a couple different ones, with different ranges).

Personally, I'm looking foward to it.

Nahuris

[imperator]

Are there any cannon sources that mention Average weight of a company of mechs or tanks? Or basic compositions?  Once again I'm looking for the line regulars or militia. Are these really just running around with mostly lights and mediums withs only a couple of heavies thrown in?  If so why aren't there even more destroyed units?  If your facing WoB or Clan forces, then your basically just died( I'm assuming these same forces are only upgraded about 23-40%). Even clan second line light or mediums forces would tear apart the above force( assuming that 4 lights, 5 mediums, and 3 heavies).  Unless the clan where only fielding a star and WoB was only fielding a LV II. And what about the plethora of new and upgraded heavy/ assault Mechs and Tanks.

[A. Lurker]

It's tricky, really.

On the one hand, it makes sense that there would be plenty of light and medium units around; they're cheaper and presumably easier to mass-produce, so it's easier to fill the ranks.

On the other, the heavier stuff is the more impressive and is arguably what a large part of the target audience wants to read about and play with. I dare say that you'd find a lot more people who think assault 'Mechs are just cool than who seriously want to read about tension-filled Wasp vs. Stinger action more than maybe once. In short, I think how the universe is actually depicted in the books and published scenarios owes a good bit to plain old fan service.

But as that keeps happening the problem becomes that it becomes harder and harder in turn to convince anybody that the universe is not "really" like what they've been shown all the time after all...

[Ian Sharpe]

I always thought that the breakdown was 30/40/20/10 as far as weight classes went.  But at the same time, my chosen Liao unit explicitly averages to 70 tons in the field manual, and I tend to eschew IS light mechs for the most part.  I still view the average as being only medium or so, but wouldn't look at a unit that averaged 60 tons as being anything out of the ordinary.

[Hellraiser]

Are there any cannon sources that mention Average weight of a company of mechs or tanks? Or basic compositions? 

Average Tonnage ?   No, not that I recall.
There ARE canon sources about the breakdown of chassis & lance weights however.

It is canon that the chassis breakdown in 3025 was 30-40-20-10
It is canon (IIRC) that the Striker Regiment (Made of Light & Medium mechs) was the most commonly listed regiment in the SLDF roster.

Then we have the canon Lance Weights from the back of some sourcebooks.
Where the Lyrans get a heavier average but all other factions are listed at L-M-M-H-H-A breakdown or smaller.
Or the Clan Trinary chart where some 42% of all Stars are Light Stars.
Or the original MW1/BF1 tonnage charts where the average "Heavy" star was, IIRC, something like 215-280 tons.  (Note at all 60 tonners that would be 240 minimum and all 75 tonners 300 max)

Once again I'm looking for the line regulars or militia. Are these really just running around with mostly lights and mediums withs only a couple of heavies thrown in?

Yes.  And Militia are said to be "lighter & older"
Hell look at the 3025 Black Widows,  they had 4x 20 Ton Bug Mechs in that company and they were supposed to be "special".  They averaged out to LESS than 50 tons each.

Zeta Battalion has nothing under 50 tons but its also fluffed as specifically designed that way as a major assault unit.

  If so why aren't there even more destroyed units?  If your facing WoB or Clan forces, then your basically just died( I'm assuming these same forces are only upgraded about 23-40%). Even clan second line light or mediums forces would tear apart the above force( assuming that 4 lights, 5 mediums, and 3 heavies).  Unless the clan where only fielding a star and WoB was only fielding a LV II.

Uhm, they did, nothing stood up to the clans, or for that matter WoB, in the beginning.

And what about the plethora of new and upgraded heavy/ assault Mechs and Tanks.

What about the plethora of new & upgraded Light & Medium Mechs & Tanks as well ?

Average is still medium, just closer to heavy than the 3025 era where it was more in the middle medium.

I did a little breakdown of 3025 TRO designs as well.

Light - 12 Designs @ 345 Total tons for 28.75 Average
Medium - 19 Designs @ 895 tons averaged to 47.11 each
Heavy - 14 Designs @ 920 tons averaged to 65.71 tons
Assault - 10 Designs @ 855 tons averaged to 85.5 tons

Total = 55 Designs @ 3015 tons total for an average of 54.82 tons per mech.

And this is just by chassis weight, it doesn't even account for the fact that the lightest mechs in the TRO, the 20 ton "bugs" are FAR more common than the 3 largest mechs at 90-100 tons in terms of raw production #s.

The technical renaissance of the helm core increased production #s a lot but that bumped up average weight only a little.  Still, if you jump the average from 45 to 55 across the entire IS that is a heck of a jump IMHO.

[imperator]

Cool. That's what I was looking for.  Thanks.

[Devens]

30% Light @ 30 tons
40% Medium @ 50 Tons
20% Heavy @ 70 Tons
10% Assault @ 90 Tons

Light Average is 27.5 Tons
Medium Average is 47.5 Tons
Heavy Average is 67.5 Tons

Ovarall "Quick and Dirty"Average at 3025 Percentages is 49.5 Tons.

Actual Average can vary considerably based on the mass of individual units Actualy used.  Quick and Dirty assumes a uniform distribustion in each weight class.

[Hellraiser]

Light Average is 27.5 Tons
Medium Average is 47.5 Tons
Heavy Average is 67.5 Tons 

That would be the average of the 4 tonnage brackets.  (Assuming equal production)
What I listed was the average taken from one of the rule books for random tonnage generation.
Which is what I said later in the post and that I couldn't recall if it was 25 or 30 tons for Lights.