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Author Topic: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion  (Read 14977 times)

Suralin

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IS ProtoMech Rules discussion
« on: 28 October 2011, 00:16:02 »
So. I realize Protos are sort of the red-headed stepchild of Battletech, and this subforum isn't frequented much. But what the heck, I came up with these rules for IS Protos on a lark while the forums were down. Lemme know what you think, suggestions are welcome and I'll edit this if some good ideas show up in this thread.


Unofficial IS Protomech Construction Rules

As of 3090, the Inner Sphere has gained the ability to manufacture their own take on Clan Protomech technology. However, with the prevailing views dead-set against the invasive Direct Neural Interface technology that gives Clan Protomechs many of their advantages, IS factions have had to resort to a few workarounds. Conversely, the IS has a number of technologies available to it that the Clans do not use, or have not considered.



1) ProtoMech Type and Weight

As with Clan ProtoMechs, IS Protos can be anywhere from 2 to 15 tons, in full-ton increments.

IS Protomechs of all weights can be constructed using either the bipedal or quadrupedal (quad) chassis types. However, Glider ProtoMechs cannot be constructed with Inner Sphere technology under these rules.



2) Internal Structure

The Inner Sphere has more variety available to it as far as internal structure goes. While ProtoMechs are still far too small for bulky Endo-Steel construction to be viable, IS ProtoMech designs may make use of the following internal structure types:

Code: [Select]
Type Weight (% of max) Other effects

Standard 10% None

Industrial 20% None

Composite 5% Internal damage is doubled

Reinforced 20% Internal damage is halved (rd up); -1
modifier vs. crits

Primitive 10% +1 modifier vs. crits.


3) Engine and Motive Systems

As with Clan ProtoMechs, an IS ProtoMech's engine size is calculated by multiplying the Proto's max weight (in tons) by its desired run speed (in hexes). If the result is above 40, round the result up to the nearest multiple of 5. If it's below 40, multiply the result by 25kg to get the weight of the engine.

If the ProtoMech is a Quad, reduce the run speed by 2 for the above calculation.

The following engine types may be used on Inner Sphere ProtoMechs: Standard, Trimmed, Primitive, Compact, Fission, ICE, Fuel Cell. Don't use the weights from the Master Engine Table; instead, multiply the Standard weight by the following values:
Code: [Select]
Type Multiplier
Compact* 1.5
Fission 1.75 (Minimum 5T)
ICE 2
Fuel Cell 1.2
Trimmed (AU only)** 0.875
Primitive As Standard, but multiply
Engine Rating by 1.2 for
no benefit

*ProtoMechs with a Compact engine require four critical hits to the torso to disable, rather than only three.
**ProtoMechs with a Primitive engine function identically to those using a Standard engine.
***ProtoMechs with a Trimmed engine are identical in gameplay to those with a Standard engine, but the maximum equipment in the torso is now only a total of 500kg, or 1,000kg if the Proto is 10 tons or heavier. The Trimmed Engine is only available in the Vaults AU timeline.

ProtoMech engines do not have any integral heat sinks.

Jump Jets and UMUs are available for IS ProtoMechs, following the same rules as the Clan equipment of the same name.

IS ProtoMechs cannot take advantage of ProtoMech Myomer Boosters or Extended Jump Jets, having not yet miniaturized MASC or IJJs to the level needed. Similarly, Triple Strength Myomer is not available for ProtoMechs.


4) Gyro

Clan ProtoMechs get around the need for a Gyro by linking the ProtoMech's myomers and stabilization to the pilot's brain. Since the Jihad, however, the stigma in the Inner Sphere against Direct Neural Interface has been too great to pursue such research in earnest.

Therefore, IS Protos require a Gyro.

IS ProtoMechs from 2 to 9 tons use the same rules for determining Gyro weight as for BattleMechs, but divide the resulting weight of the Gyro in half. However, if an IS ProtoMech is 9 tons or less, has an Engine with a Rating of 50 or less, and does not mount Jump Jets, it only requires a quarter-ton (250kg) Gyro.

IS Ultra ProtoMechs use the same Gyro weight scale as BattleMechs.

ProtoMechs may make use of Compact Gyro technology. Heavy-Duty, Extra-Light, and Light Gyros, on the other hand, are far too bulky.


5) Control Systems

As the IS's ProtoMech control systems were kludged together from BattleMech and Battle Armor technology, they are significantly heavier and more unwieldy than the Clan systems.

On IS Protos from 2 to 5 tons, these systems weigh 500kg.
On IS Protos from 6 to 9 tons, these systems weigh 750kg.
On IS Protos 10 tons and up, control systems weigh 1000kg (1T).

Primitive control systems increase this number by a further 250kg.


6) Heat Sinks

The IS has not quite been able to copy the compact, lightweight heat sinks of the Clan ProtoMechs. Heat sinks on IS Protos weigh 300kg each, but otherwise follow the same rules as on Clan Protos.


7) Armor

Armor for IS Protos is 16.67 points per ton (1 point per 60kg) and can be bought per-point. Primitive Armor is also available at 11.11 points per ton (1 point per 90 kg), but is only produced for Protos in the Vaults AU timeline. Other armor types are not available for IS ProtoMechs.

Max armor follows the same limitations as Clan Protos.



8) Weapons, ammo, etc

All weapons must have adequate heat sinks to keep the Proto running heat-neutral. Additionally, if the ProtoMech is powered by a non-nuclear engine, it must mount a Power Amplifier, with its weight equal to 1/10 the combined weight of all energy weapons (excepting "energy" weapons that use ammo, like Chemical Lasers and Vehicle Flamers).

Apart from that, and the equipment tonnage limitations common to all Protos, IS ProtoMechs can mount whatever weapons and equipment the player so desires, including ProtoMech Melee weapons.

Weapon reference table:
Code: [Select]
* MG, Light MG (5kg/shot)
* Heavy MG (10kg/shot)
* Anti-Missile System (40kg/shot)
* the Light Rifle (50kg/shot)
* AC-2, LBX-2, Ultra AC-2, and Light AC-2 (20kg/shot)
* AC-5, LBX-5, and Light AC-5 (50kg/shot)
* the Magshot (20kg/shot)
* the Fluid Gun (50kg/shot)
* Mortar/1 (40kg/shot), Mortar/2 (80kg/shot), Mortar/4 (160kg/shot)

Most missile weapons are bought per-tube, just as with Clan Protos.

* SRMs (0.5T per tube)  (10kg/missile)
* Streak SRMs (0.75T per tube) (10kg/missile)
* MRMs (0.3T per tube) (4kg/missile)
* LRMs (0.4T per tube) (25kg/3 missiles)
* EnLRMs (0.6T per tube) (25kg/3 missiles)
* ExLRMs (0.8T per tube) (25kg/2 missiles)
* RLs (0.05T per tube)
* LSMs (0.25T per tube) (4kg/missile) (Vaults AU only)
* MMLs are not usable by ProtoMechs.
* HAMs (Vaults AU only) are not usable by ProtoMechs.
* VRMs (1T per tube) (25kg/2 missiles) (Vaults AU only)

Also available are:

* TBolt-5 (80kg/missile)
* NARC (160kg/missile)
* BattleMech Taser (200kg/shot)


Gameplay rules for IS ProtoMechs

IS ProtoMechs follow the same gameplay rules as Clan Protomechs, with the following exceptions:

- IS ProtoMechs operate in platoons of 4, not 5. The (as yet hypothetical) exceptions are Comstar, whose Level 1s would consist of *six* Protos, and the Marian Hegemony, whose units operate in groups of five.

- On the first or second critical hit of an IS ProtoMech's torso, its gyro may be hit on a roll of 5, when rolling to see if a torso-mounted weapon has been taken out.** One hit is sufficient to destroy the gyro, reducing the ProtoMech's top speed to 1 MP and disabling its jump jets.
** Exception: If the ProtoMech mounts a Compact Gyro, roll 1d6 a second time. On a 1, 2, or 3, ignore the critical hit.



Marwynn

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #1 on: 28 October 2011, 01:05:34 »
Looks good on the first pass, two things though:

1) I don't think the heavier Control Systems are necessary considering that the Gyros are already there.
2) The armour should probably be heavier per point.

I'd also suggest adding variant armour as the IS seems to like experimenting on that. Stealth or Heavy Ferro, etc. I was also hoping that physical attack weapons would be available as "Main Guns".

Great job!

Red Pins

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #2 on: 28 October 2011, 01:30:51 »
...Another one of these?   8)  Should I post mine?
...Visit the Legacy Cluster...
The New Clans:Volume One
Clan Devil Wasp * Clan Carnoraptor * Clan Frost Ape * Clan Surf Dragon * Clan Tundra Leopard
Now with MORE GROGNARD!  ...I think I'm done.  I've played long enough to earn a pension, fer cryin' out loud!  IlClan and out in <REDACTED>!
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Suralin

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #3 on: 28 October 2011, 14:00:37 »
Looks good on the first pass, two things though:

1) I don't think the heavier Control Systems are necessary considering that the Gyros are already there.
2) The armour should probably be heavier per point.

I'd also suggest adding variant armour as the IS seems to like experimenting on that. Stealth or Heavy Ferro, etc.

There are reasons I did what I did there. I wanted the IS Protos to be noticeably inferior to the Clan versions, so the extra quarter-ton for control systems factors into that.

As for the armor, having it be 20 pts/ton really helps as far as calculations go, particularly since Protos buy by the point. It's a nice round number.

The reason I didn't add in Stealth armor, Light Ferro, etc., was because I figured if even the Clan Protos can't get Clan Ferro on there, there's no way the IS would get any alternative armors on there that would require extra criticals. There *are* such things for Battle Armor, but the Clanners haven't adapted them for their Protos... Iunno, convince me.

Quote
I was also hoping that physical attack weapons would be available as "Main Guns".

That's a decent idea.

Upon further investigation, I found out there is a ProtoMech Melee Weapon in TacOps. That was handy.

Quote
Great job!

Thanks! :)


...Another one of these?   8)  Should I post mine?

Sure, go ahead.

Red Pins

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #4 on: 28 October 2011, 15:53:23 »
These are for the AU project I'm working on, "The New Clans: Volume 1".  These rules have passed the 2nd draft, only the final draft to finish.  It still needs a couple tables, like physical attacks.

EXTRA-LIGHT ‘MECH (ELM)

   Extra-Light Mechs can trace their development to Clan Surf Dragon, whose attempts to create an Infantry battlesuit from Labor Caste exo-skeletons were interrupted by the arrival of technical data and production samples of dezClan Wolf’s Elemental battlearmor.
   Because of the crudity of the original work, the project was abandoned in favor of the dezClan suit, and its resources turned to developing a larger, more robust unit capable of destroying an entire battlearmor Point.  A blend of battlearmor and battlemech technology, the Joint Development Program released the design specifications for their prototype Extra-Light Mech, the Novice, in 2868.
Expansion of the ELM concept has taken advantage of the continued refinement of the technology, with a series of designs between 10- and 19 tons being considered for increased emphasis to counter the introduction of the revolutionary ProtoMechs by Clan Smoke Jaguar.

Construction Rules
   The construction of ELMs closely follows that of BattleMechs, with some unique features.  Construction of ELM/PAMs follows the same construction rules for the standard ELM, except the removal of its arms and the addition of one critical space and 500 kg for fuel and avionics.  ELM/PAMs must also use the ‘Environmental Sealing’ of IndustrialMechs, to correct the deficiencies of the open cockpit.

Step 1:
   In Step 1, determine the Technical base, mass, and Internal Structure of the ELM.
·   Because ELMs are exclusively the property of the New Clans, a ‘Mixed’ tech base must be chosen.
·   ELMs range from 10 to 19 tons.
·   ELMs may not use Omni technology.
·   The Internal Structure of an ELM requires 10% of its total mass.  Because of the limited amount of mass, ELM Internal Structure is exclusively Endo-Steel.  Designers do not allocate critical space for the use of Endo-Steel; its slots are standardized and do no appear on their record sheet.
Internal Structure = [(mass of ELM) x 10%] / 2

Notes:
·   Due to size and mass limits, ELMs may not be quads.
·   Due to their size, ELMs are limited to only Shoulder Actuators.
·   Due to mass requirements, ELMs use kg in all mass calculations, similar to battlearmor.
·   Because of their small size, ELMs have smaller Critical Hit Tables; the head has 4 slots (with one slot for Cockpit, Sensors, and Life Support), each arm 5 slots (6 with the Shoulder Actuator), Legs have 2 slots (6 with Hip, Upper- and Lower Leg Actuator, and Foot), and CT has 2 slots.  (12 with standard gyro and fusion engine critical spaces.)

Step 2:
   In Step 2, install the engine, gyroscope, Jump Jets, Cockpit, and Special Physical Enhancements.  Designers planning to construct an ELM/PAM must use a standard fusion engine.
·   ELMs accept standard fusion engines, ICE, or power cells as engines.  All standard rules apply.  Engine ratings that do not appear on the engine chart must be rounded up to the nearest legal engine rating on the chart.
·   ELMs require the use of a gyroscope, and may use any canon gyro technology.  The mass of its gyroscope must be rounded up to the nearest value divisible by 5.
·   Only standard Jump Jets are allowable on ELMs; regardless of mass, each Jump Jet requires .5 tons/500 kg and moves the ELM one hex.
·   ELMs use a unique cockpit concept, the Open Cockpit.  An Open Cockpit requires 1 ton/1,000 kg.  The Open Cockpit is designed to provide a minimum of supporting equipment and complex electronics to the EWarrior.  Although it encloses the EWarrior (and protects him from the effects of Inferno missiles and bombs), the Open Cockpit is not watertight. 
·   ELMs are limited to Partial Wings, MASC, Stilts, and Detachable Weapons Platforms as Special Physical Enhancements.

Notes:
·   In contrast to a Battlemech, the head of an ELM provides only 3 slots; Life Support, Sensors, and Cockpit.

Check TM and TO

Step 3:
   In Step 3, assign heat sinks.  Because of the Open cockpit, ELMs must remain heat neutral.
·   If a standard fusion engine is used, designers must use the standard formula, Engine Rating /10 to determine the number of heatsinks inside the engine.
·   Because of their small size, ELMs use compact heatsinks.

Notes:
·   ELMs choosing to use other powerplants must allocate sufficient heatsinks to remain heat neutral, adding up to the total amount of heat possible for the ELM to generate.
Ex.  An ELM with an ICE engine, 4 jump jets, twin machine guns and a Medium Laser must have a minimum of 7 heatsinks.

Step 4:
   In Step 4, choose the type of armor and allocate it to the ELM’s six positions.  Because of their size and mass, ELMs use the Battlearmor method of armor allocation where each point of standard armor requires 50 kg.
·   ELMs may use New Clan Fire-Resistant armor or any of the canon armor types the ELM has critical space for.
·   Because of their size, ELMs may only use one armor type.  ELMs may use any armor available on the Available Technology Chart.

Notes:

Step 5:
   In Step 5, choose weapons and equipment.  ELMs may choose from either the Heavy Weapons and Equipment or Battlearmor Equipment Charts.  Battlearmor equivalents of the equipment on the Heavy Weapons and Equipment table may be used if the designer is willing to settle for the loss of performance.
·   Because of their small size, ELMs may not use CASE or CASE II.
·   If the designer chooses a weapon that exists on both charts, the one from the HWaE Chart must be used.
·   If the designer chooses a piece of equipment that exists on both charts, he may use the one from the Battlearmor Equipment Table if he is willing to settle for inferior performance.
Ex. The designer decides to add an SRM-2 to his new ELM - because there is a SRM-2 on both Charts, he must use the one from the HWaE Chart.  The designer decides to add an active probe – because it exists on both Charts, and the designer can choose to use either one.

Notes:

ELM/PAM Construction Rules
ELM/PAMs are a special type of unit; they maximize the benefits of both ELMs and PAMs and in any setting, they should never be anything other than an extremely expensive, hand-made, and unique unit.  These units require several unique rules, explained below.
·   ELM/PAMs must use standard fusion engines.
·   ELM/PAMs must use the IndustrialMech option, “Environmental Sealing”, to compensate for the use of an Open Cockpit and completely seal the EWarrior’s cockpit.

Game Rules
ELMs benefit and suffer from rules that help define their unique attributes, broken down into sections below.  Rules not specifically mentioned still apply, because it is impossible to account for every rule interaction and players are encouraged to find their own solutions.

Movement
·   ELMs move in Points of five, as Protomechs.
·   ELMs follow stacking rules as Protomechs.
·   Regular Piloting and Gunnery skills for ELMs are 3 / 4, reflecting their ease of operation.

Combat
·   For Line-of-Sight, ELMs are considered to stand one level high.
·   The open cockpit concept is unable to protect an EWarrior from deep water; ELMs may only enter Depth 0 water before flooding the Open Cockpit.
·   ELMs use the firing arcs of Mechs; because they are allowed only Shoulder actuators, ELMs may fire arm-mounted weapons into the rear arc.
·   ELMs may not fire when prone.
·   Damage is transferred in the same manner as ‘Mechs; from damaged arms and legs to the torso location.





        ELM Internal Structure Table
   ELM     Max         Internal Structure
Tonnage  AP  Head Torso  L/R Arm  L/R Leg
    10        58        3       10          2              6
    11        58        3       10          2              6
    12        58        3       10          2              6
    13        62        3       10          2              7
    14        64        3       11          2              7
    15        68        3       11          3              7
    16        68        3       11          3              7
    17        72        3       11          3              8
    18        72        3       11          3              8
    19        72        3       11          3              8
         ELM Hit
   Location Table
Die Roll
(2d6)
    2   Torso
    3   >Near Miss<
    4   Right Arm
    5   Right Leg
    6   Torso
    7   Torso
    8   Torso
    9   Left Leg
  10   Left Arm
  11   >Near Miss<
  12   Head
...Visit the Legacy Cluster...
The New Clans:Volume One
Clan Devil Wasp * Clan Carnoraptor * Clan Frost Ape * Clan Surf Dragon * Clan Tundra Leopard
Now with MORE GROGNARD!  ...I think I'm done.  I've played long enough to earn a pension, fer cryin' out loud!  IlClan and out in <REDACTED>!
Glitter - the herpes of the craft supply world.

Marwynn

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #5 on: 28 October 2011, 17:32:19 »
There are reasons I did what I did there. I wanted the IS Protos to be noticeably inferior to the Clan versions, so the extra quarter-ton for control systems factors into that.

As for the armor, having it be 20 pts/ton really helps as far as calculations go, particularly since Protos buy by the point. It's a nice round number.

The reason I didn't add in Stealth armor, Light Ferro, etc., was because I figured if even the Clan Protos can't get Clan Ferro on there, there's no way the IS would get any alternative armors on there that would require extra criticals. There *are* such things for Battle Armor, but the Clanners haven't adapted them for their Protos... Iunno, convince me.


Inferior Inner Sphere production capabilities would make the incredible Proto armour very difficult to produce. It's easy enough for the Clanners to do it, but the IS has difficulty making Clan-grade Ferro-fibrous or endo-steel.

Hence, the variety of armour instead. Stealthed Protos may be too much though.

Suralin

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #6 on: 28 October 2011, 21:26:09 »
Inferior Inner Sphere production capabilities would make the incredible Proto armour very difficult to produce. It's easy enough for the Clanners to do it, but the IS has difficulty making Clan-grade Ferro-fibrous or endo-steel.

Hence, the variety of armour instead. Stealthed Protos may be too much though.

Your argument makes sense. The problem with that, tho, is if we go with the standard 16 points per ton, it gets more difficult to buy by the point. 62.5kg/pt instead of 50.

I guess it could be rounded to 60kg/pt tho, and say the slight increase in efficiency is from the smaller size of the Proto (which is the fluff reasoning behind Clan Proto armor being such a noticeable improvement).

I still don't think the IS would be able to fit the other armor types on there, tho, given the limited critical space. The Clans can't get their own Ferro-Fibrous on their Protos, I don't see how the bulkier IS stuff would work.


As for the ELM fluff, it looks interesting, tho I'm not quite sold on trying to mount Battle Armor-scale weapons on it. Also, the size/mass preventing quad construction doesn't make sense, given that quad rules are now in place for Protos and Mechs alike.

It's definitely distinct from Protos, tho. More fragile, but faster, while being better armed and armored than Ultra-Lights (usually).

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #7 on: 29 October 2011, 14:52:15 »
ProtoMechs should have less surface area per unit mass than a BattleMech, so that should make armor for them cost less per ton - 60 kg/ton seems a good compromise.
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Red Pins

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #8 on: 29 October 2011, 15:07:47 »
As for the ELM fluff, it looks interesting, tho I'm not quite sold on trying to mount Battle Armor-scale weapons on it. Also, the size/mass preventing quad construction doesn't make sense, given that quad rules are now in place for Protos and Mechs alike.

It's definitely distinct from Protos, tho. More fragile, but faster, while being better armed and armored than Ultra-Lights (usually).

...A friend and I have been test playing them for fun.  They're ok with some of the other tech, like missile trailers.  Overall, my AU has a fairly high percentage of conventional infantry, and a couple of items are specifically to reinforce them.  Taken altogether, the ELMs fight Elementals and Protos, the infantry call for artillery, the light portable turrets fight Elementals and light vehicles, the heavy turrets deter Mechs and aircraft - the missile trailers scare everybody.

Nothing like a salvo from 4 tow vehicles with C3, towing 12 trailers each with 32 SRM/40 LRM/60 MRM.  And the ones with Mech Mortar/8s - I calculated the result of 16 trailers, once.  Even more scary.   :o
...Visit the Legacy Cluster...
The New Clans:Volume One
Clan Devil Wasp * Clan Carnoraptor * Clan Frost Ape * Clan Surf Dragon * Clan Tundra Leopard
Now with MORE GROGNARD!  ...I think I'm done.  I've played long enough to earn a pension, fer cryin' out loud!  IlClan and out in <REDACTED>!
Glitter - the herpes of the craft supply world.

Suralin

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #9 on: 30 October 2011, 04:35:40 »
I just posted a thread containing a half-dozen new (non-canon) weapons, most of which could conceivably be mounted on Protos.

Any more thoughts on the rules, construction-wise or gameplay-wise?

Red Pins

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #10 on: 30 October 2011, 15:35:41 »
...I like the light Plasma weapon.
...Visit the Legacy Cluster...
The New Clans:Volume One
Clan Devil Wasp * Clan Carnoraptor * Clan Frost Ape * Clan Surf Dragon * Clan Tundra Leopard
Now with MORE GROGNARD!  ...I think I'm done.  I've played long enough to earn a pension, fer cryin' out loud!  IlClan and out in <REDACTED>!
Glitter - the herpes of the craft supply world.

Suralin

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #11 on: 09 November 2011, 01:55:42 »
After some testing, I've come to the conclusion that the gyro would just take up too much room on smaller Protos. It makes Composite structure almost a prerequisite to get any sizable weaponry on there. So I'ma modify the rule slightly:


IS ProtoMechs from 2 to 9 tons use the same rules for determining Gyro weight as for BattleMechs, but divide the resulting weight of the Gyro in half. However, if an IS ProtoMech is 9 tons or less, has an Engine with a Rating of 50 or less, and does not mount Jump Jets, it only requires a quarter-ton (250kg) Gyro.

IS Ultra ProtoMechs use the same Gyro weight scale as BattleMechs.


...I like the light Plasma weapon.

Thanks. :)

Prince of Darkness

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #12 on: 09 November 2011, 20:14:34 »
I find the extra weight for the Heat Sinks to actually be a bad idea.  Proto's only use single heat sinks for dissipation, and there are no differences between IS single heat sinks and clan single heat sinks.
Cowdragon:
I'm going to type up your response, print it, fold it in half, and look at it like a I would a centerfold. THAT's how sexy your answer was.

Suralin

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #13 on: 10 November 2011, 01:16:37 »
Hmm. Think I should just make it the same as Clan, then? I do want the Clanners to have a bit more of a substantive advantage than just not needing a gyro.

The original reason I went with heavier sinks for the IS was because of the fluff. Take a look at the story in the TechManual, page 78:
Quote
Even we can make heat sinks work more efficiently than on BattleMechs when we install them on Protos, because their reduced volume makes the process quicker. But even so, the Clan sinks put all others to shame.

Now i agree, after some trial and error statting these things out, 500kg per sink does seem to be a bit much. I still don't think putting them on par with Clan sinks would make sense, fluffwise, but I could bump it down to 400, 350 or even 300. Thoughts?

Red Pins

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #14 on: 10 November 2011, 01:30:08 »
...Perhaps use compact sinks?
...Visit the Legacy Cluster...
The New Clans:Volume One
Clan Devil Wasp * Clan Carnoraptor * Clan Frost Ape * Clan Surf Dragon * Clan Tundra Leopard
Now with MORE GROGNARD!  ...I think I'm done.  I've played long enough to earn a pension, fer cryin' out loud!  IlClan and out in <REDACTED>!
Glitter - the herpes of the craft supply world.

Suralin

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Re: Unofficial IS ProtoMech Rules
« Reply #15 on: 10 November 2011, 03:34:28 »
I thought I already was...

I guess I'll bump it down to 300kg per sink. Still inferior to the Clans, but not to the point of being horrendously impractical. And it means less recalculating on the Huwei Quan I already posted.

Korzon77

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #16 on: 10 November 2011, 22:00:30 »
Well remember that the designers hadn't yet tried to build a proto-- you might be able to have clan level heat sinks is their dissipation is also related to the proto-size-- IE, it's going to have less in the way of big internal spaces that require more complex heat dissipation systems.

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #17 on: 14 November 2011, 18:45:21 »
After rereading the intro fiction to the ProtoMech section in Tech Manual, I'm thinking it might be a good idea to revise internal structure masses upwards.

Clan ProtoMech "Advanced Composite" internal structure is described as a cross between standard and Endo-Steel, and takes up 10% of the unit mass.  What about making standard internal structure on an IS ProtoMech, then, the 15% of unit mass, composite internals take 10%, and reinforced or industrial take 30%?  Yes that's especially a lot in the latter case, but I don't think it's necessarily too much.
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Snake Eyes

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #18 on: 14 November 2011, 22:21:08 »
After rereading the intro fiction to the ProtoMech section in Tech Manual, I'm thinking it might be a good idea to revise internal structure masses upwards.

Clan ProtoMech "Advanced Composite" internal structure is described as a cross between standard and Endo-Steel, and takes up 10% of the unit mass.  What about making standard internal structure on an IS ProtoMech, then, the 15% of unit mass, composite internals take 10%, and reinforced or industrial take 30%?  Yes that's especially a lot in the latter case, but I don't think it's necessarily too much.
That would probably work......

Suralin

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #19 on: 17 November 2011, 19:37:59 »
After rereading the intro fiction to the ProtoMech section in Tech Manual, I'm thinking it might be a good idea to revise internal structure masses upwards.

Clan ProtoMech "Advanced Composite" internal structure is described as a cross between standard and Endo-Steel, and takes up 10% of the unit mass.  What about making standard internal structure on an IS ProtoMech, then, the 15% of unit mass, composite internals take 10%, and reinforced or industrial take 30%?  Yes that's especially a lot in the latter case, but I don't think it's necessarily too much.

True, it makes sense from a fluff perspective. In this case tho, the Clans' "Advanced Composite" isn't analogous to the IS's vulnerable "Composite" internals, but rather the half-and-half "Endo-Composite", which would be too bulky for the IS to use for their part.

Could work I guess.

I'ma recalculate the two Protos I've already done, first, to make sure they're still (broadly) usable.

Edit: Ok, done. The respective threads have been updated.

I think the rules are balanced enough, now, so that IS Protos are viable but still rather inferior to Clan Protos. (i.e. two squads versus a Point would be roughly even.) Any more suggestions?

*Addition:* No suggestions by the 24th equals I go with the rules as they now are.

Maxxx

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #20 on: 18 December 2011, 11:46:05 »
Really nice rules. I am considering using these in my current campaign set in 3090. Since we have an alternate history where the jihad was way more devastating than in canon and is still raging on I am thinking about letting these be used first by WoB forces. Would you think that it is too unbalancing to let manei domini with VDNI use these machines without the need for a gyro?

Suralin

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #21 on: 18 December 2011, 19:30:41 »
Really nice rules.

Thanks! :)
 
Quote
I am considering using these in my current campaign set in 3090. Since we have an alternate history where the jihad was way more devastating than in canon and is still raging on I am thinking about letting these be used first by WoB forces. Would you think that it is too unbalancing to let manei domini with VDNI use these machines without the need for a gyro?

Not at all. I'd say fluffwise there *should* be the risk of an adverse reaction over time, like with the Clan Proto interface, only something else goes wrong with the pilot's mind rather than him/her going feral.

But I could definitely see the Wobblies pulling off the technology, if they'd been able to devote more time to it than in canon. Go for it. :)

SCC

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #22 on: 24 December 2011, 21:27:04 »
I don't think Clan Proto's should be all that much more powerful then IS ones, it's a new area for both power and the Clans shouldn't have that much of an edge

Red Pins

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #23 on: 25 December 2011, 00:13:16 »
 [blank]

...We're kinda stuck with it, it seems to me.  All that extra damage/lighter mass/smaller components add up.
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Clan Devil Wasp * Clan Carnoraptor * Clan Frost Ape * Clan Surf Dragon * Clan Tundra Leopard
Now with MORE GROGNARD!  ...I think I'm done.  I've played long enough to earn a pension, fer cryin' out loud!  IlClan and out in <REDACTED>!
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SCC

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #24 on: 25 December 2011, 18:43:36 »
I'm talking more about the proto's only stuff, it's a new area for both groups, Clan proto's shouldn't have a lighter skeleton, both them, and IS are working it out from the square one at the same time

Red Pins

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #25 on: 25 December 2011, 23:30:50 »
...Well, yeah, but the Jaguar Scientists did too - they first appeared against OP: Serpent, back in, what, 3058-3060 something.
...Visit the Legacy Cluster...
The New Clans:Volume One
Clan Devil Wasp * Clan Carnoraptor * Clan Frost Ape * Clan Surf Dragon * Clan Tundra Leopard
Now with MORE GROGNARD!  ...I think I'm done.  I've played long enough to earn a pension, fer cryin' out loud!  IlClan and out in <REDACTED>!
Glitter - the herpes of the craft supply world.

Maxxx

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #26 on: 30 December 2011, 09:11:41 »
Ok, we used these rules for a campaign game after christmas (my 6 players against a full WoB level IV unit in a series of 12 battles) and I wanted to give some feedback. Being the GM I used units using different modifications of your rules to see which felt most balanced/useful.

I will go through all the parts of the construction rules and give a few comments:

Internal structure: Since I view clan protomech structure as being as bulky as usual clan endosteel, I think it is a good idea to use endo-composite for the inner sphere version as it has the same size and it is nice in play to have some units mounting heavier weapons but suffering from composite structure.

Engine: Not much to say here since the rules are the same as for clan protos.

Gyro: Nice idea with the gyro. We used two modifications:
  • For quad protos with 9 tons or less, the gyro only weighs 200kg if the units mounts no jump jets and the engine rating is 50 or less.
  • WoB Manei Domini can have the gyro removed if they use VDNI

Control Systems: I think with the fact that weapons, structure, armor, and heat sinks being heavier already (or less effective) and the units usually have to mount a gyro, you do not need heavier controls. Alternatively we used the following item:
  • Advanced Controls: weigh as much as clan controls but us up one torso slot
  • Hard-wired Controls: only used by manei domini that lost limbs and are severly wounded. The pilot is essentially combined with the unit and cannot leave the machine and is killed if the torso is destroyed. Weighs a bit less than standard clan controls (450kg for normal, 680kg for ultras). (Essentially a warhammer dreadnaught for battletech  :) )

Heat Sinks: Worked very well with 300kg per HS.

Armor: We made some additions here. We used the idea that clan protomech armor is similar in bulk to clan ferro-fibrous armor and thus an inner sphere unit would have to use light ferro-fibrous, which comes quite close to the weight of 60kg per point. But we also used the following additional types of armors:
  • Laser Reflective Armor: Uses up one slot in torso, weighs 65kg per point.
  • Reactive Armor: Uses up one slot in each arm and one in the torso (for bipeds) / three torso slots (for quads), weighs 65kg per point.
  • Mimetic Armor: Uses up one slot in each arm and one in the torso (for bipeds) / three torso slots (for quads), weighs 70kg per point. If used on ultra protomechs needs a working ECM unit. (Does not generate heat, adapted from battle armor instead of void signature system)
  • Stealth Armor: Uses up one slot in each arm and one in the torso (for bipeds) / three torso slots (for quads), weighs 70kg per point. Always needs a working ECM unit. (Does not generate heat, adapted from battle armor instead of stealth armor)

We also used most of your weapons that are suitable for protomechs from the weapon thread and they all performed quite well. We had 6 different designs ( at 4tons, 6t, 6t, 8t, 12t, 14t) and they all contributed to combat but were all clearly inferior to a clan equivalent unit. Plus a few pieces of equipment like light ECM, light AP, light TAG, Proto-C3i to get the Wobbly feel.
« Last Edit: 30 December 2011, 09:17:38 by Maxxx »

Red Pins

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #27 on: 30 December 2011, 10:18:17 »
...Sounds like fun!
...Visit the Legacy Cluster...
The New Clans:Volume One
Clan Devil Wasp * Clan Carnoraptor * Clan Frost Ape * Clan Surf Dragon * Clan Tundra Leopard
Now with MORE GROGNARD!  ...I think I'm done.  I've played long enough to earn a pension, fer cryin' out loud!  IlClan and out in <REDACTED>!
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Maxxx

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #28 on: 31 December 2011, 10:56:47 »
It was...well I don't know about my players. From their reinforced mercenary regiment roughly 2.5 companies were in shape to walk off the battlefield, but it was the final battle of the campaign and taking a brief look at the possible salvage the unit should be well equipped for the future.

Suralin

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Re: IS ProtoMech Rules discussion (not finalized yet)
« Reply #29 on: 31 December 2011, 17:59:47 »
Wow. I honestly wasn't expecting anyone to use my homebrew rules! Or my homebrew arsenal! Awesome  O0


Your alternate controls and armor look pretty good by my reckoning. Mind if I integrate them into my rules? ^-^

Oh, and are you planning to post the stats for those six IS Proto designs? I'm just curious how they turned out :D